From jsoro620 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 00:52:41 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:52:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> Message-ID: <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide dog division has done that I find neat is that they've become a tangible resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand it, you can call a hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, etc. Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to be in a better position to help than someone who's been there? -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean that your family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a leadership position. That's not right, and I think we need to do some educational campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. Alll this talk of academic excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. Both have limits and one has an educational impairment along with it. We need to educate the people about mental illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic" twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean we are all experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My parents thought I was delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their lack of knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, but with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the best, such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home that won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. Beth On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > help them with. > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Joe and others, >> >> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. >> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a >> matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a >> good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to >> raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am >> alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When >> you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare >> legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that >> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether >> I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize >> that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some >> time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be >> solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. >> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that >> will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to >> believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything >> better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind >> or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other >> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in >> the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's >> or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we >> hadn't tried it. >> >> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >> having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our >> efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google >> self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? >> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I >> can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >> roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any >> affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time >> for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, >> but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a >> downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >> satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must >> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. >> >> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a >> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated >> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have >> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >> education. >> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With >> our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking >> for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart >> in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a >> risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of >> all members, though, to handle change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>> Arielle, >>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> Joe, >>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>> mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>>> mentoor. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a >>>>>> recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>>>> field, also national in scope. >>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>> professionals. >>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>> don't want >>>>>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>> you always had >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>>>> Technology has seen to that. >>>>>> Whether >>>>>> or >>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>> management to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, >>>>>> and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>>>>> at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>> greater our strength. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>> >>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capell >>>>> e%40frontier.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40 >>>> gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>> 0visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40 > comcast.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 01:18:21 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:18:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017301cf4d48$46163bc0$d242b340$@gmail.com> Steve, Excellent post. I can't respond point by point in a timely fashion, but I want to address something you mentioned. You wrote: "What you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change." I want to be clear that the downward spiral I'm referring to is the waning interest in the traditional grassroots movement. National conventions are no longer the sole means of catching up with old friends. You are absolutely correct that change offers its own set of challenges, but these challenges are completely independent of the membership core and basic organizational management. People are discovering they can use technology to make apps more accessible through direct contact with developers. The same petitions and social networking strategies currently being used to try to make headway on accessible technology in education are being exercised by other organized groups on similar issues out there. In other words, the NFB needs to keep itself a relevant force if we want it to stay a vital power, because you can replicate strategies, but you can't replace people. More to the point, how do you keep NABS graduates involved in the organization after NABS is no longer relevant? I really don't have an answer and am curious about ideas as to how this could be accomplished to see the organization through fifty more years of service. I agree with you that a lot of the organization's work is an exercise in risk, but when the well runs dry and the membership is fatigued, or to be quite frank, when the dedicated membership dies out, what then? Yeah, I think we fix some of our attitudes and biases. We replace some of the old guard with new blood, but is it enough? Okay, any more from me and it's going to seem like I'm raining on the parade even more than what I've already done. It's really not my desire to be the Debbie downer of the crowd. Yet I think the dialogue is good, and I wish more of these discussions were engaged with the general membership and not just in the safe confines of leadership seminars. Actually, other than a big-o history lesson and Maurer's take on different letters to the president, I don't know that my own leadership seminar taught me anything. So, I developed my own positions and opinions, and you see where that gets us. To be fair, maybe I'm just the stubborn dim bulb in the chandelier. When are we going to see the results of that membership satisfaction survey? More important, when are we going to see the action items that sprung from it? Kerri, Thanks for posting your positive experiences about the organization. My gloom and doom messages should always be balanced with very positive stories like yours. Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Joe and others, It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all members, though, to handle change. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >Arielle, >That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >Joe, >I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. >Sent from my iPhone >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >> drawings and the like. >> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >> could be a loss of programs and resources. >> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as >> a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting >> to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. >> However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain >> segments of the organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will >> say that I am not the most graceful blind person and was relatively >> unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. >> But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective >> members who have a negative experience to try again in a different >> chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But >> at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>> Hello all. >>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>> Thanks. >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>> mentoor. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joe" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> >>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to >>>> be in the company >>>> >>>> of >>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I believe >>>> too many people fall through the cracks when faced with reality >>>> outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>> >>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into >>>> listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for >>>> this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent >>>> issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, >>>> featured several articles just to the focus of generating more ways >>>> to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>> from whom >>>> >>>> I >>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>> >>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>> field, also national in scope. >>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>> >>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>> professionals. >>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>> will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but >>>> they shun the organization because they were turned away or because >>>> they were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I >>>> should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in >>>> the organization. I had too much of >>>> >>>> a >>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>> sustaining. >>>> >>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>> don't want >>>> >>>> it >>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>> banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >>>> organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>> >>>> to >>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>> Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks >>>> around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. >>>> >>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>> I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >>>> seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in >>>> our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do with even less >>>> money. Let that be a lesson in financial management to you. >>>> >>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of >>>> leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste >>>> the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the >>>> teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or >>>> not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you >>>> want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >>>> >>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>> be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt >>>> to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>> >>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksand >>>> efur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle% >>> 40frontier.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gm >> ail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 08:12:27 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 04:12:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, This is a great topic to converse about, and one I feel strongly about as someone who is going into a rehabilitation field. I have noticed for a long time that the NFB philosophy seems to be boxed in. That is, when we talk about it in our conventions, it is always framed as "The philosophy of blindness," when really, it is something anyone with any disability can follow. I've said that I'm going to strive to teach it to my music therapy patients, whether they are fighting cancer, adjusting to an acquired disability, or are otherwise chronically ill. Misunderstanding and misconceptions aren't just the problem with blindness, they're the problems with anything that is outside of the "norm," and I think we're doing wrong if we box it in to just talking about blindness. It does a great disservice to those with other disabilities who could benefit from it, as well as those who are blind with a comorbid disability. I am set to give a talk about visual impairment to an intro to music therapy class next week, as they are finishing a chapter in the textbook about sensory disorders and disabilities. Having read that book for that class last year, I know there are some things the book got right, and some things that I disagree with. It will be challenging for me to correct the misconceptions the first year students have been taught, but that is the same challenge deaf people face, and people with Autism Spectrum Disorders face, and people with mental illness face. I think that, although as the National Federation of the Blind we don't necessarily have a right to try to gain as much expertese on these other things as blindness per keeping relevant, but we can realize that our philosophy and ideals can be bigger than blindness, and can be even further reaching. I had a talk with a deaf guy last semester. He came to speak to music therapy club about deafness, and taught us some sign language. Since I couldn't see what he was signing, I was unable to grasp a lot of what he taught. Classmates next to me tried to help position my hands, but they were busy trying to do the signs themselves. I'll admit that the communication barrier between the speaker and I made me a little frustrated, so after the meeting I went up to him and explained my situation. I said that I had an interest in learning sign language so I could communicate with deaf people, but didn't know how to logistically pull it off. He taught me how to sign, "Sorry, I can't see you," so that I could first tell the deaf person I was blind (I didn't have my cane folded out when I was sitting at a desk for the presentation, so since he didn't see it he didn't know). Then he thought a bit about how the deaf person would be able to communicate with me, since if they were unable to speak themselves pen and paper wouldn't work. The best he could tell me was that the finger spelling would do the job, but at least I would be able to do the signing, which is more efficient. He said that would show the deaf person I had taken the time to learn how to communicate with them, even if they couldn't easily communicate with me, and at least I wouldn't have the frustration of tediously fingerspelling myself. It was cool, because afterwards he took a real interest in my notetaker and the braille display. It would be so cool if there weren't those separations between people with disabilities, and we could all work for a common goal. I know at conventions some deafblind people feel kind of left out, because all these blind people are whizzing past them and they can easily get disoriented in the crowds. I think helping the deafblind is a great start, but we do need to consider other disabilities, and combinations of disabilities with blindness as well. I don't know if I have an answer to how this can happen yet, but I think a big chunk of it is practicing what we preach. If we want sighted people to know the truth about blind people, and treat us as equals, we need to do the same for the deaf, those with Autism Spectrum Disorders and Developmental Disorders, and those with mental illness. Just my two cents worth... curious to see what others think. On 3/31/14, Joe wrote: > Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide dog > division has done that I find neat is that they've become a tangible > resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand it, you can call a > hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, etc. > Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer > assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to be in a > better position to help than someone who's been there? > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple > disabilities? > > On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean that > your > family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a leadership > position. That's not right, and I think we need to do some educational > campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. Alll this talk of academic > excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's > Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. Both have limits and one has an > educational > impairment along with it. We need to educate the people about mental > illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic" > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean we are > all > experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My parents thought I was > delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their lack of > knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and > later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, but > with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the best, > such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home that > won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. > Beth > > On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> help them with. >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. >>> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a >>> matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a >>> good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to >>> raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am >>> alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When >>> you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare >>> legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that >>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether >>> I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize >>> that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some >>> time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be >>> solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. >>> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that >>> will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to >>> believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything >>> better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind >>> or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other >>> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in >>> the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's >>> or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we >>> hadn't tried it. >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>> having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our >>> efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google >>> self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? >>> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I >>> can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >>> roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any >>> affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time >>> for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, >>> but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a >>> downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>> satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must >>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a >>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated >>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have >>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>> education. >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With >>> our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking >>> for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart >>> in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a >>> risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of >>> all members, though, to handle change. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>>> Arielle, >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>> Joe, >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>>>> mentoor. RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a >>>>>>> recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>>>>> field, also national in scope. >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >>>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, >>>>>>> and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>>>>>> at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>> greater our strength. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capell >>>>>> e%40frontier.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40 >>>>> gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>> 0visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40 >> comcast.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dandrews at visi.com Tue Apr 1 08:32:14 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 03:32:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Your Tailored Non-24 Support Program is in The Works Message-ID: >I am forwarding this for its informational >value. I know that this topic is controversial >in some circles, and others are supportive. Either way you should be informed. David Andrews >Non-24 Logo > > >We're here for you. >Call a health educator toll-free at >1-844-404-2424 to get answers >to your questions about >Non-24 seven days a week, >24 hours a day. > >Coming Soon - Non-24 tools, >tips and resources. > >Hello again. Thank you for signing up to receive >the latest information about Non-24, and for >supporting the blindness community. > >Since we were last in touch, we've finished >reviewing a survey filled out by over 500 people >who are totally blind and living with Non-24 >symptoms. We wanted to learn the types of >information you would find helpful and >educational in your journey with Non-24. > * 29% of respondents said that a guide to > help their doctor become educated about Non-24 would be helpful > * 25% opted for a tool that helps them know if they may have Non-24 > * 33% of respondents shared that websites > are the most preferred method to learn about > Non-24, followed by Braille print materials (25%) and Email (17%) > >Based on your insights and suggestions, we're >crafting a support program that provides what >you've asked for. When it launches, we'll reach >out to you first, so stay tuned! > >The Non-24 support program you helped design will feature: > * A podcast series featuring doctors who > have experience with Non-24 and its symptoms > * Interviews with people living with Non-24 > to understand the daily impact of its symptoms > * Tips, tools and resources for living with Non-24 > >And based on your feedback, we're also >developing a Guide to Understanding Non-24 for >you to share with your doctor. We heard you. We >understand that it's important that your doctor >understands the scientific reasons for Non-24. > >While we're putting the finishing touches on >your tailored support program, take a few >minutes to hear more about the latest Non-24 >information by clicking >News >and Events now. > >Use the links below to spread the word about >Non-24, and to raise awareness and support for the Non-24 community. > >Facebook Share > > >Twitter Share > >Email Share > > >Share >via Facebook > >Share >via Twitter > >Share >via Email > >Want one-on-one support? >Speak with a Non-24 health educator by calling >toll-free 1-844-404-2424. >We're here for you 24 hours a day, every day. >That's 1-844-404-2424. > >Get support at >Non-24.com. > >Don't want to get any more emails? We'll miss >you. Click >this >link to opt out of any further Non-24 information communications. > > >Vanda Logo > > >Unsubscribe >Terms >of >Use >Privacy >Policy > >2200 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Suite 300E Washington, DC 20037 >©2014 Vanda Pharmaceuticals Inc. All rights reserved. N240224 3/2014 > From dandrews at visi.com Tue Apr 1 08:58:08 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 03:58:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <725CB130F6C74DF4AE1549F3D1ED9393@MikePC> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> <8F1C7FD1-B3A4-4A98-9FB7-08C3F39E7E59@gmail.com> <725CB130F6C74DF4AE1549F3D1ED9393@MikePC> Message-ID: I don't want an extended ACB versus NFB bashing session here -- it serves no purpose. I will just say one thing Michael, no ones hands are clean here. We are not perfect in the NFB, and, over the years have taken shots at the ACB. However, I attended the ACB National convention, a few years back when it was in Minneapolis, and I heard a bunch of shots at the NFB, some from the main podium others from other places. I have also read stuff against us in the Braille Forum over the years. I think it would serve everybody if we just ended this here and now. David Andrews Moderator and List Owner At 04:25 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote: >as a member of ACB, peter, you are sadly mistaken, as most of you >NFB people are, you sit and bitch, bitch about how ACB is trash, how >ACB does this and that, as a proud member of ACB, we do not sit and >bash NFB, we dont sit and call your president a dictator, even >though my personal opinion, is that he is, how if someone doesn't >agree with nfb philosophy, you shun them and kick them to the curb >as if they are junk, calling people traders and the like to boost >your ego does not and will not achieve anything, you are the sad >depressed people who need to see the light or are you just to blind >to see the light? >Lets take a trip back in time if we may, to the year 2000. ACB held >there conference/convention in DesMoines. Durring the convention, >ACB President Chris Grey and other members were treated >pourly. Based on what I have been told,, you nfb people treated acb >like we were the plague. > >-----Original Message----- From: Jamie Principato >Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 4:05 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >This is exactly the problem I have with the way some within the >organization play the political game. The feud with the ACB is >nothing but a distraction. It's a tool to give a cub set of members >something to rally behind, because nothing says "I'm a dedicated >member of the in-group" like sharing a common out-group rival. > >And why do you need a computer with internet connection for >verification, simply to be a respectful individual and hear a >colleague's proposal? Stating that you run a company is not by any >means sufficient to scam anyone. And you can always check when you >get home if you're so inclined, but to turn them away entirely and >claim it is because your laptop isn't handy makes me suspect another >motive for turning away a member of the out-group. > >Sent from my iPhone > >>On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:47 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: >> >> >>Good afternoon everyone, >> >> I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone >> who runs from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in >> the way of serving in the organization but there are other ways to >> stay involved. People are only pushed to the side is they believe >> they are and don't find other ways to stay involved. They become >> lion prey rather than becoming or remaining lion chasers. >> >> The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills >> being offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just >> happen to be NFB members. My advice to such individuals is that of >> Judge Judy "Get over it!" If learning to use a computer, honing >> your Braille skills, becoming a better traveler will help you >> become more independent and create new career opportunities for >> God sakes except their offers of help regardless of whose camp they come from. >> >> As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members >> like to bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have >> been served notice from us that such conversations are off limits >> and they would do well to "Get over it" and that we're not >> interested in hearing it. On a few occasions we had several of >> them removed from our home due to the conversation getting >> out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them pay a $50 cab >> fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in this >> kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive proposition. >> >> On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource >> fair for those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at >> this event. Some of us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no >> time did we attempt to harm their display or interfear with their >> activities in any way. They did not return the favor. One year >> several of their members tried to knock over our table which had a >> number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president at the time >> should have had the backbone to notify show officials and have >> them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of >> these ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new >> company we may be interested in learning about. Since we did not >> have a laptop with an Internet connection present to verify his >> story or not we were unable to do anything about it. Had we >> searched for the name of his company and found no reference to it >> online it's possible we could have had him kicked out for >> promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we have no >> patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to >> promote a fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. >> The individual I referred to in this paragraph has served as the >> Alamo Council of the Blind's President. >> >>On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and >>services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program >>for example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an >>opportunity to ride in a car driven by a blind driver we're game >>for the conversation. Yes I know this is rather heavy-handed but >>there's some history behind why we've taken such a hard line with >>these people. It can be best summarized in a paraphraise of some >>words of a song by the late Stompin Tom Conners: >>"That there may never elsewhere be, >>Another Philadelphia tragedy, >>Another philadelphia tragety." >> >> The words above refer to an insident I and several other >> individuals were involved in during our 2001 Convention in >> Philadelphia Pennsylvania. Disagreements and philosophies among >> organizations of the blind helped lead up to this incident. Since >> taking such a hard stance against those who have nothing better to >> do than to run away from battles, sit on fences, etc there has >> never been another incident of that kind involving us. We had a >> close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took action >> prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to >> our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. >> >> Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to >> undermind our programs and activities in some states. Did anyone >> tell them that this is America and they're free to establish >> programs and operate them as they see fit instead of attempting to >> scuttle the hard work of others?They attempted to quash NFB >> Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the way the Newsline >> Program operates they're free to begin a similar program and >> operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The >> Braille Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. >> >> One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind >> community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid >> out to all potential partners for a program they're considering >> the criteria these partners will need to satisfy for consideration >> instead of feeling like they need to be all things to all consumer >> groups of the blind. Again this is America and we're a free >> enterprise society. If someone wishes to be considered to assist >> with a program or to help fill a need they need to meet the >> criteria for consideration. For example if a host agency decides >> that immersion training is to be used in the operation of a >> particular program or service anyone wishing to partner with this >> agency will need to endorse immersion training or they will not be >> considered as a venture partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner >> in the operation of a program or service offered by a blindness >> agency that chooses to use immersion training they'll need to over >> hall their philosophy and adopt immersion training as a viable way >> to operate a program. If they're unwilling to do that they will be >> filtered and would do well not to complain that they were left out >> of consideration and would do well to refrain from trying to >> undermind the activities of such an agency because they were >> unwilling to adapt their approach and philosophy to meet changing >> conditions and needs of the blind. Again we have no patience with >> losers according to our standards! >> >> As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be >> traced to the approach to career planning taken by many in the >> field including the NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable >> the job market has become yet we still tell people to go to >> school, get good grades, and you'll land that dream job when we >> should be taking it a step farther and urge blind individuals, >> parents, and educators of blind children to develop multiple >> income channels should something happen to your primary income >> source and so you will have the funds to support causes such as >> the activities of the NFB. We're currently working with the mother >> of a blind child in our area to encourage her to do this so she >> will be bettter able to meet her blind child's needs as she >> progresses through school and college and to have financial >> resources that will last her for her entire life instead of just >> 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high unemployment rate we face. >> >> And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and >> the refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach >> blind children and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane >> travel to name a few. The NFB needs to urge blind persons and >> parents of blind children to develop multiple income sources so in >> the event that a school district is unwilling to teach a blind kid >> Braille no problem. They can hire someone to teach them privately >> and perhaps provide a job for another blind individual. If >> necessary they could home-school their blind child and give >> him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public >> schools. Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person >> to attend one of our centers since we urged them and their >> families to create ,multiple income streams they could pay for it >> themselves and to Hell with the rehab system. The more financial >> resources you have at your disposal that you can control the >> better you can provide for your blind child or fund the training >> you yourself wish to obtain. >> >> We attend regular information sessions related to one of our >> ventures. Each week we see many college students at these >> meetings. They're heeding the advice of those telling them not to >> put all of their eggs in one basket. These young folks most often >> referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y for short understand the >> value of this advice and are creating multiple income streams for >> themselves should something happen to them or their career job. >> Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a part >> of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals >> should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need >> to become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons >> and their families to do likewise. >> >> >> Mary and I have been around professional networking for >> years. In the late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became >> very successful in a well-known direct selling business achieving >> an extremely high level of success. Back then there were no smart >> phones, no direct delivery of the products in question to his home >> as there is now, no Internet portals in which one can transact >> business, yet this individual and his wife built an empire using >> this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our accessible >> and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with the >> company in question to insure that this is so and they have >> greatly appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would >> think other blind individuals would have followed his lead in >> large numbers given the technology and services now available to >> those persuing careers in the direct selling industry. We find >> this state of affairs sad and shameful! This is something that can >> change in the years ahead. It's not too late. Anyone wanting more >> information about such opportunities is strongly advised to seek >> it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like the one >> mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread >> information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, >> false, and misleading. We're neither talking about your >> grandmother's business opportunity or NFB. >> >> >> >> If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs >> to change the advice it gives to its members and others with >> respect to career options and advise blind consumers to create an >> income to last them a lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to >> end upon skid row when those years are over. It needs to give the >> kind of career advice that will allow its members and others to >> have the resources needed to support its programs and to allow >> blind individuals to maintain a deasent quality of life. Now I >> believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. >> >>Peter Donahue From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Tue Apr 1 09:43:21 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 03:43:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multipledisabilities? Message-ID: Hey, Kaiti. Since I had mental illness diagnosed officially at nineteen, I had experienced some music therapy. I so wish I had become a music therapist myself, I wish I could give back to the disabled and so on. However, there's requirements that I could have never surpassed at Florida State, which later got sued for the inaccessible core curriculum and so on. WE know all about it. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Kaiti Shelton wrote: Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide dog division has done that I find neat is that they've become a tangible resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand it, you can call a hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, etc. Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to be in a better position to help than someone who's been there? -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean that your family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a leadership position. That's not right, and I think we need to do some educational campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. Alll this talk of academic excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. Both have limits and one has an educational impairment along with it. We need to educate the people about mental illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic" twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean we are all experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My parents thought I was delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their lack of knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, but with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the best, such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home that won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. Beth On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: Hi all, I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. Best, Arielle On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: Joe and others, It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all members, though, to handle change. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: Arielle, That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. Joe, I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: Hello all. This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. Thanks. Mike -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140401053543.01fbe468@comcast.net> Good morning, Kaiti, Growing up, one of my schoolmates, Corrina, had Usher's syndrom so was effectively deafblind. I remember it being difficult to communicate but still I am intrigued by deafblind communication. I'm sure you know tof an incredibly vibrant deafblind community. So, they have ways to communicate. More later... fir today, Car At 01:12 AM 4/1/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >Hi all, > >This is a great topic to converse about, and one I feel strongly about >as someone who is going into a rehabilitation field. > >I have noticed for a long time that the NFB philosophy seems to be >boxed in. That is, when we talk about it in our conventions, it is >always framed as "The philosophy of blindness," when really, it is >something anyone with any disability can follow. I've said that I'm >going to strive to teach it to my music therapy patients, whether they >are fighting cancer, adjusting to an acquired disability, or are >otherwise chronically ill. Misunderstanding and misconceptions aren't >just the problem with blindness, they're the problems with anything >that is outside of the "norm," and I think we're doing wrong if we box >it in to just talking about blindness. It does a great disservice to >those with other disabilities who could benefit from it, as well as >those who are blind with a comorbid disability. > >I am set to give a talk about visual impairment to an intro to music >therapy class next week, as they are finishing a chapter in the >textbook about sensory disorders and disabilities. Having read that >book for that class last year, I know there are some things the book >got right, and some things that I disagree with. It will be >challenging for me to correct the misconceptions the first year >students have been taught, but that is the same challenge deaf people >face, and people with Autism Spectrum Disorders face, and people with >mental illness face. I think that, although as the National >Federation of the Blind we don't necessarily have a right to try to >gain as much expertese on these other things as blindness per keeping >relevant, but we can realize that our philosophy and ideals can be >bigger than blindness, and can be even further reaching. > >I had a talk with a deaf guy last semester. He came to speak to music >therapy club about deafness, and taught us some sign language. Since >I couldn't see what he was signing, I was unable to grasp a lot of >what he taught. Classmates next to me tried to help position my >hands, but they were busy trying to do the signs themselves. I'll >admit that the communication barrier between the speaker and I made me >a little frustrated, so after the meeting I went up to him and >explained my situation. I said that I had an interest in learning >sign language so I could communicate with deaf people, but didn't know >how to logistically pull it off. He taught me how to sign, "Sorry, I >can't see you," so that I could first tell the deaf person I was blind >(I didn't have my cane folded out when I was sitting at a desk for the >presentation, so since he didn't see it he didn't know). Then he >thought a bit about how the deaf person would be able to communicate >with me, since if they were unable to speak themselves pen and paper >wouldn't work. The best he could tell me was that the finger spelling >would do the job, but at least I would be able to do the signing, >which is more efficient. He said that would show the deaf person I >had taken the time to learn how to communicate with them, even if they >couldn't easily communicate with me, and at least I wouldn't have the >frustration of tediously fingerspelling myself. It was cool, because >afterwards he took a real interest in my notetaker and the braille >display. It would be so cool if there weren't those separations >between people with disabilities, and we could all work for a common >goal. > >I know at conventions some deafblind people feel kind of left out, >because all these blind people are whizzing past them and they can >easily get disoriented in the crowds. I think helping the deafblind >is a great start, but we do need to consider other disabilities, and >combinations of disabilities with blindness as well. I don't know if >I have an answer to how this can happen yet, but I think a big chunk >of it is practicing what we preach. If we want sighted people to know >the truth about blind people, and treat us as equals, we need to do >the same for the deaf, those with Autism Spectrum Disorders and >Developmental Disorders, and those with mental illness. > >Just my two cents worth... curious to see what others think. > >On 3/31/14, Joe wrote: > > Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide dog > > division has done that I find neat is that they've become a tangible > > resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand it, you can call a > > hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, etc. > > Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer > > assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to be in a > > better position to help than someone who's been there? > > > > -- > > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > > > Visit my blog: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple > > disabilities? > > > > On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean that > > your > > family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a leadership > > position. That's not right, and I think we need to do some educational > > campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. Alll this talk of academic > > excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's > > Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. Both have limits and one has an > > educational > > impairment along with it. We need to educate the people about mental > > illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic" > > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean we are > > all > > experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My parents thought I was > > delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their lack of > > knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and > > later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, but > > with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the best, > > such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home that > > won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. > > Beth > > > > On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >> help them with. > >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I > >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional > >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the > >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >> > >> Best, > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>> Joe and others, > >>> > >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. > >>> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a > >>> matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a > >>> good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to > >>> raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am > >>> alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When > >>> you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare > >>> legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that > >>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether > >>> I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize > >>> that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some > >>> time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be > >>> solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. > >>> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that > >>> will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to > >>> believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything > >>> better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > >>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > >>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a > >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of > >>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A > >>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the > >>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving > >>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered > >>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a > >>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably > >>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind > >>> or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other > >>> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in > >>> the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's > >>> or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we > >>> hadn't tried it. > >>> > >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much > >>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you > >>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some > >>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we > >>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of > >>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader > >>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial > >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of > >>> having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our > >>> efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google > >>> self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? > >>> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I > >>> can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass > >>> roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any > >>> affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time > >>> for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, > >>> but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a > >>> downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not > >>> satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must > >>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. > >>> > >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > >>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a > >>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated > >>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the > >>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have > >>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. > >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it > >>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even > >>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic > >>> education. > >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>> > >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With > >>> our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking > >>> for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart > >>> in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a > >>> risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of > >>> all members, though, to handle change. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Steve Jacobson > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>> > >>>> Arielle, > >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>>> Joe, > >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I > >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the > >>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I > >>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I > >>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB > >>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of > >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics > >>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame > >>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to > >>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the > >>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. > >>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Joe, > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also > >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a > >>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and > >>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is > >>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. > >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due > >>>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable > >>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. > >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is > >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped > >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of > >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance > >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind > >>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I > >>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so > >>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative > >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and > >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is > > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > >>>>> > >>>>> Arielle > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >>>>>> Hello all. > >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own > >>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size > >>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > >>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>> Mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>> mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a > >>>>>> mentoor. RJ > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: "Joe" > >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad > >>>>>>> to be in the company > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me > >>>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my > >>>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's > >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington > >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. > >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I > >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn > >>>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it > >>>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned > >>>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money > >>>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a > >>>>>>> recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the > >>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness > >>>>>>> field, also national in scope. > >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>>>>>> professionals. > >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, > >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or > >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's > >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of > >>>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have > >>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who > >>>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and > >>>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>>>>>> sustaining. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>>>>>> don't want > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college > >>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to > >>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's > >>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and > >>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and > >>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > >>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what > >>>>>>> you always had > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough > >>>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a > >>>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. > >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that. > >>>>>>> Whether > >>>>>>> or > >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >>>>>>> want it to exist. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the > >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do > >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial > >>>>>>> management to you. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new > >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if > >>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. > >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, > >>>>>>> and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel > >>>>>>> at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the > >>>>>>> greater our strength. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest > >>>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame > >>>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Visit my blog: > >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > >>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capell > >>>>>> e%40frontier.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm > >>>>>> ail.com > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40 > >>>>> gmail.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 > >>>> 0visi.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40 > >> comcast.net > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 13:46:07 2014 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:46:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140401053543.01fbe468@comcast.net> References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140401053543.01fbe468@comcast.net> Message-ID: You could also communicate with a deaf person by putting your hands over theirs. It takes practice, but this is how I and a deafblind lady communicated while at the rehabilitation center. I agree that the philosophy is boxed in. We could add something about it applying despite any other disabilities. Jewel Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:38 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Kaiti, > > Growing up, one of my schoolmates, Corrina, had Usher's syndrom so was effectively deafblind. I remember it being difficult to communicate but still I am intrigued by deafblind communication. I'm sure you know tof an incredibly vibrant deafblind community. > So, they have ways to communicate. > More later... > fir today, Car > At 01:12 AM 4/1/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This is a great topic to converse about, and one I feel strongly about >> as someone who is going into a rehabilitation field. >> >> I have noticed for a long time that the NFB philosophy seems to be >> boxed in. That is, when we talk about it in our conventions, it is >> always framed as "The philosophy of blindness," when really, it is >> something anyone with any disability can follow. I've said that I'm >> going to strive to teach it to my music therapy patients, whether they >> are fighting cancer, adjusting to an acquired disability, or are >> otherwise chronically ill. Misunderstanding and misconceptions aren't >> just the problem with blindness, they're the problems with anything >> that is outside of the "norm," and I think we're doing wrong if we box >> it in to just talking about blindness. It does a great disservice to >> those with other disabilities who could benefit from it, as well as >> those who are blind with a comorbid disability. >> >> I am set to give a talk about visual impairment to an intro to music >> therapy class next week, as they are finishing a chapter in the >> textbook about sensory disorders and disabilities. Having read that >> book for that class last year, I know there are some things the book >> got right, and some things that I disagree with. It will be >> challenging for me to correct the misconceptions the first year >> students have been taught, but that is the same challenge deaf people >> face, and people with Autism Spectrum Disorders face, and people with >> mental illness face. I think that, although as the National >> Federation of the Blind we don't necessarily have a right to try to >> gain as much expertese on these other things as blindness per keeping >> relevant, but we can realize that our philosophy and ideals can be >> bigger than blindness, and can be even further reaching. >> >> I had a talk with a deaf guy last semester. He came to speak to music >> therapy club about deafness, and taught us some sign language. Since >> I couldn't see what he was signing, I was unable to grasp a lot of >> what he taught. Classmates next to me tried to help position my >> hands, but they were busy trying to do the signs themselves. I'll >> admit that the communication barrier between the speaker and I made me >> a little frustrated, so after the meeting I went up to him and >> explained my situation. I said that I had an interest in learning >> sign language so I could communicate with deaf people, but didn't know >> how to logistically pull it off. He taught me how to sign, "Sorry, I >> can't see you," so that I could first tell the deaf person I was blind >> (I didn't have my cane folded out when I was sitting at a desk for the >> presentation, so since he didn't see it he didn't know). Then he >> thought a bit about how the deaf person would be able to communicate >> with me, since if they were unable to speak themselves pen and paper >> wouldn't work. The best he could tell me was that the finger spelling >> would do the job, but at least I would be able to do the signing, >> which is more efficient. He said that would show the deaf person I >> had taken the time to learn how to communicate with them, even if they >> couldn't easily communicate with me, and at least I wouldn't have the >> frustration of tediously fingerspelling myself. It was cool, because >> afterwards he took a real interest in my notetaker and the braille >> display. It would be so cool if there weren't those separations >> between people with disabilities, and we could all work for a common >> goal. >> >> I know at conventions some deafblind people feel kind of left out, >> because all these blind people are whizzing past them and they can >> easily get disoriented in the crowds. I think helping the deafblind >> is a great start, but we do need to consider other disabilities, and >> combinations of disabilities with blindness as well. I don't know if >> I have an answer to how this can happen yet, but I think a big chunk >> of it is practicing what we preach. If we want sighted people to know >> the truth about blind people, and treat us as equals, we need to do >> the same for the deaf, those with Autism Spectrum Disorders and >> Developmental Disorders, and those with mental illness. >> >> Just my two cents worth... curious to see what others think. >> >> On 3/31/14, Joe wrote: >> > Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide dog >> > division has done that I find neat is that they've become a tangible >> > resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand it, you can call a >> > hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, etc. >> > Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer >> > assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to be in a >> > better position to help than someone who's been there? >> > >> > -- >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> > >> > Visit my blog: >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple >> > disabilities? >> > >> > On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean that >> > your >> > family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a leadership >> > position. That's not right, and I think we need to do some educational >> > campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. Alll this talk of academic >> > excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's >> > Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. Both have limits and one has an >> > educational >> > impairment along with it. We need to educate the people about mental >> > illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic" >> > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean we are >> > all >> > experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My parents thought I was >> > delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their lack of >> > knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and >> > later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, but >> > with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the best, >> > such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home that >> > won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. >> > Beth >> > >> > On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >> >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >> >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> >> help them with. >> >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >> >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >> >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >> >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >> >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >> >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >> >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Arielle >> >> >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> >>> Joe and others, >> >>> >> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >> >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >> >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. >> >>> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a >> >>> matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a >> >>> good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to >> >>> raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am >> >>> alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When >> >>> you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare >> >>> legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that >> >>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether >> >>> I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize >> >>> that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some >> >>> time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be >> >>> solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. >> >>> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that >> >>> will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to >> >>> believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything >> >>> better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >> >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >> >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >> >>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >> >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >> >>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >> >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >> >>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >> >>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >> >>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >> >>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >> >>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >> >>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >> >>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind >> >>> or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other >> >>> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in >> >>> the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's >> >>> or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we >> >>> hadn't tried it. >> >>> >> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >> >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >> >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >> >>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >> >>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >> >>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >> >>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >> >>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >> >>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >> >>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >> >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >> >>> having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our >> >>> efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google >> >>> self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? >> >>> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I >> >>> can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >> >>> roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any >> >>> affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time >> >>> for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, >> >>> but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a >> >>> downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >> >>> satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must >> >>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. >> >>> >> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >> >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >> >>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >> >>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >> >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a >> >>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated >> >>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >> >>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have >> >>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >> >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >> >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >> >>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >> >>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >> >>> education. >> >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >> >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >> >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >> >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >>> >> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >> >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >> >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >> >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >> >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >> >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >> >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With >> >>> our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking >> >>> for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart >> >>> in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a >> >>> risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of >> >>> all members, though, to handle change. >> >>> >> >>> Best regards, >> >>> >> >>> Steve Jacobson >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Arielle, >> >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >>>> Joe, >> >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >> >>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >> >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >> >>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >> >>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >> >>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >> >>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >> >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >> >>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >> >>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >> >>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >> >>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >> >>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> >>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hi Joe, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >> >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >> >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >> >>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >> >>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >> >>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >> >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >> >>>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >> >>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >> >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >> >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >> >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >> >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >> >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >> >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >> >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >> >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >> >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >> >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >> >>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >> >>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >> >>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >> >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >> >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is >> > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Arielle >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >> >>>>>> Hello all. >> >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >> >>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >> >>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> >>>>>> Thanks. >> >>>>>> Mike >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >> >>>>>> mailing list >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >> >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >> >>>>>> mentoor. RJ >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>> From: "Joe" >> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >> >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >> >>>>>>> to be in the company >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >> >>>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >> >>>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >> >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >> >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >> >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >> >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >> >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >> >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >> >>>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >> >>>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >> >>>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >> >>>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a >> >>>>>>> recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >> >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >> >>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >> >>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >> >>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I >> >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >> >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >> >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >> >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >> >>>>>>> field, also national in scope. >> >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >> >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >> >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >> >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> >>>>>>> professionals. >> >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >> >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >> >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >> >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >> >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >> >>>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> a >> >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >> >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >> >>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >> >>>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >> >>>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >> >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >> >>>>>>> sustaining. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >> >>>>>>> don't want >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> it >> >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >> >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >> >>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >> >>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >> >>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >> >>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >> >>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >> >>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >> >>>>>>> you always had >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> to >> >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >> >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >> >>>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >> >>>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >> >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that. >> >>>>>>> Whether >> >>>>>>> or >> >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >> >>>>>>> want it to exist. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >> >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >> >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >> >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >> >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >> >>>>>>> management to you. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >> >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >> >>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >> >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >> >>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >> >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, >> >>>>>>> and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >> >>>>>>> at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >> >>>>>>> greater our strength. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >> >>>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >> >>>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >> >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >> >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Joe >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >> >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>>> for >> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >> >>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capell >> >>>>>> e%40frontier.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>>> for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm >> >>>>>> ail.com >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>>> for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40 >> >>>>> gmail.com >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >> >>>> 0visi.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> >>> .com >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40 >> >> comcast.net >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 16:19:08 2014 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel and Stockard) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:19:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Samnet Socializer Message-ID: Hi all, I'm using a mac with voiceover, and I'm looking at the posibility of buying Samnet Socializer from Serotek. Do any of you use this program? Particularly, do any of you use this with a mac? I'm particularly interested in their personal website and blog features that are supposedly part of the package. Do any of you use these? Feedback would be appreciated. Thanks Laurel From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 16:21:25 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:21:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140401053543.01fbe468@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hello all, I was aware that there is a system for deafblind sign, but I'm just not sure of how to do it at this point. I've taken some American sign language and pigeon (just using the word signs, no letter spelling) so I know a lot of the visual symbols for things. I know the communication barrier doesn't necessarily have to be there, but I think it is so sad that it is as bad as it is, with few blind people able to communicate with the deaf or deafblind just because we don't know how to do it. I think a greater effort can be spent on bridging this gap, and some of that effort would have to be on our parts. I really want to learn deafblind signing, but perhaps that will unfortunately have to wait till I survive my bachelor's degree and earn my certification. I like the idea of adding a provision which includes more disabilities, or blind people with other factors going on. However, I also think that some of this work needs to just be forming relationships with like-minded organizations for people with other disabilities. If we can form a relationship with an Autism society, a deafness organization, and some mental health groups just to suggest a few, then our movement can be greater than we even think it can be now, and it will ultimately impact more people. In the process, those people with other disabilities will respect blindness as we respect it ourselves, and we can gain a mutual respect for their disabilities too. I know the NFB has collaborated with some other organizations on legislative stuff, but I think the relationship with other orgs can be extended past the goal of passing laws to protect minimum wages, etc. On 4/1/14, Jewel wrote: > You could also communicate with a deaf person by putting your hands over > theirs. It takes practice, but this is how I and a deafblind lady > communicated while at the rehabilitation center. > I agree that the philosophy is boxed in. We could add something about it > applying despite any other disabilities. > Jewel > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:38 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> Good morning, Kaiti, >> >> Growing up, one of my schoolmates, Corrina, had Usher's syndrom so >> was effectively deafblind. I remember it being difficult to communicate >> but still I am intrigued by deafblind communication. I'm sure you know tof >> an incredibly vibrant deafblind community. >> So, they have ways to communicate. >> More later... >> fir today, Car >> At 01:12 AM 4/1/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> This is a great topic to converse about, and one I feel strongly about >>> as someone who is going into a rehabilitation field. >>> >>> I have noticed for a long time that the NFB philosophy seems to be >>> boxed in. That is, when we talk about it in our conventions, it is >>> always framed as "The philosophy of blindness," when really, it is >>> something anyone with any disability can follow. I've said that I'm >>> going to strive to teach it to my music therapy patients, whether they >>> are fighting cancer, adjusting to an acquired disability, or are >>> otherwise chronically ill. Misunderstanding and misconceptions aren't >>> just the problem with blindness, they're the problems with anything >>> that is outside of the "norm," and I think we're doing wrong if we box >>> it in to just talking about blindness. It does a great disservice to >>> those with other disabilities who could benefit from it, as well as >>> those who are blind with a comorbid disability. >>> >>> I am set to give a talk about visual impairment to an intro to music >>> therapy class next week, as they are finishing a chapter in the >>> textbook about sensory disorders and disabilities. Having read that >>> book for that class last year, I know there are some things the book >>> got right, and some things that I disagree with. It will be >>> challenging for me to correct the misconceptions the first year >>> students have been taught, but that is the same challenge deaf people >>> face, and people with Autism Spectrum Disorders face, and people with >>> mental illness face. I think that, although as the National >>> Federation of the Blind we don't necessarily have a right to try to >>> gain as much expertese on these other things as blindness per keeping >>> relevant, but we can realize that our philosophy and ideals can be >>> bigger than blindness, and can be even further reaching. >>> >>> I had a talk with a deaf guy last semester. He came to speak to music >>> therapy club about deafness, and taught us some sign language. Since >>> I couldn't see what he was signing, I was unable to grasp a lot of >>> what he taught. Classmates next to me tried to help position my >>> hands, but they were busy trying to do the signs themselves. I'll >>> admit that the communication barrier between the speaker and I made me >>> a little frustrated, so after the meeting I went up to him and >>> explained my situation. I said that I had an interest in learning >>> sign language so I could communicate with deaf people, but didn't know >>> how to logistically pull it off. He taught me how to sign, "Sorry, I >>> can't see you," so that I could first tell the deaf person I was blind >>> (I didn't have my cane folded out when I was sitting at a desk for the >>> presentation, so since he didn't see it he didn't know). Then he >>> thought a bit about how the deaf person would be able to communicate >>> with me, since if they were unable to speak themselves pen and paper >>> wouldn't work. The best he could tell me was that the finger spelling >>> would do the job, but at least I would be able to do the signing, >>> which is more efficient. He said that would show the deaf person I >>> had taken the time to learn how to communicate with them, even if they >>> couldn't easily communicate with me, and at least I wouldn't have the >>> frustration of tediously fingerspelling myself. It was cool, because >>> afterwards he took a real interest in my notetaker and the braille >>> display. It would be so cool if there weren't those separations >>> between people with disabilities, and we could all work for a common >>> goal. >>> >>> I know at conventions some deafblind people feel kind of left out, >>> because all these blind people are whizzing past them and they can >>> easily get disoriented in the crowds. I think helping the deafblind >>> is a great start, but we do need to consider other disabilities, and >>> combinations of disabilities with blindness as well. I don't know if >>> I have an answer to how this can happen yet, but I think a big chunk >>> of it is practicing what we preach. If we want sighted people to know >>> the truth about blind people, and treat us as equals, we need to do >>> the same for the deaf, those with Autism Spectrum Disorders and >>> Developmental Disorders, and those with mental illness. >>> >>> Just my two cents worth... curious to see what others think. >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Joe wrote: >>> > Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide >>> > dog >>> > division has done that I find neat is that they've become a tangible >>> > resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand it, you can >>> > call a >>> > hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, >>> > etc. >>> > Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer >>> > assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to be >>> > in a >>> > better position to help than someone who's been there? >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> > >>> > Visit my blog: >>> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>> > Taurasi >>> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple >>> > disabilities? >>> > >>> > On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean >>> > that >>> > your >>> > family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a >>> > leadership >>> > position. That's not right, and I think we need to do some >>> > educational >>> > campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. Alll this talk of academic >>> > excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's >>> > Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. Both have limits and one has an >>> > educational >>> > impairment along with it. We need to educate the people about mental >>> > illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic" >>> > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean we >>> > are >>> > all >>> > experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My parents thought I >>> > was >>> > delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their >>> > lack of >>> > knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 >>> > and >>> > later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, >>> > but >>> > with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the >>> > best, >>> > such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home >>> > that >>> > won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. >>> > Beth >>> > >>> > On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >> Hi all, >>> >> >>> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>> >> of >>> >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >>> >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>> >> when >>> >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>> >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>> >> help them with. >>> >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>> >> wheelchair >>> >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>> >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >>> >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>> >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >>> >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>> >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >>> >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I >>> >> think >>> >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>> >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >>> >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >>> >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a >>> >> whole >>> >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >>> >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>> >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >>> >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>> >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>> >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >>> >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >> >>> >> Best, >>> >> Arielle >>> >> >>> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>> >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>> >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. >>> >>> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a >>> >>> matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a >>> >>> good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to >>> >>> raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am >>> >>> alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When >>> >>> you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare >>> >>> legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that >>> >>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether >>> >>> I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize >>> >>> that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some >>> >>> time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be >>> >>> solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. >>> >>> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that >>> >>> will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to >>> >>> believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything >>> >>> better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>> >>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>> >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>> >>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>> >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>> >>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>> >>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>> >>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>> >>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>> >>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>> >>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>> >>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>> >>> kind >>> >>> or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other >>> >>> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in >>> >>> the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's >>> >>> or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we >>> >>> hadn't tried it. >>> >>> >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>> >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>> >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>> >>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>> >>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>> >>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>> >>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>> >>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>> >>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>> >>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>> >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>> >>> having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of >>> >>> our >>> >>> efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google >>> >>> self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? >>> >>> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point >>> >>> I >>> >>> can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >>> >>> roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any >>> >>> affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time >>> >>> for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, >>> >>> but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a >>> >>> downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>> >>> satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and >>> >>> must >>> >>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. >>> >>> >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>> >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>> >>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>> >>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>> >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>> >>> a >>> >>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>> >>> Incorporated >>> >>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >>> >>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to >>> >>> have >>> >>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >>> >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >>> >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>> >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>> >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>> >>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>> >>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>> >>> education. >>> >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>> >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>> >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>> >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>> >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>> >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>> >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>> >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>> >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>> >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>> >>> With >>> >>> our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking >>> >>> for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart >>> >>> in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a >>> >>> risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help >>> >>> of >>> >>> all members, though, to handle change. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Arielle, >>> >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>>> Joe, >>> >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>> >>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>> >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>> >>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>> >>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>> >>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>> >>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>> >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>> >>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>> >>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>> >>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>> >>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>> >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>> >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>> >>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>> >>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>> >>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>> >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>> >>>>> due >>> >>>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>> >>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>> >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>> >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>> >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>> >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>> >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>> >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>> >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>> >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>> >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>> >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>> >>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>> >>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>> >>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>> >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>> >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >>> >>>>> is >>> > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Arielle >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>> >>>>>> Hello all. >>> >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>> >>>>>> own >>> >>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>> >>>>>> size >>> >>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>> >>>>>> Mike >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>> >>>>>> mailing list >>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>> >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>> >>>>>> a >>> >>>>>> mentoor. RJ >>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>> >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>> >>>>>>> to be in the company >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> of >>> >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>> >>>>>>> me >>> >>>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>> >>>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>> >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>> >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>> >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>> >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>> >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>> >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>> >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>> >>>>>>> turn >>> >>>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>> >>>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>> >>>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>> >>>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a >>> >>>>>>> recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>> >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>> >>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>> >>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>> >>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I >>> >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>> >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>> >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>> >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>> >>>>>>> blindness >>> >>>>>>> field, also national in scope. >>> >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>> >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>> >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>> >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>> >>>>>>> professionals. >>> >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>> >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>> >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>> >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>> >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>> >>>>>>> of >>> >>>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> a >>> >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>> >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>> >>>>>>> have >>> >>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>> >>>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>> >>>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>> >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>> >>>>>>> sustaining. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>> >>>>>>> don't want >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> it >>> >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>> >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>> >>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>> >>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>> >>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>> >>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>> >>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>> >>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>> >>>>>>> you always had >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> to >>> >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>> >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>> >>>>>>> enough >>> >>>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>> >>>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>> >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that. >>> >>>>>>> Whether >>> >>>>>>> or >>> >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>> >>>>>>> want it to exist. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>> >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>> >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>> >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>> >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>> >>>>>>> management to you. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>> >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>> >>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>> >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>> >>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>> >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>> >>>>>>> it, >>> >>>>>>> and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>> >>>>>>> at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>> >>>>>>> greater our strength. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>> >>>>>>> lest >>> >>>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>> >>>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>> >>>>>>> this: >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>> >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>> >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Joe >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>> >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>>>>>> info >>> >>>>>>> for >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>> >>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>>>>> for >>> >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capell >>> >>>>>> e%40frontier.com >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>>>>> for >>> >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm >>> >>>>>> ail.com >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>>>> for >>> >>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40 >>> >>>>> gmail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>>> for >>> >>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>> >>>> 0visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >>> for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> >>> .com >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40 >>> >> comcast.net >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Tue Apr 1 16:23:00 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:23:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140401053543.01fbe468@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000401cf4dc6$a65bc850$f31358f0$@mediacombb.net> It's not just disabilities that can benefit. That basics and understanding and putting it in to practice is a fantastic philosophy for humans in general to practice. I know it is aimed at the blind. However, people in general could benefit from it tenants. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 8:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? You could also communicate with a deaf person by putting your hands over theirs. It takes practice, but this is how I and a deafblind lady communicated while at the rehabilitation center. I agree that the philosophy is boxed in. We could add something about it applying despite any other disabilities. Jewel Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:38 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Kaiti, > > Growing up, one of my schoolmates, Corrina, had Usher's syndrom so was effectively deafblind. I remember it being difficult to communicate but still I am intrigued by deafblind communication. I'm sure you know tof an incredibly vibrant deafblind community. > So, they have ways to communicate. > More later... > fir today, Car > At 01:12 AM 4/1/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This is a great topic to converse about, and one I feel strongly >> about as someone who is going into a rehabilitation field. >> >> I have noticed for a long time that the NFB philosophy seems to be >> boxed in. That is, when we talk about it in our conventions, it is >> always framed as "The philosophy of blindness," when really, it is >> something anyone with any disability can follow. I've said that I'm >> going to strive to teach it to my music therapy patients, whether >> they are fighting cancer, adjusting to an acquired disability, or are >> otherwise chronically ill. Misunderstanding and misconceptions >> aren't just the problem with blindness, they're the problems with >> anything that is outside of the "norm," and I think we're doing wrong >> if we box it in to just talking about blindness. It does a great >> disservice to those with other disabilities who could benefit from >> it, as well as those who are blind with a comorbid disability. >> >> I am set to give a talk about visual impairment to an intro to music >> therapy class next week, as they are finishing a chapter in the >> textbook about sensory disorders and disabilities. Having read that >> book for that class last year, I know there are some things the book >> got right, and some things that I disagree with. It will be >> challenging for me to correct the misconceptions the first year >> students have been taught, but that is the same challenge deaf people >> face, and people with Autism Spectrum Disorders face, and people with >> mental illness face. I think that, although as the National >> Federation of the Blind we don't necessarily have a right to try to >> gain as much expertese on these other things as blindness per keeping >> relevant, but we can realize that our philosophy and ideals can be >> bigger than blindness, and can be even further reaching. >> >> I had a talk with a deaf guy last semester. He came to speak to >> music therapy club about deafness, and taught us some sign language. >> Since I couldn't see what he was signing, I was unable to grasp a lot >> of what he taught. Classmates next to me tried to help position my >> hands, but they were busy trying to do the signs themselves. I'll >> admit that the communication barrier between the speaker and I made >> me a little frustrated, so after the meeting I went up to him and >> explained my situation. I said that I had an interest in learning >> sign language so I could communicate with deaf people, but didn't >> know how to logistically pull it off. He taught me how to sign, >> "Sorry, I can't see you," so that I could first tell the deaf person >> I was blind (I didn't have my cane folded out when I was sitting at a >> desk for the presentation, so since he didn't see it he didn't know). >> Then he thought a bit about how the deaf person would be able to >> communicate with me, since if they were unable to speak themselves >> pen and paper wouldn't work. The best he could tell me was that the >> finger spelling would do the job, but at least I would be able to do >> the signing, which is more efficient. He said that would show the >> deaf person I had taken the time to learn how to communicate with >> them, even if they couldn't easily communicate with me, and at least >> I wouldn't have the frustration of tediously fingerspelling myself. >> It was cool, because afterwards he took a real interest in my >> notetaker and the braille display. It would be so cool if there >> weren't those separations between people with disabilities, and we >> could all work for a common goal. >> >> I know at conventions some deafblind people feel kind of left out, >> because all these blind people are whizzing past them and they can >> easily get disoriented in the crowds. I think helping the deafblind >> is a great start, but we do need to consider other disabilities, and >> combinations of disabilities with blindness as well. I don't know if >> I have an answer to how this can happen yet, but I think a big chunk >> of it is practicing what we preach. If we want sighted people to >> know the truth about blind people, and treat us as equals, we need to >> do the same for the deaf, those with Autism Spectrum Disorders and >> Developmental Disorders, and those with mental illness. >> >> Just my two cents worth... curious to see what others think. >> >> On 3/31/14, Joe wrote: >> > Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide >> > dog division has done that I find neat is that they've become a >> > tangible resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand >> > it, you can call a hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, etc. >> > Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer >> > assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to >> > be in a better position to help than someone who's been there? >> > >> > -- >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> > >> > Visit my blog: >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >> > Taurasi >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> > multiple disabilities? >> > >> > On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean >> > that your family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run >> > for a leadership position. That's not right, and I think we need >> > to do some educational campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. >> > Alll this talk of academic excellence could lead to people being >> > left out: people with Turner's Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. >> > Both have limits and one has an educational impairment along with >> > it. We need to educate the people about mental illness in that it >> > does not cause people to go "psychotic" >> > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean >> > we are all experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My >> > parents thought I was delusional and placed me under a guardianship >> > due to that and their lack of knowledge and understanding of the >> > disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and later at 19. There >> > would've been better ideas on solving the problems, but with little >> > knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the best, such >> > as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home that >> > won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. >> > Beth >> > >> > On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the >> >> number of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to >> >> increase, and more than that, the number of blind people with >> >> additional disabilities who are getting educated and involved in >> >> advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that, for the most >> >> part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to the >> >> needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also >> >> think that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly >> >> appreciate the contributions of all blind people. I think it's >> >> particularly true when we think about including people with >> >> intellectual disabilities and mental illnesses. These kinds of >> >> conditions are stigmatized in general, but especially since our >> >> leadership has tended to be highly educated and to stress academic >> >> excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I can see >> >> how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or >> >> chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind >> >> folks who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB >> >> due to the ups and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who >> >> are still incredibly creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able >> >> to help them with. >> >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more >> >> divisions and groups within the NFB that focus on other >> >> conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, but I have not heard >> >> many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard about >> >> efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes >> >> sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns >> >> they'd want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a >> >> division has not been formed. I would love to see a division for >> >> blind people with mental health conditions. This is a huge segment >> >> of our population, and there are probably unique concerns there. I >> >> am not sure if such divisions don't exist because the national >> >> leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't been enough >> >> interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such >> >> divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain >> >> leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide >> >> a vehicle for collective action and education about issues >> >> affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would >> >> be interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is >> >> something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >> >> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come >> >> from the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Arielle >> >> >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> >>> Joe and others, >> >>> >> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >> >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and >> >>> we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. >> >>> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a >> >>> matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked >> >>> a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the >> >>> need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not >> >>> think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is >> >>> a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >> >>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly >> >>> clear that legislative successes are not proportional to one's >> >>> budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes >> >>> or not, I recognize that the ACB has made contributions. >> >>> However, I have felt for some time and I feel particularly more >> >>> so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. >> >>> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed >> >>> that will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen >> >>> to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >> >>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >> >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand >> >>> the limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >> >>> information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about >> >>> being able to drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind >> >>> people can do that at some point. However, I got very excited >> >>> about the fact that as a result of looking at the problem, we >> >>> experimented with a number of ways of getting information that >> >>> had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >> >>> budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >> >>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a >> >>> KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national >> >>> convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >> >>> start to read the content. There have probably been over a >> >>> thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind or >> >>> another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other >> >>> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players >> >>> in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in >> >>> the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >>> >> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >> >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. >> >>> We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make >> >>> a difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as >> >>> much from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because >> >>> if you make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. >> >>> Will some of those thousand kids get into math or science because >> >>> of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >> >>> better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see >> >>> a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader >> >>> that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a >> >>> computer screen instead of having to educate every person who >> >>> writes software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might >> >>> be a way for us to control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? >> >>> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this >> >>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller >> >>> dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the 80's >> >>> couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >> >>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >> >>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust >> >>> to change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >> >>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >> >>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. >> >>> >> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >> >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing >> >>> does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >> >>> conclusions about such training based upon the marketing. >> >>> Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and challenges of >> >>> seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what is >> >>> addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by >> >>> our other centers. Some of the point of such training is to >> >>> encourage the idea that you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >> >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >> >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but >> >>> it won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and >> >>> even training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good >> >>> basic education. >> >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that >> >>> problem if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You >> >>> can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to success >> >>> by itself, and you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >>> >> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to >> >>> impact the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >> >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where >> >>> we are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of >> >>> what can we change to address the challenges of the world and >> >>> what do we need the world to change is more important than ever, >> >>> and I don't see anyone asking questions like that outside of this >> >>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >> >>> understanding of asking for help and looking for our own >> >>> solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >> >>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk worth taking to try >> >>> to have a wider impact. We need the help of all members, though, to handle change. >> >>> >> >>> Best regards, >> >>> >> >>> Steve Jacobson >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Arielle, >> >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >>>> Joe, >> >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >> >>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >> >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate >> >>> the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the >> >>> passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious >> >>> cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think >> >>> the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and >> >>> mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness >> >>> and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. >> >>> It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the >> >>> line and pander to those with political power are treated with >> >>> hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. >> >>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> >>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hi Joe, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following >> >>>>> the Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you >> >>>>> are saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have >> >>>>> also felt like the national convention is turning into more of >> >>>>> a carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, >> >>>>> and much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB >> >>>>> spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >> >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it >> >>>>> is now, and I understand that some national programs have been >> >>>>> cut due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady >> >>>>> reliable income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising >> >>>>> more, but the alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >> >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or >> >>>>> refused membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it >> >>>>> is truly shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective >> >>>>> members choose not to join because they perceive hostility from >> >>>>> the organization or judgment of their lifestyle choices. I >> >>>>> think part of that is perception only, and part of it is >> >>>>> reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all >> >>>>> organization, and new members expecting to find that could be >> >>>>> especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> >>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments >> >>>>> of the organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say >> >>>>> that I am not the most graceful blind person and was relatively >> >>>>> unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt completely >> >>>>> accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would >> >>>>> encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to >> >>>>> try again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they >> >>>>> will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is >> > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Arielle >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >> >>>>>> Hello all. >> >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >> >>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a >> >>>>>> one size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> >>>>>> Thanks. >> >>>>>> Mike >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind >> >>>>>> Students mailing list >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and >> >>>>>> Seminary without the NFB's help, although it would have been >> >>>>>> nice to have a mentoor. RJ >> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>> From: "Joe" >> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. >> >>>>>>> While there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and >> >>>>>>> felt glad to be in the company >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that >> >>>>>>> awaited me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, >> >>>>>>> finished up my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for >> >>>>>>> DC to begin my business with the real world. I would never >> >>>>>>> take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a national >> >>>>>>> convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >> >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >> >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >> >>>>>>> with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >> >>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >> >>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board >> >>>>>>> meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by >> >>>>>>> calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it >> >>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >> >>>>>>> monthly dose of inspiration, featured several articles just >> >>>>>>> to the focus of generating more ways to drum up more >> >>>>>>> financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating byproduct >> >>>>>>> of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >> >>>>>>> whom >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I >> >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to >> >>>>>>> their NFB fundraising campaigns. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and >> >>>>>>> forgot about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to >> >>>>>>> help lead development efforts for other nonprofits outside of >> >>>>>>> the blindness field, also national in scope. >> >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like >> >>>>>>> the top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we >> >>>>>>> focus on recruiting new blood and raising new money and >> >>>>>>> forget about strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> >>>>>>> professionals. >> >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than >> >>>>>>> I ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever >> >>>>>>> achieve, but they shun the organization because they were >> >>>>>>> turned away or because they were never welcomed in the first >> >>>>>>> place. It's something I should have kept in mind when I had >> >>>>>>> my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >> >>>>>>> much of >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> a >> >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was >> >>>>>>> reliable enough to get the job done. But, getting the job >> >>>>>>> done should have really meant attracting and pulling in these >> >>>>>>> men and women who could have made the NFB lots better, >> >>>>>>> listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to >> >>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >> >>>>>>> ourselves incapable of sustaining. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? >> >>>>>>> I don't want >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> it >> >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >> >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the >> >>>>>>> college kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I >> >>>>>>> want you to know the NFB banner will only guide your way so >> >>>>>>> far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >> >>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it >> >>>>>>> will be your own wits and talents that will earn your pay >> >>>>>>> check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >> >>>>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> to >> >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB >> >>>>>>> president, and I will be the first to retract my words if he >> >>>>>>> is brave enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we >> >>>>>>> no longer live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >> >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that. >> >>>>>>> Whether >> >>>>>>> or >> >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly >> >>>>>>> we want it to exist. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you >> >>>>>>> know what I've found from the people I've met on that side of >> >>>>>>> the house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't >> >>>>>>> seem to figure out in our camp. The few victories they >> >>>>>>> celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson >> >>>>>>> in financial management to you. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself >> >>>>>>> I would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. >> >>>>>>> My only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >> >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, >> >>>>>>> if you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >> >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >> >>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >> >>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >> >>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >> >>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >> >>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility >> >>>>>>> to consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn >> >>>>>>> away what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Joe >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >> >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>>> info for >> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingja >> >>>>>>> cksa >> >>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>> info for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.ca >> >>>>>> pell >> >>>>>> e%40frontier.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>>> info for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71% >> >>>>>> 40gm >> >>>>>> ail.com >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfl >> >>>>> y%40 >> >>>>> gmail.com >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobs >> >>>> on%4 >> >>>> 0visi.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>> for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> >>> mail >> >>> .com >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> for >> > nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen110 >> >> 7%40 >> >> comcast.net >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmai >> > l.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet1 >> > 04%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcas >> t.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gm > ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Apr 1 17:49:13 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 10:49:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140401053543.01fbe468@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140401104534.01f471f0@comcast.net> Good morning, Kaiti and Laurel and everyone, We don't need a proximity with particular organizations such as the NFB, or a deafblind organization to foster unity, do we? Can't these ends be achieved on an interpersonal level? for today, Car 09:21 AM 4/1/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >Hello all, > >I was aware that there is a system for deafblind sign, but I'm just >not sure of how to do it at this point. I've taken some American sign >language and pigeon (just using the word signs, no letter spelling) so >I know a lot of the visual symbols for things. I know the >communication barrier doesn't necessarily have to be there, but I >think it is so sad that it is as bad as it is, with few blind people >able to communicate with the deaf or deafblind just because we don't >know how to do it. I think a greater effort can be spent on bridging >this gap, and some of that effort would have to be on our parts. I >really want to learn deafblind signing, but perhaps that will >unfortunately have to wait till I survive my bachelor's degree and >earn my certification. > >I like the idea of adding a provision which includes more >disabilities, or blind people with other factors going on. However, I >also think that some of this work needs to just be forming >relationships with like-minded organizations for people with other >disabilities. If we can form a relationship with an Autism society, a >deafness organization, and some mental health groups just to suggest a >few, then our movement can be greater than we even think it can be >now, and it will ultimately impact more people. In the process, those >people with other disabilities will respect blindness as we respect it >ourselves, and we can gain a mutual respect for their disabilities >too. I know the NFB has collaborated with some other organizations on >legislative stuff, but I think the relationship with other orgs can be >extended past the goal of passing laws to protect minimum wages, etc. > >On 4/1/14, Jewel wrote: > > You could also communicate with a deaf person by putting your hands over > > theirs. It takes practice, but this is how I and a deafblind lady > > communicated while at the rehabilitation center. > > I agree that the philosophy is boxed in. We could add something about it > > applying despite any other disabilities. > > Jewel > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:38 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> > >> Good morning, Kaiti, > >> > >> Growing up, one of my schoolmates, Corrina, had Usher's syndrom so > >> was effectively deafblind. I remember it being difficult to communicate > >> but still I am intrigued by deafblind communication. I'm sure you know tof > >> an incredibly vibrant deafblind community. > >> So, they have ways to communicate. > >> More later... > >> fir today, Car > >> At 01:12 AM 4/1/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> This is a great topic to converse about, and one I feel strongly about > >>> as someone who is going into a rehabilitation field. > >>> > >>> I have noticed for a long time that the NFB philosophy seems to be > >>> boxed in. That is, when we talk about it in our conventions, it is > >>> always framed as "The philosophy of blindness," when really, it is > >>> something anyone with any disability can follow. I've said that I'm > >>> going to strive to teach it to my music therapy patients, whether they > >>> are fighting cancer, adjusting to an acquired disability, or are > >>> otherwise chronically ill. Misunderstanding and misconceptions aren't > >>> just the problem with blindness, they're the problems with anything > >>> that is outside of the "norm," and I think we're doing wrong if we box > >>> it in to just talking about blindness. It does a great disservice to > >>> those with other disabilities who could benefit from it, as well as > >>> those who are blind with a comorbid disability. > >>> > >>> I am set to give a talk about visual impairment to an intro to music > >>> therapy class next week, as they are finishing a chapter in the > >>> textbook about sensory disorders and disabilities. Having read that > >>> book for that class last year, I know there are some things the book > >>> got right, and some things that I disagree with. It will be > >>> challenging for me to correct the misconceptions the first year > >>> students have been taught, but that is the same challenge deaf people > >>> face, and people with Autism Spectrum Disorders face, and people with > >>> mental illness face. I think that, although as the National > >>> Federation of the Blind we don't necessarily have a right to try to > >>> gain as much expertese on these other things as blindness per keeping > >>> relevant, but we can realize that our philosophy and ideals can be > >>> bigger than blindness, and can be even further reaching. > >>> > >>> I had a talk with a deaf guy last semester. He came to speak to music > >>> therapy club about deafness, and taught us some sign language. Since > >>> I couldn't see what he was signing, I was unable to grasp a lot of > >>> what he taught. Classmates next to me tried to help position my > >>> hands, but they were busy trying to do the signs themselves. I'll > >>> admit that the communication barrier between the speaker and I made me > >>> a little frustrated, so after the meeting I went up to him and > >>> explained my situation. I said that I had an interest in learning > >>> sign language so I could communicate with deaf people, but didn't know > >>> how to logistically pull it off. He taught me how to sign, "Sorry, I > >>> can't see you," so that I could first tell the deaf person I was blind > >>> (I didn't have my cane folded out when I was sitting at a desk for the > >>> presentation, so since he didn't see it he didn't know). Then he > >>> thought a bit about how the deaf person would be able to communicate > >>> with me, since if they were unable to speak themselves pen and paper > >>> wouldn't work. The best he could tell me was that the finger spelling > >>> would do the job, but at least I would be able to do the signing, > >>> which is more efficient. He said that would show the deaf person I > >>> had taken the time to learn how to communicate with them, even if they > >>> couldn't easily communicate with me, and at least I wouldn't have the > >>> frustration of tediously fingerspelling myself. It was cool, because > >>> afterwards he took a real interest in my notetaker and the braille > >>> display. It would be so cool if there weren't those separations > >>> between people with disabilities, and we could all work for a common > >>> goal. > >>> > >>> I know at conventions some deafblind people feel kind of left out, > >>> because all these blind people are whizzing past them and they can > >>> easily get disoriented in the crowds. I think helping the deafblind > >>> is a great start, but we do need to consider other disabilities, and > >>> combinations of disabilities with blindness as well. I don't know if > >>> I have an answer to how this can happen yet, but I think a big chunk > >>> of it is practicing what we preach. If we want sighted people to know > >>> the truth about blind people, and treat us as equals, we need to do > >>> the same for the deaf, those with Autism Spectrum Disorders and > >>> Developmental Disorders, and those with mental illness. > >>> > >>> Just my two cents worth... curious to see what others think. > >>> > >>> On 3/31/14, Joe wrote: > >>> > Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide > >>> > dog > >>> > division has done that I find neat is that they've become a tangible > >>> > resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand it, you can > >>> > call a > >>> > hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, > >>> > etc. > >>> > Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer > >>> > assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to be > >>> > in a > >>> > better position to help than someone who's been there? > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>> > > >>> > Visit my blog: > >>> > http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > >>> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth > >>> > Taurasi > >>> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM > >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple > >>> > disabilities? > >>> > > >>> > On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean > >>> > that > >>> > your > >>> > family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a > >>> > leadership > >>> > position. That's not right, and I think we need to do some > >>> > educational > >>> > campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. Alll this talk of academic > >>> > excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's > >>> > Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. Both have limits and one has an > >>> > educational > >>> > impairment along with it. We need to educate the people about mental > >>> > illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic" > >>> > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean we > >>> > are > >>> > all > >>> > experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My parents thought I > >>> > was > >>> > delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their > >>> > lack of > >>> > knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 > >>> > and > >>> > later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, > >>> > but > >>> > with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the > >>> > best, > >>> > such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home > >>> > that > >>> > won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. > >>> > Beth > >>> > > >>> > On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >>> >> Hi all, > >>> >> > >>> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >>> >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >>> >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number > >>> >> of > >>> >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > >>> >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >>> >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >>> >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >>> >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >>> >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >>> >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >>> >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true > >>> >> when > >>> >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > >>> >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >>> >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >>> >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >>> >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >>> >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >>> >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >>> >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >>> >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >>> >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >>> >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >>> >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >>> >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >>> >> help them with. > >>> >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >>> >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >>> >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >>> >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >>> >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >>> >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind > >>> >> wheelchair > >>> >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > >>> >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I > >>> >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > >>> >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > >>> >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > >>> >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > >>> >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I > >>> >> think > >>> >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional > >>> >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > >>> >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > >>> >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a > >>> >> whole > >>> >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > >>> >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > >>> >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > >>> >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > >>> >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the > >>> >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > >>> >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best, > >>> >> Arielle > >>> >> > >>> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>> >>> Joe and others, > >>> >>> > >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >>> >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > >>> >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. > >>> >>> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a > >>> >>> matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a > >>> >>> good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to > >>> >>> raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am > >>> >>> alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When > >>> >>> you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare > >>> >>> legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that > >>> >>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether > >>> >>> I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize > >>> >>> that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some > >>> >>> time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be > >>> >>> solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. > >>> >>> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that > >>> >>> will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to > >>> >>> believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything > >>> >>> better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>> >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >>> >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > >>> >>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > >>> >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > >>> >>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a > >>> >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of > >>> >>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A > >>> >>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the > >>> >>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving > >>> >>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered > >>> >>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a > >>> >>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably > >>> >>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one > >>> >>> kind > >>> >>> or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other > >>> >>> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in > >>> >>> the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's > >>> >>> or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we > >>> >>> hadn't tried it. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > >>> >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > >>> >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >>> >>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much > >>> >>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you > >>> >>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some > >>> >>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we > >>> >>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of > >>> >>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader > >>> >>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial > >>> >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of > >>> >>> having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of > >>> >>> our > >>> >>> efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google > >>> >>> self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? > >>> >>> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point > >>> >>> I > >>> >>> can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass > >>> >>> roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any > >>> >>> affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time > >>> >>> for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, > >>> >>> but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a > >>> >>> downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not > >>> >>> satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and > >>> >>> must > >>> >>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >>> >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > >>> >>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >>> >>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >>> >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as > >>> >>> a > >>> >>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND > >>> >>> Incorporated > >>> >>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the > >>> >>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to > >>> >>> have > >>> >>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. > >>> >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > >>> >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >>> >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >>> >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it > >>> >>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even > >>> >>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic > >>> >>> education. > >>> >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > >>> >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > >>> >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > >>> >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > >>> >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >>> >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > >>> >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > >>> >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > >>> >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >>> >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > >>> >>> With > >>> >>> our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking > >>> >>> for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart > >>> >>> in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a > >>> >>> risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help > >>> >>> of > >>> >>> all members, though, to handle change. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Best regards, > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Steve Jacobson > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>>> Arielle, > >>> >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>> >>>> Joe, > >>> >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >>> >>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I > >>> >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the > >>> >>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I > >>> >>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I > >>> >>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB > >>> >>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of > >>> >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics > >>> >>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame > >>> >>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to > >>> >>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the > >>> >>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. > >>> >>> > >>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> wrote: > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> Hi Joe, > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >>> >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >>> >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also > >>> >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a > >>> >>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and > >>> >>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is > >>> >>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. > >>> >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >>> >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut > >>> >>>>> due > >>> >>>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable > >>> >>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > >>> >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. > >>> >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>> >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>> >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > >>> >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >>> >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is > >>> >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped > >>> >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > >>> >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of > >>> >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance > >>> >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > >>> >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind > >>> >>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I > >>> >>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so > >>> >>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative > >>> >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and > >>> >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this > >>> >>>>> is > >>> > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> Arielle > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >>> >>>>>> Hello all. > >>> >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my > >>> >>>>>> own > >>> >>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one > >>> >>>>>> size > >>> >>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > >>> >>>>>> Thanks. > >>> >>>>>> Mike > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>> >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>> >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>> >>>>>> mailing list > >>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>> >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have > >>> >>>>>> a > >>> >>>>>> mentoor. RJ > >>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> >>>>>> From: "Joe" > >>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>> >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad > >>> >>>>>>> to be in the company > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> of > >>> >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited > >>> >>>>>>> me > >>> >>>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my > >>> >>>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > >>> >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's > >>> >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington > >>> >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. > >>> >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I > >>> >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>> >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>> >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in > >>> >>>>>>> turn > >>> >>>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it > >>> >>>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned > >>> >>>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money > >>> >>>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a > >>> >>>>>>> recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > >>> >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >>> >>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >>> >>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the > >>> >>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> I > >>> >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>> >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>> >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>> >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the > >>> >>>>>>> blindness > >>> >>>>>>> field, also national in scope. > >>> >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>> >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>> >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>> >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>> >>>>>>> professionals. > >>> >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>> >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, > >>> >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or > >>> >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's > >>> >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste > >>> >>>>>>> of > >>> >>>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> a > >>> >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>> >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should > >>> >>>>>>> have > >>> >>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who > >>> >>>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and > >>> >>>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>> >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>> >>>>>>> sustaining. > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>> >>>>>>> don't want > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> it > >>> >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >>> >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college > >>> >>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to > >>> >>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's > >>> >>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and > >>> >>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and > >>> >>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > >>> >>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what > >>> >>>>>>> you always had > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> to > >>> >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>> >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave > >>> >>>>>>> enough > >>> >>>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a > >>> >>>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. > >>> >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that. > >>> >>>>>>> Whether > >>> >>>>>>> or > >>> >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >>> >>>>>>> want it to exist. > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>> >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the > >>> >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > >>> >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do > >>> >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial > >>> >>>>>>> management to you. > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>> >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >>> >>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new > >>> >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if > >>> >>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. > >>> >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut > >>> >>>>>>> it, > >>> >>>>>>> and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel > >>> >>>>>>> at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the > >>> >>>>>>> greater our strength. > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here > >>> >>>>>>> lest > >>> >>>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame > >>> >>>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be > >>> >>>>>>> this: > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>> >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>> >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> Joe > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> -- > >>> >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: > >>> >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> >>>>>>> info > >>> >>>>>>> for > >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > >>> >>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>>>>> for > >>> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capell > >>> >>>>>> e%40frontier.com > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>>>>> for > >>> >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm > >>> >>>>>> ail.com > >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>>>> for > >>> >>>>> nabs-l: > >>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40 > >>> >>>>> gmail.com > >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>>> for > >>> >>>> nabs-l: > >>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 > >>> >>>> 0visi.com > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> >>> for > >>> >>> nabs-l: > >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail > >>> >>> .com > >>> >>> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> nabs-l mailing list > >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> > nabs-l: > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40 > >>> >> comcast.net > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> > nabs-l: > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> > nabs-l: > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Kaiti > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 18:49:14 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:49:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people References: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com><015d01cf4bb8$8791f8f0$96b5ead0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: very good point arielle. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Perhaps the issue is whether we are talking about individual or collective success. On a group level, as you point out, blind people experience less success than their sighted peers, and face several tangible obstacles that I still contend are all part of lack of opportunity. On an individual level, though, blindness is more relevant in some of our lives than others. I don't think blindness affected my own academic experiences much. This was because I had training and opportunity, and because I was in a field where nonvisual access was pretty easy to come by. For others of us blindness presented huge obstacles. I don't like the generalization that blindness is a handicap for all of us but instead I would argue that the impact of blindness is very dependent on context. Even in the last few days visiting my family for spring break, in a place where there's little public transit, nothing in the kitchen is organized or Brailled, etc. I feel a huge loss of the independence I am so accustomed to living on my own. My blindness didn't change when I flew to Arizona but the surrounding situation changed instead. I do think our philosophy needs to focus on improving our situations, which is what I think is meant by creating opportunity, rather than on eradicating blindness or blaming our troubles on blindness. Blindness is a fixed thing but our situations are highly flexible and as a collective we must continue to make our situations better for us. Arielle On 3/29/14, Joe wrote: > Steve, > > I hardly think my words are dismal. My opposition is to people who claim > success is irrelevant to blindness, and it was my response that the > persistent unemployment rate tells a different story. I struggle with the > notion that those 70 plus percent refuse to succeed. You can indeed become > a > teacher, an attorney, engineer, or anything else your heart desires, but > as > some here have pointed out, you must also conquer the first stretch of > unique obstacles that present themselves to blind individuals. > > I too derive positive energy from the NFB philosophy, and despite my > backhanded remark of the organization's leadership, I think they are > mostly > well-appointed to act on our collective concerns. However, these > over-simplistic marketing sound bites and training center promises do > nothing for the blind person at any stage of their independence who find > themselves with tangible challenges no amount of positive philosophy can > immediately resolve. > > All I am advocating for is a little pragmatic planning. You will most > assuredly succeed. Yet, you must be prepared to go the extra mile to get > there. It is not so simple as completing a round of training and presuming > the world will be at your feet. We criticize our sighted peers for > celebrating tasks we accomplish, because in our minds, these are minimal > tasks anyone could accomplish. Me, I say to heck with that. I'm proud of > you > for the man you are. You make me look good to the public by association > because you first challenged yourself to be an independent blind person > and > then went out and lived up to your own professional aspirations. > > Success does indeed have many faces. Yet, I think that belief can just as > easily help us justify our accomplishments to skeptics as it can help us > justify our complacency. I can't tell if I'm more of a hard-liner than you > on this discussion, but regardless, we should both agree that the core > message needs to change a bit if we want to reverse the declining interest > in the traditional grassroots movement. There are too many approaches and > too many channels to compare those approaches to claim the old mantras of > a > one-size-fits-all mentality are still relevant. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Jacobson [mailto:steve.jacobson at visi.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:47 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > Joe, > > Good grief, which lack of opportunities do we have control over? If we > had > control over them, they would no longer constitute a lack of > opportunities. > It feels like you are playing games with words here. Blindness is going > to > be more than a nuisance at times as are many, many other things in life. > Is > it fair that we are not all born sighted? Of course not, but you could > say > that about a lot of characteristics. It is my understanding that the > "reduced to a nuisance" thing was intended to address the notion that many > sighted peopl have that we wake up every morning dreading living another > day > as a blind person. I can honestly say I do not wake up that way. A month > ago, it was fifteen below zero here in Minnesota and a cab dropped me off > at > the wrong place. I pulled out my iPhone to use BlindSquare to see where I > was. My fingers got so cold so quickly that I couldn't access it. Right > then, blindness was more than a nuisance, and I don't mind admitting that. > We have some big obstacles now and some will get bigger if we don't figure > out how to deal with them more successfully. Accessibility is a very big > one. Let's not forget, though, that thirty years ago, and I remember > because I was in the work place then, we had access to no forms, no mail, > no > banking information and on and on. We had to hire readers for all of it. > In some ways, I think taking classes back then was actually easier, > though, > than it is today, although I would have given a lot to be able to use the > web to do research as can be done now. Things change, they gett better in > some ways but worse in others. There are many things about life that can > be > difficult, and blindness is one, but not the only one and I maintain often > not the biggest one. What our philosophy does for me is to help me keep > it > in some sort of perspective. Being born sighted would have been nice, but > so would being born rich, or being born with an irresistable artistic > tallent or maybe even athletic skills. Regardless of one's level of > patriotism, I thing most would agree that being born blind here and in > many > other countries is probably preferable to being born sighted in a war zone > or area of unrest. > > There are far too many of us who have not been able to move ahead to the > degree that they likely would have had they been born sighted. We have to > keep trying to make opportunities better than they are. In some ways, I > think we have been fighting pretty hard just to stay even, but where would > we be if we hadn't fought. I am frankly somewhat concerned about where we > are right now with respect to accessibility, but I'm going to try to do > what > I can to make the chances better that it will move in the right direction. > We also have to be willing to use other tools when we need to. It means > asking for help sometimes but it also means finding a way to return the > help > we are given in another way. As I think you know, I don't work at the > heights of the blindness movement, but I know I have been lucky in many > ways > and I am mindful of that. I just don't see where preaching hopelessness > is > going to help us. > When I was looking for a job, just knowing that others had found jobs > helped > me keep moving. However, I was also able to learn from them so I received > tangible assistance in that way, too. > > I think that too much time is spent on trying to define "nuisance" and > "non-issue" instead of trying to get to the true intent of using those > words, to paint a picture that is less bleak and to offer hope and > support. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:39:50 -0400, Joe wrote: > >>Arielle, > >>Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not >>merely lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which >>we do not always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, >>could, be a non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did >>not slow down our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who >>can move through life without experiencing frustration with the delays >>and detours at random points along the way. In fact, I would submit >>that those few for whom blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones >>working at the heights of the blindness movement where it is easy to >>drum up platitudes of opportunity and analogies of blindness to a >>nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out and raise money for the >>cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of that leadership >>bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I will take a >>motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but there's >>success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and then > there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn it. > >>-- >>Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>Visit my blog: >>http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>Silverman >>Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>successfulblind people > >>Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of > opportunity. >>Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all >>denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of >>opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when >>things are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a >>car, etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. >>Arielle > >>On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: >>> Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite >>> speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way >>> I interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main >>> point in that speech was that real independence means getting things >>> done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously >>> high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly >>> emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you >>> accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and >>> as long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech >>> is easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some >>> people >>in the federation who don't quite live by it. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>> successfulblind people >>>> >>>> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >>>> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good morning, everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>>>> getting >>>> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >>>> wrong with that? >>>>> for today, Car >>>>> >>>>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance > anymore. >>>> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >>>> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >>>> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >>>> vision. >>>>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the >>>>>> news and >>>> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >>>> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >>>> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >>>> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >>>> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >>>> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >>>> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >>>> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >>>> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, >>>>>> I >>>> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >>>> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>>>> passions. Its >>>> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the >>>> world. >>>> Go >>>> out and achieve big things for you. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>>>> field, >>>> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>>>> You are smart. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>>> successfulblind people >>>>>> >>>>>> Phil, >>>>>> >>>>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>>>> >>>>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective >>>>>> from the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>>>> factor in >>>> success. >>>>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and >>>>>> blindness is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is >>>>>> to deny the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are > unemployed. >>>>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve >>>>>> tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? >>>>>> Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not >>>>>> with the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person >>>>>> who has to be extra competitive to >>>> beat sighted applicants. >>>>>> >>>>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>>>> minimal as to be labeled a >>>> minor inconvenience. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog >>>>>> post on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>>> successful blind people >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you > think. >>>>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits >>>>>> do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you >>>>>> cite >>these traits? >>>>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a >>>>>> blind >>person. >>>>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior >>traits? >>>>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Phil >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40 >>>>>> e >>>>>> ar >>>>>> thlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40com >>>>>> c >>>>>> as >>>>>> t.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude% >>>>> 4 >>>>> 0g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>> % >>>> 40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0 >>>> gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.co >>m > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >>si.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 18:54:11 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:54:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> Message-ID: I felt that the organization was focusing on fund raising too much when they were doing the capetol campaigne for the jernigan instetute. i didn't particepate in this fund raising event then and I don't really particepate now in the fundraising. If it is for blind children or seniors then yes I particepate. I agree that the banquet has become more of prizes and socializing. The speech is still the highlight. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Hi Joe, Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the like. To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. Arielle On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > Hello all. > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, > live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all > mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > Thanks. > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without > the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > >> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >> was >> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >> >> of >> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >> leadership >> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >> spirit, >> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >> that >> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >> it >> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >> of >> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >> more >> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >> whom >> >> I >> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> fundraising campaigns. >> >> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> efforts >> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >> scope. >> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >> the >> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >> and >> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >> resources >> we've already had. >> >> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> professionals. >> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >> be >> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >> when >> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >> >> a >> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >> to >> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >> to >> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >> incapable of sustaining. >> >> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >> >> it >> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >> guide >> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >> own >> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >> you >> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >> to >> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >> will >> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >> or >> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >> exist. >> >> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >> happier, >> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> lesson >> in financial management to you. >> >> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >> never >> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >> provide >> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >> couldn't >> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >> at >> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >> strength. >> >> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >> the >> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >> the >> original question, my answer would be this: >> >> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >> and >> wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 19:03:26 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:03:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multipledisabilities? References: Message-ID: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not occurring. I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I also believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they have a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement and then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social purposes. Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more changes and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what happens. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multipledisabilities? Hi all, I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. Best, Arielle On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Joe and others, > > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is > wrong. Organizations are made up of > human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > to > be perfect. Still, some of what one > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good > while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more > funds than we used to have to raise. I > do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a > risk. When you look at our budget and > that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it > is certainly clear that legislative > successes are not > proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation > ACB passes or not, I recognize that the > ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > particularly more so now that our > problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, > for example. There is a lot of emphasis > on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be > accessible, for example. I happen to believe > this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > particularly on the job, all by itself. > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > limits > of current technology and explore ways > of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited > about > being able to drive a car, although I > certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I > got > very excited about the fact that as a > result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of > getting information that had not been > explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB > reader. At the time, it was something > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB > reader to the lists of registered people at > a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it > start to read the content. There have > probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one > kind or another through our efforts. We > have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, > teachers, and major players in the > technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, > and much of this would not have been > done even now if we hadn't tried it. > > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My > point is that a lot of this is about risks > and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts > will make a difference. Frankly, I am a > believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one > learns > from what does, because if you make a > mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those > thousand kids get into math or science > because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little > better > because of what we did with the KNFB > reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever > see > a reader that could use artificial > intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having > to > educate every person who writes > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us > to > control the Google self-driving cars > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least > some of the answers are yes, but at this > point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic > grass > roots organization that we were in the > 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor > was > it the right time for that. But it > also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as > we adjust to change. Joe, what you see > as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not > satisfied > to say that it has to be that way, > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an > organization. > > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers > won't > miraculously make life better, and > the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw > conclusions about such training based > upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and > challenges of seeking employment as a blind > person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in > Minnesota and I assume by our other > centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that > you have to have a set of tools to > approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do > more > than run people through training. > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating > that software must be accessible and that > one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, > but > it won't matter much if we don't have > training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we > don't get a good basic education. > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if > there are no braille instructors in a > given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to > success by itself, and you can't see any > given issue as completely standing on its own. > > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the > complex challenges we face with a larger > budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we > understand where we are going and how our > philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the > challenges of the world and what do we need > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone > asking questions like that outside of this > organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our > understanding of asking for help and looking for > our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is > risky, I think that branching out is a risk > worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all > members, though, to handle change. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>Arielle, >>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>Joe, >>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my >> own relationship with the NFB. while I > deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw > potential the organization has moving > forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to > cautious cynicism. I don't think this > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who > can see past the smoke and mirrors of > PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a > no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to > hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line > and > pander to those with political power > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still > within our local chapters. > >>Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>> drawings and the like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>> Hello all. >>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>> life, >>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>> Thanks. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>> without >>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joe" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>>> was >>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>> company >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>> real >>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>> leadership >>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>> spirit, >>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>> disappointing >>>>> that >>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>> found >>>>> it >>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>> dose >>>>> of >>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>>> more >>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>> frustrating >>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>> whom >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>> >>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>> the >>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>> efforts >>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>> scope. >>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>> or >>>>> the >>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>>> and >>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>> resources >>>>> we've already had. >>>>> >>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>> professionals. >>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>> will >>>>> be >>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>>> when >>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>> enough >>>>> to >>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>> NFB >>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>> true >>>>> to >>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>> ourselves >>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>> >>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>> want >>>>> >>>>> it >>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>> what >>>>> I >>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>> of >>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>>> guide >>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>> the >>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>>> own >>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>> give >>>>> you >>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>> had >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>>> will >>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>> is >>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>> Whether >>>>> or >>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it >>>>> to >>>>> exist. >>>>> >>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>> I've >>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>> happier, >>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>> lesson >>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>> never >>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>> provide >>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>> through >>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>> couldn't >>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>> excel >>>>> at >>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>> our >>>>> strength. >>>>> >>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>>> the >>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>>> the >>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>> >>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>> consume >>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>>> and >>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 19:06:57 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:06:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Samnet Socializer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003601cf4ddd$8dfe5400$a9fafc00$@gmail.com> Hi, Accessibility Anywhere is the best bang for your buck where Socializer is concerned; however, Socializer, for the moment, is PC-oriented. There is not yet a version of SAMNet for the Mac. If you're interested in learning more, check out the link below: http://bit.ly/1qE74jb Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laurel and Stockard Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 12:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Samnet Socializer Hi all, I'm using a mac with voiceover, and I'm looking at the posibility of buying Samnet Socializer from Serotek. Do any of you use this program? Particularly, do any of you use this with a mac? I'm particularly interested in their personal website and blog features that are supposedly part of the package. Do any of you use these? Feedback would be appreciated. Thanks Laurel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 19:09:41 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:09:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140401053543.01fbe468@comcast.net> Message-ID: <003b01cf4ddd$f177b8a0$d46729e0$@gmail.com> Back when I was the TABS president we regularly participated in the AER's state conferences. It was a good way to get face time with teachers and counselors, and it also brought us in contact with some parents of children with multiple disabilities. Anytime there are conferences or seminars for certain disabilities, it could be worth setting up a table to promote your student division and be the gateway to the NFB at large. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 12:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? Hello all, I was aware that there is a system for deafblind sign, but I'm just not sure of how to do it at this point. I've taken some American sign language and pigeon (just using the word signs, no letter spelling) so I know a lot of the visual symbols for things. I know the communication barrier doesn't necessarily have to be there, but I think it is so sad that it is as bad as it is, with few blind people able to communicate with the deaf or deafblind just because we don't know how to do it. I think a greater effort can be spent on bridging this gap, and some of that effort would have to be on our parts. I really want to learn deafblind signing, but perhaps that will unfortunately have to wait till I survive my bachelor's degree and earn my certification. I like the idea of adding a provision which includes more disabilities, or blind people with other factors going on. However, I also think that some of this work needs to just be forming relationships with like-minded organizations for people with other disabilities. If we can form a relationship with an Autism society, a deafness organization, and some mental health groups just to suggest a few, then our movement can be greater than we even think it can be now, and it will ultimately impact more people. In the process, those people with other disabilities will respect blindness as we respect it ourselves, and we can gain a mutual respect for their disabilities too. I know the NFB has collaborated with some other organizations on legislative stuff, but I think the relationship with other orgs can be extended past the goal of passing laws to protect minimum wages, etc. On 4/1/14, Jewel wrote: > You could also communicate with a deaf person by putting your hands > over theirs. It takes practice, but this is how I and a deafblind lady > communicated while at the rehabilitation center. > I agree that the philosophy is boxed in. We could add something about > it applying despite any other disabilities. > Jewel > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:38 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> Good morning, Kaiti, >> >> Growing up, one of my schoolmates, Corrina, had Usher's >> syndrom so was effectively deafblind. I remember it being difficult >> to communicate but still I am intrigued by deafblind communication. >> I'm sure you know tof an incredibly vibrant deafblind community. >> So, they have ways to communicate. >> More later... >> fir today, Car >> At 01:12 AM 4/1/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> This is a great topic to converse about, and one I feel strongly >>> about as someone who is going into a rehabilitation field. >>> >>> I have noticed for a long time that the NFB philosophy seems to be >>> boxed in. That is, when we talk about it in our conventions, it is >>> always framed as "The philosophy of blindness," when really, it is >>> something anyone with any disability can follow. I've said that I'm >>> going to strive to teach it to my music therapy patients, whether >>> they are fighting cancer, adjusting to an acquired disability, or >>> are otherwise chronically ill. Misunderstanding and misconceptions >>> aren't just the problem with blindness, they're the problems with >>> anything that is outside of the "norm," and I think we're doing >>> wrong if we box it in to just talking about blindness. It does a >>> great disservice to those with other disabilities who could benefit >>> from it, as well as those who are blind with a comorbid disability. >>> >>> I am set to give a talk about visual impairment to an intro to music >>> therapy class next week, as they are finishing a chapter in the >>> textbook about sensory disorders and disabilities. Having read that >>> book for that class last year, I know there are some things the book >>> got right, and some things that I disagree with. It will be >>> challenging for me to correct the misconceptions the first year >>> students have been taught, but that is the same challenge deaf >>> people face, and people with Autism Spectrum Disorders face, and >>> people with mental illness face. I think that, although as the >>> National Federation of the Blind we don't necessarily have a right >>> to try to gain as much expertese on these other things as blindness >>> per keeping relevant, but we can realize that our philosophy and >>> ideals can be bigger than blindness, and can be even further reaching. >>> >>> I had a talk with a deaf guy last semester. He came to speak to >>> music therapy club about deafness, and taught us some sign language. >>> Since I couldn't see what he was signing, I was unable to grasp a >>> lot of what he taught. Classmates next to me tried to help position >>> my hands, but they were busy trying to do the signs themselves. >>> I'll admit that the communication barrier between the speaker and I >>> made me a little frustrated, so after the meeting I went up to him >>> and explained my situation. I said that I had an interest in >>> learning sign language so I could communicate with deaf people, but >>> didn't know how to logistically pull it off. He taught me how to >>> sign, "Sorry, I can't see you," so that I could first tell the deaf >>> person I was blind (I didn't have my cane folded out when I was >>> sitting at a desk for the presentation, so since he didn't see it he >>> didn't know). Then he thought a bit about how the deaf person would >>> be able to communicate with me, since if they were unable to speak >>> themselves pen and paper wouldn't work. The best he could tell me >>> was that the finger spelling would do the job, but at least I would >>> be able to do the signing, which is more efficient. He said that >>> would show the deaf person I had taken the time to learn how to >>> communicate with them, even if they couldn't easily communicate with >>> me, and at least I wouldn't have the frustration of tediously >>> fingerspelling myself. It was cool, because afterwards he took a >>> real interest in my notetaker and the braille display. It would be >>> so cool if there weren't those separations between people with >>> disabilities, and we could all work for a common goal. >>> >>> I know at conventions some deafblind people feel kind of left out, >>> because all these blind people are whizzing past them and they can >>> easily get disoriented in the crowds. I think helping the deafblind >>> is a great start, but we do need to consider other disabilities, and >>> combinations of disabilities with blindness as well. I don't know >>> if I have an answer to how this can happen yet, but I think a big >>> chunk of it is practicing what we preach. If we want sighted people >>> to know the truth about blind people, and treat us as equals, we >>> need to do the same for the deaf, those with Autism Spectrum >>> Disorders and Developmental Disorders, and those with mental illness. >>> >>> Just my two cents worth... curious to see what others think. >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Joe wrote: >>> > Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the >>> > guide dog division has done that I find neat is that they've >>> > become a tangible resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I >>> > understand it, you can call a hotline and get concrete assistance >>> > with advocacy, training referrals, etc. >>> > Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. >>> > Peer assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is >>> > going to be in a better position to help than someone who's been >>> > there? >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> > >>> > Visit my blog: >>> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>> > Taurasi >>> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> > multiple disabilities? >>> > >>> > On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean >>> > that your family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run >>> > for a leadership position. That's not right, and I think we need >>> > to do some educational campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. >>> > Alll this talk of academic excellence could lead to people being >>> > left out: people with Turner's Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. >>> > Both have limits and one has an educational impairment along with >>> > it. We need to educate the people about mental illness in that it >>> > does not cause people to go "psychotic" >>> > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean >>> > we are all experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My >>> > parents thought I was delusional and placed me under a >>> > guardianship due to that and their lack of knowledge and >>> > understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and >>> > later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the >>> > problems, but with little knowledge, parents make decisions that >>> > aren't always the best, such as guardianship or incapacitation or >>> > placement in a group home that won't allow the person to talk with >>> > his/her friends. >>> > Beth >>> > >>> > On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >> Hi all, >>> >> >>> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind >>> >> folks today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, >>> >> the number of blind people with additional disabilities is likely >>> >> to increase, and more than that, the number of blind people with >>> >> additional disabilities who are getting educated and involved in >>> >> advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that, for the most >>> >> part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to the >>> >> needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also >>> >> think that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly >>> >> appreciate the contributions of all blind people. I think it's >>> >> particularly true when we think about including people with >>> >> intellectual disabilities and mental illnesses. These kinds of >>> >> conditions are stigmatized in general, but especially since our >>> >> leadership has tended to be highly educated and to stress >>> >> academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I >>> >> can see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental >>> >> illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've >>> >> known some blind folks who had trouble holding down leadership >>> >> positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able >>> >> to help them with. >>> >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more >>> >> divisions and groups within the NFB that focus on other >>> >> conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, but I have not heard >>> >> many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard about >>> >> efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes >>> >> sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique >>> >> concerns they'd want to discuss with each other. But to my >>> >> knowledge such a division has not been formed. I would love to >>> >> see a division for blind people with mental health conditions. >>> >> This is a huge segment of our population, and there are probably >>> >> unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>> >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there >>> >> just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. >>> >> But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>> >> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>> >> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action >>> >> and education about issues affecting these groups specifically, >>> >> even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope >>> >> that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from >>> >> you about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more >>> >> valued. While there is something to be said for going ahead and >>> >> running for leadership positions in order to change things, >>> >> change also needs to come from the organization as a whole if >>> >> folks with multiple disabilities are going to be elected and >>> >> welcomed in these positions. >>> >> >>> >> Best, >>> >> Arielle >>> >> >>> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>> >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings >>> >>> and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. >>> >>> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much >>> >>> a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>> >>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted >>> >>> in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. >>> >>> I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing >>> >>> that this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of >>> >>> the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >>> >>> it is certainly clear that legislative successes are not >>> >>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>> >>> legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >>> >>> contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >>> >>> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. >>> >>> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed >>> >>> that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>> >>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>> >>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand >>> >>> the limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >>> >>> information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about >>> >>> being able to drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind >>> >>> people can do that at some point. However, I got very excited >>> >>> about the fact that as a result of looking at the problem, we >>> >>> experimented with a number of ways of getting information that >>> >>> had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >>> >>> budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >>> >>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up >>> >>> a KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national >>> >>> convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >>> >>> start to read the content. There have probably been over a >>> >>> thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind or >>> >>> another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other >>> >>> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>> >>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of >>> >>> this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been >>> >>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>> >>> >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>> >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. >>> >>> We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make >>> >>> a difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost >>> >>> as much from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, >>> >>> because if you make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that >>> >>> approach. Will some of those thousand kids get into math or >>> >>> science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS >>> >>> product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB >>> >>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might >>> >>> we ever see a reader that could use artificial intelligence to >>> >>> interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to >>> >>> educate every person who writes software? Will some of our >>> >>> efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the >>> >>> Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? >>> >>> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this >>> >>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller >>> >>> dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the 80's >>> >>> couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>> >>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>> >>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we >>> >>> adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see >>> >>> as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it >>> >>> has to be that way, though. We can and must learn how to do >>> >>> better, as individuals and as an organization. >>> >>> >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>> >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing >>> >>> does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >>> >>> conclusions about such training based upon the marketing. >>> >>> Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and challenges of >>> >>> seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what is >>> >>> addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume >>> >>> by our other centers. Some of the point of such training is to >>> >>> encourage the idea that you have to have a set of tools to >>> >>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. >>> >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >>> >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>> >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>> >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, >>> >>> but it won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation >>> >>> and even training won't matter all that much if we don't get a >>> >>> good basic education. >>> >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that >>> >>> problem if there are no braille instructors in a given area. >>> >>> You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to >>> >>> success by itself, and you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to >>> >>> impact the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>> >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where >>> >>> we are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of >>> >>> what can we change to address the challenges of the world and >>> >>> what do we need the world to change is more important than ever, >>> >>> and I don't see anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>> >>> With >>> >>> our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>> >>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has >>> >>> set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that >>> >>> branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider >>> >>> impact. We need the help of all members, though, to handle >>> >>> change. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Arielle, >>> >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>>> Joe, >>> >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>> >>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>> >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate >>> >>> the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the >>> >>> passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious >>> >>> cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think >>> >>> the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and >>> >>> mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of >>> >>> blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always >>> >>> easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing >>> >>> to toe the line and pander to those with political power are >>> >>> treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following >>> >>>>> the Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you >>> >>>>> are saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I >>> >>>>> have also felt like the national convention is turning into >>> >>>>> more of a carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being >>> >>>>> given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on >>> >>>>> philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>> >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than >>> >>>>> it is now, and I understand that some national programs have >>> >>>>> been cut due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be >>> >>>>> steady reliable income sources. So NFB may be pushing >>> >>>>> fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a loss of >>> >>>>> programs and resources. >>> >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or >>> >>>>> refused membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it >>> >>>>> is truly shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective >>> >>>>> members choose not to join because they perceive hostility >>> >>>>> from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle choices. >>> >>>>> I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is >>> >>>>> reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all >>> >>>>> organization, and new members expecting to find that could be >>> >>>>> especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>> >>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain >>> >>>>> segments of the organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I >>> >>>>> will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and was >>> >>>>> relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt >>> >>>>> completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I >>> >>>>> would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>> >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>> >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>> >>>>> this is >>> > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Arielle >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>> >>>>>> Hello all. >>> >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live >>> >>>>>> my own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe >>> >>>>>> in a one size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what >>> >>>>>> the NFB does. >>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>> >>>>>> Mike >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind >>> >>>>>> Students mailing list >>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and >>> >>>>>> Seminary without the NFB's help, although it would have been >>> >>>>>> nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. >>> >>>>>>> While there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and >>> >>>>>>> felt glad to be in the company >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> of >>> >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that >>> >>>>>>> awaited me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, >>> >>>>>>> finished up my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off >>> >>>>>>> for DC to begin my business with the real world. I would >>> >>>>>>> never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>> >>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the >>> >>>>>>> weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>> >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>> >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>> >>>>>>> with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>> >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>> >>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>> >>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board >>> >>>>>>> meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by >>> >>>>>>> calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>> >>>>>>> it even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, >>> >>>>>>> our monthly dose of inspiration, featured several articles >>> >>>>>>> just to the focus of generating more ways to drum up more >>> >>>>>>> financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>> >>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called >>> >>>>>>> friends from whom >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I >>> >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to >>> >>>>>>> their NFB fundraising campaigns. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and >>> >>>>>>> forgot about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on >>> >>>>>>> to help lead development efforts for other nonprofits >>> >>>>>>> outside of the blindness field, also national in scope. >>> >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like >>> >>>>>>> the top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we >>> >>>>>>> focus on recruiting new blood and raising new money and >>> >>>>>>> forget about strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent >>> >>>>>>> blind professionals. >>> >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than >>> >>>>>>> I ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever >>> >>>>>>> achieve, but they shun the organization because they were >>> >>>>>>> turned away or because they were never welcomed in the first >>> >>>>>>> place. It's something I should have kept in mind when I had >>> >>>>>>> my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>> >>>>>>> much of >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> a >>> >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was >>> >>>>>>> reliable enough to get the job done. But, getting the job >>> >>>>>>> done should have really meant attracting and pulling in >>> >>>>>>> these men and women who could have made the NFB lots better, >>> >>>>>>> listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>> >>>>>>> to the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we >>> >>>>>>> find ourselves incapable of sustaining. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? >>> >>>>>>> I don't want >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> it >>> >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as >>> >>>>>>> well know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the >>> >>>>>>> college kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I >>> >>>>>>> want you to know the NFB banner will only guide your way so >>> >>>>>>> far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>> >>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it >>> >>>>>>> will be your own wits and talents that will earn your pay >>> >>>>>>> check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>> >>>>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> to >>> >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB >>> >>>>>>> president, and I will be the first to retract my words if he >>> >>>>>>> is brave enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we >>> >>>>>>> no longer live in a world where the NFB is necessary for >>> >>>>>>> collective momentum. >>> >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that. >>> >>>>>>> Whether >>> >>>>>>> or >>> >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly >>> >>>>>>> we want it to exist. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you >>> >>>>>>> know what I've found from the people I've met on that side >>> >>>>>>> of the house? They seem happier, and that's something we >>> >>>>>>> can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few victories they >>> >>>>>>> celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson >>> >>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told >>> >>>>>>> myself I would never become one of those bitter former NFB >>> >>>>>>> members. My only goal was to provide different perspectives >>> >>>>>>> to the new generation of leaders coming up through the >>> >>>>>>> ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>> >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't >>> >>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more >>> >>>>>>> of you excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of >>> >>>>>>> you there are, the greater our strength. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>> >>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in >>> >>>>>>> some lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer >>> >>>>>>> would be >>> >>>>>>> this: >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are >>> >>>>>>> humility to consume what they need to be successful, >>> >>>>>>> fortitude to turn away what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Joe >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> -- >>> >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>> >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>>>>>> info for >>> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingj >>> >>>>>>> acksa >>> >>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>>>>> info for >>> >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.c >>> >>>>>> apell >>> >>>>>> e%40frontier.com >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>>>>> info for >>> >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71 >>> >>>>>> %40gm >>> >>>>>> ail.com >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>>>> info for >>> >>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdf >>> >>>>> ly%40 >>> >>>>> gmail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>>> info for >>> >>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacob >>> >>>> son%4 >>> >>>> 0visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>> info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40 >>> >>> gmail >>> >>> .com >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for >>> > nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >>> >> 07%40 >>> >> comcast.net >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gma >>> > il.com >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> > for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet >>> > 104%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comca >>> st.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40g >> mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 19:17:49 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:17:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question About JAWS and Ms Access In-Reply-To: <2674C105-C4FC-4A95-A467-77AAB00E923A@att.net> References: <6502462421594D0DA20720F81DF8653F@OwnerPC> <2674C105-C4FC-4A95-A467-77AAB00E923A@att.net> Message-ID: Calling MS is a good idea! They need to hear the barriers we have. So, do you know the number for people with disabilities? would be a good place to start. -----Original Message----- From: Anjelina Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:27 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Question About JAWS and Ms Access Hi Cindy and Ashley, I also have to use MS Access for a project and am plannng to give FS a call today. If I learn of any tips I will pass them along. -Anjelina Sent from my iPad > On Mar 30, 2014, at 6:45 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > > I think Access became mostly inaccessible when they came out with 2010. > Sorry to say this. I'm afraid there's no solution > > -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:17 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Cc: Jobs for the Blind > Subject: [nabs-l] Question About JAWS and Ms Access > > Hi all, > > I have to use Access for my job and I am currently having trouble with > this. > > We have a database of study participants, and there is a table > consisting of several columns with information about each participant, > and each row is dedicated to one participant. I am supposed to be able > to click on the participant's id number which is contained in one of > the columns of the table to bring up their record to view and update > their contact information. I have tried everything I can think of, > pressing enter, space, right clicking and looking through the options, > using my JAWS cursor, etc., and I cannot bring up a participant's > record. Does anyone have any advice about activating items in tables > in Access? I have looked through the JAWS Access and table help and > only got keystrokes regarding reading information in tables, and > Google searches haven't come up with anything either. > > Thanks, > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 19:21:43 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:21:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblindpeople In-Reply-To: References: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com><8C7BADFFE02542E8B1B25FBEE4241DF6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Phil, Yes, nice summary. I think we are all saying you have to set goals, decide how to achieve them, and go for it to be successful. Whether we have to work harder or smarter than the average sighted person is debatable, but I think we all recognize the importance of good blindness skills, coping skills, and the passion to overcome barriers. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Phil Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 6:08 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblindpeople Hi all, wow thanks for your responses and diverse viewpoints. This is great discussion / debate. And certainly give me lots to think about. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. Everyone's view is at least backed by one example, namely your experience. And this is why I kept the question open to solicit diverse opinions. And if I must draw a common theme across all your views, it is this: A key characteristic of blind people who succeed at what they do is the ability to continually assess and learn about the environments, including social environments, physical environments, tech environments, and of course career environments, etc. in order to pick a suitable environment and pick the right thing to do that will maximize one's chance of success, and then do it by leveraging all the tools and people you can and wish to use, and use it in the most efficient way, and give your 100%. And to say it in two words: be strategic. I think that encompasses the jist of what everyone says. something like that. Phil On 3/30/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Joe, > I agree and you said what I could not figure out how to say. I think the > huge barriers such as the technology, transportation, and unemployment we > have are depictitions of reality. We cannot simply drive to an entry level > job such as receptionist and do it well; for one thing we cannot drive, > for > > another, we could not do most reception jobs I'm finding due to the > paperwork and checking IDS. > We can sure be successful in spite of the barriers and the world built for > the sighted, but it is no nuisance. > > That said, I believe that we should be able to do what we want to do and > not > > limit ourselves on perceived perceptions. > We can do much more than the sighted believe we can, and we just have to > muster the courage to get out there and participate amongst the sighted as > equals. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:39 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of > successfulblind > > people > > Arielle, > > Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not > merely > lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which we do not > always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, could, be a > non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did not slow down > our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who can move through > life > without experiencing frustration with the delays and detours at random > points along the way. In fact, I would submit that those few for whom > blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones working at the heights of the > blindness movement where it is easy to drum up platitudes of opportunity > and > analogies of blindness to a nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out > and raise money for the cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of > that leadership bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and > I > will take a motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but > there's success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches > and > then there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn > it. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of > successfulblind > people > > Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of > opportunity. > Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all > denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of > opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when things > are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a car, > etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. > Arielle > > On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: >> Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite >> speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way I >> interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main >> point in that speech was that real independence means getting things >> done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously >> high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly >> emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you >> accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and as >> long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech is >> easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some people > in the federation who don't quite live by it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>> successfulblind people >>> >>> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >>> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good morning, everyone, >>>> >>>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>>> getting >>> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >>> wrong with that? >>>> for today, Car >>>> >>>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance >>>>> anymore. >>> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >>> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >>> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >>> vision. >>>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news >>>>> and >>> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >>> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >>> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >>> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >>> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >>> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >>> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >>> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >>> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >>> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >>> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>>> passions. Its >>> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. >>> Go >>> out and achieve big things for you. >>>>> >>>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>>> field, >>> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>>> You are smart. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>> successfulblind people >>>>> >>>>> Phil, >>>>> >>>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>>> >>>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >>>>> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>>> factor in >>> success. >>>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >>>>> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny >>>>> the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. >>>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks >>>>> their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are >>>>> they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with >>>>> the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has >>>>> to be extra competitive to >>> beat sighted applicants. >>>>> >>>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>>> minimal as to be labeled a >>> minor inconvenience. >>>>> >>>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >>>>> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>>> >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>>>> blind people >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you >>>>> think. >>>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do >>>>> successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite > these traits? >>>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind > person. >>>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior > traits? >>>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e >>>>> ar >>>>> thlink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comc >>>>> as >>>>> t.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 19:52:29 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:52:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <80669E64118E4EF4B40FC17F40CD4443@HP30910210001> thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I have gotten e-mails from people too for fund raisers and I usually write back that it is good to hear from them and that I hope they are doing well. No mention of the fund raiser. The federation has lost many people because of the leadearship's view of the person. they have backed someone else that has the quallities that they want, and then that has turned out to bite them in the butt. thats why I have made it a point to not base my identity on the federation. I believe in the phillosophy and I like many of the programs that we have started. I have been burned too many times. So someone would ask why do I stay, I stay because I believe in what the movement stands for, and I also stay because it pisses lots of people off that don't see me as what they invision as a federationist. Lol! Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 10:25 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company of so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom I have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB fundraising campaigns. In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in scope. They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources we've already had. Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind professionals. I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the organization because they were turned away or because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of a mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of sustaining. So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want it to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had to be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management to you. I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 20:55:12 2014 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:55:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> <017201cf4d44$affe30a0$0ffa91e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Joe, this message was excellent. I couldn't agree more with you. That was actually going to be my first suggestion, forming a peer network of blind people who have other disabilities. I'm particularly interested in seeing such a hotline exist for those who are blind and mentally ill. While we're certainly free to call crisis lines if needed, or seek out therapy/medical intervention, I feel that there is often a divide between us and our sighted practitioners. For example, if you are suicidal and call a crisis line, assuming you're not on the verge of hurting yourself, most likely the volunteer is going to tell you things to do to distract yourself. They may very well tell you to get out of the house and do something to take their mind off how they're feeling. For the blind, that's not always easy or practical, particularly if you live in a rural area. But the helping person may just become frustrated with this explanation, and make judgments based on the fact that a blind person is living alone, which, in a situation like that, is much more stressful than the person might be able to handle at that moment in time. I believe that, in circumstances like these, it would be extremely helpful to have someone available to call who would be more sensitive to this kind of thing. Even in situations where the need is less urgent, it's very possible that a therapist you may be seeing doesn't always know how to deal with the areas where your blindness and mental illness overlap. I'm not trying to say that they won't make an effort, or be deliberately ignorant, but I feel that it's a distinct possibility that the therapist will either focus exclusively on your blindness when treating your mental illness, believing it to be the cause, because, well, who wouldn't be depressed about having no vision? Taht's how many sighted people think. Or they might focus exclusively on treating the symptoms, not necessarily realizing the day-to-day frustrations we as blind people face that can be stumbling blocks in our treatment. Again, there are therapists who achieve this balancing act, and those who, after some initial frustration and discussion with their clients, learn what their client needs and try to provide that to the best of their ability. But how great would it be to have a support network in which you could discuss the frustrations that being blind brings up during the course of your treatment, without having to break down those walls? Now, there are things that exist already, like a very well-run email list for those who are blind and mentally ill that I have personally taken part in. But sometimes, you need more than to just vent your spleen in writing. It would be nice to be able to be connected to resources. I know that I'm making this all sound very dire, and that the people on this hotline would have to be trained counselors. While this would certainly help, and I do think each volunteer should know about crisis counseling, not every situation would call for such heavy interventions. For example, I know that a lot of blind people, particularly teenagers, have suffered from that foot-in-mouth syndrome that comes from shooting off your mouth, not realizing that the person you're talking about is nearby and has heard every word you said. Let me elaborate. When I was about 14, I was sitting at a lunch table with my friends. I asked if a girl that I didn't particularly like was sitting with us. my friends said no. It turned out that they did this deliberately so that I would talk about her while she was sitting there. When I confronted them later, they got angry with me, saying it was my fault for not liking her and how you should never say anything bad about anyone. Whoever you ascribe blame to in this situation, what would have resolved this for me would have been being able to discuss my humiliation with a fellow blind person who had perhaps been in a similar situation, or known someone who had. If I'd known that other people have done it, I might not still be faced with the problem, 10 years later, of wincing every time I'm talking with someone, and they ask me if a particular person is around. Even though the question is usually innocent, if the person in question is in the room with me or within hearing range, I find it difficult to even say so. I learned much later that others have done this accidentally, but now it's too late to reverse that damaging effect quickly. I think that the NFB would be in a unique position to provide such a service. Those in the NFB are seen as strong and would have the power to promote this service far and wide. No matter anyone's feelings about the organization itself, no one's going to turn down a much-needed service. It's kind of like how blind people of any affiliation truly appreciate the Newsline service. I sincerely hope that one day this will actually come to pass. From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 21:11:23 2014 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:11:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> References: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi, This is definitely another area where the NFB could do more to help for sure. I think that legislation needs to be A. taken seriously, and B. passed that would make it less likely for the kinds of things you describe in your messages to take place. People who have multiple disabilities are often seen as incompetent, and a judge is much more likely to agree with this if the person has an intellectual disability or mental illness. I have personally seen this in action. It is something that truly sickens me. My current partner used to date a girl who was blind and had a mental illness. Her parents weren't originally from this country, and cultural clashes caused them to restrict her quite a bit, even as an adult. The courts granted them power of attorney over her without batting an eye, at least this is how it was explained to me. I spoke with her once, and she seemed intelligent, if desperate to escape her situation, but she obviously had no legal recourse. Had her parents died, I have no doubt she would have ended up in a group home and, therefore, probably in an even worse situation. Why am I writing all of this in the past tense? Because, about a year and a half ago, she killed herself. She couldn't take the way she was living anymore. I also knew someone who has Asperger's syndrome and is blind, and his parents tried to claim power of attorney of him as well, but I suppose not all judges are stupid, because they lost the case. It has, understandably, put quite a rift in their family. I believe that this kind of thing goes on all too often and must be addressed. No one deserves to be chained like a pitbull when they're perfectly aware of what's going on. It's blatant cruelty. It's one thing if a person's disability is so debilitating or progressive that they can't function independently. It's quite another when the person is of sound mind, aware that they're being unfairly restricted, and knows that the law isn't on their side. From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 22:48:03 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:48:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F85257C-76BA-47D4-B7E5-299CE9A55891@gmail.com> Hi Arielle, you bring up some great points. I am of the opinion that special interest groups or divisions are a good way to organize a large body of folks who feel a need is not getting met currently in the organization. People can find a support system where they thought none existed. Like the needs of diabetics and guide dog users are unique and best understood by those folks, blind persons with multiple disabilities have different needs and likely face different challenges that are best met with collective action. my only real interaction with the deaf-blind division was a request from one of it’s members to have members of the community service group assist members of their division with matters related to Translating information gathered in convention break-out sessions. I suppose that while they have our (larger federation) support with relation to FM devices, this only applies at general session and additional support is needed during the course of convention. This leads me to believe that maybe the division is not quite as organized on the whole, but a division is being organized in florida. My point is, organizing a division isn’t easy stuff (speaking from personal experience) and maybe a group makes more sense. organizing your thoughts, concerns, and working with our national office and president to address these concerns might very well have more strength with a group of folks working towards the desired goal (collective action anyone?). I think the issue of integrating our fellow federationests with multiple disabilities into the fold is something that we can do better with, and imagine that if it’s not a part of our future plans, we can certainly make it a priority of ours as we approach the dawn of a new administration and approach the celebration of 75 years since our founding. If it’s something we want to do, I’m happy to be a part of making it happen, should their be a true desire for it. Darian On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > help them with. > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Joe and others, >> >> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is >> wrong. Organizations are made up of >> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to >> be perfect. Still, some of what one >> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more >> funds than we used to have to raise. I >> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a >> risk. When you look at our budget and >> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it >> is certainly clear that legislative >> successes are not >> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation >> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >> particularly more so now that our >> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, >> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> particularly on the job, all by itself. >> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the limits >> of current technology and explore ways >> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about >> being able to drive a car, although I >> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I got >> very excited about the fact that as a >> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of >> getting information that had not been >> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB >> reader. At the time, it was something >> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >> reader to the lists of registered people at >> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >> start to read the content. There have >> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >> kind or another through our efforts. We >> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >> teachers, and major players in the >> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, >> and much of this would not have been >> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >> point is that a lot of this is about risks >> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts >> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one learns >> from what does, because if you make a >> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >> thousand kids get into math or science >> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better >> because of what we did with the KNFB >> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see >> a reader that could use artificial >> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to >> educate every person who writes >> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us to >> control the Google self-driving cars >> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >> some of the answers are yes, but at this >> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >> roots organization that we were in the >> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was >> it the right time for that. But it >> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as >> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied >> to say that it has to be that way, >> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an >> organization. >> >> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers won't >> miraculously make life better, and >> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >> conclusions about such training based >> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >> Minnesota and I assume by our other >> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that >> you have to have a set of tools to >> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do more >> than run people through training. >> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating >> that software must be accessible and that >> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but >> it won't matter much if we don't have >> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we >> don't get a good basic education. >> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >> there are no braille instructors in a >> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to >> success by itself, and you can't see any >> given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >> complex challenges we face with a larger >> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >> understand where we are going and how our >> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >> challenges of the world and what do we need >> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >> asking questions like that outside of this >> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >> understanding of asking for help and looking for >> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >> members, though, to handle change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>> Arielle, >>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >>> Joe, >>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my >>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >> potential the organization has moving >> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who >> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and >> pander to those with political power >> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still >> within our local chapters. >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>> drawings and the like. >>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>> life, >>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>> list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>> without >>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>>>> was >>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>> company >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>> real >>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>> leadership >>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>> spirit, >>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>> disappointing >>>>>> that >>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>> found >>>>>> it >>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>> dose >>>>>> of >>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>>>> more >>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>> frustrating >>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>>> whom >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>> the >>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>> efforts >>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>>> scope. >>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>>> or >>>>>> the >>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>>>> and >>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>> resources >>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>> professionals. >>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>> will >>>>>> be >>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>>>> when >>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>> enough >>>>>> to >>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>>> NFB >>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>> true >>>>>> to >>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>> ourselves >>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>> want >>>>>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what >>>>>> I >>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>>> of >>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>>>> guide >>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>> the >>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>>>> own >>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>> give >>>>>> you >>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>>> had >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>>>> will >>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>> is >>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>> Whether >>>>>> or >>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it >>>>>> to >>>>>> exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>> I've >>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>> happier, >>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>> lesson >>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>>> never >>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>> provide >>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>> through >>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>> couldn't >>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>> excel >>>>>> at >>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>>> our >>>>>> strength. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>>>> the >>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>>>> the >>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>> >>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>> consume >>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>>>> and >>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 23:28:35 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:28:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> Message-ID: Hi all, There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I’m sorry if I somehow repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get quite caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two things primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in hand with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take different things from the organization. Some love what we do and want to be a part of it, others can’t give time but can give money, some not money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want to be members with no responsibility in the organization. Honestly, I think it’s very important that we continue to make an effort to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over time will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. Some of us feel like we don’t have a real connection with people in our chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we need to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can do and simply giving up won’t solve the problem. It of course is totally possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn’t very receptive to new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation stands for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is very important, and I hope that everyone here does this. it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the movement. some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of us know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do all of these things are important. Darian On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > drawings and the like. > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative > could be a loss of programs and resources. > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, > this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > > Arielle > > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >> Hello all. >> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> Thanks. >> Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>> was >>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >>> >>> of >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>> leadership >>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>> spirit, >>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>> >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>> that >>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>> it >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >>> of >>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>> more >>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>> >>> I >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>> fundraising campaigns. >>> >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>> efforts >>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>> scope. >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >>> the >>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>> and >>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>> resources >>> we've already had. >>> >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>> professionals. >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >>> be >>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>> when >>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>> >>> a >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>> to >>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>> to >>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>> incapable of sustaining. >>> >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >>> >>> it >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>> guide >>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>> own >>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>> you >>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>> >>> to >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>> will >>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >>> or >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>> exist. >>> >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>> happier, >>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>> lesson >>> in financial management to you. >>> >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>> never >>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>> provide >>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>> couldn't >>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>> at >>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>> strength. >>> >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>> the >>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>> the >>> original question, my answer would be this: >>> >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>> and >>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 1 23:37:04 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:37:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> Message-ID: I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. Arielle On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under > served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not occurring. > > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse > population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I also > > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they have > > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to > assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and > wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement and > > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the > federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the > leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social purposes. > > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more changes > > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what > happens. > Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > multipledisabilities? > > > Hi all, > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > help them with. > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Joe and others, >> >> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >> is >> wrong. Organizations are made up of >> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> >> to >> be perfect. Still, some of what one >> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >> more >> funds than we used to have to raise. I >> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is >> a >> risk. When you look at our budget and >> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >> it >> is certainly clear that legislative >> successes are not >> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >> legislation >> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >> feel >> particularly more so now that our >> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, >> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> particularly on the job, all by itself. >> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >> limits >> of current technology and explore ways >> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >> about >> being able to drive a car, although I >> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >> got >> very excited about the fact that as a >> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >> of >> getting information that had not been >> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB >> reader. At the time, it was something >> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >> reader to the lists of registered people at >> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >> start to read the content. There have >> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >> kind or another through our efforts. We >> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >> teachers, and major players in the >> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, >> and much of this would not have been >> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >> point is that a lot of this is about risks >> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts >> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >> learns >> from what does, because if you make a >> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >> thousand kids get into math or science >> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >> better >> because of what we did with the KNFB >> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >> see >> a reader that could use artificial >> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having >> >> to >> educate every person who writes >> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us >> >> to >> control the Google self-driving cars >> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >> some of the answers are yes, but at this >> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >> grass >> roots organization that we were in the >> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor >> was >> it the right time for that. But it >> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >> as >> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >> satisfied >> to say that it has to be that way, >> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an >> organization. >> >> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >> won't >> miraculously make life better, and >> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >> conclusions about such training based >> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >> Minnesota and I assume by our other >> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >> that >> you have to have a set of tools to >> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >> more >> than run people through training. >> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating >> that software must be accessible and that >> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, >> but >> it won't matter much if we don't have >> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we >> don't get a good basic education. >> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >> there are no braille instructors in a >> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to >> success by itself, and you can't see any >> given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >> complex challenges we face with a larger >> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >> understand where we are going and how our >> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >> challenges of the world and what do we need >> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >> asking questions like that outside of this >> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >> understanding of asking for help and looking for >> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >> members, though, to handle change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>>Arielle, >>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >>>Joe, >>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>> my >>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >> potential the organization has moving >> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who >> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line >> and >> pander to those with political power >> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still >> within our local chapters. >> >>>Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>> drawings and the like. >>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>> life, >>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>> mailing >>>>> list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>> without >>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>>>>> I >>>>>> was >>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>> company >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>>>>> a >>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>>>>> a >>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>> real >>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>> leadership >>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>> spirit, >>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>> disappointing >>>>>> that >>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>> found >>>>>> it >>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>> dose >>>>>> of >>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>> generating >>>>>> more >>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>> frustrating >>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>>> whom >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>> the >>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>> efforts >>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>>> scope. >>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>>> or >>>>>> the >>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>> blood >>>>>> and >>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>> resources >>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>> professionals. >>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>> will >>>>>> be >>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>> mind >>>>>> when >>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>> much >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>> enough >>>>>> to >>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>>> NFB >>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>> true >>>>>> to >>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>> ourselves >>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>> want >>>>>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>> what >>>>>> I >>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>>> of >>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>> only >>>>>> guide >>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>> the >>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>> your >>>>>> own >>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>> give >>>>>> you >>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>>> had >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>>>>> I >>>>>> will >>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>> this >>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>> is >>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>> Whether >>>>>> or >>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>> it >>>>>> to >>>>>> exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>> I've >>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>> happier, >>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>> lesson >>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>>> never >>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>> provide >>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>> through >>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>> couldn't >>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>> excel >>>>>> at >>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>>> our >>>>>> strength. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>> be >>>>>> the >>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>> answer >>>>>> the >>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>> >>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>> consume >>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>> not, >>>>>> and >>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From mikgephart at icloud.com Tue Apr 1 23:55:28 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 19:55:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question Message-ID: Hi, I have been asked if I know of the National Association of the blind. I do not, and no one who I have asked does either. Does any one on the list know of the organization? Mikayla Sent from my iPad From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 00:11:16 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:11:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <24E23ADB-A8F2-4F48-94D0-657ED54FA19E@gmail.com> For as long as I’ve been a part of the Federation, I’ve been told that the blind are essentially a cross-section of society. it would seem to me that denying an LGBT group the right to organize in much the same way other groups do would go against that belief and either forces members to either leave the federation or hide them selves in the shadows (in a manner of speaking). However, I guess we can’t be too surprised by such actions as they are simply a reflection of general sentiments towards the LGBT community in larger society. This is certainly not to say that such actions are right or wrong, but is to say they exist. The question next becomes “what do we wish to do about it?” as we look to the future and see the change in leadership and the Branding that takes place, maybe this is where we start to re-approach these questions, concerns and issues. To what makes a division, I’ve been told that you first need to consult the president, then you need to have a group of folks that want the division and are interested in the work of the division (fifteen people is good). Then you need to have an organizing meeting to work out the details of a constitution (working with the president or someone they send in his place). The members present have to agree on that constitution, have elections of officers an the constitution along with officers need to be submitted to the board of directors for them to approve it. if they approve it then you have a division. hth Darian ? On Apr 1, 2014, at 4:37 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > Arielle > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the >> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not occurring. >> >> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse >> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I also >> >> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they have >> >> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. >> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement and >> >> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social purposes. >> >> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more changes >> >> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what >> happens. >> Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> multipledisabilities? >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> help them with. >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >>> is >>> wrong. Organizations are made up of >>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>> >>> to >>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >>> more >>> funds than we used to have to raise. I >>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is >>> a >>> risk. When you look at our budget and >>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >>> it >>> is certainly clear that legislative >>> successes are not >>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>> legislation >>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >>> feel >>> particularly more so now that our >>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, >>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> limits >>> of current technology and explore ways >>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >>> about >>> being able to drive a car, although I >>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >>> got >>> very excited about the fact that as a >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>> of >>> getting information that had not been >>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB >>> reader. At the time, it was something >>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>> reader to the lists of registered people at >>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >>> start to read the content. There have >>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>> kind or another through our efforts. We >>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >>> teachers, and major players in the >>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, >>> and much of this would not have been >>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >>> point is that a lot of this is about risks >>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts >>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >>> learns >>> from what does, because if you make a >>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >>> thousand kids get into math or science >>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >>> better >>> because of what we did with the KNFB >>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >>> see >>> a reader that could use artificial >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having >>> >>> to >>> educate every person who writes >>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us >>> >>> to >>> control the Google self-driving cars >>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >>> some of the answers are yes, but at this >>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >>> grass >>> roots organization that we were in the >>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor >>> was >>> it the right time for that. But it >>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >>> as >>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>> satisfied >>> to say that it has to be that way, >>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an >>> organization. >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >>> won't >>> miraculously make life better, and >>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >>> conclusions about such training based >>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >>> Minnesota and I assume by our other >>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >>> that >>> you have to have a set of tools to >>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >>> more >>> than run people through training. >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating >>> that software must be accessible and that >>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, >>> but >>> it won't matter much if we don't have >>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we >>> don't get a good basic education. >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >>> there are no braille instructors in a >>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to >>> success by itself, and you can't see any >>> given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >>> complex challenges we face with a larger >>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >>> understand where we are going and how our >>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >>> challenges of the world and what do we need >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >>> asking questions like that outside of this >>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >>> understanding of asking for help and looking for >>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >>> members, though, to handle change. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>>> Arielle, >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>>> Joe, >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>>> my >>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >>> potential the organization has moving >>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who >>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line >>> and >>> pander to those with political power >>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still >>> within our local chapters. >>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>> life, >>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> mailing >>>>>> list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>> without >>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>> company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>> real >>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>> found >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>> dose >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>> generating >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>>>> whom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>> blood >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>> resources >>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>> mind >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>> true >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> guide >>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>> give >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>> provide >>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>> through >>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>> excel >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>> answer >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>> consume >>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>> not, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 00:54:47 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:54:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people withmultipledisabilities? References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <0FE0AFDBB30D4E6A8A13DB68C26EEBA4@HP30910210001> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen again. Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling of the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters and state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of backing the wrong person. Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up in the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people withmultipledisabilities? I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. Arielle On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under > served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > occurring. > > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse > population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I > also > > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they > have > > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to > assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and > wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement > and > > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the > federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the > leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > purposes. > > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > changes > > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what > happens. > Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > multipledisabilities? > > > Hi all, > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > help them with. > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Joe and others, >> >> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >> is >> wrong. Organizations are made up of >> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> >> to >> be perfect. Still, some of what one >> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >> more >> funds than we used to have to raise. I >> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is >> a >> risk. When you look at our budget and >> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >> it >> is certainly clear that legislative >> successes are not >> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >> legislation >> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >> feel >> particularly more so now that our >> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, >> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> particularly on the job, all by itself. >> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >> limits >> of current technology and explore ways >> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >> about >> being able to drive a car, although I >> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >> got >> very excited about the fact that as a >> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >> of >> getting information that had not been >> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB >> reader. At the time, it was something >> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >> reader to the lists of registered people at >> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >> start to read the content. There have >> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >> kind or another through our efforts. We >> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >> teachers, and major players in the >> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, >> and much of this would not have been >> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >> point is that a lot of this is about risks >> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts >> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >> learns >> from what does, because if you make a >> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >> thousand kids get into math or science >> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >> better >> because of what we did with the KNFB >> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >> see >> a reader that could use artificial >> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having >> >> to >> educate every person who writes >> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us >> >> to >> control the Google self-driving cars >> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >> some of the answers are yes, but at this >> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >> grass >> roots organization that we were in the >> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor >> was >> it the right time for that. But it >> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >> as >> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >> satisfied >> to say that it has to be that way, >> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an >> organization. >> >> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >> won't >> miraculously make life better, and >> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >> conclusions about such training based >> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >> Minnesota and I assume by our other >> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >> that >> you have to have a set of tools to >> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >> more >> than run people through training. >> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating >> that software must be accessible and that >> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, >> but >> it won't matter much if we don't have >> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we >> don't get a good basic education. >> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >> there are no braille instructors in a >> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to >> success by itself, and you can't see any >> given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >> complex challenges we face with a larger >> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >> understand where we are going and how our >> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >> challenges of the world and what do we need >> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >> asking questions like that outside of this >> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >> understanding of asking for help and looking for >> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >> members, though, to handle change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>>Arielle, >>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >>>Joe, >>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>> my >>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >> potential the organization has moving >> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who >> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line >> and >> pander to those with political power >> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still >> within our local chapters. >> >>>Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>> drawings and the like. >>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>> life, >>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>> mailing >>>>> list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>> without >>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>>>>> I >>>>>> was >>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>> company >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>>>>> a >>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>>>>> a >>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>> real >>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>> leadership >>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>> spirit, >>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>> disappointing >>>>>> that >>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>> found >>>>>> it >>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>> dose >>>>>> of >>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>> generating >>>>>> more >>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>> frustrating >>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>>> whom >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>> the >>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>> efforts >>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>>> scope. >>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>>> or >>>>>> the >>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>> blood >>>>>> and >>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>> resources >>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>> professionals. >>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>> will >>>>>> be >>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>> mind >>>>>> when >>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>> much >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>> enough >>>>>> to >>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>>> NFB >>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>> true >>>>>> to >>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>> ourselves >>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>> want >>>>>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>> what >>>>>> I >>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>>> of >>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>> only >>>>>> guide >>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>> the >>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>> your >>>>>> own >>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>> give >>>>>> you >>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>>> had >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>>>>> I >>>>>> will >>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>> this >>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>> is >>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>> Whether >>>>>> or >>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>> it >>>>>> to >>>>>> exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>> I've >>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>> happier, >>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>> lesson >>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>>> never >>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>> provide >>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>> through >>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>> couldn't >>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>> excel >>>>>> at >>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>>> our >>>>>> strength. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>> be >>>>>> the >>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>> answer >>>>>> the >>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>> >>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>> consume >>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>> not, >>>>>> and >>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 02:30:32 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people withmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: <0FE0AFDBB30D4E6A8A13DB68C26EEBA4@HP30910210001> References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> <0FE0AFDBB30D4E6A8A13DB68C26EEBA4@HP30910210001> Message-ID: Hello all, In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. Sorry for the rant. On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen > again. > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they > just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions > are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling of > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters and > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what > happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of > backing the wrong person. > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up in > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of > the federation. Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > withmultipledisabilities? > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > Arielle > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the >> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >> occurring. >> >> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse >> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I >> also >> >> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they >> have >> >> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >> people. >> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement >> and >> >> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >> purposes. >> >> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >> changes >> >> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what >> happens. >> Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> multipledisabilities? >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> help them with. >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >>> is >>> wrong. Organizations are made up of >>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely >>> going >>> >>> to >>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >>> more >>> funds than we used to have to raise. I >>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is >>> a >>> risk. When you look at our budget and >>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >>> it >>> is certainly clear that legislative >>> successes are not >>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>> legislation >>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >>> feel >>> particularly more so now that our >>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take >>> accessibility, >>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> limits >>> of current technology and explore ways >>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >>> about >>> being able to drive a car, although I >>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >>> got >>> very excited about the fact that as a >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>> of >>> getting information that had not been >>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB >>> reader. At the time, it was something >>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>> reader to the lists of registered people at >>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >>> start to read the content. There have >>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of >>> one >>> kind or another through our efforts. We >>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >>> teachers, and major players in the >>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or >>> 90's, >>> and much of this would not have been >>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >>> point is that a lot of this is about risks >>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these >>> efforts >>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >>> learns >>> from what does, because if you make a >>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >>> thousand kids get into math or science >>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >>> better >>> because of what we did with the KNFB >>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >>> see >>> a reader that could use artificial >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>> having >>> >>> to >>> educate every person who writes >>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for >>> us >>> >>> to >>> control the Google self-driving cars >>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >>> some of the answers are yes, but at this >>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >>> grass >>> roots organization that we were in the >>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor >>> was >>> it the right time for that. But it >>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >>> as >>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>> satisfied >>> to say that it has to be that way, >>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >>> an >>> organization. >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >>> won't >>> miraculously make life better, and >>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >>> conclusions about such training based >>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >>> Minnesota and I assume by our other >>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >>> that >>> you have to have a set of tools to >>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >>> more >>> than run people through training. >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating >>> that software must be accessible and that >>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, >>> but >>> it won't matter much if we don't have >>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if >>> we >>> don't get a good basic education. >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >>> there are no braille instructors in a >>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead >>> to >>> success by itself, and you can't see any >>> given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >>> complex challenges we face with a larger >>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >>> understand where we are going and how our >>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >>> challenges of the world and what do we need >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >>> asking questions like that outside of this >>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >>> understanding of asking for help and looking for >>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >>> members, though, to handle change. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>>>Arielle, >>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>>>Joe, >>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>>> my >>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >>> potential the organization has moving >>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >>> who >>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line >>> and >>> pander to those with political power >>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still >>> within our local chapters. >>> >>>>Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>> life, >>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> mailing >>>>>> list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>> without >>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>> RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>> company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>> real >>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>> found >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>> dose >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>> generating >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> whom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>> top, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>> blood >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>> resources >>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>> mind >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>> true >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>> verge >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> guide >>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>> give >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>> always >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>> few >>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>> provide >>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>> through >>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>> excel >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>> greater >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>> answer >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>> consume >>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>> not, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 02:32:43 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:32:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, Personally, I've never heard of such a thing before, but I did google it. Apparently it's like the NFB counterpart based in India. Hope this helps. On 4/1/14, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > Hi, > I have been asked if I know of the National Association of the blind. I do > not, and no one who I have asked does either. Does any one on the list know > of the organization? > Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 02:39:36 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:39:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com><7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> <504FAFB9-ECBC-4DE4-BC3F-B37BC900A88D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't particepate in the bashing of either organization. I have lots of friends in the aCB and we respect each other's choice of organization. I have my own thoughts concerning the ACB. However, I am not going to bash them just for bashing sake. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Principato" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB This is exactly the problem I have with the way some within the organization play the political game. The feud with the ACB is nothing but a distraction. It's a tool to give a cub set of members something to rally behind, because nothing says "I'm a dedicated member of the in-group" like sharing a common out-group rival. And why do you need a computer with internet connection for verification, simply to be a respectful individual and hear a colleague's proposal? Stating that you run a company is not by any means sufficient to scam anyone. And you can always check when you get home if you're so inclined, but to turn them away entirely and claim it is because your laptop isn't handy makes me suspect another motive for turning away a member of the out-group. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:47 PM, "Peter Donahue" > wrote: > > > Good afternoon everyone, > > I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who runs > from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of serving > in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. People are > only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't find other ways > to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than becoming or remaining > lion chasers. > > The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being > offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be NFB > members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get over > it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, becoming a > better traveler will help you become more independent and create new > career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of help regardless > of whose camp they come from. > > As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like to > bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served > notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do > well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a > few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the > conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them > pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in > this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive > proposition. > > On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair for > those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. Some of > us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt to harm > their display or interfear with their activities in any way. They did not > return the favor. One year several of their members tried to knock over > our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president > at the time should have had the backbone to notify show officials and have > them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of these > ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new company we may be > interested in learning about. Since we did not have a laptop with an > Internet connection present to verify his story or not we were unable to > do anything about it. Had we searched for the name of his company and > found no reference to it online it's possible we could have had him kicked > out for promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we have no > patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to promote a > fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. The individual I > referred to in this paragraph has served as the Alamo Council of the > Blind's President. > > On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and > services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for > example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to ride > in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. Yes I > know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind why we've > taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best summarized in a > paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin Tom Conners: > "That there may never elsewhere be, > Another Philadelphia tragedy, > Another philadelphia tragety." > > The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals were > involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. > Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the blind helped > lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance against those > who have nothing better to do than to run away from battles, sit on > fences, etc there has never been another incident of that kind involving > us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took > action prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to > our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. > > Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our > programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this is > America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as they > see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of others?They > attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the > way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin a similar program > and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The Braille > Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. > > One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind > community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to > all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria > these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling > like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. Again > this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone wishes to > be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need they need to > meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host agency decides > that immersion training is to be used in the operation of a particular > program or service anyone wishing to partner with this agency will need to > endorse immersion training or they will not be considered as a venture > partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in the operation of a program > or service offered by a blindness agency that chooses to use immersion > training they'll need to over hall their philosophy and adopt immersion > training as a viable way to operate a program. If they're unwilling to do > that they will be filtered and would do well not to complain that they > were left out of consideration and would do well to refrain from trying to > undermind the activities of such an agency because they were unwilling to > adapt their approach and philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs > of the blind. Again we have no patience with losers according to our > standards! > > As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to > the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the > NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become yet > we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll land > that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge blind > individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop multiple > income channels should something happen to your primary income source and > so you will have the funds to support causes such as the activities of the > NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a blind child in our area > to encourage her to do this so she will be bettter able to meet her blind > child's needs as she progresses through school and college and to have > financial resources that will last her for her entire life instead of just > 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high unemployment rate we > face. > > And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the > refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children > and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a few. > The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children to > develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school district is > unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can hire someone > to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for another blind > individual. If necessary they could home-school their blind child and give > him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public schools. > Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person to attend one of > our centers since we urged them and their families to create ,multiple > income streams they could pay for it themselves and to Hell with the rehab > system. The more financial resources you have at your disposal that you > can control the better you can provide for your blind child or fund the > training you yourself wish to obtain. > > We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. > Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're heeding > the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in one > basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y > for short understand the value of this advice and are creating multiple > income streams for themselves should something happen to them or their > career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a > part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals > should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need to > become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons and their > families to do likewise. > > > Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In the > late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in a > well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level of > success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of the > products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet portals in > which one can transact business, yet this individual and his wife built an > empire using this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our > accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with > the company in question to insure that this is so and they have greatly > appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would think other blind > individuals would have followed his lead in large numbers given the > technology and services now available to those persuing careers in the > direct selling industry. We find this state of affairs sad and shameful! > This is something that can change in the years ahead. It's not too late. > Anyone wanting more information about such opportunities is strongly > advised to seek it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like > the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread > information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, false, and > misleading. We're neither talking about your grandmother's business > opportunity or NFB. > > > > If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to change > the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to career > options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last them a > lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row when those > years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice that will allow > its members and others to have the resources needed to support its > programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a deasent quality of > life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. > > Peter Donahue > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 02:39:57 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:39:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive Message-ID: <4C36EB696E8B490EA6018B67D0D47E6E@Helga> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, is it true that you can put the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in order to take it around and use it in other computers that don’t have the software? And if it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way that I can put it in my thumb drive? I’m just wondering since I want to see and check my mom’s computer or other friend’s computer that doesn’t have JAWS the Software, so that I can use it. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 02:43:09 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:43:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive In-Reply-To: <4C36EB696E8B490EA6018B67D0D47E6E@Helga> References: <4C36EB696E8B490EA6018B67D0D47E6E@Helga> Message-ID: Hi Helga, I'm not a computer guru, so I'll admit I may be wrong on this; but I don't think you can do this with JAWS. However, you can do it with NVDA, which is a free screenreader you can download and install to a flashdrive. I use a flashdrive with NVDA on it so I don't have to worry about finding an inaccessible computer when I study at the library, and it works really well. HTH. On 4/1/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, is it true > that you can put the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in order to take > it around and use it in other computers that don't have the software? And if > it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way that I can put it in my thumb > drive? I'm just wondering since I want to see and check my mom's computer or > other friend's computer that doesn't have JAWS the Software, so that I can > use it. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some > suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and > God bless!! -- Kaiti From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 03:01:27 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 23:01:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive In-Reply-To: References: <4C36EB696E8B490EA6018B67D0D47E6E@Helga> Message-ID: <6B5EE5159B9845B2B1FDE954EDF5517F@Helga> Hi Kaiti, this is Helga. I just wanted to ask you, where do I find the NVDA software in order to download it and put it in a thumb drive? I'm just wondering. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 10:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive Hi Helga, I'm not a computer guru, so I'll admit I may be wrong on this; but I don't think you can do this with JAWS. However, you can do it with NVDA, which is a free screenreader you can download and install to a flashdrive. I use a flashdrive with NVDA on it so I don't have to worry about finding an inaccessible computer when I study at the library, and it works really well. HTH. On 4/1/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, is it > true > that you can put the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in order to > take > it around and use it in other computers that don't have the software? And > if > it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way that I can put it in my thumb > drive? I'm just wondering since I want to see and check my mom's computer > or > other friend's computer that doesn't have JAWS the Software, so that I can > use it. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some > suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and > God bless!! -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 03:34:00 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 21:34:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people withmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> <0FE0AFDBB30D4E6A8A13DB68C26EEBA4@HP30910210001> Message-ID: Hi Kaiti and all, The national convention usually includes one invocation from a Jew, usually an Orthodox Jewish prayer. But all the others I remember hearing have been Christian prayers. It would be great if Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or other religious representatives were recruited to lead invocations. Personally, I feel that religious and secular business should be separate in this country and part of that means not including communal prayers as part of a secular meeting (a moment of silence where everyone could pray or not pray individually as they chose might be more appropriate). But that's my opinion and I know it is politically charged. I don't think the NFB takes any kind of religious position and nor should it, but it would be great if such decisions about how to handle prayer at convention, and similar issues, were decided by the membership instead of just following a policy that was probably set decades ago. If a majority of the membership voted to include Christian prayers, I would support that decision. The NFB has members and some in leadership roles who are openly gay or lesbian, and several leaders who are ethnic minorities. I don't think anyone is openly shunned in the NFB because of their sexual orientation, religion or any other characteristic. However, the issue that arose was that an LGBT group was not permitted to advertise its events or to get any kind of formal recognition. I don't know if a group based on race, mental illness, etc. would have faced the same treatment. The NFB does have a Communities of Faith division, and an NFB in Judaism group that is not very active to my knowledge, and a group for those in twelve-step addiction recovery. I honestly don't know if what happened to the LGBT group was a one-off or if it reflects a more general policy about special-interest groups. Again, it would be great if the policy about recognizing special-interest groups would be set clearly by the membership and made transparent to everyone so we don't have all this speculation. Arielle On 4/1/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, > that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> happen >> again. >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they >> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> devisions >> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling >> of >> >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters >> and >> >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what >> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of >> backing the wrong person. >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up >> in >> >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of >> the federation. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the >>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >>> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >>> occurring. >>> >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>> diverse >>> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I >>> also >>> >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they >>> have >>> >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >>> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >>> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >>> people. >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement >>> and >>> >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >>> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >>> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >>> purposes. >>> >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> changes >>> >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>> what >>> happens. >>> Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> multipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>> help them with. >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Joe and others, >>>> >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >>>> is >>>> wrong. Organizations are made up of >>>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely >>>> going >>>> >>>> to >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >>>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >>>> more >>>> funds than we used to have to raise. I >>>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>> is >>>> a >>>> risk. When you look at our budget and >>>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >>>> it >>>> is certainly clear that legislative >>>> successes are not >>>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>>> legislation >>>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >>>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >>>> feel >>>> particularly more so now that our >>>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take >>>> accessibility, >>>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >>>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >>>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >>>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>> limits >>>> of current technology and explore ways >>>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >>>> about >>>> being able to drive a car, although I >>>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >>>> got >>>> very excited about the fact that as a >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>>> of >>>> getting information that had not been >>>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the >>>> KNFB >>>> reader. At the time, it was something >>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>>> reader to the lists of registered people at >>>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have >>>> it >>>> start to read the content. There have >>>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of >>>> one >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We >>>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >>>> teachers, and major players in the >>>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or >>>> 90's, >>>> and much of this would not have been >>>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>>> >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >>>> point is that a lot of this is about risks >>>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these >>>> efforts >>>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >>>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >>>> learns >>>> from what does, because if you make a >>>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >>>> thousand kids get into math or science >>>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >>>> better >>>> because of what we did with the KNFB >>>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >>>> see >>>> a reader that could use artificial >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>> having >>>> >>>> to >>>> educate every person who writes >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for >>>> us >>>> >>>> to >>>> control the Google self-driving cars >>>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >>>> least >>>> some of the answers are yes, but at this >>>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >>>> grass >>>> roots organization that we were in the >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>> nor >>>> was >>>> it the right time for that. But it >>>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >>>> as >>>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >>>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>>> satisfied >>>> to say that it has to be that way, >>>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >>>> an >>>> organization. >>>> >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >>>> won't >>>> miraculously make life better, and >>>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to >>>> draw >>>> conclusions about such training based >>>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >>>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >>>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >>>> Minnesota and I assume by our other >>>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >>>> that >>>> you have to have a set of tools to >>>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >>>> more >>>> than run people through training. >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>> Legislating >>>> that software must be accessible and that >>>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still >>>> needed, >>>> but >>>> it won't matter much if we don't have >>>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if >>>> we >>>> don't get a good basic education. >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >>>> there are no braille instructors in a >>>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead >>>> to >>>> success by itself, and you can't see any >>>> given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>> >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>> the >>>> complex challenges we face with a larger >>>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >>>> understand where we are going and how our >>>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >>>> challenges of the world and what do we need >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >>>> asking questions like that outside of this >>>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >>>> understanding of asking for help and looking for >>>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >>>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >>>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >>>> members, though, to handle change. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> >>>>>Arielle, >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>> >>>>>Joe, >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>>>> my >>>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >>>> potential the organization has moving >>>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >>>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >>>> who >>>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in >>>> a >>>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >>>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the >>>> line >>>> and >>>> pander to those with political power >>>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >>>> still >>>> within our local chapters. >>>> >>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>>>> to >>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>> judgment >>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >>>>>> that >>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >>>>>> the >>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >>>>>> all >>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>>> life, >>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>> list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>> without >>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a >>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>>> dose >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>> generating >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>> top, >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>>> resources >>>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really >>>>>>>> meant >>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>>> verge >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> guide >>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the >>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have >>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>> excel >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>>> greater >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>> consume >>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 03:53:46 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:53:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people withmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> <0FE0AFDBB30D4E6A8A13DB68C26EEBA4@HP30910210001> Message-ID: Hi Arielle and all, I agree that some clarity and transparency on this matter would be helpful. it is always good to know where we stand on the policies of our organization. I seem to remember somehow that there was an interest on some level to have some sort of interest group for african-americans. I’m not entirely sure how serious the talk was of this and if the organizing of such a group never went much further because it opened up the door for more special interest divisions than we as an organization intended to have. So, basically an example to support the idea of clarity an transparency on these matters. I’ll try not to contribute to this thread in this manner because I’m sure I’m helping to drift this off-topic :-) Darian On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Kaiti and all, > > The national convention usually includes one invocation from a Jew, > usually an Orthodox Jewish prayer. But all the others I remember > hearing have been Christian prayers. It would be great if Muslims, > Hindus, Buddhists or other religious representatives were recruited to > lead invocations. Personally, I feel that religious and secular > business should be separate in this country and part of that means not > including communal prayers as part of a secular meeting (a moment of > silence where everyone could pray or not pray individually as they > chose might be more appropriate). But that's my opinion and I know it > is politically charged. I don't think the NFB takes any kind of > religious position and nor should it, but it would be great if such > decisions about how to handle prayer at convention, and similar > issues, were decided by the membership instead of just following a > policy that was probably set decades ago. If a majority of the > membership voted to include Christian prayers, I would support that > decision. > > The NFB has members and some in leadership roles who are openly gay or > lesbian, and several leaders who are ethnic minorities. I don't think > anyone is openly shunned in the NFB because of their sexual > orientation, religion or any other characteristic. However, the issue > that arose was that an LGBT group was not permitted to advertise its > events or to get any kind of formal recognition. I don't know if a > group based on race, mental illness, etc. would have faced the same > treatment. The NFB does have a Communities of Faith division, and an > NFB in Judaism group that is not very active to my knowledge, and a > group for those in twelve-step addiction recovery. I honestly don't > know if what happened to the LGBT group was a one-off or if it > reflects a more general policy about special-interest groups. Again, > it would be great if the policy about recognizing special-interest > groups would be set clearly by the membership and made transparent to > everyone so we don't have all this speculation. > > Arielle > > On 4/1/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >> may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >> those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >> without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >> starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >> huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >> working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >> same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then >> we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with >> that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >> organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it >> better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >> but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the >> car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is >> purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather >> than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people >> who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >> that just doesn't make sense. >> >> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself >> at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are >> more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't >> always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important >> that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had >> any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >> Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this >> light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? >> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >> would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >> minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >> greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are >> less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit >> their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >> Sorry for the rant. >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>> happen >>> again. >>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they >>> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>> devisions >>> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling >>> of >>> >>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters >>> and >>> >>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what >>> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of >>> backing the wrong person. >>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up >>> in >>> >>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of >>> the federation. Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>> withmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the >>>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >>>> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >>>> occurring. >>>> >>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>> diverse >>>> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I >>>> also >>>> >>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they >>>> have >>>> >>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >>>> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >>>> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >>>> people. >>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement >>>> and >>>> >>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >>>> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >>>> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>> changes >>>> >>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>> what >>>> happens. >>>> Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>> multipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >>>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >>>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >>>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>> help them with. >>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >>>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >>>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >>>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >>>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >>>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >>>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >>>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >>>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >>>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >>>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >>>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Joe and others, >>>>> >>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >>>>> is >>>>> wrong. Organizations are made up of >>>>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely >>>>> going >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>>>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>>>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >>>>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >>>>> more >>>>> funds than we used to have to raise. I >>>>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>> is >>>>> a >>>>> risk. When you look at our budget and >>>>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >>>>> it >>>>> is certainly clear that legislative >>>>> successes are not >>>>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>>>> legislation >>>>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >>>>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >>>>> feel >>>>> particularly more so now that our >>>>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take >>>>> accessibility, >>>>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >>>>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >>>>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >>>>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>>>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>>> limits >>>>> of current technology and explore ways >>>>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >>>>> about >>>>> being able to drive a car, although I >>>>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >>>>> got >>>>> very excited about the fact that as a >>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>>>> of >>>>> getting information that had not been >>>>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the >>>>> KNFB >>>>> reader. At the time, it was something >>>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>>>> reader to the lists of registered people at >>>>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have >>>>> it >>>>> start to read the content. There have >>>>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of >>>>> one >>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We >>>>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >>>>> teachers, and major players in the >>>>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or >>>>> 90's, >>>>> and much of this would not have been >>>>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>> >>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >>>>> point is that a lot of this is about risks >>>>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these >>>>> efforts >>>>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >>>>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >>>>> learns >>>>> from what does, because if you make a >>>>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >>>>> thousand kids get into math or science >>>>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >>>>> better >>>>> because of what we did with the KNFB >>>>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >>>>> see >>>>> a reader that could use artificial >>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>> having >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for >>>>> us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> control the Google self-driving cars >>>>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >>>>> least >>>>> some of the answers are yes, but at this >>>>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >>>>> grass >>>>> roots organization that we were in the >>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>>> nor >>>>> was >>>>> it the right time for that. But it >>>>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >>>>> as >>>>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >>>>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>>>> satisfied >>>>> to say that it has to be that way, >>>>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >>>>> an >>>>> organization. >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >>>>> won't >>>>> miraculously make life better, and >>>>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to >>>>> draw >>>>> conclusions about such training based >>>>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >>>>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >>>>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >>>>> Minnesota and I assume by our other >>>>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >>>>> that >>>>> you have to have a set of tools to >>>>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >>>>> more >>>>> than run people through training. >>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>> Legislating >>>>> that software must be accessible and that >>>>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still >>>>> needed, >>>>> but >>>>> it won't matter much if we don't have >>>>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if >>>>> we >>>>> don't get a good basic education. >>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >>>>> there are no braille instructors in a >>>>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead >>>>> to >>>>> success by itself, and you can't see any >>>>> given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>> >>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>>> the >>>>> complex challenges we face with a larger >>>>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >>>>> understand where we are going and how our >>>>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >>>>> challenges of the world and what do we need >>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >>>>> asking questions like that outside of this >>>>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >>>>> understanding of asking for help and looking for >>>>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >>>>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >>>>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >>>>> members, though, to handle change. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>> >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>>>>> my >>>>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >>>>> potential the organization has moving >>>>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >>>>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>>>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >>>>> who >>>>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in >>>>> a >>>>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >>>>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the >>>>> line >>>>> and >>>>> pander to those with political power >>>>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >>>>> still >>>>> within our local chapters. >>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>> judgment >>>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>>>> life, >>>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a >>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>>>> dose >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>> generating >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>> top, >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>>>> resources >>>>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really >>>>>>>>> meant >>>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>>>> verge >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>> guide >>>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the >>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have >>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>> excel >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>>>> greater >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>> consume >>>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Apr 2 04:22:15 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 22:22:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? Message-ID: Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship. Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Kaiti Shelton wrote: Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen again. Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling of the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters and state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of backing the wrong person. Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up in the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" wrote: what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not occurring. I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I also believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they have a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement and then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social purposes. Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more changes and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what happens. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" wrote: Joe and others, It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all members, though, to handle change. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: Arielle, That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. Joe, I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: Hello all. This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. Thanks. Mike -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" References: <4C36EB696E8B490EA6018B67D0D47E6E@Helga> Message-ID: Yes, this can be done. It isn't quite as smooth as with some products but it has the capability, see the freedomscientific web site or ask your dealer, or JAWS support. Dave At 09:39 PM 4/1/2014, you wrote: >Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just >wanted to ask you, is it true that you can put >the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in >order to take it around and use it in other >computers that don’t have the software? And if >it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way >that I can put it in my thumb drive? I’m just >wondering since I want to see and check my >mom’s computer or other friend’s computer >that doesn’t have JAWS the Software, so that I >can use it. I will really appreciate it, if you >could help me and give me some suggestions >regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! From ALewis at nfb.org Wed Apr 2 15:35:04 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:35:04 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Walgreen proves the business case for hiring 'disabled' Message-ID: We underestimated them, it's as simple as that... The biggest impediment to overcome is fear. Walgreen proves the business case for hiring 'disabled' http://bloom-parentingkidswithdisabilities.blogspot.ca/2014/03/walgreen-proves-business-case- In 2006 Randy Lewis changed the way Walgreen Co. does business. As senior vice-president of supply chain and logistics for the U.S. drug store chain, Lewis oversaw 10,000 employees and up to a thousand new hires each year. As a father to Austin, who has autism, he knew the difference a job could make in the lives of young people with disabilities. In No Greatness Without Goodness Lewis explains how he brought his corporate and personal worlds together, transforming Walgreen's distribution centres into inclusive workplaces where people with all kinds of physical and mental disabilities, many deemed unemployable, work to the same standards and earn the same pay as other staff. The company's new mindset is proclaimed in a giant sign when you enter the building with the words "No 'them'" in a circle and a line drawn through it. BLOOM: What is the message of your new book? Randy Lewis: It's the story of how I got involved with disability hiring, why we did it as a company and how we were able to go from essentially zero to 10 per cent of the workforce in five years. The reason I wrote it was one, so that people could understand that people with disabilities could work effectively and have a positive impact on the work environment. It wasn't just as good, it was better. And two, that we all tend to underestimate our power to effect change and that everyone, I think, at their core really does want to change the world. As leaders, if we can tap into that in ourselves, that we want to do good things, we can unleash that in others. BLOOM: How did you get the idea to hire people with disabilities? Randy Lewis: I have a son with autism and so watching him grow up, I shared the same dream of other parents like me-to live one day longer than my child because you wonder what will happen to them after you're gone. We'd go to these IEP conferences at school and I realized disability plays no favourites. It strikes traditional and non-traditional families, rich and poor. I got to thinking: 'What is going to happen to all of these other kids and parents?' If we're hiring over here at Walgreen and there's a need over there, why can't we bring those two worlds together? BLOOM: How did you sell the idea to the company? Randy Lewis: I said we're not going to lower any of our performance standards, we're a business, not a charity, and if it didn't work out, we wouldn't do it. What I discovered as an employer was we had lots of invisible walls around us-systems that we thought were giving us the best performers, but weren't. We were screening out a whole class of people who would never get through the Internet job application, or interview well, or look and talk like everyone else, or have all of their limbs. That was a huge turning point. BLOOM: How did you get buy-in from existing staff? Randy Lewis: We'd had some experience with enclaves, where we contract with another company and they bring people in with disabilities, typically to do janitorial or ancillary tasks, and they supervise them. All our employees liked it, management liked it. Here we are helping these people, but they weren't integrated. One day a team member told the group about how important this work was to her and she showed a picture of these people with disabilities. They were all wearing the same shirts and she was in the picture with them, also wearing the same shirt. She made a point of telling me she was not 'one of them,' but their sponsor. I knew that was a problem. We had not embraced people with disabilities as equals. After that we hired a young man with Asperger's to work on the line at one of our centres and he did a fantastic job. We had two women he worked with and I talked to them and asked 'How are things working with Chuck? Are people accepting him?' They said: 'If they don't, they have to deal with us,' and I thought now we're making progress. Each of our buildings has different coloured plastic totes for shipping, and in this building they were grey. A couple of times every day a purple tote would get mixed up and come down the line and Chuck loved those purple totes. He would dance every time he saw one. At one point we said 'Is that appropriate behaviour for the workplace?' But then we got to thinking 'Why not?' We'd rather have him dancing than complaining. So we started learning about inclusion and we were about to build a new generation of building. We had experience with the enclaves, we knew Chuck could work on the line, so I thought maybe this is time. Why don't we develop our automation with people with disabilities in mind. BLOOM: How did you decide on what proportion of staff would have disabilities? Randy Lewis: When it came time to plan a new-generation distribution centre 10 years ago to handle our growing business, I believed it was an opportunity to 'go big' with disability hiring in an intentional manner. We were designing new equipment and we thought let's make it effective for people with disabilities if we can do that with negligible cost. We talked to a fellow who worked with people with autism. We knew we couldn't afford a lot of job coaches and we asked him how many typically abled people would we initially need to provide support to a person with autism, thinking the person with autism might be the most difficult to employ. He said maybe two people. So we decided one-third of the workforce is going to be a person with a disability. No one had ever done this anywhere in the world in a production environment. If we don't get orders shipped accurately we're not in business. This was a clear and elevating goal. We would hire 200 people with disabilities out of 600 to staff this new-generation centre we were building in South Carolina. Two years later we opened up a similar centre with the same goals near Hartford, Conn. BLOOM: What did you learn? Randy Lewis: We discovered that people with disabilities could do all of the jobs, not just the jobs we'd designed the equipment in mind for. The automation we put in helped everyone, not just the people with disabilities. We brought in managers from our other centres to show them that it wasn't about the automation. That they didn't have to have specialized equipment that we had in the new centre to be successful at this. They liked what they saw and were ready to try it out in their less automated buildings. And I asked them to set a clear and elevating goal and they said let's hire 1,000 people by the year 2010. BLOOM: Why were the staff with disabilities so effective? Randy Lewis: We underestimated them, it's as simple as that. When we measure performance, the people with disabilities perform as well statistically as the others. The standard is not that they have to be Superman or Jackie Robinson. But the employees with disabilities also have fewer accidents, better retention, less absenteeism and they make people better managers and create greater teamwork. BLOOM: So it sounds like overall there were definite advantages. Randy Lewis: Yes. BLOOM: Did the culture in these environments change for the better. Randy Lewis: I asked people in our South Carolina and Connecticut centres who'd worked in other buildings without disability hiring, 'How did you rank engagement when you were there?' And they'd say probably a seven or eight out of 10. Then I asked them to compare that level of engagement with what they saw in the building they were in now. They said the eight would drop to a two. 'We didn't know what engagement was until we got here,' they said. 'We didn't know what teamwork was like.' If you ask managers in the buildings with a large percentage of people with disabilities what is their number one job, they'll say 'My job is to make everybody who works for me successful.' When you have that kind of attitude the workforce notices and they respond to it. BLOOM: How has the experience created better managers? Randy Lewis: We've learned to 'manage in the grey' and by that I mean we want to manage with values or principles, not rules. People like rules, bosses like rules because they're easier to administer. For some of our supervisors that was uncomfortable at first, but I said if it's just about administering rules I can get my own children to come in and run this place. We asked people to look at the purpose of rules and apply what were the principles of the rule, rather than the rule itself. This caused us to look at a lot of our policies. We changed the way we hire and recruit because a lot of people can't get through the Internet application system or need help applying. If there's a discipline problem, we let the employee bring in a parent or advocate because we want to make sure they understand and we understand. Sometimes we make exceptions to a rule. For example, I remember a situation where a young man became frustrated because he had to work overtime and he was going to miss a doctor's appointment. He punched a computer screen and broke it. The rule is that if you break something intentionally, you're fired forever and forever banned from the company. We got to thinking: 'Is that a good rule? Is there ever an exception?' Even Aristotle way back when noted that human behaviour is not mathematics, it's not finite reasoning, there are exceptions to all things. So we went back and had to look at that policy as it applied to all of our staff. We needed a framework. And it was: 'Is there an extenuating circumstance? Is there a reason to expect the person won't do it again? And what's the likelihood that they'll be able to find employment elsewhere?' We don't decide in favour of the employee in every case, but we did in that one. Our managers say this idea of managing in the grey is the most powerful thing that's made them better managers. BLOOM: It sounds like they feel empowered in a new way. Randy Lewis: The change is huge. They talk about managing with love, a word we've never used in the workplace. A few years back we had the president of a Best Buy division come through for a tour and afterwards he sat down with our managers to ask questions. 'I've heard all the good things about this place,' he said. 'What's a bad day like?' And essentially the supervisors said: 'A bad day is when I come in with my own problems and I'm not focused on my staff and the work. You know that saying 'You come home and you want to kick the dog?' If I do that at work my staff will either shut down or start acting out or they'll confront me and tell me why I'm being a jerk. Or they'll come up and give me a hug. One thing I've learned is that when I'm here, it's about them, not me.' BLOOM: How costly is it to train people with disabilities? Randy Lewis: It was negligible. What we did was go out in the community and get partners. We demanded that disability agencies in the community form a coalition and work together with us. We built a training room in a community-rented space and for a year the community screened and trained people and taught them how to use our equipment. Now we have training rooms within our buildings. Typically a new employee has 60 days' probation and by 60 days they have to be up to full productivity. We anticipated that people with disabilities might need longer because out training might not be right for everyone. So we created an alternative pipeline into the company. If you have a disability and want to come in that route you are paid as a temporary employee, with no benefits, and you can stay in that group as long as you're progressing towards full productivity. It might take 60 days or less, some may take 90. One person took a year. Once they're at full productivity they're hired as permanent staff. BLOOM: In a news story I saw you talked about an accommodation where you name, as well as number, stations. Can you explain that? Randy Lewis: For someone who has difficulty with numbers and directions, we've named stations as a group of animals in a zoo. So we might say 'You'll be working at rhinoceros in zoo.' We also have a race-cart alley and a hamburger alley. So perhaps you'll be working at the hot dog station in hamburger alley. These are simple things that help some people. Most of our accommodations cost less than $20 and most are paper and pencil. BLOOM: What's been the greatest challenge in implementing this model? Randy Lewis: The biggest impediment to overcome is fear. BLOOM: How did you manage that? Randy Lewis: To outsiders in the organization I said: 'We're here to make money, we're here to make it work. If people with disabilities can't to the job, they won't be working here.' To those who reported to me I said 'Our standard is to give it our very best, so if it doesn't work, we can tell the world this is not possible. Give it your very best, and if it doesn't work, we know no one else could have done it better than us.' That was very freeing for everyone. We also said 'We don't have all the answers. There are going to be problems we can't anticipate, so let's not worry about those. If you anticipate a problem, let's figure out a way around it. And you can't bring a What if? unless you've thought of a way around it. Most of the problems we anticipated never happened.' BLOOM: What was a problem you didn't anticipate? Randy Lewis: We thought all of our systems were great for getting us the best employees. We thought we'd build this and as soon as we put an ad in the paper all of the people with disabilities would come flocking to us. We didn't think about the fact that this is a group that doesn't read the paper every morning looking for places to work. It's not a group that trusts employers. It's a group that may have difficulty in even getting to the job site for the interview. We didn't realize we had so many invisible walls. It took some work for us to say gee whiz, we're going to have to do something different. We worked with community agencies. We've had to teach them to understand our jobs and send us people that they believe will be successful. BLOOM: What are common myths about hiring people with disabilities? Randy Lewis: That they can't do the job, it's going to cost me more to make them effective and when they fail I will get punished. BLOOM: Has Walgreen hired people who were considered unemployable? Randy Lewis: Lots of them. For most of them it's their first job. BLOOM: What does the average person get paid? Randy Lewis: They make close to US$30,000 on the production line. BLOOM: I heard that in a couple of your distribution centres as many as half of all employees have disabilities. Randy Lewis: In our original centre in South Carolina, 40 per cent have disabilities. In our newer centre in Connecticut, 50 per cent have disabilities. In 2011 we achieved our goal of having 10 per cent of the workforce made up by people with disabilities. Before I retired 14 months ago, the centre managers from across the country met and set a new goal to reach 20 per cent. BLOOM: What kind of impact do these jobs have on people with disabilities? Randy Lewis: For many a world of possibility, opportunity and responsibility is opened to them for the first time. They have relationships they've never had before. They have money they never had before. And there are some unanticipated consequences, too. For instance, some become like teenagers: they stay up too late at night playing video games because they can afford them now. It's a whole village of people working together that's expanded everyone's way of thinking. BLOOM: What advice would you give a parent who's concerned that their child won't be able to get a job due to disabilities? Randy Lewis: The words we hear as parents of a child with a disability are 'always' and 'never.' We have found that that's not necessarily true. I was in Canada yesterday with a new organization of employers called SensAbility. They're going to look for employers in Canada who will help spread this model. Ontario's Lieutenant Governor David Onley has taken employers to visit our site and is very active in helping Canada advance on this front. So I'm very hopeful about Canada. BLOOM: What about your son. What are his dreams? Randy Lewis: I wish I knew. I wish he could tell me. He's 25 and he works about 12 hours a week in a Walgreens store. There's a Michigan company building a distribution centre about an hour from here in Chicago and the owner has talked about how one day he wants Austin to be their employee. So we're going to go up and see it. BLOOM: What impact do you hope your book will have? Randy Lewis: I hope people read it and believe it's possible and try it. There are enough models out there to do it. We make only three cents on the dollar, so our margins are razor thin. If Walgreen could do it-and we didn't have any models to work from-anyone can do it. Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Deputy Executive Director National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 659-5129 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org Twitter: @AnilLife The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 17:39:50 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:39:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive In-Reply-To: References: <4C36EB696E8B490EA6018B67D0D47E6E@Helga> Message-ID: I hate the sound of the default NVDA. can you get the elloquence synthesizer for it? -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive Hi Helga, I'm not a computer guru, so I'll admit I may be wrong on this; but I don't think you can do this with JAWS. However, you can do it with NVDA, which is a free screenreader you can download and install to a flashdrive. I use a flashdrive with NVDA on it so I don't have to worry about finding an inaccessible computer when I study at the library, and it works really well. HTH. On 4/1/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, is it > true > that you can put the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in order to > take > it around and use it in other computers that don't have the software? And > if > it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way that I can put it in my thumb > drive? I'm just wondering since I want to see and check my mom's computer > or > other friend's computer that doesn't have JAWS the Software, so that I can > use it. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some > suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and > God bless!! -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 17:38:09 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:38:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001><0FE0AFDBB30D4E6A8A13DB68C26EEBA4@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <77328BBEDA50436084BDF1BAF398A8EC@OwnerPC> Kaiti, The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; get a job. Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you can be financially independent through other means with out the job. What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances who don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like raisers edge. The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps with no outside help. So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things may change soon. That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this does not happen again. Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other disability groups. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? Hello all, In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. Sorry for the rant. On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen > again. > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they > just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions > are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling > of > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters > and > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what > happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of > backing the wrong person. > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up > in > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of > the federation. Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > withmultipledisabilities? > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > Arielle > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the >> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >> occurring. >> >> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse >> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I >> also >> >> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they >> have >> >> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >> people. >> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement >> and >> >> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >> purposes. >> >> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >> changes >> >> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what >> happens. >> Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> multipledisabilities? >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> help them with. >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >>> is >>> wrong. Organizations are made up of >>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely >>> going >>> >>> to >>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >>> more >>> funds than we used to have to raise. I >>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is >>> a >>> risk. When you look at our budget and >>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >>> it >>> is certainly clear that legislative >>> successes are not >>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>> legislation >>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >>> feel >>> particularly more so now that our >>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take >>> accessibility, >>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> limits >>> of current technology and explore ways >>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >>> about >>> being able to drive a car, although I >>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >>> got >>> very excited about the fact that as a >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>> of >>> getting information that had not been >>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB >>> reader. At the time, it was something >>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>> reader to the lists of registered people at >>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >>> start to read the content. There have >>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of >>> one >>> kind or another through our efforts. We >>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >>> teachers, and major players in the >>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or >>> 90's, >>> and much of this would not have been >>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >>> point is that a lot of this is about risks >>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these >>> efforts >>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >>> learns >>> from what does, because if you make a >>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >>> thousand kids get into math or science >>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >>> better >>> because of what we did with the KNFB >>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >>> see >>> a reader that could use artificial >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>> having >>> >>> to >>> educate every person who writes >>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for >>> us >>> >>> to >>> control the Google self-driving cars >>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >>> some of the answers are yes, but at this >>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >>> grass >>> roots organization that we were in the >>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor >>> was >>> it the right time for that. But it >>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >>> as >>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>> satisfied >>> to say that it has to be that way, >>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >>> an >>> organization. >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >>> won't >>> miraculously make life better, and >>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >>> conclusions about such training based >>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >>> Minnesota and I assume by our other >>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >>> that >>> you have to have a set of tools to >>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >>> more >>> than run people through training. >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating >>> that software must be accessible and that >>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, >>> but >>> it won't matter much if we don't have >>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if >>> we >>> don't get a good basic education. >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >>> there are no braille instructors in a >>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead >>> to >>> success by itself, and you can't see any >>> given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >>> complex challenges we face with a larger >>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >>> understand where we are going and how our >>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >>> challenges of the world and what do we need >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >>> asking questions like that outside of this >>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >>> understanding of asking for help and looking for >>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >>> members, though, to handle change. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>>>Arielle, >>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>>>Joe, >>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>>> my >>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >>> potential the organization has moving >>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >>> who >>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line >>> and >>> pander to those with political power >>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still >>> within our local chapters. >>> >>>>Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>> life, >>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> mailing >>>>>> list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>> without >>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>> RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>> company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>> real >>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>> found >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>> dose >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>> generating >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> whom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>> top, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>> blood >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>> resources >>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>> mind >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>> true >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>> verge >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> guide >>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>> give >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>> always >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>> few >>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>> provide >>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>> through >>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>> excel >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>> greater >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>> answer >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>> consume >>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>> not, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ALewis at nfb.org Wed Apr 2 18:35:34 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 18:35:34 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] The American Dream Fellowship Message-ID: <04706f3805614a9e92b3323e21d80adc@BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Michael Gamel-McCormick Disability Policy Director Chairman Tom Harkin Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions 404 Senate Hart Office Building w-(202)224-7692 c- (302)367-4282 The American Dream Fellowship The Cisneros Center for New Americans is excited to announce the creation of the American Dream Fellowship, a paid opportunity for young and driven leaders who are passionate about empowering new immigrant families to fully engage their communities and live out their American Dream. During this paid 13-month fellowship, fellows will work together with community stakeholders in our inaugural host community of Northwest Arkansas to address barriers to integration for new immigrant families. Fellows will educate, advocate, and innovate. Educate. Fellows will work to instill a sense of urgency about education in new immigrant families by engaging family members in educational goals and breaking down barriers to academic achievement. In the process, the Fellows themselves will grow in their understanding and appreciation of the host community, and will embark in their own journey of personal growth. Advocate. Fellows will work to Improve access for new immigrants to the resources and services they need to pursue the American Dream, including through the path we have developed: A Road Map to The American Dream. To do this, Fellows will create strong and meaningful relationships with community members and stakeholders, and use their work to lend a voice to the community's needs. Innovate. Fellows will work closely with the community to leverage collective impact, proven strategies, and innovative technologies. The host community's leadership and fellows will work closely to generate creative solutions that maximize resources and impact. The American Dream Fellowship will begin in July of 2014 and run through August of the 2015. During the first month of their commitment, fellows will participate in a rigorous training based in San Antonio. While in Northwest Arkansas fellows will be supported and developed by the Cisneros Center staff and high level leaders. Fellows will receive a competitive salary of $50,000 and full benefits. To learn more about the Fellow profile, click here. For additional information about the fellowship, click here. How do you apply? Interested individuals can apply here. The deadline for nominations and applications is 11:59 pm EST on Sunday, April 13, 2014. The application includes: * Basic information * Resume * Personal Statement Please visit www.cisneroscenter.org/apply to apply. Alyssa Mowitz Majority Staff * Disability Policy and Oversight Office Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Chairman Tom Harkin 404 Hart Senate Office Building (202) 224-233 Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Deputy Executive Director National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 659-5129 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org Twitter: @AnilLife The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture. From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 19:28:31 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:28:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: <77328BBEDA50436084BDF1BAF398A8EC@OwnerPC> References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001><0FE0AFDBB30D4E6A8A13DB68C26EEBA4@HP30910210001> <77328BBEDA50436084BDF1BAF398A8EC@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <004f01cf4ea9$bb7b1900$32714b00$@gmail.com> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. Great point Ashley. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? Kaiti, The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; get a job. Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you can be financially independent through other means with out the job. What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances who don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like raisers edge. The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps with no outside help. So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things may change soon. That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this does not happen again. Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other disability groups. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? Hello all, In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. Sorry for the rant. On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > happen again. > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > be the darling of > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > chapters and > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > examples of backing the wrong person. > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew > up in > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling > of the federation. Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > withmultipledisabilities? > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > Arielle > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >> is not occurring. >> >> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >> diverse. I also >> >> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >> they have >> >> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >> transgendered people. >> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >> announcement and >> >> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >> social purposes. >> >> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >> changes >> >> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >> what happens. >> Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> multipledisabilities? >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> help them with. >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>> >>> to >>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>> having >>> >>> to >>> educate every person who writes >>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>> for us >>> >>> to >>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>> individuals and as an organization. >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>> training. >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>> education. >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>>>Arielle, >>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>>>Joe, >>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>> >>>>Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>> does. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>> RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>> this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>> mail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>0visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From nelsonsam68 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 19:44:54 2014 From: nelsonsam68 at gmail.com (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 14:44:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness Message-ID: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> Hi everyone, I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with blindness. Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if possible and most of all just our friendship. Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program and how they do things. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship. Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Kaiti Shelton wrote: Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen again. Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling of the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters and state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of backing the wrong person. Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up in the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" wrote: what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not occurring. I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I also believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they have a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement and then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social purposes. Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more changes and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what happens. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" wrote: Joe and others, It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all members, though, to handle change. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: Arielle, That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. Joe, I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: Hello all. This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. Thanks. Mike -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is led by blind people with mental illness. Arielle On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi everyone, > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred percent > agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ services for > the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with blindness. > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental illness. I > agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and them not > understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how mental illness > might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of misunderstanding with > blindness profesionals not understanding how mental illness might interfere > with living on one's own getting a standard full time job ETC and so their > scope of services don't allow for anything outside what they perceive to be > normal. > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is a > very > close knit community and we all support each other day to day with these > struggles, providing encouragement and resources if possible and most of > all > just our friendship. > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric clinic > and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know anthing about > this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a contact person as > I'd be very curious to know more about the program and how they do > things. > > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree > described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted > and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship. > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will not > take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them > because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man to > woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a > guy > from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up > and > take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us from > marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of > Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be > complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound > harsh. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may > call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > people, > and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with > the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the > various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > I'm > really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed > out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's > okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but > a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian > even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > the > views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not > under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > hate > for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend > that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the > right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > circumstances > doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen > again. > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they > just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions > are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling > of > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters > and > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what > happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of > backing the wrong person. > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up > in > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of > the federation. Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > withmultipledisabilities? > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like > that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely understand > the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special interest. > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should > constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car > enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an LGBT > group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want > LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious > invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever > even been polled about whether to keep having these religious invocations? > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we really > need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what > kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a > division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can > probably > be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping > up > a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would have > been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that > wasn't supported. > > Arielle > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > But the > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under > served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > occurring. > > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse > population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I > also > > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they > have > > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to > assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and > wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement > and > > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the > federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the > leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > purposes. > > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > changes > > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what > happens. > Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > multipledisabilities? > > > Hi all, > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue that's > come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also > have > other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with > additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the > number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting > educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that, > for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to > the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think > that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when we > think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental > illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but > especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to > stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I > can > see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or > chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks > who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the > ups > and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly > creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting > lost. > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment, > education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just blindness, > but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups within > the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, > but > I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard > about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes > sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd > want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has > not been formed. > I > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > exist > because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't been > enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such > divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain > leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a > vehicle > for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups > specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I > hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you > about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While > there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to > be > elected and welcomed in these positions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Joe and others, > > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative > is > wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect > so > our creations are not likely going > > to > be perfect. Still, some of what one > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an > expansion > that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to > raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that > this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and > then > compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that > legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I > completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the > ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation > alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of > emphasis > on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be > accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it > isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all > by itself. > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that > is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a > car, > although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. > However, I > got > very excited about the fact that as a > result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways > of > getting information that had not been explored before. A significant > portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was > something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up > a > KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended > science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been > able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and > major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this > in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now > if we hadn't tried it. > > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My > point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't > know > for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. > Frankly, > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as > one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get > into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS > product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a > computer screen instead of having > > to > educate every person who writes > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us > > to > control the Google self-driving cars > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least > some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I > do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were > in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed > above, > nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, > what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm > not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and > must > learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. > > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers > won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes > imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such > training > based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and > challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what > is > addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our > other > centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that > you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just > one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > Legislating > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based > upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we > don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that > much if we don't get a good basic education. > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if > there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one > thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't > see > any given issue as completely standing on its own. > > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the > complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it > is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how > our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the > challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more > important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that > outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I > think > our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is > what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that > branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We > need the help of all members, though, to handle change. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > > Arielle, > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > > Joe, > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my > own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's > history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving > forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to > cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think > the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors > of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in > a > no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when > those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with > political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, > and more still within our local chapters. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > Braille > Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the > increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national > convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors and > prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on > philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the > like. > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now, > and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a > decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources. > So > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a loss > of programs and resources. > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly shameful. I > do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because > they > perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle > choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is > reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all > organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially > sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real lack > of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and > was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt completely > accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage > prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a > different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance there. > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the > organization. > > Arielle > > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > wrote: > Hello all. > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, > live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all > mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > Thanks. > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without > the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. > RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I > was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the > company > > of > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a > recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a > counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real > world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a > national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership > seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's > spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced > with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit > business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more > members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing > that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. > I > found > it > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose > of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating > more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most > frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called > friends from whom > > I > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > fundraising campaigns. > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the > movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts > for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in > scope. > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or > the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new > blood > and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and > resources we've already had. > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > professionals. > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will > be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the > organization because they were turned away or because they were never > welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind > when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too > much of > > a > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough > to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant > attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB > lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true > to > the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves > incapable of sustaining. > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want > > it > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what > I > think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of > spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only > guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave > the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be > your > own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never > give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you > always had > > to > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I > will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse > this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB > is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. > Whether > or > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it > to > exist. > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've > found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem > happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. > The > few > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > lesson in financial management to you. > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would > never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to > provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up > through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have > no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they > couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you > excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the > greater our strength. > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be > the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to > answer > the original question, my answer would be this: > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume > what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, > and > wisdom to recognize the difference. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > ndefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > le%40frontier.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > 40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso > n%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104%40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 > 07%40comcast.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:12:47 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:12:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism Message-ID: I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual approach of empowering blind people while also making environments more hospitable for us. Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out to other blind people for help. Arielle On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: > The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. > Great point Ashley. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Kaiti, > The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. > > Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on > terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is > kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; > get > a job. > Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you can > be financially independent through other means with out the job. > What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances > who > don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a > full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing > nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > raisers edge. > The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps > with no outside help. > So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB > is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things > may change soon. > > That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this > does not happen again. > > Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > disability groups. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may > call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > people, > and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with > the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the > various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > I'm > really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed > out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's > okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but > a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian > even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > the > views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not > under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > hate > for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend > that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the > right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > circumstances > doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> happen again. >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >> be the darling of >> >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> chapters and >> >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> examples of backing the wrong person. >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >> up in >> >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>> is not occurring. >>> >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>> diverse. I also >>> >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>> they have >>> >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>> transgendered people. >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>> announcement and >>> >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>> social purposes. >>> >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> changes >>> >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>> what happens. >>> Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> multipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>> help them with. >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Joe and others, >>>> >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>> >>>> to >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>> >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>> having >>>> >>>> to >>>> educate every person who writes >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>> for us >>>> >>>> to >>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>> >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>> training. >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>> education. >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>> >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> >>>>>Arielle, >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>> >>>>>Joe, >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>> >>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >>>>>> is > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>> does. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>0visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From nelsonsam68 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:24:23 2014 From: nelsonsam68 at gmail.com (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:24:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> Hi Ariel, I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which is such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is led by blind people with mental illness. Arielle On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi everyone, > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with blindness. > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if > possible and most of all just our friendship. > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program > and how they do things. > > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth > Taurasi > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship. > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, > that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > happen again. > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > be the darling of > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > chapters and > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > examples of backing the wrong person. > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and > grew up in > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > withmultipledisabilities? > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special interest. > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about whether to keep having these religious invocations? > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > Arielle > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > But the > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > occurring. > > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > diverse. I also > > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > they have > > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > announcement and > > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > purposes. > > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > changes > > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > what happens. > Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > multipledisabilities? > > > Hi all, > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. > I > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Joe and others, > > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > > to > be perfect. Still, some of what one > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > particularly on the job, all by itself. > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > at some point. > However, I > got > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have > attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. > > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > difference. > Frankly, > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software > on a computer screen instead of having > > to > educate every person who writes > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > for us > > to > control the Google self-driving cars > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. > But it also means that we change. > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as > an organization. > > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > Legislating > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > help of all members, though, to handle change. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > > Arielle, > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > > Joe, > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more > still within our local chapters. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > drawings and the like. > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources. > So > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a > loss of programs and resources. > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in > the organization. > > Arielle > > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > wrote: > Hello all. > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > Thanks. > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. > RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in > the company > > of > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. > I > found > it > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from > so-called friends from whom > > I > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > fundraising campaigns. > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also > national in scope. > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > professionals. > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they > shun the organization because they were turned away or because they > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the > organization. I had too much of > > a > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most > important, remaining true to the cause and not some > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > sustaining. > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't > want > > it > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > > to > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. > Whether > or > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want > it to exist. > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. > The > few > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > lesson in financial management to you. > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > ndefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > le%40frontier.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > 40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso > n%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104%40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 > 07%40comcast.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > on.net > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! 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Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Wed Apr 2 21:54:14 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:54:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: <004f01cf4ea9$bb7b1900$32714b00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: As a person involved some in technology, could you explain more about Razor's Edge and which companies are using it that you have encountered? If you look at the myriad of accessibility issues, it is hard to know how to prioritize them. Unfortunately, many issues do not fall cleanly under existing laws. What I mean by cleanly is that laws may apply in such a borderline fashion that getting a positive decision is unlikely. I am oversimplifying this some, but to a large degree there is no law preventing companies from producing inaccessible software. Where are lever has been is in affecting software by making it illegal or at least harder to have governmental entities buy it. In some cases we have been successful when a private business had an inaccessible web site but their web site was used to enhance the experience at a public location. This whole area of accessibility to websites and software on the job is not well defined legally at all. I know that the International Braille and Technology Center works with many companies all the time and an attempt has been made to publicize the efforts of companies who have made their software accessible. There needs to be a ton of work done on this yet and in some cases, there is not much that can be done legally. If you have brought Razor's Edge to the national Office and they have told you it isn't important enough to work on, I would be very surprised. However, there are a number of reasons why it might not be that easy to correct very quickly including the good old "reasonable effort" and "Undo Burden" language in many laws. Would you say more about this? Best regards, Steve Jacobson -----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett >Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >Kaiti, >The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. >Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy >too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on >terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is >kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; get >a job. >Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you can >be financially independent through other means with out the job. >What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances who >don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a >full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing >nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like >raisers edge. >The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps >with no outside help. >So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB >is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these >values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things >may change soon. >That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this >does not happen again. >Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >disability groups. >Ashley >-----Original Message----- >From: Kaiti Shelton >Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >Hello all, >In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may >call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those >with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to >working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind people, >and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish >tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with >the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the >various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but I'm >really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed >out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's >okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive >(yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but >a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as unitarian >even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than the >views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, >just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not >under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even >remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know >the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent >part of convention? >What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would hate >for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend >that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the >right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or circumstances >doesn't seem right. >Sorry for the rant. >On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> happen again. >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >> be the darling of >> >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> chapters and >> >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> examples of backing the wrong person. >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >> up in >> >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>> is not occurring. >>> >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>> diverse. I also >>> >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>> they have >>> >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>> transgendered people. >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>> announcement and >>> >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>> social purposes. >>> >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> changes >>> >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>> what happens. >>> Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> multipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>> help them with. >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Joe and others, >>>> >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>> >>>> to >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>> >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>> having >>>> >>>> to >>>> educate every person who writes >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>> for us >>>> >>>> to >>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>> >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>> training. >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>> education. >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>> >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> >>>>>Arielle, >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>> >>>>>Joe, >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>> >>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is >something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>> does. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>0visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> >-- >Kaiti >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 22:15:20 2014 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 18:15:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: If You Like A Cappella Music Then Experience Three Hours Of It With Me Tonight Message-ID: <4DC0B87D2F4A408BA23C260D31CCC9C1@AudioAccessFMPC> Hi All! Ever wonder what happens when Star Wars is put to a cappella music? Well, you'll find this out tonight, along with some other great a cappella awesomeness, as A Cappellas Anonymous once again takes over the internet air waves, starting at 7 PM and going til 10PM eastern, exclusively on the WDJm3 Network. We may also take a cruise on a pirate ship, and try out those songs in different languages if desired by the listener. And as always, you can interact during the show via twitter at ddunphyradio Via skype at daviddunphyradio Via telephone at 516 945 9165 Or via TeamTalk. Log on to http://www.daviddunphyradio.com to download the TeamTalk client, connect to the server, then message one of us on the server so we can bring iyou into the channel. It streams the show in real time too, so you'll be able to have fun and enjoy the show! You can listen by either: 1. Going to http://www.daviddunphyradio.com and clicking the play link that will appear so your mobile devices and computers can tune in 2. Going to http://wdjm3.com/player and following the above instructions or 3. Putting the following into your media player of choice: http://stream.wdjm3.com then pressing enter. It's going to be a fun show with great harmonies and fun music, so I hope to see you all there! >From David From joy.misto at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 22:35:33 2014 From: joy.misto at gmail.com (Joy Mistovich) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 18:35:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 90, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I agree exactly with Arielle and believe that the NFB is a liberal civil rights organizations. In general, I believe the majority of civil rights organizations-- no matter if they include people with and without disabilities-- are liberal in nature. The NFB's main philosophy and thrust of integrating the blind community equally into society is heavily based upon the side of democracy and liberalism. I have just completed a research paper for an independent study relating to how the blind and visually impaired are viewed within society. In other words, I discussed the experiences of two visually impaired writers and professors, explained the stereotypes encountered throughout one of their memoirs, and how the NFB has been able to lessen the few stereotypes I could critically expound on. After researching more heavily into the ACB and NFB organizations, I have realized that the ACB is much more conservative. One of the articles I found about an NFB member criticizing this organization stated that "The ACB is conservative" and they don't do enough to produce confident blind individuals. Finally, the NFB in general is a support network for individuals to share their experiences and learn from others who have encountered similar dilemmas. When a blind person needs assistance and they are lucky enough to discover the NFB, they network and make friends with other individuals; none of the NFB members walk alone on their journey. They will always have other individuals to guide them. No man is an island. This is what I have discovered after my first year within this organization, and I am extremely grateful to be a member!!! Joy On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:54 PM, wrote: > Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Walgreen proves the business case for hiring 'disabled' > (Lewis, Anil) > 2. Re: JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive (Ashley Bramlett) > 3. Re: How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (Ashley Bramlett) > 4. The American Dream Fellowship (Lewis, Anil) > 5. Re: How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (justin williams) > 6. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities > mental illness (Sam Nelson) > 7. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities > mental illness (Arielle Silverman) > 8. NFB and conservatism/liberalism (Arielle Silverman) > 9. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities > mental illness (Sam Nelson) > 10. Re: How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (Steve Jacobson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:35:04 +0000 > From: "Lewis, Anil" > To: "Affiliate Presidents > (state-affiliate-leadership-list at nfbnet.org)" > , "NFB Chapter > Presidents > discussion list (chapter-presidents at nfbnet.org)" > , "NABS List (nabs-l at nfbnet.org)" > > Subject: [nabs-l] Walgreen proves the business case for hiring > 'disabled' > Message-ID: > < > ede3be875cde4b799c067b7461f67958 at BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > We underestimated them, it's as simple as that... The biggest impediment > to overcome is fear. > > > Walgreen proves the business case for hiring 'disabled' > > http://bloom-parentingkidswithdisabilities.blogspot.ca/2014/03/walgreen-proves-business-case- > > In 2006 Randy Lewis changed the way Walgreen Co. does business. > As senior vice-president of supply chain and logistics for the U.S. drug > store chain, Lewis oversaw 10,000 employees and up to a thousand new hires > each year. As a father to Austin, who has autism, he knew the difference a > job could make in the lives of young people with disabilities. > > In No Greatness Without Goodness Lewis explains > how he brought his corporate and personal worlds together, transforming > Walgreen's distribution centres into inclusive workplaces where people with > all kinds of physical and mental disabilities, many deemed unemployable, > work to the same standards and earn the same pay as other staff. > > The company's new mindset is proclaimed in a giant sign when you enter the > building with the words "No 'them'" in a circle and a line drawn through it. > > BLOOM: What is the message of your new book? > > Randy Lewis: It's the story of how I got involved with disability hiring, > why we did it as a company and how we were able to go from essentially zero > to 10 per cent of the workforce in five years. > > The reason I wrote it was one, so that people could understand that people > with disabilities could work effectively and have a positive impact on the > work environment. It wasn't just as good, it was better. > > And two, that we all tend to underestimate our power to effect change and > that everyone, I think, at their core really does want to change the world. > As leaders, if we can tap into that in ourselves, that we want to do good > things, we can unleash that in others. > > BLOOM: How did you get the idea to hire people with disabilities? > > Randy Lewis: I have a son with autism and so watching him grow up, I > shared the same dream of other parents like me-to live one day longer than > my child because you wonder what will happen to them after you're gone. > We'd go to these IEP conferences at school and I realized disability plays > no favourites. It strikes traditional and non-traditional families, rich > and poor. I got to thinking: 'What is going to happen to all of these other > kids and parents?' If we're hiring over here at Walgreen and there's a need > over there, why can't we bring those two worlds together? > > BLOOM: How did you sell the idea to the company? > > Randy Lewis: I said we're not going to lower any of our performance > standards, we're a business, not a charity, and if it didn't work out, we > wouldn't do it. What I discovered as an employer was we had lots of > invisible walls around us-systems that we thought were giving us the best > performers, but weren't. > > We were screening out a whole class of people who would never get through > the Internet job application, or interview well, or look and talk like > everyone else, or have all of their limbs. That was a huge turning point. > > BLOOM: How did you get buy-in from existing staff? > > Randy Lewis: We'd had some experience with enclaves, where we contract > with another company and they bring people in with disabilities, typically > to do janitorial or ancillary tasks, and they supervise them. All our > employees liked it, management liked it. Here we are helping these people, > but they weren't integrated. > > One day a team member told the group about how important this work was to > her and she showed a picture of these people with disabilities. They were > all wearing the same shirts and she was in the picture with them, also > wearing the same shirt. She made a point of telling me she was not 'one of > them,' but their sponsor. I knew that was a problem. We had not embraced > people with disabilities as equals. > > After that we hired a young man with Asperger's to work on the line at one > of our centres and he did a fantastic job. We had two women he worked with > and I talked to them and asked 'How are things working with Chuck? Are > people accepting him?' They said: 'If they don't, they have to deal with > us,' and I thought now we're making progress. > > Each of our buildings has different coloured plastic totes for shipping, > and in this building they were grey. A couple of times every day a purple > tote would get mixed up and come down the line and Chuck loved those purple > totes. He would dance every time he saw one. At one point we said 'Is that > appropriate behaviour for the workplace?' But then we got to thinking 'Why > not?' We'd rather have him dancing than complaining. > > So we started learning about inclusion and we were about to build a new > generation of building. We had experience with the enclaves, we knew Chuck > could work on the line, so I thought maybe this is time. Why don't we > develop our automation with people with disabilities in mind. > > BLOOM: How did you decide on what proportion of staff would have > disabilities? > > Randy Lewis: When it came time to plan a new-generation distribution > centre 10 years ago to handle our growing business, I believed it was an > opportunity to 'go big' with disability hiring in an intentional manner. We > were designing new equipment and we thought let's make it effective for > people with disabilities if we can do that with negligible cost. > > We talked to a fellow who worked with people with autism. We knew we > couldn't afford a lot of job coaches and we asked him how many typically > abled people would we initially need to provide support to a person with > autism, thinking the person with autism might be the most difficult to > employ. He said maybe two people. So we decided one-third of the workforce > is going to be a person with a disability. > > No one had ever done this anywhere in the world in a production > environment. If we don't get orders shipped accurately we're not in > business. This was a clear and elevating goal. We would hire 200 people > with disabilities out of 600 to staff this new-generation centre we were > building in South Carolina. > > Two years later we opened up a similar centre with the same goals near > Hartford, Conn. > > BLOOM: What did you learn? > > Randy Lewis: We discovered that people with disabilities could do all of > the jobs, not just the jobs we'd designed the equipment in mind for. The > automation we put in helped everyone, not just the people with > disabilities. We brought in managers from our other centres to show them > that it wasn't about the automation. That they didn't have to have > specialized equipment that we had in the new centre to be successful at > this. They liked what they saw and were ready to try it out in their less > automated buildings. And I asked them to set a clear and elevating goal and > they said let's hire 1,000 people by the year 2010. > > BLOOM: Why were the staff with disabilities so effective? > > Randy Lewis: We underestimated them, it's as simple as that. When we > measure performance, the people with disabilities perform as well > statistically as the others. The standard is not that they have to be > Superman or Jackie Robinson. But the employees with disabilities also have > fewer accidents, better retention, less absenteeism and they make people > better managers and create greater teamwork. > > BLOOM: So it sounds like overall there were definite advantages. > > Randy Lewis: Yes. > > BLOOM: Did the culture in these environments change for the better. > > Randy Lewis: I asked people in our South Carolina and Connecticut centres > who'd worked in other buildings without disability hiring, 'How did you > rank engagement when you were there?' And they'd say probably a seven or > eight out of 10. Then I asked them to compare that level of engagement with > what they saw in the building they were in now. They said the eight would > drop to a two. > > 'We didn't know what engagement was until we got here,' they said. 'We > didn't know what teamwork was like.' > > If you ask managers in the buildings with a large percentage of people > with disabilities what is their number one job, they'll say 'My job is to > make everybody who works for me successful.' When you have that kind of > attitude the workforce notices and they respond to it. > > BLOOM: How has the experience created better managers? > > Randy Lewis: We've learned to 'manage in the grey' and by that I mean we > want to manage with values or principles, not rules. People like rules, > bosses like rules because they're easier to administer. For some of our > supervisors that was uncomfortable at first, but I said if it's just about > administering rules I can get my own children to come in and run this > place. We asked people to look at the purpose of rules and apply what were > the principles of the rule, rather than the rule itself. This caused us to > look at a lot of our policies. > > We changed the way we hire and recruit because a lot of people can't get > through the Internet application system or need help applying. If there's a > discipline problem, we let the employee bring in a parent or advocate > because we want to make sure they understand and we understand. > > Sometimes we make exceptions to a rule. For example, I remember a > situation where a young man became frustrated because he had to work > overtime and he was going to miss a doctor's appointment. He punched a > computer screen and broke it. > > The rule is that if you break something intentionally, you're fired > forever and forever banned from the company. We got to thinking: 'Is that a > good rule? Is there ever an exception?' Even Aristotle way back when noted > that human behaviour is not mathematics, it's not finite reasoning, there > are exceptions to all things. > > So we went back and had to look at that policy as it applied to all of our > staff. We needed a framework. And it was: 'Is there an extenuating > circumstance? Is there a reason to expect the person won't do it again? And > what's the likelihood that they'll be able to find employment elsewhere?' > We don't decide in favour of the employee in every case, but we did in that > one. > > Our managers say this idea of managing in the grey is the most powerful > thing that's made them better managers. > > BLOOM: It sounds like they feel empowered in a new way. > > Randy Lewis: The change is huge. They talk about managing with love, a > word we've never used in the workplace. > A few years back we had the president of a Best Buy division come through > for a tour and afterwards he sat down with our managers to ask questions. > 'I've heard all the good things about this place,' he said. 'What's a bad > day like?' > > And essentially the supervisors said: 'A bad day is when I come in with my > own problems and I'm not focused on my staff and the work. You know that > saying 'You come home and you want to kick the dog?' If I do that at work > my staff will either shut down or start acting out or they'll confront me > and tell me why I'm being a jerk. Or they'll come up and give me a hug. One > thing I've learned is that when I'm here, it's about them, not me.' > > BLOOM: How costly is it to train people with disabilities? > > Randy Lewis: It was negligible. What we did was go out in the community > and get partners. We demanded that disability agencies in the community > form a coalition and work together with us. We built a training room in a > community-rented space and for a year the community screened and trained > people and taught them how to use our equipment. Now we have training rooms > within our buildings. > > Typically a new employee has 60 days' probation and by 60 days they have > to be up to full productivity. We anticipated that people with disabilities > might need longer because out training might not be right for everyone. So > we created an alternative pipeline into the company. If you have a > disability and want to come in that route you are paid as a temporary > employee, with no benefits, and you can stay in that group as long as > you're progressing towards full productivity. It might take 60 days or > less, some may take 90. One person took a year. Once they're at full > productivity they're hired as permanent staff. > > BLOOM: In a news story I saw you talked about an accommodation where you > name, as well as number, stations. Can you explain that? > > Randy Lewis: For someone who has difficulty with numbers and directions, > we've named stations as a group of animals in a zoo. So we might say > 'You'll be working at rhinoceros in zoo.' We also have a race-cart alley > and a hamburger alley. So perhaps you'll be working at the hot dog station > in hamburger alley. These are simple things that help some people. Most of > our accommodations cost less than $20 and most are paper and pencil. > > BLOOM: What's been the greatest challenge in implementing this model? > > Randy Lewis: The biggest impediment to overcome is fear. > > BLOOM: How did you manage that? > > Randy Lewis: To outsiders in the organization I said: 'We're here to make > money, we're here to make it work. If people with disabilities can't to the > job, they won't be working here.' > > To those who reported to me I said 'Our standard is to give it our very > best, so if it doesn't work, we can tell the world this is not possible. > Give it your very best, and if it doesn't work, we know no one else could > have done it better than us.' That was very freeing for everyone. > > We also said 'We don't have all the answers. There are going to be > problems we can't anticipate, so let's not worry about those. If you > anticipate a problem, let's figure out a way around it. And you can't bring > a What if? unless you've thought of a way around it. Most of the problems > we anticipated never happened.' > > BLOOM: What was a problem you didn't anticipate? > > Randy Lewis: We thought all of our systems were great for getting us the > best employees. We thought we'd build this and as soon as we put an ad in > the paper all of the people with disabilities would come flocking to us. We > didn't think about the fact that this is a group that doesn't read the > paper every morning looking for places to work. It's not a group that > trusts employers. It's a group that may have difficulty in even getting to > the job site for the interview. We didn't realize we had so many invisible > walls. > > It took some work for us to say gee whiz, we're going to have to do > something different. We worked with community agencies. We've had to teach > them to understand our jobs and send us people that they believe will be > successful. > > BLOOM: What are common myths about hiring people with disabilities? > > Randy Lewis: That they can't do the job, it's going to cost me more to > make them effective and when they fail I will get punished. > > BLOOM: Has Walgreen hired people who were considered unemployable? > > Randy Lewis: Lots of them. For most of them it's their first job. > > BLOOM: What does the average person get paid? > > Randy Lewis: They make close to US$30,000 on the production line. > > BLOOM: I heard that in a couple of your distribution centres as many as > half of all employees have disabilities. > > Randy Lewis: In our original centre in South Carolina, 40 per cent have > disabilities. In our newer centre in Connecticut, 50 per cent have > disabilities. In 2011 we achieved our goal of having 10 per cent of the > workforce made up by people with disabilities. Before I retired 14 months > ago, the centre managers from across the country met and set a new goal to > reach 20 per cent. > > BLOOM: What kind of impact do these jobs have on people with disabilities? > > Randy Lewis: For many a world of possibility, opportunity and > responsibility is opened to them for the first time. They have > relationships they've never had before. They have money they never had > before. And there are some unanticipated consequences, too. For instance, > some become like teenagers: they stay up too late at night playing video > games because they can afford them now. It's a whole village of people > working together that's expanded everyone's way of thinking. > > BLOOM: What advice would you give a parent who's concerned that their > child won't be able to get a job due to disabilities? > > Randy Lewis: The words we hear as parents of a child with a disability are > 'always' and 'never.' We have found that that's not necessarily true. I was > in Canada yesterday with a new organization of employers called > SensAbility. They're going to look for employers in Canada who will help > spread this model. Ontario's Lieutenant Governor David Onley has taken > employers to visit our site and is very active in helping Canada advance on > this front. So I'm very hopeful about Canada. > > BLOOM: What about your son. What are his dreams? > > Randy Lewis: I wish I knew. I wish he could tell me. He's 25 and he works > about 12 hours a week in a Walgreens store. There's a Michigan company > building a distribution centre about an hour from here in Chicago and the > owner has talked about how one day he wants Austin to be their employee. So > we're going to go up and see it. > > BLOOM: What impact do you hope your book will have? > > Randy Lewis: I hope people read it and believe it's possible and try it. > There are enough models out there to do it. We make only three cents on the > dollar, so our margins are razor thin. If Walgreen could do it-and we > didn't have any models to work from-anyone can do it. > > > > Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. > Deputy Executive Director > > National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute > 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place > Baltimore, Maryland 21230 > > (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) > (410) 659-5129 (FAX) > Email: alewis at nfb.org > Web: www.nfb.org > Twitter: @AnilLife > > The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the > characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the > expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles > between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; > blindness is not what holds you back. > > To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination > Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture< > http://www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture>. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:39:50 -0400 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > I hate the sound of the default NVDA. can you get the elloquence > synthesizer > for it? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:43 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive > > Hi Helga, > > I'm not a computer guru, so I'll admit I may be wrong on this; but I > don't think you can do this with JAWS. However, you can do it with > NVDA, which is a free screenreader you can download and install to a > flashdrive. I use a flashdrive with NVDA on it so I don't have to > worry about finding an inaccessible computer when I study at the > library, and it works really well. > > HTH. > > On 4/1/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com > wrote: > > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, is it > > true > > that you can put the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in order to > > take > > it around and use it in other computers that don't have the software? And > > if > > it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way that I can put it in my > thumb > > drive? I'm just wondering since I want to see and check my mom's computer > > or > > other friend's computer that doesn't have JAWS the Software, so that I > can > > use it. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me > some > > suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much > and > > God bless!! > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:38:09 -0400 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > Message-ID: <77328BBEDA50436084BDF1BAF398A8EC at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Kaiti, > The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. > Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > too. The idea > that we have to get out there and integrate into society on terms of > equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is kind of > conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; get a job. > Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that > you can be financially independent through other means with out the job. > What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances > who > don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a > full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing > nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > raisers edge. > The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps > with no outside help. > So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB > is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things > may change soon. > > That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this > does not happen again. > > Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > disability groups. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, > that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > happen > > again. > > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they > > just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > devisions > > are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling > > of > > > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters > > and > > > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what > > happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of > > backing the wrong person. > > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up > > in > > > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of > > the federation. Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > > withmultipledisabilities? > > > > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > > special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > > criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > > sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > > activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > > meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > > politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > > the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > > about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > > words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the > >> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under > >> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > >> occurring. > >> > >> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > diverse > >> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I > >> also > >> > >> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they > >> have > >> > >> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to > >> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and > >> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered > >> people. > >> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement > >> and > >> > >> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the > >> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the > >> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > >> purposes. > >> > >> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > >> changes > >> > >> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > what > >> happens. > >> Have a blessed day. > >> Best Wishes > >> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >> multipledisabilities? > >> > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >> help them with. > >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I > >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional > >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the > >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >> > >> Best, > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>> Joe and others, > >>> > >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative > >>> is > >>> wrong. Organizations are made up of > >>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely > >>> going > >>> > >>> to > >>> be perfect. Still, some of what one > >>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > >>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good > >>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise > >>> more > >>> funds than we used to have to raise. I > >>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this > is > >>> a > >>> risk. When you look at our budget and > >>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, > >>> it > >>> is certainly clear that legislative > >>> successes are not > >>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with > >>> legislation > >>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the > >>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I > >>> feel > >>> particularly more so now that our > >>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take > >>> accessibility, > >>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis > >>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be > >>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe > >>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > >>> particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >>> limits > >>> of current technology and explore ways > >>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited > >>> about > >>> being able to drive a car, although I > >>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I > >>> got > >>> very excited about the fact that as a > >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways > >>> of > >>> getting information that had not been > >>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the > KNFB > >>> reader. At the time, it was something > >>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB > >>> reader to the lists of registered people at > >>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have > it > >>> start to read the content. There have > >>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of > >>> one > >>> kind or another through our efforts. We > >>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, > >>> teachers, and major players in the > >>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or > >>> 90's, > >>> and much of this would not have been > >>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. > >>> > >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My > >>> point is that a lot of this is about risks > >>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these > >>> efforts > >>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a > >>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one > >>> learns > >>> from what does, because if you make a > >>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those > >>> thousand kids get into math or science > >>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little > >>> better > >>> because of what we did with the KNFB > >>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever > >>> see > >>> a reader that could use artificial > >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of > >>> having > >>> > >>> to > >>> educate every person who writes > >>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for > >>> us > >>> > >>> to > >>> control the Google self-driving cars > >>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at > least > >>> some of the answers are yes, but at this > >>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic > >>> grass > >>> roots organization that we were in the > >>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, > nor > >>> was > >>> it the right time for that. But it > >>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes > >>> as > >>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see > >>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not > >>> satisfied > >>> to say that it has to be that way, > >>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as > >>> an > >>> organization. > >>> > >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers > >>> won't > >>> miraculously make life better, and > >>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to > draw > >>> conclusions about such training based > >>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and > >>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind > >>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in > >>> Minnesota and I assume by our other > >>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea > >>> that > >>> you have to have a set of tools to > >>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do > >>> more > >>> than run people through training. > >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > Legislating > >>> that software must be accessible and that > >>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still > needed, > >>> but > >>> it won't matter much if we don't have > >>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if > >>> we > >>> don't get a good basic education. > >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if > >>> there are no braille instructors in a > >>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead > >>> to > >>> success by itself, and you can't see any > >>> given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>> > >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > the > >>> complex challenges we face with a larger > >>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we > >>> understand where we are going and how our > >>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the > >>> challenges of the world and what do we need > >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone > >>> asking questions like that outside of this > >>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our > >>> understanding of asking for help and looking for > >>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is > >>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk > >>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all > >>> members, though, to handle change. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Steve Jacobson > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>> > >>>>Arielle, > >>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>> > >>>>Joe, > >>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring > >>>> my > >>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I > >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw > >>> potential the organization has moving > >>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to > >>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this > >>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members > >>> who > >>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of > >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in > a > >>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to > >>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the > line > >>> and > >>> pander to those with political power > >>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more > still > >>> within our local chapters. > >>> > >>>>Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Joe, > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > >>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > >>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > >>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > >>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > >>>>> drawings and the like. > >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due > to > >>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > >>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative > >>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. > >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > >>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > judgment > >>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > >>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > >>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find > that > >>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > >>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of > the > >>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > >>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > >>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not > all > >>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > >>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > >>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, > >>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > >>>>> > >>>>> Arielle > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >>>>>> Hello all. > >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own > >>>>>> life, > >>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits > all > >>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > >>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>> Mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>> mailing > >>>>>> list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>>>>> without > >>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. > >>>>>> RJ > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: "Joe" > >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > there > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> was > >>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the > >>>>>>> company > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me > as > >>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer > as > >>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the > >>>>>>> real > >>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending > a > >>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend > >>>>>>> leadership > >>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a > person's > >>>>>>> spirit, > >>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced > >>>>>>> with > >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>>>>>> nonprofit > >>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs > >>>>>>> more > >>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather > >>>>>>> disappointing > >>>>>>> that > >>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > >>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I > >>>>>>> found > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly > >>>>>>> dose > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >>>>>>> generating > >>>>>>> more > >>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most > >>>>>>> frustrating > >>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends > >>>>>>> from > >>>>>>> whom > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > NFB > >>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > about > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development > >>>>>>> efforts > >>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national > >>>>>>> in > >>>>>>> scope. > >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>>>>>> top, > >>>>>>> or > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new > >>>>>>> blood > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and > >>>>>>> resources > >>>>>>> we've already had. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>>>>>> professionals. > >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever > >>>>>>> will > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were > >>>>>>> never > >>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in > >>>>>>> mind > >>>>>>> when > >>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too > >>>>>>> much > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>>>>>> enough > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really > meant > >>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> NFB > >>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining > >>>>>>> true > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find > >>>>>>> ourselves > >>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > don't > >>>>>>> want > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know > >>>>>>> what > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the > >>>>>>> verge > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will > >>>>>>> only > >>>>>>> guide > >>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be > >>>>>>> your > >>>>>>> own > >>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never > >>>>>>> give > >>>>>>> you > >>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you > >>>>>>> always > >>>>>>> had > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > and > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> will > >>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the > NFB > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. > >>>>>>> Whether > >>>>>>> or > >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> exist. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what > >>>>>>> I've > >>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem > >>>>>>> happier, > >>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The > >>>>>>> few > >>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be > a > >>>>>>> lesson > >>>>>>> in financial management to you. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>>>>>> would > >>>>>>> never > >>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to > >>>>>>> provide > >>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up > >>>>>>> through > >>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have > no > >>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they > >>>>>>> couldn't > >>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you > >>>>>>> excel > >>>>>>> at > >>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the > >>>>>>> greater > >>>>>>> our > >>>>>>> strength. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to > >>>>>>> answer > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>>>>>> consume > >>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will > >>>>>>> not, > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Visit my blog: > >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 18:35:34 +0000 > From: "Lewis, Anil" > To: "Affiliate Presidents > (state-affiliate-leadership-list at nfbnet.org)" > , "NFB Chapter > Presidents > discussion list (chapter-presidents at nfbnet.org)" > , "NABS List (nabs-l at nfbnet.org)" > > Subject: [nabs-l] The American Dream Fellowship > Message-ID: > < > 04706f3805614a9e92b3323e21d80adc at BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Michael Gamel-McCormick > Disability Policy Director > Chairman Tom Harkin > Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions > 404 Senate Hart Office Building > w-(202)224-7692 > c- (302)367-4282 > > The American Dream Fellowship > > The Cisneros Center for New Americans is > excited to announce the creation of the American Dream Fellowship< > http://www.cisneroscenter.org/american-dream-initiative/>, a paid > opportunity for young and driven leaders who are passionate about > empowering new immigrant families to fully engage their communities and > live out their American Dream. > > During this paid 13-month fellowship, fellows will work together with > community stakeholders in our inaugural host community of Northwest > Arkansas to address barriers to integration for new immigrant families. > Fellows will educate, advocate, and innovate. > > Educate. Fellows will work to instill a sense of urgency about education > in new immigrant families by engaging family members in educational goals > and breaking down barriers to academic achievement. In the process, the > Fellows themselves will grow in their understanding and appreciation of the > host community, and will embark in their own journey of personal growth. > > Advocate. Fellows will work to Improve access for new immigrants to the > resources and services they need to pursue the American Dream, including > through the path we have developed: A Road Map to The American Dream. To do > this, Fellows will create strong and meaningful relationships with > community members and stakeholders, and use their work to lend a voice to > the community's needs. > > Innovate. Fellows will work closely with the community to leverage > collective impact, proven strategies, and innovative technologies. The host > community's leadership and fellows will work closely to generate creative > solutions that maximize resources and impact. > > The American Dream Fellowship will begin in July of 2014 and run through > August of the 2015. During the first month of their commitment, fellows > will participate in a rigorous training based in San Antonio. While in > Northwest Arkansas fellows will be supported and developed by the Cisneros > Center staff and high level leaders. > > Fellows will receive a competitive salary of $50,000 and full benefits. > > To learn more about the Fellow profile, click here.< > http://www.cisneroscenter.org/who-do-we-look-for/> > > For additional information about the fellowship, click here< > http://www.cisneroscenter.org/why-join/>. > > How do you apply? > > Interested individuals can apply here< > https://cisneroscenter.submittable.com/submit/bbf7f877-64ff-41d2-adb0-701f32b6723a>. > The deadline for nominations and applications is 11:59 pm EST on Sunday, > April 13, 2014. > The application includes: > > * Basic information > * Resume > * Personal Statement > > Please visit www.cisneroscenter.org/apply< > http://www.cisneroscenter.org/apply/> to apply. > > > > > > > > Alyssa Mowitz > Majority Staff * Disability Policy and Oversight Office > Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions > Chairman Tom Harkin > 404 Hart Senate Office Building > (202) 224-233 > > > Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. > Deputy Executive Director > > National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute > 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place > Baltimore, Maryland 21230 > > (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) > (410) 659-5129 (FAX) > Email: alewis at nfb.org > Web: www.nfb.org > Twitter: @AnilLife > > The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the > characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the > expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles > between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; > blindness is not what holds you back. > > To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination > Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture< > http://www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture>. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:28:31 -0400 > From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > Message-ID: <004f01cf4ea9$bb7b1900$32714b00$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. > Great point Ashley. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Kaiti, > The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. > Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on > terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is > kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; > get > a job. > Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you can > be financially independent through other means with out the job. > What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances > who > don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a > full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing > nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > raisers edge. > The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps > with no outside help. > So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB > is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things > may change soon. > > That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this > does not happen again. > > Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > disability groups. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may > call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > people, > and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with > the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the > various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > I'm > really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed > out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's > okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but > a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian > even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > the > views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not > under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > hate > for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend > that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the > right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > circumstances > doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > > happen again. > > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > > be the darling of > > > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > > chapters and > > > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > > examples of backing the wrong person. > > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew > > up in > > > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling > > of the federation. Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > > withmultipledisabilities? > > > > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > > special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > > criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > > sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > > activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > > meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > > politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > > the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > > about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > > words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But > >> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of > >> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this > >> is not occurring. > >> > >> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > >> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > >> diverse. I also > >> > >> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > >> they have > >> > >> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > >> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came > >> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and > >> transgendered people. > >> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > >> announcement and > >> > >> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > >> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > >> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for > >> social purposes. > >> > >> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > >> changes > >> > >> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > >> what happens. > >> Have a blessed day. > >> Best Wishes > >> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >> multipledisabilities? > >> > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number > >> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, > >> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true > >> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities > >> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >> help them with. > >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind > >> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss > >> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been > >> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental > >> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and > >> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such > >> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or > >> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them > >> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have > >> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the > >> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and > >> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if > >> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes > >> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how > >> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there > >> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > >> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from > >> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are > >> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >> > >> Best, > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>> Joe and others, > >>> > >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > >>> > >>> to > >>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't > >>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We > >>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in > >>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do > >>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this > >>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then > >>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear > >>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. > >>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I > >>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt > >>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems > >>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for > >>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation > >>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I > >>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make > >>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > >>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > >>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a > >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of > >>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A > >>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the > >>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving > >>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered > >>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a > >>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably > >>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one > >>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor > >>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major > >>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this > >>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even > >>> now if we hadn't tried it. > >>> > >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much > >>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you > >>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some > >>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we > >>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of > >>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader > >>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial > >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of > >>> having > >>> > >>> to > >>> educate every person who writes > >>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > >>> for us > >>> > >>> to > >>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we > >>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are > >>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that > >>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the > >>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, > >>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we > >>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to > >>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the > >>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be > >>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as > >>> individuals and as an organization. > >>> > >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > >>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as > >>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND > >>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. > >>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you > >>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not > >>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through > >>> training. > >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it > >>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even > >>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic > >>> education. > >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>> > >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > >>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > >>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > >>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > >>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > >>> help of all members, though, to handle change. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Steve Jacobson > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>> > >>>>Arielle, > >>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>> > >>>>Joe, > >>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I > >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the > >>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I > >>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I > >>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB > >>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of > >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics > >>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame > >>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to > >>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the > >>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. > >>> > >>>>Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Joe, > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also > >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a > >>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and > >>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is > >>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. > >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut > >>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable > >>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. > >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is > >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped > >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of > >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance > >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind > >>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I > >>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so > >>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative > >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and > >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this > is > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > >>>>> > >>>>> Arielle > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >>>>>> Hello all. > >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my > >>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one > >>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB > >>>>>> does. > >>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>> Mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>> mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have > >>>>>> a mentoor. > >>>>>> RJ > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: "Joe" > >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad > >>>>>>> to be in the company > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited > >>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up > >>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's > >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington > >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. > >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I > >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in > >>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I > >>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting > >>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to > >>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder > >>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the > >>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the > >>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. > >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>>>>>> professionals. > >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, > >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or > >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's > >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste > >>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should > >>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women > >>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, > >>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>>>>>> sustaining. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>>>>>> don't want > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college > >>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to > >>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's > >>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and > >>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and > >>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > >>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what > >>>>>>> you always had > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave > >>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer > >>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective > >>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. > >>>>>>> Whether > >>>>>>> or > >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >>>>>>> want it to exist. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the > >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do > >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial > >>>>>>> management to you. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new > >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if > >>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. > >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut > >>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you > >>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there > >>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here > >>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some > >>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be > >>>>>>> this: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Visit my blog: > >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks > >>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > >>>>>> le%40frontier.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >>>>>> mail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 > >>>>> 0gmail.com > >>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 > >>>>0visi.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail > >> .com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. > > com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > > 40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 14:44:54 -0500 > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > Message-ID: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Hi everyone, > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred percent > agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ services for > the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with blindness. > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental illness. I > agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and them not > understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how mental illness > might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of misunderstanding with > blindness profesionals not understanding how mental illness might interfere > with living on one's own getting a standard full time job ETC and so their > scope of services don't allow for anything outside what they perceive to be > normal. > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is a > very > close knit community and we all support each other day to day with these > struggles, providing encouragement and resources if possible and most of > all > just our friendship. > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric clinic > and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know anthing about > this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a contact person as > I'd be very curious to know more about the program and how they do > things. > > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree > described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted > and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship. > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will not > take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them > because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man to > woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a > guy > from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up > and > take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us from > marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of > Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be > complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound > harsh. > Beth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may > call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > people, > and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with > the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the > various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > I'm > really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed > out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's > okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but > a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian > even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > the > views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not > under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > hate > for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend > that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the > right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > circumstances > doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen > again. > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they > just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions > are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling > of > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters > and > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what > happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of > backing the wrong person. > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up > in > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of > the federation. Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > withmultipledisabilities? > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like > that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely understand > the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special interest. > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should > constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car > enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an LGBT > group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want > LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious > invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever > even been polled about whether to keep having these religious invocations? > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we really > need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what > kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a > division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can > probably > be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping > up > a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would have > been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that > wasn't supported. > > Arielle > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > But the > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under > served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > occurring. > > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse > population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I > also > > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they > have > > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to > assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and > wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement > and > > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the > federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the > leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > purposes. > > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > changes > > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what > happens. > Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > multipledisabilities? > > > Hi all, > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue that's > come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also > have > other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with > additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the > number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting > educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that, > for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to > the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think > that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when we > think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental > illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but > especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to > stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I > can > see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or > chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks > who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the > ups > and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly > creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting > lost. > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment, > education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just blindness, > but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups within > the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, > but > I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard > about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes > sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd > want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has > not been formed. > I > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > exist > because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't been > enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such > divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain > leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a > vehicle > for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups > specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I > hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you > about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While > there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to > be > elected and welcomed in these positions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Joe and others, > > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative > is > wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect > so > our creations are not likely going > > to > be perfect. Still, some of what one > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an > expansion > that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to > raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that > this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and > then > compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that > legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I > completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the > ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation > alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of > emphasis > on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be > accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it > isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all > by itself. > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that > is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a > car, > although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. > However, I > got > very excited about the fact that as a > result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways > of > getting information that had not been explored before. A significant > portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was > something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up > a > KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended > science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been > able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and > major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this > in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now > if we hadn't tried it. > > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My > point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't > know > for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. > Frankly, > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as > one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get > into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS > product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a > computer screen instead of having > > to > educate every person who writes > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us > > to > control the Google self-driving cars > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least > some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I > do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were > in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed > above, > nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, > what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm > not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and > must > learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. > > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers > won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes > imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such > training > based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and > challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what > is > addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our > other > centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that > you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just > one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > Legislating > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based > upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we > don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that > much if we don't get a good basic education. > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if > there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one > thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't > see > any given issue as completely standing on its own. > > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the > complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it > is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how > our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the > challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more > important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that > outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I > think > our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is > what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that > branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We > need the help of all members, though, to handle change. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > > Arielle, > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > > Joe, > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my > own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's > history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving > forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to > cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think > the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors > of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in > a > no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when > those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with > political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, > and more still within our local chapters. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > Braille > Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the > increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national > convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors and > prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on > philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the > like. > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now, > and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a > decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources. > So > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a loss > of programs and resources. > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly shameful. I > do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because > they > perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle > choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is > reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all > organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially > sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real lack > of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and > was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt completely > accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage > prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a > different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance there. > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the > organization. > > Arielle > > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > wrote: > Hello all. > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, > live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all > mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > Thanks. > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without > the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. > RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I > was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the > company > > of > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a > recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a > counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real > world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a > national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership > seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's > spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced > with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit > business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more > members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing > that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. > I > found > it > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose > of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating > more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most > frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called > friends from whom > > I > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > fundraising campaigns. > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the > movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts > for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in > scope. > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or > the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new > blood > and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and > resources we've already had. > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > professionals. > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will > be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the > organization because they were turned away or because they were never > welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind > when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too > much of > > a > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough > to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant > attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB > lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true > to > the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves > incapable of sustaining. > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want > > it > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what > I > think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of > spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only > guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave > the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be > your > own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never > give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you > always had > > to > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I > will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse > this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB > is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. > Whether > or > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it > to > exist. > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've > found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem > happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. > The > few > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > lesson in financial management to you. > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would > never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to > provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up > through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have > no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they > couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you > excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the > greater our strength. > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be > the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to > answer > the original question, my answer would be this: > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume > what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, > and > wisdom to recognize the difference. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > ndefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > le%40frontier.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > 40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso > n%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > t104%40gmail.com > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 > 07%40comcast.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:06:52 -0600 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > Message-ID: > YeX5TK22OW8zapRap11moBS5JZeNg55Dw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division > could work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division > that is led by blind people with mental illness. > Arielle > > On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred percent > > agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ services > for > > the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with > blindness. > > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental illness. > I > > agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and them not > > understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how mental illness > > might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of misunderstanding with > > blindness profesionals not understanding how mental illness might > interfere > > with living on one's own getting a standard full time job ETC and so > their > > scope of services don't allow for anything outside what they perceive to > be > > normal. > > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is a > > very > > close knit community and we all support each other day to day with these > > struggles, providing encouragement and resources if possible and most of > > all > > just our friendship. > > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric clinic > > and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know anthing about > > this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a contact person > as > > I'd be very curious to know more about the program and how they do > > things. > > > > Sam > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth > Taurasi > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > > > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree > > described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted > > and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship. > > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will > not > > take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them > > because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man > to > > woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a > > guy > > from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up > > and > > take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us > from > > marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of > > Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would > be > > complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound > > harsh. > > Beth > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > > > Hello all, > > > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > may > > call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > > with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > > blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > > working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > > people, > > and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > > tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally > with > > the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > > relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from > the > > various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have > phrased > > it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > > I'm > > really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle > pointed > > out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, > it's > > okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > > (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > > aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, > but > > a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > > reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > > unitarian > > even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > > realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > > the > > views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > > just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was > not > > under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > > remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > > the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > > part of convention? > > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > > hate > > for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > > because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to > pretend > > that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve > the > > right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > > circumstances > > doesn't seem right. > > Sorry for the rant. > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > happen > > again. > > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they > > just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > devisions > > are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling > > of > > > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters > > and > > > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what > > happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of > > backing the wrong person. > > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew > up > > in > > > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling > of > > the federation. Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > > withmultipledisabilities? > > > > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like > > that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > understand > > the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special > interest. > > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should > > constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car > > enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an > LGBT > > group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want > > LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious > > invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever > > even been polled about whether to keep having these religious > invocations? > > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects > the > > president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > really > > need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what > > kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a > > division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can > > probably > > be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping > > up > > a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would > have > > been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that > > wasn't supported. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > > But the > > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under > > served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > > occurring. > > > > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > diverse > > population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I > > also > > > > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they > > have > > > > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to > > assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and > > wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered > people. > > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement > > and > > > > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the > > federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the > > leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > > purposes. > > > > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > > changes > > > > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > what > > happens. > > Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > > multipledisabilities? > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > that's > > come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also > > have > > other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with > > additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the > > number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting > > educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think > that, > > for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training > to > > the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think > > that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate > the > > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > we > > think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental > > illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but > > especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to > > stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I > > can > > see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or > > chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks > > who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the > > ups > > and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly > > creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting > > lost. > > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment, > > education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. > > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > blindness, > > but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups > within > > the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, > > but > > I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard > > about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes > > sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns > they'd > > want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has > > not been formed. > > I > > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > > exist > > because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't > been > > enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such > > divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain > > leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a > > vehicle > > for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups > > specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on > blindness. I > > hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from > you > > about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While > > there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > > positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the > > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to > > be > > elected and welcomed in these positions. > > > > Best, > > Arielle > > > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > > Joe and others, > > > > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative > > is > > wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect > > so > > our creations are not likely going > > > > to > > be perfect. Still, some of what one > > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an > > expansion > > that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have > to > > raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing > that > > this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and > > then > > compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear > that > > legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I > > completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that > the > > ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I > feel > > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by > legislation > > alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of > > emphasis > > on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be > > accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it > > isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, > all > > by itself. > > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > that > > is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a > > car, > > although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. > > However, I > > got > > very excited about the fact that as a > > result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways > > of > > getting information that had not been explored before. A significant > > portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was > > something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held > up > > a > > KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention > > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the > > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have > attended > > science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have > been > > able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, > and > > major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of > this > > in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even > now > > if we hadn't tried it. > > > > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My > > point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't > > know > > for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. > > Frankly, > > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as > > one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can > > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get > > into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS > > product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? > > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a > > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a > > computer screen instead of having > > > > to > > educate every person who writes > > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for > us > > > > to > > control the Google self-driving cars > > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least > > some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. > What I > > do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we > were > > in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed > > above, > > nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. > > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. > Joe, > > what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. > I'm > > not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and > > must > > learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. > > > > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers > > won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes > > imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such > > training > > based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties > and > > challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what > > is > > addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our > > other > > centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea > that > > you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not > just > > one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > > Legislating > > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based > > upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if > we > > don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all > that > > much if we don't get a good basic education. > > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if > > there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any > one > > thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't > > see > > any given issue as completely standing on its own. > > > > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the > > complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, > it > > is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and > how > > our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address > the > > challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more > > important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that > > outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I > > think > > our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions > is > > what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that > > branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We > > need the help of all members, though, to handle change. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Steve Jacobson > > > > > > > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > > > > Arielle, > > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > > > > Joe, > > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring > my > > own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's > > history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has > moving > > forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to > > cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I > think > > the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and > mirrors > > of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics > in > > a > > no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though > when > > those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with > > political power are treated with hostility by some at the national > level, > > and more still within our local chapters. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: > > > > Hi Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > > Braille > > Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the > > increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national > > convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors > and > > prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on > > philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the > > like. > > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now, > > and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a > > decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources. > > So > > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a > loss > > of programs and resources. > > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > shameful. I > > do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because > > they > > perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle > > choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is > > reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all > > organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially > > sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real > lack > > of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again, > is > > unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and > > was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt > completely > > accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage > > prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a > > different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance > there. > > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in > the > > organization. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > > wrote: > > Hello all. > > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own > life, > > live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all > > mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RJ Sandefur > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > mailing > > list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > without > > the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. > > RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > > > > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I > > was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the > > company > > > > of > > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a > > recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a > > counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real > > world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a > > national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend > leadership > > seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's > > spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced > > with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > > > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit > > business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more > > members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing > > that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > > dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. > > I > > found > > it > > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly > dose > > of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > generating > > more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most > > frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called > > friends from whom > > > > I > > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > > fundraising campaigns. > > > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about > the > > movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development > efforts > > for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in > > scope. > > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, > or > > the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new > > blood > > and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and > > resources we've already had. > > > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > > professionals. > > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever > will > > be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun > the > > organization because they were turned away or because they were never > > welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind > > when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too > > much of > > > > a > > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough > > to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant > > attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the > NFB > > lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true > > to > > the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves > > incapable of sustaining. > > > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't > want > > > > it > > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what > > I > > think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge > of > > spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only > > guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and > leave > > the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be > > your > > own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never > > give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you > > always had > > > > to > > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I > > will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse > > this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the > NFB > > is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. > > Whether > > or > > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it > > to > > exist. > > > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what > I've > > found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem > > happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. > > The > > few > > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > > lesson in financial management to you. > > > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would > > never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to > > provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming > up > > through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you > have > > no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they > > couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of > you > > excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the > > greater our strength. > > > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be > > the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to > > answer > > the original question, my answer would be this: > > > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > consume > > what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, > > and > > wisdom to recognize the difference. > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > > > Visit my blog: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > > ndefur%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > > le%40frontier.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > > 40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso > > n%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > > info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > > t104%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 > > 07%40comcast.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:12:47 -0600 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism > Message-ID: > < > CALAYQJAwXBGM9vQqw2ouMGs8+Aed6Crq2TXznjDU7KsSAOWxNw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy > itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" > mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also > historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind > including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal > position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've > picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and > pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in > addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. > In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent > years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think > the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual > approach of empowering blind people while also making environments > more hospitable for us. > > Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on > themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the > old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often > stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are > today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider > (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out > to other blind people for help. > > Arielle > > On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: > > The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. > > Great point Ashley. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > > Bramlett > > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > > > Kaiti, > > The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions > too. > > > > Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > > I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > > too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on > > terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is > > kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; > > get > > a job. > > Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you > can > > be financially independent through other means with out the job. > > What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances > > who > > don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes > a > > full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is > doing > > nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > > raisers edge. > > The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your > bootstraps > > with no outside help. > > So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and > ACB > > is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > > values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. > Things > > may change soon. > > > > That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > > I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope > this > > does not happen again. > > > > Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > > disability groups. > > > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kaiti Shelton > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > > > Hello all, > > > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > may > > call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > > with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > > blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > > working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > > people, > > and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > > tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally > with > > the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > > relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from > the > > various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have > phrased > > it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > > I'm > > really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle > pointed > > out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, > it's > > okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > > (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > > aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, > but > > a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > > reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > > unitarian > > even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > > realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > > the > > views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > > just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was > not > > under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > > remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > > the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > > part of convention? > > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > > hate > > for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > > because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to > pretend > > that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve > the > > right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > > circumstances > > doesn't seem right. > > Sorry for the rant. > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > >> happen again. > >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > >> be the darling of > >> > >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > >> chapters and > >> > >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > >> examples of backing the wrong person. > >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew > >> up in > >> > >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling > >> of the federation. Have a blessed day. > >> Best Wishes > >> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > >> withmultipledisabilities? > >> > >> > >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But > >>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of > >>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this > >>> is not occurring. > >>> > >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > >>> diverse. I also > >>> > >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > >>> they have > >>> > >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came > >>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and > >>> transgendered people. > >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > >>> announcement and > >>> > >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for > >>> social purposes. > >>> > >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > >>> changes > >>> > >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > >>> what happens. > >>> Have a blessed day. > >>> Best Wishes > >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >>> multipledisabilities? > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number > >>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, > >>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true > >>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities > >>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >>> help them with. > >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind > >>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss > >>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been > >>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental > >>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and > >>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such > >>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or > >>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them > >>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have > >>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the > >>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and > >>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if > >>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes > >>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how > >>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there > >>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from > >>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are > >>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>>> Joe and others, > >>>> > >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > >>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't > >>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We > >>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in > >>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do > >>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this > >>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then > >>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear > >>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. > >>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I > >>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt > >>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems > >>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for > >>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation > >>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I > >>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make > >>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > >>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > >>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > >>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a > >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of > >>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A > >>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the > >>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving > >>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered > >>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a > >>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably > >>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one > >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor > >>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major > >>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this > >>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even > >>>> now if we hadn't tried it. > >>>> > >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > >>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > >>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much > >>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you > >>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some > >>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we > >>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of > >>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader > >>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial > >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of > >>>> having > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> educate every person who writes > >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > >>>> for us > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we > >>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are > >>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that > >>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the > >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, > >>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we > >>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to > >>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the > >>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be > >>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as > >>>> individuals and as an organization. > >>>> > >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > >>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as > >>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND > >>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. > >>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you > >>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not > >>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through > >>>> training. > >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it > >>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even > >>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic > >>>> education. > >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > >>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > >>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > >>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>>> > >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > >>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > >>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > >>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > >>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > >>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > >>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > >>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > >>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. > >>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>> > >>>> Steve Jacobson > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Arielle, > >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>>> > >>>>>Joe, > >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >>>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I > >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the > >>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I > >>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I > >>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB > >>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of > >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics > >>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame > >>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to > >>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the > >>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. > >>>> > >>>>>Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Joe, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also > >>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a > >>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and > >>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is > >>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. > >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut > >>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable > >>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > >>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. > >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > >>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is > >>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped > >>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > >>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of > >>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance > >>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > >>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind > >>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I > >>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so > >>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative > >>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and > >>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this > >>>>>> is > > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arielle > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >>>>>>> Hello all. > >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my > >>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one > >>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB > >>>>>>> does. > >>>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>>> mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have > >>>>>>> a mentoor. > >>>>>>> RJ > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Joe" > >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad > >>>>>>>> to be in the company > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited > >>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up > >>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > >>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's > >>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington > >>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. > >>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I > >>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in > >>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I > >>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting > >>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to > >>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder > >>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the > >>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the > >>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. > >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>>>>>>> professionals. > >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, > >>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or > >>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's > >>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste > >>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should > >>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women > >>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, > >>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>>>>>>> sustaining. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>>>>>>> don't want > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college > >>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to > >>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's > >>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and > >>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and > >>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > >>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what > >>>>>>>> you always had > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave > >>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer > >>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective > >>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. > >>>>>>>> Whether > >>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >>>>>>>> want it to exist. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the > >>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > >>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do > >>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial > >>>>>>>> management to you. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new > >>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if > >>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. > >>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut > >>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you > >>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there > >>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here > >>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some > >>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be > >>>>>>>> this: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: > >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks > >>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > >>>>>>> le%40frontier.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >>>>>>> mail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 > >>>>>> 0gmail.com > >>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 > >>>>>0visi.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai > >>>> l.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. > >> com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> 40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > > net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:24:23 -0500 > From: "Sam Nelson" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > Message-ID: <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Hi Ariel, > I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which is > such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > > I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could > work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is led > by blind people with mental illness. > Arielle > > On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred > > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ > > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along > with blindness. > > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental > > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and > > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how > > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of > > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how > > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a > > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow > > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. > > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is > > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day > > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if > > possible and most of all just our friendship. > > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric > > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know > > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a > > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program > > and how they do things. > > > > Sam > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth > > Taurasi > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > > > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing > > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because > > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that > guardianship. > > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they > > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case > > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects > > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship > > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, > > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But > > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such > > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" > > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if > > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. > > Beth > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > > > Hello all, > > > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and > > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities > > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a > > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the > > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then > > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with > > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it > > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, > > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as > > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the > > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss > > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is > > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather > > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people > > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, > > that just doesn't make sense. > > > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself > > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are > > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't > > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important > > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had > > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this > > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? > > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I > > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are > > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit > > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > > Sorry for the rant. > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > > happen again. > > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > > be the darling of > > > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > > chapters and > > > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > > examples of backing the wrong person. > > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and > > grew up in > > > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the > > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > > withmultipledisabilities? > > > > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > special interest. > > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what > > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a > > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then > > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't > > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically > > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general > > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about whether > to keep having these religious invocations? > > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects > > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > > But the > > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the > > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > > occurring. > > > > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > > diverse. I also > > > > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > > they have > > > > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together > > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered > people. > > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > > announcement and > > > > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > > purposes. > > > > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > > changes > > > > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > > what happens. > > Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > > multipledisabilities? > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help > them with. > > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. > > I > > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > > > > Best, > > Arielle > > > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > > Joe and others, > > > > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > > > > to > > be perfect. Still, some of what one > > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an > > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we > > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB > > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our > > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as > > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are > > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with > > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made > > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by > > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is > > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force > > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is > > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > > particularly on the job, all by itself. > > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > > at some point. > > However, I > > got > > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the > > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information > > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our > > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something > > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB > > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention > > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the > > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have > > attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. > > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind > > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We > > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this > > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. > > > > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > > difference. > > Frankly, > > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work > > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can > > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids > > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the > > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB > reader? > > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a > > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software > > on a computer screen instead of having > > > > to > > educate every person who writes > > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > > for us > > > > to > > control the Google self-driving cars > > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at > > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really > > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots > > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on > > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. > > But it also means that we change. > > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. > > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of > > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, > > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as > > an organization. > > > > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a > > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated > > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the > > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have > > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. > > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > > Legislating > > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate > > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter > > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't > > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. > > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > > > > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > > help of all members, though, to handle change. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Steve Jacobson > > > > > > > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > > > > Arielle, > > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > > > > Joe, > > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the > > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the > > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in > > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this > > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members > > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to > > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that > > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less > > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power > > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more > > still within our local chapters. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: > > > > Hi Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > > drawings and the like. > > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to > > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > sources. > > So > > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a > > loss of programs and resources. > > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment > > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that > > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the > > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all > > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. > > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in > > the organization. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > > wrote: > > Hello all. > > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own > > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size > > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RJ Sandefur > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > > mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a > mentoor. > > RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > > > > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there > > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in > > the company > > > > of > > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as > > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as > > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the > > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from > > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the > > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited > > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall > > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent > gatherings. > > > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it > > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather > > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen > > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or > that > effort. > > I > > found > > it > > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly > > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps > > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from > > so-called friends from whom > > > > I > > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > > fundraising campaigns. > > > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about > > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development > > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also > > national in scope. > > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > > > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > > professionals. > > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever > > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they > > shun the organization because they were turned away or because they > > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have > > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the > > organization. I had too much of > > > > a > > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have > > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could > > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most > > important, remaining true to the cause and not some > > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > > sustaining. > > > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't > > want > > > > it > > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know > > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the > > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner > > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the > > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys > > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will > > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The > > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > > > > to > > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and > > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to > > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world > > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen > to that. > > Whether > > or > > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want > > it to exist. > > > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what > > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They > > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our > camp. > > The > > few > > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > > lesson in financial management to you. > > > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only > > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of > > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste > > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher > > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I > > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to > > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. > > > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I > > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt > > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: > > > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what > > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > > > Visit my blog: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > > ndefur%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > > le%40frontier.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > > 40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso > > n%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > > t104%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 > > 07%40comcast.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > > on.net > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > > com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:54:14 -0500 > From: "Steve Jacobson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > As a person involved some in technology, could you explain more about > Razor's Edge and which companies are using > it that you have encountered? If you look at the myriad of accessibility > issues, it is hard to know how to > prioritize them. Unfortunately, many issues do not fall cleanly under > existing laws. What I mean by cleanly is > that laws may apply in such a borderline fashion that getting a positive > decision is unlikely. I am > oversimplifying this some, but to a large degree there is no law > preventing companies from producing inaccessible > software. Where are lever has been is in affecting software by making it > illegal or at least harder to have > governmental entities buy it. In some cases we have been successful when > a private business had an inaccessible > web site but their web site was used to enhance the experience at a public > location. This whole area of > accessibility to websites and software on the job is not well defined > legally at all. I know that the > International Braille and Technology Center works with many companies all > the time and an attempt has been made to > publicize the efforts of companies who have made their software > accessible. There needs to be a ton of work done > on this yet and in some cases, there is not much that can be done legally. > If you have brought Razor's Edge to > the national Office and they have told you it isn't important enough to > work on, I would be very surprised. > However, there are a number of reasons why it might not be that easy to > correct very quickly including the good > old "reasonable effort" and "Undo Burden" language in many laws. > > Would you say more about this? > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > -----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > >Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > >Kaiti, > >The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions > too. > >Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > >I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > >too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on > >terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is > >kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; > get > >a job. > >Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you > can > >be financially independent through other means with out the job. > >What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances > who > >don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a > >full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is > doing > >nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > >raisers edge. > >The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps > >with no outside help. > >So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and > ACB > >is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > >values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things > >may change soon. > > >That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > >I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope > this > >does not happen again. > > >Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > >disability groups. > > >Ashley > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kaiti Shelton > >Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > >Hello all, > > >In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may > >call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > >with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > >blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > >working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > people, > >and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > >tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with > >the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > >relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from > the > >various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > >it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > >I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > I'm > >really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed > >out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, > it's > >okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > >(yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > >aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, > but > >a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > >reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > >I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian > >even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > >realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > the > >views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > >just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was > not > >under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > >remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > >the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > >part of convention? > >What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > hate > >for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > >because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to > pretend > >that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve > the > >right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > circumstances > >doesn't seem right. > >Sorry for the rant. > > >On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > >> happen again. > >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > >> be the darling of > >> > >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > >> chapters and > >> > >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > >> examples of backing the wrong person. > >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew > >> up in > >> > >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling > >> of the federation. Have a blessed day. > >> Best Wishes > >> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > >> withmultipledisabilities? > >> > >> > >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But > >>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of > >>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this > >>> is not occurring. > >>> > >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > >>> diverse. I also > >>> > >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > >>> they have > >>> > >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came > >>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and > >>> transgendered people. > >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > >>> announcement and > >>> > >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for > >>> social purposes. > >>> > >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > >>> changes > >>> > >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > >>> what happens. > >>> Have a blessed day. > >>> Best Wishes > >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >>> multipledisabilities? > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number > >>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, > >>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true > >>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities > >>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >>> help them with. > >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind > >>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss > >>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been > >>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental > >>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and > >>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such > >>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or > >>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them > >>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have > >>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the > >>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and > >>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if > >>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes > >>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how > >>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there > >>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from > >>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are > >>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>>> Joe and others, > >>>> > >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > >>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't > >>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We > >>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in > >>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do > >>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this > >>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then > >>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear > >>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. > >>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I > >>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt > >>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems > >>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for > >>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation > >>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I > >>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make > >>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > >>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > >>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > >>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a > >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of > >>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A > >>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the > >>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving > >>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered > >>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a > >>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably > >>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one > >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor > >>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major > >>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this > >>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even > >>>> now if we hadn't tried it. > >>>> > >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > >>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > >>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much > >>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you > >>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some > >>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we > >>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of > >>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader > >>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial > >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of > >>>> having > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> educate every person who writes > >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > >>>> for us > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we > >>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are > >>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that > >>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the > >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, > >>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we > >>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to > >>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the > >>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be > >>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as > >>>> individuals and as an organization. > >>>> > >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > >>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as > >>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND > >>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. > >>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you > >>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not > >>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through > >>>> training. > >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it > >>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even > >>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic > >>>> education. > >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > >>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > >>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > >>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>>> > >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > >>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > >>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > >>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > >>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > >>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > >>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > >>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > >>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. > >>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>> > >>>> Steve Jacobson > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Arielle, > >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>>> > >>>>>Joe, > >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >>>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I > >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the > >>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I > >>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I > >>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB > >>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of > >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics > >>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame > >>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to > >>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the > >>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. > >>>> > >>>>>Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Joe, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also > >>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a > >>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and > >>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is > >>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. > >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut > >>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable > >>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > >>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. > >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > >>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is > >>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped > >>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > >>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of > >>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance > >>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > >>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind > >>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I > >>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so > >>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative > >>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and > >>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this > is > >something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arielle > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >>>>>>> Hello all. > >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my > >>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one > >>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB > >>>>>>> does. > >>>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>>> mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have > >>>>>>> a mentoor. > >>>>>>> RJ > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Joe" > >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad > >>>>>>>> to be in the company > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited > >>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up > >>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > >>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's > >>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington > >>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. > >>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I > >>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in > >>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I > >>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting > >>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to > >>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder > >>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the > >>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the > >>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. > >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>>>>>>> professionals. > >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, > >>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or > >>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's > >>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste > >>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should > >>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women > >>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, > >>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>>>>>>> sustaining. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>>>>>>> don't want > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college > >>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to > >>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's > >>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and > >>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and > >>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > >>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what > >>>>>>>> you always had > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave > >>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer > >>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective > >>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. > >>>>>>>> Whether > >>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >>>>>>>> want it to exist. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the > >>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > >>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do > >>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial > >>>>>>>> management to you. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new > >>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if > >>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. > >>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut > >>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you > >>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there > >>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here > >>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some > >>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be > >>>>>>>> this: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: > >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks > >>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > >>>>>>> le%40frontier.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >>>>>>> mail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 > >>>>>> 0gmail.com > >>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 > >>>>>0visi.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai > >>>> l.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. > >> com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> 40gmail.com > >> > > > >-- > >Kaiti > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > >net > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >.com > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 90, Issue 5 > ************************************* > From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 22:45:36 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:45:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism References: Message-ID: <3A57E6874C8F44CF8D04E4CD20992A5E@HP30910210001> I like the dual aproach as well. I have stated this before, and I don't have a concrete answer. I think that we need to also continue to focus on the employment of blind people more than we have done. I was very glad that the job fair was occurring at convention again, and that there was a job fair at washington seminar. In my opinion, this is a more balanced aproach to assisting blind people in becoming successful. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 3:12 PM Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual approach of empowering blind people while also making environments more hospitable for us. Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out to other blind people for help. Arielle On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: > The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. > Great point Ashley. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Kaiti, > The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions > too. > > Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on > terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is > kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; > get > a job. > Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you > can > be financially independent through other means with out the job. > What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances > who > don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a > full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is > doing > nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > raisers edge. > The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps > with no outside help. > So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and > ACB > is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things > may change soon. > > That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope > this > does not happen again. > > Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > disability groups. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may > call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > people, > and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with > the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from > the > various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > I'm > really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed > out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, > it's > okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, > but > a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian > even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > the > views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was > not > under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > hate > for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to > pretend > that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve > the > right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > circumstances > doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> happen again. >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >> be the darling of >> >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> chapters and >> >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> examples of backing the wrong person. >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >> up in >> >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>> is not occurring. >>> >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>> diverse. I also >>> >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>> they have >>> >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>> transgendered people. >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>> announcement and >>> >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>> social purposes. >>> >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> changes >>> >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>> what happens. >>> Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> multipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>> help them with. >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Joe and others, >>>> >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>> >>>> to >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>> >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>> having >>>> >>>> to >>>> educate every person who writes >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>> for us >>>> >>>> to >>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>> >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>> training. >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>> education. >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>> >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> >>>>>Arielle, >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>> >>>>>Joe, >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>> >>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >>>>>> is > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>> does. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>0visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Apr 2 23:31:15 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 18:31:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: IEEE PES Scholarship Plus Initiative - April 2014 Message-ID: > >From: IEEE PES Scholarship Plus Initiative >[mailto:pes-info-scholarship=ieee.org at mail51.atl71.mcdlv.net] >On Behalf Of IEEE PES Scholarship Plus Initiative >Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:04 AM >To: Linson,Trudy W (BPA) - NSSS-TPP-2 >Subject: IEEE PES Scholarship Plus Initiative - April 2014 > >IEEE PES Scholarship Plus Initiative - April 2014 Update >Email not displaying correctly? >View >it in your browser. > >[] > >April 2014 > >The IEEE PES Scholarship Plus Initiative >provides multi-year scholarships and career >experience opportunities to qualifying U.S. & >Canadian electrical engineering undergraduate >students. As long as the scholar continues to >meet renewal standards, he or she will receive >up to three years of funding — US$2,000 the >first year, $2,000 the second year and $3,000 >the third year — interspersed with up to two >years of valuable, hands-on career experience. > >PES Scholarship Plus in the News > * > Applications > being accepted - The deadline to submit an application is June 30, 2014 >Upcoming Events > >International Conference of Doble Clients - We >are very happy to have been invited back to >attend the >International >Conference of Doble Clients which will be held >in Boston, MA (6 - 11 April). If you are >attending this exciting event, please stop by >the PES Scholarship Plus exhibit to learn more about the program. > >IEEE PES Transmission & Distribution Conference >& Exposition - We will be Chicago attending the >2014 IEEE >PES >Transmission & Distribution Conference and >Exposition. Come visit our booth (L12) near the >Recharge Zone 2. Additionally, we have >scheduled a PES Scholarship Plus Initiative >Recognition Luncheon on Tuesday, 15 April. >During this luncheon you will hear the latest >news on the program and have an opportunity to >meet some PES Scholars & Donors. This is a free >event and attendance is limited. If you are >available to attend, please RSVP as soon as >possible >http://ieee.fluidsurveys.com/s/pes-td-luncheon/. > > >Career Experience/Internships >Getting students to participate in career >experience opportunities is fundamental to the >success of the Initiative. The objective of the >career experience program is to expand the >number of available career experience >opportunities for students, particularly by >companies that may not have been offering them >in the past, to provide an efficient way for >companies to supplement their own career >experience programs, and to encourage companies >to increase their efforts to build the pipeline >of students interested in power engineering careers. > >We are happy to report that PES Scholars are >getting the opportunity to contribute to the >Power Industry by getting a full time position >and/or internship. 75% (60 of 81) of the PES >Scholars who have graduated or are graduating in >May have indicated that they have full time job >or are planning on going to graduate >school. 73% (78 of 107) of the PES Scholars who >are continuing their education have secured an >internship at company or a research opportunity at a university. > >We still have students who are looking for full >time and internship opportunities. If your >organization has openings, please visit >PES >Careers or send us >an >email. PES Careers is uniquely designed to help >students find a power engineering job after >graduation (or career experiences while a >student), and to help employers efficiently find >the best candidates for those positions. IEEE >PES offers PES Careers without charge as a >service to students and their future employers, >and to help address emerging engineering workforce challenges. > >PES Scholar Profile (in their own words) - Logan Brecklin > >Logan was selected as the 2013 IEEE PES Scholar >- >John >W. Estey Outstanding Scholar for Region 4 (Mid-West Region). >[] > > >My name is Logan Brecklin and a senior >Electrical Engineering major at the University >of Wisconsin-Platteville. I will graduate in May >2014 with emphases in Power and Energy as well >as Controls, and will be working as an Associate >System Protection Engineer with the American >Transmission Company (ATC) in De Pere, WI. Aside >from electrical engineering, my interests >include: remaining active in clubs, such as when >I was the 2013 President for the IEEE HKN >chapter at UW-Platteville; playing intramurals; >staying active by running marathons as well as >jogging or weight lifting every day; and hanging >out with friends, and visiting famous, local landmarks. > >My career goals consist of continuously learn >about every aspect of power engineering while >working in my Associate System Protection >Engineer position and progress towards roles of >leadership within the utility sector. After a >few years of experience in industry, I plan on >obtaining my Professional Engineering (PE) >Certification and also obtaining an MBA while working full-time. > >Looking back on my childhood, I now see that it >was inevitable that I would become an engineer. >As a toddler, I didn't stop at assembling forts >in my rooms or making structures out of >“Legos”. I searched endlessly around my >house to find miscellaneous materials for >different mini-projects. I have one vivid memory >of collecting “Jenga” blocks, marbles, >cardboard paper, and other supplies to construct >a small-scale model of a bowling lane. I placed >it on an inclined surface, so that when I >flicked the marble at my make-shift pins, it >would hit the pins, but then be funneled to the ball-return lane. > >As time has passed, my interest in constructing >things has only increased, with my extensive >ideas becoming even more developed. By growing >up with a father and brother as engineers, my >fascinations were further encouraged. > >I specifically chose the power engineering field >because of advice from my parents, relatives, >and - through an extended connection - a >UW-Platteville professor only known as "Dave" >(who I later found was Dr. David Drury, PE, a >recently retired electrical engineering >profession I had the honor to learn from). I had >always liked seeing the physical make-up of >things, such as how a bridge structure works, >but was influenced into going into electrical >engineering because of my good math skills. > >I love electrical engineering because performing >circuit analysis was like a puzzle to me, and >the problems just became more complex and >challenging as I progressed through the >curriculum. Power engineering specifically >interested me because I finally saw the >real-life applications of circuits and power >systems in our electrical grid. To further >improve our power system is a goal that >enthralls me to learn everything about the >utility industry, such as how we can work across >companies to improve power quality, reduce >emissions, optimize generating schedules, and >build a more sustainable future for generations to come. > >I admire many of my professors and peers that I >have had the honor to work alongside during my >career at UW-Platteville, but I would have to >say I admire my dad the most. My father, Charles >Brecklin, wholly embodies every value and trait >that I desire to have in myself. Despite the >difficulties that have arisen in his life, he >used hard work in place of excuses and >self-motivation in place of dependence. He took >it upon himself to further his and his >family’s situation, and I am forever indebted >to him for that. He designed and helped >construct three separate houses in his lifetime, >with my parents’ latest home being almost >entirely built from his calloused hands – all >while working a full-time position! He was my >biggest influence in choosing power engineering >as my area of study, and I will continuously ask >for his wisdom for decades to come. > >The most important thing I have learned in >school is that you can strive for perfection, >but nobody can ever be perfect! Every circuit >component has a tolerance, every situation has >extraneous circumstances, every group encounters >challenges, and every person makes mistakes. But >it’s admitting your mistakes and accepting >these challenges that make you a stronger and better person. > >My advice to students entering college is that >college is completely different from high school >and you must realize that. College provides much >less structure than the high school atmosphere, >so you must be very self-motivated and organized >to remain afloat in college. That being said, >you’ll encounter many new experiences that >you’ll cherish for the rest of your life. >Although you should take your education very >seriously, never lose sight of the big picture >and the relationships that you form. It’s >vital to maintain a balanced lifestyle and to not over-stress yourself. > >I had the honor to work for the American >Transmission Company as an intern for three >summers and three winter break periods. During >my time at ATC, I worked in the Project >Engineering department and with the System >Protection department. While in my intern role, >I found that all of the knowledge I learned at >UW-Platteville was well-worth it and provided a >strong base for me to become a successful >engineer in industry. No matter which department >I was with at the time, I was able to pull from >all facets of my electrical engineering >knowledge to understand and complete the >projects assigned to me. The awesome mentors and >full-time employees I was able to work with >during my internships also provided practical >knowledge that can’t be taught in an academic >atmosphere. I was able to learn about myself, my >interests, and my true passion(s) in power >engineering. With all of these experiences, I >had no reservations in pursuing a system >protection engineering position; the profession >provides many challenges and will have me >learning new information for years to come. > >Program Expansion >The IEEE PES Governing Board has made a >commitment to expand this initiative to other >parts of the world. If you have comments or >would like to be involved in this process please >send us an email. > >Thank you for your Support >We are very pleased to announce that ShivKrupa, >Black & Veatch, PLH Group and V&R have recently >joined our distinguished list of company >supporters. We are also proud to announce that >American Transmission Company and Ulteig have >recommitted their support for the program in 2014! > >You are encouraged to join us by giving back to >the industry and "pay it forward" by donating to >the Initiative. Your donation will educate and >inspire the next generation of power and energy >engineers. As the only program of this magnitude >in the world, we hope that you will find this a >worthy initiative to attach your name to. > >Should you be a previous donor, please consider >making an additional gift to the Initiative. >Your continued support is truly >appreciated! The Initiative needs support from >individuals like you by ‘giving back’ to >IEEE, and from the industry that ultimately >benefits from gaining new engineers. Thank you >for your anticipated support of the Initiative! > >Donate to the IEEE PES Scholarship Plus >Initiative by visiting our >PES >Scholarship Plus Initiative website. > >Individuals and companies in Canada can provide >support for the program through the IEEE PES >Canadian Scholarship Fund which is managed by >the IEEE Canadian Foundation (ICF). The ICF, is >registered in Canada as a charitable >organization associated with IEEE Canada, awards >special grants to new and innovative projects >within Canada that seek to apply technology for >the benefit of humanity. For additional >information and how to donate in Canada visit >the >IEEE >Canadian Foundation Web site. > >[] > > >LEARN - >www.ee-scholarship.org >LIKE - >www.facebook.com/ieeepes.scholarship.plus >DONATE - >www.ee-scholarship.org/sponsorship/donate-now/ >VIEW - >https://ieeetv.ieee.org/player/html/viewer?dl=#pes-scholarship-plus-building-the-power-workforce > >[] > >follow >on Twitter | friend on Facebook | >forward >to a friend >Copyright © 2014 IEEE Power & Energy Society, All rights reserved. >Recipients of this message are individuals who >have supported or expressed an interest in >supporting or being informed about the IEEE PES Scholarship Plus Initiative. >Our mailing address is: >IEEE Power & Energy Society >445 Hoes Lane >Piscataway, NJ 08854 > >Add >us to your address book > >unsubscribe >from this list | >update >subscription preferences From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 23:38:07 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 19:38:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Printer and a Dux Berry Software Message-ID: Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I would like to have a Braille printer and a Dux Berry Software that comes with it at home. I just wanted to ask you, do you know where I can get one in order for me to use it so that I could print my school materials and my other personal materials as well? And if you know, what kind of Braille Printer do you recommend me to have? I’m just wondering, since my DSS office takes a long time to give me my Braille materials for my classes, and Just to let you know, I’m actually a visual learner when it comes to study! You probably think I’m cracy, but that is the way I study and learn school assignments! In fact, In fact, for me listening to an screen reader, or audio is not just enough for my learning, I actually like to follow along while listening to audio. And I actually have JAWS and I use it while reading my assignments in Braille. I’m not saying that audio and listening to a screen reader is bad; They are very helpful. I’m just saying that is not sufficient to succeed in higher education. And as you all know, I’m actually from peru, and my first language is not English, and that is why I use Braille in order to read my assignments like my sighted classmates. Maybe some of you will not agree with me, but I think that all visually impaired student and individual should learn how to read and write Braille. Just to let you know, Braille was the first method I learned how to use when I became blind 6 years ago, before even I learn how to use a computer and technology! In fact, many people told me about the Juliet or the Romeo Braille embossers, but I really don’t know if they are the right ones! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From freethaught at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 23:46:52 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 19:46:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27E6E8FD-D6B1-4C61-9917-2324C76D7E8D@gmail.com> Hi all, It's hard talking about many things I see happening in the Nfb without turning into somewhat of a griping session. I have come a little bit late to this thread, as sometimes happens. This is one example of what has been already said. Life goes on with, or without the Nfb. Life goes on whether or not I read or respond to messages from this list. I am happy to be here, reading, and responding though. The Youth Slam was but one example of how the Nfb does things too big. We held three of those events. The membership was responsible for recruiting students, mentoring them, sometimes taking care of their physical, and emotional needs. The first use slam was a realization of one of Betsi Zabarowski's dreams. She said as much in presentations to the group. We had over 250 blind students and mentors at the event. I don't care how you slice it, blindness does add certain challenges to run an event that large. I got tired and stressed as a mentor in the Youth Slam. We were out of the college dorms by 7 A.M. and some times back at 10:00 P.M. I got no relief from people who were actually recruited, and served in the event as "Quote "relief Mentors," unquote. It was go, go, go for several days. I see the Youth Slam as a reflection of the organization itself. It is a gathering of mostly NFB leaders, and dedicated members mentoring bright, and excited teens. I feel mentors were treated more or less as hands on deck. We were there to do the dirty work of running the program, and the structure of hierarchy did very much look like a top down approach. The slam was in many ways a great event, but it was all a thankless job. I left exhausted, and vowing not to return at a future one, should they hold one. I found myself volunteering to the 2011 Youth Slam, the last one held so far. Not much changed since four years before. I saw, and heard of enough cases where mentors were saked to quote, "act as mentors," unquote. this was to mean they were to act in an NFB way. Show independence at any cost. Here's another example of what I said on list once before: We preach much, but some times don't follow our own message. Explicit displays of public independence sounds a lot like rebellious independence to me. Consider the supposed scenario of a mentor who helps her student, her mentee,, to a table, and assists in some way with getting that student's tray safely and quickly to the table. Imagine that a person on the paid NFB Youth Slam staff sees this happen. the staff person in this scenario would most likely reprimand the mentor for taking independence out of the hands of the student. the mentor would have been lectured, and made to feel as if she had to make every single interaction with student to be a teaching moment. If the mentor did as expected, and teach the student to carry her tray while using the cane, time would run out, and the student, mentor, and pod, small group of four slam participants, would still be reprimanded. this time the crime would have been the slow progress through the lunch. It was dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. this story is one I made up. It is similar to the type of pressure we all faced. It may have happened, and more than once. The point I am making is that behind this story is a philosophy of militancy we are accused of displaying in the NFB. We may want to be tolerant. We may even be inclusive, but there are clear instances when people are encouraged to stay quiet, especially if one is not to quote "support the programs and policies of the Federation." Unquote. I will most likely chime in on this thread again. I don't want to run on from topic to topic, so see you on another post. Antonio From freethaught at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 23:51:57 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 19:51:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A6AD0A6-C824-446C-A9B6-555651A514FD@gmail.com> David, I've heard from people studying sociology that people often lose themselves, and their identity by belonging to an organization. It is much easier for a large force, like the NFB and all its structures, to influence the direction of policy than an individual to change the organization by acquiring political power. One will gain political power in an organization in part by aligning himself with how the organization does things. If I don't agree, I am less likely to rise through the ranks. Antonio On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:20 PM, David Andrews wrote: > The other side of this argument is that unless you get involved and get political power yourself, then things won't change. The NFB has its strengths, and its weaknesses, and depending on the situation they are often the same thing. > > Dave > > At 01:57 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote: >> Arielle, >> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >> Joe, >> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> > >> > Hi Joe, >> > >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >> > drawings and the like. >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> > sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >> > could be a loss of programs and resources. >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >> > this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >> > >> > Arielle >> > >> >> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >> >> Hello all. >> >> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >> >> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >> >> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: RJ Sandefur >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> >> list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >> >> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >> >> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Joe" >> >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >> >> >> >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >> >>> was >> >>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >> >>> >> >>> of >> >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >> >>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >> >>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >> >>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >> >>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >> >>> leadership >> >>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >> >>> spirit, >> >>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >> >>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >>> >> >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >> >>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >> >>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >> >>> that >> >>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >> >>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >> >>> it >> >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >> >>> of >> >>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >> >>> more >> >>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >> >>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >> >>> >> >>> I >> >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> >>> fundraising campaigns. >> >>> >> >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >> >>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> >>> efforts >> >>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >> >>> scope. >> >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >> >>> the >> >>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >> >>> and >> >>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >> >>> resources >> >>> we've already had. >> >>> >> >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> >>> professionals. >> >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >> >>> be >> >>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >> >>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >> >>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >> >>> when >> >>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >> >>> >> >>> a >> >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >> >>> to >> >>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >> >>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >> >>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >> >>> to >> >>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >> >>> incapable of sustaining. >> >>> >> >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >> >>> >> >>> it >> >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >> >>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >> >>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >> >>> guide >> >>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >> >>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >> >>> own >> >>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >> >>> you >> >>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >>> >> >>> to >> >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >> >>> will >> >>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >> >>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >> >>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >> >>> or >> >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >> >>> exist. >> >>> >> >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >> >>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >> >>> happier, >> >>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >> >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> >>> lesson >> >>> in financial management to you. >> >>> >> >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >> >>> never >> >>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >> >>> provide >> >>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >> >>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >> >>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >> >>> couldn't >> >>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >> >>> at >> >>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >> >>> strength. >> >>> >> >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >> >>> the >> >>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >> >>> the >> >>> original question, my answer would be this: >> >>> >> >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >> >>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >> >>> and >> >>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >>> >> >>> Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 00:04:54 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 20:04:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> Message-ID: Peter, I have not read much about the NFB and ACB rivalry in this thread until you brought it up. Your message below tells stories I've seen you post on otter occasions. These stories did not happen last year, or two years ago, if only memory serves me right. I just attended my first ACB state convention this weekend, and I found literally no mention of the NFB. Little, zero, zilch. I was one of the only people who alluded to it because I knew others knew of my involvement in the NFB in Massachusetts. I expressed my delight to be welcomed at the BSCB convention. Granted it was not the most exciting of events, but again, the Rhode Island state convention is not all that dynamic either. I haven't attended the past couple of them, so one could argue I can't say much since I haven't been there. I was asked by at least two of my NFB friends why in the world I would attend an ACB convention. Maybe these friends were surprised that I would branch out. They may have previously seen me as close-minded, so attending the ACB event would be out of character. Maybe, and I would say, likely, they saw no reason, or benefit to going to the conference. Let me remind you and others that ACB conferences and events is where you'll find half of blind consumers. What favor will I do myself, and each organization, by limiting myself from benefiting from what good each has to offer. what a pity also to each organization not to tap into the talents and contribution you and I have to offer. Antonio On Mar 30, 2014, at 4:47 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > > Good afternoon everyone, > > I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who runs from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of serving in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. People are only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't find other ways to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than becoming or remaining lion chasers. > > The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be NFB members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get over it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, becoming a better traveler will help you become more independent and create new career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of help regardless of whose camp they come from. > > As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like to bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive proposition. > > On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair for those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. Some of us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt to harm their display or interfear with their activities in any way. They did not return the favor. One year several of their members tried to knock over our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president at the time should have had the backbone to notify show officials and have them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of these ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new company we may be interested in learning about. Since we did not have a laptop with an Internet connection present to verify his story or not we were unable to do anything about it. Had we searched for the name of his company and found no reference to it online it's possible we could have had him kicked out for promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we have no patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to promote a fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. The individual I referred to in this paragraph has served as the Alamo Council of the Blind's President. > > On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to ride in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. Yes I know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind why we've taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best summarized in a paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin Tom Conners: > "That there may never elsewhere be, > Another Philadelphia tragedy, > Another philadelphia tragety." > > The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals were involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the blind helped lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance against those who have nothing better to do than to run away from battles, sit on fences, etc there has never been another incident of that kind involving us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took action prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. > > Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this is America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as they see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of others?They attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin a similar program and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The Braille Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. > > One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. Again this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone wishes to be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need they need to meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host agency decides that immersion training is to be used in the operation of a particular program or service anyone wishing to partner with this agency will need to endorse immersion training or they will not be considered as a venture partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in the operation of a program or service offered by a blindness agency that chooses to use immersion training they'll need to over hall their philosophy and adopt immersion training as a viable way to operate a program. If they're unwilling to do that they will be filtered and would do well not to complain that they were left out of consideration and would do well to refrain from trying to undermind the activities of such an agency because they were unwilling to adapt their approach and philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs of the blind. Again we have no patience with losers according to our standards! > > As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become yet we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll land that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge blind individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop multiple income channels should something happen to your primary income source and so you will have the funds to support causes such as the activities of the NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a blind child in our area to encourage her to do this so she will be bettter able to meet her blind child's needs as she progresses through school and college and to have financial resources that will last her for her entire life instead of just 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high unemployment rate we face. > > And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a few. The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children to develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school district is unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can hire someone to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for another blind individual. If necessary they could home-school their blind child and give him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public schools. Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person to attend one of our centers since we urged them and their families to create ,multiple income streams they could pay for it themselves and to Hell with the rehab system. The more financial resources you have at your disposal that you can control the better you can provide for your blind child or fund the training you yourself wish to obtain. > > We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're heeding the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in one basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y for short understand the value of this advice and are creating multiple income streams for themselves should something happen to them or their career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need to become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons and their families to do likewise. > > > Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In the late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in a well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level of success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of the products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet portals in which one can transact business, yet this individual and his wife built an empire using this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with the company in question to insure that this is so and they have greatly appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would think other blind individuals would have followed his lead in large numbers given the technology and services now available to those persuing careers in the direct selling industry. We find this state of affairs sad and shameful! This is something that can change in the years ahead. It's not too late. Anyone wanting more information about such opportunities is strongly advised to seek it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, false, and misleading. We're neither talking about your grandmother's business opportunity or NFB. > > > > If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to change the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to career options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last them a lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row when those years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice that will allow its members and others to have the resources needed to support its programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a deasent quality of life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. > > Peter Donahue > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 00:23:13 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 20:23:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <007201cf4c83$b914f960$2b3eec20$@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> <007201cf4c83$b914f960$2b3eec20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4702ECD7-1049-43D0-A55B-2658A6071BC9@gmail.com> Joe, Thank you for stepping out there and sharing frank observations of our leaders, some who are certainly on this list, and listening. I welcome your seat at the preverbal NABS-l table. I have an enormous respect for some of those folks. I interact with a handful of them, and I hold them in high regard. I'll leave them nameless for now, but it's only people with a deep sense of humanity who will sit with you, and hold a genuine conversation about our disagreement. Only a true diplomat, in the human sense, will do that. Only the best and brightest will welcome a strong point of view that could shape policy at a national level. These folks I allude to are some of the kindest, brightest, most interesting and intelligent people I've found. They realize who they are if they're reading this because they know me personally. I will not embarase them or myself by naming names, bt I know the NFB is better because you are in it. Some people are true mentors, and you don't have to kiss up to them at some public presentation or another to make the point they are important to you, and to the organization. thank you all. Joe, you too are part of that group, and I name you since you have been so open to give an accurate purtrayal of those you mentioned. I've disagreed with you politically, and I've enjoyed it. By the way, you owe me a pitcher of Sprite. Smiles. I should explain for those who were not here in 2008. Joe and I help a public bet on the list. I put my money behind Obama winning the 2008 elections. Joe bet against me, and the winner would be presented with a pitcher of beer, sprite in my case, by the one who got his predictions wrong. I'll see you at that joint convention you talked about Joe. That will be a perfect time to pay up, and drink to frank, and honest debates. Antonio On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:51 PM, Joe wrote: > Dave, > > That was a good point, and very true. Put your money where your mouth is and > whatnot. The only thing I would add is to find the role that's right for > you. Not everyone has to be president of this or board member of that. I, > for example, am too politically incorrect to be anyone's leader. I'm a > better force behind the throne, assuming I belong in leadership at all, but > it took me leaving the Federation to grow up and realize that. I've argued > many times that our leaders should be allowed to take a sabbatical to get > reacquainted with the reality they seek to improve, otherwise their efforts > only thrive in a vacuum. > > Beth, > > Angelina makes a good point that society as a whole is still trying to wrap > its mind around mental health. You would think blind people would be more > sensitive, but then, we are blind, not perfect, and every bit as judgmental > as the rest of the general public. Perhaps we would be well served to > address the topic at local chapters or state conventions, maybe establish > partnerships with organizations with expertise in that field in an effort to > normalize what seems abnormal to the uninformed bystander. I think though > the organization has always been careful about not straying too far from its > own expertise, which is blindness. There are a myriad of conditions and > circumstances that affect the membership beyond that, but as Pete pointed > out, we can't be all things to all people at all times. Mind you, that is no > excuse for us not to be more welcoming of all people. Common courtesy has > never gone out of style, and I would hope the majority of members can see > past these shallow factors. > > As to a spot in the elite circle, and this point is for Juanita as well, I > suspect it's not everything it's cracked up to be. Remember the higher you > rise, the harder you fall. I certainly never saw that whole bit with Peggy > Elliott coming. Some of the best work you'll ever carry out will happen at > the local level, where you have the most access to real people who really > need your help. > > Jamie, > > We're on the same boat. I came into the fold late in 2001. Over the next > several years I felt a noticeable change that felt nothing like the raw > grassroots power I initially encountered. Still, change is possible. > > Arielle, > > Children and youth programs are vitally important. There is no greater > priority than ensuring the future success of those coming up behind us, but > the NFB is no redheaded stepchild. According to public records, the NFB has > net assets of $26 million. My point is, I think the National Office could > step up its efforts to rely more on strategic partners and less on the > membership to generate the funds needed to keep those programs alive. Up to > a point we have to realize you can't squeeze water from a stone, and while I > am drawing a very simplistic picture of development and programming for the > sake of this discussion, if we must raise more money, we have got to find a > less pervasive means of communicating that to the membership that doesn't > include a constant parade of opportunities you can increase your donation, > sign up new donors, and win a prize! There is only so much public appeal > capital we have to spend. > > To my knowledge, no one has been blatantly barred from joining the NFB. Yet, > sometimes actions speak louder than words. Some people are treated in a > condescending fashion for not using the longer white canes. Other people are > ostracized for not having attended a center or, worse, for going to the > wrong one. Sadly, some of our older generation still look down on those > members who choose to get a guide dog. Now, to a degree people need to > toughen up. There are bad apples in any organization, but it took more than > several occurrences for me to notice a trend and not just a few isolated > incidents. At some point we need to find a balance. > > And that brings me to perhaps the most important point that's come from this > thread. > > Michael and Pete, > > I criticize the NFB because I want it to succeed. The mature among you will > understand where I'm coming from. The two of you, however, are going about > it the wrong way. > > In short, knock it off. ACB versus NFB is a stale argument. No one in our > generation cares half as much about the division as the old curmudgeons in > both organizations with nothing better to do. I'm hopeful that in our > lifetime we will see at least one joint convention where we can test how > much stronger we are as a united front on a few well-chosen issues. Anyone > who believes the other camp is the real enemy ought to be booted from > office, because they are a detriment to the collective good. > > Michael, I especially expect better of you as an ambassador to the ACB on an > NFB forum. I don't think Kim Charlson would approve of the way you are > portraying your group. Sometimes you need to be the more gallant gentleman. > Don't let me down. > > Now, hopefully, a few of you will rise to your potential as leaders, gather > what you're learning from this iscussion, and act on it as you assume office > in the various chapters, affiliates and divisions. My homework to you this > coming convention, should you care about anything a black sheep asks you to > do, is to look up some people who are the real deal. This is not a > definitive list. I won't pretend to have met all the excellent people in > leadership, and some of the best leaders you'll find in the most remote > chapters and not at the dais. The most lovable chapter president I ever met > was Andy Virden in Minnesota, may he rest in peace. Still, some of the best > mentor figures I had the privilege of meeting that are well-known to you and > accessible were Joy and Allen Harris, Ron Gardner, James Gashel, Joanne > Wilson, Gary Wunder, Pam Allen, and Curtis Chong. I've never met Steve > Jacobs and David Andrews, though their guidance is generally in the right > place. David gets on my nerves every now and then, but that's a good sign > he's probably good people. And, believe it or not, Dr. Maurer is not half > bad when he's not being an ass about how much smarter he is than the rest of > us. One on one he can be a good guy to bounce ideas and set you straight > when it's warranted. Are they always right? No. In fact I think sometimes > they ought to be separated to generate better ideas. Will they always have > the best advice? No, but remember my suggestion about dismissing the counsel > that does not contribute to your upward mobility. On the whole, this is just > a starting list of people you must meet, shake hands with, and milk them for > all the wisdom they're worth. Our collective success depends on it. We're on > the edge of transitioning to a new era, and I have high hopes for those of > you taking the helm. Whatever your definition of the successful blind > person, we need lots more of them. > > Me, I think I'll start my own organization. LOL > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > The other side of this argument is that unless you get involved and get > political power yourself, then things won't change. The NFB has its > strengths, and its weaknesses, and depending on the situation they are often > the same thing. > > Dave > > At 01:57 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote: >> Arielle, >> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >> Joe, >> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >> my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >> organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >> organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high >> school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective >> is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see >> past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues >> of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy >> to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the >> line and pander to those with political power are treated with >> hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our >> local chapters. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival >>> with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of >>> banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken >>> up with prize drawings and the like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person >>> and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt >>> completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would >>> encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try >>> again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find >>> acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be > sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>> Hello all. >>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>> Thanks. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>> mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>> mentoor. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joe" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>> to be in the company >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent >>>>> issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, >>>>> featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >>>>> so-called >> friends from whom >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>> >>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>>> field, also national in scope. >>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>> >>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>> professionals. >>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>> sustaining. >>>>> >>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>> don't want >>>>> >>>>> it >>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>>> banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about >>>>> the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>>> Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks >>>>> around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. >>>>> >>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management >>>>> to you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >>>>> of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >>>>> taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like >>>>> the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe >>>>> it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it >>>>> is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>>> strength. >>>>> >>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>> >>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>> >>>>> Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 00:27:19 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 20:27:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Printer and a Dux Berry Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Since embossers and Duxbury, like other blindness technology, are costly, you might check with your rehab agency about funding that purchase. I would recommend the Romeo embossers from Enabling Technologies. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 2, 2014, at 7:38 PM, wrote: > > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I would like to have a Braille printer and a Dux Berry Software that comes with it at home. I just wanted to ask you, do you know where I can get one in order for me to use it so that I could print my school materials and my other personal materials as well? And if you know, what kind of Braille Printer do you recommend me to have? I’m just wondering, since my DSS office takes a long time to give me my Braille materials for my classes, and Just to let you know, I’m actually a visual learner when it comes to study! You probably think I’m cracy, but that is the way I study and learn school assignments! In fact, In fact, for me listening to an screen reader, or audio is not just enough for my learning, I actually like to follow along while listening to audio. And I actually have JAWS and I use it while reading my assignments in Braille. I’m not saying that audio and listening to a screen reader is bad; They are very helpful. I’m just saying that is not sufficient to succeed in higher education. And as you all know, I’m actually from peru, and my first language is not English, and that is why I use Braille in order to read my assignments like my sighted classmates. Maybe some of you will not agree with me, but I think that all visually impaired student and individual should learn how to read and write Braille. Just to let you know, Braille was the first method I learned how to use when I became blind 6 years ago, before even I learn how to use a computer and technology! In fact, many people told me about the Juliet or the Romeo Braille embossers, but I really don’t know if they are the right ones! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From matt.dierckens at me.com Thu Apr 3 00:31:01 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 20:31:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Printer and a Dux Berry Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B04FEA9-89D9-4B6E-88C8-ED4FFD0F93A2@me.com> Hi all. I believe I still have an old Romeo 25 embosser, the one with the serial and parallel ports on it and its in great condition. All you would have to do is get a USB to serial adapter from Amazon. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Since embossers and Duxbury, like other blindness technology, are costly, you might check with your rehab agency about funding that purchase. I would recommend the Romeo embossers from Enabling Technologies. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 7:38 PM, wrote: >> >> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I would like to have a Braille printer and a Dux Berry Software that comes with it at home. I just wanted to ask you, do you know where I can get one in order for me to use it so that I could print my school materials and my other personal materials as well? And if you know, what kind of Braille Printer do you recommend me to have? I’m just wondering, since my DSS office takes a long time to give me my Braille materials for my classes, and Just to let you know, I’m actually a visual learner when it comes to study! You probably think I’m cracy, but that is the way I study and learn school assignments! In fact, In fact, for me listening to an screen reader, or audio is not just enough for my learning, I actually like to follow along while listening to audio. And I actually have JAWS and I use it while reading my assignments in Braille. I’m not saying that audio and listening to a screen reader is bad; They are very helpful. I’m just saying that is not sufficient to succeed in higher education. And as you all know, I’m actually from peru, and my first language is not English, and that is why I use Braille in order to read my assignments like my sighted classmates. Maybe some of you will not agree with me, but I think that all visually impaired student and individual should learn how to read and write Braille. Just to let you know, Braille was the first method I learned how to use when I became blind 6 years ago, before even I learn how to use a computer and technology! In fact, many people told me about the Juliet or the Romeo Braille embossers, but I really don’t know if they are the right ones! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From dandrews at visi.com Thu Apr 3 00:37:50 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 19:37:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <004f01cf4ea9$bb7b1900$32714b00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, as Steve said, I am not sure what the NFB can do. The pressure on Black Baud, developer of Raiser's Edge needs to come from customers and prospective customers. We use it where I work, and I have tried pushing them a few times, but probably need to do it again. Parts are accessible, parts aren't. Parts could probably be scripted. Dave At 04:54 PM 4/2/2014, you wrote: >As a person involved some in technology, could you explain more >about Razor's Edge and which companies are using >it that you have encountered? If you look at the myriad of >accessibility issues, it is hard to know how to >prioritize them. Unfortunately, many issues do not fall cleanly >under existing laws. What I mean by cleanly is >that laws may apply in such a borderline fashion that getting a >positive decision is unlikely. I am >oversimplifying this some, but to a large degree there is no law >preventing companies from producing inaccessible >software. Where are lever has been is in affecting software by >making it illegal or at least harder to have >governmental entities buy it. In some cases we have been successful >when a private business had an inaccessible >web site but their web site was used to enhance the experience at a >public location. This whole area of >accessibility to websites and software on the job is not well >defined legally at all. I know that the >International Braille and Technology Center works with many >companies all the time and an attempt has been made to >publicize the efforts of companies who have made their software >accessible. There needs to be a ton of work done >on this yet and in some cases, there is not much that can be done >legally. If you have brought Razor's Edge to >the national Office and they have told you it isn't important enough >to work on, I would be very surprised. >However, there are a number of reasons why it might not be that easy >to correct very quickly including the good >old "reasonable effort" and "Undo Burden" language in many laws. > >Would you say more about this? > >Best regards, > >Steve Jacobson > >-----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > >Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > >Kaiti, > >The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. > >Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > >I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > >too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on > >terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is > >kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; get > >a job. > >Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you can > >be financially independent through other means with out the job. > >What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances who > >don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a > >full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing > >nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > >raisers edge. > >The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps > >with no outside help. > >So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB > >is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > >values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things > >may change soon. > > >That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > >I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this > >does not happen again. > > >Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > >disability groups. > > >Ashley > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kaiti Shelton > >Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > >Hello all, > > >In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may > >call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > >with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > >blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > >working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind people, > >and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > >tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with > >the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > >relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the > >various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > >it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > >I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but I'm > >really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed > >out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's > >okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > >(yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > >aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but > >a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > >reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > >I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as unitarian > >even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > >realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than the > >views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > >just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not > >under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > >remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > >the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > >part of convention? > >What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would hate > >for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > >because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend > >that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the > >right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or circumstances > >doesn't seem right. > >Sorry for the rant. > > >On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > >> happen again. > >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > >> be the darling of > >> > >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > >> chapters and > >> > >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > >> examples of backing the wrong person. > >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew > >> up in > >> > >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling > >> of the federation. Have a blessed day. > >> Best Wishes > >> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > >> withmultipledisabilities? > >> > >> > >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But > >>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of > >>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this > >>> is not occurring. > >>> > >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > >>> diverse. I also > >>> > >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > >>> they have > >>> > >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came > >>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and > >>> transgendered people. > >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > >>> announcement and > >>> > >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for > >>> social purposes. > >>> > >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > >>> changes > >>> > >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > >>> what happens. > >>> Have a blessed day. > >>> Best Wishes > >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >>> multipledisabilities? > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number > >>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, > >>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true > >>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities > >>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >>> help them with. > >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind > >>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss > >>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been > >>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental > >>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and > >>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such > >>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or > >>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them > >>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have > >>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the > >>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and > >>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if > >>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes > >>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how > >>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there > >>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from > >>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are > >>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>>> Joe and others, > >>>> > >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > >>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't > >>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We > >>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in > >>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do > >>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this > >>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then > >>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear > >>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. > >>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I > >>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt > >>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems > >>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for > >>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation > >>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I > >>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make > >>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > >>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > >>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > >>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a > >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of > >>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A > >>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the > >>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving > >>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered > >>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a > >>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably > >>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one > >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor > >>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major > >>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this > >>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even > >>>> now if we hadn't tried it. > >>>> > >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > >>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > >>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much > >>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you > >>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some > >>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we > >>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of > >>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader > >>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial > >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of > >>>> having > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> educate every person who writes > >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > >>>> for us > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we > >>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are > >>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that > >>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the > >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, > >>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we > >>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to > >>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the > >>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be > >>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as > >>>> individuals and as an organization. > >>>> > >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > >>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as > >>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND > >>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. > >>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you > >>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not > >>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through > >>>> training. > >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it > >>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even > >>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic > >>>> education. > >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > >>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > >>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > >>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>>> > >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > >>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > >>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > >>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > >>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > >>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > >>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > >>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > >>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. > >>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>> > >>>> Steve Jacobson > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Arielle, > >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>>> > >>>>>Joe, > >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >>>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I > >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the > >>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I > >>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I > >>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB > >>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of > >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics > >>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame > >>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to > >>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the > >>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. > >>>> > >>>>>Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Joe, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also > >>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a > >>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and > >>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is > >>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. > >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut > >>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable > >>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > >>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. > >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > >>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is > >>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped > >>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > >>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of > >>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance > >>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > >>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind > >>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I > >>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so > >>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative > >>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and > >>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is > >something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arielle > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >>>>>>> Hello all. > >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my > >>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one > >>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB > >>>>>>> does. > >>>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>>> mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have > >>>>>>> a mentoor. > >>>>>>> RJ > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Joe" > >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad > >>>>>>>> to be in the company > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited > >>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up > >>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > >>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's > >>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington > >>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. > >>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I > >>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in > >>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I > >>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting > >>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to > >>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder > >>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the > >>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the > >>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. > >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>>>>>>> professionals. > >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, > >>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or > >>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's > >>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste > >>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should > >>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women > >>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, > >>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>>>>>>> sustaining. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>>>>>>> don't want > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college > >>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to > >>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's > >>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and > >>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and > >>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > >>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what > >>>>>>>> you always had > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave > >>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer > >>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective > >>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. > >>>>>>>> Whether > >>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >>>>>>>> want it to exist. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the > >>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > >>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do > >>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial > >>>>>>>> management to you. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new > >>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if > >>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. > >>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut > >>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you > >>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there > >>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here > >>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some > >>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be > >>>>>>>> this: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: > >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks > >>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > >>>>>>> le%40frontier.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >>>>>>> mail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 > >>>>>> 0gmail.com > >>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 > >>>>>0visi.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai > >>>> l.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. > >> com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> 40gmail.com > >> > > > >-- > >Kaiti From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 00:58:23 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 20:58:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism In-Reply-To: <3A57E6874C8F44CF8D04E4CD20992A5E@HP30910210001> References: <3A57E6874C8F44CF8D04E4CD20992A5E@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <55588B3EE3B2496DB8B824E7D0B66100@OwnerPC> Melissa, I agree and I hope the shift is toward educating companies to make their software accessible and doing outreach so they know our capabilities. We need to focus more on employment, definitely. Due to the inaccessible software on pcs, electronics going touch screen and employer attitudes, we are not increasing our employment rate. It used to be you could be a receptionist or admin assistant or secretary as a blind person, good entry level job. This was in the 90s when we had pcs, but no digital touch screens. Okay, now, you have inaccessible equipment; scanners, copiers, and printers have screens one has to read to operate them beyond the basics. Even phones now have menus we cannot read. We can operate them and make calls, sure, but to go change settings, we cannot do that. Digital things has caused inaccessibility. And, jobs blind people used to have are disappearing. Such jobs include secretaries, switch board operators, and receptionists. Dark room technicians, piano tuners, and chair caning are disappearing too. I think without more of a move to have accessible software, we are going to be left behind. Every job ad tells me I need skills in database management. How can we compete with inaccessible databases? Not even MS Access is accessible! As to conservatism, indeed it’s a conservative group. I knew this the second meeting I went to 15 years back. Much of the self empowerment message spoken about at the virginia state convention is conservative. Yes, it is like yeah everyone can be successful in whatever they want. If you cannot get your dreams, you need to have more skills or more confidence; just as conservatives like rush Limboull say get up and out there, the NFB says if you cannot succeed its your fault. As Joe pointed out, I no longer can follow this. I have skills and a college degree, yet I cannot possibly meet all job qualifications because of visual barriers. Another example is many communications jobs I want require adobe creative suite use. I cannot use adobe photoshop or adobe end design. Never will happen, even if I improve my computer skills; some things just cannot be done with a screen reader. I could use other text based databases if they were accessible though; such as raisers edge, donor perfect, CRM, and SalesForce. I do like the can do attitude of NFB leaders, but out in the real world, having the blindness skills simply is no longer enough to suceed. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: melissa R Green Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:45 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism I like the dual aproach as well. I have stated this before, and I don't have a concrete answer. I think that we need to also continue to focus on the employment of blind people more than we have done. I was very glad that the job fair was occurring at convention again, and that there was a job fair at washington seminar. In my opinion, this is a more balanced aproach to assisting blind people in becoming successful. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 3:12 PM Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual approach of empowering blind people while also making environments more hospitable for us. Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out to other blind people for help. Arielle On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: > The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. > Great point Ashley. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Kaiti, > The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions > too. > > Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on > terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is > kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; > get > a job. > Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you > can > be financially independent through other means with out the job. > What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances > who > don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a > full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is > doing > nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > raisers edge. > The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps > with no outside help. > So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and > ACB > is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things > may change soon. > > That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope > this > does not happen again. > > Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > disability groups. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may > call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > people, > and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with > the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from > the > various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > I'm > really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed > out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, > it's > okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, > but > a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian > even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > the > views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was > not > under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > hate > for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to > pretend > that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve > the > right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > circumstances > doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> happen again. >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >> be the darling of >> >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> chapters and >> >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> examples of backing the wrong person. >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >> up in >> >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>> is not occurring. >>> >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>> diverse. I also >>> >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>> they have >>> >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>> transgendered people. >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>> announcement and >>> >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>> social purposes. >>> >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> changes >>> >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>> what happens. >>> Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> multipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>> help them with. >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Joe and others, >>>> >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>> >>>> to >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>> >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>> having >>>> >>>> to >>>> educate every person who writes >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>> for us >>>> >>>> to >>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>> >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>> training. >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>> education. >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>> >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> >>>>>Arielle, >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>> >>>>>Joe, >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>> >>>>>Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >>>>>> is > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>> does. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>0visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>> .com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >> 40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 01:03:01 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:03:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] raisers edge How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <004f01cf4ea9$bb7b1900$32714b00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9756B18BC77945D3ABEDE73E9FD8AE47@OwnerPC> Dave, if your work uses it, surely you understand the inaccessibility there. I , as a potential customer and user, did in fact speak to blackbaud. They must still make raisers edge. I spoke to them a few years back when I was going to volunteer in nonprofits which had it. Blackbaud simply told me you could use it with a screen enlargement software, but they did not think it would work with jaws. They did not seem interested in saying more or remeddying the problem. I agree we have to speak up to companies like Blackbaud, but speaking up as a little person without organization backing rarely gets anywhere. Thanks for your input though and I'm glad to know they have heard from another blind user. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 8:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? Well, as Steve said, I am not sure what the NFB can do. The pressure on Black Baud, developer of Raiser's Edge needs to come from customers and prospective customers. We use it where I work, and I have tried pushing them a few times, but probably need to do it again. Parts are accessible, parts aren't. Parts could probably be scripted. Dave At 04:54 PM 4/2/2014, you wrote: >As a person involved some in technology, could you explain more about >Razor's Edge and which companies are using >it that you have encountered? If you look at the myriad of accessibility >issues, it is hard to know how to >prioritize them. Unfortunately, many issues do not fall cleanly under >existing laws. What I mean by cleanly is >that laws may apply in such a borderline fashion that getting a positive >decision is unlikely. I am >oversimplifying this some, but to a large degree there is no law preventing >companies from producing inaccessible >software. Where are lever has been is in affecting software by making it >illegal or at least harder to have >governmental entities buy it. In some cases we have been successful when a >private business had an inaccessible >web site but their web site was used to enhance the experience at a public >location. This whole area of >accessibility to websites and software on the job is not well defined >legally at all. I know that the >International Braille and Technology Center works with many companies all >the time and an attempt has been made to >publicize the efforts of companies who have made their software accessible. >There needs to be a ton of work done >on this yet and in some cases, there is not much that can be done legally. >If you have brought Razor's Edge to >the national Office and they have told you it isn't important enough to >work on, I would be very surprised. >However, there are a number of reasons why it might not be that easy to >correct very quickly including the good >old "reasonable effort" and "Undo Burden" language in many laws. > >Would you say more about this? > >Best regards, > >Steve Jacobson > >-----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > >Bramlett > >Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > >Kaiti, > >The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions > >too. > >Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. > >I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy > >too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on > >terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is > >kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; > >get > >a job. > >Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you > >can > >be financially independent through other means with out the job. > >What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances > >who > >don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes > >a > >full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is > >doing > >nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like > >raisers edge. > >The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your > >bootstraps > >with no outside help. > >So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and > >ACB > >is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these > >values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. > >Things > >may change soon. > > >That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. > >I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope > >this > >does not happen again. > > >Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other > >disability groups. > > >Ashley > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Kaiti Shelton > >Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > >Hello all, > > >In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > >may > >call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those > >with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without > >blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to > >working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind > >people, > >and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish > >tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally > >with > >the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming > >relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from > >the > >various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have > >phrased > >it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > >I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but > >I'm > >really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle > >pointed > >out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, > >it's > >okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive > >(yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and > >aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, > >but > >a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another > >reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. > > >I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > >unitarian > >even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I > >realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than > >the > >views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, > >just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was > >not > >under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even > >remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know > >the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent > >part of convention? > >What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would > >hate > >for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, > >because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to > >pretend > >that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve > >the > >right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or > >circumstances > >doesn't seem right. > >Sorry for the rant. > > >On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > >> happen again. > >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > >> be the darling of > >> > >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > >> chapters and > >> > >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > >> examples of backing the wrong person. > >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew > >> up in > >> > >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling > >> of the federation. Have a blessed day. > >> Best Wishes > >> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > >> withmultipledisabilities? > >> > >> > >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded > >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make > >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual > >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal > >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too > >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all > >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled > >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other > >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the > >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But > >>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of > >>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this > >>> is not occurring. > >>> > >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > >>> diverse. I also > >>> > >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > >>> they have > >>> > >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came > >>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and > >>> transgendered people. > >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > >>> announcement and > >>> > >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for > >>> social purposes. > >>> > >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > >>> changes > >>> > >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > >>> what happens. > >>> Have a blessed day. > >>> Best Wishes > >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >>> multipledisabilities? > >>> > >>> > >>> Hi all, > >>> > >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number > >>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, > >>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true > >>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities > >>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >>> help them with. > >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind > >>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss > >>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been > >>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental > >>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and > >>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such > >>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or > >>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them > >>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have > >>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the > >>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and > >>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if > >>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes > >>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how > >>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there > >>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from > >>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are > >>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Arielle > >>> > >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>>> Joe and others, > >>>> > >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > >>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't > >>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We > >>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in > >>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do > >>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this > >>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then > >>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear > >>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. > >>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I > >>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt > >>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems > >>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for > >>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation > >>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I > >>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make > >>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > >>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > >>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > >>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a > >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of > >>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A > >>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the > >>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving > >>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered > >>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a > >>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably > >>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one > >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor > >>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major > >>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this > >>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even > >>>> now if we hadn't tried it. > >>>> > >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > >>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > >>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much > >>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you > >>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some > >>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we > >>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of > >>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader > >>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial > >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of > >>>> having > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> educate every person who writes > >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > >>>> for us > >>>> > >>>> to > >>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we > >>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are > >>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that > >>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the > >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, > >>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we > >>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to > >>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the > >>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be > >>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as > >>>> individuals and as an organization. > >>>> > >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > >>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as > >>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND > >>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. > >>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you > >>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not > >>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through > >>>> training. > >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it > >>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even > >>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic > >>>> education. > >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > >>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > >>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > >>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>>> > >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > >>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > >>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > >>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > >>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > >>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > >>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > >>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > >>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. > >>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>> > >>>> Steve Jacobson > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Arielle, > >>>>>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>>> > >>>>>Joe, > >>>>>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >>>>>furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I > >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the > >>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I > >>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I > >>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB > >>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of > >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics > >>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame > >>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to > >>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the > >>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. > >>>> > >>>>>Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Joe, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also > >>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a > >>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and > >>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is > >>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. > >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut > >>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable > >>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > >>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. > >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > >>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is > >>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped > >>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > >>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of > >>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance > >>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > >>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind > >>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I > >>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so > >>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative > >>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and > >>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this > >>>>>> is > >something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arielle > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >>>>>>> Hello all. > >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my > >>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one > >>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB > >>>>>>> does. > >>>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>>> mailing list > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have > >>>>>>> a mentoor. > >>>>>>> RJ > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Joe" > >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad > >>>>>>>> to be in the company > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited > >>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up > >>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > >>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's > >>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington > >>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. > >>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I > >>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in > >>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I > >>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting > >>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to > >>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder > >>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the > >>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the > >>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. > >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>>>>>>> professionals. > >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, > >>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or > >>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's > >>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste > >>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should > >>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women > >>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, > >>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>>>>>>> sustaining. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>>>>>>> don't want > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> it > >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college > >>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to > >>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's > >>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and > >>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and > >>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > >>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what > >>>>>>>> you always had > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave > >>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer > >>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective > >>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. > >>>>>>>> Whether > >>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >>>>>>>> want it to exist. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the > >>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > >>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do > >>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial > >>>>>>>> management to you. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new > >>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if > >>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. > >>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut > >>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you > >>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there > >>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here > >>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some > >>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be > >>>>>>>> this: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: > >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks > >>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > >>>>>>> le%40frontier.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >>>>>>> mail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 > >>>>>> 0gmail.com > >>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 > >>>>>0visi.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai > >>>> l.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. > >> com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > >> 40gmail.com > >> > > > >-- > >Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 01:27:08 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:27:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Printer and a Dux Berry Software In-Reply-To: <5B04FEA9-89D9-4B6E-88C8-ED4FFD0F93A2@me.com> References: <5B04FEA9-89D9-4B6E-88C8-ED4FFD0F93A2@me.com> Message-ID: <333ED1652D0B4916BC0C45F20650CECF@Helga> Hi Mathew, this is Helga! I'm interested, but first I need to talk to my parents since I use their budget. For how much are you offering for it? And does it come with a Dux berry software? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Dierckens Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2014 8:31 PM To: National Association Of Blind Students Mailing List Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Braille Printer and a Dux Berry Software Hi all. I believe I still have an old Romeo 25 embosser, the one with the serial and parallel ports on it and its in great condition. All you would have to do is get a USB to serial adapter from Amazon. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Since embossers and Duxbury, like other blindness technology, are costly, > you might check with your rehab agency about funding that purchase. I > would recommend the Romeo embossers from Enabling Technologies. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 7:38 PM, wrote: >> >> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I >> would like to have a Braille printer and a Dux Berry Software that comes >> with it at home. I just wanted to ask you, do you know where I can get >> one in order for me to use it so that I could print my school materials >> and my other personal materials as well? And if you know, what kind of >> Braille Printer do you recommend me to have? I’m just wondering, since >> my DSS office takes a long time to give me my Braille materials for my >> classes, and Just to let you know, I’m actually a visual learner when it >> comes to study! You probably think I’m cracy, but that is the way I study >> and learn school assignments! In fact, In fact, for me listening to an >> screen reader, or audio is not just enough for my learning, I actually >> like to follow along while listening to audio. And I actually have JAWS >> and I use it while reading my assignments in Braille. I’m not saying that >> audio and listening to a screen reader is bad; They are very helpful. I’m >> just saying that is not sufficient to succeed in higher education. And as >> you all know, I’m actually from peru, and my first language is not >> English, and that is why I use Braille in order to read my assignments >> like my sighted classmates. Maybe some of you will not agree with me, but >> I think that all visually impaired student and individual should learn >> how to read and write Braille. Just to let you know, Braille was the >> first method I learned how to use when I became blind 6 years ago, before >> even I learn how to use a computer and technology! In fact, many people >> told me about the Juliet or the Romeo Braille embossers, but I really don’t >> know if they are the right ones! I will really appreciate it, if you >> could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear >> from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From matt.dierckens at me.com Thu Apr 3 01:36:00 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 21:36:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Printer and a Dux Berry Software In-Reply-To: <333ED1652D0B4916BC0C45F20650CECF@Helga> References: <5B04FEA9-89D9-4B6E-88C8-ED4FFD0F93A2@me.com> <333ED1652D0B4916BC0C45F20650CECF@Helga> Message-ID: Hello. Well, iic I can find it, I'd say about $600, plus I'm not sure how much shipping would cost from Canada to your state. I need to also see if I still have the embosser at my dad's place. God bless. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 2, 2014, at 9:27 PM, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi Mathew, this is Helga! I'm interested, but first I need to talk to my parents since I use their budget. For how much are you offering for it? And does it come with a Dux berry software? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! > > -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Dierckens > Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2014 8:31 PM > To: National Association Of Blind Students Mailing List > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Braille Printer and a Dux Berry Software > > Hi all. > I believe I still have an old Romeo 25 embosser, the one with the serial and parallel ports on it and its in great condition. > All you would have to do is get a USB to serial adapter from Amazon. > If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll see what I can do. > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > >> Since embossers and Duxbury, like other blindness technology, are costly, you might check with your rehab agency about funding that purchase. I would recommend the Romeo embossers from Enabling Technologies. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 7:38 PM, wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I would like to have a Braille printer and a Dux Berry Software that comes with it at home. I just wanted to ask you, do you know where I can get one in order for me to use it so that I could print my school materials and my other personal materials as well? And if you know, what kind of Braille Printer do you recommend me to have? I’m just wondering, since my DSS office takes a long time to give me my Braille materials for my classes, and Just to let you know, I’m actually a visual learner when it comes to study! You probably think I’m cracy, but that is the way I study and learn school assignments! In fact, In fact, for me listening to an screen reader, or audio is not just enough for my learning, I actually like to follow along while listening to audio. And I actually have JAWS and I use it while reading my assignments in Braille. I’m not saying that audio and listening to a screen reader is bad; They are very helpful. I’m just saying that is not sufficient to succeed in higher education. And as you all know, I’m actually from peru, and my first language is not English, and that is why I use Braille in order to read my assignments like my sighted classmates. Maybe some of you will not agree with me, but I think that all visually impaired student and individual should learn how to read and write Braille. Just to let you know, Braille was the first method I learned how to use when I became blind 6 years ago, before even I learn how to use a computer and technology! In fact, many people told me about the Juliet or the Romeo Braille embossers, but I really don’t know if they are the right ones! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From michaeldforzano at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 02:01:24 2014 From: michaeldforzano at gmail.com (Michael Forzano) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 19:01:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue Message-ID: Hi All, I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to me. My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times more than you were paying them for the same amount of work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't make sense. Mike From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 02:15:24 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 20:15:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive enough. I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. Arielle On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: > Hi All, > > I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB > is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to > me. > > My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have > disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the > job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as > cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty > clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. > After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times > more than you were paying them for the same amount of > work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. > > People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because > they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them > from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these > people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their > lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right > now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. > > I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it > seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the > employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't > make sense. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu Apr 3 02:32:50 2014 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:32:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> Message-ID: <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea where to start! I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that I have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I can say that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I had nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In short, I felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there some people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this way? Yes. But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the federation were also to blame. My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. I honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the knowledge and experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers to organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every aspect of the organization and initially felt that the organization and its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences radically shifted my opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely disoriented. Self reflection caused me to recognize a few things that might be relevant to this discussion. First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization and the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the Federation our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to support all blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say that, in everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short sometimes for one reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really believe that it is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive toward our stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our hearts and a bad attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others toward our organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that challenge and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I believe the membership I impacted also came out better as well. I also believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as a member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot of personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a member is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I decided to do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for it. In the process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other people in the organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived for being a perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize overtime that there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and that it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the organization? Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say to hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about them. That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make some good points and recommendations for what blind people can do to better themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations truly do make a difference. It's up to you whether or not you are willing to assess your own life to determine what recommendations will help you improve. Everyone has room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down whatever defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you might find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful to you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there are also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday be added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness to speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the Federation. But that can't happen if you decide to leave. I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The field of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We have learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We now know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making some things easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate for ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way we express ourselves is going to change. But that does not mean that our mission has changed. And yes, we have taken on a few initiatives that cost a lot of money. In the current budgetary climate, we do need to work harder at raising some funds in order to keep these initiatives afloat. That said, I believe the national organization recognizes that not everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. I think the national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us to participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to sell things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you to do what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have more enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or public education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning about our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are members who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways really. As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured discovery perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect way to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching people the skills they need to make sense of the world and to act in it given their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who does not push a student out of their comfort zone is no teacher at all. And it doesn't really matter if that teacher is a travel instructor or a mentor at convention. The best teachers keep students in a sweet spot where they are definitely challenged, but not so challenged as to make the experience a total wash. If you are the student so to speak and find yourself with a teacher who either doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your ability, then it is your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in that sweet spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between your actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, if you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it wrong anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no matter what kind of blind person you are. At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that those of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not alone. Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the territory of being one member among many within a vast organization whose membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to people about your experience as you will likely find someone who has been there and who can be both a support system and an advisor to you as to what you might do to find your place among us once again. Like I said, I have been there before and I am still working on finding my place. I'm not really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident that I will nonetheless. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > > Hi all, > There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I’m sorry if I somehow repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get quite caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. > > > It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two things primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. > I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in hand with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take different things from the organization. Some love what we do and want to be a part of it, others can’t give time but can give money, some not money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want to be members with no responsibility in the organization. > Honestly, I think it’s very important that we continue to make an effort to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over time will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. > > Some of us feel like we don’t have a real connection with people in our chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we need to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can do and simply giving up won’t solve the problem. It of course is totally possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn’t very receptive to new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation stands for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is very important, and I hope that everyone here does this. > it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the movement. some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of us know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do all of these things are important. > > > Darian > > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >> drawings and the like. >> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >> could be a loss of programs and resources. >> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>> Hello all. >>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>> Thanks. >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joe" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> >>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>> was >>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >>>> >>>> of >>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>> leadership >>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>> spirit, >>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>> >>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>>> that >>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>>> it >>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >>>> of >>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>> more >>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>> >>>> I >>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>> >>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>> efforts >>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>> scope. >>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >>>> the >>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>> and >>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>> resources >>>> we've already had. >>>> >>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>> professionals. >>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >>>> be >>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>> when >>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>> >>>> a >>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>>> to >>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>>> to >>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>> >>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >>>> >>>> it >>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>> guide >>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>> own >>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>> you >>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>> >>>> to >>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>> will >>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >>>> or >>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>>> exist. >>>> >>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>> happier, >>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>> lesson >>>> in financial management to you. >>>> >>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>> never >>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>> provide >>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>> couldn't >>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>>> at >>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>> strength. >>>> >>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>> the >>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>> the >>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>> >>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>> and >>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 03:01:37 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:01:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> Message-ID: Hi Antonio, I worked Youth Slam in 2009 and had similar impressions. As I said in my evaluation of the program, I think Youth Slam should have been divided up into two sessions each with 100 students, perhaps at the beginning and end of the summer. Many youth summer programs in the mainstream world have two sessions to accommodate different summer schedules. It's not a blindness thing; having 300 kids in one program is incredibly chaotic and it is difficult for overworked mentors and staff to give each student the individual attention he or she might require. It is especially hard when students are trying to learn new blindness skills. A two-session setup would have served the same number of kids and I don't think would have cost any more money. I'm disappointed that suggestion wasn't implemented but hope they at least considered it. You also make an excellent point about the sociology of organizational change. I am teaching social psychology this semester and re-reading a lot of basic social psych theory, and learning just how powerful group norms can be. Sometimes a very dynamic leader can change a group's direction singlehandedly, but that is rare. It usually requires some kind of collective shift just to allow that person to gain power and then the organization needs to move in the leader's direction; otherwise reform attempts are not effective. While I agree that we shouldn't leave the organization altogether if we are frustrated with it, I also think that we need to take collective responsibility for change. It starts with discussion in a safe place where people can feel free to express opposing viewpoints, such as we have here on list. Perhaps those of us young adults who want to see specific changes made should set up an off-record meeting at convention to discuss this further. When some of us as individuals feel disillusioned, we can underestimate how many others might be feeling the same way but afraid to express it publicly. Best, Arielle On 4/2/14, Jedi Moerke wrote: > Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea where to > start! > > I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that I > have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I can say > that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I had > nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In short, I > felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there some people > and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this way? Yes. > But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the federation were > also to blame. > > My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. I > honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the knowledge and > experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers to > organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every aspect > of the organization and initially felt that the organization and its members > could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences radically shifted my > opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely disoriented. Self > reflection caused me to recognize a few things that might be relevant to > this discussion. > > First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization and the > members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the Federation our > sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to support all blind > people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say that, in > everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the attitude > we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short sometimes for one > reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really believe that it > is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive toward our > stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our hearts and a bad > attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others toward our > organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that challenge > and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I believe the > membership I impacted also came out better as well. I also believe that we > managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. > > I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself within > the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as a member of > the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot of personal > agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a member is not > determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I decided to do away > with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for it. In the > process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other people in the > organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived for being a > perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize overtime that > there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and that it was > all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the organization? > Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other areas > of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say to hell with > them. I can think of better things to do than worry about them. That said, I > do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make some good points and > recommendations for what blind people can do to better themselves. I am > living proof that many of these recommendations truly do make a difference. > It's up to you whether or not you are willing to assess your own life to > determine what recommendations will help you improve. Everyone has room to > grow, so I encourage all of you too take down whatever defenses you may > have and have a listen. You never know, you might find something helpful > somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful to you and your situation? Don't > worry about it. In fact, feel free to offer your own ideas. There are those > who will not listen, but there are also plenty who will. You never know, > your perspective may someday be added to our common philosophy. At the very > least, your willingness to speak your ideas may make room for some other > member of the Federation. But that can't happen if you decide to leave. > > I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be > undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our > organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The field of > blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are willing to > work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We have learned a lot > about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We now know that we can > drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. Technology has changed our > lives in a number of ways making some things easier and some things more > difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate for ourselves has changed a great > deal as well. So naturally, the way we express ourselves is going to change. > But that does not mean that our mission has changed. And yes, we have taken > on a few initiatives that cost a lot of money. In the current budgetary > climate, we do need to work harder at raising some funds in order to keep > these initiatives afloat. That said, I believe the national organization > recognizes that not everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. > I think the national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us > to participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our > participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal > contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the > organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to sell > things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind > campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you to do > what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have more > enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or public > education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning about our > fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are members who > moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways really. > > As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's comment > regarding their suppose it inability to do structured discovery perfectly. I > hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect way to do structure > discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching people the skills they need > to make sense of the world and to act in it given their abilities and > challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a person's challenges is no > teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who does not push a student out of their > comfort zone is no teacher at all. And it doesn't really matter if that > teacher is a travel instructor or a mentor at convention. The best teachers > keep students in a sweet spot where they are definitely challenged, but not > so challenged as to make the experience a total wash. If you are the student > so to speak and find yourself with a teacher who either doesn't push you or > who pushes you beyond your ability, then it is your responsibility to find > somebody who can keep you in that sweet spot. It is also up to you to > recognize the difference between your actual challenges and those that are > self-imposed. As a final thought, if you do structure discovery perfectly, > then you are probably doing it wrong anyway as structured discovery is never > perfect, and that is true no matter what kind of blind person you are. > > At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that those of > you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not alone. > Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the territory > of being one member among many within a vast organization whose membership > succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to people about your > experience as you will likely find someone who has been there and who can be > both a support system and an advisor to you as to what you might do to find > your place among us once again. Like I said, I have been there before and I > am still working on finding my place. I'm not really sure when or how I will > get there, but I am still confident that I will nonetheless. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I somehow >> repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get quite >> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought up >> a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >> >> >> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two things >> primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in hand >> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and want to >> be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, some not >> money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want to be >> members with no responsibility in the organization. >> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an effort >> to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their >> needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over time >> will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as people, >> as friends and this is what keeps people around. >> >> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people in our >> chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we need >> to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can do >> and simply giving up won't solve the problem. It of course is totally >> possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn't very receptive to >> new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation stands >> for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, then >> finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is very >> important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the movement. >> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of us >> know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do all >> of these things are important. >> >> >> Darian >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>> drawings and the like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>> Hello all. >>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>> Thanks. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>> without >>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joe" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>>> was >>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>> company >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>> real >>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>> leadership >>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>> spirit, >>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>>>> that >>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>>>> it >>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>> dose >>>>> of >>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>>> more >>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>> frustrating >>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>> whom >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>> >>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>> the >>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>> efforts >>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>> scope. >>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>> or >>>>> the >>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>>> and >>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>> resources >>>>> we've already had. >>>>> >>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>> professionals. >>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>> will >>>>> be >>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>>> when >>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>>>> to >>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>> NFB >>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>>>> to >>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>> >>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>> want >>>>> >>>>> it >>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what >>>>> I >>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>> of >>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>>> guide >>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>>> own >>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>> you >>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>> had >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>>> will >>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >>>>> or >>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it >>>>> to >>>>> exist. >>>>> >>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>> I've >>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>> happier, >>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>> lesson >>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>> never >>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>> provide >>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>> through >>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>> couldn't >>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>>>> at >>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>> our >>>>> strength. >>>>> >>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>>> the >>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>>> the >>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>> >>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>> consume >>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>>> and >>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Apr 3 03:05:25 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:05:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 90, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I.am not sure if this is just me, but one of the key differences for me between the two organizations is how they view why we should be independent. To me, the nfb views.independence as gained through hard work and perseverance while the acb views it through entitlement. I haven't done much of anything with acb and when I got involved in the nfb I.do not feel like I was radically impacted by the philosophies because I embraced similar ideas. I see the nfb offering more to me personally and me being able to give more. I apologize if I am repeating things that have already been said or if I am off of the mark with my views. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:35 PM, Joy Mistovich wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > I agree exactly with Arielle and believe that the NFB is a liberal civil > rights organizations. In general, I believe the majority of civil rights > organizations-- no matter if they include people with and without > disabilities-- are liberal in nature. The NFB's main philosophy and thrust > of integrating the blind community equally into society is heavily based > upon the side of democracy and liberalism. I have just completed a research > paper for an independent study relating to how the blind and visually > impaired are viewed within society. In other words, I discussed the > experiences of two visually impaired writers and professors, explained the > stereotypes encountered throughout one of their memoirs, and how the NFB > has been able to lessen the few stereotypes I could critically expound on. > After researching more heavily into the ACB and NFB organizations, I have > realized that the ACB is much more conservative. One of the articles I > found about an NFB member criticizing this organization stated that "The > ACB is conservative" and they don't do enough to produce confident blind > individuals. Finally, the NFB in general is a support network for > individuals to share their experiences and learn from others who have > encountered similar dilemmas. When a blind person needs assistance and they > are lucky enough to discover the NFB, they network and make friends with > other individuals; none of the NFB members walk alone on their journey. > They will always have other individuals to guide them. No man is an island. > This is what I have discovered after my first year within this > organization, and I am extremely grateful to be a member!!! > Joy > > >> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:54 PM, wrote: >> >> Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Walgreen proves the business case for hiring 'disabled' >> (Lewis, Anil) >> 2. Re: JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive (Ashley Bramlett) >> 3. Re: How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (Ashley Bramlett) >> 4. The American Dream Fellowship (Lewis, Anil) >> 5. Re: How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (justin williams) >> 6. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities >> mental illness (Sam Nelson) >> 7. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities >> mental illness (Arielle Silverman) >> 8. NFB and conservatism/liberalism (Arielle Silverman) >> 9. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities >> mental illness (Sam Nelson) >> 10. Re: How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (Steve Jacobson) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:35:04 +0000 >> From: "Lewis, Anil" >> To: "Affiliate Presidents >> (state-affiliate-leadership-list at nfbnet.org)" >> , "NFB Chapter >> Presidents >> discussion list (chapter-presidents at nfbnet.org)" >> , "NABS List (nabs-l at nfbnet.org)" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Walgreen proves the business case for hiring >> 'disabled' >> Message-ID: >> < >> ede3be875cde4b799c067b7461f67958 at BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> We underestimated them, it's as simple as that... The biggest impediment >> to overcome is fear. >> >> >> Walgreen proves the business case for hiring 'disabled' >> >> http://bloom-parentingkidswithdisabilities.blogspot.ca/2014/03/walgreen-proves-business-case- >> >> In 2006 Randy Lewis changed the way Walgreen Co. does business. >> As senior vice-president of supply chain and logistics for the U.S. drug >> store chain, Lewis oversaw 10,000 employees and up to a thousand new hires >> each year. As a father to Austin, who has autism, he knew the difference a >> job could make in the lives of young people with disabilities. >> >> In No Greatness Without Goodness Lewis explains >> how he brought his corporate and personal worlds together, transforming >> Walgreen's distribution centres into inclusive workplaces where people with >> all kinds of physical and mental disabilities, many deemed unemployable, >> work to the same standards and earn the same pay as other staff. >> >> The company's new mindset is proclaimed in a giant sign when you enter the >> building with the words "No 'them'" in a circle and a line drawn through it. >> >> BLOOM: What is the message of your new book? >> >> Randy Lewis: It's the story of how I got involved with disability hiring, >> why we did it as a company and how we were able to go from essentially zero >> to 10 per cent of the workforce in five years. >> >> The reason I wrote it was one, so that people could understand that people >> with disabilities could work effectively and have a positive impact on the >> work environment. It wasn't just as good, it was better. >> >> And two, that we all tend to underestimate our power to effect change and >> that everyone, I think, at their core really does want to change the world. >> As leaders, if we can tap into that in ourselves, that we want to do good >> things, we can unleash that in others. >> >> BLOOM: How did you get the idea to hire people with disabilities? >> >> Randy Lewis: I have a son with autism and so watching him grow up, I >> shared the same dream of other parents like me-to live one day longer than >> my child because you wonder what will happen to them after you're gone. >> We'd go to these IEP conferences at school and I realized disability plays >> no favourites. It strikes traditional and non-traditional families, rich >> and poor. I got to thinking: 'What is going to happen to all of these other >> kids and parents?' If we're hiring over here at Walgreen and there's a need >> over there, why can't we bring those two worlds together? >> >> BLOOM: How did you sell the idea to the company? >> >> Randy Lewis: I said we're not going to lower any of our performance >> standards, we're a business, not a charity, and if it didn't work out, we >> wouldn't do it. What I discovered as an employer was we had lots of >> invisible walls around us-systems that we thought were giving us the best >> performers, but weren't. >> >> We were screening out a whole class of people who would never get through >> the Internet job application, or interview well, or look and talk like >> everyone else, or have all of their limbs. That was a huge turning point. >> >> BLOOM: How did you get buy-in from existing staff? >> >> Randy Lewis: We'd had some experience with enclaves, where we contract >> with another company and they bring people in with disabilities, typically >> to do janitorial or ancillary tasks, and they supervise them. All our >> employees liked it, management liked it. Here we are helping these people, >> but they weren't integrated. >> >> One day a team member told the group about how important this work was to >> her and she showed a picture of these people with disabilities. They were >> all wearing the same shirts and she was in the picture with them, also >> wearing the same shirt. She made a point of telling me she was not 'one of >> them,' but their sponsor. I knew that was a problem. We had not embraced >> people with disabilities as equals. >> >> After that we hired a young man with Asperger's to work on the line at one >> of our centres and he did a fantastic job. We had two women he worked with >> and I talked to them and asked 'How are things working with Chuck? Are >> people accepting him?' They said: 'If they don't, they have to deal with >> us,' and I thought now we're making progress. >> >> Each of our buildings has different coloured plastic totes for shipping, >> and in this building they were grey. A couple of times every day a purple >> tote would get mixed up and come down the line and Chuck loved those purple >> totes. He would dance every time he saw one. At one point we said 'Is that >> appropriate behaviour for the workplace?' But then we got to thinking 'Why >> not?' We'd rather have him dancing than complaining. >> >> So we started learning about inclusion and we were about to build a new >> generation of building. We had experience with the enclaves, we knew Chuck >> could work on the line, so I thought maybe this is time. Why don't we >> develop our automation with people with disabilities in mind. >> >> BLOOM: How did you decide on what proportion of staff would have >> disabilities? >> >> Randy Lewis: When it came time to plan a new-generation distribution >> centre 10 years ago to handle our growing business, I believed it was an >> opportunity to 'go big' with disability hiring in an intentional manner. We >> were designing new equipment and we thought let's make it effective for >> people with disabilities if we can do that with negligible cost. >> >> We talked to a fellow who worked with people with autism. We knew we >> couldn't afford a lot of job coaches and we asked him how many typically >> abled people would we initially need to provide support to a person with >> autism, thinking the person with autism might be the most difficult to >> employ. He said maybe two people. So we decided one-third of the workforce >> is going to be a person with a disability. >> >> No one had ever done this anywhere in the world in a production >> environment. If we don't get orders shipped accurately we're not in >> business. This was a clear and elevating goal. We would hire 200 people >> with disabilities out of 600 to staff this new-generation centre we were >> building in South Carolina. >> >> Two years later we opened up a similar centre with the same goals near >> Hartford, Conn. >> >> BLOOM: What did you learn? >> >> Randy Lewis: We discovered that people with disabilities could do all of >> the jobs, not just the jobs we'd designed the equipment in mind for. The >> automation we put in helped everyone, not just the people with >> disabilities. We brought in managers from our other centres to show them >> that it wasn't about the automation. That they didn't have to have >> specialized equipment that we had in the new centre to be successful at >> this. They liked what they saw and were ready to try it out in their less >> automated buildings. And I asked them to set a clear and elevating goal and >> they said let's hire 1,000 people by the year 2010. >> >> BLOOM: Why were the staff with disabilities so effective? >> >> Randy Lewis: We underestimated them, it's as simple as that. When we >> measure performance, the people with disabilities perform as well >> statistically as the others. The standard is not that they have to be >> Superman or Jackie Robinson. But the employees with disabilities also have >> fewer accidents, better retention, less absenteeism and they make people >> better managers and create greater teamwork. >> >> BLOOM: So it sounds like overall there were definite advantages. >> >> Randy Lewis: Yes. >> >> BLOOM: Did the culture in these environments change for the better. >> >> Randy Lewis: I asked people in our South Carolina and Connecticut centres >> who'd worked in other buildings without disability hiring, 'How did you >> rank engagement when you were there?' And they'd say probably a seven or >> eight out of 10. Then I asked them to compare that level of engagement with >> what they saw in the building they were in now. They said the eight would >> drop to a two. >> >> 'We didn't know what engagement was until we got here,' they said. 'We >> didn't know what teamwork was like.' >> >> If you ask managers in the buildings with a large percentage of people >> with disabilities what is their number one job, they'll say 'My job is to >> make everybody who works for me successful.' When you have that kind of >> attitude the workforce notices and they respond to it. >> >> BLOOM: How has the experience created better managers? >> >> Randy Lewis: We've learned to 'manage in the grey' and by that I mean we >> want to manage with values or principles, not rules. People like rules, >> bosses like rules because they're easier to administer. For some of our >> supervisors that was uncomfortable at first, but I said if it's just about >> administering rules I can get my own children to come in and run this >> place. We asked people to look at the purpose of rules and apply what were >> the principles of the rule, rather than the rule itself. This caused us to >> look at a lot of our policies. >> >> We changed the way we hire and recruit because a lot of people can't get >> through the Internet application system or need help applying. If there's a >> discipline problem, we let the employee bring in a parent or advocate >> because we want to make sure they understand and we understand. >> >> Sometimes we make exceptions to a rule. For example, I remember a >> situation where a young man became frustrated because he had to work >> overtime and he was going to miss a doctor's appointment. He punched a >> computer screen and broke it. >> >> The rule is that if you break something intentionally, you're fired >> forever and forever banned from the company. We got to thinking: 'Is that a >> good rule? Is there ever an exception?' Even Aristotle way back when noted >> that human behaviour is not mathematics, it's not finite reasoning, there >> are exceptions to all things. >> >> So we went back and had to look at that policy as it applied to all of our >> staff. We needed a framework. And it was: 'Is there an extenuating >> circumstance? Is there a reason to expect the person won't do it again? And >> what's the likelihood that they'll be able to find employment elsewhere?' >> We don't decide in favour of the employee in every case, but we did in that >> one. >> >> Our managers say this idea of managing in the grey is the most powerful >> thing that's made them better managers. >> >> BLOOM: It sounds like they feel empowered in a new way. >> >> Randy Lewis: The change is huge. They talk about managing with love, a >> word we've never used in the workplace. >> A few years back we had the president of a Best Buy division come through >> for a tour and afterwards he sat down with our managers to ask questions. >> 'I've heard all the good things about this place,' he said. 'What's a bad >> day like?' >> >> And essentially the supervisors said: 'A bad day is when I come in with my >> own problems and I'm not focused on my staff and the work. You know that >> saying 'You come home and you want to kick the dog?' If I do that at work >> my staff will either shut down or start acting out or they'll confront me >> and tell me why I'm being a jerk. Or they'll come up and give me a hug. One >> thing I've learned is that when I'm here, it's about them, not me.' >> >> BLOOM: How costly is it to train people with disabilities? >> >> Randy Lewis: It was negligible. What we did was go out in the community >> and get partners. We demanded that disability agencies in the community >> form a coalition and work together with us. We built a training room in a >> community-rented space and for a year the community screened and trained >> people and taught them how to use our equipment. Now we have training rooms >> within our buildings. >> >> Typically a new employee has 60 days' probation and by 60 days they have >> to be up to full productivity. We anticipated that people with disabilities >> might need longer because out training might not be right for everyone. So >> we created an alternative pipeline into the company. If you have a >> disability and want to come in that route you are paid as a temporary >> employee, with no benefits, and you can stay in that group as long as >> you're progressing towards full productivity. It might take 60 days or >> less, some may take 90. One person took a year. Once they're at full >> productivity they're hired as permanent staff. >> >> BLOOM: In a news story I saw you talked about an accommodation where you >> name, as well as number, stations. Can you explain that? >> >> Randy Lewis: For someone who has difficulty with numbers and directions, >> we've named stations as a group of animals in a zoo. So we might say >> 'You'll be working at rhinoceros in zoo.' We also have a race-cart alley >> and a hamburger alley. So perhaps you'll be working at the hot dog station >> in hamburger alley. These are simple things that help some people. Most of >> our accommodations cost less than $20 and most are paper and pencil. >> >> BLOOM: What's been the greatest challenge in implementing this model? >> >> Randy Lewis: The biggest impediment to overcome is fear. >> >> BLOOM: How did you manage that? >> >> Randy Lewis: To outsiders in the organization I said: 'We're here to make >> money, we're here to make it work. If people with disabilities can't to the >> job, they won't be working here.' >> >> To those who reported to me I said 'Our standard is to give it our very >> best, so if it doesn't work, we can tell the world this is not possible. >> Give it your very best, and if it doesn't work, we know no one else could >> have done it better than us.' That was very freeing for everyone. >> >> We also said 'We don't have all the answers. There are going to be >> problems we can't anticipate, so let's not worry about those. If you >> anticipate a problem, let's figure out a way around it. And you can't bring >> a What if? unless you've thought of a way around it. Most of the problems >> we anticipated never happened.' >> >> BLOOM: What was a problem you didn't anticipate? >> >> Randy Lewis: We thought all of our systems were great for getting us the >> best employees. We thought we'd build this and as soon as we put an ad in >> the paper all of the people with disabilities would come flocking to us. We >> didn't think about the fact that this is a group that doesn't read the >> paper every morning looking for places to work. It's not a group that >> trusts employers. It's a group that may have difficulty in even getting to >> the job site for the interview. We didn't realize we had so many invisible >> walls. >> >> It took some work for us to say gee whiz, we're going to have to do >> something different. We worked with community agencies. We've had to teach >> them to understand our jobs and send us people that they believe will be >> successful. >> >> BLOOM: What are common myths about hiring people with disabilities? >> >> Randy Lewis: That they can't do the job, it's going to cost me more to >> make them effective and when they fail I will get punished. >> >> BLOOM: Has Walgreen hired people who were considered unemployable? >> >> Randy Lewis: Lots of them. For most of them it's their first job. >> >> BLOOM: What does the average person get paid? >> >> Randy Lewis: They make close to US$30,000 on the production line. >> >> BLOOM: I heard that in a couple of your distribution centres as many as >> half of all employees have disabilities. >> >> Randy Lewis: In our original centre in South Carolina, 40 per cent have >> disabilities. In our newer centre in Connecticut, 50 per cent have >> disabilities. In 2011 we achieved our goal of having 10 per cent of the >> workforce made up by people with disabilities. Before I retired 14 months >> ago, the centre managers from across the country met and set a new goal to >> reach 20 per cent. >> >> BLOOM: What kind of impact do these jobs have on people with disabilities? >> >> Randy Lewis: For many a world of possibility, opportunity and >> responsibility is opened to them for the first time. They have >> relationships they've never had before. They have money they never had >> before. And there are some unanticipated consequences, too. For instance, >> some become like teenagers: they stay up too late at night playing video >> games because they can afford them now. It's a whole village of people >> working together that's expanded everyone's way of thinking. >> >> BLOOM: What advice would you give a parent who's concerned that their >> child won't be able to get a job due to disabilities? >> >> Randy Lewis: The words we hear as parents of a child with a disability are >> 'always' and 'never.' We have found that that's not necessarily true. I was >> in Canada yesterday with a new organization of employers called >> SensAbility. They're going to look for employers in Canada who will help >> spread this model. Ontario's Lieutenant Governor David Onley has taken >> employers to visit our site and is very active in helping Canada advance on >> this front. So I'm very hopeful about Canada. >> >> BLOOM: What about your son. What are his dreams? >> >> Randy Lewis: I wish I knew. I wish he could tell me. He's 25 and he works >> about 12 hours a week in a Walgreens store. There's a Michigan company >> building a distribution centre about an hour from here in Chicago and the >> owner has talked about how one day he wants Austin to be their employee. So >> we're going to go up and see it. >> >> BLOOM: What impact do you hope your book will have? >> >> Randy Lewis: I hope people read it and believe it's possible and try it. >> There are enough models out there to do it. We make only three cents on the >> dollar, so our margins are razor thin. If Walgreen could do it-and we >> didn't have any models to work from-anyone can do it. >> >> >> >> Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. >> Deputy Executive Director >> >> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute >> 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place >> Baltimore, Maryland 21230 >> >> (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) >> (410) 659-5129 (FAX) >> Email: alewis at nfb.org >> Web: www.nfb.org >> Twitter: @AnilLife >> >> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the >> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the >> expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles >> between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; >> blindness is not what holds you back. >> >> To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination >> Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture< >> http://www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture>. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:39:50 -0400 >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> I hate the sound of the default NVDA. can you get the elloquence >> synthesizer >> for it? >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:43 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive >> >> Hi Helga, >> >> I'm not a computer guru, so I'll admit I may be wrong on this; but I >> don't think you can do this with JAWS. However, you can do it with >> NVDA, which is a free screenreader you can download and install to a >> flashdrive. I use a flashdrive with NVDA on it so I don't have to >> worry about finding an inaccessible computer when I study at the >> library, and it works really well. >> >> HTH. >> >> On 4/1/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com >> wrote: >>> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, is it >>> true >>> that you can put the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in order to >>> take >>> it around and use it in other computers that don't have the software? And >>> if >>> it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way that I can put it in my >> thumb >>> drive? I'm just wondering since I want to see and check my mom's computer >>> or >>> other friend's computer that doesn't have JAWS the Software, so that I >> can >>> use it. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me >> some >>> suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much >> and >>> God bless!! >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:38:09 -0400 >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> Message-ID: <77328BBEDA50436084BDF1BAF398A8EC at OwnerPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Kaiti, >> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. >> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy >> too. The idea >> that we have to get out there and integrate into society on terms of >> equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is kind of >> conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; get a job. >> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that >> you can be financially independent through other means with out the job. >> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances >> who >> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a >> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing >> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like >> raisers edge. >> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps >> with no outside help. >> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB >> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these >> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things >> may change soon. >> >> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this >> does not happen again. >> >> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >> disability groups. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Hello all, >> >> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >> may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >> those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >> without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >> starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >> huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >> working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >> same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then >> we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with >> that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >> organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it >> better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >> but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the >> car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is >> purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather >> than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people >> who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >> that just doesn't make sense. >> >> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself >> at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are >> more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't >> always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important >> that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had >> any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >> Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this >> light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? >> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >> would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >> minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >> greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are >> less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit >> their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >> Sorry for the rant. >> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> happen >>> again. >>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they >>> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> devisions >>> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling >>> of >>> >>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters >>> and >>> >>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what >>> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of >>> backing the wrong person. >>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up >>> in >>> >>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of >>> the federation. Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>> withmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the >>>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >>>> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >>>> occurring. >>>> >>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >> diverse >>>> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I >>>> also >>>> >>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they >>>> have >>>> >>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >>>> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >>>> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >>>> people. >>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement >>>> and >>>> >>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >>>> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >>>> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >>>> purposes. >>>> >>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>> changes >>>> >>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >> what >>>> happens. >>>> Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>> multipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >>>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >>>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >>>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>> help them with. >>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >>>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >>>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >>>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >>>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >>>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >>>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >>>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >>>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >>>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >>>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >>>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Joe and others, >>>>> >>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >>>>> is >>>>> wrong. Organizations are made up of >>>>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely >>>>> going >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>>>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>>>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >>>>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >>>>> more >>>>> funds than we used to have to raise. I >>>>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >> is >>>>> a >>>>> risk. When you look at our budget and >>>>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >>>>> it >>>>> is certainly clear that legislative >>>>> successes are not >>>>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>>>> legislation >>>>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >>>>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >>>>> feel >>>>> particularly more so now that our >>>>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take >>>>> accessibility, >>>>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >>>>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >>>>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >>>>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>>>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>>> limits >>>>> of current technology and explore ways >>>>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >>>>> about >>>>> being able to drive a car, although I >>>>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >>>>> got >>>>> very excited about the fact that as a >>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>>>> of >>>>> getting information that had not been >>>>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the >> KNFB >>>>> reader. At the time, it was something >>>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>>>> reader to the lists of registered people at >>>>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have >> it >>>>> start to read the content. There have >>>>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of >>>>> one >>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We >>>>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >>>>> teachers, and major players in the >>>>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or >>>>> 90's, >>>>> and much of this would not have been >>>>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>> >>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >>>>> point is that a lot of this is about risks >>>>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these >>>>> efforts >>>>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >>>>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >>>>> learns >>>>> from what does, because if you make a >>>>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >>>>> thousand kids get into math or science >>>>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >>>>> better >>>>> because of what we did with the KNFB >>>>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >>>>> see >>>>> a reader that could use artificial >>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>> having >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for >>>>> us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> control the Google self-driving cars >>>>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >> least >>>>> some of the answers are yes, but at this >>>>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >>>>> grass >>>>> roots organization that we were in the >>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >> nor >>>>> was >>>>> it the right time for that. But it >>>>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >>>>> as >>>>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >>>>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>>>> satisfied >>>>> to say that it has to be that way, >>>>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >>>>> an >>>>> organization. >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >>>>> won't >>>>> miraculously make life better, and >>>>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to >> draw >>>>> conclusions about such training based >>>>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >>>>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >>>>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >>>>> Minnesota and I assume by our other >>>>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >>>>> that >>>>> you have to have a set of tools to >>>>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >>>>> more >>>>> than run people through training. >>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> Legislating >>>>> that software must be accessible and that >>>>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still >> needed, >>>>> but >>>>> it won't matter much if we don't have >>>>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if >>>>> we >>>>> don't get a good basic education. >>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >>>>> there are no braille instructors in a >>>>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead >>>>> to >>>>> success by itself, and you can't see any >>>>> given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>> >>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >> the >>>>> complex challenges we face with a larger >>>>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >>>>> understand where we are going and how our >>>>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >>>>> challenges of the world and what do we need >>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >>>>> asking questions like that outside of this >>>>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >>>>> understanding of asking for help and looking for >>>>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >>>>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >>>>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >>>>> members, though, to handle change. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>> >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>>>>> my >>>>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >>>>> potential the organization has moving >>>>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >>>>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>>>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >>>>> who >>>>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in >> a >>>>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >>>>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the >> line >>>>> and >>>>> pander to those with political power >>>>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >> still >>>>> within our local chapters. >>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >> to >>>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >> judgment >>>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >> that >>>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >> the >>>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >> all >>>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>>>> life, >>>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits >> all >>>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >> there >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >> as >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer >> as >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending >> a >>>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a >> person's >>>>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>>>> dose >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>> generating >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >> NFB >>>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >> about >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>> top, >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>>>> resources >>>>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really >> meant >>>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >> don't >>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>>>> verge >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>> guide >>>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >> and >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the >> NFB >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be >> a >>>>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have >> no >>>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>> excel >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>>>> greater >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>> consume >>>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 18:35:34 +0000 >> From: "Lewis, Anil" >> To: "Affiliate Presidents >> (state-affiliate-leadership-list at nfbnet.org)" >> , "NFB Chapter >> Presidents >> discussion list (chapter-presidents at nfbnet.org)" >> , "NABS List (nabs-l at nfbnet.org)" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] The American Dream Fellowship >> Message-ID: >> < >> 04706f3805614a9e92b3323e21d80adc at BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Michael Gamel-McCormick >> Disability Policy Director >> Chairman Tom Harkin >> Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions >> 404 Senate Hart Office Building >> w-(202)224-7692 >> c- (302)367-4282 >> >> The American Dream Fellowship >> >> The Cisneros Center for New Americans is >> excited to announce the creation of the American Dream Fellowship< >> http://www.cisneroscenter.org/american-dream-initiative/>, a paid >> opportunity for young and driven leaders who are passionate about >> empowering new immigrant families to fully engage their communities and >> live out their American Dream. >> >> During this paid 13-month fellowship, fellows will work together with >> community stakeholders in our inaugural host community of Northwest >> Arkansas to address barriers to integration for new immigrant families. >> Fellows will educate, advocate, and innovate. >> >> Educate. Fellows will work to instill a sense of urgency about education >> in new immigrant families by engaging family members in educational goals >> and breaking down barriers to academic achievement. In the process, the >> Fellows themselves will grow in their understanding and appreciation of the >> host community, and will embark in their own journey of personal growth. >> >> Advocate. Fellows will work to Improve access for new immigrants to the >> resources and services they need to pursue the American Dream, including >> through the path we have developed: A Road Map to The American Dream. To do >> this, Fellows will create strong and meaningful relationships with >> community members and stakeholders, and use their work to lend a voice to >> the community's needs. >> >> Innovate. Fellows will work closely with the community to leverage >> collective impact, proven strategies, and innovative technologies. The host >> community's leadership and fellows will work closely to generate creative >> solutions that maximize resources and impact. >> >> The American Dream Fellowship will begin in July of 2014 and run through >> August of the 2015. During the first month of their commitment, fellows >> will participate in a rigorous training based in San Antonio. While in >> Northwest Arkansas fellows will be supported and developed by the Cisneros >> Center staff and high level leaders. >> >> Fellows will receive a competitive salary of $50,000 and full benefits. >> >> To learn more about the Fellow profile, click here.< >> http://www.cisneroscenter.org/who-do-we-look-for/> >> >> For additional information about the fellowship, click here< >> http://www.cisneroscenter.org/why-join/>. >> >> How do you apply? >> >> Interested individuals can apply here< >> https://cisneroscenter.submittable.com/submit/bbf7f877-64ff-41d2-adb0-701f32b6723a>. >> The deadline for nominations and applications is 11:59 pm EST on Sunday, >> April 13, 2014. >> The application includes: >> >> * Basic information >> * Resume >> * Personal Statement >> >> Please visit www.cisneroscenter.org/apply< >> http://www.cisneroscenter.org/apply/> to apply. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Alyssa Mowitz >> Majority Staff * Disability Policy and Oversight Office >> Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions >> Chairman Tom Harkin >> 404 Hart Senate Office Building >> (202) 224-233 >> >> >> Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. >> Deputy Executive Director >> >> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute >> 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place >> Baltimore, Maryland 21230 >> >> (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) >> (410) 659-5129 (FAX) >> Email: alewis at nfb.org >> Web: www.nfb.org >> Twitter: @AnilLife >> >> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the >> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the >> expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles >> between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; >> blindness is not what holds you back. >> >> To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination >> Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture< >> http://www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture>. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:28:31 -0400 >> From: "justin williams" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> Message-ID: <004f01cf4ea9$bb7b1900$32714b00$@gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. >> Great point Ashley. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Kaiti, >> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too. >> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy >> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on >> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is >> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; >> get >> a job. >> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you can >> be financially independent through other means with out the job. >> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances >> who >> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a >> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing >> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like >> raisers edge. >> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps >> with no outside help. >> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB >> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these >> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things >> may change soon. >> >> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this >> does not happen again. >> >> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >> disability groups. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Hello all, >> >> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may >> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those >> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to >> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >> people, >> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish >> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with >> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the >> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but >> I'm >> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed >> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's >> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive >> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but >> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >> >> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> unitarian >> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than >> the >> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, >> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not >> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even >> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know >> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent >> part of convention? >> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would >> hate >> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend >> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the >> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >> circumstances >> doesn't seem right. >> Sorry for the rant. >> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>> happen again. >>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>> be the darling of >>> >>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>> chapters and >>> >>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >>> up in >>> >>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >>> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>> withmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>>> is not occurring. >>>> >>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>>> diverse. I also >>>> >>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>>> they have >>>> >>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>> transgendered people. >>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>> announcement and >>>> >>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>> social purposes. >>>> >>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>> changes >>>> >>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>> what happens. >>>> Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>> multipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>> help them with. >>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Joe and others, >>>>> >>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>> >>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>> having >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>>> for us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>>> training. >>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>> education. >>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>> >>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>> >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >> is >> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>> 0visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>>> .com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> 40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 14:44:54 -0500 >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> Message-ID: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> >> Hi everyone, >> I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred percent >> agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ services for >> the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with blindness. >> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental illness. I >> agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and them not >> understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how mental illness >> might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of misunderstanding with >> blindness profesionals not understanding how mental illness might interfere >> with living on one's own getting a standard full time job ETC and so their >> scope of services don't allow for anything outside what they perceive to be >> normal. >> I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is a >> very >> close knit community and we all support each other day to day with these >> struggles, providing encouragement and resources if possible and most of >> all >> just our friendship. >> Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric clinic >> and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know anthing about >> this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a contact person as >> I'd be very curious to know more about the program and how they do >> things. >> >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree >> described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted >> and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship. >> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will not >> take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them >> because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man to >> woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a >> guy >> from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up >> and >> take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us from >> marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of >> Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be >> complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound >> harsh. >> Beth >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Hello all, >> >> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may >> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those >> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to >> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >> people, >> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish >> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with >> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the >> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but >> I'm >> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed >> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's >> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive >> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but >> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >> >> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> unitarian >> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than >> the >> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, >> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not >> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even >> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know >> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent >> part of convention? >> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would >> hate >> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend >> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the >> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >> circumstances >> doesn't seem right. >> Sorry for the rant. >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen >> again. >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they >> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions >> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling >> of >> >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters >> and >> >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what >> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of >> backing the wrong person. >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up >> in >> >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of >> the federation. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like >> that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely understand >> the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special interest. >> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should >> constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car >> enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an LGBT >> group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want >> LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious >> invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever >> even been polled about whether to keep having these religious invocations? >> In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we really >> need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what >> kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a >> division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can >> probably >> be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping >> up >> a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would have >> been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that >> wasn't supported. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >> But the >> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >> occurring. >> >> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse >> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I >> also >> >> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they >> have >> >> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people. >> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement >> and >> >> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >> purposes. >> >> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >> changes >> >> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what >> happens. >> Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> multipledisabilities? >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue that's >> come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also >> have >> other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with >> additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the >> number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting >> educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that, >> for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to >> the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think >> that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when we >> think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental >> illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but >> especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to >> stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I >> can >> see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or >> chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks >> who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the >> ups >> and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly >> creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting >> lost. >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment, >> education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just blindness, >> but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups within >> the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, >> but >> I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard >> about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes >> sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd >> want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has >> not been formed. >> I >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> exist >> because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't been >> enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such >> divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain >> leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a >> vehicle >> for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups >> specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I >> hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you >> about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While >> there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to >> be >> elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Joe and others, >> >> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >> is >> wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect >> so >> our creations are not likely going >> >> to >> be perfect. Still, some of what one >> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >> expansion >> that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to >> raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that >> this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and >> then >> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that >> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I >> completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation >> alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of >> emphasis >> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >> accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it >> isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all >> by itself. >> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that >> is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a >> car, >> although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. >> However, I >> got >> very excited about the fact that as a >> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >> of >> getting information that had not been explored before. A significant >> portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was >> something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up >> a >> KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the >> content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended >> science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been >> able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and >> major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now >> if we hadn't tried it. >> >> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >> point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't >> know >> for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. >> Frankly, >> I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as >> one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can >> eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get >> into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS >> product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? >> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a >> reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a >> computer screen instead of having >> >> to >> educate every person who writes >> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us >> >> to >> control the Google self-driving cars >> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >> some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I >> do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were >> in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed >> above, >> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. >> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, >> what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm >> not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and >> must >> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. >> >> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >> won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes >> imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such >> training >> based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >> challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what >> is >> addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our >> other >> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that >> you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just >> one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> Legislating >> that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based >> upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we >> don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that >> much if we don't get a good basic education. >> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >> there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one >> thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't >> see >> any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >> complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it >> is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how >> our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >> challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more >> important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that >> outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I >> think >> our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is >> what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that >> branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We >> need the help of all members, though, to handle change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> Arielle, >> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >> Joe, >> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my >> own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's >> history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving >> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >> cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think >> the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors >> of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in >> a >> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when >> those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with >> political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, >> and more still within our local chapters. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> Braille >> Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the >> increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national >> convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors and >> prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on >> philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the >> like. >> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now, >> and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a >> decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources. >> So >> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a loss >> of programs and resources. >> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly shameful. I >> do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because >> they >> perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle >> choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is >> reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all >> organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially >> sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real lack >> of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and >> was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt completely >> accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage >> prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a >> different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >> But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the >> organization. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >> wrote: >> Hello all. >> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> Thanks. >> Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >> RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >> was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >> company >> >> of >> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership >> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >> spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >> with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >> that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. >> I >> found >> it >> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >> of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >> more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called >> friends from whom >> >> I >> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> fundraising campaigns. >> >> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts >> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >> scope. >> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >> the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >> blood >> and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >> resources we've already had. >> >> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> professionals. >> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >> be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >> when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >> much of >> >> a >> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >> to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >> to >> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >> incapable of sustaining. >> >> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >> >> it >> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what >> I >> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >> guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >> the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >> your >> own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >> give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >> always had >> >> to >> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >> will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >> this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >> is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >> Whether >> or >> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it >> to >> exist. >> >> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >> happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. >> The >> few >> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> lesson in financial management to you. >> >> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >> never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >> provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >> through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have >> no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >> couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >> greater our strength. >> >> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >> the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >> answer >> the original question, my answer would be this: >> >> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >> and >> wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >> ndefur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >> le%40frontier.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >> 40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >> n%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >> 07%40comcast.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:06:52 -0600 >> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> Message-ID: >> > YeX5TK22OW8zapRap11moBS5JZeNg55Dw at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division >> could work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division >> that is led by blind people with mental illness. >> Arielle >> >>> On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >>> Hi everyone, >>> I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred percent >>> agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ services >> for >>> the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with >> blindness. >>> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental illness. >> I >>> agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and them not >>> understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how mental illness >>> might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of misunderstanding with >>> blindness profesionals not understanding how mental illness might >> interfere >>> with living on one's own getting a standard full time job ETC and so >> their >>> scope of services don't allow for anything outside what they perceive to >> be >>> normal. >>> I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >>> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is a >>> very >>> close knit community and we all support each other day to day with these >>> struggles, providing encouragement and resources if possible and most of >>> all >>> just our friendship. >>> Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric clinic >>> and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know anthing about >>> this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a contact person >> as >>> I'd be very curious to know more about the program and how they do >>> things. >>> >>> Sam >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >> Taurasi >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree >>> described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted >>> and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship. >>> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will >> not >>> take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them >>> because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man >> to >>> woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a >>> guy >>> from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up >>> and >>> take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us >> from >>> marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of >>> Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would >> be >>> complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound >>> harsh. >>> Beth >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >> may >>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those >>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to >>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >>> people, >>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish >>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally >> with >>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from >> the >>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have >> phrased >>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>> >>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but >>> I'm >>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle >> pointed >>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, >> it's >>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive >>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, >> but >>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >>> >>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>> unitarian >>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than >>> the >>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, >>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was >> not >>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even >>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know >>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent >>> part of convention? >>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would >>> hate >>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to >> pretend >>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve >> the >>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >>> circumstances >>> doesn't seem right. >>> Sorry for the rant. >>> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> happen >>> again. >>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they >>> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> devisions >>> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling >>> of >>> >>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters >>> and >>> >>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what >>> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of >>> backing the wrong person. >>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >> up >>> in >>> >>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >> of >>> the federation. Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>> withmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like >>> that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> understand >>> the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special >> interest. >>> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should >>> constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car >>> enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an >> LGBT >>> group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want >>> LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious >>> invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever >>> even been polled about whether to keep having these religious >> invocations? >>> In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects >> the >>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> really >>> need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what >>> kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a >>> division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can >>> probably >>> be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping >>> up >>> a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would >> have >>> been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that >>> wasn't supported. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >>> But the >>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >>> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >>> occurring. >>> >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >> diverse >>> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I >>> also >>> >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they >>> have >>> >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >>> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >>> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >> people. >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement >>> and >>> >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >>> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >>> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >>> purposes. >>> >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> changes >>> >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >> what >>> happens. >>> Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> multipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> that's >>> come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also >>> have >>> other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with >>> additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the >>> number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting >>> educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think >> that, >>> for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training >> to >>> the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think >>> that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate >> the >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> we >>> think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental >>> illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but >>> especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to >>> stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I >>> can >>> see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or >>> chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks >>> who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the >>> ups >>> and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly >>> creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting >>> lost. >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment, >>> education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> blindness, >>> but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups >> within >>> the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, >>> but >>> I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard >>> about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes >>> sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns >> they'd >>> want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has >>> not been formed. >>> I >>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>> exist >>> because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't >> been >>> enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such >>> divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain >>> leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a >>> vehicle >>> for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups >>> specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on >> blindness. I >>> hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from >> you >>> about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While >>> there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to >>> be >>> elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >>> is >>> wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect >>> so >>> our creations are not likely going >>> >>> to >>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >>> expansion >>> that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have >> to >>> raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing >> that >>> this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and >>> then >>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >> that >>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I >>> completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that >> the >>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >> feel >>> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >> legislation >>> alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of >>> emphasis >>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it >>> isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, >> all >>> by itself. >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >> that >>> is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a >>> car, >>> although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. >>> However, I >>> got >>> very excited about the fact that as a >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>> of >>> getting information that had not been explored before. A significant >>> portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was >>> something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held >> up >>> a >>> KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >>> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the >>> content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >> attended >>> science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have >> been >>> able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, >> and >>> major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of >> this >>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >> now >>> if we hadn't tried it. >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >>> point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't >>> know >>> for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. >>> Frankly, >>> I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as >>> one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can >>> eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get >>> into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS >>> product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? >>> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a >>> reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a >>> computer screen instead of having >>> >>> to >>> educate every person who writes >>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for >> us >>> >>> to >>> control the Google self-driving cars >>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >>> some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. >> What I >>> do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we >> were >>> in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed >>> above, >>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. >>> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. >> Joe, >>> what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. >> I'm >>> not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and >>> must >>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >>> won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes >>> imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such >>> training >>> based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties >> and >>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what >>> is >>> addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our >>> other >>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >> that >>> you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >> just >>> one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>> Legislating >>> that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based >>> upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if >> we >>> don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all >> that >>> much if we don't get a good basic education. >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >>> there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any >> one >>> thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't >>> see >>> any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >>> complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, >> it >>> is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and >> how >>> our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address >> the >>> challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more >>> important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that >>> outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I >>> think >>> our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions >> is >>> what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that >>> branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We >>> need the help of all members, though, to handle change. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>> Arielle, >>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>> Joe, >>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >> my >>> own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's >>> history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has >> moving >>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I >> think >>> the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and >> mirrors >>> of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >> in >>> a >>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though >> when >>> those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with >>> political power are treated with hostility by some at the national >> level, >>> and more still within our local chapters. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille >>> Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the >>> increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national >>> convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors >> and >>> prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on >>> philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the >>> like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now, >>> and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a >>> decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources. >>> So >>> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a >> loss >>> of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> shameful. I >>> do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because >>> they >>> perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle >>> choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is >>> reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all >>> organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially >>> sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real >> lack >>> of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again, >> is >>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and >>> was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt >> completely >>> accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage >>> prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a >>> different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance >> there. >>> But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in >> the >>> organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >>> wrote: >>> Hello all. >>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >> life, >>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>> Thanks. >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >> mailing >>> list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >> without >>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>> RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>> was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>> company >>> >>> of >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >> leadership >>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>> spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>> with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>> >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>> that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. >>> I >>> found >>> it >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >> dose >>> of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >> generating >>> more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called >>> friends from whom >>> >>> I >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>> fundraising campaigns. >>> >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >> the >>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> efforts >>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>> scope. >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >> or >>> the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>> blood >>> and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>> resources we've already had. >>> >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>> professionals. >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >> will >>> be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >> the >>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>> when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>> much of >>> >>> a >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>> to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >> NFB >>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>> to >>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>> incapable of sustaining. >>> >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >> want >>> >>> it >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what >>> I >>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >> of >>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>> guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and >> leave >>> the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>> your >>> own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>> give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>> always had >>> >>> to >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>> will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>> this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the >> NFB >>> is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>> Whether >>> or >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it >>> to >>> exist. >>> >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >> I've >>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>> happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. >>> The >>> few >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>> lesson in financial management to you. >>> >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>> never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>> provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming >> up >>> through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you >> have >>> no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>> couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of >> you >>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>> greater our strength. >>> >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>> the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>> answer >>> the original question, my answer would be this: >>> >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >> consume >>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>> and >>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>> ndefur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>> le%40frontier.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >>> n%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >>> 07%40comcast.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:12:47 -0600 >> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >> Message-ID: >> < >> CALAYQJAwXBGM9vQqw2ouMGs8+Aed6Crq2TXznjDU7KsSAOWxNw at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy >> itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" >> mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also >> historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind >> including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal >> position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've >> picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and >> pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in >> addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. >> In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent >> years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think >> the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual >> approach of empowering blind people while also making environments >> more hospitable for us. >> >> Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on >> themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the >> old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often >> stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are >> today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider >> (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out >> to other blind people for help. >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >>> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. >>> Great point Ashley. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> Kaiti, >>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions >> too. >>> >>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy >>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on >>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is >>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; >>> get >>> a job. >>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you >> can >>> be financially independent through other means with out the job. >>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances >>> who >>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes >> a >>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is >> doing >>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like >>> raisers edge. >>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your >> bootstraps >>> with no outside help. >>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and >> ACB >>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these >>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. >> Things >>> may change soon. >>> >>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope >> this >>> does not happen again. >>> >>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >>> disability groups. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >> may >>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those >>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to >>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >>> people, >>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish >>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally >> with >>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from >> the >>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have >> phrased >>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>> >>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but >>> I'm >>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle >> pointed >>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, >> it's >>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive >>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, >> but >>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >>> >>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>> unitarian >>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than >>> the >>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, >>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was >> not >>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even >>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know >>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent >>> part of convention? >>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would >>> hate >>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to >> pretend >>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve >> the >>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >>> circumstances >>> doesn't seem right. >>> Sorry for the rant. >>> >>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>>> happen again. >>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>>> be the darling of >>>> >>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>>> chapters and >>>> >>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >>>> up in >>>> >>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>>> withmultipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> >>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>>>> is not occurring. >>>>> >>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>>>> diverse. I also >>>>> >>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>>>> they have >>>>> >>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>>> transgendered people. >>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>>> announcement and >>>>> >>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>>> social purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>>> changes >>>>> >>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>>> what happens. >>>>> Have a blessed day. >>>>> Best Wishes >>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>>> multipledisabilities? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>>> help them with. >>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>> Joe and others, >>>>>> >>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>>> >>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>>> having >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>>>> for us >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>>>> training. >>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>>> education. >>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>>> >>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >>>>>>>> is >>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>>> 0visi.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >> . >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:24:23 -0500 >> From: "Sam Nelson" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> Message-ID: <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> >> Hi Ariel, >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which is >> such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> >> I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could >> work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is led >> by blind people with mental illness. >> Arielle >> >> On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >>> Hi everyone, >>> I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >>> percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ >>> services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along >> with blindness. >>> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >>> illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and >>> them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >>> mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >>> misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >>> mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >>> standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow >>> for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >>> I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >>> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is >>> a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day >>> with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >>> possible and most of all just our friendship. >>> Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >>> clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >>> anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a >>> contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program >>> and how they do things. >>> >>> Sam >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>> Taurasi >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >>> Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >>> they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that >> guardianship. >>> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >>> will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case >>> against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects >>> lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >>> with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, >>> I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But >>> alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >>> persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" >>> is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if >>> such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >>> Beth >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >>> may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >>> those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >>> without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >>> starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >>> huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >>> working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >>> same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then >>> we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with >>> that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >>> organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it >>> better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>> >>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >>> but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >>> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the >>> car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >>> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is >>> purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather >>> than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people >>> who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >>> that just doesn't make sense. >>> >>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself >>> at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are >>> more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't >>> always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important >>> that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had >>> any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >>> Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this >>> light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? >>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >>> would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >>> minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >>> greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are >>> less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit >>> their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >>> Sorry for the rant. >>> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>> happen again. >>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>> be the darling of >>> >>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>> chapters and >>> >>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >>> grew up in >>> >>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >>> darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>> withmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> special interest. >>> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >>> should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >>> division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then >>> not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't >>> try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >>> controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general >>> sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about whether >> to keep having these religious invocations? >>> In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects >>> the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >>> But the >>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the >>> under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >>> occurring. >>> >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>> diverse. I also >>> >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>> they have >>> >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together >>> and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >> people. >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>> announcement and >>> >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >>> purposes. >>> >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> changes >>> >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>> what happens. >>> Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> multipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help >> them with. >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >>> I >>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> Joe and others, >>> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>> >>> to >>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >>> expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we >>> used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >>> supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our >>> budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as >>> you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are >>> not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>> legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >>> contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >>> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >>> legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is >>> a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force >>> software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is >>> necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>> at some point. >>> However, I >>> got >>> very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >>> problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information >>> that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >>> budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>> reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >>> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the >>> content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >>> attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. >>> We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >>> lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >>> couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this >>> would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>> difference. >>> Frankly, >>> I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work >>> as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can >>> eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids >>> get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the >>> new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB >> reader? >>> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a >>> reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software >>> on a computer screen instead of having >>> >>> to >>> educate every person who writes >>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>> for us >>> >>> to >>> control the Google self-driving cars >>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >>> least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really >>> say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >>> organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on >>> some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. >>> But it also means that we change. >>> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. >>> Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of >>> change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >>> an organization. >>> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a >>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated >>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have >>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>> Legislating >>> that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate >>> based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter >>> much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't >>> matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>> Arielle, >>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>> Joe, >>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >>> organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >>> organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >>> high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >>> who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to >>> discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >>> isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less >>> willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >>> still within our local chapters. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>> drawings and the like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> sources. >>> So >>> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a >>> loss of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >>> But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in >>> the organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >>> wrote: >>> Hello all. >>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>> Thanks. >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >> mentoor. >>> RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>> I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in >>> the company >>> >>> of >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>> a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>> a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>> real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >>> attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the >>> weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited >>> to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >>> through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent >> gatherings. >>> >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it >>> needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>> disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen >>> to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or >> that >> effort. >>> I >>> found >>> it >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>> dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps >>> the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >>> so-called friends from whom >>> >>> I >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>> fundraising campaigns. >>> >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>> the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>> efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >>> national in scope. >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>> >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>> professionals. >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>> will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they >>> shun the organization because they were turned away or because they >>> were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have >>> kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >>> organization. I had too much of >>> >>> a >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could >>> have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >>> important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>> sustaining. >>> >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>> want >>> >>> it >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>> verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner >>> will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >>> organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>> >>> to >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>> I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >>> reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world >>> where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen >> to that. >>> Whether >>> or >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>> it to exist. >>> >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>> I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >>> seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our >> camp. >>> The >>> few >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>> lesson in financial management to you. >>> >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of >>> leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste >>> the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher >>> who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I >>> want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to >>> do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >>> >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>> be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt >>> to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>> >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what >>> will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>> ndefur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>> le%40frontier.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >>> n%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>> t104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >>> 07%40comcast.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >>> on.net >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 10 >> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:54:14 -0500 >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> As a person involved some in technology, could you explain more about >> Razor's Edge and which companies are using >> it that you have encountered? If you look at the myriad of accessibility >> issues, it is hard to know how to >> prioritize them. Unfortunately, many issues do not fall cleanly under >> existing laws. What I mean by cleanly is >> that laws may apply in such a borderline fashion that getting a positive >> decision is unlikely. I am >> oversimplifying this some, but to a large degree there is no law >> preventing companies from producing inaccessible >> software. Where are lever has been is in affecting software by making it >> illegal or at least harder to have >> governmental entities buy it. In some cases we have been successful when >> a private business had an inaccessible >> web site but their web site was used to enhance the experience at a public >> location. This whole area of >> accessibility to websites and software on the job is not well defined >> legally at all. I know that the >> International Braille and Technology Center works with many companies all >> the time and an attempt has been made to >> publicize the efforts of companies who have made their software >> accessible. There needs to be a ton of work done >> on this yet and in some cases, there is not much that can be done legally. >> If you have brought Razor's Edge to >> the national Office and they have told you it isn't important enough to >> work on, I would be very surprised. >> However, there are a number of reasons why it might not be that easy to >> correct very quickly including the good >> old "reasonable effort" and "Undo Burden" language in many laws. >> >> Would you say more about this? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >>> Kaiti, >>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions >> too. >>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy >>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on >>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is >>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; >> get >>> a job. >>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you >> can >>> be financially independent through other means with out the job. >>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances >> who >>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a >>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is >> doing >>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like >>> raisers edge. >>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps >>> with no outside help. >>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and >> ACB >>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these >>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things >>> may change soon. >> >>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope >> this >>> does not happen again. >> >>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >>> disability groups. >> >>> Ashley >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >>> Hello all, >> >>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may >>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those >>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to >>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >> people, >>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish >>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with >>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from >> the >>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but >> I'm >>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed >>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, >> it's >>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive >>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, >> but >>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >> >>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> unitarian >>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than >> the >>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, >>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was >> not >>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even >>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know >>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent >>> part of convention? >>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would >> hate >>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to >> pretend >>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve >> the >>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >> circumstances >>> doesn't seem right. >>> Sorry for the rant. >> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>>> happen again. >>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>>> be the darling of >>>> >>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>>> chapters and >>>> >>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >>>> up in >>>> >>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>>> withmultipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> >>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>>>> is not occurring. >>>>> >>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>>>> diverse. I also >>>>> >>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>>>> they have >>>>> >>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>>> transgendered people. >>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>>> announcement and >>>>> >>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>>> social purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>>> changes >>>>> >>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>>> what happens. >>>>> Have a blessed day. >>>>> Best Wishes >>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>>> multipledisabilities? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>>> help them with. >>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>> Joe and others, >>>>>> >>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>>> >>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>>> having >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>>>> for us >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>>>> training. >>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>>> education. >>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>>> >>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >> is >>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>>> 0visi.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >> >> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink >> . >>> net >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 90, Issue 5 >> ************************************* >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From musicproandy at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 03:10:03 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:10:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought I'd chime in here. Arielle, you say: "Some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no other disabilities." If this is true, I'm baffled as to why NFB is not using this approach for lobbying. Every article I've ever seen has discussed multiple disabilities. I think the NFB would have a stronger argument if they could find people with blindness as the only disability, and could procure evidence that they were, essentially, being exploited. I read an article, for instance, about a woman with cerebral palsy and blindness. The highest paycheck she earned was somewhere around $18. I've read many other such articles that detail similar cases. You also say that productivity is subjective. I certainly agree. However, according to various articles, companies have been performing tests to try and find an acceptable salary based on the capabilities of the employees at their specific jobs. I would argue that employers are doing the best they can with the employees they have working for them. In one article I read, for instance, a woman's job was to hang clothes. Her salary was adjusted based on how well she did the job - essentially, her productivity. Finally, you mention companies having prejudiced attitudes towards the disabled. I disagree. If these certificates were declared unlawful, then, from a business perspective, the only option is to lay off the employees. If an employee makes, say, an average of only a few pennies per hour, paying that employee the federal (or state) minimum wage is an exponential increase in their salary. This is obviously fantastic news for the employees; however, the business can't possibly sustain that model. Thus, the only option is to lay off the employees. I'm failing to understand how this helps them in any significant way; indeed, I would argue that, without a job, they would surely be hurting. On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Mike, > > I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short > answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are > blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee > can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental > disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can > be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, > the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the > disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled > employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum > wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum > wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled > and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive > enough. > > I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent > out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with > developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage > or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend > that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on > their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. > > Arielle > > On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB >> is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to >> me. >> >> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >> job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as >> cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty >> clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. >> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times >> more than you were paying them for the same amount of >> work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. >> >> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >> they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them >> from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these >> people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their >> lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right >> now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. >> >> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it >> seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the >> employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't >> make sense. >> >> Mike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Apr 3 03:16:34 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 20:16:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <27E6E8FD-D6B1-4C61-9917-2324C76D7E8D@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> <27E6E8FD-D6B1-4C61-9917-2324C76D7E8D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140402201308.01ffddf0@comcast.net> Good evening, Antonio, Very well said! So often, the Federation seems to assign its laborers the impossible. So, you haven't been back to a youth slam? Can't say as though I really blame you if they're gonna treat you like that. How ya doin', Antonio? loving for today, CarAt 04:46 PM 4/2/2014, you wrote: >Hi all, > >It's hard talking about many things I see happening in the Nfb >without turning into somewhat of a griping session. > >I have come a little bit late to this thread, as sometimes happens. >This is one example of what has been already said. Life goes on >with, or without the Nfb. Life goes on whether or not I read or >respond to messages from this list. > >I am happy to be here, reading, and responding though. > >The Youth Slam was but one example of how the Nfb does things too big. > >We held three of those events. The membership was responsible for >recruiting students, mentoring them, sometimes taking care of their >physical, and emotional needs. > >The first use slam was a realization of one of Betsi Zabarowski's >dreams. She said as much in presentations to the group. > >We had over 250 blind students and mentors at the event. > >I don't care how you slice it, blindness does add certain challenges >to run an event that large. > >I got tired and stressed as a mentor in the Youth Slam. We were out >of the college dorms by 7 A.M. and some times back at 10:00 P.M. > >I got no relief from people who were actually recruited, and served >in the event as "Quote "relief Mentors," unquote. > >It was go, go, go for several days. > >I see the Youth Slam as a reflection of the organization itself. It >is a gathering of mostly NFB leaders, and dedicated members >mentoring bright, and excited teens. > >I feel mentors were treated more or less as hands on deck. We were >there to do the dirty work of running the program, and the structure >of hierarchy did very much look like a top down approach. > >The slam was in many ways a great event, but it was all a thankless >job. I left exhausted, and vowing not to return at a future one, >should they hold one. > >I found myself volunteering to the 2011 Youth Slam, the last one held so far. > >Not much changed since four years before. I saw, and heard of enough >cases where mentors were saked to quote, "act as mentors," unquote. >this was to mean they were to act in an NFB way. Show independence at any cost. > >Here's another example of what I said on list once before: We preach >much, but some times don't follow our own message. > >Explicit displays of public independence sounds a lot like >rebellious independence to me. > >Consider the supposed scenario of a mentor who helps her student, >her mentee,, to a table, and assists in some way with getting that >student's tray safely and quickly to the table. > >Imagine that a person on the paid NFB Youth Slam staff sees this >happen. the staff person in this scenario would most likely >reprimand the mentor for taking independence out of the hands of the >student. the mentor would have been lectured, and made to feel as if >she had to make every single interaction with student to be a teaching moment. > >If the mentor did as expected, and teach the student to carry her >tray while using the cane, time would run out, and the student, >mentor, and pod, small group of four slam participants, would still >be reprimanded. this time the crime would have been the slow >progress through the lunch. > >It was dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. > >this story is one I made up. It is similar to the type of pressure >we all faced. It may have happened, and more than once. The point I >am making is that behind this story is a philosophy of militancy we >are accused of displaying in the NFB. > >We may want to be tolerant. We may even be inclusive, but there are >clear instances when people are encouraged to stay quiet, especially >if one is not to quote "support the programs and policies of the >Federation." Unquote. > >I will most likely chime in on this thread again. I don't want to >run on from topic to topic, so see you on another post. > >Antonio > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Apr 3 03:35:51 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:35:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people withmultipledisabilities? In-Reply-To: References: <8D540B25A8FF4C99BE744FF4BC8094FD@HP30910210001> <0FE0AFDBB30D4E6A8A13DB68C26EEBA4@HP30910210001> Message-ID: Aside from helping to pass legislation there are other benefits to talking with people with other disabilities. For one, we can learn from them and them from us. As a blind person, there are certain courtesies such as speaking to me that not everyone is aware of. We could show them what is helpful for us and they could show us what is helpful to them. This correspondence could also serve as a place to ask questions that we may otherwise may feel uncomfortable asking such as if you cannot hear or see how can you use a computer. It could also help with learning new self advocacy techniques and in general increase general happiness with blindness. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 1, 2014, at 10:30 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hello all, > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, > that just doesn't make sense. > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > Sorry for the rant. > >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen >> again. >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they >> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions >> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling of >> >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters and >> >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what >> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of >> backing the wrong person. >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up in >> >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of >> the federation. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the >>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under >>> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >>> occurring. >>> >>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse >>> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I >>> also >>> >>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they >>> have >>> >>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to >>> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and >>> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >>> people. >>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement >>> and >>> >>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the >>> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the >>> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >>> purposes. >>> >>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> changes >>> >>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what >>> happens. >>> Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> multipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>> help them with. >>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I >>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> Joe and others, >>>> >>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative >>>> is >>>> wrong. Organizations are made up of >>>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely >>>> going >>>> >>>> to >>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >>>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >>>> more >>>> funds than we used to have to raise. I >>>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is >>>> a >>>> risk. When you look at our budget and >>>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, >>>> it >>>> is certainly clear that legislative >>>> successes are not >>>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>>> legislation >>>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >>>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >>>> feel >>>> particularly more so now that our >>>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take >>>> accessibility, >>>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >>>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >>>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >>>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>> limits >>>> of current technology and explore ways >>>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited >>>> about >>>> being able to drive a car, although I >>>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I >>>> got >>>> very excited about the fact that as a >>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>>> of >>>> getting information that had not been >>>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB >>>> reader. At the time, it was something >>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>>> reader to the lists of registered people at >>>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >>>> start to read the content. There have >>>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of >>>> one >>>> kind or another through our efforts. We >>>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >>>> teachers, and major players in the >>>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or >>>> 90's, >>>> and much of this would not have been >>>> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>>> >>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >>>> point is that a lot of this is about risks >>>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these >>>> efforts >>>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >>>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one >>>> learns >>>> from what does, because if you make a >>>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >>>> thousand kids get into math or science >>>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little >>>> better >>>> because of what we did with the KNFB >>>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >>>> see >>>> a reader that could use artificial >>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>> having >>>> >>>> to >>>> educate every person who writes >>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for >>>> us >>>> >>>> to >>>> control the Google self-driving cars >>>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >>>> some of the answers are yes, but at this >>>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic >>>> grass >>>> roots organization that we were in the >>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor >>>> was >>>> it the right time for that. But it >>>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes >>>> as >>>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >>>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not >>>> satisfied >>>> to say that it has to be that way, >>>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >>>> an >>>> organization. >>>> >>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers >>>> won't >>>> miraculously make life better, and >>>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >>>> conclusions about such training based >>>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >>>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >>>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >>>> Minnesota and I assume by our other >>>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea >>>> that >>>> you have to have a set of tools to >>>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do >>>> more >>>> than run people through training. >>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating >>>> that software must be accessible and that >>>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, >>>> but >>>> it won't matter much if we don't have >>>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if >>>> we >>>> don't get a good basic education. >>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >>>> there are no braille instructors in a >>>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead >>>> to >>>> success by itself, and you can't see any >>>> given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>> >>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >>>> complex challenges we face with a larger >>>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >>>> understand where we are going and how our >>>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >>>> challenges of the world and what do we need >>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >>>> asking questions like that outside of this >>>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >>>> understanding of asking for help and looking for >>>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >>>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >>>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >>>> members, though, to handle change. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>> >>>>> Joe, >>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>>>> my >>>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >>>> potential the organization has moving >>>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >>>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >>>> who >>>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >>>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >>>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line >>>> and >>>> pander to those with political power >>>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still >>>> within our local chapters. >>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>>> life, >>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>> list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>> without >>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>>> dose >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>> generating >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>> top, >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>>> resources >>>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>>> verge >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> guide >>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>> excel >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>>> greater >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>> consume >>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From michaeldforzano at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 03:50:19 2014 From: michaeldforzano at gmail.com (Michael Forzano) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 20:50:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Arielle, I agree with everything Andy said. I also read the article you mentioned. What Wallgreen's is doing is great. However, it seems that the people they hire are either capable of doing the job productively or being trained to do so. It mentions people with behavioral issues that would normally not be permitted in the workplace and how they are making exceptions for that, which again, is really a great thing. I don't think it proves that it makes business sense to employ people who actually are unable to do the job even close to as well as the employees paid minimum wage, though. Mike On 4/2/14, Andy wrote: > I thought I'd chime in here. > Arielle, you say: > "Some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no > other disabilities." > If this is true, I'm baffled as to why NFB is not using this approach > for lobbying. Every article I've ever seen has discussed multiple > disabilities. I think the NFB would have a stronger argument if they > could find people with blindness as the only disability, and could > procure evidence that they were, essentially, being exploited. I read > an article, for instance, about a woman with cerebral palsy and > blindness. The highest paycheck she earned was somewhere around $18. > I've read many other such articles that detail similar cases. > > You also say that productivity is subjective. I certainly agree. > However, according to various articles, companies have been performing > tests to try and find an acceptable salary based on the capabilities > of the employees at their specific jobs. I would argue that employers > are doing the best they can with the employees they have working for > them. In one article I read, for instance, a woman's job was to hang > clothes. Her salary was adjusted based on how well she did the job - > essentially, her productivity. > > Finally, you mention companies having prejudiced attitudes towards the > disabled. I disagree. If these certificates were declared unlawful, > then, from a business perspective, the only option is to lay off the > employees. If an employee makes, say, an average of only a few > pennies per hour, paying that employee the federal (or state) minimum > wage is an exponential increase in their salary. This is obviously > fantastic news for the employees; however, the business can't possibly > sustain that model. Thus, the only option is to lay off the > employees. I'm failing to understand how this helps them in any > significant way; indeed, I would argue that, without a job, they would > surely be hurting. > > > On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> >> I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short >> answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are >> blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee >> can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental >> disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can >> be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, >> the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the >> disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled >> employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum >> wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum >> wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled >> and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive >> enough. >> >> I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent >> out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with >> developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage >> or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend >> that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on >> their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB >>> is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to >>> me. >>> >>> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >>> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >>> job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as >>> cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty >>> clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. >>> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times >>> more than you were paying them for the same amount of >>> work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. >>> >>> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >>> they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them >>> from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these >>> people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their >>> lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right >>> now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. >>> >>> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it >>> seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the >>> employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't >>> make sense. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michaeldforzano%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:05:03 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 22:05:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andy and all, First, the article you describe about the employees hanging clothes referred to Sheila Lieglande and her husband (don't recall his name). The article did not mention any disabilities besides blindness. I actually know Sheila from another NFB list, and I know that she and her blind husband have successfully raised a son on their own. So even if they do have additional disabilities, if they are capable of parenting a child to adulthood without outside intervention, then I would contend they should be capable of attaining minimum-wage or higher employment and being supported toward that goal. Sheila's story seems to be one example of a high-functioning person who is being paid subminimum wage (and many folks with both blindness and CP can be quite high-functioning). I suspect the NFB is focusing on all disabilities because partnering with other disability groups brings a lot more attention to the issue and makes it a much broader one than just focusing on the blind. Second, I could write a novel about the fallacy of those productivity tests, but instead of doing that let me try to argue against their use as concisely as I can. I would first ask why disabled employees are being tested in this manner while non-disabled employees are not? If all employees were paid according to their score on productivity tests, I suspect that overall wages would decrease and a good chunk of our labor force would make less than minimum wage. The very act of holding an entire group of people to a different standard because of a characteristic they have, like a disability, is the definition of prejudice and discrimination. Sometimes discrimination is justified, but I don't think there is clear evidence that disabled people, as a whole, are less productive than those without disabilities; in fact some would argue the opposite. Proponents of subminimum wages seem to assume a priori that disabled employees are less productive, but without subjecting all employees to productivity tests, we really don't know. Moreover, there are a myriad of psychological reasons why employees might perform worse on a timed test than they would in a real employment situation. Finally, there are probably a lot of disabled people who are not very productive in assembly-line kinds of jobs, but who would be tremendously productive if they were able to find jobs that better fit their particular skills and interests. I suspect that if the only job I was encouraged to do was hang clothes or tune pianos, I wouldn't be very productive at those things because those just aren't things I'm personally good at. There are some other things I'm much better at and I'm grateful that I had people in my life encouraging me to get an education and develop the skills and interests I do have. For people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, often their "productivity" is artificially set by guardians and others in their lives rather than by their own aptitudes. A disabled child might be perfectly capable of walking, but if doctors tell their parents they won't walk and the parents never provide the support they need to walk, they won't walk. The same process can play out in employment and, tragically, often does. Again, please read the article about Walgreens. It shows that a company who made the investment to pay its disabled employees equal wages did not have to lay off anyone and in fact is expanding its model to include more disabled employees after they proved themselves and their productivity. I used to have a more moderate position about subminimum wages, but I read a couple of very compelling posts from NABS president Sean Whalen that convinced me to take a more extreme stance. Sean was paid $4 per hour at a summer job just because he is blind, without other disabilities. I have known Sean personally for several years and can promise you he was and is perfectly capable of contributing at a level equal to his sighted peers. He is now a Harvard law student. I will find one of his posts in the archives and forward it along because he addresses the economic side of the issue better than I possibly can. There are many many people with multiple disabilities who may not be as articulate as Sean is but who still deserve the dignity of a guaranteed minimum wage that the rest of the public gets. Sadly, in many cases their parents and guardians buy into the notion that these disabled people cannot be as productive and that subminimum wage is their only option for employment. It is long past time to change that. Arielle On 4/2/14, Andy wrote: > I thought I'd chime in here. > Arielle, you say: > "Some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no > other disabilities." > If this is true, I'm baffled as to why NFB is not using this approach > for lobbying. Every article I've ever seen has discussed multiple > disabilities. I think the NFB would have a stronger argument if they > could find people with blindness as the only disability, and could > procure evidence that they were, essentially, being exploited. I read > an article, for instance, about a woman with cerebral palsy and > blindness. The highest paycheck she earned was somewhere around $18. > I've read many other such articles that detail similar cases. > > You also say that productivity is subjective. I certainly agree. > However, according to various articles, companies have been performing > tests to try and find an acceptable salary based on the capabilities > of the employees at their specific jobs. I would argue that employers > are doing the best they can with the employees they have working for > them. In one article I read, for instance, a woman's job was to hang > clothes. Her salary was adjusted based on how well she did the job - > essentially, her productivity. > > Finally, you mention companies having prejudiced attitudes towards the > disabled. I disagree. If these certificates were declared unlawful, > then, from a business perspective, the only option is to lay off the > employees. If an employee makes, say, an average of only a few > pennies per hour, paying that employee the federal (or state) minimum > wage is an exponential increase in their salary. This is obviously > fantastic news for the employees; however, the business can't possibly > sustain that model. Thus, the only option is to lay off the > employees. I'm failing to understand how this helps them in any > significant way; indeed, I would argue that, without a job, they would > surely be hurting. > > > On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> >> I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short >> answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are >> blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee >> can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental >> disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can >> be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, >> the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the >> disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled >> employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum >> wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum >> wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled >> and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive >> enough. >> >> I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent >> out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with >> developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage >> or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend >> that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on >> their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB >>> is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to >>> me. >>> >>> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >>> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >>> job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as >>> cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty >>> clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. >>> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times >>> more than you were paying them for the same amount of >>> work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. >>> >>> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >>> they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them >>> from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these >>> people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their >>> lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right >>> now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. >>> >>> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it >>> seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the >>> employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't >>> make sense. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:11:08 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 22:11:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, How do we know who's able to do the job and who's not? Walgreens employees showed they were able to do the job because Walgreens gave them a chance. Some of them were deemed "unemployable" before Walgreens gave them a chance. If employees are never given a chance how can they possibly prove or demonstrate their productivity? It's possible that Walgreens screens some folks out if they are very severely disabled. Would such folks be offered subminimum wage jobs? Maybe. But I would contend that having a subminimum wage job isn't much better than having a volunteer job, and could perhaps be more degrading. If someone tries for a minimum-wage job but after a trial period proves they can't handle the responsibilities, why not offer them a volunteer unpaid position, or enroll them in an unpaid creative arts program where they can enjoy themselves and develop a real interest they may have? If a subminimum wage isn't enough for any kind of meaningful purchasing or financial independence then what's the point of getting it? Arielle On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Andy and all, > > First, the article you describe about the employees hanging clothes > referred to Sheila Lieglande and her husband (don't recall his name). > The article did not mention any disabilities besides blindness. I > actually know Sheila from another NFB list, and I know that she and > her blind husband have successfully raised a son on their own. So even > if they do have additional disabilities, if they are capable of > parenting a child to adulthood without outside intervention, then I > would contend they should be capable of attaining minimum-wage or > higher employment and being supported toward that goal. Sheila's story > seems to be one example of a high-functioning person who is being paid > subminimum wage (and many folks with both blindness and CP can be > quite high-functioning). I suspect the NFB is focusing on all > disabilities because partnering with other disability groups brings a > lot more attention to the issue and makes it a much broader one than > just focusing on the blind. > > Second, I could write a novel about the fallacy of those productivity > tests, but instead of doing that let me try to argue against their use > as concisely as I can. I would first ask why disabled employees are > being tested in this manner while non-disabled employees are not? If > all employees were paid according to their score on productivity > tests, I suspect that overall wages would decrease and a good chunk of > our labor force would make less than minimum wage. The very act of > holding an entire group of people to a different standard because of a > characteristic they have, like a disability, is the definition of > prejudice and discrimination. Sometimes discrimination is justified, > but I don't think there is clear evidence that disabled people, as a > whole, are less productive than those without disabilities; in fact > some would argue the opposite. Proponents of subminimum wages seem to > assume a priori that disabled employees are less productive, but > without subjecting all employees to productivity tests, we really > don't know. Moreover, there are a myriad of psychological reasons why > employees might perform worse on a timed test than they would in a > real employment situation. Finally, there are probably a lot of > disabled people who are not very productive in assembly-line kinds of > jobs, but who would be tremendously productive if they were able to > find jobs that better fit their particular skills and interests. I > suspect that if the only job I was encouraged to do was hang clothes > or tune pianos, I wouldn't be very productive at those things because > those just aren't things I'm personally good at. There are some other > things I'm much better at and I'm grateful that I had people in my > life encouraging me to get an education and develop the skills and > interests I do have. For people with intellectual and developmental > disabilities, often their "productivity" is artificially set by > guardians and others in their lives rather than by their own > aptitudes. A disabled child might be perfectly capable of walking, but > if doctors tell their parents they won't walk and the parents never > provide the support they need to walk, they won't walk. The same > process can play out in employment and, tragically, often does. > Again, please read the article about Walgreens. It shows that a > company who made the investment to pay its disabled employees equal > wages did not have to lay off anyone and in fact is expanding its > model to include more disabled employees after they proved themselves > and their productivity. > > I used to have a more moderate position about subminimum wages, but I > read a couple of very compelling posts from NABS president Sean Whalen > that convinced me to take a more extreme stance. Sean was paid $4 per > hour at a summer job just because he is blind, without other > disabilities. I have known Sean personally for several years and can > promise you he was and is perfectly capable of contributing at a level > equal to his sighted peers. He is now a Harvard law student. I will > find one of his posts in the archives and forward it along because he > addresses the economic side of the issue better than I possibly can. > There are many many people with multiple disabilities who may not be > as articulate as Sean is but who still deserve the dignity of a > guaranteed minimum wage that the rest of the public gets. Sadly, in > many cases their parents and guardians buy into the notion that these > disabled people cannot be as productive and that subminimum wage is > their only option for employment. It is long past time to change that. > > Arielle > > On 4/2/14, Andy wrote: >> I thought I'd chime in here. >> Arielle, you say: >> "Some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no >> other disabilities." >> If this is true, I'm baffled as to why NFB is not using this approach >> for lobbying. Every article I've ever seen has discussed multiple >> disabilities. I think the NFB would have a stronger argument if they >> could find people with blindness as the only disability, and could >> procure evidence that they were, essentially, being exploited. I read >> an article, for instance, about a woman with cerebral palsy and >> blindness. The highest paycheck she earned was somewhere around $18. >> I've read many other such articles that detail similar cases. >> >> You also say that productivity is subjective. I certainly agree. >> However, according to various articles, companies have been performing >> tests to try and find an acceptable salary based on the capabilities >> of the employees at their specific jobs. I would argue that employers >> are doing the best they can with the employees they have working for >> them. In one article I read, for instance, a woman's job was to hang >> clothes. Her salary was adjusted based on how well she did the job - >> essentially, her productivity. >> >> Finally, you mention companies having prejudiced attitudes towards the >> disabled. I disagree. If these certificates were declared unlawful, >> then, from a business perspective, the only option is to lay off the >> employees. If an employee makes, say, an average of only a few >> pennies per hour, paying that employee the federal (or state) minimum >> wage is an exponential increase in their salary. This is obviously >> fantastic news for the employees; however, the business can't possibly >> sustain that model. Thus, the only option is to lay off the >> employees. I'm failing to understand how this helps them in any >> significant way; indeed, I would argue that, without a job, they would >> surely be hurting. >> >> >> On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short >>> answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are >>> blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee >>> can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental >>> disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can >>> be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, >>> the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the >>> disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled >>> employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum >>> wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum >>> wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled >>> and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive >>> enough. >>> >>> I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent >>> out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with >>> developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage >>> or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend >>> that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on >>> their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB >>>> is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to >>>> me. >>>> >>>> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >>>> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >>>> job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as >>>> cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty >>>> clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. >>>> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times >>>> more than you were paying them for the same amount of >>>> work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. >>>> >>>> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >>>> they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them >>>> from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these >>>> people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their >>>> lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right >>>> now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. >>>> >>>> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it >>>> seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the >>>> employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't >>>> make sense. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:24:07 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 00:24:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> Message-ID: <00bb01cf4ef4$8e243cc0$aa6cb640$@gmail.com> Yeah; the off record meeting would be great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 11:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Hi Antonio, I worked Youth Slam in 2009 and had similar impressions. As I said in my evaluation of the program, I think Youth Slam should have been divided up into two sessions each with 100 students, perhaps at the beginning and end of the summer. Many youth summer programs in the mainstream world have two sessions to accommodate different summer schedules. It's not a blindness thing; having 300 kids in one program is incredibly chaotic and it is difficult for overworked mentors and staff to give each student the individual attention he or she might require. It is especially hard when students are trying to learn new blindness skills. A two-session setup would have served the same number of kids and I don't think would have cost any more money. I'm disappointed that suggestion wasn't implemented but hope they at least considered it. You also make an excellent point about the sociology of organizational change. I am teaching social psychology this semester and re-reading a lot of basic social psych theory, and learning just how powerful group norms can be. Sometimes a very dynamic leader can change a group's direction singlehandedly, but that is rare. It usually requires some kind of collective shift just to allow that person to gain power and then the organization needs to move in the leader's direction; otherwise reform attempts are not effective. While I agree that we shouldn't leave the organization altogether if we are frustrated with it, I also think that we need to take collective responsibility for change. It starts with discussion in a safe place where people can feel free to express opposing viewpoints, such as we have here on list. Perhaps those of us young adults who want to see specific changes made should set up an off-record meeting at convention to discuss this further. When some of us as individuals feel disillusioned, we can underestimate how many others might be feeling the same way but afraid to express it publicly. Best, Arielle On 4/2/14, Jedi Moerke wrote: > Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea > where to start! > > I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that > I have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I > can say that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and > like I had nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this > organization. In short, I felt completely worthless and that I didn't > belong. Were there some people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this way? Yes. > But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the > federation were also to blame. > > My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. > I honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the > knowledge and experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like > many newcomers to organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became > enamored with every aspect of the organization and initially felt that > the organization and its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a > few experiences radically shifted my opinion in the opposite direction > and I felt completely disoriented. Self reflection caused me to > recognize a few things that might be relevant to this discussion. > > First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization > and the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the > Federation our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives > to support all blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan > used to say that, in everything that matters, we are one. I really > believe that is the attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we > fall short sometimes for one reason or another. But that is no reason > to quit. I really believe that it is better to stay and encourage > members around us to strive toward our stated ideals rather than to > leave with bitterness in our hearts and a bad attitude. And that is > not to say that encouraging others toward our organizational ideals > isn't challenging. I myself have faced that challenge and have come > out better for it. To tell you the truth, I believe the membership I > impacted also came out better as well. I also believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. > > I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself > within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as > a member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot > of personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a > member is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I > decided to do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much > happier for it. In the process of my personal reflection, I learned > that many other people in the organization decided to throw away > whatever rules they perceived for being a perfect Nfb member. And > strangely, I started to recognize overtime that there really were no > rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and that it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the organization? > Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other > areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say > to hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about > them. That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy > make some good points and recommendations for what blind people can do > to better themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations truly do make a difference. > It's up to you whether or not you are willing to assess your own life > to determine what recommendations will help you improve. Everyone has > room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down whatever > defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you might > find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful to > you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to > offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there > are also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday > be added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness > to speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the Federation. But that can't happen if you decide to leave. > > I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be > undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our > organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The > field of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies > are willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We > have learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. > We now know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM > fields. Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making > some things easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we > advocate for ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way we express ourselves is going to change. > But that does not mean that our mission has changed. And yes, we have > taken on a few initiatives that cost a lot of money. In the current > budgetary climate, we do need to work harder at raising some funds in > order to keep these initiatives afloat. That said, I believe the > national organization recognizes that not everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. > I think the national organizations goals for us as members is for each > of us to participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our > participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal > contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the > organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to > sell things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the > blind campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for > you to do what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you > may have more enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as > advocacy or public education. So spend your time on those efforts > rather than moaning about our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I > tell you that there are members who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways really. > > As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's > comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured > discovery perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no > perfect way to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about > teaching people the skills they need to make sense of the world and to > act in it given their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not > sensitive to a person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a > teacher who does not push a student out of their comfort zone is no > teacher at all. And it doesn't really matter if that teacher is a > travel instructor or a mentor at convention. The best teachers keep > students in a sweet spot where they are definitely challenged, but not > so challenged as to make the experience a total wash. If you are the > student so to speak and find yourself with a teacher who either > doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your ability, then it is > your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in that sweet > spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between your > actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, > if you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it wrong anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no matter what kind of blind person you are. > > At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that > those of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not alone. > Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the > territory of being one member among many within a vast organization > whose membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep > talking to people about your experience as you will likely find > someone who has been there and who can be both a support system and an > advisor to you as to what you might do to find your place among us > once again. Like I said, I have been there before and I am still > working on finding my place. I'm not really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident that I will nonetheless. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I >> somehow repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get quite >> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought up >> a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >> >> >> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two >> things primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in hand >> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and >> want to be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, >> some not money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, >> some want to be members with no responsibility in the organization. >> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an >> effort to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet >> their needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things >> over time will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow >> members as people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >> >> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people >> in our chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. >> Sometimes we need to reach out to the right person, sometimes there >> is more that we can do and simply giving up won't solve the problem. >> It of course is totally possible that for whatever reason the >> leadership isn't very receptive to new people or new ideas. If you >> believe in what the federation stands for and believe what we do is >> worth the time you are willing to give, then finding the right outlet >> in some part of the organization is very important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the movement. >> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of >> us know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we >> do all of these things are important. >> >> >> Darian >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival >>> with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of >>> banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken >>> up with prize drawings and the like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person >>> and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt >>> completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would >>> encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try >>> again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find >>> acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>> Hello all. >>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>> Thanks. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>> mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>> mentoor. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joe" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>> to be in the company >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent >>>>> issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, >>>>> featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >>>>> so-called friends from whom >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>> >>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>>> field, also national in scope. >>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>> >>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>> professionals. >>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>> sustaining. >>>>> >>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>> don't want >>>>> >>>>> it >>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>>> banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about >>>>> the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>>> Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks >>>>> around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. >>>>> >>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management >>>>> to you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >>>>> of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >>>>> taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like >>>>> the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe >>>>> it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it >>>>> is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>>> strength. >>>>> >>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>> >>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40fronti er.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile .net >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:29:46 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 00:29:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d201cf4ef5$582382b0$086a8810$@gmail.com> Everyone has the right to make minimum wage; while I understand your viewpoint of the employers possibly laying off those workers, noone, and I mean noone should be forced to work for subminimum wage. It simply is not fare, and it will be corrected. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Forzano Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:01 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue Hi All, I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to me. My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times more than you were paying them for the same amount of work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't make sense. Mike _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:38:55 2014 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 00:38:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Subminimum Wage Issue Message-ID: <001501cf4ef6$9fbb3040$df3190c0$@gmail.com> Mike, Excellent points from Arielle. I'd also add, these aren't for profit businesses, by and large. They are nonprofits that rely on preferential government contracting terms and charitable donations to operate. Government and charity are now subsidizing large salaries for the management of these operations. Why not subsidize the unproductive workers to the level of the minimum wage? Government subsidizes and people give to help the disabled workers. That is not what ends up happening. This argument holds even if one excepts the notion that most individuals with multiple disabilities cannot produce at a level to justify the minimum wage, which I do not. Surely there are some though, and they too deserve the equal protection under the law of having the minimum wage apply. Requiring minimum wage will certainly impose costs on these nonprofits, but, again, they are not businesses and they serve a social function that society agreed is important, employing those with disabilities. Sean From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:40:35 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 22:40:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Old NABS list post from Sean Whalen about subminimum wages Message-ID: >From June 2012: Good afternoon, One of the primary purposes of the boycott is to garner media attention for the minimum wage issue. The boycott effort and PR/media efforts are complementary rather than mutually exclusive. We "pick on" Good Will because they are one of, if not the, largest and most visible nonprofits who take advantage of the current law to pay workers with disabilities subminimum wages. When you're the biggest fish in the pond you're going to get noticed and your actions will be scrutinized by people in and out of your field. That's just the way it goes. Most of these workshops do the vast majority of their business with the federal government, providing goods and services through non-competitive set-aside contracts. These goods and services are frequently provided at costs that exceed their fair market value. Obviously Good Will has their hands in other activities as well, but the point stands. If taxpayers are being asked to subsidize nonprofits to create employment opportunities for blind or otherwise disabled individuals, and we all, in effect, subsidize the very good, and sometimes exorbitant, salaries of the management of these non-profits, why is it a bad idea to subsidize the wages of disabled individuals, even those who may not be able to produce output justifying the minimum wage in the market? I think that the number of disabled folks in these workshops who are incapable of truly earning the minimum wage is much lower than most people assume. And, again, if there is somebody whose level of output truly only justifies $1.50 per hour, I am happy to subsidize the wage to give them the dignity of equal treatment under the law. I myself worked for a time in a shop and was paid less than $4 per hour. I'm worth more than that. I saw others in the very same boat. The law is discriminatory, and the system is corrupt and fails to achieve its stated goals. Not only should the minimum wage apply, but organizations wishing to receive preferential treatment in government contracting should have to fill a stated percentage of their managerial positions with folks with disabilities and offer true training and upward mobility. As it stands now, there is no real opportunity in the vast majority of these workshops. While it is true that, generally speaking, the NFB only speaks for the blind, on this issue we have over 40 different disabilities rights organizations standing shoulder to shoulder with us saying that it is reprehensible that we, today in the United States of America, have a law on the books that codifies the inferiority and lesser ability of those with disabilities. We, and they, are completely correct. The boycott of Good Will is but one piece of the larger effort. It is incumbent upon each of us to keep pressure on our Members of Congress to change the law. Will it cost Good Will and other non-profits more money to pay all their workers minimum wage? Yes, it will. Is the tiny increase in cost realistically going to lead to the loss of job opportunities as many of the workshops claim? I can't see how it would. In fact, it won't. And the argument is disingenuous and, frankly, pretty disgusting. Say a shop worker currently makes $1.50 an hour. Say the law is changed and minimum wage now applies. Say the employee is now paid $7.50 an hour. That's an extra $6 an hour, an extra $240 a week, and $12,480 a year. Say Good Will has 100 employees of whom this is the case (in reality there are fewer). This would represent an annual cost increase of $1,248,000 to Good Will. That's a lot of money to you or me, but a pittance to this giant non-profit. The same can be said of smaller shops, just on a smaller scale. The argument that all the poor unemployable disabled folks will be sent home jobless if the law is changed is bogus and cynical. As I said before, the majority of these shops get the majority of their business through non-competitive contracts with the government, so the additional labor cost would be built right into the price the government pays. And, as I also said, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to affirm the dignity, value and legal equality of all individuals rather than to support the 70, 80, 100k salaries of the management types at these shops who somehow sleep at night under the illusion, or maybe delusion, that they are doing something positive for people with disabilities. It's wrong, it's disgusting, and, yes, it hits a raw nerve with me because I've lived it. If there is a minimum wage it should apply to everybody in the employment market, full stop. Sean From michaeldforzano at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:51:12 2014 From: michaeldforzano at gmail.com (Michael Forzano) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:51:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: <00d201cf4ef5$582382b0$086a8810$@gmail.com> References: <00d201cf4ef5$582382b0$086a8810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Arielle, At any job, whether you have a disability or not, your wages depend on your performance. Of course, if you're earning minimum wage, and aren't subject to the subminimum wage exception, you get fired if you underperform for a long enough time. So no, employees being paid subminimum wage are not the only ones being judged based on their performance. I do agree you have a point about parents'/guardians discouraging people from doing what they might be capable of, making them think subminimum wage jobs are their only option when that might not be the case. But that problem stretches way beyond minimum wage. I think it is the reason many blind people don't apply for jobs at all. The NFB should focus on trying to solve that problem as a whole, rather than fixating on this issue that affects only a tiny percentage of people. I'd be interested to hear about the Harvard law student who was once paid subminimum wage. I can't help wondering why he chose to stay at that job, since he clearly knows what he is capable of if he is at Harvard. Overall, my point is that the subminimum wage program is designed for people who actually can't perform a minimum wage job. Apparently some high-functioning blind people ended up in these jobs, whether it was because they were discouraged by their parents or some other reason. That just means they were incorrectly put into the program, not that the program doesn't serve a purpose. Again, it might be the only option for severely disabled people other than sitting at home for the rest of their lives. Mike On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: > Everyone has the right to make minimum wage; while I understand your > viewpoint of the employers possibly laying off those workers, noone, and I > mean noone should be forced to work for subminimum wage. It simply is not > fare, and it will be corrected. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael > Forzano > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:01 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue > > Hi All, > > I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB is > involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to me. > > My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have > disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the job > as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as cerebral palsy. > If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty clear to me that the > employers would lay off the people in question. > After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times more > than you were paying them for the same amount of work/productivity, I don't > think you'd have much choice. > > People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because they > have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them from working > even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these people will likely have > no job at all and be forced to spend their lives sitting at home on SSI. > How > is that helping them? at least right now, they have a job, something to > keep > them busy. > > I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it seems > pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the employers > may > want to continue to employ these people it just won't make sense. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michaeldforzano%40gmail.com > From clb5590 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:54:42 2014 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 21:54:42 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: <00d201cf4ef5$582382b0$086a8810$@gmail.com> References: <00d201cf4ef5$582382b0$086a8810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, First, I apologize, I was off email for a while eating dinner and composing a reply because this issue is one that I am very passionate about. Some of the points were more eloquently relayed by others by the time I got back on to post this, but for the sake that I just composed it, here is my reply below. The first I heard about the fair wages initiative was at the 2011 national convention. It was my first convention, and I too was astonished that we cared about solving a problem experienced by those with disabilities that did not have hope of gaining anything better based on their lack of potential. I heard about the initiative again from our national rep at the NFB of Minnesota state convention and at the North Carolina state convention; I was attending BLIND, Inc. thus attended both. Anil Lewis happened to be in Minneapolis for some reason and ran a seminar for the students at BLIND, Inc., and surprise! It was on that subminimum wage issue. I was annoyed at this point. I felt like people were yelling at me to just believe that it was wrong and I didn't listen because my only experiences with people tagged as having multiple disabilities were events where they were tokens for fundraising purposes or visiting a class or something. I was a NABS rep at the NFB of Michigan convention later that fall, and Anil Lewis was the national rep. I finally had had enough, so I cornered him and asked him why the NFB expected its members to follow suit with something for moral reasons when they had presented no facts. Since then, I have seen numerous emails and stories littered with facts and figures that represent the fallacy that special wage certificates are in place for the good of those with disabilities. This was a direct example of how I expressed a concern with a national leader, and he listened and, understood the value of what I, and perhaps others, suggested, and implemented it. I will share some of this information now. I just said all of this to say that I too, at first, was very skeptical of the relevance of this issue in the National Federation of the, let's hear it, Blind, not Blind with other disabilities, and whether it was actually unfair, discriminatory, and immoral. Many entities justify their special wage certificate because they claim they are a training center for individuals with disabilities. If that is so, then you would expect trained individuals to depart such a center or at least move up in the ranks. At our NFB training centers, our students don't stay forever. Although we don't train students for one specific job, we have success rates of over 90% of graduates finding jobs or going to school within a year of graduating a center. I will echo others in noting that several students at our training centers have disabilities in addition to blindness. In contrast, only 5% of workers at these so-called training centers with their special wage certificates ever seek other employment. Another argument is that passing legislation will mean that all people with disabilities working under the Section 14C provision will lose their jobs. I agree with Arielle in that if any employer does this, it is because they are prejudiced against workers with disabilities. It is proven that these companies operate just fine with exorbitant executive salaries. A great example of this phenomenon occurred at the state convention of the NFB of Washington in 2012. BISM in Maryland, The Chicago Lighthouse for the Blind, and the Seattle Lighthouse for the Blind voluntarily forfeited their special wage certificates and committed to pay all workers at least the minimum wage. We thanked the CEO of the Seattle Lighthouse at our convention. He gave a report as he does each year and mentioned that the company was operating a $54 million budget. He later mentioned that the transition would be difficult because it was costing the Lighthouse $60 thousand a year to raise everyone's wage to at least the minimum. A little math easily shows that this is just over 1 tenth of a percent of their $54 million operating budget. If a company is having difficulty making a less than a 1 tenth of a percentage point increase in their cost, then they had bigger problems. I would contend that the real transition was in attitudes rather than finances. Paying people ethically does not cost these companies; it is not mom and pop shops employing people with disabilities at subminimum wage; it is often conglomerate workshops that take advantage of the provision to get nice perks like preferential contracts. Preferential contracts mean they have to do less work to receive more business, and people with disabilities are an easy ticket to such a provision. For those that think this plight affects only those with multiple disabilities, you should be informed that our own president, Sean Whalen, worked for subminimum wages at a sheltered workshop. He is now pursuing a masters in public policy from Harvard, but at the time, it was believed in his community that such a job was his only hope. He talked about this in his 2012 presidential report at the annual business meeting of NABS at the national convention. Similarly, there was a news special done months ago about a couple in Montana working for subminimum wages. If they have additional disabilities, they chose to disclose only blindness in the news story. However, I think this is irrelevant. We just had a discussion thread about including people who have disabilities in addition to blindness better in the NFB. This is a direct way we are doing this. We believe that people with all types of disabilities can achieve adequate productivity in society with the proper training and opportunity. We list it in our motto. The article about Walgreens mentions using simple organization strategies like colors, food items, or animals. The Walgreens article also mentioned several times that hiring people with disabilities was an experiment and if the workers did not meet their standards, they would let them go. My favorite part resonates with me as an accessibility researcher, the methods used to assist those with disabilities actually helped everyone. Another thing I wondered is whether these people even understood minimum wage and knew the difference. There is an inherent problem with this. We have legislation protecting anyone who cannot manage their own lives against abuse, and if a caregiver can be convicted for squandering their client's money, how can a business be given the opportunity to directly take advantage of someone who doesn't know the system? What is more is that this idea is unrealistic. Many earners of subminimum wage know it and are brainwashed to believe they are not worth it. I heard these exact words said by a woman who attended a NFB of Oregon state convention. She interrupted Parnell Diggs's update about the fair wages initiative to say that she had other disabilities and mental health instability that prevent her from being productive enough to be "worth" the minimum wage. It sure seems like her employer does not fit the propaganda about the happy places that just love giving people with disabilities opportunity. They have clearly exaggerated what society already tells her as someone with a disability that she really isn't worth it and that she should be thankful for the charitable saviors who give her some way to spend her sad life. I don't see anyone going through tests to gage whether they are worth anything in society. Everyone except people with disabilities is entitled to the minimum wage if they get a job. So this is about equality. And if there is someone who, after put through appropriate training, and after given appropriate opportunity, who does not perform to company standards or who chooses to not work, then, disability or not, I do not believe should be working at that job. I think that this will constitute a small minority however. The bottom line is that is it ok to give someone something to do just to give them something to do when others doing that same something are given a proper wage? I have to wonder how unproductive these employees actually are. I wonder if the issue lies more with inside-the-box training that is ineffective. And it is true that some employers pay their workers without disabilities based on productivity; it's called commission. Right to work states also require service industry workers like restaurant servers to count tips into their wage. But this has nothing to do with section 14C. Section 14C discriminates against a select group of individuals simply because they have a disability. Not less productive individuals, disabled individuals; productivity tests are implemented as a mechanism to determine wage; the certificates are not made for "less productive people." It wasn't long ago that we treated other groups like this. I have watched several videos about how to train a woman to work. They became popular during World War II. When many women went to work. The videos were littered with misconceptions with remnants that still plague our society like being softer on a woman, not expecting as much out of her, and not expecting her to understand higher level thinking. This sounds inane now, but we are still behind as a society when it comes to the perceptions of what people with disabilities can contribute to the workplace and society. I think that some think it is a utopia to think that legislation will solve the problem, and in some ways, it is. And that is why the NFB also does other things like exemplify proper training for blind people and work with other companies and organizations who exemplify similar ideals to prove that the legislation should create rather than stifle opportunities. Sure, some companies are going to choose to continue their prejudice of people with disabilities, but I would like to learn more about how realistic this is. It sounds to me like preferential contracts are pretty desirable, and any reputable companies that laid off a ton of workers with disabilities would get deplorable publicity. And if you think the NFB is crazy, then know that President Obama included workers with disabilities in his recent executive order raising the minimum wage for all workers on federal contracts. Similarly, over 50 organizations made up of and for people with disabilities have joined the NFB in the effort to obliterate section 14C. So I would just challenge anyone who justifies the subminimum wage-granting certificates if their rationale has to do with an actual inability of certain people to contribute or a result of society and our own closed experiences. On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: > Everyone has the right to make minimum wage; while I understand your > viewpoint of the employers possibly laying off those workers, noone, and I > mean noone should be forced to work for subminimum wage. It simply is not > fare, and it will be corrected. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael > Forzano > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:01 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue > > Hi All, > > I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB is > involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to me. > > My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have > disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the job > as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as cerebral palsy. > If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty clear to me that the > employers would lay off the people in question. > After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times more > than you were paying them for the same amount of work/productivity, I don't > think you'd have much choice. > > People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because they > have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them from working > even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these people will likely have > no job at all and be forced to spend their lives sitting at home on SSI. > How > is that helping them? at least right now, they have a job, something to > keep > them busy. > > I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it seems > pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the employers > may > want to continue to employ these people it just won't make sense. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 04:59:36 2014 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 00:59:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael and Andy, and all, Your logic makes sense at first glance, and it is how I used to think about this issue. It seems as though the NFB is fighting to take away “jobs” from people with severe disabilities who might not otherwise be able to have them. Several ideas promoted by the NFB and others involved in this cause have changed my mind though. First, people who are blind only and have college degrees have gotten stuck in this system and are paid sub minimum wages. The NFB has highlighted their stories. I would encourage you to find the highlights from last convention. A couple from Montana had both been employed for sub minimum wages. Second, if several organizations who work with people with multiple and severe disabilities have been able to change their training and business formats to better make use of the skills of their workers and so afford to pay these workers minimum wage or higher, why should other organizations be allowed to continue the outdated practice of having low expectations for people with disabilities and paying them less than the minimum wage? It has been demonstrated that it can be done several times, including the story from Walgreens referenced earlier. Even Good Will, who NFB has blasted time and again for their defense of the lower wage certificates, has many of its centers paying workers with disabilities more than minimum wage. Organizations who defend the reduced wage certificate are essentially making a decision to not adjust their practices to better serve the people they are claiming to help. This is a problem, particularly because these centers receive government subsidies and charitable donations to to provide training to the people they serve. Third, this is not an NFB only issue. The NFB has joined hands with groups across the spectrum of disabilities, including advocacy groups for people with multiple and severe disabilities. The fact that these groups are aggressively supporting this campaign tells me there is more to the issue than just a group of well-educated and well-equipped blind people who want to eliminate a system for employment because it does not line up with their philosophical values. Fourth, I think eliminating sub minimum wages will contribute to changing the employment atmosphere for people with disabilities. You and I can sit and make distinctions between people who are only blind or people who have multiple disabilities. I suspect this distinction is often lost on employers with little or no experience with disability. I’m not even sure it is a distinction we should really be emphasizing, as though being only blind automatically makes one more capable of earning a wage than being blind and having an additional disability. In my experience, this may or may not be true. It may be true that those who are only blind may require less accommodations in the typical workplace than those who have additional disabilities, but this may have as much to do with the workplace than the person. In situations where the workplace can be controlled, such as supported employment workshops, the workplace should be adjusted to allow the workers to be more productive. It sounds as though Walgreens has been experimenting with this concept in a for profit business. I know these are not complete arguments but they are the beginnings of ideas that helped me change the way I think on this issue. Best, Greg On Apr 2, 2014, at 11:50 PM, Michael Forzano wrote: > Hi Arielle, > > I agree with everything Andy said. I also read the article you > mentioned. What Wallgreen's is doing is great. However, it seems that > the people they hire are either capable of doing the job productively > or being trained to do so. It mentions people with behavioral issues > that would normally not be permitted in the workplace and how they are > making exceptions for that, which again, is really a great thing. I > don't think it proves that it makes business sense to employ people > who actually are unable to do the job even close to as well as the > employees paid minimum wage, though. > > Mike > > On 4/2/14, Andy wrote: >> I thought I'd chime in here. >> Arielle, you say: >> "Some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no >> other disabilities." >> If this is true, I'm baffled as to why NFB is not using this approach >> for lobbying. Every article I've ever seen has discussed multiple >> disabilities. I think the NFB would have a stronger argument if they >> could find people with blindness as the only disability, and could >> procure evidence that they were, essentially, being exploited. I read >> an article, for instance, about a woman with cerebral palsy and >> blindness. The highest paycheck she earned was somewhere around $18. >> I've read many other such articles that detail similar cases. >> >> You also say that productivity is subjective. I certainly agree. >> However, according to various articles, companies have been performing >> tests to try and find an acceptable salary based on the capabilities >> of the employees at their specific jobs. I would argue that employers >> are doing the best they can with the employees they have working for >> them. In one article I read, for instance, a woman's job was to hang >> clothes. Her salary was adjusted based on how well she did the job - >> essentially, her productivity. >> >> Finally, you mention companies having prejudiced attitudes towards the >> disabled. I disagree. If these certificates were declared unlawful, >> then, from a business perspective, the only option is to lay off the >> employees. If an employee makes, say, an average of only a few >> pennies per hour, paying that employee the federal (or state) minimum >> wage is an exponential increase in their salary. This is obviously >> fantastic news for the employees; however, the business can't possibly >> sustain that model. Thus, the only option is to lay off the >> employees. I'm failing to understand how this helps them in any >> significant way; indeed, I would argue that, without a job, they would >> surely be hurting. >> >> >> On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short >>> answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are >>> blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee >>> can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental >>> disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can >>> be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, >>> the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the >>> disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled >>> employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum >>> wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum >>> wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled >>> and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive >>> enough. >>> >>> I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent >>> out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with >>> developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage >>> or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend >>> that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on >>> their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB >>>> is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to >>>> me. >>>> >>>> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >>>> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >>>> job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as >>>> cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty >>>> clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. >>>> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times >>>> more than you were paying them for the same amount of >>>> work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. >>>> >>>> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >>>> they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them >>>> from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these >>>> people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their >>>> lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right >>>> now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. >>>> >>>> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it >>>> seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the >>>> employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't >>>> make sense. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michaeldforzano%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 05:02:04 2014 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 22:02:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: <00d201cf4ef5$582382b0$086a8810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, with the talk of the majority of these entities being nonprofits, I just wanted to clarify that the Seattle Lighthouse is both. Their business is run as a business, and they have a nonprofit foundation that raises money for programs such as the supported employment program that provides training for those that need it. I wonder how many of these entities operate under duel roles and why some choose to do so, whether it is truely a benefit or another way for exploitation of the benefits of a nonprofit and the benefits of a business. I also realize that many large companies have nonprofit components or spinoffs and that this is not unique to charitable organizations. Cindy On 4/2/14, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Hi, > > First, I apologize, I was off email for a while eating dinner and > composing a reply because this issue is one that I am very passionate > about. Some of the points were more eloquently relayed by others by > the time I got back on to post this, but for the sake that I just > composed it, here is my reply below. > > The first I heard about the fair wages initiative was at the 2011 > national convention. It was my first convention, and I too was > astonished that we cared about solving a problem experienced by those > with disabilities that did not have hope of gaining anything better > based on their lack of potential. I heard about the initiative again > from our national rep at the NFB of Minnesota state convention and at > the North Carolina state convention; I was attending BLIND, Inc. thus > attended both. Anil Lewis happened to be in Minneapolis for some > reason and ran a seminar for the students at BLIND, Inc., and > surprise! It was on that subminimum wage issue. I was annoyed at this > point. I felt like people were yelling at me to just believe that it > was wrong and I didn't listen because my only experiences with people > tagged as having multiple disabilities were events where they were > tokens for fundraising purposes or visiting a class or something. I > was a NABS rep at the NFB of Michigan convention later that fall, and > Anil Lewis was the national rep. I finally had had enough, so I > cornered him and asked him why the NFB expected its members to follow > suit with something for moral reasons when they had presented no > facts. Since then, I have seen numerous emails and stories littered > with facts and figures that represent the fallacy that special wage > certificates are in place for the good of those with disabilities. > This was a direct example of how I expressed a concern with a national > leader, and he listened and, understood the value of what I, and > perhaps others, suggested, and implemented it. I will share some of > this information now. I just said all of this to say that I too, at > first, was very skeptical of the relevance of this issue in the > National Federation of the, let's hear it, Blind, not Blind with other > disabilities, and whether it was actually unfair, discriminatory, and > immoral. > > Many entities justify their special wage certificate because they > claim they are a training center for individuals with disabilities. If > that is so, then you would expect trained individuals to depart such a > center or at least move up in the ranks. At our NFB training centers, > our students don't stay forever. Although we don't train students for > one specific job, we have success rates of over 90% of graduates > finding jobs or going to school within a year of graduating a center. > I will echo others in noting that several students at our training > centers have disabilities in addition to blindness. In contrast, only > 5% of workers at these so-called training centers with their special > wage certificates ever seek other employment. > > Another argument is that passing legislation will mean that all people > with disabilities working under the Section 14C provision will lose > their jobs. I agree with Arielle in that if any employer does this, it > is because they are prejudiced against workers with disabilities. It > is proven that these companies operate just fine with exorbitant > executive salaries. A great example of this phenomenon occurred at the > state convention of the NFB of Washington in 2012. BISM in Maryland, > The Chicago Lighthouse for the Blind, and the Seattle Lighthouse for > the Blind voluntarily forfeited their special wage certificates and > committed to pay all workers at least the minimum wage. We thanked the > CEO of the Seattle Lighthouse at our convention. He gave a report as > he does each year and mentioned that the company was operating a $54 > million budget. He later mentioned that the transition would be > difficult because it was costing the Lighthouse $60 thousand a year to > raise everyone's wage to at least the minimum. A little math easily > shows that this is just over 1 tenth of a percent of their $54 million > operating budget. If a company is having difficulty making a less than > a 1 tenth of a percentage point increase in their cost, then they had > bigger problems. I would contend that the real transition was in > attitudes rather than finances. Paying people ethically does not cost > these companies; it is not mom and pop shops employing people with > disabilities at subminimum wage; it is often conglomerate workshops > that take advantage of the provision to get nice perks like > preferential contracts. Preferential contracts mean they have to do > less work to receive more business, and people with disabilities are > an easy ticket to such a provision. > > For those that think this plight affects only those with multiple > disabilities, you should be informed that our own president, Sean > Whalen, worked for subminimum wages at a sheltered workshop. He is now > pursuing a masters in public policy from Harvard, but at the time, it > was believed in his community that such a job was his only hope. He > talked about this in his 2012 presidential report at the annual > business meeting of NABS at the national convention. Similarly, there > was a news special done months ago about a couple in Montana working > for subminimum wages. If they have additional disabilities, they chose > to disclose only blindness in the news story. > > However, I think this is irrelevant. We just had a discussion thread > about including people who have disabilities in addition to blindness > better in the NFB. This is a direct way we are doing this. We believe > that people with all types of disabilities can achieve adequate > productivity in society with the proper training and opportunity. We > list it in our motto. The article about Walgreens mentions using > simple organization strategies like colors, food items, or animals. > The Walgreens article also mentioned several times that hiring people > with disabilities was an experiment and if the workers did not meet > their standards, they would let them go. My favorite part resonates > with me as an accessibility researcher, the methods used to assist > those with disabilities actually helped everyone. > > Another thing I wondered is whether these people even understood > minimum wage and knew the difference. There is an inherent problem > with this. We have legislation protecting anyone who cannot manage > their own lives against abuse, and if a caregiver can be convicted for > squandering their client's money, how can a business be given the > opportunity to directly take advantage of someone who doesn't know the > system? What is more is that this idea is unrealistic. Many earners of > subminimum wage know it and are brainwashed to believe they are not > worth it. I heard these exact words said by a woman who attended a NFB > of Oregon state convention. She interrupted Parnell Diggs's update > about the fair wages initiative to say that she had other disabilities > and mental health instability that prevent her from being productive > enough to be "worth" the minimum wage. It sure seems like her employer > does not fit the propaganda about the happy places that just love > giving people with disabilities opportunity. They have clearly > exaggerated what society already tells her as someone with a > disability that she really isn't worth it and that she should be > thankful for the charitable saviors who give her some way to spend her > sad life. I don't see anyone going through tests to gage whether they > are worth anything in society. Everyone except people with > disabilities is entitled to the minimum wage if they get a job. So > this is about equality. And if there is someone who, after put through > appropriate training, and after given appropriate opportunity, who > does not perform to company standards or who chooses to not work, > then, disability or not, I do not believe should be working at that > job. I think that this will constitute a small minority however. > > The bottom line is that is it ok to give someone something to do just > to give them something to do when others doing that same something are > given a proper wage? I have to wonder how unproductive these employees > actually are. I wonder if the issue lies more with inside-the-box > training that is ineffective. > > And it is true that some employers pay their workers without > disabilities based on productivity; it's called commission. Right to > work states also require service industry workers like restaurant > servers to count tips into their wage. But this has nothing to do with > section 14C. Section 14C discriminates against a select group of > individuals simply because they have a disability. Not less productive > individuals, disabled individuals; productivity tests are implemented > as a mechanism to determine wage; the certificates are not made for > "less productive people." > > It wasn't long ago that we treated other groups like this. I have > watched several videos about how to train a woman to work. They became > popular during World War II. When many women went to work. The videos > were littered with misconceptions with remnants that still plague our > society like being softer on a woman, not expecting as much out of > her, and not expecting her to understand higher level thinking. This > sounds inane now, but we are still behind as a society when it comes > to the perceptions of what people with disabilities can contribute to > the workplace and society. > > I think that some think it is a utopia to think that legislation will > solve the problem, and in some ways, it is. And that is why the NFB > also does other things like exemplify proper training for blind people > and work with other companies and organizations who exemplify similar > ideals to prove that the legislation should create rather than stifle > opportunities. Sure, some companies are going to choose to continue > their prejudice of people with disabilities, but I would like to learn > more about how realistic this is. It sounds to me like preferential > contracts are pretty desirable, and any reputable companies that laid > off a ton of workers with disabilities would get deplorable publicity. > > And if you think the NFB is crazy, then know that President Obama > included workers with disabilities in his recent executive order > raising the minimum wage for all workers on federal contracts. > Similarly, over 50 organizations made up of and for people with > disabilities have joined the NFB in the effort to obliterate section > 14C. > > So I would just challenge anyone who justifies the subminimum > wage-granting certificates if their rationale has to do with an actual > inability of certain people to contribute or a result of society and > our own closed experiences. > > > > > On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >> Everyone has the right to make minimum wage; while I understand your >> viewpoint of the employers possibly laying off those workers, noone, and >> I >> mean noone should be forced to work for subminimum wage. It simply is >> not >> fare, and it will be corrected. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael >> Forzano >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:01 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue >> >> Hi All, >> >> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB is >> involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to me. >> >> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >> job >> as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as cerebral >> palsy. >> If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty clear to me that the >> employers would lay off the people in question. >> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times more >> than you were paying them for the same amount of work/productivity, I >> don't >> think you'd have much choice. >> >> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >> they >> have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them from >> working >> even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these people will likely >> have >> no job at all and be forced to spend their lives sitting at home on SSI. >> How >> is that helping them? at least right now, they have a job, something to >> keep >> them busy. >> >> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it seems >> pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the employers >> may >> want to continue to employ these people it just won't make sense. >> >> Mike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 05:24:51 2014 From: ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com (ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:24:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism In-Reply-To: <55588B3EE3B2496DB8B824E7D0B66100@OwnerPC> References: <3A57E6874C8F44CF8D04E4CD20992A5E@HP30910210001> <55588B3EE3B2496DB8B824E7D0B66100@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <75033B47-E846-4A38-AE7A-3FD5753BAE2D@gmail.com> Thank you Ashley. Lora Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Melissa, > I agree and I hope the shift is toward educating companies to make their software accessible and doing outreach so they know our capabilities. > We need to focus more on employment, definitely. Due to the inaccessible software on pcs, electronics going touch screen and employer attitudes, we are not increasing our employment rate. > It used to be you could be a receptionist or admin assistant or secretary as a blind person, good entry level job. This was in the 90s when we had pcs, but no digital touch screens. Okay, now, you have inaccessible equipment; scanners, copiers, and printers have screens one has to read to operate them beyond the basics. Even phones now have menus we cannot read. We can operate them and make calls, sure, but to go change settings, we cannot do that. > Digital things has caused inaccessibility. And, jobs blind people used to have are disappearing. Such jobs include secretaries, switch board operators, and receptionists. Dark room technicians, piano tuners, and > chair caning are disappearing too. > > I think without more of a move to have accessible software, we are going to be left behind. > Every job ad tells me I need skills in database management. How can we compete with inaccessible databases? Not even MS Access is accessible! > > As to conservatism, indeed it’s a conservative group. I knew this the second meeting I went to 15 years back. Much of the self empowerment message spoken about at the virginia state convention is conservative. Yes, it is like yeah everyone can be successful in whatever they want. If you cannot get your dreams, you need to have more skills or more confidence; just as conservatives like rush Limboull say get up and out there, the NFB says if you cannot succeed its your fault. As Joe pointed out, I no longer can follow this. I have skills and a college degree, yet I cannot possibly meet all job qualifications because of visual barriers. Another example is many communications jobs I want require adobe creative suite use. I cannot use adobe photoshop or adobe end design. Never will happen, even if I improve my computer skills; some things just cannot be done with a screen reader. I could use other text based databases if they were accessible though; such as raisers edge, donor perfect, CRM, and SalesForce. > > I do like the can do attitude of NFB leaders, but out in the real world, having the blindness skills simply is no longer enough to suceed. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: melissa R Green > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:45 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism > > I like the dual aproach as well. I have stated this before, and I don't > have a concrete answer. I think that we need to also continue to focus on > the employment of blind people more than we have done. I was very glad that > the job fair was occurring at convention again, and that there was a job > fair at washington seminar. In my opinion, this is a more balanced aproach > to assisting blind people in becoming successful. Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 3:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism > > > I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy > itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" > mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also > historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind > including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal > position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've > picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and > pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in > addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. > In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent > years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think > the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual > approach of empowering blind people while also making environments > more hospitable for us. > > Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on > themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the > old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often > stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are > today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider > (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out > to other blind people for help. > > Arielle > >> On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. >> Great point Ashley. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Kaiti, >> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions >> too. >> >> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy >> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on >> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is >> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; >> get >> a job. >> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you >> can >> be financially independent through other means with out the job. >> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances >> who >> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a >> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is >> doing >> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like >> raisers edge. >> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps >> with no outside help. >> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and >> ACB >> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these >> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things >> may change soon. >> >> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope >> this >> does not happen again. >> >> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >> disability groups. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Hello all, >> >> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may >> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those >> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to >> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >> people, >> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish >> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with >> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from >> the >> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but >> I'm >> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed >> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, >> it's >> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive >> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, >> but >> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >> >> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> unitarian >> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than >> the >> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, >> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was >> not >> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even >> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know >> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent >> part of convention? >> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would >> hate >> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to >> pretend >> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve >> the >> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >> circumstances >> doesn't seem right. >> Sorry for the rant. >> >>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>> happen again. >>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>> be the darling of >>> >>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>> chapters and >>> >>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >>> up in >>> >>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >>> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>> withmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> >>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>>> is not occurring. >>>> >>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>>> diverse. I also >>>> >>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>>> they have >>>> >>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>> transgendered people. >>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>> announcement and >>>> >>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>> social purposes. >>>> >>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>> changes >>>> >>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>> what happens. >>>> Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>> multipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>> help them with. >>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>> Joe and others, >>>>> >>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>> >>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>> having >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>>> for us >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>>> training. >>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>> education. >>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>> >>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>> >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >>>>>>> is >> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>> 0visi.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>>> .com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>> 40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 05:28:00 2014 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 00:28:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <00bb01cf4ef4$8e243cc0$aa6cb640$@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> <00bb01cf4ef4$8e243cc0$aa6cb640$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I agree with Darian and Jedi here, and I have a few things to add. As for NFB and ACB, I would encourage anyone to experience an ACB convention if possible. It wasn't my thing... And if you'd like to know why, you can certainly email me off list. But there was definitely good there. When I met friends in the NFB, they were the first who didn't accept the "I'm blind" excuse. An NFB convention was the first place where I could walk around and look for things without someone attempting to help me. And within the Missouri affiliate, I began to feel like I was an equal contributor to something. Maybe this is an idealistic portrayal of what the NFB can do for people, and I realize that everyone's circumstances are different. But the NFB believes in blind people. Every organization is made of people, and those people make mistakes and upset others. It's unfortunate that those people represent the NFB, but the organization displays its belief in blind people constantly. The leadership cannot be perfect. We have boards and checks and balances, but things fail. The only thing we can do to change it is speak up as we are doing now and work with those we trust to change things. I want to also comment about real life and the NFB. Because of various positions I have had within the NFB, I know how to write a press release, where to begin a fundraising job, and how to facilitate a large meeting. You can't tell me these skills aren't transferable to other areas. I realize that everyone won't wish to participate in everything, but finding your place in the organization begins with meeting people and learning more about the different divisions and affiliates. As for fundraising, if we want the programs, we need the funds to make them happen. Maybe the organization attempts to do too much, but I suppose there is a lot to do. I don't believe that people should only contact their friends when it is donation time. I wish we didn't need to do fundraisers all the time, but needing the money is a reality. :) On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: > Yeah; the off record meeting would be great. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 11:02 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > Hi Antonio, > > I worked Youth Slam in 2009 and had similar impressions. As I said in my > evaluation of the program, I think Youth Slam should have been divided up > into two sessions each with 100 students, perhaps at the beginning and end > of the summer. Many youth summer programs in the mainstream world have two > sessions to accommodate different summer schedules. It's not a blindness > thing; having 300 kids in one program is incredibly chaotic and it is > difficult for overworked mentors and staff to give each student the > individual attention he or she might require. It is especially hard when > students are trying to learn new blindness skills. A two-session setup > would > have served the same number of kids and I don't think would have cost any > more money. I'm disappointed that suggestion wasn't implemented but hope > they at least considered it. > > You also make an excellent point about the sociology of organizational > change. I am teaching social psychology this semester and re-reading a lot > of basic social psych theory, and learning just how powerful group norms > can > be. Sometimes a very dynamic leader can change a group's direction > singlehandedly, but that is rare. It usually requires some kind of > collective shift just to allow that person to gain power and then the > organization needs to move in the leader's direction; otherwise reform > attempts are not effective. While I agree that we shouldn't leave the > organization altogether if we are frustrated with it, I also think that we > need to take collective responsibility for change. It starts with > discussion > in a safe place where people can feel free to express opposing viewpoints, > such as we have here on list. Perhaps those of us young adults who want to > see specific changes made should set up an off-record meeting at convention > to discuss this further. When some of us as individuals feel disillusioned, > we can underestimate how many others might be feeling the same way but > afraid to express it publicly. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 4/2/14, Jedi Moerke wrote: >> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea >> where to start! >> >> I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that >> I have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I >> can say that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and >> like I had nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this >> organization. In short, I felt completely worthless and that I didn't >> belong. Were there some people and experiences in the organization that > helped me to feel this way? Yes. >> But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the >> federation were also to blame. >> >> My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. >> I honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the >> knowledge and experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like >> many newcomers to organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became >> enamored with every aspect of the organization and initially felt that >> the organization and its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a >> few experiences radically shifted my opinion in the opposite direction >> and I felt completely disoriented. Self reflection caused me to >> recognize a few things that might be relevant to this discussion. >> >> First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization >> and the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the >> Federation our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives >> to support all blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan >> used to say that, in everything that matters, we are one. I really >> believe that is the attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we >> fall short sometimes for one reason or another. But that is no reason >> to quit. I really believe that it is better to stay and encourage >> members around us to strive toward our stated ideals rather than to >> leave with bitterness in our hearts and a bad attitude. And that is >> not to say that encouraging others toward our organizational ideals >> isn't challenging. I myself have faced that challenge and have come >> out better for it. To tell you the truth, I believe the membership I >> impacted also came out better as well. I also believe that we managed to > build a stronger relationship as a result. >> >> I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself >> within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as >> a member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot >> of personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a >> member is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I >> decided to do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much >> happier for it. In the process of my personal reflection, I learned >> that many other people in the organization decided to throw away >> whatever rules they perceived for being a perfect Nfb member. And >> strangely, I started to recognize overtime that there really were no >> rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and that it was all in our heads. > Are there judgmental people in the organization? >> Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other >> areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say >> to hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about >> them. That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy >> make some good points and recommendations for what blind people can do >> to better themselves. I am living proof that many of these >> recommendations > truly do make a difference. >> It's up to you whether or not you are willing to assess your own life >> to determine what recommendations will help you improve. Everyone has >> room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down whatever >> defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you might >> find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful to >> you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to >> offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there >> are also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday >> be added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness >> to speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the >> Federation. > But that can't happen if you decide to leave. >> >> I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be >> undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our >> organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The >> field of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies >> are willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We >> have learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. >> We now know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM >> fields. Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making >> some things easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we >> advocate for ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, > the way we express ourselves is going to change. >> But that does not mean that our mission has changed. And yes, we have >> taken on a few initiatives that cost a lot of money. In the current >> budgetary climate, we do need to work harder at raising some funds in >> order to keep these initiatives afloat. That said, I believe the >> national organization recognizes that not everyone is as enthusiastic > about fundraising as others. >> I think the national organizations goals for us as members is for each >> of us to participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our >> participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal >> contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the >> organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to >> sell things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the >> blind campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for >> you to do what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you >> may have more enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as >> advocacy or public education. So spend your time on those efforts >> rather than moaning about our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I >> tell you that there are members who moan about our public education > efforts. So it goes both ways really. >> >> As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's >> comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured >> discovery perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no >> perfect way to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about >> teaching people the skills they need to make sense of the world and to >> act in it given their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not >> sensitive to a person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a >> teacher who does not push a student out of their comfort zone is no >> teacher at all. And it doesn't really matter if that teacher is a >> travel instructor or a mentor at convention. The best teachers keep >> students in a sweet spot where they are definitely challenged, but not >> so challenged as to make the experience a total wash. If you are the >> student so to speak and find yourself with a teacher who either >> doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your ability, then it is >> your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in that sweet >> spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between your >> actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, >> if you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it > wrong anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no > matter what kind of blind person you are. >> >> At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that >> those of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are > not alone. >> Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the >> territory of being one member among many within a vast organization >> whose membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep >> talking to people about your experience as you will likely find >> someone who has been there and who can be both a support system and an >> advisor to you as to what you might do to find your place among us >> once again. Like I said, I have been there before and I am still >> working on finding my place. I'm not really sure when or how I will get > there, but I am still confident that I will nonetheless. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I >>> somehow repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to > get quite >>> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought > up >>> a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >>> >>> >>> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two >>> things primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >>> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in >>> hand >>> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >>> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >>> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and >>> want to be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, >>> some not money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, >>> some want to be members with no responsibility in the organization. >>> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an >>> effort to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet >>> their needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things >>> over time will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow >>> members as people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >>> >>> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people >>> in our chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. >>> Sometimes we need to reach out to the right person, sometimes there >>> is more that we can do and simply giving up won't solve the problem. >>> It of course is totally possible that for whatever reason the >>> leadership isn't very receptive to new people or new ideas. If you >>> believe in what the federation stands for and believe what we do is >>> worth the time you are willing to give, then finding the right outlet >>> in some part of the organization is very important, and I hope that > everyone here does this. >>> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the >>> movement. >>> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of >>> us know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we >>> do all of these things are important. >>> >>> >>> Darian >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival >>>> with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of >>>> banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken >>>> up with prize drawings and the like. >>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person >>>> and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt >>>> completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would >>>> encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try >>>> again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find >>>> acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be > sensitive to in the organization. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>> mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>>> mentoor. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent >>>>>> issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, >>>>>> featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >>>>>> so-called friends from whom >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>>>> field, also national in scope. >>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>> professionals. >>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>> don't want >>>>>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>>>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>>>> banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about >>>>>> the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>>>> Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks >>>>>> around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management >>>>>> to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>>>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >>>>>> of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >>>>>> taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like >>>>>> the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe >>>>>> it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it >>>>>> is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>>>> strength. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>> >>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40fronti > er.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile > .net >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From freethaught at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 10:56:36 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 06:56:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> <00bb01cf4ef4$8e243cc0$aa6cb640$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Julie and all, I'm glad you brought up the subject of help. I've often beenacused of acting NFB. The friend who makes such aconusations will actually tick me off wassuch -ments. Let me explane: My friend is new !our -munity. She, lets call her Sonya, thinks we are standoffish as a genneral rule. I am offended when Sonya lumps everyone in the NFB together who refuses help from others. She sees something wrong withthe way we sound as we decline assistance. I will be the first !say I don't always need help, but I have noticed even within myself, that I tend !throw my independence on people's faces at least some ofthe time. To my friend, there is notothing wrong with declining help, but there is a pro{{?#}}m with sounding rude, or dismissive when doing so. Even a turse "Ok, thanks, I got it," will put a sighted helper off. I ratherealize we are not all angry blind people, but it seems so to Sonya who reported !me never to have heardo one of our members politely decline assistance. She's always seen a tone, or a certain attitude about us. I try !pay attention to how I interact with others, especially after this feedback from an observant friend. I know some day, some time, maybe in New York later today, I will get lost and need help. I'd like !get it from someone who will do it with pleasure. One can't categorically clump allike members ofa group together, and assume all are apt !act in a certain way. But Sonya is observant, and socially aware to the point I had to take a step back, and look in the mirror. PS: Please forgive a couple of missing letters in this message. I am using a braille input device, and starting !learn Ueb. I am missar a com, and a couple of other words, and would rather encourage myself and others !use Ueb more. Even I, a Nemeth, and NUBS proponent, know I should be using it. It's here today, and will serve me well for use with electronic devices. Antonio M Guimaraes Jr. > On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:28 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > > Hi all, > > I agree with Darian and Jedi here, and I have a few things to add. As > for NFB and ACB, I would encourage anyone to experience an ACB > convention if possible. It wasn't my thing... And if you'd like to > know why, you can certainly email me off list. But there was > definitely good there. > > When I met friends in the NFB, they were the first who didn't accept > the "I'm blind" excuse. An NFB convention was the first place where I > could walk around and look for things without someone attempting to > help me. And within the Missouri affiliate, I began to feel like I > was an equal contributor to something. Maybe this is an idealistic > portrayal of what the NFB can do for people, and I realize that > everyone's circumstances are different. But the NFB believes in blind > people. > > Every organization is made of people, and those people make mistakes > and upset others. It's unfortunate that those people represent the > NFB, but the organization displays its belief in blind people > constantly. The leadership cannot be perfect. We have boards and > checks and balances, but things fail. The only thing we can do to > change it is speak up as we are doing now and work with those we trust > to change things. > > I want to also comment about real life and the NFB. Because of > various positions I have had within the NFB, I know how to write a > press release, where to begin a fundraising job, and how to facilitate > a large meeting. You can't tell me these skills aren't transferable > to other areas. I realize that everyone won't wish to participate in > everything, but finding your place in the organization begins with > meeting people and learning more about the different divisions and > affiliates. > > As for fundraising, if we want the programs, we need the funds to make > them happen. Maybe the organization attempts to do too much, but I > suppose there is a lot to do. I don't believe that people should only > contact their friends when it is donation time. I wish we didn't need > to do fundraisers all the time, but needing the money is a reality. > :) > >> On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >> Yeah; the off record meeting would be great. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 11:02 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> Hi Antonio, >> >> I worked Youth Slam in 2009 and had similar impressions. As I said in my >> evaluation of the program, I think Youth Slam should have been divided up >> into two sessions each with 100 students, perhaps at the beginning and end >> of the summer. Many youth summer programs in the mainstream world have two >> sessions to accommodate different summer schedules. It's not a blindness >> thing; having 300 kids in one program is incredibly chaotic and it is >> difficult for overworked mentors and staff to give each student the >> individual attention he or she might require. It is especially hard when >> students are trying to learn new blindness skills. A two-session setup >> would >> have served the same number of kids and I don't think would have cost any >> more money. I'm disappointed that suggestion wasn't implemented but hope >> they at least considered it. >> >> You also make an excellent point about the sociology of organizational >> change. I am teaching social psychology this semester and re-reading a lot >> of basic social psych theory, and learning just how powerful group norms >> can >> be. Sometimes a very dynamic leader can change a group's direction >> singlehandedly, but that is rare. It usually requires some kind of >> collective shift just to allow that person to gain power and then the >> organization needs to move in the leader's direction; otherwise reform >> attempts are not effective. While I agree that we shouldn't leave the >> organization altogether if we are frustrated with it, I also think that we >> need to take collective responsibility for change. It starts with >> discussion >> in a safe place where people can feel free to express opposing viewpoints, >> such as we have here on list. Perhaps those of us young adults who want to >> see specific changes made should set up an off-record meeting at convention >> to discuss this further. When some of us as individuals feel disillusioned, >> we can underestimate how many others might be feeling the same way but >> afraid to express it publicly. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >>> On 4/2/14, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea >>> where to start! >>> >>> I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that >>> I have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I >>> can say that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and >>> like I had nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this >>> organization. In short, I felt completely worthless and that I didn't >>> belong. Were there some people and experiences in the organization that >> helped me to feel this way? Yes. >>> But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the >>> federation were also to blame. >>> >>> My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. >>> I honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the >>> knowledge and experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like >>> many newcomers to organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became >>> enamored with every aspect of the organization and initially felt that >>> the organization and its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a >>> few experiences radically shifted my opinion in the opposite direction >>> and I felt completely disoriented. Self reflection caused me to >>> recognize a few things that might be relevant to this discussion. >>> >>> First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization >>> and the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the >>> Federation our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives >>> to support all blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan >>> used to say that, in everything that matters, we are one. I really >>> believe that is the attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we >>> fall short sometimes for one reason or another. But that is no reason >>> to quit. I really believe that it is better to stay and encourage >>> members around us to strive toward our stated ideals rather than to >>> leave with bitterness in our hearts and a bad attitude. And that is >>> not to say that encouraging others toward our organizational ideals >>> isn't challenging. I myself have faced that challenge and have come >>> out better for it. To tell you the truth, I believe the membership I >>> impacted also came out better as well. I also believe that we managed to >> build a stronger relationship as a result. >>> >>> I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself >>> within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as >>> a member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot >>> of personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a >>> member is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I >>> decided to do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much >>> happier for it. In the process of my personal reflection, I learned >>> that many other people in the organization decided to throw away >>> whatever rules they perceived for being a perfect Nfb member. And >>> strangely, I started to recognize overtime that there really were no >>> rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and that it was all in our heads. >> Are there judgmental people in the organization? >>> Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other >>> areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say >>> to hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about >>> them. That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy >>> make some good points and recommendations for what blind people can do >>> to better themselves. I am living proof that many of these >>> recommendations >> truly do make a difference. >>> It's up to you whether or not you are willing to assess your own life >>> to determine what recommendations will help you improve. Everyone has >>> room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down whatever >>> defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you might >>> find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful to >>> you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to >>> offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there >>> are also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday >>> be added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness >>> to speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the >>> Federation. >> But that can't happen if you decide to leave. >>> >>> I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be >>> undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our >>> organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The >>> field of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies >>> are willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We >>> have learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. >>> We now know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM >>> fields. Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making >>> some things easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we >>> advocate for ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, >> the way we express ourselves is going to change. >>> But that does not mean that our mission has changed. And yes, we have >>> taken on a few initiatives that cost a lot of money. In the current >>> budgetary climate, we do need to work harder at raising some funds in >>> order to keep these initiatives afloat. That said, I believe the >>> national organization recognizes that not everyone is as enthusiastic >> about fundraising as others. >>> I think the national organizations goals for us as members is for each >>> of us to participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our >>> participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal >>> contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the >>> organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to >>> sell things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the >>> blind campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for >>> you to do what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you >>> may have more enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as >>> advocacy or public education. So spend your time on those efforts >>> rather than moaning about our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I >>> tell you that there are members who moan about our public education >> efforts. So it goes both ways really. >>> >>> As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's >>> comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured >>> discovery perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no >>> perfect way to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about >>> teaching people the skills they need to make sense of the world and to >>> act in it given their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not >>> sensitive to a person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a >>> teacher who does not push a student out of their comfort zone is no >>> teacher at all. And it doesn't really matter if that teacher is a >>> travel instructor or a mentor at convention. The best teachers keep >>> students in a sweet spot where they are definitely challenged, but not >>> so challenged as to make the experience a total wash. If you are the >>> student so to speak and find yourself with a teacher who either >>> doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your ability, then it is >>> your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in that sweet >>> spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between your >>> actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, >>> if you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it >> wrong anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no >> matter what kind of blind person you are. >>> >>> At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that >>> those of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are >> not alone. >>> Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the >>> territory of being one member among many within a vast organization >>> whose membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep >>> talking to people about your experience as you will likely find >>> someone who has been there and who can be both a support system and an >>> advisor to you as to what you might do to find your place among us >>> once again. Like I said, I have been there before and I am still >>> working on finding my place. I'm not really sure when or how I will get >> there, but I am still confident that I will nonetheless. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I >>>> somehow repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to >> get quite >>>> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought >> up >>>> a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >>>> >>>> >>>> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two >>>> things primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >>>> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in >>>> hand >>>> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >>>> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >>>> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and >>>> want to be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, >>>> some not money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, >>>> some want to be members with no responsibility in the organization. >>>> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an >>>> effort to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet >>>> their needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things >>>> over time will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow >>>> members as people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >>>> >>>> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people >>>> in our chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. >>>> Sometimes we need to reach out to the right person, sometimes there >>>> is more that we can do and simply giving up won't solve the problem. >>>> It of course is totally possible that for whatever reason the >>>> leadership isn't very receptive to new people or new ideas. If you >>>> believe in what the federation stands for and believe what we do is >>>> worth the time you are willing to give, then finding the right outlet >>>> in some part of the organization is very important, and I hope that >> everyone here does this. >>>> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the >>>> movement. >>>> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of >>>> us know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we >>>> do all of these things are important. >>>> >>>> >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival >>>>> with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of >>>>> banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken >>>>> up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person >>>>> and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt >>>>> completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would >>>>> encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try >>>>> again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find >>>>> acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be >> sensitive to in the organization. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>>>> mentoor. RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent >>>>>>> issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, >>>>>>> featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >>>>>>> so-called friends from whom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>>>>> field, also national in scope. >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >>>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>>>>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>>>>> banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about >>>>>>> the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>>>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>>>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks >>>>>>> around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management >>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>>>>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >>>>>>> of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >>>>>>> taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like >>>>>>> the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe >>>>>>> it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it >>>>>>> is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40fronti >> er.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile >> .net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 11:00:00 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 07:00:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> Message-ID: <6EB13424-D5FA-4260-B5F7-3908CECD135B@gmail.com> Jedi, Extremely well said. Your ease with words, and adeptedness when writing on a mobile device both deserve my public acknowledgement for a job well done. May I say, tongue in cheek, that you inspire me. Smiles. Antonio M Guimaraes Jr. > On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:32 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > > Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea where to start! > > I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that I have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I can say that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I had nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In short, I felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there some people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this way? Yes. But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the federation were also to blame. > > My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. I honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the knowledge and experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers to organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every aspect of the organization and initially felt that the organization and its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences radically shifted my opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely disoriented. Self reflection caused me to recognize a few things that might be relevant to this discussion. > > First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization and the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the Federation our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to support all blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say that, in everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short sometimes for one reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really believe that it is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive toward our stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our hearts and a bad attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others toward our organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that challenge and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I believe the membership I impacted also came out better as well. I also believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. > > I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as a member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot of personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a member is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I decided to do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for it. In the process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other people in the organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived for being a perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize overtime that there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and that it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the organization? Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say to hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about them. That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make some good points and recommendations for what blind people can do to better themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations truly do make a difference. It's up to you whether or not you are willing to assess your own life to determine what recommendations will help you improve. Everyone has room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down whatever defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you might find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful to you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there are also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday be added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness to speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the Federation. But that can't happen if you decide to leave. > > I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The field of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We have learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We now know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making some things easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate for ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way we express ourselves is going to change. But that does not mean that our mission has changed. And yes, we have taken on a few initiatives that cost a lot of money. In the current budgetary climate, we do need to work harder at raising some funds in order to keep these initiatives afloat. That said, I believe the national organization recognizes that not everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. I think the national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us to participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to sell things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you to do what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have more enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or public education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning about our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are members who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways really. > > As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured discovery perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect way to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching people the skills they need to make sense of the world and to act in it given their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who does not push a student out of their comfort zone is no teacher at all. And it doesn't really matter if that teacher is a travel instructor or a mentor at convention. The best teachers keep students in a sweet spot where they are definitely challenged, but not so challenged as to make the experience a total wash. If you are the student so to speak and find yourself with a teacher who either doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your ability, then it is your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in that sweet spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between your actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, if you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it wrong anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no matter what kind of blind person you are. > > At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that those of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not alone. Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the territory of being one member among many within a vast organization whose membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to people about your experience as you will likely find someone who has been there and who can be both a support system and an advisor to you as to what you might do to find your place among us once again. Like I said, I have been there before and I am still working on finding my place. I'm not really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident that I will nonetheless. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I’m sorry if I somehow repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get quite caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >> >> >> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two things primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in hand with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take different things from the organization. Some love what we do and want to be a part of it, others can’t give time but can give money, some not money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want to be members with no responsibility in the organization. >> Honestly, I think it’s very important that we continue to make an effort to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over time will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >> >> Some of us feel like we don’t have a real connection with people in our chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we need to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can do and simply giving up won’t solve the problem. It of course is totally possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn’t very receptive to new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation stands for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is very important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the movement. some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of us know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do all of these things are important. >> >> >> Darian >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>> drawings and the like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>> Hello all. >>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>> Thanks. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joe" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>>> was >>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>> leadership >>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>> spirit, >>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>>>> that >>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>>>> it >>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >>>>> of >>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>>> more >>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>> >>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>> efforts >>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>> scope. >>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >>>>> the >>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>>> and >>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>> resources >>>>> we've already had. >>>>> >>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>> professionals. >>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >>>>> be >>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>>> when >>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>>>> to >>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>>>> to >>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>> >>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >>>>> >>>>> it >>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>>> guide >>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>>> own >>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>> you >>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>>> will >>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >>>>> or >>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>>>> exist. >>>>> >>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>> happier, >>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>> lesson >>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>> never >>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>> provide >>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>> couldn't >>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>>>> at >>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>>> strength. >>>>> >>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>>> the >>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>>> the >>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>> >>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>>> and >>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Apr 3 12:37:11 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 05:37:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> Good morning, Sam, and everyone, A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle illness! for today, Car At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >Hi Ariel, > I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which is >such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. > Sam > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >Silverman >Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > >I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could >work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is led >by blind people with mental illness. >Arielle > >On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred > > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ > > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along >with blindness. > > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental > > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and > > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how > > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of > > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how > > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a > > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow > > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. > > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is > > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day > > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if > > possible and most of all just our friendship. > > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric > > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know > > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a > > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program > > and how they do things. > > > > Sam > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth > > Taurasi > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > > > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing > > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because > > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that >guardianship. > > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they > > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case > > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects > > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship > > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, > > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But > > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such > > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" > > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if > > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. > > Beth > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > > > > Hello all, > > > > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and > > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities > > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a > > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the > > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then > > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with > > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it > > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > > > > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, > > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as > > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the > > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss > > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is > > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather > > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people > > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, > > that just doesn't make sense. > > > > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself > > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are > > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't > > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important > > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had > > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this > > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? > > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I > > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are > > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit > > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > > Sorry for the rant. > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > > happen again. > > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > > be the darling of > > > > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > > chapters and > > > > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > > examples of backing the wrong person. > > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and > > grew up in > > > > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the > > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > > withmultipledisabilities? > > > > > > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >special interest. > > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what > > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a > > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then > > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't > > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically > > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general > > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about whether >to keep having these religious invocations? > > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects > > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > > But the > > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the > > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > > occurring. > > > > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > > diverse. I also > > > > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > > they have > > > > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together > > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >people. > > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > > announcement and > > > > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > > purposes. > > > > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > > changes > > > > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > > what happens. > > Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > > multipledisabilities? > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help >them with. > > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. > > I > > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > > > > Best, > > Arielle > > > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > > Joe and others, > > > > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > > > > to > > be perfect. Still, some of what one > > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an > > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we > > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB > > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our > > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as > > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are > > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with > > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made > > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by > > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is > > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force > > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is > > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > > particularly on the job, all by itself. > > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > > at some point. > > However, I > > got > > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the > > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information > > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our > > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something > > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB > > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention > > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the > > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have > > attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. > > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind > > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We > > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this > > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. > > > > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > > difference. > > Frankly, > > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work > > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can > > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids > > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the > > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB >reader? > > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a > > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software > > on a computer screen instead of having > > > > to > > educate every person who writes > > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > > for us > > > > to > > control the Google self-driving cars > > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at > > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really > > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots > > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on > > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. > > But it also means that we change. > > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. > > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of > > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, > > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as > > an organization. > > > > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a > > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated > > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the > > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have > > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. > > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > > Legislating > > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate > > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter > > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't > > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. > > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > > > > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > > help of all members, though, to handle change. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Steve Jacobson > > > > > > > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > > > > Arielle, > > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > > > > Joe, > > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the > > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the > > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in > > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this > > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members > > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to > > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that > > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less > > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power > > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more > > still within our local chapters. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: > > > > Hi Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > > drawings and the like. > > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to > > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >sources. > > So > > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a > > loss of programs and resources. > > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment > > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that > > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the > > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all > > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. > > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in > > the organization. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > > wrote: > > Hello all. > > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own > > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size > > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RJ Sandefur > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > > mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >mentoor. > > RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > > > > > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there > > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in > > the company > > > > of > > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as > > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as > > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the > > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from > > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the > > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited > > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall > > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent >gatherings. > > > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it > > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather > > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen > > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that >effort. > > I > > found > > it > > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly > > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps > > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from > > so-called friends from whom > > > > I > > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > > fundraising campaigns. > > > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about > > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development > > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also > > national in scope. > > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > > > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > > professionals. > > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever > > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they > > shun the organization because they were turned away or because they > > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have > > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the > > organization. I had too much of > > > > a > > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have > > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could > > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most > > important, remaining true to the cause and not some > > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > > sustaining. > > > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't > > want > > > > it > > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know > > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the > > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner > > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the > > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys > > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will > > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The > > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > > > > to > > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and > > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to > > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world > > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen >to that. > > Whether > > or > > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want > > it to exist. > > > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what > > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They > > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our >camp. > > The > > few > > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > > lesson in financial management to you. > > > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only > > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of > > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste > > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher > > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I > > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to > > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. > > > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I > > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt > > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: > > > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what > > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > > > > Joe > > > > -- > > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > > > Visit my blog: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > > ndefur%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > > le%40frontier.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > > 40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso > > n%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > > mail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > > t104%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 > > 07%40comcast.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > > on.net > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > > com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com > > >--- >This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >protection is active. >http://www.avast.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From steve.jacobson at visi.com Thu Apr 3 18:14:56 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 13:14:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue Message-ID: If you are not disabled, you are going to tend to do a job you are relatively good at. At the very least, you will not likely work in a job to which you are not suited. You are not expected to perform well in whatever job you do. The minimum wage waiver takes away any incentive to find disabled people work that they are good ad. If john has CP and can't fold as many leaflets in an hour as can someone without CP, just pay him less, don't find him a job that is less dependent on physical dextarity. Maybe John with CP has other strengths that are less affected by his disability, but this is less likely to be considered since he can be paid less for doing a job he isn't well- suited. As a blind person, there are jobs that my lack of vision would make me a poor employee. That is true of any disability. Our disability can have an effect upon what we're good at. The minimum wage waiver takes away the need to try to find jobs that match the persons ability. In addition, while blind people are less affected by this provision now, it was much more common to pay many blind people in sheltered workshops less than the minimum wage not that long ago. When that practice was more common, there were a number of documented instances where time studies were manipulated to cause the individual to earn a lower wage than would have otherwise been the case. Finally, remember that most of the entities that pay less than the minimum wage get preferential treatment in bidding for government contracts. Many are charities who also get donations and pay fewer taxes. These advantages were given to them to compensate for the fact that there are some workers who are going to need extra training. There is no differentiation between people who are working toward compettitive employment and those for whom it has been decided they can't work compettitively. It could be that in extreme cases there will need to be some alternative status, and that's why what we've called for has a three year phase- out period for nonprofits. The law is now too brought, provides too few incentives to increase productivity or to look at how well matched a person is with his or her job, and provides too few checks and balances to insure that employees are treated fairly. There are something like fifty or more organizations representing other disabled groups who are in support of this legislation so this isn't just us. There have also been some articles in the past showing how certain other groups have been mistreated under this provision. Of course, the fact that this provision doesn't provide real incentives to increase a workers productivity doesn't mean that some of the agencies involved are not trying to do the right thing. Still, we need something better, and while many of us are not affected right now, we have been in the past and we could be again in the future. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:10:03 -0400, Andy wrote: >I thought I'd chime in here. >Arielle, you say: >"Some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no >other disabilities." >If this is true, I'm baffled as to why NFB is not using this approach >for lobbying. Every article I've ever seen has discussed multiple >disabilities. I think the NFB would have a stronger argument if they >could find people with blindness as the only disability, and could >procure evidence that they were, essentially, being exploited. I read >an article, for instance, about a woman with cerebral palsy and >blindness. The highest paycheck she earned was somewhere around $18. >I've read many other such articles that detail similar cases. >You also say that productivity is subjective. I certainly agree. >However, according to various articles, companies have been performing >tests to try and find an acceptable salary based on the capabilities >of the employees at their specific jobs. I would argue that employers >are doing the best they can with the employees they have working for >them. In one article I read, for instance, a woman's job was to hang >clothes. Her salary was adjusted based on how well she did the job - >essentially, her productivity. >Finally, you mention companies having prejudiced attitudes towards the >disabled. I disagree. If these certificates were declared unlawful, >then, from a business perspective, the only option is to lay off the >employees. If an employee makes, say, an average of only a few >pennies per hour, paying that employee the federal (or state) minimum >wage is an exponential increase in their salary. This is obviously >fantastic news for the employees; however, the business can't possibly >sustain that model. Thus, the only option is to lay off the >employees. I'm failing to understand how this helps them in any >significant way; indeed, I would argue that, without a job, they would >surely be hurting. >On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> >> I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short >> answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are >> blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee >> can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental >> disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can >> be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, >> the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the >> disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled >> employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum >> wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum >> wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled >> and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive >> enough. >> >> I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent >> out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with >> developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage >> or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend >> that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on >> their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB >>> is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to >>> me. >>> >>> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >>> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >>> job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as >>> cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty >>> clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. >>> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times >>> more than you were paying them for the same amount of >>> work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. >>> >>> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >>> they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them >>> from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these >>> people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their >>> lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right >>> now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. >>> >>> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it >>> seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the >>> employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't >>> make sense. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 23:09:33 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 17:09:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes to all the above. In my mind there are two problems here. First, it's assumed that disabled employees as a rule aren't productive enough to warrant minimum wage. I'm not convinced that assumption is true, but none of Goodwill's arguments for subminimum wages can hold up unless we all agree that disabled employees as a rule aren't productive enough. It's probably safe to say that any employee who's in a job he or she isn't good at will be less productive, and that a disabled employee will be less productive if he or she isn't properly accommodated. Which leads to my second issue: If a disabled employee isn't productive enough to warrant minimum wage, there are lots of other solutions besides paying him or her less. As Steve and others said, perhaps this employee belongs in a different job, or perhaps the job site or duties need to be modified so the disabled employee can perform better, or extra training and support needs to be provided. The subminimum wage laws reflect outdated ideas about disability which frame disability as being a problem with a person rather than a problem with how well the situation meets that person's needs. If you imagine doing your schoolwork without a screen reader or alternative format materials, and then think of how well you can do your work when those accommodations are in place, you'll see what I mean. Arielle On 4/3/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > If you are not disabled, you are going to tend to do a job you are > relatively good at. At the very least, you > will not likely work in a job to which you are not suited. You are not > expected to perform well in whatever job > you do. The minimum wage waiver takes away any incentive to > find disabled people work that they are good ad. If john has CP and can't > fold as many leaflets in an hour as can > someone without CP, just pay him less, don't find him a job that is less > dependent on physical dextarity. Maybe > John with CP has other strengths that are less affected by his > disability, but this is less likely to be considered since he can be paid > less for doing a job he isn't well- > suited. As a blind person, there are jobs that my lack of vision would make > me a poor employee. That is true of > any > disability. Our disability can have an effect upon what we're good at. The > minimum wage waiver takes away the > need to try to find jobs that match the persons ability. > > In addition, while blind people are less affected by this provision now, it > was much more common to pay many blind > people in sheltered workshops less than the minimum wage not that long ago. > When that practice was more common, > there were a number of documented instances where time studies were > manipulated to cause the individual to earn a > lower wage than would have otherwise been the case. Finally, remember that > most of the entities that pay less > than > the minimum wage get preferential treatment in bidding for government > contracts. Many are charities who also get > donations and pay fewer taxes. These advantages were given to them to > compensate for the fact that there are some > workers who are > going to need extra training. There is no differentiation between people > who are working toward compettitive > employment and those for whom it has been decided they can't work > compettitively. It could be that in extreme > cases there will need to be some alternative status, and that's why what > we've called for has a three year phase- > out period for nonprofits. > > The law is now too brought, provides too few incentives to increase > productivity or to look at how well matched a > person is with his or her job, and provides too few checks and balances to > insure that employees are treated > fairly. There are something like fifty or more organizations representing > other disabled groups who are in > support of this legislation so this isn't just us. There have also been > some articles in the past showing how > certain other > groups have been mistreated under this provision. Of course, the fact that > this provision doesn't provide real > incentives to increase a workers productivity doesn't mean that some of the > agencies involved are not trying to do > the right thing. Still, we need something better, and while many of us are > not affected right now, we have been > in the past and we could be again in the future. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:10:03 -0400, Andy wrote: > >>I thought I'd chime in here. >>Arielle, you say: >>"Some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no >>other disabilities." >>If this is true, I'm baffled as to why NFB is not using this approach >>for lobbying. Every article I've ever seen has discussed multiple >>disabilities. I think the NFB would have a stronger argument if they >>could find people with blindness as the only disability, and could >>procure evidence that they were, essentially, being exploited. I read >>an article, for instance, about a woman with cerebral palsy and >>blindness. The highest paycheck she earned was somewhere around $18. >>I've read many other such articles that detail similar cases. > >>You also say that productivity is subjective. I certainly agree. >>However, according to various articles, companies have been performing >>tests to try and find an acceptable salary based on the capabilities >>of the employees at their specific jobs. I would argue that employers >>are doing the best they can with the employees they have working for >>them. In one article I read, for instance, a woman's job was to hang >>clothes. Her salary was adjusted based on how well she did the job - >>essentially, her productivity. > >>Finally, you mention companies having prejudiced attitudes towards the >>disabled. I disagree. If these certificates were declared unlawful, >>then, from a business perspective, the only option is to lay off the >>employees. If an employee makes, say, an average of only a few >>pennies per hour, paying that employee the federal (or state) minimum >>wage is an exponential increase in their salary. This is obviously >>fantastic news for the employees; however, the business can't possibly >>sustain that model. Thus, the only option is to lay off the >>employees. I'm failing to understand how this helps them in any >>significant way; indeed, I would argue that, without a job, they would >>surely be hurting. > > >>On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short >>> answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are >>> blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee >>> can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental >>> disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can >>> be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, >>> the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the >>> disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled >>> employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum >>> wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum >>> wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled >>> and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive >>> enough. >>> >>> I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent >>> out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with >>> developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage >>> or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend >>> that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on >>> their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB >>>> is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to >>>> me. >>>> >>>> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >>>> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >>>> job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as >>>> cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty >>>> clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. >>>> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times >>>> more than you were paying them for the same amount of >>>> work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. >>>> >>>> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >>>> they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them >>>> from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these >>>> people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their >>>> lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right >>>> now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. >>>> >>>> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it >>>> seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the >>>> employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't >>>> make sense. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 01:24:16 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan Silveira) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:24:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism In-Reply-To: <75033B47-E846-4A38-AE7A-3FD5753BAE2D@gmail.com> References: <3A57E6874C8F44CF8D04E4CD20992A5E@HP30910210001> <55588B3EE3B2496DB8B824E7D0B66100@OwnerPC> <75033B47-E846-4A38-AE7A-3FD5753BAE2D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <099BD096-0105-4E76-BD7A-5E50532E360F@gmail.com> Hi All, While I agree that some of the philosophies of the NFB (e.g. blindfold training, maintaining braille literacy and the “empowering yourself” approach) are, indeed, conservative ideas and approaches, the civil rights portion of the NFB takes a very liberal and rather belligerent approach. I do not say that all of the members of the NFB think and act this way, but there is a group of members (I have heard it called the “advocacy arm”) who seem to enjoy banding together and fighting the rest of the world for what they consider to be their rights. I am often told, “That is an outsider’s perspective of our organization. We’re not really like that.” To that, I say: the “outsiders” had to gain that perspective somehow. They did not just make it up. While I am proud to be a member of the NFB, I see no need to advertise my pride in the organization, nor to form some kind of army for the blind and either virtually or realistically march for our rights. The group within the organization which takes this liberal approach seem, to me, to purposefully find the most trivial things with which they see a problem and then shout about how we are not equal and how the government or a school needs to change for us, but that there is no reason whatsoever for us to try to work with them. If a website is inaccessible or a certain program does not work the way you want it to work, shouting about civil rights is not the answer—working with the developers to make the website or program accessible is. The only reason one should fight the civil rights battle is if they are truly being denied a human right. examples of situations in which a civil rights battle might be appropriate are: if a person is not admitted into a school because they are blind or not admitted into a restaurant they really wanted to go to because they had a service dog. Even then, publicizing the discrimination and suing the organization is a last resort. There was a speech given by Dr. Mauer recently (I believe some time in the last year) during which he enumerated the legal civil rights victories various blind students have had. While listening to this speech, I felt as if we were fighting some kind of war—the blind minority against the sighted majority. This is not a war, fellow students. We are not fighting. Those who continuously cry for equality simply want to be greater than those whom they feel oppress them. Equality is gained when both sides meet in the middle and come up with a solution. It cannot, it will not be established if one side continuously fights the other, for eventually one side will emerge victorious and the other will be defeated. Rather than taking the liberal approach, we, the minority, should learn to work with the sighted majority. If we want them to work for us, making things more accessible, then we need to be able to work with them and to make compromises. Only then will we have equality. Ryan L. Silveira Corresponding Secretary Ohio Association of Blind Students A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it Means to be Blind” (203) 731-7580 ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:24 AM, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: > Thank you Ashley. > Lora > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >> >> Melissa, >> I agree and I hope the shift is toward educating companies to make their software accessible and doing outreach so they know our capabilities. >> We need to focus more on employment, definitely. Due to the inaccessible software on pcs, electronics going touch screen and employer attitudes, we are not increasing our employment rate. >> It used to be you could be a receptionist or admin assistant or secretary as a blind person, good entry level job. This was in the 90s when we had pcs, but no digital touch screens. Okay, now, you have inaccessible equipment; scanners, copiers, and printers have screens one has to read to operate them beyond the basics. Even phones now have menus we cannot read. We can operate them and make calls, sure, but to go change settings, we cannot do that. >> Digital things has caused inaccessibility. And, jobs blind people used to have are disappearing. Such jobs include secretaries, switch board operators, and receptionists. Dark room technicians, piano tuners, and >> chair caning are disappearing too. >> >> I think without more of a move to have accessible software, we are going to be left behind. >> Every job ad tells me I need skills in database management. How can we compete with inaccessible databases? Not even MS Access is accessible! >> >> As to conservatism, indeed it’s a conservative group. I knew this the second meeting I went to 15 years back. Much of the self empowerment message spoken about at the virginia state convention is conservative. Yes, it is like yeah everyone can be successful in whatever they want. If you cannot get your dreams, you need to have more skills or more confidence; just as conservatives like rush Limboull say get up and out there, the NFB says if you cannot succeed its your fault. As Joe pointed out, I no longer can follow this. I have skills and a college degree, yet I cannot possibly meet all job qualifications because of visual barriers. Another example is many communications jobs I want require adobe creative suite use. I cannot use adobe photoshop or adobe end design. Never will happen, even if I improve my computer skills; some things just cannot be done with a screen reader. I could use other text based databases if they were accessible though; such as raisers edge, donor perfect, CRM, and SalesForce. >> >> I do like the can do attitude of NFB leaders, but out in the real world, having the blindness skills simply is no longer enough to suceed. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: melissa R Green >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:45 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >> >> I like the dual aproach as well. I have stated this before, and I don't >> have a concrete answer. I think that we need to also continue to focus on >> the employment of blind people more than we have done. I was very glad that >> the job fair was occurring at convention again, and that there was a job >> fair at washington seminar. In my opinion, this is a more balanced aproach >> to assisting blind people in becoming successful. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 3:12 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >> >> >> I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy >> itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" >> mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also >> historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind >> including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal >> position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've >> picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and >> pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in >> addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. >> In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent >> years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think >> the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual >> approach of empowering blind people while also making environments >> more hospitable for us. >> >> Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on >> themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the >> old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often >> stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are >> today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider >> (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out >> to other blind people for help. >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >>> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb. >>> Great point Ashley. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> Kaiti, >>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions >>> too. >>> >>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy >>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on >>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is >>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; >>> get >>> a job. >>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you >>> can >>> be financially independent through other means with out the job. >>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances >>> who >>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a >>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is >>> doing >>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like >>> raisers edge. >>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps >>> with no outside help. >>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and >>> ACB >>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these >>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things >>> may change soon. >>> >>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope >>> this >>> does not happen again. >>> >>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >>> disability groups. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may >>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those >>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to >>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >>> people, >>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish >>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with >>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from >>> the >>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>> >>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but >>> I'm >>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed >>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, >>> it's >>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive >>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, >>> but >>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >>> >>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>> unitarian >>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than >>> the >>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy, >>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was >>> not >>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even >>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know >>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent >>> part of convention? >>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would >>> hate >>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to >>> pretend >>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve >>> the >>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >>> circumstances >>> doesn't seem right. >>> Sorry for the rant. >>> >>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>>> happen again. >>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>>> be the darling of >>>> >>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>>> chapters and >>>> >>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >>>> up in >>>> >>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>>> withmultipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> >>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>>>> is not occurring. >>>>> >>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>>>> diverse. I also >>>>> >>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>>>> they have >>>>> >>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>>> transgendered people. >>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>>> announcement and >>>>> >>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>>> social purposes. >>>>> >>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>>> changes >>>>> >>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>>> what happens. >>>>> Have a blessed day. >>>>> Best Wishes >>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>>> multipledisabilities? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>>> help them with. >>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>> Joe and others, >>>>>> >>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>>> >>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>>> having >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>>>> for us >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>>>> training. >>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>>> education. >>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>>> >>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this >>>>>>>> is >>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>>> 0visi.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 03:21:03 2014 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 22:21:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism Message-ID: <533e2536.6834ec0a.2036.25af@mx.google.com> Ryan,=20that=20was=20a=20great=20post=20and=20I=20pretty=20much=20agree=20w= ith=20 everything.=20I=20do=20believe=20that=20some=20things=20the=20NFB=20deals=20= with=20are=20 genuine=20civil=20rights=20issues,=20such=20as=20the=20subminimum=20wage=20= issue=20 (it's=20slave=20labor=20no=20matter=20what.)=20But=20if=20there's=20an=20in= accessible=20 website,=20I'm=20not=20gonna=20flip=20out=20about=20it.=20I=20don't=20have= =20time=20for=20 that.=20We=20all=20have=20our=20lives=20to=20live=20that=20are=20separate=20= from=20 blindness=20or=20the=20NFB.=20I've=20seen=20people=20who=20live=20for=20the= =20 organization,=20who've=20memorized=20all=20the=20speeches=20and=20the=20his= tory.=20 I=20enjoy=20being=20a=20part=20of=20the=20NFB,=20but=20it's=20not=20my=20li= fe.=20I=20just=20 work=20around=20things=20like=20inaccessability=20by=20either=20using=20ano= ther=20 website=20or=20getting=20a=20reader=20to=20help=20me=20out.=20Unless=20it's= =20a=20MAJOR,=20 and=20I=20mean=20EPICALLY=20MAJOR,=20issue,=20fighting=20and=20suing=20is=20= not=20the=20 answer.=20Self-advocacy=20is.=20And=20I'm=20talking=20about=20the=20kind=20= of=20 advocacy=20where=20you=20politely=20approach=20the=20offending=20person/gro= up=20 and=20hold=20a=20civil=20conversation=20with=20them=20where=20you=20calmly= =20and=20 eloquently=20state=20your=20problem,=20using=20logic=20instead=20of=20threa= ts=20or=20 belligerence.=20These=20are=20just=20my=20thoughts,=20and=20I=20look=20forw= ard=20to=20 more=20of=20this=20discussion. Yours=20sincerely, Sophie =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Ryan=20Silveira=20=20wrote: =20Melissa, =20I=20agree=20and=20I=20hope=20the=20shift=20is=20toward=20educating=20com= panies=20to=20 make=20their=20software=20accessible=20and=20doing=20outreach=20so=20they=20= know=20 our=20capabilities. =20We=20need=20to=20focus=20more=20on=20employment,=20definitely.=20Due=20t= o=20the=20 inaccessible=20software=20on=20pcs,=20=20electronics=20going=20touch=20scre= en=20and=20 employer=20attitudes,=20we=20are=20not=20increasing=20our=20employment=20ra= te. =20It=20used=20to=20be=20you=20could=20be=20a=20receptionist=20or=20admin=20= assistant=20or=20 secretary=20as=20a=20blind=20person,=20good=20entry=20level=20job.=20This=20= was=20in=20 the=2090s=20when=20we=20had=20pcs,=20but=20no=20digital=20touch=20screens.= =20Okay,=20now,=20 you=20have=20inaccessible=20equipment;=20scanners,=20copiers,=20and=20print= ers=20 have=20screens=20one=20has=20to=20read=20to=20operate=20them=20beyond=20the= =20basics.=20 Even=20phones=20now=20have=20menus=20we=20cannot=20read.=20We=20can=20opera= te=20them=20 and=20make=20calls,=20sure,=20but=20to=20go=20change=20settings,=20we=20can= not=20do=20 that. =20Digital=20things=20has=20caused=20inaccessibility.=20And,=20jobs=20blind= =20 people=20used=20to=20have=20are=20disappearing.=20Such=20jobs=20include=20 secretaries,=20switch=20board=20operators,=20and=20receptionists.=20Dark=20= room=20 technicians,=20piano=20tuners,=20and =20chair=20caning=20are=20disappearing=20too. =20I=20think=20without=20more=20of=20a=20move=20to=20have=20accessible=20so= ftware,=20we=20 are=20going=20to=20be=20left=20behind. =20Every=20job=20ad=20tells=20me=20I=20need=20skills=20in=20database=20mana= gement.=20How=20 can=20we=20compete=20with=20inaccessible=20databases?=20Not=20even=20MS=20A= ccess=20is=20 accessible! =20As=20to=20conservatism,=20indeed=20it=92s=20a=20conservative=20group.=20= I=20knew=20 this=20the=20second=20meeting=20I=20went=20to=2015=20years=20back.=20Much=20= of=20the=20self=20 empowerment=20message=20spoken=20about=20at=20the=20virginia=20state=20conv= ention=20 is=20conservative.=20Yes,=20it=20is=20like=20yeah=20everyone=20can=20be=20s= uccessful=20 in=20whatever=20they=20want.=20If=20you=20cannot=20get=20your=20dreams,=20y= ou=20need=20to=20 have=20more=20skills=20or=20more=20confidence;=20just=20as=20conservatives= =20like=20 rush=20Limboull=20say=20get=20up=20and=20out=20there,=20the=20NFB=20says=20= if=20you=20 cannot=20succeed=20its=20your=20fault.=20As=20Joe=20pointed=20out,=20I=20no= =20longer=20 can=20follow=20this.=20I=20have=20skills=20and=20a=20college=20degree,=20ye= t=20I=20cannot=20 possibly=20meet=20all=20job=20qualifications=20because=20of=20visual=20barr= iers.=20 Another=20example=20is=20many=20communications=20jobs=20I=20want=20require= =20adobe=20 creative=20suite=20use.=20I=20cannot=20use=20adobe=20photoshop=20or=20adobe= =20end=20 design.=20Never=20will=20happen,=20even=20if=20I=20improve=20my=20computer= =20skills;=20 some=20things=20just=20cannot=20be=20done=20with=20a=20screen=20reader.=20I= =20could=20use=20 other=20text=20based=20databases=20if=20they=20were=20accessible=20though;= =20such=20 as=20raisers=20edge,=20donor=20perfect,=20CRM,=20and=20SalesForce. =20I=20do=20like=20the=20can=20do=20attitude=20of=20NFB=20leaders,=20but=20= out=20in=20the=20 real=20world,=20having=20the=20blindness=20skills=20simply=20is=20no=20long= er=20 enough=20to=20suceed. =20Ashley =20-----Original=20Message-----=20From:=20melissa=20R=20Green =20Sent:=20Wednesday,=20April=2002,=202014=206:45=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20NFB=20and=20conservatism/liberalism =20I=20like=20the=20dual=20aproach=20as=20well.=20=20I=20have=20stated=20th= is=20before,=20and=20 I=20don't =20have=20a=20concrete=20answer.=20=20I=20think=20that=20we=20need=20to=20a= lso=20continue=20 to=20focus=20on =20the=20employment=20of=20blind=20people=20more=20than=20we=20have=20done.= =20=20I=20was=20 very=20glad=20that =20the=20job=20fair=20was=20occurring=20at=20convention=20again,=20and=20th= at=20there=20 was=20a=20job =20fair=20at=20washington=20seminar.=20=20In=20my=20opinion,=20this=20is=20= a=20more=20 balanced=20aproach =20to=20assisting=20blind=20people=20in=20becoming=20successful.=20=20Have= =20a=20 blessed=20day. =20Best=20Wishes =20Melissa=20R.=20Green=20and=20Pj =20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----=20From:=20"Arielle=20Silverman"=20 =20wrote:= =20The=20boot=20strap=20theory=20is=20one=20I=20had=20not=20heard=20of=20in= =20reference=20to=20 the=20nfb. =20Great=20point=20Ashley. =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20nabs-l=20[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]=20On=20Behalf=20Of=20= Ashley =20Bramlett =20Sent:=20Wednesday,=20April=2002,=202014=201:38=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20How=20can=20NFB=20better=20include =20peoplewithmultipledisabilities? =20Kaiti, =20The=20NFB=20is=20overall=20conservative.=20It=20is=20manefisted=20in=20s= tate=20 conventions =20too. =20Christianity=20is=20the=20dominant=20religion=20and=20therefore=20gets=20= recognition. =20I=20hear=20conservative=20positions=20all=20the=20time.=20Its=20rooted=20= in=20the=20 philosophy =20too.=20The=20idea=20that=20we=20have=20to=20get=20out=20there=20and=20in= tegrate=20into=20 society=20on =20terms=20of=20equality=20and=20make=20a=20lot=20of=20money=20to=20support= =20the=20 organization=20is =20kind=20of=20conservative.=20I=20hear=20a=20lot=20about=20jobs.=20Don't=20= rely=20on=20 government; =20get =20a=20job. =20Well,=20while=20I=20do=20support=20self=20sufficiency,=20I=20do=20also=20= recognize=20 that=20you =20can =20be=20financially=20independent=20through=20other=20means=20with=20out=20= the=20job. =20What=20about=20stay=20at=20home=20moms?=20What=20about=20those=20with=20= family=20 inherritances =20who =20don't=20need=20to=20work?=20What=20about=20those=20with=20medical=20issu= es=20which=20 precludes=20a =20full=20work=20day?=20Well,=20its=20not=20so=20easy=20to=20get=20a=20job= =20and=20frankly,=20 Nfb=20is =20doing =20nothing=20to=20address=20the=20=20software=20inaccessibility=20of=20comm= on=20 databases=20like =20raisers=20edge. =20The=20philosophy=20=20is=20like=20the=20idea=20of=20pulling=20yourself=20= up=20by=20your=20 bootstraps =20with=20no=20outside=20help. =20So,=20if=20you=20have=20not=20realized=20this,=20the=20organization=20is= =20 conservative=20and =20ACB =20is=20more=20liberal.=20This=20does=20not=20bother=20me=20much=20as=20I=20= was=20raised=20 with=20these =20values,=20but=20as=20more=20young=20people=20come=20into=20NFB,=20it=20m= ay=20bother=20 them.=20Things =20may=20change=20soon. =20That=20is=20sad=20about=20the=20LGBT=20social=20group=20being=20quashed.= =20I=20am=20not=20one=20for=20gay=20marriage,=20but=20see=20no=20harm=20in= =20a=20social=20 group.=20hope =20this =20does=20not=20happen=20again. =20Also,=20I=20agree=20with=20posts=20that=20say=20we=20need=20to=20work=20= more=20=20with=20 other =20disability=20groups. =20Ashley =20-----Original=20Message----- =20From:=20Kaiti=20Shelton =20Sent:=20Tuesday,=20April=2001,=202014=2010:30=20PM =20To:=20National=20Association=20of=20Blind=20Students=20mailing=20list =20Subject:=20Re:=20[nabs-l]=20How=20can=20NFB=20better=20include =20peoplewithmultipledisabilities? =20Hello=20all, =20In=20answer=20to=20Carly's=20question=20about=20connections=20between=20= the=20 blind,=20(we=20may =20call=20them=20"just=20blind"=20for=20the=20purposes=20of=20this=20conver= sation),=20 and=20those =20with=20blindness=20and=20other=20disabilities,=20or=20other=20disabiliti= es=20 without =20blindness,=20I=20think=20organizational=20relationships=20are=20the=20st= arting=20 point=20to =20working=20interpersonally.=20=20Much=20like=20the=20NFB=20is=20a=20huge= =20group=20of=20 blind =20people, =20and=20is=20often=20used=20as=20a=20catalyst=20for=20working=20interperso= nally=20to=20 accomplish =20tasks,=20other=20groups=20are=20the=20same.=20=20If=20we=20want=20to=20w= ork=20 interpersonally=20with =20the=20deaf,=20persay,=20then=20we=20need=20to=20go=20where=20the=20deaf= =20are=20and=20 start=20forming =20relationships=20with=20that=20group.=20=20Once=20repore=20is=20establish= ed,=20 people=20from =20the =20various=20organizations=20can=20work=20interpersonally.=20=20Darian=20mi= ght=20 have=20phrased =20it=20better=20than=20I=20did,=20but=20it's=20the=20same=20sort=20of=20vi= ew. =20I=20was=20admittedly=20not=20around=20for=20that=20episode=20that=20Desi= ree=20 described,=20but =20I'm =20really=20sad=20to=20hear=20that=20it=20happened.=20=20Especially=20since= ,=20as=20 Arielle=20pointed =20out,=20there=20are=20some=20pretty=20out=20there=20groups=20like=20the=20= car=20one.=20=20I=20 mean, =20it's =20okay=20for=20people=20to=20get=20together=20and=20discuss=20cars=20that= =20we=20can't=20 even=20drive =20(yet=20at=20least),=20so=20their=20discussion=20is=20purely=20based=20on= =20 mechanical=20and =20aesthetic=20knowledge=20of=20the=20cars=20rather=20than=20a=20personal=20= user=20 experience, =20but =20a=20support=20group=20for=20blind=20people=20who=20are=20seen=20as=20a=20= minority=20for=20 another =20reason=20is=20not=20okay?=20=20To=20me,=20that=20just=20doesn't=20make=20= sense. =20I'm=20not=20particularly=20religious,=20and=20probably=20would=20label=20= myself=20 as =20unitarian =20even=20though=20I=20was=20raised=20catholic=20if=20I=20had=20to=20label= =20myself=20at=20 all,=20so=20I =20realize=20my=20personal=20views=20on=20things=20of=20that=20nature=20are= =20more=20 liberal=20than =20the =20views=20of=20others.=20=20However,=20conservatives=20aren't=20always=20g= oing=20to=20 be=20happy, =20just=20as=20liberals=20aren't,=20and=20it=20is=20important=20that=20we=20= compromise.=20=20 I=20was =20not =20under=20the=20impression=20that=20the=20NFB=20had=20any=20religious=20af= filiation,=20 and=20even =20remember=20asking=20someone=20what=20Invocation=20was,=20because=20I=20r= eally=20 didn't=20know =20the=20term.=20=20Even=20in=20this=20light,=20why=20is=20Christianity=20m= ade=20such=20a=20 prevalent =20part=20of=20convention? =20What=20about=20those=20who=20practice=20Islam,=20Judism,=20or=20anything= =20else?=20=20 I=20would =20hate =20for=20a=20majority=20faction=20within=20the=20NFB=20to=20shun=20double=20= minority=20 members, =20because=20after=20all,=20we're=20all=20minorities=20in=20the=20greater=20= world,=20so=20 to =20pretend =20that=20those=20who=20are=20different=20from=20us=20are=20less=20valuable= =20or=20don't=20 deserve =20the =20right=20to=20organize=20a=20group=20to=20suit=20their=20unique=20set=20o= f=20needs=20or =20circumstances =20doesn't=20seem=20right. =20Sorry=20for=20the=20rant. =20On=204/1/14,=20melissa=20R=20Green=20=20wrote: =20Arielle=20once=20again.=20=20You=20are=20so=20right!=20=20I=20also=20hop= e=20that=20will=20 never =20happen=20again. =20Another=20way=20to=20look=20at=20this=20is,=20many=20devisions=20get=20s= tarted=20and=20 then =20they=20just=20fall=20by=20the=20waist=20side.=20=20Noone=20will=20keep=20= it=20going.=20=20 IMO=20the =20devisions=20are=20started=20by=20people=20that=20have=20to=20be=20in=20t= he=20spotlight=20 and =20be=20the=20darling=20of =20the=20Federation=20and=20the=20devision=20suffers.=20=20The=20same=20hap= pens=20with =20chapters=20and =20state=20devisions.=20=20Then=20everyone=20is=20shaking=20their=20head=20= and=20 wondering =20what=20happened=20and=20why=20this=20person=20didn't=20work=20out.=20=20= I=20could=20give =20examples=20of=20backing=20the=20wrong=20person. =20Finally,=20I=20always=20felt=20badly=20for=20those=20children=20who=20we= re=20born=20 and=20grew =20up=20in =20the=20federation.=20=20They=20have=20a=20lot=20of=20pressure=20on=20them= =20to=20be=20the=20 darling =20of=20the=20federation.=20=20Have=20a=20blessed=20day. =20Best=20Wishes =20Melissa=20R.=20Green=20and=20Pj =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Arielle=20Silverman"=20=20wrote: =20what=20a=20good=20topic.=20=20I=20know=20that=20there=20is=20a=20blind=20= rollers=20list.=20=20 But =20the=20devision=20never=20came=20into=20being.=20=20I=20think=20that=20th= e=20committee=20 of =20the=20under=20served=20is=20supposed=20to=20address=20these=20issues.=20= =20However=20 this =20is=20not=20occurring. =20I=20agree=20that=20nfb=20has=20a=20primary=20focus=20of=20blindness.=20= =20Yet,=20we=20are=20 a =20diverse=20population.=20=20So=20I=20believe=20that=20the=20nfb=20needs=20= to=20become=20 more =20diverse.=20=20I=20also =20believe=20that=20the=20leadership=20are=20going=20by=20their=20assumptio= ns=20that=20 if =20they=20have =20a=20devision=20dedicated=20to=20a=20certain=20grou=20that=20it=20will=20= not=20do=20 anything =20to=20assist=20blind=20people.=20=20For=20example,=20years=20ago,=20a=20g= roup=20came =20together=20and=20wanted=20to=20form=20a=20devision=20for=20blind=20gay=20= bisexual=20 and =20transgendered=20people. =20I=20was=20at=20the=20convention=20when=20doctor=20Maurer=20was=20reading= =20the =20announcement=20and =20then=20he=20ripped=20it=20up=20in=20the=20middle=20of=20reading=20it.=20= =20Many=20people=20 left =20the=20federation=20because=20they=20felt=20that=20they=20were=20not=20wa= nted=20and=20 that =20the=20leadership=20assumed=20that=20it=20would=20be=20a=20devision=20str= ictly=20for =20social=20purposes. =20Many=20people=20are=20hopeful=20that=20the=20new=20president=20will=20br= ing=20many=20 more =20changes =20and=20lots=20of=20diversity=20to=20the=20federation.=20=20I=20am=20going= =20to=20wait=20and=20 see =20what=20happens. =20Have=20a=20blessed=20day. =20Best=20Wishes =20Melissa=20R.=20Green=20and=20Pj =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Arielle=20Silverman"=20=20wrote: =20Joe=20and=20others, =20It=20is=20not=20my=20position=20that=20anything=20said=20about=20the=20N= FB=20that=20is =20negative=20is=20wrong.=20=20Organizations=20are=20made=20up=20of=20human= =20beings=20 and=20we =20are=20not=20perfect=20so=20our=20creations=20are=20not=20likely=20going =20to =20be=20perfect.=20=20Still,=20some=20of=20what=20one=20person=20may=20seem= =20as=20wrong=20=20 isn't =20so=20much=20a=20matter=20of=20right=20or=20wrong=20as=20perspective=20an= d=20opinion.=20=20 We =20embarked=20a=20good=20while=20back=20now=20on=20an=20expansion=20that=20= has=20resulted=20 in =20the=20need=20to=20raise=20more=20funds=20than=20we=20used=20to=20have=20= to=20raise.=20=20I=20 do =20not=20think=20I=20am=20alone=20among=20NFB=20supporters=20in=20recognizi= ng=20that=20 this =20is=20a=20risk.=20=20When=20you=20look=20at=20our=20budget=20and=20that=20= of=20the=20ACB=20and=20 then =20compare=20legislative=20successes=20as=20you=20did,=20Joe,=20it=20is=20c= ertainly=20 clear =20that=20legislative=20successes=20are=20not=20proportional=20to=20one's=20= budget. =20Whether=20I=20completely=20agree=20with=20legislation=20ACB=20passes=20o= r=20not,=20I =20recognize=20that=20the=20ACB=20has=20made=20contributions.=20=20However,= =20I=20have=20 felt =20for=20some=20time=20and=20I=20feel=20particularly=20more=20so=20now=20th= at=20our=20 problems =20can't=20be=20solved=20by=20legislation=20alone.=20=20Let's=20take=20acce= ssibility,=20 for =20example.=20=20There=20is=20a=20lot=20of=20emphasis=20on=20getting=20more= =20legislation =20passed=20that=20will=20force=20software=20to=20be=20accessible,=20for=20= example.=20=20 I =20happen=20to=20believe=20this=20is=20necessary,=20but=20it=20isn't=20goin= g=20to=20make =20everything=20better=20for=20us,=20particularly=20on=20the=20job,=20all=20= by=20 itself. =20If=20we=20are=20going=20to=20make=20any=20serious=20gains,=20we=20need=20= to=20understand=20 the =20limits=20of=20current=20technology=20and=20explore=20ways=20of=20getting= =20 information =20that=20is=20new.=20=20I=20am=20not=20one=20who=20got=20all=20excited=20a= bout=20being=20able=20 to =20drive=20a=20car,=20although=20I=20certainly=20hope=20that=20blind=20peop= le=20can=20do=20 that =20at=20some=20point.=20=20However,=20I=20got=20very=20excited=20about=20th= e=20fact=20that=20 as=20a =20result=20of=20looking=20at=20the=20problem,=20we=20experimented=20with=20= a=20number=20 of =20ways=20of=20getting=20information=20that=20had=20not=20been=20explored=20= before.=20=20 A =20significant=20portion=20of=20our=20budget=20went=20into=20the=20KNFB=20r= eader.=20=20At=20 the =20time,=20it=20was=20something=20nobody=20was=20doing,=20and=20it=20was=20= a=20moving =20experience=20when=20I=20held=20up=20a=20KNFB=20reader=20to=20the=20lists= =20of=20 registered =20people=20at=20a=20national=20convention=20that=20were=20just=20hanging=20= from=20a =20crossbar=20and=20have=20it=20start=20to=20read=20the=20content.=20=20The= re=20have=20 probably =20been=20over=20a=20thousand=20kids=20who=20have=20attended=20science=20ca= mps=20of=20one =20kind=20or=20another=20through=20our=20efforts.=20=20We=20have=20been=20a= ble=20to=20 sponsor =20other=20gatherings=20as=20well=20for=20blind=20lawyers,=20teachers,=20an= d=20major =20players=20in=20the=20technology=20field.=20=20We=20couldn't=20have=20don= e=20any=20of=20 this =20in=20the=2080's=20or=2090's,=20and=20much=20of=20this=20would=20not=20ha= ve=20been=20done=20 even =20now=20if=20we=20hadn't=20tried=20it. =20So=20what's=20my=20point,=20I'm=20not=20saying=20anything=20new,=20you=20= know=20all=20 this. =20My=20point=20is=20that=20a=20lot=20of=20this=20is=20about=20risks=20and= =20perspectives.=20=20 We =20won't=20know=20for=20a=20long=20time=20if=20some=20of=20these=20efforts= =20will=20make=20a =20difference.=20=20Frankly,=20I=20am=20a=20believer=20that=20one=20learns= =20almost=20as=20 much =20from=20what=20doesn't=20work=20as=20one=20learns=20from=20what=20does,=20= because=20if=20 you =20make=20a=20mistake=20you=20can=20eliminate=20or=20refine=20that=20approa= ch.=20=20Will=20 some =20of=20those=20thousand=20kids=20get=20into=20math=20or=20science=20becaus= e=20of=20what=20 we =20did?=20=20Is=20the=20OCR=20in=20the=20new=20HIMS=20product=20a=20little= =20better=20because=20 of =20what=20we=20did=20with=20the=20KNFB=20reader?=20=20Will=20we=20see=20a=20= really=20good=20 reader =20on=20the=20iPhone?=20=20Might=20we=20ever=20see=20a=20reader=20that=20co= uld=20use=20 artificial =20intelligence=20to=20interpret=20software=20on=20a=20computer=20screen=20= instead=20 of =20having =20to =20educate=20every=20person=20who=20writes =20software?=20=20Will=20some=20of=20our=20efforts=20mean=20that=20there=20= might=20be=20a=20 way =20for=20us =20to =20control=20the=20Google=20self-driving=20cars=20because=20of=20some=20of= =20the=20work=20 we =20did=20on=20our=20own=20car?=20=20I=20hope=20that=20at=20least=20some=20o= f=20the=20answers=20 are =20yes,=20but=20at=20this=20point=20I=20can't=20really=20say.=20=20What=20I= =20do=20know=20is=20 that =20the=20smaller=20dynamic=20grass=20roots=20organization=20that=20we=20wer= e=20in=20the =2080's=20couldn't=20have=20had=20any=20affect=20on=20some=20of=20what=20I'= ve=20listed=20 above, =20nor=20was=20it=20the=20right=20time=20for=20that.=20=20But=20it=20also=20= means=20that=20we =20change.=20=20Not=20only=20do=20we=20change,=20but=20we=20make=20mistakes= =20as=20we=20 adjust=20to =20change.=20=20Joe,=20what=20you=20see=20as=20a=20downward=20spiral,=20I=20= see=20as=20the =20challenges=20of=20change.=20=20I'm=20not=20satisfied=20to=20say=20that=20= it=20has=20to=20 be =20that=20way,=20though.=20=20We=20can=20and=20must=20learn=20how=20to=20do= =20better,=20as =20individuals=20and=20as=20an=20organization. =20Joe,=20I=20think=20you=20are=20right=20that=20getting=20training=20at=20= one=20of=20our =20centers=20won't=20miraculously=20make=20life=20better,=20and=20the=20mar= keting=20 does =20sometimes=20imply=20that.=20=20However,=20you=20are=20wrong=20to=20draw= =20 conclusions =20about=20such=20training=20based=20upon=20the=20marketing.=20=20Discussin= g=20and =20exploring=20the=20uncertainties=20and=20challenges=20of=20seeking=20empl= oyment=20 as =20a=20blind=20person=20is=20a=20big=20part=20of=20what=20is=20addressed=20= at=20BLIND =20Incorporated=20here=20in=20Minnesota=20and=20I=20assume=20by=20our=20oth= er=20 centers. =20Some=20of=20the=20point=20of=20such=20training=20is=20to=20encourage=20t= he=20idea=20that=20 you =20have=20to=20have=20a=20set=20of=20tools=20to=20approach=20a=20given=20si= tuation=20and=20 not =20just=20one=20tool.=20=20Still,=20we=20have=20to=20do=20more=20than=20run= =20people=20 through =20training. =20This=20is=20true=20of=20any=20single=20aspectof=20our=20challenges,=20th= ough. =20Legislating=20that=20software=20must=20be=20accessible=20and=20that=20on= e=20cannot =20discriminate=20based=20upon=20a=20disability=20was=20and=20is=20still=20= needed,=20 but=20it =20won't=20matter=20much=20if=20we=20don't=20have=20training.=20=20Legislat= ion=20and=20 even =20training=20won't=20matter=20all=20that=20much=20if=20we=20don't=20get=20= a=20good=20basic =20education. =20Requiring=20that=20school=20districts=20teach=20braille=20won't=20fix=20= that=20 problem =20if=20there=20are=20no=20braille=20instructors=20in=20a=20given=20area.=20= =20You=20can't=20 pick =20any=20one=20thing=20out=20and=20say=20that=20it=20can=20lead=20to=20succ= ess=20by=20itself,=20 and =20you=20can't=20see=20any=20given=20issue=20as=20completely=20standing=20o= n=20its=20own. =20I=20feel=20that=20we=20are=20in=20a=20better=20position=20as=20an=20orga= nization=20to=20 impact =20the=20complex=20challenges=20we=20face=20with=20a=20larger=20budget=20th= an=20we=20 were. =20However,=20it=20is=20more=20important=20than=20ever=20that=20we=20unders= tand=20where=20 we =20are=20going=20and=20how=20our=20philosophy=20fits=20in.=20=20The=20quest= ion=20of=20what=20 can =20we=20change=20to=20address=20the=20challenges=20of=20the=20world=20and=20= what=20do=20we=20 need =20the=20world=20to=20change=20is=20more=20important=20than=20ever,=20and=20= I=20don't=20see =20anyone=20asking=20questions=20like=20that=20outside=20of=20this=20organi= zation. =20With=20our=20strengths=20and=20our=20failings,=20I=20think=20our=20under= standing=20 of =20asking=20for=20help=20and=20looking=20for=20our=20own=20solutions=20is=20= what=20has=20 set=20us =20apart=20in=20my=20mind,=20and=20while=20it=20is=20risky,=20I=20think=20t= hat=20branching=20 out =20is=20a=20risk=20worth=20taking=20to=20try=20to=20have=20a=20wider=20impa= ct.=20=20We=20need=20 the =20help=20of=20all=20members,=20though,=20to=20handle=20change. =20Best=20regards, =20Steve=20Jacobson =20On=20Sun,=2030=20Mar=202014=2012:57:22=20-0600,=20Jamie=20Principato=20w= rote: =20Arielle, =20That=20was=20a=20very=20thoughtful=20and=20politically=20sensitive=20res= ponse. =20Joe, =20I=20am=20pleased=20to=20see=20I=20am=20not=20alone=20in=20making=20these= =20observations =20furring=20=20my=20=20own=20relationship=20with=20the=20NFB.=20while=20I =20deeply=20respect=20the=20organization's=20history=20and=20truly=20apprec= iate=20 the =20raw=20potential=20the=20organization=20has=20moving=20forward,=20the=20p= assion=20I =20joined=20with=20back=20in=20high=20school=20has=20turned=20to=20cautious= =20cynicism.=20 I =20don't=20think=20this=20perspective=20is=20bad,=20though.=20I=20think=20t= he=20NFB =20desperately=20needs=20members=20who=20can=20see=20past=20the=20smoke=20a= nd=20mirrors=20 of =20PR,=20and=20who=20are=20willing=20to=20discuss=20issues=20of=20blindness= =20and=20 politics =20in=20a=20no-nonsense=20way=20that=20isn't=20always=20easy=20to=20hear.=20= It=20is=20a=20 shame =20though=20when=20those=20of=20us=20less=20willing=20to=20toe=20the=20line= =20and=20pander=20 to =20those=20with=20political=20power=20are=20treated=20with=20hostility=20by= =20some=20at=20 the =20national=20level,=20and=20more=20still=20within=20our=20local=20chapters= From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 03:37:21 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:37:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism In-Reply-To: <099BD096-0105-4E76-BD7A-5E50532E360F@gmail.com> References: <3A57E6874C8F44CF8D04E4CD20992A5E@HP30910210001> <55588B3EE3B2496DB8B824E7D0B66100@OwnerPC> <75033B47-E846-4A38-AE7A-3FD5753BAE2D@gmail.com> <099BD096-0105-4E76-BD7A-5E50532E360F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ryan, You make some interesting points in your message below. I think many of the issues you raise are a matter of degree rather than kind. Denying a blind person access to a good or service is clearly discriminatory and problematic. Making a website inaccessible is less blatantly discriminatory because the blind person can often find a workaround, such as brief help from a sighted person, to access the content. However, there are several laws on the books that require public materials to be accessible. In the eyes of the law this is a civil rights issue. I think much of what NFB does is to push entities to comply with existing laws, as much as or more than changing laws to expand our civil rights. I am often told that NFB staff tries to work collaboratively with companies, as you suggest, and moves to legal action only if the companies refuse to work with us. NFB has partnered with a lot of companies and runs a lot of Braille and technology initiatives to try to make things more accessible. This stuff is important but not as prominently featured in the presidential reports etc. So I don't think NFB is as confrontational as it sometimes appears to be. However, I agree that sometimes the presidential reports and other publicity has an "us vs. them" tone that is not really necessary and I think alienates some intelligent people both inside and outside the organization. I suspect this is another relic of the past when the issues facing the blind were perhaps more urgently pressing and the relations between NFB and many other groups were antagonistic. I think we are moving into an era where we need to be more sensitive to all the nuances and shades of gray between "us" and "them" and I hope that future leadership can understand this. Blind people are a small minority and our requests to have the environment made accessible to us are often ignored. While I think we should continue to demand equal treatment, I also think that often the folks ignoring our requests are not doing this because they dislike us (as the president sometimes implies in his reports), but simply because we are a minority and they feel they have more important issues to attend to. So I agree that villainizing entities that won't work with us is not helpful. But at the same time, if organizations really do ignore us after repeated attempts for dialogue, there are times when the issue is pressing enough to justify a lawsuit. Arielle On 4/3/14, Ryan Silveira wrote: > Hi All, > > While I agree that some of the philosophies of the NFB (e.g. blindfold > training, maintaining braille literacy and the "empowering yourself" > approach) are, indeed, conservative ideas and approaches, the civil rights > portion of the NFB takes a very liberal and rather belligerent approach. I > do not say that all of the members of the NFB think and act this way, but > there is a group of members (I have heard it called the "advocacy arm") who > seem to enjoy banding together and fighting the rest of the world for what > they consider to be their rights. I am often told, "That is an outsider's > perspective of our organization. We're not really like that." To that, I > say: the "outsiders" had to gain that perspective somehow. They did not > just make it up. While I am proud to be a member of the NFB, I see no need > to advertise my pride in the organization, nor to form some kind of army for > the blind and either virtually or realistically march for our rights. The > group within the organization which takes this liberal approach seem, to me, > to purposefully find the most trivial things with which they see a problem > and then shout about how we are not equal and how the government or a school > needs to change for us, but that there is no reason whatsoever for us to try > to work with them. If a website is inaccessible or a certain program does > not work the way you want it to work, shouting about civil rights is not the > answer--working with the developers to make the website or program accessible > is. The only reason one should fight the civil rights battle is if they are > truly being denied a human right. examples of situations in which a civil > rights battle might be appropriate are: if a person is not admitted into a > school because they are blind or not admitted into a restaurant they really > wanted to go to because they had a service dog. Even then, publicizing the > discrimination and suing the organization is a last resort. There was a > speech given by Dr. Mauer recently (I believe some time in the last year) > during which he enumerated the legal civil rights victories various blind > students have had. While listening to this speech, I felt as if we were > fighting some kind of war--the blind minority against the sighted majority. > This is not a war, fellow students. We are not fighting. Those who > continuously cry for equality simply want to be greater than those whom they > feel oppress them. Equality is gained when both sides meet in the middle > and come up with a solution. It cannot, it will not be established if one > side continuously fights the other, for eventually one side will emerge > victorious and the other will be defeated. Rather than taking the liberal > approach, we, the minority, should learn to work with the sighted majority. > If we want them to work for us, making things more accessible, then we need > to be able to work with them and to make compromises. Only then will we > have equality. > > > Ryan L. Silveira > Corresponding Secretary > Ohio Association of Blind Students > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, "Changing What it Means > to be Blind" > (203) 731-7580 > ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com > > On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:24 AM, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: > >> Thank you Ashley. >> Lora >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Melissa, >>> I agree and I hope the shift is toward educating companies to make their >>> software accessible and doing outreach so they know our capabilities. >>> We need to focus more on employment, definitely. Due to the inaccessible >>> software on pcs, electronics going touch screen and employer attitudes, >>> we are not increasing our employment rate. >>> It used to be you could be a receptionist or admin assistant or secretary >>> as a blind person, good entry level job. This was in the 90s when we had >>> pcs, but no digital touch screens. Okay, now, you have inaccessible >>> equipment; scanners, copiers, and printers have screens one has to read >>> to operate them beyond the basics. Even phones now have menus we cannot >>> read. We can operate them and make calls, sure, but to go change >>> settings, we cannot do that. >>> Digital things has caused inaccessibility. And, jobs blind people used to >>> have are disappearing. Such jobs include secretaries, switch board >>> operators, and receptionists. Dark room technicians, piano tuners, and >>> chair caning are disappearing too. >>> >>> I think without more of a move to have accessible software, we are going >>> to be left behind. >>> Every job ad tells me I need skills in database management. How can we >>> compete with inaccessible databases? Not even MS Access is accessible! >>> >>> As to conservatism, indeed it's a conservative group. I knew this the >>> second meeting I went to 15 years back. Much of the self empowerment >>> message spoken about at the virginia state convention is conservative. >>> Yes, it is like yeah everyone can be successful in whatever they want. If >>> you cannot get your dreams, you need to have more skills or more >>> confidence; just as conservatives like rush Limboull say get up and out >>> there, the NFB says if you cannot succeed its your fault. As Joe pointed >>> out, I no longer can follow this. I have skills and a college degree, yet >>> I cannot possibly meet all job qualifications because of visual barriers. >>> Another example is many communications jobs I want require adobe creative >>> suite use. I cannot use adobe photoshop or adobe end design. Never will >>> happen, even if I improve my computer skills; some things just cannot be >>> done with a screen reader. I could use other text based databases if they >>> were accessible though; such as raisers edge, donor perfect, CRM, and >>> SalesForce. >>> >>> I do like the can do attitude of NFB leaders, but out in the real world, >>> having the blindness skills simply is no longer enough to suceed. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: melissa R Green >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:45 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >>> >>> I like the dual aproach as well. I have stated this before, and I don't >>> have a concrete answer. I think that we need to also continue to focus >>> on >>> the employment of blind people more than we have done. I was very glad >>> that >>> the job fair was occurring at convention again, and that there was a job >>> fair at washington seminar. In my opinion, this is a more balanced >>> aproach >>> to assisting blind people in becoming successful. Have a blessed day. >>> Best Wishes >>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 3:12 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >>> >>> >>> I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy >>> itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" >>> mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also >>> historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind >>> including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal >>> position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've >>> picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and >>> pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in >>> addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. >>> In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent >>> years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think >>> the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual >>> approach of empowering blind people while also making environments >>> more hospitable for us. >>> >>> Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on >>> themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the >>> old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often >>> stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are >>> today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider >>> (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out >>> to other blind people for help. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >>>> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the >>>> nfb. >>>> Great point Ashley. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>> Bramlett >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> Kaiti, >>>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions >>>> too. >>>> >>>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >>>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the >>>> philosophy >>>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society >>>> on >>>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization >>>> is >>>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on >>>> government; >>>> get >>>> a job. >>>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you >>>> can >>>> be financially independent through other means with out the job. >>>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family >>>> inherritances >>>> who >>>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes >>>> a >>>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is >>>> doing >>>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases >>>> like >>>> raisers edge. >>>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your >>>> bootstraps >>>> with no outside help. >>>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and >>>> ACB >>>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with >>>> these >>>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. >>>> Things >>>> may change soon. >>>> >>>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >>>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope >>>> this >>>> does not happen again. >>>> >>>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >>>> disability groups. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >>>> may >>>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >>>> those >>>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >>>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point >>>> to >>>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >>>> people, >>>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to >>>> accomplish >>>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally >>>> with >>>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start >>>> forming >>>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from >>>> the >>>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have >>>> phrased >>>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>>> >>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >>>> but >>>> I'm >>>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle >>>> pointed >>>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, >>>> it's >>>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even >>>> drive >>>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >>>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, >>>> but >>>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another >>>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >>>> >>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>>> unitarian >>>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I >>>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal >>>> than >>>> the >>>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be >>>> happy, >>>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was >>>> not >>>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and >>>> even >>>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't >>>> know >>>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a >>>> prevalent >>>> part of convention? >>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would >>>> hate >>>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >>>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to >>>> pretend >>>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve >>>> the >>>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >>>> circumstances >>>> doesn't seem right. >>>> Sorry for the rant. >>>> >>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>>>> happen again. >>>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>>>> be the darling of >>>>> >>>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>>>> chapters and >>>>> >>>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>>>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew >>>>> up in >>>>> >>>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling >>>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>>>> Best Wishes >>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>>>> withmultipledisabilities? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >>>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled >>>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>>>>> is not occurring. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>>>>> diverse. I also >>>>>> >>>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>>>>> they have >>>>>> >>>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>>>> transgendered people. >>>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>>>> announcement and >>>>>> >>>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>>>> social purposes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>>>> changes >>>>>> >>>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>>>> what happens. >>>>>> Have a blessed day. >>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>>>> multipledisabilities? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>>>> help them with. >>>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or >>>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >>>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>> Joe and others, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't >>>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear >>>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt >>>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a >>>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably >>>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much >>>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some >>>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial >>>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>>>> having >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>>>>> for us >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, >>>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>>>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >>>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>>>>> training. >>>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >>>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>>>> education. >>>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the >>>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is >>>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> is >>>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one >>>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder >>>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, >>>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's >>>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if >>>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be >>>>>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 >>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>>>>>>> 0visi.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> 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_______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 04:02:33 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 00:02:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism In-Reply-To: References: <3A57E6874C8F44CF8D04E4CD20992A5E@HP30910210001> <55588B3EE3B2496DB8B824E7D0B66100@OwnerPC> <75033B47-E846-4A38-AE7A-3FD5753BAE2D@gmail.com> <099BD096-0105-4E76-BD7A-5E50532E360F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Ryan, Arielle, Ashley, and any others who I have failed to mention, great posts! I do want to say something on the NFB ACB issue. I refrained from doing it on the thread which was shut down a few days ago, since I didn't really want to enter the organization bashing fray by just sharing a story, but we're all pretty intellegent people on this thread, so here it is. I'd love to hear what you all think. I really do what I can for my state affiliate, and think that the people from Ohio are some of the coolest federationists because they have a good balance of encouraging members of the affiliate to reach their full potential as people, and logically and politely working with our legislators to make reasonable changes happen. There aren't any crazy lawsuits that we're particularly involved with, and the main goal of our affiliate is just to grow and serve as a resource. As a division president, I've gotten to know the current leadership and some past presidents here, as well as a lot of the general members. I've always felt welcomed and encouraged, even when things I tried to do didn't go as well as expected. I owe a lot to the NFB for helping me grow as well. However, I do know that every organization has its flaws, and being a more liberal person I see the hard and fast conservativism to be a little troubling at times. Not all the time, but as I've said before, I would have for minority groups to be formed in the organization, because we first need to have all members equal before we ask everyone in the organization to work for equality in the greater society. But, the NFB's realistic attitude about the capabilities of blind people is mostly on. I know a blind woman who acted as a mentor for me and my mom for years. One day when I was 14 or so I asked her what she thought about the blindness organizations out there. She said she was not a member of either the NFB or ACB, not because she was a fence sitter, but because she didn't want to belong to either of them. Her view of the NFB was not at all related to militaristic advocacy people, but that the organization seems to shut out sighted people a little too much, in her opinion. But, on the other hand, the ACB seemed to rely too much on the mentality of, "I'm blind, so I'm owed this, and that." So, NFB was overly sufficient to the point, but the ACB was overly needy. I have heard some similar comments about the ACB over the years, like that they make sure there are sighted people at their conventions specifically to act as sighted guides for people. I've also heard from my state affiliate's secretary that once when she went to a state ACB convention, it would be announced that, "The other camp is among us," whenever she and the NFB people she was with entered a room. That's just a bit weird to me. I know the NFB and ACB don't particularly get along, and I don't support them failing the resolution posed to support the Fair Wages for Workers With Disabilities act at all because I have that on recording somewhere, but really, it sounds like they're 12 and saying the kids from the other side of the block are busting in on their Little Rascals-style meeting. I know federationists who also belong to ACB, and I also know that some of these people are openly in both groups, but I've never heard them criticized for it as long as they still contribute to our cause. I've also heard that some people who were in both groups eventually chose to leave ACB, because the needy attitude became less and less a thing they agreed with. Just a story based on what I've heard from others I know. On 4/3/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Ryan, > > You make some interesting points in your message below. I think many > of the issues you raise are a matter of degree rather than kind. > Denying a blind person access to a good or service is clearly > discriminatory and problematic. Making a website inaccessible is less > blatantly discriminatory because the blind person can often find a > workaround, such as brief help from a sighted person, to access the > content. However, there are several laws on the books that require > public materials to be accessible. In the eyes of the law this is a > civil rights issue. I think much of what NFB does is to push entities > to comply with existing laws, as much as or more than changing laws to > expand our civil rights. > I am often told that NFB staff tries to work collaboratively with > companies, as you suggest, and moves to legal action only if the > companies refuse to work with us. NFB has partnered with a lot of > companies and runs a lot of Braille and technology initiatives to try > to make things more accessible. This stuff is important but not as > prominently featured in the presidential reports etc. So I don't think > NFB is as confrontational as it sometimes appears to be. However, I > agree that sometimes the presidential reports and other publicity has > an "us vs. them" tone that is not really necessary and I think > alienates some intelligent people both inside and outside the > organization. I suspect this is another relic of the past when the > issues facing the blind were perhaps more urgently pressing and the > relations between NFB and many other groups were antagonistic. I > think we are moving into an era where we need to be more sensitive to > all the nuances and shades of gray between "us" and "them" and I hope > that future leadership can understand this. Blind people are a small > minority and our requests to have the environment made accessible to > us are often ignored. While I think we should continue to demand equal > treatment, I also think that often the folks ignoring our requests are > not doing this because they dislike us (as the president sometimes > implies in his reports), but simply because we are a minority and they > feel they have more important issues to attend to. So I agree that > villainizing entities that won't work with us is not helpful. But at > the same time, if organizations really do ignore us after repeated > attempts for dialogue, there are times when the issue is pressing > enough to justify a lawsuit. > > Arielle > > On 4/3/14, Ryan Silveira wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> While I agree that some of the philosophies of the NFB (e.g. blindfold >> training, maintaining braille literacy and the "empowering yourself" >> approach) are, indeed, conservative ideas and approaches, the civil >> rights >> portion of the NFB takes a very liberal and rather belligerent approach. >> I >> do not say that all of the members of the NFB think and act this way, but >> there is a group of members (I have heard it called the "advocacy arm") >> who >> seem to enjoy banding together and fighting the rest of the world for >> what >> they consider to be their rights. I am often told, "That is an >> outsider's >> perspective of our organization. We're not really like that." To that, >> I >> say: the "outsiders" had to gain that perspective somehow. They did not >> just make it up. While I am proud to be a member of the NFB, I see no >> need >> to advertise my pride in the organization, nor to form some kind of army >> for >> the blind and either virtually or realistically march for our rights. >> The >> group within the organization which takes this liberal approach seem, to >> me, >> to purposefully find the most trivial things with which they see a >> problem >> and then shout about how we are not equal and how the government or a >> school >> needs to change for us, but that there is no reason whatsoever for us to >> try >> to work with them. If a website is inaccessible or a certain program >> does >> not work the way you want it to work, shouting about civil rights is not >> the >> answer--working with the developers to make the website or program >> accessible >> is. The only reason one should fight the civil rights battle is if they >> are >> truly being denied a human right. examples of situations in which a >> civil >> rights battle might be appropriate are: if a person is not admitted into >> a >> school because they are blind or not admitted into a restaurant they >> really >> wanted to go to because they had a service dog. Even then, publicizing >> the >> discrimination and suing the organization is a last resort. There was a >> speech given by Dr. Mauer recently (I believe some time in the last year) >> during which he enumerated the legal civil rights victories various blind >> students have had. While listening to this speech, I felt as if we were >> fighting some kind of war--the blind minority against the sighted >> majority. >> This is not a war, fellow students. We are not fighting. Those who >> continuously cry for equality simply want to be greater than those whom >> they >> feel oppress them. Equality is gained when both sides meet in the middle >> and come up with a solution. It cannot, it will not be established if >> one >> side continuously fights the other, for eventually one side will emerge >> victorious and the other will be defeated. Rather than taking the >> liberal >> approach, we, the minority, should learn to work with the sighted >> majority. >> If we want them to work for us, making things more accessible, then we >> need >> to be able to work with them and to make compromises. Only then will we >> have equality. >> >> >> Ryan L. Silveira >> Corresponding Secretary >> Ohio Association of Blind Students >> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, "Changing What it >> Means >> to be Blind" >> (203) 731-7580 >> ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com >> >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:24 AM, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Thank you Ashley. >>> Lora >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Melissa, >>>> I agree and I hope the shift is toward educating companies to make >>>> their >>>> software accessible and doing outreach so they know our capabilities. >>>> We need to focus more on employment, definitely. Due to the >>>> inaccessible >>>> software on pcs, electronics going touch screen and employer >>>> attitudes, >>>> we are not increasing our employment rate. >>>> It used to be you could be a receptionist or admin assistant or >>>> secretary >>>> as a blind person, good entry level job. This was in the 90s when we >>>> had >>>> pcs, but no digital touch screens. Okay, now, you have inaccessible >>>> equipment; scanners, copiers, and printers have screens one has to read >>>> to operate them beyond the basics. Even phones now have menus we cannot >>>> read. We can operate them and make calls, sure, but to go change >>>> settings, we cannot do that. >>>> Digital things has caused inaccessibility. And, jobs blind people used >>>> to >>>> have are disappearing. Such jobs include secretaries, switch board >>>> operators, and receptionists. Dark room technicians, piano tuners, and >>>> chair caning are disappearing too. >>>> >>>> I think without more of a move to have accessible software, we are >>>> going >>>> to be left behind. >>>> Every job ad tells me I need skills in database management. How can we >>>> compete with inaccessible databases? Not even MS Access is accessible! >>>> >>>> As to conservatism, indeed it's a conservative group. I knew this the >>>> second meeting I went to 15 years back. Much of the self empowerment >>>> message spoken about at the virginia state convention is conservative. >>>> Yes, it is like yeah everyone can be successful in whatever they want. >>>> If >>>> you cannot get your dreams, you need to have more skills or more >>>> confidence; just as conservatives like rush Limboull say get up and out >>>> there, the NFB says if you cannot succeed its your fault. As Joe >>>> pointed >>>> out, I no longer can follow this. I have skills and a college degree, >>>> yet >>>> I cannot possibly meet all job qualifications because of visual >>>> barriers. >>>> Another example is many communications jobs I want require adobe >>>> creative >>>> suite use. I cannot use adobe photoshop or adobe end design. Never will >>>> happen, even if I improve my computer skills; some things just cannot >>>> be >>>> done with a screen reader. I could use other text based databases if >>>> they >>>> were accessible though; such as raisers edge, donor perfect, CRM, and >>>> SalesForce. >>>> >>>> I do like the can do attitude of NFB leaders, but out in the real >>>> world, >>>> having the blindness skills simply is no longer enough to suceed. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: melissa R Green >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >>>> >>>> I like the dual aproach as well. I have stated this before, and I >>>> don't >>>> have a concrete answer. I think that we need to also continue to focus >>>> on >>>> the employment of blind people more than we have done. I was very glad >>>> that >>>> the job fair was occurring at convention again, and that there was a >>>> job >>>> fair at washington seminar. In my opinion, this is a more balanced >>>> aproach >>>> to assisting blind people in becoming successful. Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 3:12 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >>>> >>>> >>>> I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy >>>> itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" >>>> mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also >>>> historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind >>>> including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal >>>> position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've >>>> picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and >>>> pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in >>>> addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. >>>> In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent >>>> years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think >>>> the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual >>>> approach of empowering blind people while also making environments >>>> more hospitable for us. >>>> >>>> Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on >>>> themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the >>>> old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often >>>> stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are >>>> today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider >>>> (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out >>>> to other blind people for help. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >>>>> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the >>>>> nfb. >>>>> Great point Ashley. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>> Bramlett >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>>> >>>>> Kaiti, >>>>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions >>>>> too. >>>>> >>>>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >>>>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the >>>>> philosophy >>>>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society >>>>> on >>>>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization >>>>> is >>>>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on >>>>> government; >>>>> get >>>>> a job. >>>>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that >>>>> you >>>>> can >>>>> be financially independent through other means with out the job. >>>>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family >>>>> inherritances >>>>> who >>>>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which >>>>> precludes >>>>> a >>>>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is >>>>> doing >>>>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases >>>>> like >>>>> raisers edge. >>>>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your >>>>> bootstraps >>>>> with no outside help. >>>>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative >>>>> and >>>>> ACB >>>>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with >>>>> these >>>>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. >>>>> Things >>>>> may change soon. >>>>> >>>>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >>>>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope >>>>> this >>>>> does not happen again. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >>>>> disability groups. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> >>>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >>>>> may >>>>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >>>>> those >>>>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >>>>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point >>>>> to >>>>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >>>>> people, >>>>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to >>>>> accomplish >>>>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally >>>>> with >>>>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start >>>>> forming >>>>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people >>>>> from >>>>> the >>>>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have >>>>> phrased >>>>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>>>> >>>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >>>>> but >>>>> I'm >>>>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle >>>>> pointed >>>>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, >>>>> it's >>>>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even >>>>> drive >>>>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >>>>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user >>>>> experience, >>>>> but >>>>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for >>>>> another >>>>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>>>> unitarian >>>>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so >>>>> I >>>>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal >>>>> than >>>>> the >>>>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be >>>>> happy, >>>>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I >>>>> was >>>>> not >>>>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and >>>>> even >>>>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't >>>>> know >>>>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a >>>>> prevalent >>>>> part of convention? >>>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >>>>> would >>>>> hate >>>>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >>>>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to >>>>> pretend >>>>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't >>>>> deserve >>>>> the >>>>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >>>>> circumstances >>>>> doesn't seem right. >>>>> Sorry for the rant. >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>>>>> happen again. >>>>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>>>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>>>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>>>>> be the darling of >>>>>> >>>>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>>>>> chapters and >>>>>> >>>>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>>>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>>>>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>>>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >>>>>> grew >>>>>> up in >>>>>> >>>>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >>>>>> darling >>>>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>>>>> withmultipledisabilities? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>>>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>>>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>>>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>>>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>>>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>>>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>>>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise >>>>>> informal >>>>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>>>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>>>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been >>>>>> polled >>>>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>>>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>>>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>>>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>>>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>>>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>>>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>>>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>>>>>> is not occurring. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>>>>>> diverse. I also >>>>>>> >>>>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>>>>>> they have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>>>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>>>>> transgendered people. >>>>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>>>>> announcement and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>>>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>>>>> social purposes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>>>>> changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>>>>> what happens. >>>>>>> Have a blessed day. >>>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>>>>> multipledisabilities? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>>>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>>>>> help them with. >>>>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>>>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>>>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>>>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>>>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>>>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>>>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>>>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>>>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>>>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>>>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>>>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>>>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>> Joe and others, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong >>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly >>>>>>>> clear >>>>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have >>>>>>>> felt >>>>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have >>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use >>>>>>>> artificial >>>>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>>>>> having >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>>>>>> for us >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed >>>>>>>> above, >>>>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>>>>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>>>>>> training. >>>>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>>>>> education. >>>>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that >>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't >>>>>>>> pick >>>>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to >>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set >>>>>>>> us >>>>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is >>>>>>>>>> stereotyped >>>>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of >>>>>>>>>> acceptance >>>>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and >>>>>>>>>>> Seminary >>>>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt >>>>>>>>>>>> glad >>>>>>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even >>>>>>>>>>>> sadder >>>>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to >>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help >>>>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever >>>>>>>>>>>> achieve, >>>>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was >>>>>>>>>>>> reliable >>>>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new >>>>>>>>>>>> ideas, >>>>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take >>>>>>>>>>>> what's >>>>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> president, >>>>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they >>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, >>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info 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>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 04:10:47 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 00:10:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: I think a good thing might look something like this: A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution states that the president and vice president must be planning to be full-time students in the year following their election, and a majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join and aid in the cause. On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, > > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle illness! > for today, Car > > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >>Hi Ariel, >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which >> is >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >> Sam >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>Silverman >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is >> led >>by blind people with mental illness. >>Arielle >> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >> > Hi everyone, >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ >> > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along >>with blindness. >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program >> > and how they do things. >> > >> > Sam >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >> > Taurasi >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> > >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of >> > that >>guardianship. >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >> > Beth >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Kaiti Shelton > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> > >> > Hello all, >> > >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> > >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >> > that just doesn't make sense. >> > >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >> > Sorry for the rant. >> > >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> > happen again. >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >> > be the darling of >> > >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> > chapters and >> > >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> > examples of backing the wrong person. >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >> > grew up in >> > >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> > Best Wishes >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> > withmultipledisabilities? >> > >> > >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>special interest. >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about >> > whether >>to keep having these religious invocations? >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> > >> > Arielle >> > >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >> > But the >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >> > occurring. >> > >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >> > diverse. I also >> > >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >> > they have >> > >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >>people. >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >> > announcement and >> > >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >> > purposes. >> > >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >> > changes >> > >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >> > what happens. >> > Have a blessed day. >> > Best Wishes >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > > > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> > multipledisabilities? >> > >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> > help >>them with. >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >> > I >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> > >> > Best, >> > Arielle >> > >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> > Joe and others, >> > >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> > >> > to >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >> > at some point. >> > However, I >> > got >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> > >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >> > difference. >> > Frankly, >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB >>reader? >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software >> > on a computer screen instead of having >> > >> > to >> > educate every person who writes >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >> > for us >> > >> > to >> > control the Google self-driving cars >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. >> > But it also means that we change. >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >> > an organization. >> > >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> > Legislating >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> > >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Steve Jacobson >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> > >> > Arielle, >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> > >> > Joe, >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >> > still within our local chapters. >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Joe, >> > >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >> > drawings and the like. >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>sources. >> > So >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a >> > loss of programs and resources. >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in >> > the organization. >> > >> > Arielle >> > >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >> > wrote: >> > Hello all. >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> > Thanks. >> > Mike >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: RJ Sandefur >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >> > mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> > >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>mentoor. >> > RJ >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Joe" > > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> > >> > >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in >> > the company >> > >> > of >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent >>gatherings. >> > >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or >> > that >>effort. >> > I >> > found >> > it >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >> > so-called friends from whom >> > >> > I >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> > fundraising campaigns. >> > >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >> > national in scope. >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> > >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> > professionals. >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because they >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >> > organization. I had too much of >> > >> > a >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >> > sustaining. >> > >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >> > want >> > >> > it >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> > >> > to >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has >> > seen >>to that. >> > Whether >> > or >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >> > it to exist. >> > >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our >>camp. >> > The >> > few >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> > lesson in financial management to you. >> > >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >> > >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> > >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > -- >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> > >> > Visit my blog: >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >> > ndefur%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >> > le%40frontier.com >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >> > 40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >> > n%40visi.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> > mail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> > t104%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Kaiti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >> > 07%40comcast.net >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >> > on.net >> > >> > >> > --- >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> > protection is active. >> > http://www.avast.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> > com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com >> >> >>--- >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>protection is active. >>http://www.avast.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Apr 4 04:17:02 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 00:17:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism In-Reply-To: References: <3A57E6874C8F44CF8D04E4CD20992A5E@HP30910210001><55588B3EE3B2496DB8B824E7D0B66100@OwnerPC><75033B47-E846-4A38-AE7A-3FD5753BAE2D@gmail.com><099BD096-0105-4E76-BD7A-5E50532E360F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <033CF18470EE423C9C7527DC18E0E0BD@OwnerPC> Kaiti, Thanks for your thoughts. Your observations and rumors about ACB conventions are true. It seems they have a more entitlement mentality. Also, yes, they think they need more sighted people and adaptations. Yes, they have sighted people at conventions for assistance. They also have advocated for audible traffic signals before their convention is held. I know here in virginia, they even wanted the floor to be modified for low vision travelers who did not use a cane. They had tape put down on the front of steps so people could see the contrasting colors. I also know some blind people who won't join either organization for the reasons you mentioned. I suppose I sort of stay with NFB because overall I like the advocacy we do and think we get more done; for instance, I applaud the teach act and the advocacy with home appliances and websites. I'm glad you got a lot out of the Federation philosophy. It does help as a message of encouragement. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 12:02 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism Hi all, Ryan, Arielle, Ashley, and any others who I have failed to mention, great posts! I do want to say something on the NFB ACB issue. I refrained from doing it on the thread which was shut down a few days ago, since I didn't really want to enter the organization bashing fray by just sharing a story, but we're all pretty intellegent people on this thread, so here it is. I'd love to hear what you all think. I really do what I can for my state affiliate, and think that the people from Ohio are some of the coolest federationists because they have a good balance of encouraging members of the affiliate to reach their full potential as people, and logically and politely working with our legislators to make reasonable changes happen. There aren't any crazy lawsuits that we're particularly involved with, and the main goal of our affiliate is just to grow and serve as a resource. As a division president, I've gotten to know the current leadership and some past presidents here, as well as a lot of the general members. I've always felt welcomed and encouraged, even when things I tried to do didn't go as well as expected. I owe a lot to the NFB for helping me grow as well. However, I do know that every organization has its flaws, and being a more liberal person I see the hard and fast conservativism to be a little troubling at times. Not all the time, but as I've said before, I would have for minority groups to be formed in the organization, because we first need to have all members equal before we ask everyone in the organization to work for equality in the greater society. But, the NFB's realistic attitude about the capabilities of blind people is mostly on. I know a blind woman who acted as a mentor for me and my mom for years. One day when I was 14 or so I asked her what she thought about the blindness organizations out there. She said she was not a member of either the NFB or ACB, not because she was a fence sitter, but because she didn't want to belong to either of them. Her view of the NFB was not at all related to militaristic advocacy people, but that the organization seems to shut out sighted people a little too much, in her opinion. But, on the other hand, the ACB seemed to rely too much on the mentality of, "I'm blind, so I'm owed this, and that." So, NFB was overly sufficient to the point, but the ACB was overly needy. I have heard some similar comments about the ACB over the years, like that they make sure there are sighted people at their conventions specifically to act as sighted guides for people. I've also heard from my state affiliate's secretary that once when she went to a state ACB convention, it would be announced that, "The other camp is among us," whenever she and the NFB people she was with entered a room. That's just a bit weird to me. I know the NFB and ACB don't particularly get along, and I don't support them failing the resolution posed to support the Fair Wages for Workers With Disabilities act at all because I have that on recording somewhere, but really, it sounds like they're 12 and saying the kids from the other side of the block are busting in on their Little Rascals-style meeting. I know federationists who also belong to ACB, and I also know that some of these people are openly in both groups, but I've never heard them criticized for it as long as they still contribute to our cause. I've also heard that some people who were in both groups eventually chose to leave ACB, because the needy attitude became less and less a thing they agreed with. Just a story based on what I've heard from others I know. On 4/3/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Ryan, > > You make some interesting points in your message below. I think many > of the issues you raise are a matter of degree rather than kind. > Denying a blind person access to a good or service is clearly > discriminatory and problematic. Making a website inaccessible is less > blatantly discriminatory because the blind person can often find a > workaround, such as brief help from a sighted person, to access the > content. However, there are several laws on the books that require > public materials to be accessible. In the eyes of the law this is a > civil rights issue. I think much of what NFB does is to push entities > to comply with existing laws, as much as or more than changing laws to > expand our civil rights. > I am often told that NFB staff tries to work collaboratively with > companies, as you suggest, and moves to legal action only if the > companies refuse to work with us. NFB has partnered with a lot of > companies and runs a lot of Braille and technology initiatives to try > to make things more accessible. This stuff is important but not as > prominently featured in the presidential reports etc. So I don't think > NFB is as confrontational as it sometimes appears to be. However, I > agree that sometimes the presidential reports and other publicity has > an "us vs. them" tone that is not really necessary and I think > alienates some intelligent people both inside and outside the > organization. I suspect this is another relic of the past when the > issues facing the blind were perhaps more urgently pressing and the > relations between NFB and many other groups were antagonistic. I > think we are moving into an era where we need to be more sensitive to > all the nuances and shades of gray between "us" and "them" and I hope > that future leadership can understand this. Blind people are a small > minority and our requests to have the environment made accessible to > us are often ignored. While I think we should continue to demand equal > treatment, I also think that often the folks ignoring our requests are > not doing this because they dislike us (as the president sometimes > implies in his reports), but simply because we are a minority and they > feel they have more important issues to attend to. So I agree that > villainizing entities that won't work with us is not helpful. But at > the same time, if organizations really do ignore us after repeated > attempts for dialogue, there are times when the issue is pressing > enough to justify a lawsuit. > > Arielle > > On 4/3/14, Ryan Silveira wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> While I agree that some of the philosophies of the NFB (e.g. blindfold >> training, maintaining braille literacy and the "empowering yourself" >> approach) are, indeed, conservative ideas and approaches, the civil >> rights >> portion of the NFB takes a very liberal and rather belligerent approach. >> I >> do not say that all of the members of the NFB think and act this way, but >> there is a group of members (I have heard it called the "advocacy arm") >> who >> seem to enjoy banding together and fighting the rest of the world for >> what >> they consider to be their rights. I am often told, "That is an >> outsider's >> perspective of our organization. We're not really like that." To that, >> I >> say: the "outsiders" had to gain that perspective somehow. They did not >> just make it up. While I am proud to be a member of the NFB, I see no >> need >> to advertise my pride in the organization, nor to form some kind of army >> for >> the blind and either virtually or realistically march for our rights. >> The >> group within the organization which takes this liberal approach seem, to >> me, >> to purposefully find the most trivial things with which they see a >> problem >> and then shout about how we are not equal and how the government or a >> school >> needs to change for us, but that there is no reason whatsoever for us to >> try >> to work with them. If a website is inaccessible or a certain program >> does >> not work the way you want it to work, shouting about civil rights is not >> the >> answer--working with the developers to make the website or program >> accessible >> is. The only reason one should fight the civil rights battle is if they >> are >> truly being denied a human right. examples of situations in which a >> civil >> rights battle might be appropriate are: if a person is not admitted into >> a >> school because they are blind or not admitted into a restaurant they >> really >> wanted to go to because they had a service dog. Even then, publicizing >> the >> discrimination and suing the organization is a last resort. There was a >> speech given by Dr. Mauer recently (I believe some time in the last year) >> during which he enumerated the legal civil rights victories various blind >> students have had. While listening to this speech, I felt as if we were >> fighting some kind of war--the blind minority against the sighted >> majority. >> This is not a war, fellow students. We are not fighting. Those who >> continuously cry for equality simply want to be greater than those whom >> they >> feel oppress them. Equality is gained when both sides meet in the middle >> and come up with a solution. It cannot, it will not be established if >> one >> side continuously fights the other, for eventually one side will emerge >> victorious and the other will be defeated. Rather than taking the >> liberal >> approach, we, the minority, should learn to work with the sighted >> majority. >> If we want them to work for us, making things more accessible, then we >> need >> to be able to work with them and to make compromises. Only then will we >> have equality. >> >> >> Ryan L. Silveira >> Corresponding Secretary >> Ohio Association of Blind Students >> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, "Changing What it >> Means >> to be Blind" >> (203) 731-7580 >> ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com >> >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:24 AM, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Thank you Ashley. >>> Lora >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Melissa, >>>> I agree and I hope the shift is toward educating companies to make >>>> their >>>> software accessible and doing outreach so they know our capabilities. >>>> We need to focus more on employment, definitely. Due to the >>>> inaccessible >>>> software on pcs, electronics going touch screen and employer >>>> attitudes, >>>> we are not increasing our employment rate. >>>> It used to be you could be a receptionist or admin assistant or >>>> secretary >>>> as a blind person, good entry level job. This was in the 90s when we >>>> had >>>> pcs, but no digital touch screens. Okay, now, you have inaccessible >>>> equipment; scanners, copiers, and printers have screens one has to read >>>> to operate them beyond the basics. Even phones now have menus we cannot >>>> read. We can operate them and make calls, sure, but to go change >>>> settings, we cannot do that. >>>> Digital things has caused inaccessibility. And, jobs blind people used >>>> to >>>> have are disappearing. Such jobs include secretaries, switch board >>>> operators, and receptionists. Dark room technicians, piano tuners, and >>>> chair caning are disappearing too. >>>> >>>> I think without more of a move to have accessible software, we are >>>> going >>>> to be left behind. >>>> Every job ad tells me I need skills in database management. How can we >>>> compete with inaccessible databases? Not even MS Access is accessible! >>>> >>>> As to conservatism, indeed it's a conservative group. I knew this the >>>> second meeting I went to 15 years back. Much of the self empowerment >>>> message spoken about at the virginia state convention is conservative. >>>> Yes, it is like yeah everyone can be successful in whatever they want. >>>> If >>>> you cannot get your dreams, you need to have more skills or more >>>> confidence; just as conservatives like rush Limboull say get up and out >>>> there, the NFB says if you cannot succeed its your fault. As Joe >>>> pointed >>>> out, I no longer can follow this. I have skills and a college degree, >>>> yet >>>> I cannot possibly meet all job qualifications because of visual >>>> barriers. >>>> Another example is many communications jobs I want require adobe >>>> creative >>>> suite use. I cannot use adobe photoshop or adobe end design. Never will >>>> happen, even if I improve my computer skills; some things just cannot >>>> be >>>> done with a screen reader. I could use other text based databases if >>>> they >>>> were accessible though; such as raisers edge, donor perfect, CRM, and >>>> SalesForce. >>>> >>>> I do like the can do attitude of NFB leaders, but out in the real >>>> world, >>>> having the blindness skills simply is no longer enough to suceed. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: melissa R Green >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:45 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >>>> >>>> I like the dual aproach as well. I have stated this before, and I >>>> don't >>>> have a concrete answer. I think that we need to also continue to focus >>>> on >>>> the employment of blind people more than we have done. I was very glad >>>> that >>>> the job fair was occurring at convention again, and that there was a >>>> job >>>> fair at washington seminar. In my opinion, this is a more balanced >>>> aproach >>>> to assisting blind people in becoming successful. Have a blessed day. >>>> Best Wishes >>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 3:12 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism >>>> >>>> >>>> I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy >>>> itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up" >>>> mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also >>>> historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind >>>> including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal >>>> position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've >>>> picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and >>>> pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in >>>> addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments. >>>> In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent >>>> years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think >>>> the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual >>>> approach of empowering blind people while also making environments >>>> more hospitable for us. >>>> >>>> Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on >>>> themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the >>>> old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often >>>> stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are >>>> today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider >>>> (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out >>>> to other blind people for help. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >>>>> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the >>>>> nfb. >>>>> Great point Ashley. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>>>> Bramlett >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>>> >>>>> Kaiti, >>>>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions >>>>> too. >>>>> >>>>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition. >>>>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the >>>>> philosophy >>>>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society >>>>> on >>>>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization >>>>> is >>>>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on >>>>> government; >>>>> get >>>>> a job. >>>>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that >>>>> you >>>>> can >>>>> be financially independent through other means with out the job. >>>>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family >>>>> inherritances >>>>> who >>>>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which >>>>> precludes >>>>> a >>>>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is >>>>> doing >>>>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases >>>>> like >>>>> raisers edge. >>>>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your >>>>> bootstraps >>>>> with no outside help. >>>>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative >>>>> and >>>>> ACB >>>>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with >>>>> these >>>>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. >>>>> Things >>>>> may change soon. >>>>> >>>>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed. >>>>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope >>>>> this >>>>> does not happen again. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other >>>>> disability groups. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> >>>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >>>>> may >>>>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >>>>> those >>>>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without >>>>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point >>>>> to >>>>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind >>>>> people, >>>>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to >>>>> accomplish >>>>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally >>>>> with >>>>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start >>>>> forming >>>>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people >>>>> from >>>>> the >>>>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have >>>>> phrased >>>>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>>>> >>>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >>>>> but >>>>> I'm >>>>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle >>>>> pointed >>>>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, >>>>> it's >>>>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even >>>>> drive >>>>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and >>>>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user >>>>> experience, >>>>> but >>>>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for >>>>> another >>>>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>>>> unitarian >>>>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so >>>>> I >>>>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal >>>>> than >>>>> the >>>>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be >>>>> happy, >>>>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I >>>>> was >>>>> not >>>>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and >>>>> even >>>>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't >>>>> know >>>>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a >>>>> prevalent >>>>> part of convention? >>>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >>>>> would >>>>> hate >>>>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members, >>>>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to >>>>> pretend >>>>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't >>>>> deserve >>>>> the >>>>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or >>>>> circumstances >>>>> doesn't seem right. >>>>> Sorry for the rant. >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>>>>> happen again. >>>>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>>>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>>>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>>>>> be the darling of >>>>>> >>>>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>>>>> chapters and >>>>>> >>>>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>>>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>>>>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>>>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >>>>>> grew >>>>>> up in >>>>>> >>>>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >>>>>> darling >>>>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>>>>> withmultipledisabilities? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>>>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>>>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>>>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>>>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>>>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make >>>>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual >>>>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise >>>>>> informal >>>>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too >>>>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all >>>>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been >>>>>> polled >>>>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other >>>>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the >>>>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>>>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>>>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>>>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>>>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>>>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >>>>>>> is not occurring. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>>>>>> diverse. I also >>>>>>> >>>>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>>>>>> they have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>>>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>>>>> transgendered people. >>>>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>>>>> announcement and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>>>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>>>>> social purposes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>>>>>> changes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>>>>>> what happens. >>>>>>> Have a blessed day. >>>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>>>>> multipledisabilities? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities >>>>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>>>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>>>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>>>>>> help them with. >>>>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>>>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>>>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss >>>>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >>>>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental >>>>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >>>>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have >>>>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >>>>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if >>>>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes >>>>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how >>>>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there >>>>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >>>>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from >>>>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>> Joe and others, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong >>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We >>>>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in >>>>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do >>>>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this >>>>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly >>>>>>>> clear >>>>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. >>>>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I >>>>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have >>>>>>>> felt >>>>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems >>>>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation >>>>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I >>>>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>>>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of >>>>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A >>>>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered >>>>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a >>>>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have >>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >>>>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor >>>>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major >>>>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this >>>>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even >>>>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>>>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you >>>>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we >>>>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of >>>>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader >>>>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use >>>>>>>> artificial >>>>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of >>>>>>>> having >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>>>>>>> for us >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we >>>>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are >>>>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that >>>>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the >>>>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed >>>>>>>> above, >>>>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we >>>>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >>>>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be >>>>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >>>>>>>> individuals and as an organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>>>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. >>>>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through >>>>>>>> training. >>>>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >>>>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>>>>> education. >>>>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that >>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't >>>>>>>> pick >>>>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to >>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>>>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set >>>>>>>> us >>>>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>>>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>>>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I >>>>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the >>>>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB >>>>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of >>>>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics >>>>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a >>>>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like. >>>>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable >>>>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is >>>>>>>>>> stereotyped >>>>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of >>>>>>>>>> acceptance >>>>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind >>>>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I >>>>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so >>>>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative >>>>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and >>>>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> does. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and >>>>>>>>>>> Seminary >>>>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have >>>>>>>>>>> a mentoor. >>>>>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt >>>>>>>>>>>> glad >>>>>>>>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up >>>>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >>>>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I >>>>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting >>>>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to >>>>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even >>>>>>>>>>>> sadder >>>>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to >>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help >>>>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the >>>>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope. >>>>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever >>>>>>>>>>>> achieve, >>>>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste >>>>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was >>>>>>>>>>>> reliable >>>>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should >>>>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >>>>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new >>>>>>>>>>>> ideas, >>>>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>>>>> don't want >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college >>>>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to >>>>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take >>>>>>>>>>>> what's >>>>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >>>>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what >>>>>>>>>>>> you always had >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> president, >>>>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave >>>>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer >>>>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective >>>>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>>>>> want it to exist. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they >>>>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial >>>>>>>>>>>> management to you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >>>>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, >>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. >>>>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there >>>>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some >>>>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks >>>>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info 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>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing 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_______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 04:20:40 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 00:20:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive In-Reply-To: References: <4C36EB696E8B490EA6018B67D0D47E6E@Helga> Message-ID: Hi all, Ashley, actually, yes. There is a patch for it so that you can run NVDA, but with Eloquence. I don't like E-Speak that much either. :). Helga, I stand corrected, so you can certainly contact your Freedom Scientific rep if you really want JAWS to work. However, if it isn't as smoothe with some products, NVDA with the eloquence patch might work better, since it is made to go on a thum drive. Just google NVDA and it should be the first or second link to come up. On 4/2/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > I hate the sound of the default NVDA. can you get the elloquence synthesizer > > for it? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:43 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive > > Hi Helga, > > I'm not a computer guru, so I'll admit I may be wrong on this; but I > don't think you can do this with JAWS. However, you can do it with > NVDA, which is a free screenreader you can download and install to a > flashdrive. I use a flashdrive with NVDA on it so I don't have to > worry about finding an inaccessible computer when I study at the > library, and it works really well. > > HTH. > > On 4/1/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: >> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, is it >> true >> that you can put the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in order to >> take >> it around and use it in other computers that don't have the software? And >> >> if >> it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way that I can put it in my >> thumb >> drive? I'm just wondering since I want to see and check my mom's computer >> >> or >> other friend's computer that doesn't have JAWS the Software, so that I >> can >> use it. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me >> some >> suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much >> and >> God bless!! > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 4 06:33:18 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 23:33:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> Good evening, Kaiti, All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >I think a good thing might look something like this: > >A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some >sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill >people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going >into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have >mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a >group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might >want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little >more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able >to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution >states that the president and vice president must be planning to be >full-time students in the year following their election, and a >majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long >as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join >and aid in the cause. > >On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, > > > > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle illness! > > for today, Car > > > > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: > >>Hi Ariel, > >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which > >> is > >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. > >> Sam > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > >>Silverman > >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM > >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > >> > >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could > >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is > >> led > >>by blind people with mental illness. > >>Arielle > >> > >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: > >> > Hi everyone, > >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred > >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ > >> > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along > >>with blindness. > >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental > >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and > >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how > >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of > >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how > >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a > >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow > >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. > >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is > >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day > >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if > >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. > >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric > >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know > >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a > >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program > >> > and how they do things. > >> > > >> > Sam > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth > >> > Taurasi > >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > >> > > >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing > >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because > >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of > >> > that > >>guardianship. > >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they > >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case > >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects > >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship > >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, > >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But > >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such > >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" > >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if > >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. > >> > Beth > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Kaiti Shelton >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > >> > > >> > Hello all, > >> > > >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we > >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and > >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities > >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a > >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the > >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then > >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with > >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it > >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > >> > > >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, > >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as > >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the > >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss > >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is > >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather > >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people > >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, > >> > that just doesn't make sense. > >> > > >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself > >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are > >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't > >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important > >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had > >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this > >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? > >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I > >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are > >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit > >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > >> > Sorry for the rant. > >> > > >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never > >> > happen again. > >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then > >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the > >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and > >> > be the darling of > >> > > >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > >> > chapters and > >> > > >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering > >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > >> > examples of backing the wrong person. > >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and > >> > grew up in > >> > > >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the > >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. > >> > Best Wishes > >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > >> > withmultipledisabilities? > >> > > >> > > >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to > >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the > >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely > >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > >>special interest. > >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what > >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a > >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then > >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't > >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically > >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general > >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about > >> > whether > >>to keep having these religious invocations? > >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects > >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we > >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed > >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle > >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > >> > > >> > Arielle > >> > > >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > >> > But the > >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the > >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not > >> > occurring. > >> > > >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more > >> > diverse. I also > >> > > >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if > >> > they have > >> > > >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything > >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together > >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered > >>people. > >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > >> > announcement and > >> > > >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left > >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that > >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social > >> > purposes. > >> > > >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more > >> > changes > >> > > >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see > >> > what happens. > >> > Have a blessed day. > >> > Best Wishes > >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >> > multipledisabilities? > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > >> > help > >>them with. > >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. > >> > I > >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > Arielle > >> > > >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >> > Joe and others, > >> > > >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we > >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > >> > > >> > to > >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one > >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an > >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we > >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB > >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our > >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as > >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are > >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with > >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made > >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by > >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is > >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force > >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is > >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. > >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the > >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information > >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to > >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that > >> > at some point. > >> > However, I > >> > got > >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the > >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information > >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our > >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something > >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB > >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention > >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the > >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have > >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. > >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind > >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We > >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this > >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. > >> > > >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. > >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We > >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >> > difference. > >> > Frankly, > >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work > >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can > >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids > >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the > >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB > >>reader? > >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a > >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software > >> > on a computer screen instead of having > >> > > >> > to > >> > educate every person who writes > >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way > >> > for us > >> > > >> > to > >> > control the Google self-driving cars > >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at > >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really > >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots > >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on > >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. > >> > But it also means that we change. > >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. > >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of > >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, > >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as > >> > an organization. > >> > > >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does > >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a > >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated > >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the > >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have > >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. > >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >> > Legislating > >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate > >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter > >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't > >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. > >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem > >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick > >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and > >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >> > > >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact > >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we > >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can > >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need > >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us > >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out > >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the > >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. > >> > > >> > Best regards, > >> > > >> > Steve Jacobson > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >> > > >> > Arielle, > >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >> > > >> > Joe, > >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the > >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the > >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in > >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this > >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members > >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to > >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that > >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less > >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power > >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more > >> > still within our local chapters. > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Joe, > >> > > >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > >> > drawings and the like. > >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to > >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > >>sources. > >> > So > >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a > >> > loss of programs and resources. > >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment > >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that > >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the > >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all > >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. > >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in > >> > the organization. > >> > > >> > Arielle > >> > > >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > >> > wrote: > >> > Hello all. > >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own > >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size > >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > >> > Thanks. > >> > Mike > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: RJ Sandefur > >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >> > mailing list > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >> > > >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a > >>mentoor. > >> > RJ > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Joe" >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >> > >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >> > > >> > > >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there > >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in > >> > the company > >> > > >> > of > >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as > >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as > >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the > >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from > >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the > >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited > >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall > >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent > >>gatherings. > >> > > >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it > >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather > >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen > >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or > >> > that > >>effort. > >> > I > >> > found > >> > it > >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly > >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of > >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps > >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from > >> > so-called friends from whom > >> > > >> > I > >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > >> > fundraising campaigns. > >> > > >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about > >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development > >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also > >> > national in scope. > >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >> > > >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >> > professionals. > >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever > >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they > >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because they > >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have > >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the > >> > organization. I had too much of > >> > > >> > a > >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have > >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could > >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most > >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >> > sustaining. > >> > > >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't > >> > want > >> > > >> > it > >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know > >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the > >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner > >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the > >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys > >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will > >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The > >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > >> > > >> > to > >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and > >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to > >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world > >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has > >> > seen > >>to that. > >> > Whether > >> > or > >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want > >> > it to exist. > >> > > >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what > >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They > >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our > >>camp. > >> > The > >> > few > >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > >> > lesson in financial management to you. > >> > > >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only > >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of > >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste > >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher > >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I > >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to > >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. > >> > > >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I > >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt > >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: > >> > > >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what > >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >> > > >> > Joe > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >> > > >> > Visit my blog: > >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> > for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > >> > 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options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > >> > 40gmail.com > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso > >> > n%40visi.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > >> > mail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >> > t104%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Kaiti > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 > >> > 07%40comcast.net > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > >> > on.net > >> > > >> > > >> > --- > >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > >> > protection is active. > >> > http://www.avast.com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > >> > com > >> > > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >>--- > >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > >>protection is active. > >>http://www.avast.com > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 07:21:25 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 00:21:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6DDD3E8B-E592-4811-9600-0909DC40C6A1@gmail.com> Hi Sam and all, In my view the NFB has always believed in educating ourselves and the public as to what blindness really is and what it isn’t, supporting ourselves in the journey to have the lives we truly want and can have for ourselves with the afore mentioned understanding in mind, and taking action when needed to secure the basic opportunities we need to have the lives we want. One thing I like about what we do and who we are is that we see an issue and we do something about it. A small group of blind people from across the country came together in 1940 to address issues that were seen to effect the blind nation-wide; the NFB was born. Blind Venders faced issues in their communities and from this we saw a blind venders division form, Students needed peer mentoring to get through school effectively and the Student division was born, guide dog users facing access issues and needing a support network formed a guide dog division. I think that we need to see that a division or group that deals with issues surrounding mental illness as much as we need to see one concerning blindness and multiple disabilities. I think though that much like Kaiti and possibly others have brought up, those who are in leadership of those divisions need to be those who’s experiences inspire the divisions need for existence. This would then mean that much like it has been before, those who truly see the need for it should feel that need in such a way that empowers them to put together that group or division, and to see that the group/ division addresses the issues that the group desires and stays consistent with the overall mission/vision of the NFB. I do hope such a thing happens so the issues voiced here don’t simply stay issues that are discussed here. Darian on Apr 2, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi Ariel, > I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which is > such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. > Sam > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > > I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could > work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is led > by blind people with mental illness. > Arielle > > On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >> percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ >> services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along > with blindness. >> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >> illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and >> them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >> mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >> misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >> mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >> standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow >> for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >> I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is >> a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day >> with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >> possible and most of all just our friendship. >> Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >> clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >> anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a >> contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program >> and how they do things. >> >> Sam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >> Taurasi >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >> Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >> they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that > guardianship. >> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >> will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case >> against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects >> lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >> with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, >> I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But >> alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >> persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" >> is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if >> such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >> Beth >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> Hello all, >> >> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >> may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >> those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >> without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >> starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >> huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >> working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >> same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then >> we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with >> that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >> organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it >> better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >> but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the >> car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is >> purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather >> than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people >> who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >> that just doesn't make sense. >> >> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself >> at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are >> more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't >> always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important >> that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had >> any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >> Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this >> light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? >> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >> would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >> minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >> greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are >> less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit >> their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >> Sorry for the rant. >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> happen again. >> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >> be the darling of >> >> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> chapters and >> >> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> examples of backing the wrong person. >> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >> grew up in >> >> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >> darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every > special interest. >> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >> should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >> division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then >> not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't >> try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >> controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general >> sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about whether > to keep having these religious invocations? >> In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects >> the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >> But the >> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the >> under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >> occurring. >> >> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >> diverse. I also >> >> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >> they have >> >> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together >> and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered > people. >> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >> announcement and >> >> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >> purposes. >> >> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >> changes >> >> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >> what happens. >> Have a blessed day. >> Best Wishes >> Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> multipledisabilities? >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help > them with. >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >> I >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Joe and others, >> >> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> >> to >> be perfect. Still, some of what one >> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >> expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we >> used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >> supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our >> budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as >> you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are >> not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >> legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >> contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >> legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is >> a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force >> software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is >> necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> particularly on the job, all by itself. >> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >> at some point. >> However, I >> got >> very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >> problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information >> that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >> budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >> reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the >> content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >> attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. >> We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >> lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >> couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this >> would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >> difference. >> Frankly, >> I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work >> as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can >> eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids >> get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the >> new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB > reader? >> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a >> reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software >> on a computer screen instead of having >> >> to >> educate every person who writes >> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >> for us >> >> to >> control the Google self-driving cars >> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >> least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really >> say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >> organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on >> some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. >> But it also means that we change. >> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. >> Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of >> change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >> an organization. >> >> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a >> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated >> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have >> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> Legislating >> that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate >> based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter >> much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't >> matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >> help of all members, though, to handle change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> Arielle, >> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >> Joe, >> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >> organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >> organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >> high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >> who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to >> discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >> isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less >> willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >> still within our local chapters. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >> drawings and the like. >> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > sources. >> So >> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a >> loss of programs and resources. >> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >> But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in >> the organization. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >> wrote: >> Hello all. >> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> Thanks. >> Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a > mentoor. >> RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >> I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in >> the company >> >> of >> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >> a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >> a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >> real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >> attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the >> weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited >> to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >> through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent > gatherings. >> >> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it >> needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >> disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen >> to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that > effort. >> I >> found >> it >> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >> dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps >> the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >> so-called friends from whom >> >> I >> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> fundraising campaigns. >> >> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >> the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >> national in scope. >> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> >> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> professionals. >> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >> will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they >> shun the organization because they were turned away or because they >> were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have >> kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >> organization. I had too much of >> >> a >> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could >> have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >> important, remaining true to the cause and not some >> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >> sustaining. >> >> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >> want >> >> it >> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >> verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner >> will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >> organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >> to >> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >> I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >> reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world >> where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen > to that. >> Whether >> or >> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >> it to exist. >> >> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >> I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >> seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our > camp. >> The >> few >> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> lesson in financial management to you. >> >> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of >> leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste >> the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher >> who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I >> want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to >> do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >> >> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >> be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt >> to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> >> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what >> will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >> ndefur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >> le%40frontier.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >> 40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >> n%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> t104%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >> 07%40comcast.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >> on.net >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 07:26:52 2014 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 08:26:52 +0100 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <6EB13424-D5FA-4260-B5F7-3908CECD135B@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <1924AB5D-FF36-4C65-A300-9C1598ECA4D3@samobile.net> <6EB13424-D5FA-4260-B5F7-3908CECD135B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello everyone, It's hard for me to sit here and listen to all this. I'm in Europe and we don't have any of the opportunities you're complaining about; conventions, visually impaired leaders, independence philosophy etc. You could always live in England where there's disability specific hate crime! You wouldn't have any 'Youth Slams' to organise or complain about here, trust me! You certainly wouldn't have the luxury of criticising how a visually impaired national gathering is run because they are very rare here. As for visually impaired people at the top of an organisation, don't make me laugh! Very best wishes, Sandra. On 4/3/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > Jedi, > > Extremely well said. Your ease with words, and adeptedness when writing on a > mobile device both deserve my public acknowledgement for a job well done. > > May I say, tongue in cheek, that you inspire me. Smiles. > > > Antonio M Guimaraes Jr. > >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:32 PM, Jedi Moerke >> wrote: >> >> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea where >> to start! >> >> I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that I >> have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I can say >> that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I had >> nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In short, I >> felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there some >> people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this >> way? Yes. But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the >> federation were also to blame. >> >> My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. I >> honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the knowledge and >> experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers to >> organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every >> aspect of the organization and initially felt that the organization and >> its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences radically >> shifted my opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely >> disoriented. Self reflection caused me to recognize a few things that >> might be relevant to this discussion. >> >> First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization and >> the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the Federation >> our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to support all >> blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say that, in >> everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the >> attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short sometimes >> for one reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really believe >> that it is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive toward >> our stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our hearts and >> a bad attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others toward our >> organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that >> challenge and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I >> believe the membership I impacted also came out better as well. I also >> believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. >> >> I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself >> within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as a >> member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot of >> personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a member >> is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I decided to >> do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for it. In >> the process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other people in >> the organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived for >> being a perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize overtime >> that there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and that >> it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the organization? >> Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other >> areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say to >> hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about them. >> That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make some >> good points and recommendations for what blind people can do to better >> themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations truly do >> make a difference. It's up to you whether or not you are willing to assess >> your own life to determine what recommendations will help you improve. >> Everyone has room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down >> whatever defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you >> might find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful >> to you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to >> offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there are >> also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday be >> added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness to >> speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the Federation. >> But that can't happen if you decide to leave. >> >> I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be >> undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our >> organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The field >> of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are >> willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We have >> learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We now >> know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. >> Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making some things >> easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate for >> ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way we >> express ourselves is going to change. But that does not mean that our >> mission has changed. And yes, we have taken on a few initiatives that cost >> a lot of money. In the current budgetary climate, we do need to work >> harder at raising some funds in order to keep these initiatives afloat. >> That said, I believe the national organization recognizes that not >> everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. I think the >> national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us to >> participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our >> participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal >> contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the >> organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to sell >> things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind >> campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you to do >> what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have more >> enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or public >> education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning about >> our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are members >> who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways really. >> >> As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's >> comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured discovery >> perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect way >> to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching people >> the skills they need to make sense of the world and to act in it given >> their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a >> person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who does not >> push a student out of their comfort zone is no teacher at all. And it >> doesn't really matter if that teacher is a travel instructor or a mentor >> at convention. The best teachers keep students in a sweet spot where they >> are definitely challenged, but not so challenged as to make the experience >> a total wash. If you are the student so to speak and find yourself with a >> teacher who either doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your ability, >> then it is your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in that >> sweet spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between your >> actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, if >> you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it wrong >> anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no >> matter what kind of blind person you are. >> >> At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that those >> of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not >> alone. Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the >> territory of being one member among many within a vast organization whose >> membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to >> people about your experience as you will likely find someone who has been >> there and who can be both a support system and an advisor to you as to >> what you might do to find your place among us once again. Like I said, I >> have been there before and I am still working on finding my place. I'm not >> really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident that I >> will nonetheless. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I somehow >>> repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get quite >>> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought >>> up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >>> >>> >>> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two things >>> primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >>> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in hand >>> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >>> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >>> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and want to >>> be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, some not >>> money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want to be >>> members with no responsibility in the organization. >>> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an effort >>> to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their >>> needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over time >>> will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as >>> people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >>> >>> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people in our >>> chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we need >>> to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can do >>> and simply giving up won't solve the problem. It of course is totally >>> possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn't very receptive to >>> new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation stands >>> for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, >>> then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is very >>> important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >>> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the movement. >>> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of us >>> know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do all >>> of these things are important. >>> >>> >>> Darian >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>> drawings and the like. >>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>> life, >>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>> list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>> without >>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>>>> was >>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>> company >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>> real >>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>> leadership >>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>> spirit, >>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>> disappointing >>>>>> that >>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>> found >>>>>> it >>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>> dose >>>>>> of >>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>>>> more >>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>> frustrating >>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>>> whom >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>> the >>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>> efforts >>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>>> scope. >>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>>> or >>>>>> the >>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>>>> and >>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>> resources >>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>> professionals. >>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>> will >>>>>> be >>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>>>> when >>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>> enough >>>>>> to >>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>>> NFB >>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>> true >>>>>> to >>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>> ourselves >>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>> want >>>>>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>> what I >>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>>> of >>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>>>> guide >>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>> the >>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>>>> own >>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>> give >>>>>> you >>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>>> had >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>>>> will >>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>> is >>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>> Whether >>>>>> or >>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it >>>>>> to >>>>>> exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>> I've >>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>> happier, >>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>> lesson >>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>>> never >>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>> provide >>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>> through >>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>> couldn't >>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>> excel >>>>>> at >>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>>> our >>>>>> strength. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>>>> the >>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>>>> the >>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>> >>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>> consume >>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>>>> and >>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html Voiceover Artist www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 07:41:54 2014 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 08:41:54 +0100 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB PS Message-ID: Hello again, While I'm ranting about privaleges In America, you guys have web Braille while we still have to put up with Braille books being bent in half and sometimes ripped by members of our loving postal service. I'm sorry I'm coming across as a grumpy old woman before my time, hee hee! I'm just saying, be greatful for what you have and if you don't like having what the rest of us can only fantasize about, change what you can. If that doesn't work, build your own organisation whereyou can implement your ideas for change. I'm sure that's how The NFB started; someone had a dream about how they could make the world a better place for visually impaired people. From where I'm sitting, they're not doing a bad job! Very best wishes, Sandra. On 4/4/14, Sandra Gayer wrote: > Hello everyone, > It's hard for me to sit here and listen to all this. I'm in Europe and > we don't have any of the opportunities you're complaining about; > conventions, visually impaired leaders, independence philosophy etc. > You could always live in England where there's disability specific > hate crime! You wouldn't have any 'Youth Slams' to organise or > complain about here, trust me! You certainly wouldn't have the luxury > of criticising how a visually impaired national gathering is run > because they are very rare here. As for visually impaired people at > the top of an organisation, don't make me laugh! > > Very best wishes, > Sandra. > > On 4/3/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> Jedi, >> >> Extremely well said. Your ease with words, and adeptedness when writing on >> a >> mobile device both deserve my public acknowledgement for a job well done. >> >> May I say, tongue in cheek, that you inspire me. Smiles. >> >> >> Antonio M Guimaraes Jr. >> >>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:32 PM, Jedi Moerke >>> wrote: >>> >>> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea >>> where >>> to start! >>> >>> I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that I >>> have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I can >>> say >>> that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I had >>> nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In short, >>> I >>> felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there some >>> people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this >>> way? Yes. But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the >>> federation were also to blame. >>> >>> My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. I >>> honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the knowledge >>> and >>> experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers to >>> organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every >>> aspect of the organization and initially felt that the organization and >>> its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences >>> radically >>> shifted my opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely >>> disoriented. Self reflection caused me to recognize a few things that >>> might be relevant to this discussion. >>> >>> First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization and >>> the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the Federation >>> our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to support >>> all >>> blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say that, >>> in >>> everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the >>> attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short sometimes >>> for one reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really >>> believe >>> that it is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive >>> toward >>> our stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our hearts >>> and >>> a bad attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others toward >>> our >>> organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that >>> challenge and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I >>> believe the membership I impacted also came out better as well. I also >>> believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. >>> >>> I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself >>> within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as a >>> member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot of >>> personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a >>> member >>> is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I decided >>> to >>> do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for it. >>> In >>> the process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other people >>> in >>> the organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived for >>> being a perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize >>> overtime >>> that there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and >>> that >>> it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the >>> organization? >>> Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other >>> areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say to >>> hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about >>> them. >>> That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make some >>> good points and recommendations for what blind people can do to better >>> themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations truly >>> do >>> make a difference. It's up to you whether or not you are willing to >>> assess >>> your own life to determine what recommendations will help you improve. >>> Everyone has room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down >>> whatever defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you >>> might find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful >>> to you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to >>> offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there are >>> also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday be >>> added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness to >>> speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the Federation. >>> But that can't happen if you decide to leave. >>> >>> I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be >>> undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our >>> organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The >>> field >>> of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are >>> willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We have >>> learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We now >>> know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. >>> Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making some things >>> easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate for >>> ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way we >>> express ourselves is going to change. But that does not mean that our >>> mission has changed. And yes, we have taken on a few initiatives that >>> cost >>> a lot of money. In the current budgetary climate, we do need to work >>> harder at raising some funds in order to keep these initiatives afloat. >>> That said, I believe the national organization recognizes that not >>> everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. I think the >>> national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us to >>> participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our >>> participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal >>> contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the >>> organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to sell >>> things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind >>> campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you to >>> do >>> what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have >>> more >>> enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or public >>> education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning about >>> our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are members >>> who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways >>> really. >>> >>> As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's >>> comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured discovery >>> perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect way >>> to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching people >>> the skills they need to make sense of the world and to act in it given >>> their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a >>> person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who does >>> not >>> push a student out of their comfort zone is no teacher at all. And it >>> doesn't really matter if that teacher is a travel instructor or a mentor >>> at convention. The best teachers keep students in a sweet spot where >>> they >>> are definitely challenged, but not so challenged as to make the >>> experience >>> a total wash. If you are the student so to speak and find yourself with >>> a >>> teacher who either doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your >>> ability, >>> then it is your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in that >>> sweet spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between >>> your >>> actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, >>> if >>> you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it >>> wrong >>> anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no >>> matter what kind of blind person you are. >>> >>> At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that >>> those >>> of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not >>> alone. Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the >>> territory of being one member among many within a vast organization >>> whose >>> membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to >>> people about your experience as you will likely find someone who has >>> been >>> there and who can be both a support system and an advisor to you as to >>> what you might do to find your place among us once again. Like I said, I >>> have been there before and I am still working on finding my place. I'm >>> not >>> really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident that >>> I >>> will nonetheless. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I >>>> somehow >>>> repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get >>>> quite >>>> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought >>>> up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >>>> >>>> >>>> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two >>>> things >>>> primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >>>> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in >>>> hand >>>> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >>>> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >>>> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and want >>>> to >>>> be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, some not >>>> money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want to >>>> be >>>> members with no responsibility in the organization. >>>> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an >>>> effort >>>> to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their >>>> needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over time >>>> will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as >>>> people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >>>> >>>> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people in >>>> our >>>> chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we >>>> need >>>> to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can >>>> do >>>> and simply giving up won't solve the problem. It of course is totally >>>> possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn't very receptive >>>> to >>>> new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation stands >>>> for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, >>>> then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is very >>>> important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >>>> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the >>>> movement. >>>> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of us >>>> know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do >>>> all >>>> of these things are important. >>>> >>>> >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>> life, >>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> mailing >>>>>> list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>> without >>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>> RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>> company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>> real >>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>> found >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>> dose >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>> generating >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> whom >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>> top, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>> blood >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>> resources >>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>> mind >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>> true >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>> what I >>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>> verge >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> guide >>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>> give >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>> always >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>> few >>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>> provide >>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>> through >>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>> excel >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>> greater >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>> answer >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>> consume >>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>> not, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Soprano Singer > www.sandragayer.com > > Broadcast Presenter > > www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html > > Voiceover Artist > > www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html Voiceover Artist www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 07:53:19 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 00:53:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB PS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20BCC99D-13C7-48BF-9A35-E77549EF70EB@gmail.com> Hi Sandra, I’m sure that we have an appreciation for what we have. Many of us here have contributed in one way or another to what the NFB is today. I think this concern comes from a place where people care about what’s going on and want to make a change, and hopefully this is what comes of it. Besides I’m sure that there are things people in Europe complain about that americans would roll their eyes at *smile*. Darian On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:41 AM, Sandra Gayer wrote: > Hello again, > While I'm ranting about privaleges In America, you guys have web > Braille while we still have to put up with Braille books being bent in > half and sometimes ripped by members of our loving postal service. > > I'm sorry I'm coming across as a grumpy old woman before my time, hee > hee! I'm just saying, be greatful for what you have and if you don't > like having what the rest of us can only fantasize about, change what > you can. If that doesn't work, build your own organisation whereyou > can implement your ideas for change. I'm sure that's how The NFB > started; someone had a dream about how they could make the world a > better place for visually impaired people. From where I'm sitting, > they're not doing a bad job! > > Very best wishes, > Sandra. > > On 4/4/14, Sandra Gayer wrote: >> Hello everyone, >> It's hard for me to sit here and listen to all this. I'm in Europe and >> we don't have any of the opportunities you're complaining about; >> conventions, visually impaired leaders, independence philosophy etc. >> You could always live in England where there's disability specific >> hate crime! You wouldn't have any 'Youth Slams' to organise or >> complain about here, trust me! You certainly wouldn't have the luxury >> of criticising how a visually impaired national gathering is run >> because they are very rare here. As for visually impaired people at >> the top of an organisation, don't make me laugh! >> >> Very best wishes, >> Sandra. >> >> On 4/3/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>> Jedi, >>> >>> Extremely well said. Your ease with words, and adeptedness when writing on >>> a >>> mobile device both deserve my public acknowledgement for a job well done. >>> >>> May I say, tongue in cheek, that you inspire me. Smiles. >>> >>> >>> Antonio M Guimaraes Jr. >>> >>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:32 PM, Jedi Moerke >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea >>>> where >>>> to start! >>>> >>>> I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that I >>>> have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I can >>>> say >>>> that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I had >>>> nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In short, >>>> I >>>> felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there some >>>> people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this >>>> way? Yes. But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the >>>> federation were also to blame. >>>> >>>> My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. I >>>> honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the knowledge >>>> and >>>> experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers to >>>> organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every >>>> aspect of the organization and initially felt that the organization and >>>> its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences >>>> radically >>>> shifted my opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely >>>> disoriented. Self reflection caused me to recognize a few things that >>>> might be relevant to this discussion. >>>> >>>> First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization and >>>> the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the Federation >>>> our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to support >>>> all >>>> blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say that, >>>> in >>>> everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the >>>> attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short sometimes >>>> for one reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really >>>> believe >>>> that it is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive >>>> toward >>>> our stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our hearts >>>> and >>>> a bad attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others toward >>>> our >>>> organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that >>>> challenge and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I >>>> believe the membership I impacted also came out better as well. I also >>>> believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. >>>> >>>> I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself >>>> within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as a >>>> member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot of >>>> personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a >>>> member >>>> is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I decided >>>> to >>>> do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for it. >>>> In >>>> the process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other people >>>> in >>>> the organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived for >>>> being a perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize >>>> overtime >>>> that there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and >>>> that >>>> it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the >>>> organization? >>>> Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other >>>> areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say to >>>> hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about >>>> them. >>>> That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make some >>>> good points and recommendations for what blind people can do to better >>>> themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations truly >>>> do >>>> make a difference. It's up to you whether or not you are willing to >>>> assess >>>> your own life to determine what recommendations will help you improve. >>>> Everyone has room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down >>>> whatever defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you >>>> might find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't helpful >>>> to you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to >>>> offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there are >>>> also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday be >>>> added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness to >>>> speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the Federation. >>>> But that can't happen if you decide to leave. >>>> >>>> I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be >>>> undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our >>>> organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The >>>> field >>>> of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are >>>> willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We have >>>> learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We now >>>> know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. >>>> Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making some things >>>> easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate for >>>> ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way we >>>> express ourselves is going to change. But that does not mean that our >>>> mission has changed. And yes, we have taken on a few initiatives that >>>> cost >>>> a lot of money. In the current budgetary climate, we do need to work >>>> harder at raising some funds in order to keep these initiatives afloat. >>>> That said, I believe the national organization recognizes that not >>>> everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. I think the >>>> national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us to >>>> participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our >>>> participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal >>>> contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the >>>> organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to sell >>>> things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind >>>> campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you to >>>> do >>>> what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have >>>> more >>>> enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or public >>>> education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning about >>>> our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are members >>>> who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways >>>> really. >>>> >>>> As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's >>>> comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured discovery >>>> perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect way >>>> to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching people >>>> the skills they need to make sense of the world and to act in it given >>>> their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a >>>> person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who does >>>> not >>>> push a student out of their comfort zone is no teacher at all. And it >>>> doesn't really matter if that teacher is a travel instructor or a mentor >>>> at convention. The best teachers keep students in a sweet spot where >>>> they >>>> are definitely challenged, but not so challenged as to make the >>>> experience >>>> a total wash. If you are the student so to speak and find yourself with >>>> a >>>> teacher who either doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your >>>> ability, >>>> then it is your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in that >>>> sweet spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between >>>> your >>>> actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, >>>> if >>>> you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it >>>> wrong >>>> anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no >>>> matter what kind of blind person you are. >>>> >>>> At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that >>>> those >>>> of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not >>>> alone. Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with the >>>> territory of being one member among many within a vast organization >>>> whose >>>> membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to >>>> people about your experience as you will likely find someone who has >>>> been >>>> there and who can be both a support system and an advisor to you as to >>>> what you might do to find your place among us once again. Like I said, I >>>> have been there before and I am still working on finding my place. I'm >>>> not >>>> really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident that >>>> I >>>> will nonetheless. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I >>>>> somehow >>>>> repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get >>>>> quite >>>>> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has brought >>>>> up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two >>>>> things >>>>> primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >>>>> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in >>>>> hand >>>>> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >>>>> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >>>>> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and want >>>>> to >>>>> be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, some not >>>>> money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want to >>>>> be >>>>> members with no responsibility in the organization. >>>>> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an >>>>> effort >>>>> to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their >>>>> needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over time >>>>> will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as >>>>> people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >>>>> >>>>> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people in >>>>> our >>>>> chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we >>>>> need >>>>> to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can >>>>> do >>>>> and simply giving up won't solve the problem. It of course is totally >>>>> possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn't very receptive >>>>> to >>>>> new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation stands >>>>> for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, >>>>> then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is very >>>>> important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >>>>> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the >>>>> movement. >>>>> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of us >>>>> know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do >>>>> all >>>>> of these things are important. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>>> life, >>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>> list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>> without >>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>>>> dose >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>> generating >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>> top, >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>>> resources >>>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>>> what I >>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>>> verge >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> guide >>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>> excel >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>>> greater >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>> consume >>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Soprano Singer >> www.sandragayer.com >> >> Broadcast Presenter >> >> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html >> >> Voiceover Artist >> >> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer >> > > > -- > Soprano Singer > www.sandragayer.com > > Broadcast Presenter > > www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html > > Voiceover Artist > > www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Apr 4 09:58:03 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 03:58:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does not make me unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of people like me, Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in point, a guy called Mike. He was a world class runner before the prodromal symtpoms, the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer speaks, rather he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't even speak for himself, much less others. Beth On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good evening, Kaiti, > > All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called > mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation > likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of > speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? > for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> I think a good thing might look something like this: >> >> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some >> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill >> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going >> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have >> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a >> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might >> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little >> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able >> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution >> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be >> full-time students in the year following their election, and a >> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long >> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join >> and aid in the cause. >> >> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >> > >> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle illness! >> > for today, Car >> > >> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >>Hi Ariel, >> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. >> Which >> >> is >> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >> >> Sam >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> >>Silverman >> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> >> >> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services >> division could >> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division >> that is >> >> led >> >>by blind people with mental illness. >> >>Arielle >> >> >> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >> > Hi everyone, >> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between >> support/ >> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other >> disabilities along >> >>with blindness. >> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and >> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't >> allow >> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and >> it is >> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day >> to day >> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. >> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere >> for a >> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the >> program >> >> > and how they do things. >> >> > >> >> > Sam >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >> >> > Taurasi >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> > >> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide >> because of >> >> > that >> >>guardianship. >> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a >> case >> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it >> affects >> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep >> down, >> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. >> But >> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 >> "unpersons" >> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, >> and if >> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >> >> > Beth >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> > >> >> > Hello all, >> >> > >> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the >> blind, (we >> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this >> conversation), and >> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, >> then >> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships >> with >> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have >> phrased it >> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> > >> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree >> described, >> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like >> the >> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their >> discussion is >> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars >> rather >> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind >> people >> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >> >> > that just doesn't make sense. >> >> > >> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label >> myself >> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are >> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives >> aren't >> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is >> important >> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB >> had >> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in >> this >> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of >> convention? >> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from >> us are >> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to >> suit >> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >> >> > Sorry for the rant. >> >> > >> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will >> never >> >> > happen again. >> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and >> then >> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. >> IMO the >> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight >> and >> >> > be the darling of >> >> > >> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> >> > chapters and >> >> > >> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and >> wondering >> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. >> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >> >> > grew up in >> >> > >> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> >> > Best Wishes >> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> >> > withmultipledisabilities? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, >> especially the >> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I >> completely >> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> >>special interest. >> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and >> then >> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We >> can't >> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the >> general >> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about >> >> > whether >> >>to keep having these religious invocations? >> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that >> reflects >> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views >> alone, we >> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are >> formed >> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> > >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >> >> > But the >> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the >> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this >> is not >> >> > occurring. >> >> > >> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >> >> > diverse. I also >> >> > >> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >> >> > they have >> >> > >> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do >> anything >> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >> together >> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >> transgendered >> >>people. >> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >> >> > announcement and >> >> > >> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people >> left >> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >> social >> >> > purposes. >> >> > >> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many >> more >> >> > changes >> >> > >> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait >> and see >> >> > what happens. >> >> > Have a blessed day. >> >> > Best Wishes >> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > > >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> >> > multipledisabilities? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > >> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the >> number of >> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >> and >> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that >> people >> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly >> true when >> >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be >> highly >> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort >> from >> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can >> feel >> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> >> > help >> >>them with. >> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There >> is a >> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things >> about its >> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >> wheelchair >> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >> >> > I >> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions >> don't >> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I >> think >> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >> organization, and >> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a >> whole >> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is >> something >> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >> going >> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> > >> >> > Best, >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> >> > Joe and others, >> >> > >> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings >> and we >> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> >> > >> >> > to >> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one >> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or >> wrong as >> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds >> than we >> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look >> at our >> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative >> successes as >> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative >> successes are >> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. >> There is >> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will >> force >> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe >> this is >> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. >> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to >> understand the >> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >> information >> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do >> that >> >> > at some point. >> >> > However, I >> >> > got >> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting >> information >> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up >> a KNFB >> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to >> read the >> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our >> efforts. >> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of >> this >> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> > >> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all >> this. >> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and >> perspectives. We >> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >> >> > difference. >> >> > Frankly, >> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what >> doesn't work >> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake >> you can >> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand >> kids >> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the >> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with >> the KNFB >> >>reader? >> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever >> see a >> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret >> software >> >> > on a computer screen instead of having >> >> > >> >> > to >> >> > educate every person who writes >> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >> >> > for us >> >> > >> >> > to >> >> > control the Google self-driving cars >> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really >> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any >> affect on >> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for >> that. >> >> > But it also means that we change. >> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >> change. >> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of >> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals >> and as >> >> > an organization. >> >> > >> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing >> does >> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment >> as a >> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >> Incorporated >> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to >> have >> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one >> tool. >> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> >> > Legislating >> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate >> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't >> matter >> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training >> won't >> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that >> problem >> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't >> pick >> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by >> itself, and >> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> > >> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to >> impact >> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what >> can >> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we >> need >> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has >> set us >> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching >> out >> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. >> >> > >> >> > Best regards, >> >> > >> >> > Steve Jacobson >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Arielle, >> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >> > >> >> > Joe, >> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply >> respect the >> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs >> members >> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are >> willing to >> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of >> us less >> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >> >> > still within our local chapters. >> >> > >> >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> > >> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> > >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Hi Joe, >> >> > >> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >> saying >> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet >> that >> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with >> prize >> >> > drawings and the like. >> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >> due to >> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> >>sources. >> >> > So >> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could >> be a >> >> > loss of programs and resources. >> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose >> not to >> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >> judgment >> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception >> only, >> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to >> find that >> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments >> of the >> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am >> not >> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know >> not all >> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who >> have a >> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive >> to in >> >> > the organization. >> >> > >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >> >> > wrote: >> >> > Hello all. >> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> >> > Thanks. >> >> > Mike >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: RJ Sandefur >> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >> >> > mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> > >> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >> >>mentoor. >> >> > RJ >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Joe" > >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> > > >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >> there >> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to >> be in >> >> > the company >> >> > >> >> > of >> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >> me as >> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >> summer as >> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business >> with the >> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the >> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very >> well-suited >> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those >> infrequent >> >>gatherings. >> >> > >> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in >> turn it >> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >> rather >> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into >> listen >> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this >> fund or >> >> > that >> >>effort. >> >> > I >> >> > found >> >> > it >> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >> monthly >> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the >> focus of >> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >> perhaps >> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails >> from >> >> > so-called friends from whom >> >> > >> >> > I >> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to >> their NFB >> >> > fundraising campaigns. >> >> > >> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >> about >> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >> development >> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >> >> > national in scope. >> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> >> > >> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> >> > professionals. >> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >> ever >> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but >> they >> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because >> they >> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should >> have >> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >> >> > organization. I had too much of >> >> > >> >> > a >> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >> could >> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some >> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >> >> > sustaining. >> >> > >> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >> don't >> >> > want >> >> > >> >> > it >> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids >> on the >> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >> banner >> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >> > >> >> > to >> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB >> president, and >> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >> world >> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has >> >> > seen >> >>to that. >> >> > Whether >> >> > or >> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >> want >> >> > it to exist. >> >> > >> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >> what >> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out >> in our >> >>camp. >> >> > The >> >> > few >> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that >> be a >> >> > lesson in financial management to you. >> >> > >> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >> generation of >> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste >> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the >> teacher >> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I >> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you >> want to >> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >> >> > >> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >> lest I >> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >> attempt >> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> >> > >> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >> what >> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> > >> >> > Joe >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> > >> >> > Visit my blog: >> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> >> > mail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> >> > t104%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Kaiti >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >> >> > 07%40comcast.net >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >> >> > on.net >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- >> >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >> Antivirus >> >> > protection is active. >> >> > http://www.avast.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> >> > com >> >> > >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >>--- >> >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> >>protection is active. >> >>http://www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 11:05:25 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 04:05:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <614A8733-1E3F-49BA-819B-0668037085C5@gmail.com> Beth, What Kaiti suggests doesn't preclude this, in fact it supports this. The structure of the Federation is such that the blind are empowered to make all decisions on the direction and activities of the organization. Sighted persons are welcomed and appreciated as members of the Federation, but their membership in numbers may not exceed the membership in numbers of blind members they may not hold presidential positions. This same model is used in all of our divisions and it would work if applied to the group/division model for this population. This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Apr 3, 2014, at 11:33 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good evening, Kaiti, > > All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? > for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> I think a good thing might look something like this: >> >> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some >> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill >> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going >> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have >> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a >> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might >> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little >> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able >> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution >> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be >> full-time students in the year following their election, and a >> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long >> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join >> and aid in the cause. >> >> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >> > >> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle illness! >> > for today, Car >> > >> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >>Hi Ariel, >> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which >> >> is >> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >> >> Sam >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> >>Silverman >> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> >> >> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could >> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is >> >> led >> >>by blind people with mental illness. >> >>Arielle >> >> >> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >> > Hi everyone, >> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ >> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along >> >>with blindness. >> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and >> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow >> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is >> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day >> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. >> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a >> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program >> >> > and how they do things. >> >> > >> >> > Sam >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >> >> > Taurasi >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> > >> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of >> >> > that >> >>guardianship. >> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case >> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects >> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, >> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But >> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" >> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if >> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >> >> > Beth >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> > >> >> > Hello all, >> >> > >> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then >> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with >> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it >> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> > >> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the >> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is >> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather >> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people >> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >> >> > that just doesn't make sense. >> >> > >> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself >> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are >> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't >> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important >> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had >> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this >> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? >> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are >> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit >> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >> >> > Sorry for the rant. >> >> > >> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >> >> > happen again. >> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >> >> > be the darling of >> >> > >> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> >> > chapters and >> >> > >> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. >> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >> >> > grew up in >> >> > >> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> >> > Best Wishes >> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> >> > withmultipledisabilities? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >> >>special interest. >> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then >> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't >> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general >> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about >> >> > whether >> >>to keep having these religious invocations? >> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects >> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> > >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >> >> > But the >> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the >> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >> >> > occurring. >> >> > >> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >> >> > diverse. I also >> >> > >> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >> >> > they have >> >> > >> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together >> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >> >>people. >> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >> >> > announcement and >> >> > >> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >> >> > purposes. >> >> > >> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >> >> > changes >> >> > >> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >> >> > what happens. >> >> > Have a blessed day. >> >> > Best Wishes >> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> > > >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> >> > multipledisabilities? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > >> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >> >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >> >> > help >> >>them with. >> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >> >> > I >> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> > >> >> > Best, >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> >> > Joe and others, >> >> > >> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> >> > >> >> > to >> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one >> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we >> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our >> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as >> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are >> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is >> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force >> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is >> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. >> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >> >> > at some point. >> >> > However, I >> >> > got >> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information >> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the >> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. >> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this >> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> > >> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >> >> > difference. >> >> > Frankly, >> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work >> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can >> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids >> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the >> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB >> >>reader? >> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a >> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software >> >> > on a computer screen instead of having >> >> > >> >> > to >> >> > educate every person who writes >> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >> >> > for us >> >> > >> >> > to >> >> > control the Google self-driving cars >> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really >> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on >> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. >> >> > But it also means that we change. >> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. >> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of >> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >> >> > an organization. >> >> > >> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a >> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated >> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have >> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> >> > Legislating >> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate >> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter >> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't >> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> > >> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. >> >> > >> >> > Best regards, >> >> > >> >> > Steve Jacobson >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Arielle, >> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >> > >> >> > Joe, >> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to >> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less >> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >> >> > still within our local chapters. >> >> > >> >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> > >> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Hi Joe, >> >> > >> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >> >> > drawings and the like. >> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> >>sources. >> >> > So >> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a >> >> > loss of programs and resources. >> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in >> >> > the organization. >> >> > >> >> > Arielle >> >> > >> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >> >> > wrote: >> >> > Hello all. >> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> >> > Thanks. >> >> > Mike >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: RJ Sandefur >> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >> >> > mailing list >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> > >> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >> >>mentoor. >> >> > RJ >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Joe" > >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> > > >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in >> >> > the company >> >> > >> >> > of >> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the >> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited >> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent >> >>gatherings. >> >> > >> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it >> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen >> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or >> >> > that >> >>effort. >> >> > I >> >> > found >> >> > it >> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps >> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >> >> > so-called friends from whom >> >> > >> >> > I >> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> >> > fundraising campaigns. >> >> > >> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >> >> > national in scope. >> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> >> > >> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> >> > professionals. >> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they >> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because they >> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have >> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >> >> > organization. I had too much of >> >> > >> >> > a >> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could >> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some >> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >> >> > sustaining. >> >> > >> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >> >> > want >> >> > >> >> > it >> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner >> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >> > >> >> > to >> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world >> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has >> >> > seen >> >>to that. >> >> > Whether >> >> > or >> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >> >> > it to exist. >> >> > >> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our >> >>camp. >> >> > The >> >> > few >> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> >> > lesson in financial management to you. >> >> > >> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of >> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste >> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher >> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I >> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to >> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >> >> > >> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt >> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> >> > >> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what >> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> > >> >> > Joe >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> > >> >> > Visit my blog: >> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > 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http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> >> > mail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >> >> > t104%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Kaiti >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >> >> > 07%40comcast.net >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >> >> > on.net >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- >> >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> >> > protection is active. >> >> > http://www.avast.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> >> > com >> >> > >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >>--- >> >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> >>protection is active. >> >>http://www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 11:12:05 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 04:12:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> Message-ID: <81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com> But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for someone who cannot speak for themselves? The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one can hope to be in another person's best interest. I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time and it will not be the last time. This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi wrote: > > I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does not make me unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of people like me, Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in point, a guy called Mike. He was a world class runner before the prodromal symtpoms, the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer speaks, rather he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't even speak for himself, much less others. > Beth > >> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> Good evening, Kaiti, >> >> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? >> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> I think a good thing might look something like this: >>> >>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some >>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill >>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going >>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have >>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a >>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might >>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little >>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able >>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution >>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be >>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a >>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long >>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join >>> and aid in the cause. >>> >>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >>> > >>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle illness! >>> > for today, Car >>> > >>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >>> >>Hi Ariel, >>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which >>> >> is >>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >>> >> Sam >>> >> >>> >>-----Original Message----- >>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> >>Silverman >>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >>> >> >>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could >>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is >>> >> led >>> >>by blind people with mental illness. >>> >>Arielle >>> >> >>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >>> >> > Hi everyone, >>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ >>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along >>> >>with blindness. >>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and >>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow >>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is >>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day >>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. >>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a >>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program >>> >> > and how they do things. >>> >> > >>> >> > Sam >>> >> > >>> >> > -----Original Message----- >>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>> >> > Taurasi >>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >> > >>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of >>> >> > that >>> >>guardianship. >>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case >>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects >>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, >>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But >>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" >>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if >>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >>> >> > Beth >>> >> > >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton >> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>> >> > >>> >> > Hello all, >>> >> > >>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we >>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and >>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then >>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with >>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it >>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>> >> > >>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, >>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the >>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is >>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather >>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people >>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >>> >> > that just doesn't make sense. >>> >> > >>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself >>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are >>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't >>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important >>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had >>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this >>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention? >>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are >>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit >>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >>> >> > Sorry for the rant. >>> >> > >>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never >>> >> > happen again. >>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then >>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the >>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and >>> >> > be the darling of >>> >> > >>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>> >> > chapters and >>> >> > >>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering >>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. >>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >>> >> > grew up in >>> >> > >>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>> >> > Best Wishes >>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >> > >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> > >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>> >> > withmultipledisabilities? >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to >>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the >>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely >>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every >>> >>special interest. >>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then >>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't >>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general >>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about >>> >> > whether >>> >>to keep having these religious invocations? >>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects >>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we >>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed >>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle >>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>> >> > >>> >> > Arielle >>> >> > >>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >>> >> > But the >>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the >>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not >>> >> > occurring. >>> >> > >>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more >>> >> > diverse. I also >>> >> > >>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if >>> >> > they have >>> >> > >>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything >>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together >>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered >>> >>people. >>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>> >> > announcement and >>> >> > >>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left >>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that >>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social >>> >> > purposes. >>> >> > >>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more >>> >> > changes >>> >> > >>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see >>> >> > what happens. >>> >> > Have a blessed day. >>> >> > Best Wishes >>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> >> > >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> > >> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>> >> > multipledisabilities? >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > Hi all, >>> >> > >>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of >>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and >>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people >>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when >>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly >>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from >>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel >>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to >>> >> > help >>> >>them with. >>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions >>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a >>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its >>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >>> >> > I >>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are >>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't >>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just >>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think >>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and >>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about >>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole >>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be >>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something >>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going >>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>> >> > >>> >> > Best, >>> >> > Arielle >>> >> > >>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>> >> > Joe and others, >>> >> > >>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we >>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>> >> > >>> >> > to >>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one >>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we >>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our >>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as >>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are >>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with >>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is >>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force >>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is >>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. >>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the >>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information >>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to >>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that >>> >> > at some point. >>> >> > However, I >>> >> > got >>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information >>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the >>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. >>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this >>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>> >> > >>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. >>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>> >> > difference. >>> >> > Frankly, >>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work >>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can >>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids >>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the >>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB >>> >>reader? >>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a >>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software >>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having >>> >> > >>> >> > to >>> >> > educate every person who writes >>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way >>> >> > for us >>> >> > >>> >> > to >>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars >>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at >>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really >>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on >>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. >>> >> > But it also means that we change. >>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. >>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of >>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as >>> >> > an organization. >>> >> > >>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does >>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a >>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated >>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have >>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. >>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>> >> > Legislating >>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate >>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter >>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't >>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem >>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick >>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and >>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>> >> > >>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact >>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we >>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need >>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us >>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out >>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the >>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. >>> >> > >>> >> > Best regards, >>> >> > >>> >> > Steve Jacobson >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > Arielle, >>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >> > >>> >> > Joe, >>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members >>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to >>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less >>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >>> >> > still within our local chapters. >>> >> > >>> >> > Sent from my iPhone >>> >> > >>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> >> > wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > Hi Joe, >>> >> > >>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>> >> > drawings and the like. >>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>> >>sources. >>> >> > So >>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a >>> >> > loss of programs and resources. >>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in >>> >> > the organization. >>> >> > >>> >> > Arielle >>> >> > >>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> > Hello all. >>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>> >> > Thanks. >>> >> > Mike >>> >> > >>> >> > -----Original Message----- >>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur >>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>> >> > mailing list >>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >> > >>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>> >>mentoor. >>> >> > RJ >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: "Joe" >> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >> > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in >>> >> > the company >>> >> > >>> >> > of >>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as >>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as >>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the >>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited >>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent >>> >>gatherings. >>> >> > >>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it >>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen >>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or >>> >> > that >>> >>effort. >>> >> > I >>> >> > found >>> >> > it >>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps >>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >>> >> > so-called friends from whom >>> >> > >>> >> > I >>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>> >> > fundraising campaigns. >>> >> > >>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >>> >> > national in scope. >>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>> >> > >>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>> >> > professionals. >>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they >>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because they >>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have >>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >>> >> > organization. I had too much of >>> >> > >>> >> > a >>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could >>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>> >> > sustaining. >>> >> > >>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>> >> > want >>> >> > >>> >> > it >>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner >>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>> >> > >>> >> > to >>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world >>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has >>> >> > seen >>> >>to that. >>> >> > Whether >>> >> > or >>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>> >> > it to exist. >>> >> > >>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our >>> >>camp. >>> >> > The >>> >> > few >>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>> >> > lesson in financial management to you. >>> >> > >>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of >>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste >>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher >>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I >>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to >>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >>> >> > >>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt >>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>> >> > >>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what >>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >> > >>> >> > Joe >>> >> > >>> >> > -- >>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >> > >>> >> > Visit my blog: >>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> > for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>> >> > ndefur%40gmail.com >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>> >> > le%40frontier.com >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> >> > mail.com >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> 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>>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> >> > mail.com >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>> >> > mail.com >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>> >> > mail.com >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l 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get your account info for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >>> >> > 07%40comcast.net >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >>> >> > on.net >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > --- >>> >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> >> > protection is active. >>> >> > http://www.avast.com >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> > nabs-l: >>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> >> > com >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >>nabs-l mailing list >>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>nabs-l: >>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>--- >>> >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> >>protection is active. >>> >>http://www.avast.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >>nabs-l mailing list >>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From anjelinac at att.net Fri Apr 4 13:51:17 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (anjelinac at att.net) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:51:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground Message-ID: Morning all, let's be proactive! I have read so many great messages and wonderful ideas related to the topic of mental health. Let's get this started! Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can all meet? Would a conference call help so we can brainstorm some ideas? I would encourage someone who has started to get a division going to help us out. I really hope we can get this going. Sent from my iPhone From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 13:54:38 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:54:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health andmultiple disabilities group off the ground References: Message-ID: <423E173021E047AF8086180F487D7AC6@robert9999b7cf> If anyone has skype, I'll be glad to assist. My skype name is smallistbaby1979 I am blind, and have CP. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 9:51 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health andmultiple disabilities group off the ground > Morning all, let's be proactive! I have read so many great messages and > wonderful ideas related to the topic of mental health. Let's get this > started! > Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can all meet? Would a > conference call help so we can brainstorm some ideas? I would encourage > someone who has started to get a division going to help us out. I really > hope we can get this going. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 14:05:13 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 07:05:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If this is something that people are interested, I would suggest that you get a group of people together to brainstorm. Once you get a group of people together who are interested and are talking about ideas, you bring your proposal to Dr Maurer based upon what he says, then you can move forward as appropriate. I don't think that there's too much you're going to need help with beyond that, but I'm happy to be a resource because I've been through some of these steps. Darian This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Apr 4, 2014, at 6:51 AM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: > > Morning all, let's be proactive! I have read so many great messages and wonderful ideas related to the topic of mental health. Let's get this started! > Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can all meet? Would a conference call help so we can brainstorm some ideas? I would encourage someone who has started to get a division going to help us out. I really hope we can get this going. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From anjelinac at att.net Fri Apr 4 14:09:32 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (anjelinac at att.net) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:09:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Darian! Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 4, 2014, at 10:05 AM, Darian wrote: > > If this is something that people are interested, I would suggest that you get a group of people together to brainstorm. > Once you get a group of people together who are interested and are talking about ideas, you bring your proposal to Dr Maurer based upon what he says, then you can move forward as appropriate. > I don't think that there's too much you're going to need help with beyond that, but I'm happy to be a resource because I've been through some of these steps. > Darian > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 6:51 AM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >> >> Morning all, let's be proactive! I have read so many great messages and wonderful ideas related to the topic of mental health. Let's get this started! >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can all meet? Would a conference call help so we can brainstorm some ideas? I would encourage someone who has started to get a division going to help us out. I really hope we can get this going. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net From nelsonsam68 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 15:25:37 2014 From: nelsonsam68 at gmail.com (Sam Nelson) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:25:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019a01cf501a$225ce9c0$6716bd40$@gmail.com> Hi Angila, The best I can offer is that anyone who's blind and has mental illness can join my mailing list where you can have a supportive community behind you on issues that you're struggling with. Beyond that I don't have any ideas around how to get an actual physical group started to address issues in a political way. Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of anjelinac at att.net Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 9:10 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground Thanks Darian! Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 4, 2014, at 10:05 AM, Darian wrote: > > If this is something that people are interested, I would suggest that you get a group of people together to brainstorm. > Once you get a group of people together who are interested and are talking about ideas, you bring your proposal to Dr Maurer based upon what he says, then you can move forward as appropriate. > I don't think that there's too much you're going to need help with beyond that, but I'm happy to be a resource because I've been through some of these steps. > Darian > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 6:51 AM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >> >> Morning all, let's be proactive! I have read so many great messages and wonderful ideas related to the topic of mental health. Let's get this started! >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can all meet? Would a conference call help so we can brainstorm some ideas? I would encourage someone who has started to get a division going to help us out. I really hope we can get this going. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Apr 4 15:32:40 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 09:32:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <533ED098.8010709@comcast.net> I've got to do this with you too, Anjelina. Let's do a conference call and I'll talk a bit about some ideas with you all. Those of us interested should contact me at eataurasi at gmail.com Also, my phone number I'll give to you guys. Thanks. We'll do a conference call soon, and I have a room set up for that purpose. Thanks. Beth On 4/4/2014 7:51 AM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: > Morning all, let's be proactive! I have read so many great messages and wonderful ideas related to the topic of mental health. Let's get this started! > Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can all meet? Would a conference call help so we can brainstorm some ideas? I would encourage someone who has started to get a division going to help us out. I really hope we can get this going. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 15:39:50 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 11:39:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground References: <533ED098.8010709@comcast.net> Message-ID: I'm interested Beth, but i can't do conference calls. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth Taurasi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground > I've got to do this with you too, Anjelina. Let's do a conference call > and I'll talk a bit about some ideas with you all. Those of us interested > should contact me at eataurasi at gmail.com Also, my phone number I'll give > to you guys. Thanks. We'll do a conference call soon, and I have a room > set up for that purpose. Thanks. > Beth > > On 4/4/2014 7:51 AM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >> Morning all, let's be proactive! I have read so many great messages and >> wonderful ideas related to the topic of mental health. Let's get this >> started! >> Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can all meet? Would a >> conference call help so we can brainstorm some ideas? I would encourage >> someone who has started to get a division going to help us out. I really >> hope we can get this going. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 15:45:24 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 11:45:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> <81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Carly et al, Perhaps Darian explained what I meant before I had a chance to see your message, but I'm a little puzzled by your confusion. I was merely suggesting that this group include those who wish to support others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary, and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational experience better for us. This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested in giving support to join. Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness, but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division a few months ago, where several members were offended because they interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about. On 4/4/14, Darian wrote: > But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for someone who > cannot speak for themselves? > The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one can hope to be > in another person's best interest. > I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time and it will > not be the last time. > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi >> wrote: >> >> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of >> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does not make me >> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those >> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves >> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of people like me, >> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not >> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by >> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in point, a guy >> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the prodromal symtpoms, >> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer speaks, rather >> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't >> even speak for himself, much less others. >> Beth >> >>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> Good evening, Kaiti, >>> >>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called >>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation >>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of >>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? >>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> I think a good thing might look something like this: >>>> >>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some >>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill >>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going >>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have >>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a >>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might >>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little >>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able >>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution >>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be >>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a >>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long >>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join >>>> and aid in the cause. >>>> >>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >>>> > >>>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle >>>> > illness! >>>> > for today, Car >>>> > >>>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >>>> >>Hi Ariel, >>>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. >>>> >> Which >>>> >> is >>>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >>>> >> Sam >>>> >> >>>> >>-----Original Message----- >>>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>> >>Silverman >>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >>>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >>>> >> >>>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division >>>> >> could >>>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that >>>> >> is >>>> >> led >>>> >>by blind people with mental illness. >>>> >>Arielle >>>> >> >>>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >>>> >> > Hi everyone, >>>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >>>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between >>>> >> > support/ >>>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities >>>> >> > along >>>> >>with blindness. >>>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >>>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists >>>> >> > and >>>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >>>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >>>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >>>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >>>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't >>>> >> > allow >>>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >>>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >>>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it >>>> >> > is >>>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to >>>> >> > day >>>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >>>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. >>>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >>>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >>>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere >>>> >> > for a >>>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the >>>> >> > program >>>> >> > and how they do things. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Sam >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >>>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>> >> > Taurasi >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >>>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >>>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because >>>> >> > of >>>> >> > that >>>> >>guardianship. >>>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >>>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a >>>> >> > case >>>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it >>>> >> > affects >>>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >>>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep >>>> >> > down, >>>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. >>>> >> > But >>>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >>>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 >>>> >> > "unpersons" >>>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and >>>> >> > if >>>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >>>> >> > Beth >>>> >> > >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton >>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >> > >>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Hello all, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, >>>> >> > (we >>>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), >>>> >> > and >>>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >>>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >>>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >>>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >>>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >>>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, >>>> >> > then >>>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships >>>> >> > with >>>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >>>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >>>> >> > it >>>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree >>>> >> > described, >>>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >>>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >>>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion >>>> >> > is >>>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars >>>> >> > rather >>>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind >>>> >> > people >>>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >>>> >> > that just doesn't make sense. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label >>>> >> > myself >>>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature >>>> >> > are >>>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives >>>> >> > aren't >>>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is >>>> >> > important >>>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB >>>> >> > had >>>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >>>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in >>>> >> > this >>>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of >>>> >> > convention? >>>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >>>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >>>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >>>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us >>>> >> > are >>>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to >>>> >> > suit >>>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >>>> >> > Sorry for the rant. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will >>>> >> > never >>>> >> > happen again. >>>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and >>>> >> > then >>>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight >>>> >> > and >>>> >> > be the darling of >>>> >> > >>>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>>> >> > chapters and >>>> >> > >>>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and >>>> >> > wondering >>>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. >>>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >>>> >> > grew up in >>>> >> > >>>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >>>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>>> >> > Best Wishes >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >> > >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >> > >>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>>> >> > withmultipledisabilities? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I >>>> >> > completely >>>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for >>>> >> > every >>>> >>special interest. >>>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >>>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >>>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and >>>> >> > then >>>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We >>>> >> > can't >>>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >>>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the >>>> >> > general >>>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about >>>> >> > whether >>>> >>to keep having these religious invocations? >>>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that >>>> >> > reflects >>>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, >>>> >> > we >>>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are >>>> >> > formed >>>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the >>>> >> > hassle >>>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Arielle >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >>>> >> > But the >>>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is >>>> >> > not >>>> >> > occurring. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become >>>> >> > more >>>> >> > diverse. I also >>>> >> > >>>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that >>>> >> > if >>>> >> > they have >>>> >> > >>>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do >>>> >> > anything >>>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>> >> > together >>>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>> >> > transgendered >>>> >>people. >>>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>> >> > announcement and >>>> >> > >>>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people >>>> >> > left >>>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and >>>> >> > that >>>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>> >> > social >>>> >> > purposes. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many >>>> >> > more >>>> >> > changes >>>> >> > >>>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and >>>> >> > see >>>> >> > what happens. >>>> >> > Have a blessed day. >>>> >> > Best Wishes >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>> >> > >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >> > >>> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>> >> > multipledisabilities? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Hi all, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>> >> > of >>>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>> >> > and >>>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that >>>> >> > people >>>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>> >> > when >>>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be >>>> >> > highly >>>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort >>>> >> > from >>>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can >>>> >> > feel >>>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > help >>>> >>them with. >>>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more >>>> >> > divisions >>>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is >>>> >> > a >>>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about >>>> >> > its >>>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>> >> > wheelchair >>>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >>>> >> > I >>>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there >>>> >> > are >>>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions >>>> >> > don't >>>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there >>>> >> > just >>>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I >>>> >> > think >>>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, >>>> >> > and >>>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education >>>> >> > about >>>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a >>>> >> > whole >>>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would >>>> >> > be >>>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is >>>> >> > something >>>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>> >> > going >>>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Best, >>>> >> > Arielle >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>> >> > Joe and others, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and >>>> >> > we >>>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>> >> > >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one >>>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong >>>> >> > as >>>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >>>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than >>>> >> > we >>>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >>>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at >>>> >> > our >>>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes >>>> >> > as >>>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes >>>> >> > are >>>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree >>>> >> > with >>>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >>>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >>>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >>>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There >>>> >> > is >>>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will >>>> >> > force >>>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this >>>> >> > is >>>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >>>> >> > information >>>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do >>>> >> > that >>>> >> > at some point. >>>> >> > However, I >>>> >> > got >>>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >>>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting >>>> >> > information >>>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >>>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >>>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a >>>> >> > KNFB >>>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >>>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >>>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our >>>> >> > efforts. >>>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >>>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >>>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of >>>> >> > this >>>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all >>>> >> > this. >>>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. >>>> >> > We >>>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>> >> > difference. >>>> >> > Frankly, >>>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't >>>> >> > work >>>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you >>>> >> > can >>>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand >>>> >> > kids >>>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the >>>> >> > KNFB >>>> >>reader? >>>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see >>>> >> > a >>>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret >>>> >> > software >>>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having >>>> >> > >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > educate every person who writes >>>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a >>>> >> > way >>>> >> > for us >>>> >> > >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars >>>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that >>>> >> > at >>>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't >>>> >> > really >>>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >>>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect >>>> >> > on >>>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for >>>> >> > that. >>>> >> > But it also means that we change. >>>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>> >> > change. >>>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges >>>> >> > of >>>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >>>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and >>>> >> > as >>>> >> > an organization. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing >>>> >> > does >>>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>> >> > a >>>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>> >> > Incorporated >>>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >>>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to >>>> >> > have >>>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one >>>> >> > tool. >>>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >>>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>> >> > Legislating >>>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>> >> > discriminate >>>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't >>>> >> > matter >>>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training >>>> >> > won't >>>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >>>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that >>>> >> > problem >>>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't >>>> >> > pick >>>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, >>>> >> > and >>>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to >>>> >> > impact >>>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where >>>> >> > we >>>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what >>>> >> > can >>>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we >>>> >> > need >>>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set >>>> >> > us >>>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching >>>> >> > out >>>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Best regards, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Steve Jacobson >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Arielle, >>>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Joe, >>>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >>>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >>>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs >>>> >> > members >>>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >>>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us >>>> >> > less >>>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >>>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >>>> >> > still within our local chapters. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> >> > >>> >> > wrote: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Hi Joe, >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>> >> > saying >>>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt >>>> >> > like >>>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with >>>> >> > all >>>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet >>>> >> > that >>>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with >>>> >> > prize >>>> >> > drawings and the like. >>>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it >>>> >> > is >>>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>> >>sources. >>>> >> > So >>>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be >>>> >> > a >>>> >> > loss of programs and resources. >>>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>> >> > judgment >>>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception >>>> >> > only, >>>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >>>> >> > that >>>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am >>>> >> > not >>>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >>>> >> > all >>>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have >>>> >> > a >>>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or >>>> >> > division >>>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >>>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to >>>> >> > in >>>> >> > the organization. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Arielle >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >>>> >> > wrote: >>>> >> > Hello all. >>>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>> >> > own >>>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>> >> > Thanks. >>>> >> > Mike >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >>>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>> >> > mailing list >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>> >>mentoor. >>>> >> > RJ >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >> > From: "Joe" >>> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >> > >>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>> >> > there >>>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be >>>> >> > in >>>> >> > the company >>>> >> > >>>> >> > of >>>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>> >> > as >>>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer >>>> >> > as >>>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >>>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very >>>> >> > well-suited >>>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >>>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those >>>> >> > infrequent >>>> >>gatherings. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>> >> > it >>>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>> >> > rather >>>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into >>>> >> > listen >>>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund >>>> >> > or >>>> >> > that >>>> >>effort. >>>> >> > I >>>> >> > found >>>> >> > it >>>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >>>> >> > monthly >>>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus >>>> >> > of >>>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>> >> > perhaps >>>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails >>>> >> > from >>>> >> > so-called friends from whom >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I >>>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>> >> > NFB >>>> >> > fundraising campaigns. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>> >> > about >>>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>> >> > development >>>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >>>> >> > national in scope. >>>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>> >> > professionals. >>>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>> >> > ever >>>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but >>>> >> > they >>>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because >>>> >> > they >>>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should >>>> >> > have >>>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >>>> >> > organization. I had too much of >>>> >> > >>>> >> > a >>>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>> >> > could >>>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >>>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>> >> > sustaining. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>> >> > don't >>>> >> > want >>>> >> > >>>> >> > it >>>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>> >> > know >>>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>> >> > the >>>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>> >> > banner >>>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >>>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. >>>> >> > The >>>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>> >> > >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>> >> > and >>>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >>>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>> >> > world >>>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology >>>> >> > has >>>> >> > seen >>>> >>to that. >>>> >> > Whether >>>> >> > or >>>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>> >> > want >>>> >> > it to exist. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>> >> > what >>>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? >>>> >> > They >>>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in >>>> >> > our >>>> >>camp. >>>> >> > The >>>> >> > few >>>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be >>>> >> > a >>>> >> > lesson in financial management to you. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>> >> > only >>>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >>>> >> > of >>>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >>>> >> > taste >>>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the >>>> >> > teacher >>>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, >>>> >> > I >>>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want >>>> >> > to >>>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>> >> > I >>>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>> >> > attempt >>>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>> >> > what >>>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Joe >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -- >>>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Visit my blog: >>>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>>> >> > ndefur%40gmail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>> >> > le%40frontier.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>> >> > mail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >>>> >> > 40gmail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >>>> >> > n%40visi.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>> >> > mail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>>> >> > mail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>> >> > mail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>>> >> > mail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>> >> > t104%40gmail.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > -- >>>> >> > Kaiti >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >>>> >> > 07%40comcast.net >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >>>> >> > on.net >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > --- >>>> >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >>>> >> > Antivirus >>>> >> > protection is active. >>>> >> > http://www.avast.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> >> > for >>>> >> > nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> >> > com >>>> >> > >>>> >> >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> >>nabs-l: >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>--- >>>> >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> >>protection is active. >>>> >>http://www.avast.com >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 15:52:40 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 11:52:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB PS In-Reply-To: <20BCC99D-13C7-48BF-9A35-E77549EF70EB@gmail.com> References: <20BCC99D-13C7-48BF-9A35-E77549EF70EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Sandra, I feel you on the library issue; I know a girl from the UK who is about my age, and she's told me stories about things that have happened to her RNIB books. However, as Darian says, I do wish we had some of the transportation options that Europeans have. It would be so nice to use a train to get from point A to point B, and though we do have them in the U.S, we don't have many of them. Kind of something silly, but I tend to travel a lot in the summers. Funny story though. Our music section of the Library of Congress isn't as big as I would have hoped it would be. There aren't that many books for my instrument. I tried to get an etude book in braille music, and first was told that it didn't exist. Then I asked about the second book in the series, even though I wasn't working on it yet, and I was told that it had been brailled, but it would have to be borrowed from RNIB and then shipped to me, a process which could take a really long time to sort out between the two libraries. I wonder why the two libraries can't interact more for the sharing of materials? Do you guys have a counterpart to bookshare? Honestly, I prefer using it to Web Braille, because I think the books are higher quality. I also never use BARD so it's kind of pointless to even deal with it when Bookshare is available. On 4/4/14, Darian Smith wrote: > Hi Sandra, > I'm sure that we have an appreciation for what we have. Many of us here > have contributed in one way or another to what the NFB is today. > I think this concern comes from a place where people care about what's > going on and want to make a change, and hopefully this is what comes of it. > > Besides I'm sure that there are things people in Europe complain about > that americans would roll their eyes at *smile*. > Darian > On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:41 AM, Sandra Gayer wrote: > >> Hello again, >> While I'm ranting about privaleges In America, you guys have web >> Braille while we still have to put up with Braille books being bent in >> half and sometimes ripped by members of our loving postal service. >> >> I'm sorry I'm coming across as a grumpy old woman before my time, hee >> hee! I'm just saying, be greatful for what you have and if you don't >> like having what the rest of us can only fantasize about, change what >> you can. If that doesn't work, build your own organisation whereyou >> can implement your ideas for change. I'm sure that's how The NFB >> started; someone had a dream about how they could make the world a >> better place for visually impaired people. From where I'm sitting, >> they're not doing a bad job! >> >> Very best wishes, >> Sandra. >> >> On 4/4/14, Sandra Gayer wrote: >>> Hello everyone, >>> It's hard for me to sit here and listen to all this. I'm in Europe and >>> we don't have any of the opportunities you're complaining about; >>> conventions, visually impaired leaders, independence philosophy etc. >>> You could always live in England where there's disability specific >>> hate crime! You wouldn't have any 'Youth Slams' to organise or >>> complain about here, trust me! You certainly wouldn't have the luxury >>> of criticising how a visually impaired national gathering is run >>> because they are very rare here. As for visually impaired people at >>> the top of an organisation, don't make me laugh! >>> >>> Very best wishes, >>> Sandra. >>> >>> On 4/3/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>>> Jedi, >>>> >>>> Extremely well said. Your ease with words, and adeptedness when writing >>>> on >>>> a >>>> mobile device both deserve my public acknowledgement for a job well >>>> done. >>>> >>>> May I say, tongue in cheek, that you inspire me. Smiles. >>>> >>>> >>>> Antonio M Guimaraes Jr. >>>> >>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:32 PM, Jedi Moerke >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea >>>>> where >>>>> to start! >>>>> >>>>> I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that >>>>> I >>>>> have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I can >>>>> say >>>>> that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I had >>>>> nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In >>>>> short, >>>>> I >>>>> felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there some >>>>> people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this >>>>> way? Yes. But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the >>>>> federation were also to blame. >>>>> >>>>> My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. >>>>> I >>>>> honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the knowledge >>>>> and >>>>> experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers >>>>> to >>>>> organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every >>>>> aspect of the organization and initially felt that the organization >>>>> and >>>>> its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences >>>>> radically >>>>> shifted my opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely >>>>> disoriented. Self reflection caused me to recognize a few things that >>>>> might be relevant to this discussion. >>>>> >>>>> First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization >>>>> and >>>>> the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the >>>>> Federation >>>>> our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to support >>>>> all >>>>> blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say >>>>> that, >>>>> in >>>>> everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the >>>>> attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short >>>>> sometimes >>>>> for one reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really >>>>> believe >>>>> that it is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive >>>>> toward >>>>> our stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our hearts >>>>> and >>>>> a bad attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others toward >>>>> our >>>>> organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that >>>>> challenge and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I >>>>> believe the membership I impacted also came out better as well. I also >>>>> believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. >>>>> >>>>> I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself >>>>> within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as >>>>> a >>>>> member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot of >>>>> personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a >>>>> member >>>>> is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I decided >>>>> to >>>>> do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for >>>>> it. >>>>> In >>>>> the process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other >>>>> people >>>>> in >>>>> the organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived >>>>> for >>>>> being a perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize >>>>> overtime >>>>> that there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and >>>>> that >>>>> it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the >>>>> organization? >>>>> Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other >>>>> areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say >>>>> to >>>>> hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about >>>>> them. >>>>> That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make >>>>> some >>>>> good points and recommendations for what blind people can do to better >>>>> themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations truly >>>>> do >>>>> make a difference. It's up to you whether or not you are willing to >>>>> assess >>>>> your own life to determine what recommendations will help you improve. >>>>> Everyone has room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down >>>>> whatever defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you >>>>> might find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't >>>>> helpful >>>>> to you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to >>>>> offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there >>>>> are >>>>> also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday be >>>>> added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness to >>>>> speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the >>>>> Federation. >>>>> But that can't happen if you decide to leave. >>>>> >>>>> I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be >>>>> undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our >>>>> organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The >>>>> field >>>>> of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are >>>>> willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We have >>>>> learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We >>>>> now >>>>> know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. >>>>> Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making some >>>>> things >>>>> easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate for >>>>> ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way we >>>>> express ourselves is going to change. But that does not mean that our >>>>> mission has changed. And yes, we have taken on a few initiatives that >>>>> cost >>>>> a lot of money. In the current budgetary climate, we do need to work >>>>> harder at raising some funds in order to keep these initiatives >>>>> afloat. >>>>> That said, I believe the national organization recognizes that not >>>>> everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. I think the >>>>> national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us to >>>>> participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our >>>>> participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal >>>>> contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the >>>>> organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to >>>>> sell >>>>> things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind >>>>> campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you >>>>> to >>>>> do >>>>> what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have >>>>> more >>>>> enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or >>>>> public >>>>> education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning >>>>> about >>>>> our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are >>>>> members >>>>> who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways >>>>> really. >>>>> >>>>> As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's >>>>> comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured >>>>> discovery >>>>> perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect >>>>> way >>>>> to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching >>>>> people >>>>> the skills they need to make sense of the world and to act in it >>>>> given >>>>> their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a >>>>> person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who does >>>>> not >>>>> push a student out of their comfort zone is no teacher at all. And it >>>>> doesn't really matter if that teacher is a travel instructor or a >>>>> mentor >>>>> at convention. The best teachers keep students in a sweet spot where >>>>> they >>>>> are definitely challenged, but not so challenged as to make the >>>>> experience >>>>> a total wash. If you are the student so to speak and find yourself >>>>> with >>>>> a >>>>> teacher who either doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your >>>>> ability, >>>>> then it is your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in >>>>> that >>>>> sweet spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between >>>>> your >>>>> actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, >>>>> if >>>>> you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it >>>>> wrong >>>>> anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no >>>>> matter what kind of blind person you are. >>>>> >>>>> At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that >>>>> those >>>>> of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not >>>>> alone. Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with >>>>> the >>>>> territory of being one member among many within a vast organization >>>>> whose >>>>> membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to >>>>> people about your experience as you will likely find someone who has >>>>> been >>>>> there and who can be both a support system and an advisor to you as to >>>>> what you might do to find your place among us once again. Like I said, >>>>> I >>>>> have been there before and I am still working on finding my place. I'm >>>>> not >>>>> really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident >>>>> that >>>>> I >>>>> will nonetheless. >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> Jedi >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I >>>>>> somehow >>>>>> repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get >>>>>> quite >>>>>> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has >>>>>> brought >>>>>> up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two >>>>>> things >>>>>> primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >>>>>> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in >>>>>> hand >>>>>> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >>>>>> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >>>>>> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and >>>>>> want >>>>>> to >>>>>> be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, some not >>>>>> money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want >>>>>> to >>>>>> be >>>>>> members with no responsibility in the organization. >>>>>> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an >>>>>> effort >>>>>> to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their >>>>>> needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over >>>>>> time >>>>>> will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as >>>>>> people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people in >>>>>> our >>>>>> chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we >>>>>> need >>>>>> to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can >>>>>> do >>>>>> and simply giving up won't solve the problem. It of course is >>>>>> totally >>>>>> possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn't very >>>>>> receptive >>>>>> to >>>>>> new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation >>>>>> stands >>>>>> for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, >>>>>> then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is >>>>>> very >>>>>> important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >>>>>> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the >>>>>> movement. >>>>>> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of >>>>>> us >>>>>> know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do >>>>>> all >>>>>> of these things are important. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Darian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>> saying >>>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with >>>>>>> prize >>>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>> alternative >>>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>> judgment >>>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>>>> life, >>>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a >>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >>>>>>>>> monthly >>>>>>>>> dose >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>> generating >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>> top, >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>>>> resources >>>>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>> ever >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really >>>>>>>>> meant >>>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>>>> what I >>>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>>>> verge >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>> guide >>>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and >>>>>>>>> leave >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the >>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >>>>>>>>> seem >>>>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have >>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>> excel >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>>>> greater >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>> consume >>>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Soprano Singer >>> www.sandragayer.com >>> >>> Broadcast Presenter >>> >>> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html >>> >>> Voiceover Artist >>> >>> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer >>> >> >> >> -- >> Soprano Singer >> www.sandragayer.com >> >> Broadcast Presenter >> >> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html >> >> Voiceover Artist >> >> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 4 16:39:26 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 09:39:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> <81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140404093050.020e34c0@comcast.net> Good morning, Kaiti, Guess I failed to consider how supporting blind people with mental illness and as in my case, brain damage, is separate from those kind of blind people speaking for themselves. Would be interested as to whether such a group ever gets off the ground! for today, Car those who wish to support >others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student >divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are >concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support >is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which >state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily >in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has >students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary, >and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student >at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational >experience better for us. > >This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation >as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and >contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not >directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because >I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my >line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and >have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this >list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though >admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have >identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just >know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to >be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have >a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I >definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The >president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed >with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must >be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the >division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested >in giving support to join. > >Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that >emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside >member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the >situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the >members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness, >but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with >the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but >since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division >a few months ago, where several members were offended because they >interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help >from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be >helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from >having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not >just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about. > >On 4/4/14, Darian wrote: > > But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for someone who > > cannot speak for themselves? > > The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one can hope to be > > in another person's best interest. > > I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time and it will > > not be the last time. > > > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > > > >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi > >> wrote: > >> > >> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of > >> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does not make me > >> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those > >> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves > >> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of people like me, > >> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not > >> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by > >> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in point, a guy > >> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the prodromal symtpoms, > >> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer speaks, rather > >> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't > >> even speak for himself, much less others. > >> Beth > >> > >>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >>> Good evening, Kaiti, > >>> > >>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called > >>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation > >>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of > >>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? > >>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >>>> I think a good thing might look something like this: > >>>> > >>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some > >>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill > >>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going > >>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have > >>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a > >>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might > >>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little > >>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able > >>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as > >>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution > >>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be > >>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a > >>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long > >>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join > >>>> and aid in the cause. > >>>> > >>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >>>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, > >>>> > > >>>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle > >>>> > illness! > >>>> > for today, Car > >>>> > > >>>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: > >>>> >>Hi Ariel, > >>>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. > >>>> >> Which > >>>> >> is > >>>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. > >>>> >> Sam > >>>> >> > >>>> >>-----Original Message----- > >>>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > >>>> >>Silverman > >>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM > >>>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >>>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > >>>> >> > >>>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division > >>>> >> could > >>>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that > >>>> >> is > >>>> >> led > >>>> >>by blind people with mental illness. > >>>> >>Arielle > >>>> >> > >>>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: > >>>> >> > Hi everyone, > >>>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred > >>>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between > >>>> >> > support/ > >>>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities > >>>> >> > along > >>>> >>with blindness. > >>>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental > >>>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists > >>>> >> > and > >>>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how > >>>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of > >>>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how > >>>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a > >>>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't > >>>> >> > allow > >>>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. > >>>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > >>>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it > >>>> >> > is > >>>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to > >>>> >> > day > >>>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if > >>>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. > >>>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric > >>>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know > >>>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere > >>>> >> > for a > >>>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the > >>>> >> > program > >>>> >> > and how they do things. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Sam > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- > >>>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth > >>>> >> > Taurasi > >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing > >>>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because > >>>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because > >>>> >> > of > >>>> >> > that > >>>> >>guardianship. > >>>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they > >>>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a > >>>> >> > case > >>>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it > >>>> >> > affects > >>>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship > >>>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep > >>>> >> > down, > >>>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. > >>>> >> > But > >>>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such > >>>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 > >>>> >> > "unpersons" > >>>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and > >>>> >> > if > >>>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. > >>>> >> > Beth > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Hello all, > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, > >>>> >> > (we > >>>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), > >>>> >> > and > >>>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities > >>>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > >>>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a > >>>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > >>>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the > >>>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, > >>>> >> > then > >>>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships > >>>> >> > with > >>>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > >>>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased > >>>> >> > it > >>>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree > >>>> >> > described, > >>>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as > >>>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss > >>>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion > >>>> >> > is > >>>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars > >>>> >> > rather > >>>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind > >>>> >> > people > >>>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, > >>>> >> > that just doesn't make sense. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as > >>>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label > >>>> >> > myself > >>>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature > >>>> >> > are > >>>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives > >>>> >> > aren't > >>>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is > >>>> >> > important > >>>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB > >>>> >> > had > >>>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > >>>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in > >>>> >> > this > >>>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of > >>>> >> > convention? > >>>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I > >>>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > >>>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > >>>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us > >>>> >> > are > >>>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to > >>>> >> > suit > >>>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > >>>> >> > Sorry for the rant. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >>>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will > >>>> >> > never > >>>> >> > happen again. > >>>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and > >>>> >> > then > >>>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight > >>>> >> > and > >>>> >> > be the darling of > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > >>>> >> > chapters and > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and > >>>> >> > wondering > >>>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > >>>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. > >>>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and > >>>> >> > grew up in > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the > >>>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. > >>>> >> > Best Wishes > >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > >>>> >> > withmultipledisabilities? > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something > >>>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I > >>>> >> > completely > >>>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for > >>>> >> > every > >>>> >>special interest. > >>>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what > >>>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a > >>>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and > >>>> >> > then > >>>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We > >>>> >> > can't > >>>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically > >>>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the > >>>> >> > general > >>>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about > >>>> >> > whether > >>>> >>to keep having these religious invocations? > >>>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that > >>>> >> > reflects > >>>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, > >>>> >> > we > >>>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are > >>>> >> > formed > >>>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify > >>>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run > >>>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the > >>>> >> > hassle > >>>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the > >>>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a > >>>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Arielle > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >>>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > >>>> >> > But the > >>>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is > >>>> >> > not > >>>> >> > occurring. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a > >>>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become > >>>> >> > more > >>>> >> > diverse. I also > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that > >>>> >> > if > >>>> >> > they have > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do > >>>> >> > anything > >>>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came > >>>> >> > together > >>>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and > >>>> >> > transgendered > >>>> >>people. > >>>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > >>>> >> > announcement and > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people > >>>> >> > left > >>>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and > >>>> >> > that > >>>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for > >>>> >> > social > >>>> >> > purposes. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many > >>>> >> > more > >>>> >> > changes > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and > >>>> >> > see > >>>> >> > what happens. > >>>> >> > Have a blessed day. > >>>> >> > Best Wishes > >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >>>> >> > multipledisabilities? > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Hi all, > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > >>>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > >>>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number > >>>> >> > of > >>>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, > >>>> >> > and > >>>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >>>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > >>>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >>>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that > >>>> >> > people > >>>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >>>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >>>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true > >>>> >> > when > >>>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > >>>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >>>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be > >>>> >> > highly > >>>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort > >>>> >> > from > >>>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >>>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can > >>>> >> > feel > >>>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > >>>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > >>>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > >>>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > >>>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > >>>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >>>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > help > >>>> >>them with. > >>>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >>>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more > >>>> >> > divisions > >>>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is > >>>> >> > a > >>>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about > >>>> >> > its > >>>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >>>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind > >>>> >> > wheelchair > >>>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > >>>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. > >>>> >> > I > >>>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > >>>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there > >>>> >> > are > >>>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions > >>>> >> > don't > >>>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there > >>>> >> > just > >>>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I > >>>> >> > think > >>>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > >>>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, > >>>> >> > and > >>>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education > >>>> >> > about > >>>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a > >>>> >> > whole > >>>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would > >>>> >> > be > >>>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > >>>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is > >>>> >> > something > >>>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > >>>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > >>>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are > >>>> >> > going > >>>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Best, > >>>> >> > Arielle > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >>>> >> > Joe and others, > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >>>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and > >>>> >> > we > >>>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one > >>>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong > >>>> >> > as > >>>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an > >>>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than > >>>> >> > we > >>>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB > >>>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at > >>>> >> > our > >>>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes > >>>> >> > as > >>>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes > >>>> >> > are > >>>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree > >>>> >> > with > >>>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made > >>>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > >>>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by > >>>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There > >>>> >> > is > >>>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will > >>>> >> > force > >>>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this > >>>> >> > is > >>>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > >>>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. > >>>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting > >>>> >> > information > >>>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do > >>>> >> > that > >>>> >> > at some point. > >>>> >> > However, I > >>>> >> > got > >>>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the > >>>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting > >>>> >> > information > >>>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our > >>>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something > >>>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a > >>>> >> > KNFB > >>>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention > >>>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have > >>>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our > >>>> >> > efforts. > >>>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind > >>>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We > >>>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of > >>>> >> > this > >>>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all > >>>> >> > this. > >>>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. > >>>> >> > We > >>>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >>>> >> > difference. > >>>> >> > Frankly, > >>>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't > >>>> >> > work > >>>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you > >>>> >> > can > >>>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand > >>>> >> > kids > >>>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the > >>>> >> > KNFB > >>>> >>reader? > >>>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see > >>>> >> > a > >>>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret > >>>> >> > software > >>>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > educate every person who writes > >>>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a > >>>> >> > way > >>>> >> > for us > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars > >>>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that > >>>> >> > at > >>>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't > >>>> >> > really > >>>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots > >>>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect > >>>> >> > on > >>>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for > >>>> >> > that. > >>>> >> > But it also means that we change. > >>>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to > >>>> >> > change. > >>>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges > >>>> >> > of > >>>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, > >>>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and > >>>> >> > as > >>>> >> > an organization. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >>>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing > >>>> >> > does > >>>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions > >>>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >>>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as > >>>> >> > a > >>>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND > >>>> >> > Incorporated > >>>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the > >>>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to > >>>> >> > have > >>>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one > >>>> >> > tool. > >>>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > >>>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >>>> >> > Legislating > >>>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >>>> >> > discriminate > >>>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't > >>>> >> > matter > >>>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training > >>>> >> > won't > >>>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. > >>>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that > >>>> >> > problem > >>>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't > >>>> >> > pick > >>>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, > >>>> >> > and > >>>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to > >>>> >> > impact > >>>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. > >>>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where > >>>> >> > we > >>>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what > >>>> >> > can > >>>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we > >>>> >> > need > >>>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >>>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. > >>>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of > >>>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set > >>>> >> > us > >>>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching > >>>> >> > out > >>>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Best regards, > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Steve Jacobson > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Arielle, > >>>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Joe, > >>>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >>>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the > >>>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in > >>>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this > >>>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs > >>>> >> > members > >>>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that > >>>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us > >>>> >> > less > >>>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power > >>>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more > >>>> >> > still within our local chapters. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > wrote: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Hi Joe, > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >>>> >> > saying > >>>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt > >>>> >> > like > >>>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with > >>>> >> > all > >>>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet > >>>> >> > that > >>>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with > >>>> >> > prize > >>>> >> > drawings and the like. > >>>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it > >>>> >> > is > >>>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > >>>> >>sources. > >>>> >> > So > >>>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be > >>>> >> > a > >>>> >> > loss of programs and resources. > >>>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > >>>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >>>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >>>> >> > judgment > >>>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception > >>>> >> > only, > >>>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > >>>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find > >>>> >> > that > >>>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > >>>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am > >>>> >> > not > >>>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > >>>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not > >>>> >> > all > >>>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have > >>>> >> > a > >>>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or > >>>> >> > division > >>>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. > >>>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to > >>>> >> > in > >>>> >> > the organization. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Arielle > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > >>>> >> > wrote: > >>>> >> > Hello all. > >>>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my > >>>> >> > own > >>>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size > >>>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > >>>> >> > Thanks. > >>>> >> > Mike > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- > >>>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur > >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >>>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >>>> >> > mailing list > >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >>>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a > >>>> >>mentoor. > >>>> >> > RJ > >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> >> > From: "Joe" >>>> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>>> >> > there > >>>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be > >>>> >> > in > >>>> >> > the company > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > of > >>>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me > >>>> >> > as > >>>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer > >>>> >> > as > >>>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from > >>>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very > >>>> >> > well-suited > >>>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall > >>>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those > >>>> >> > infrequent > >>>> >>gatherings. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn > >>>> >> > it > >>>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it > >>>> >> > rather > >>>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into > >>>> >> > listen > >>>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund > >>>> >> > or > >>>> >> > that > >>>> >>effort. > >>>> >> > I > >>>> >> > found > >>>> >> > it > >>>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our > >>>> >> > monthly > >>>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus > >>>> >> > of > >>>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >>>> >> > perhaps > >>>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails > >>>> >> > from > >>>> >> > so-called friends from whom > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I > >>>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>>> >> > NFB > >>>> >> > fundraising campaigns. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>>> >> > about > >>>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>>> >> > development > >>>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also > >>>> >> > national in scope. > >>>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>>> >> > professionals. > >>>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>>> >> > ever > >>>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but > >>>> >> > they > >>>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because > >>>> >> > they > >>>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should > >>>> >> > have > >>>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the > >>>> >> > organization. I had too much of > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > a > >>>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have > >>>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who > >>>> >> > could > >>>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most > >>>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>>> >> > sustaining. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>>> >> > don't > >>>> >> > want > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > it > >>>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >>>> >> > know > >>>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on > >>>> >> > the > >>>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB > >>>> >> > banner > >>>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the > >>>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys > >>>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will > >>>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. > >>>> >> > The > >>>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>>> >> > and > >>>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to > >>>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a > >>>> >> > world > >>>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology > >>>> >> > has > >>>> >> > seen > >>>> >>to that. > >>>> >> > Whether > >>>> >> > or > >>>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >>>> >> > want > >>>> >> > it to exist. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>>> >> > what > >>>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? > >>>> >> > They > >>>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in > >>>> >> > our > >>>> >>camp. > >>>> >> > The > >>>> >> > few > >>>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be > >>>> >> > a > >>>> >> > lesson in financial management to you. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >>>> >> > only > >>>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation > >>>> >> > of > >>>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never > >>>> >> > taste > >>>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the > >>>> >> > teacher > >>>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, > >>>> >> > I > >>>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want > >>>> >> > to > >>>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest > >>>> >> > I > >>>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame > >>>> >> > attempt > >>>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>>> >> > what > >>>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Joe > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > -- > >>>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Visit my blog: > >>>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa > >>>> >> > ndefur%40gmail.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel > >>>> >> > le%40frontier.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >>>> >> > mail.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > >>>> >> > 40gmail.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso > >>>> >> > n%40visi.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >>>> >> > mail.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > >>>> >> > mail.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > >>>> >> > mail.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g > >>>> >> > mail.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine > >>>> >> > t104%40gmail.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > -- > >>>> >> > Kaiti > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 > >>>> >> > 07%40comcast.net > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz > >>>> >> > on.net > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > --- > >>>> >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! > >>>> >> > Antivirus > >>>> >> > protection is active. > >>>> >> > http://www.avast.com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> >> > for > >>>> >> > nabs-l: > >>>> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > >>>> >> > com > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > >>>> >>_______________________________________________ > >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> >>nabs-l: > >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam > 68%40gmail.com > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >>--- > >>>> >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > >>>> >>protection is active. > >>>> >>http://www.avast.com > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >>_______________________________________________ > >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list > >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> >> nabs-l: > >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih% > 40comcast.net > >>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> > nabs-l: > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Kaiti > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From hotdancer1416 at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 16:43:52 2014 From: hotdancer1416 at gmail.com (Ashlee g) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 12:43:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140404093050.020e34c0@comcast.net> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> <81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140404093050.020e34c0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3D7BBF84-AC2A-4353-9B55-B6A9056DFBB5@gmail.com> i am autistic, and have thought about giving tahlks about being blind and autistic, and how to deal with my communication needs. AUTISM IS NOT A DISEASE! I AM AN AUTISM ADVOCATE, WRITER, AND SPEAKER. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE, OR WANT ME TO COME SPEAK, CALL ME AT 711,443,682,8862 OR LEAVE ME A MEOR TEXT ME AT 410,417,6676. > On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:39, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Kaiti, > > Guess I failed to consider how supporting blind people with mental illness and as in my case, brain damage, is separate from those kind of blind people speaking for themselves. > Would be interested as to whether such a group ever gets off the ground! > for today, Car > > those who wish to support >> others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student >> divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are >> concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support >> is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which >> state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily >> in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has >> students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary, >> and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student >> at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational >> experience better for us. >> >> This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation >> as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and >> contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not >> directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because >> I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my >> line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and >> have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this >> list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though >> admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have >> identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just >> know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to >> be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have >> a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I >> definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The >> president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed >> with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must >> be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the >> division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested >> in giving support to join. >> >> Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that >> emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside >> member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the >> situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the >> members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness, >> but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with >> the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but >> since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division >> a few months ago, where several members were offended because they >> interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help >> from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be >> helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from >> having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not >> just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about. >> >> On 4/4/14, Darian wrote: >> > But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for someone who >> > cannot speak for themselves? >> > The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one can hope to be >> > in another person's best interest. >> > I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time and it will >> > not be the last time. >> > >> > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >> > >> >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of >> >> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does not make me >> >> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those >> >> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves >> >> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of people like me, >> >> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not >> >> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by >> >> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in point, a guy >> >> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the prodromal symtpoms, >> >> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer speaks, rather >> >> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't >> >> even speak for himself, much less others. >> >> Beth >> >> >> >>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >>> Good evening, Kaiti, >> >>> >> >>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called >> >>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation >> >>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of >> >>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? >> >>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> >>>> I think a good thing might look something like this: >> >>>> >> >>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some >> >>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill >> >>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going >> >>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have >> >>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a >> >>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might >> >>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little >> >>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able >> >>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >> >>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution >> >>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be >> >>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a >> >>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long >> >>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join >> >>>> and aid in the cause. >> >>>> >> >>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >>>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >> >>>> > >> >>>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle >> >>>> > illness! >> >>>> > for today, Car >> >>>> > >> >>>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >>>> >>Hi Ariel, >> >>>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. >> >>>> >> Which >> >>>> >> is >> >>>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >> >>>> >> Sam >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> >>>> >>Silverman >> >>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >> >>>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >>>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division >> >>>> >> could >> >>>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that >> >>>> >> is >> >>>> >> led >> >>>> >>by blind people with mental illness. >> >>>> >>Arielle >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >>>> >> > Hi everyone, >> >>>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >> >>>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between >> >>>> >> > support/ >> >>>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities >> >>>> >> > along >> >>>> >>with blindness. >> >>>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >> >>>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists >> >>>> >> > and >> >>>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >> >>>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >> >>>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >> >>>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >> >>>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't >> >>>> >> > allow >> >>>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >> >>>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >> >>>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it >> >>>> >> > is >> >>>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to >> >>>> >> > day >> >>>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >> >>>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. >> >>>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >> >>>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >> >>>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere >> >>>> >> > for a >> >>>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the >> >>>> >> > program >> >>>> >> > and how they do things. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Sam >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >>>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >> >>>> >> > Taurasi >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >> >>>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >> >>>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because >> >>>> >> > of >> >>>> >> > that >> >>>> >>guardianship. >> >>>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >> >>>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a >> >>>> >> > case >> >>>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it >> >>>> >> > affects >> >>>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >> >>>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep >> >>>> >> > down, >> >>>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. >> >>>> >> > But >> >>>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >> >>>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 >> >>>> >> > "unpersons" >> >>>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and >> >>>> >> > if >> >>>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >> >>>> >> > Beth >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton > >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Hello all, >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, >> >>>> >> > (we >> >>>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), >> >>>> >> > and >> >>>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >> >>>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >> >>>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >> >>>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >> >>>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >> >>>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, >> >>>> >> > then >> >>>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships >> >>>> >> > with >> >>>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >> >>>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >> >>>> >> > it >> >>>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree >> >>>> >> > described, >> >>>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >> >>>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >> >>>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion >> >>>> >> > is >> >>>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars >> >>>> >> > rather >> >>>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind >> >>>> >> > people >> >>>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >> >>>> >> > that just doesn't make sense. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >> >>>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label >> >>>> >> > myself >> >>>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature >> >>>> >> > are >> >>>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives >> >>>> >> > aren't >> >>>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is >> >>>> >> > important >> >>>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB >> >>>> >> > had >> >>>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >> >>>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in >> >>>> >> > this >> >>>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of >> >>>> >> > convention? >> >>>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >> >>>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >> >>>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >> >>>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us >> >>>> >> > are >> >>>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to >> >>>> >> > suit >> >>>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >> >>>> >> > Sorry for the rant. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >>>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will >> >>>> >> > never >> >>>> >> > happen again. >> >>>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and >> >>>> >> > then >> >>>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight >> >>>> >> > and >> >>>> >> > be the darling of >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >> >>>> >> > chapters and >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and >> >>>> >> > wondering >> >>>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >> >>>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. >> >>>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >> >>>> >> > grew up in >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >> >>>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> >>>> >> > withmultipledisabilities? >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >> >>>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I >> >>>> >> > completely >> >>>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for >> >>>> >> > every >> >>>> >>special interest. >> >>>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >> >>>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >> >>>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and >> >>>> >> > then >> >>>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We >> >>>> >> > can't >> >>>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >> >>>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the >> >>>> >> > general >> >>>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about >> >>>> >> > whether >> >>>> >>to keep having these religious invocations? >> >>>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that >> >>>> >> > reflects >> >>>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, >> >>>> >> > we >> >>>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are >> >>>> >> > formed >> >>>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >> >>>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >> >>>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the >> >>>> >> > hassle >> >>>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >> >>>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >> >>>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >>>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >> >>>> >> > But the >> >>>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is >> >>>> >> > not >> >>>> >> > occurring. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >> >>>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become >> >>>> >> > more >> >>>> >> > diverse. I also >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that >> >>>> >> > if >> >>>> >> > they have >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do >> >>>> >> > anything >> >>>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >> >>>> >> > together >> >>>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >> >>>> >> > transgendered >> >>>> >>people. >> >>>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >> >>>> >> > announcement and >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people >> >>>> >> > left >> >>>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and >> >>>> >> > that >> >>>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >> >>>> >> > social >> >>>> >> > purposes. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many >> >>>> >> > more >> >>>> >> > changes >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and >> >>>> >> > see >> >>>> >> > what happens. >> >>>> >> > Have a blessed day. >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> >>>> >> > multipledisabilities? >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Hi all, >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >> >>>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >> >>>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >> >>>> >> > of >> >>>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >> >>>> >> > and >> >>>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> >>>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >> >>>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >> >>>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that >> >>>> >> > people >> >>>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >> >>>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> >>>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >> >>>> >> > when >> >>>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >> >>>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >> >>>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be >> >>>> >> > highly >> >>>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort >> >>>> >> > from >> >>>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> >>>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can >> >>>> >> > feel >> >>>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >> >>>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >> >>>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >> >>>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >> >>>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >> >>>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> >>>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > help >> >>>> >>them with. >> >>>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >> >>>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more >> >>>> >> > divisions >> >>>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is >> >>>> >> > a >> >>>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about >> >>>> >> > its >> >>>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >> >>>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >> >>>> >> > wheelchair >> >>>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >> >>>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >> >>>> >> > I >> >>>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >> >>>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there >> >>>> >> > are >> >>>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions >> >>>> >> > don't >> >>>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there >> >>>> >> > just >> >>>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I >> >>>> >> > think >> >>>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> >>>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, >> >>>> >> > and >> >>>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education >> >>>> >> > about >> >>>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a >> >>>> >> > whole >> >>>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would >> >>>> >> > be >> >>>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >> >>>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is >> >>>> >> > something >> >>>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >> >>>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> >>>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >> >>>> >> > going >> >>>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Best, >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> >>>> >> > Joe and others, >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >> >>>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and >> >>>> >> > we >> >>>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one >> >>>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong >> >>>> >> > as >> >>>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >> >>>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than >> >>>> >> > we >> >>>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >> >>>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at >> >>>> >> > our >> >>>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes >> >>>> >> > as >> >>>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes >> >>>> >> > are >> >>>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree >> >>>> >> > with >> >>>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >> >>>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >> >>>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >> >>>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There >> >>>> >> > is >> >>>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will >> >>>> >> > force >> >>>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this >> >>>> >> > is >> >>>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> >>>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. >> >>>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >> >>>> >> > information >> >>>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do >> >>>> >> > that >> >>>> >> > at some point. >> >>>> >> > However, I >> >>>> >> > got >> >>>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >> >>>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting >> >>>> >> > information >> >>>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >> >>>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >> >>>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a >> >>>> >> > KNFB >> >>>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >> >>>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >> >>>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our >> >>>> >> > efforts. >> >>>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >> >>>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >> >>>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of >> >>>> >> > this >> >>>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all >> >>>> >> > this. >> >>>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. >> >>>> >> > We >> >>>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >> >>>> >> > difference. >> >>>> >> > Frankly, >> >>>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't >> >>>> >> > work >> >>>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you >> >>>> >> > can >> >>>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand >> >>>> >> > kids >> >>>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the >> >>>> >> > KNFB >> >>>> >>reader? >> >>>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see >> >>>> >> > a >> >>>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret >> >>>> >> > software >> >>>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > educate every person who writes >> >>>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a >> >>>> >> > way >> >>>> >> > for us >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars >> >>>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that >> >>>> >> > at >> >>>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't >> >>>> >> > really >> >>>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >> >>>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect >> >>>> >> > on >> >>>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for >> >>>> >> > that. >> >>>> >> > But it also means that we change. >> >>>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >> >>>> >> > change. >> >>>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges >> >>>> >> > of >> >>>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >> >>>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and >> >>>> >> > as >> >>>> >> > an organization. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >> >>>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing >> >>>> >> > does >> >>>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >> >>>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >> >>>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >> >>>> >> > a >> >>>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >> >>>> >> > Incorporated >> >>>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >> >>>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to >> >>>> >> > have >> >>>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one >> >>>> >> > tool. >> >>>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >> >>>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> >>>> >> > Legislating >> >>>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot >> >>>> >> > discriminate >> >>>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't >> >>>> >> > matter >> >>>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training >> >>>> >> > won't >> >>>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >> >>>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that >> >>>> >> > problem >> >>>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't >> >>>> >> > pick >> >>>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, >> >>>> >> > and >> >>>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to >> >>>> >> > impact >> >>>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >> >>>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where >> >>>> >> > we >> >>>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what >> >>>> >> > can >> >>>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we >> >>>> >> > need >> >>>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >> >>>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >> >>>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >> >>>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set >> >>>> >> > us >> >>>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching >> >>>> >> > out >> >>>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Best regards, >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Steve Jacobson >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Arielle, >> >>>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Joe, >> >>>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >> >>>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >> >>>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >> >>>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> >>>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs >> >>>> >> > members >> >>>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >> >>>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us >> >>>> >> > less >> >>>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >> >>>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >> >>>> >> > still within our local chapters. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > wrote: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Hi Joe, >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >> >>>> >> > saying >> >>>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt >> >>>> >> > like >> >>>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with >> >>>> >> > all >> >>>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet >> >>>> >> > that >> >>>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with >> >>>> >> > prize >> >>>> >> > drawings and the like. >> >>>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it >> >>>> >> > is >> >>>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> >>>> >>sources. >> >>>> >> > So >> >>>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be >> >>>> >> > a >> >>>> >> > loss of programs and resources. >> >>>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> >>>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> >>>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >> >>>> >> > judgment >> >>>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception >> >>>> >> > only, >> >>>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> >>>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >> >>>> >> > that >> >>>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> >>>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am >> >>>> >> > not >> >>>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> >>>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >> >>>> >> > all >> >>>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have >> >>>> >> > a >> >>>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or >> >>>> >> > division >> >>>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >> >>>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to >> >>>> >> > in >> >>>> >> > the organization. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >> >>>> >> > wrote: >> >>>> >> > Hello all. >> >>>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >> >>>> >> > own >> >>>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >> >>>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> >>>> >> > Thanks. >> >>>> >> > Mike >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >>>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> >>>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >> >>>> >> > mailing list >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >> >>>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >> >>>> >>mentoor. >> >>>> >> > RJ >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >>>> >> > From: "Joe" > >>>> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >> >>>> >> > there >> >>>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be >> >>>> >> > in >> >>>> >> > the company >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > of >> >>>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >> >>>> >> > as >> >>>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer >> >>>> >> > as >> >>>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >> >>>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very >> >>>> >> > well-suited >> >>>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >> >>>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those >> >>>> >> > infrequent >> >>>> >>gatherings. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> >>>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >> >>>> >> > it >> >>>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >> >>>> >> > rather >> >>>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into >> >>>> >> > listen >> >>>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund >> >>>> >> > or >> >>>> >> > that >> >>>> >>effort. >> >>>> >> > I >> >>>> >> > found >> >>>> >> > it >> >>>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >> >>>> >> > monthly >> >>>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus >> >>>> >> > of >> >>>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >> >>>> >> > perhaps >> >>>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails >> >>>> >> > from >> >>>> >> > so-called friends from whom >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I >> >>>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >>>> >> > fundraising campaigns. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >> >>>> >> > about >> >>>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >> >>>> >> > development >> >>>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >> >>>> >> > national in scope. >> >>>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >> >>>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >> >>>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >> >>>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> >>>> >> > professionals. >> >>>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >> >>>> >> > ever >> >>>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but >> >>>> >> > they >> >>>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because >> >>>> >> > they >> >>>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should >> >>>> >> > have >> >>>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >> >>>> >> > organization. I had too much of >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > a >> >>>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >> >>>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >> >>>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >> >>>> >> > could >> >>>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >> >>>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some >> >>>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >> >>>> >> > sustaining. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >> >>>> >> > don't >> >>>> >> > want >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > it >> >>>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >> >>>> >> > know >> >>>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >> >>>> >> > the >> >>>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >> >>>> >> > banner >> >>>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >> >>>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >> >>>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >> >>>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. >> >>>> >> > The >> >>>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >> >>>> >> > and >> >>>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >> >>>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >> >>>> >> > world >> >>>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology >> >>>> >> > has >> >>>> >> > seen >> >>>> >>to that. >> >>>> >> > Whether >> >>>> >> > or >> >>>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >> >>>> >> > want >> >>>> >> > it to exist. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >> >>>> >> > what >> >>>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? >> >>>> >> > They >> >>>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in >> >>>> >> > our >> >>>> >>camp. >> >>>> >> > The >> >>>> >> > few >> >>>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be >> >>>> >> > a >> >>>> >> > lesson in financial management to you. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >> >>>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >> >>>> >> > only >> >>>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >> >>>> >> > of >> >>>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >> >>>> >> > taste >> >>>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the >> >>>> >> > teacher >> >>>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, >> >>>> >> > I >> >>>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want >> >>>> >> > to >> >>>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >> >>>> >> > I >> >>>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >> >>>> >> > attempt >> >>>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >> >>>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >> >>>> >> > what >> >>>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Joe >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > -- >> >>>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Visit my blog: >> >>>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >> >>>> >> > ndefur%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >> >>>> >> > le%40frontier.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> >>>> >> > mail.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >> >>>> >> > 40gmail.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >> >>>> >> > n%40visi.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> >>>> >> > mail.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> >>>> >> > mail.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> >>>> >> > mail.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >>>> >> > for >> >>>> >> > nabs-l: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >> >>>> >> > mail.com >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > 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>>_______________________________________________ >> >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> >>nabs-l: >> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam 68%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >>--- >> >>>> >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> >>>> >>protection is active. >> >>>> >>http://www.avast.com >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> >> nabs-l: >> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih% 40comcast.net >> >>>> >> >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> > nabs-l: >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Kaiti >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Apr 4 18:08:52 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:08:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health and multiple disabilities group off the ground In-Reply-To: References: <533ED098.8010709@comcast.net> Message-ID: <533EF534.3080400@comcast.net> That's ok, RJ. WE might need an email list for that, so we don't always need a conference call? Thanks. Beth On 4/4/2014 9:39 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I'm interested Beth, but i can't do conference calls. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth Taurasi" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Strongly interested in getting a mental health > and multiple disabilities group off the ground > > >> I've got to do this with you too, Anjelina. Let's do a conference >> call and I'll talk a bit about some ideas with you all. Those of us >> interested should contact me at eataurasi at gmail.com Also, my phone >> number I'll give to you guys. Thanks. We'll do a conference call >> soon, and I have a room set up for that purpose. Thanks. >> Beth >> >> On 4/4/2014 7:51 AM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>> Morning all, let's be proactive! I have read so many great messages >>> and wonderful ideas related to the topic of mental health. Let's get >>> this started! >>> Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can all meet? Would a >>> conference call help so we can brainstorm some ideas? I would >>> encourage someone who has started to get a division going to help us >>> out. I really hope we can get this going. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Apr 4 18:11:46 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:11:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> <81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <533EF5E2.7050709@comcast.net> I think we could work it one of two ways: thte majority could be blind folks with the diagnosed mental illnesses and those who work with them, so we can have more spots open and more people to elect as leaders and nobody gets excluded. We also need to understand that those with other chronic disabilities not included in the NFB could also be served by this, after all mental health goes hand in hand with other disabilities. Beth On 4/4/2014 9:45 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Carly et al, > > Perhaps Darian explained what I meant before I had a chance to see > your message, but I'm a little puzzled by your confusion. I was > merely suggesting that this group include those who wish to support > others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student > divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are > concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support > is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which > state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily > in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has > students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary, > and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student > at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational > experience better for us. > > This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation > as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and > contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not > directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because > I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my > line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and > have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this > list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though > admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have > identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just > know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to > be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have > a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I > definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The > president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed > with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must > be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the > division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested > in giving support to join. > > Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that > emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside > member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the > situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the > members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness, > but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with > the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but > since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division > a few months ago, where several members were offended because they > interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help > from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be > helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from > having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not > just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about. > > On 4/4/14, Darian wrote: >> But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for someone who >> cannot speak for themselves? >> The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one can hope to be >> in another person's best interest. >> I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time and it will >> not be the last time. >> >> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >> >>> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi >>> wrote: >>> >>> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of >>> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does not make me >>> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those >>> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves >>> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of people like me, >>> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not >>> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by >>> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in point, a guy >>> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the prodromal symtpoms, >>> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer speaks, rather >>> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't >>> even speak for himself, much less others. >>> Beth >>> >>>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>> Good evening, Kaiti, >>>> >>>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called >>>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation >>>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of >>>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? >>>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>> I think a good thing might look something like this: >>>>> >>>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some >>>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill >>>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going >>>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have >>>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a >>>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might >>>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little >>>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able >>>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >>>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution >>>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be >>>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a >>>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long >>>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join >>>>> and aid in the cause. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>> Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle >>>>>> illness! >>>>>> for today, Car >>>>>> >>>>>> At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Ariel, >>>>>>> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. >>>>>>> Which >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >>>>>>> Sam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>>>>> Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> led >>>>>>> by blind people with mental illness. >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>> I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred >>>>>>>> percent agree that there needs to be more connection between >>>>>>>> support/ >>>>>>>> services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities >>>>>>>> along >>>>>>> with blindness. >>>>>>>> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental >>>>>>>> illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how >>>>>>>> mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of >>>>>>>> misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how >>>>>>>> mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a >>>>>>>> standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't >>>>>>>> allow >>>>>>>> for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >>>>>>>> I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called >>>>>>>> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> a very close knit community and we all support each other day to >>>>>>>> day >>>>>>>> with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if >>>>>>>> possible and most of all just our friendship. >>>>>>>> Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric >>>>>>>> clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know >>>>>>>> anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere >>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>> contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the >>>>>>>> program >>>>>>>> and how they do things. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sam >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>>>>>> Taurasi >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing >>>>>>>> Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because >>>>>>>> they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> guardianship. >>>>>>>> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they >>>>>>>> will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a >>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>> against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it >>>>>>>> affects >>>>>>>> lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship >>>>>>>> with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep >>>>>>>> down, >>>>>>>> I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. >>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>> alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such >>>>>>>> persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 >>>>>>>> "unpersons" >>>>>>>> is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >>>>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, >>>>>>>> (we >>>>>>>> may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities >>>>>>>> without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the >>>>>>>> starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a >>>>>>>> huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for >>>>>>>> working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the >>>>>>>> same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> that group. Once repore is established, people from the various >>>>>>>> organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree >>>>>>>> described, >>>>>>>> but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as >>>>>>>> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss >>>>>>>> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>> than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me, >>>>>>>> that just doesn't make sense. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as >>>>>>>> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label >>>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>> at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives >>>>>>>> aren't >>>>>>>> always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is >>>>>>>> important >>>>>>>> that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what >>>>>>>> Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of >>>>>>>> convention? >>>>>>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I >>>>>>>> would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double >>>>>>>> minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the >>>>>>>> greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to >>>>>>>> suit >>>>>>>> their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >>>>>>>> Sorry for the rant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>>>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> happen again. >>>>>>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> be the darling of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with >>>>>>>> chapters and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and >>>>>>>> wondering >>>>>>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give >>>>>>>> examples of backing the wrong person. >>>>>>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and >>>>>>>> grew up in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the >>>>>>>> darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >>>>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >>>>>>>> withmultipledisabilities? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something >>>>>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I >>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for >>>>>>>> every >>>>>>> special interest. >>>>>>>> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what >>>>>>>> should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >>>>>>>> division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We >>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>> try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >>>>>>>> controversial and then have religious invocations at all the >>>>>>>> general >>>>>>>> sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about >>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>> to keep having these religious invocations? >>>>>>>> In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that >>>>>>>> reflects >>>>>>>> the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are >>>>>>>> formed >>>>>>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify >>>>>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run >>>>>>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the >>>>>>>> hassle >>>>>>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the >>>>>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a >>>>>>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>>>>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. >>>>>>>> But the >>>>>>>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> occurring. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a >>>>>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> diverse. I also >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> they have >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do >>>>>>>> anything >>>>>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came >>>>>>>> together >>>>>>>> and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >>>>>>>> transgendered >>>>>>> people. >>>>>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >>>>>>>> announcement and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people >>>>>>>> left >>>>>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for >>>>>>>> social >>>>>>>> purposes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> changes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and >>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>> what happens. >>>>>>>> Have a blessed day. >>>>>>>> Best Wishes >>>>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >>>>>>>> multipledisabilities? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue >>>>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks >>>>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional >>>>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is >>>>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB >>>>>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an >>>>>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >>>>>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and >>>>>>>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in >>>>>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be >>>>>>>> highly >>>>>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >>>>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can >>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down >>>>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental >>>>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and >>>>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. >>>>>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple >>>>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >>>>>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> help >>>>>>> them with. >>>>>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just >>>>>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more >>>>>>>> divisions >>>>>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about >>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a >>>>>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >>>>>>>> wheelchair >>>>>>>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each >>>>>>>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health >>>>>>>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional >>>>>>>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a >>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with >>>>>>>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in >>>>>>>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the >>>>>>>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are >>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >>>>>>>> Joe and others, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is >>>>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one >>>>>>>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an >>>>>>>> expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >>>>>>>> supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made >>>>>>>> contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >>>>>>>> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by >>>>>>>> legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will >>>>>>>> force >>>>>>>> software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >>>>>>>> particularly on the job, all by itself. >>>>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> at some point. >>>>>>>> However, I >>>>>>>> got >>>>>>>> very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the >>>>>>>> problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting >>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>> that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our >>>>>>>> budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something >>>>>>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a >>>>>>>> KNFB >>>>>>>> reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention >>>>>>>> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have >>>>>>>> attended science camps of one kind or another through our >>>>>>>> efforts. >>>>>>>> We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >>>>>>>> lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We >>>>>>>> couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all >>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a >>>>>>>> difference. >>>>>>>> Frankly, >>>>>>>> I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand >>>>>>>> kids >>>>>>>> get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the >>>>>>>> KNFB >>>>>>> reader? >>>>>>>> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret >>>>>>>> software >>>>>>>> on a computer screen instead of having >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> educate every person who writes >>>>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> for us >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars >>>>>>>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots >>>>>>>> organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for >>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>> But it also means that we change. >>>>>>>> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >>>>>>>> change. >>>>>>>> Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, >>>>>>>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> an organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our >>>>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing >>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions >>>>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and >>>>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >>>>>>>> Incorporated >>>>>>>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the >>>>>>>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one >>>>>>>> tool. >>>>>>>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training. >>>>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>>>>> Legislating >>>>>>>> that software must be accessible and that one cannot >>>>>>>> discriminate >>>>>>>> based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't >>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>> much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training >>>>>>>> won't >>>>>>>> matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. >>>>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that >>>>>>>> problem >>>>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't >>>>>>>> pick >>>>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to >>>>>>>> impact >>>>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. >>>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. >>>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of >>>>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set >>>>>>>> us >>>>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching >>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >>>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >>>>>>>> organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >>>>>>>> high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >>>>>>>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs >>>>>>>> members >>>>>>>> who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that >>>>>>>> isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us >>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>> willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power >>>>>>>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more >>>>>>>> still within our local chapters. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with >>>>>>>> prize >>>>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>>> sources. >>>>>>>> So >>>>>>>> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>> judgment >>>>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception >>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or >>>>>>>> division >>>>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >>>>>>>> But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>>>>> mentoor. >>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the company >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >>>>>>>> attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very >>>>>>>> well-suited >>>>>>>> to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall >>>>>>>> through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those >>>>>>>> infrequent >>>>>>> gatherings. >>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>> disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into >>>>>>>> listen >>>>>>>> to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> effort. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >>>>>>>> monthly >>>>>>>> dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >>>>>>>> perhaps >>>>>>>> the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>> development >>>>>>>> efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >>>>>>>> national in scope. >>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>> ever >>>>>>>> will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> shun the organization because they were turned away or because >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the >>>>>>>> organization. I had too much of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>> have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most >>>>>>>> important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>>>>>> banner >>>>>>>> will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the >>>>>>>> organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>>>>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>>>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >>>>>>>> reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>>>>> world >>>>>>>> where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>> seen >>>>>>> to that. >>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> it to exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? >>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>> seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>> camp. >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> lesson in financial management to you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >>>>>>>> taste >>>>>>>> the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the >>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>>> who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>>>>> attempt >>>>>>>> to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso >>>>>>>> n%40visi.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g >>>>>>>> mail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine >>>>>>>> t104%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11 >>>>>>>> 07%40comcast.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz >>>>>>>> on.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >>>>>>>> Antivirus >>>>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Apr 4 18:15:01 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:15:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Thunderbird question Message-ID: <533EF6A5.2020003@comcast.net> Hi, all. I have a Thunderbird question. How do you guys use Thunderbird's Address book to send to multiple email addresses? I'd be doing this before the mental health and other disabilities listserv comes up on the NFB, but I'd like to control, for now, how many people get said emails from me. I'm kind of new to Thunderbird, so help me out here. Beth From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Apr 4 21:48:37 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 14:48:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <3D7BBF84-AC2A-4353-9B55-B6A9056DFBB5@gmail.com> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> <81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140404093050.020e34c0@comcast.net> <3D7BBF84-AC2A-4353-9B55-B6A9056DFBB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140404144732.01f38840@comcast.net> Hi, Ashley, Might you simply call me in Berkeley, California at 408-209-3239? Your number is too complicated! for today, CarAt 09:43 AM 4/4/2014, you wrote: >i am autistic, and have thought about giving tahlks about being >blind and autistic, and how to deal with my communication needs. > >AUTISM IS NOT A DISEASE! I AM AN AUTISM ADVOCATE, WRITER, AND >SPEAKER. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE, OR WANT ME TO COME SPEAK, >CALL ME AT 711,443,682,8862 OR LEAVE ME A MEOR TEXT ME AT 410,417,6676. > > > On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:39, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > > Good morning, Kaiti, > > > > Guess I failed to consider how supporting blind people with > mental illness and as in my case, brain damage, is separate from > those kind of blind people speaking for themselves. > > Would be interested as to whether such a group ever gets off the ground! > > for today, Car > > > > those who wish to support > >> others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student > >> divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are > >> concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support > >> is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which > >> state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily > >> in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has > >> students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary, > >> and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student > >> at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational > >> experience better for us. > >> > >> This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation > >> as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and > >> contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not > >> directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because > >> I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my > >> line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and > >> have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this > >> list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though > >> admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have > >> identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just > >> know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to > >> be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have > >> a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I > >> definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The > >> president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed > >> with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must > >> be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the > >> division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested > >> in giving support to join. > >> > >> Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that > >> emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside > >> member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the > >> situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the > >> members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness, > >> but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with > >> the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but > >> since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division > >> a few months ago, where several members were offended because they > >> interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help > >> from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be > >> helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from > >> having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not > >> just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about. > >> > >> On 4/4/14, Darian wrote: > >> > But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for > someone who > >> > cannot speak for themselves? > >> > The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one > can hope to be > >> > in another person's best interest. > >> > I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time > and it will > >> > not be the last time. > >> > > >> > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> > > >> >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of > >> >> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does > not make me > >> >> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those > >> >> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves > >> >> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of > people like me, > >> >> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not > >> >> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by > >> >> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in > point, a guy > >> >> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the > prodromal symtpoms, > >> >> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer > speaks, rather > >> >> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't > >> >> even speak for himself, much less others. > >> >> Beth > >> >> > >> >>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> >>> Good evening, Kaiti, > >> >>> > >> >>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called > >> >>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation > >> >>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of > >> >>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? > >> >>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >> >>>> I think a good thing might look something like this: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some > >> >>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill > >> >>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, > I am going > >> >>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with > clients who have > >> >>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a > >> >>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might > >> >>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little > >> >>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able > >> >>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as > >> >>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution > >> >>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be > >> >>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a > >> >>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long > >> >>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are > free to join > >> >>>> and aid in the cause. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> >>>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle > >> >>>> > illness! > >> >>>> > for today, Car > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: > >> >>>> >>Hi Ariel, > >> >>>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. > >> >>>> >> Which > >> >>>> >> is > >> >>>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. > >> >>>> >> Sam > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >>-----Original Message----- > >> >>>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Arielle > >> >>>> >>Silverman > >> >>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM > >> >>>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >> >>>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human > services division > >> >>>> >> could > >> >>>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or > division that > >> >>>> >> is > >> >>>> >> led > >> >>>> >>by blind people with mental illness. > >> >>>> >>Arielle > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: > >> >>>> >> > Hi everyone, > >> >>>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred > >> >>>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between > >> >>>> >> > support/ > >> >>>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other > disabilities > >> >>>> >> > along > >> >>>> >>with blindness. > >> >>>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental > >> >>>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists > >> >>>> >> > and > >> >>>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental > illnessor how > >> >>>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of > >> >>>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not > understanding how > >> >>>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's > own getting a > >> >>>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't > >> >>>> >> > allow > >> >>>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. > >> >>>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called > >> >>>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it > since May and it > >> >>>> >> > is > >> >>>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each > other day to > >> >>>> >> > day > >> >>>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if > >> >>>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. > >> >>>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only > psychiatric > >> >>>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. > Does anyone know > >> >>>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere > >> >>>> >> > for a > >> >>>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the > >> >>>> >> > program > >> >>>> >> > and how they do things. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sam > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >>>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Beth > >> >>>> >> > Taurasi > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM > >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing > >> >>>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get > guardianship because > >> >>>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated > suicide because > >> >>>> >> > of > >> >>>> >> > that > >> >>>> >>guardianship. > >> >>>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off > MySpace, but they > >> >>>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a > >> >>>> >> > case > >> >>>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it > >> >>>> >> > affects > >> >>>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my > relationship > >> >>>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep > >> >>>> >> > down, > >> >>>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. > >> >>>> >> > But > >> >>>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To > say that such > >> >>>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 > >> >>>> >> > "unpersons" > >> >>>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be > complicated, and > >> >>>> >> > if > >> >>>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. > >> >>>> >> > Beth > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Hello all, > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections > between the blind, > >> >>>> >> > (we > >> >>>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this > conversation), > >> >>>> >> > and > >> >>>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other > disabilities > >> >>>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the > >> >>>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like > the NFB is a > >> >>>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for > >> >>>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other > groups are the > >> >>>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, > >> >>>> >> > then > >> >>>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships > >> >>>> >> > with > >> >>>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various > >> >>>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might > have phrased > >> >>>> >> > it > >> >>>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree > >> >>>> >> > described, > >> >>>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. > Especially since, as > >> >>>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together > and discuss > >> >>>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their > discussion > >> >>>> >> > is > >> >>>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars > >> >>>> >> > rather > >> >>>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind > >> >>>> >> > people > >> >>>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not > okay? To me, > >> >>>> >> > that just doesn't make sense. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would > label myself as > >> >>>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label > >> >>>> >> > myself > >> >>>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature > >> >>>> >> > are > >> >>>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives > >> >>>> >> > aren't > >> >>>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is > >> >>>> >> > important > >> >>>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB > >> >>>> >> > had > >> >>>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what > >> >>>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in > >> >>>> >> > this > >> >>>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of > >> >>>> >> > convention? > >> >>>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or > anything else? I > >> >>>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double > >> >>>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the > >> >>>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are > different from us > >> >>>> >> > are > >> >>>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to > >> >>>> >> > suit > >> >>>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. > >> >>>> >> > Sorry for the rant. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> >>>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will > >> >>>> >> > never > >> >>>> >> > happen again. > >> >>>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and > >> >>>> >> > then > >> >>>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it > going. IMO > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight > >> >>>> >> > and > >> >>>> >> > be the darling of > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with > >> >>>> >> > chapters and > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and > >> >>>> >> > wondering > >> >>>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give > >> >>>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. > >> >>>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who > were born and > >> >>>> >> > grew up in > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the > >> >>>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. > >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes > >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM > >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people > >> >>>> >> > withmultipledisabilities? > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, > especially > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to > see something > >> >>>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I > >> >>>> >> > completely > >> >>>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for > >> >>>> >> > every > >> >>>> >>special interest. > >> >>>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what > >> >>>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a > >> >>>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and > >> >>>> >> > then > >> >>>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We > >> >>>> >> > can't > >> >>>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically > >> >>>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the > >> >>>> >> > general > >> >>>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been > polled about > >> >>>> >> > whether > >> >>>> >>to keep having these religious invocations? > >> >>>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that > >> >>>> >> > reflects > >> >>>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political > views alone, > >> >>>> >> > we > >> >>>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are > >> >>>> >> > formed > >> >>>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful > enough to justify > >> >>>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed > out, a well-run > >> >>>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the > >> >>>> >> > hassle > >> >>>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least > some of the > >> >>>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy > with just a > >> >>>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Arielle > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: > >> >>>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. > >> >>>> >> > But the > >> >>>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. > However this is > >> >>>> >> > not > >> >>>> >> > occurring. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of > blindness. Yet, we are a > >> >>>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become > >> >>>> >> > more > >> >>>> >> > diverse. I also > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that > >> >>>> >> > if > >> >>>> >> > they have > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do > >> >>>> >> > anything > >> >>>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came > >> >>>> >> > together > >> >>>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and > >> >>>> >> > transgendered > >> >>>> >>people. > >> >>>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the > >> >>>> >> > announcement and > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people > >> >>>> >> > left > >> >>>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and > >> >>>> >> > that > >> >>>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for > >> >>>> >> > social > >> >>>> >> > purposes. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many > >> >>>> >> > more > >> >>>> >> > changes > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going > to wait and > >> >>>> >> > see > >> >>>> >> > what happens. > >> >>>> >> > Have a blessed day. > >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes > >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" >> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM > >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with > >> >>>> >> > multipledisabilities? > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Hi all, > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an > important issue > >> >>>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more > blind folks > >> >>>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several > reasons, the number > >> >>>> >> > of > >> >>>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, > >> >>>> >> > and > >> >>>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > >> >>>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in > advocacy is > >> >>>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > >> >>>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that > >> >>>> >> > people > >> >>>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > >> >>>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > >> >>>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's > particularly true > >> >>>> >> > when > >> >>>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual > disabilities and > >> >>>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > >> >>>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be > >> >>>> >> > highly > >> >>>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort > >> >>>> >> > from > >> >>>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > >> >>>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can > >> >>>> >> > feel > >> >>>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble > holding down > >> >>>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and > downs of mental > >> >>>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly > creative and > >> >>>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are > getting lost. > >> >>>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people > with multiple > >> >>>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > >> >>>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > help > >> >>>> >>them with. > >> >>>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > >> >>>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more > >> >>>> >> > divisions > >> >>>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other > conditions. There is > >> >>>> >> > a > >> >>>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great > things about > >> >>>> >> > its > >> >>>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > >> >>>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind > >> >>>> >> > wheelchair > >> >>>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to > discuss with each > >> >>>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. > >> >>>> >> > I > >> >>>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with > mental health > >> >>>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there > >> >>>> >> > are > >> >>>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions > >> >>>> >> > don't > >> >>>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there > >> >>>> >> > just > >> >>>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I > >> >>>> >> > think > >> >>>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > >> >>>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the > organization, > >> >>>> >> > and > >> >>>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education > >> >>>> >> > about > >> >>>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a > >> >>>> >> > whole > >> >>>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would > >> >>>> >> > be > >> >>>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > >> >>>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is > >> >>>> >> > something > >> >>>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership > positions in > >> >>>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > >> >>>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are > >> >>>> >> > going > >> >>>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Best, > >> >>>> >> > Arielle > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >> >>>> >> > Joe and others, > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is > >> >>>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human > beings and > >> >>>> >> > we > >> >>>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one > >> >>>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of > right or wrong > >> >>>> >> > as > >> >>>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while > back now on an > >> >>>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise > more funds than > >> >>>> >> > we > >> >>>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB > >> >>>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When > you look at > >> >>>> >> > our > >> >>>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare > legislative successes > >> >>>> >> > as > >> >>>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that > legislative successes > >> >>>> >> > are > >> >>>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree > >> >>>> >> > with > >> >>>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the > ACB has made > >> >>>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > >> >>>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by > >> >>>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for > example. There > >> >>>> >> > is > >> >>>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will > >> >>>> >> > force > >> >>>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to > believe this > >> >>>> >> > is > >> >>>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > >> >>>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. > >> >>>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to > understand > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting > >> >>>> >> > information > >> >>>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do > >> >>>> >> > that > >> >>>> >> > at some point. > >> >>>> >> > However, I > >> >>>> >> > got > >> >>>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the > >> >>>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting > >> >>>> >> > information > >> >>>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant > portion of our > >> >>>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it > was something > >> >>>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when > I held up a > >> >>>> >> > KNFB > >> >>>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a > national convention > >> >>>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have > it start to read > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand > kids who have > >> >>>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our > >> >>>> >> > efforts. > >> >>>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind > >> >>>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the > technology field. We > >> >>>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of > >> >>>> >> > this > >> >>>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all > >> >>>> >> > this. > >> >>>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. > >> >>>> >> > We > >> >>>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a > >> >>>> >> > difference. > >> >>>> >> > Frankly, > >> >>>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from > what doesn't > >> >>>> >> > work > >> >>>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make > a mistake you > >> >>>> >> > can > >> >>>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand > >> >>>> >> > kids > >> >>>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we > did with the > >> >>>> >> > KNFB > >> >>>> >>reader? > >> >>>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might > we ever see > >> >>>> >> > a > >> >>>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret > >> >>>> >> > software > >> >>>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > educate every person who writes > >> >>>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a > >> >>>> >> > way > >> >>>> >> > for us > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars > >> >>>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that > >> >>>> >> > at > >> >>>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't > >> >>>> >> > really > >> >>>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots > >> >>>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have > had any affect > >> >>>> >> > on > >> >>>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for > >> >>>> >> > that. > >> >>>> >> > But it also means that we change. > >> >>>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to > >> >>>> >> > change. > >> >>>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges > >> >>>> >> > of > >> >>>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, > >> >>>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as > individuals and > >> >>>> >> > as > >> >>>> >> > an organization. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our > >> >>>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing > >> >>>> >> > does > >> >>>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to > draw conclusions > >> >>>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and > >> >>>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking > employment as > >> >>>> >> > a > >> >>>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND > >> >>>> >> > Incorporated > >> >>>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other > centers. Some of the > >> >>>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to > >> >>>> >> > have > >> >>>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one > >> >>>> >> > tool. > >> >>>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training. > >> >>>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. > >> >>>> >> > Legislating > >> >>>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot > >> >>>> >> > discriminate > >> >>>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't > >> >>>> >> > matter > >> >>>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training > >> >>>> >> > won't > >> >>>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. > >> >>>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that > >> >>>> >> > problem > >> >>>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't > >> >>>> >> > pick > >> >>>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success > by itself, > >> >>>> >> > and > >> >>>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing > on its own. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to > >> >>>> >> > impact > >> >>>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget > than we were. > >> >>>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where > >> >>>> >> > we > >> >>>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what > >> >>>> >> > can > >> >>>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we > >> >>>> >> > need > >> >>>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see > >> >>>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of > this organization. > >> >>>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our > understanding of > >> >>>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is > what has set > >> >>>> >> > us > >> >>>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching > >> >>>> >> > out > >> >>>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Best regards, > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Steve Jacobson > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Arielle, > >> >>>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Joe, > >> >>>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations > >> >>>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while > I deeply respect > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the > raw potential the > >> >>>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined > with back in > >> >>>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this > >> >>>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs > >> >>>> >> > members > >> >>>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and > who are willing > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a > no-nonsense way that > >> >>>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when > those of us > >> >>>> >> > less > >> >>>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with > political power > >> >>>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national > level, and more > >> >>>> >> > still within our local chapters. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > wrote: > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Hi Joe, > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > >> >>>> >> > saying > >> >>>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt > >> >>>> >> > like > >> >>>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with > >> >>>> >> > all > >> >>>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet > >> >>>> >> > that > >> >>>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with > >> >>>> >> > prize > >> >>>> >> > drawings and the like. > >> >>>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it > >> >>>> >> > is > >> >>>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have > been cut due > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady > reliable income > >> >>>> >>sources. > >> >>>> >> > So > >> >>>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > alternative could be > >> >>>> >> > a > >> >>>> >> > loss of programs and resources. > >> >>>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned > away or refused > >> >>>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > >> >>>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective > members choose not > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > >> >>>> >> > judgment > >> >>>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception > >> >>>> >> > only, > >> >>>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > >> >>>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > expecting to find > >> >>>> >> > that > >> >>>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. > However, there > >> >>>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain > segments of > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am > >> >>>> >> > not > >> >>>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively > unskilled when I > >> >>>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. > But I know not > >> >>>> >> > all > >> >>>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective > members who have > >> >>>> >> > a > >> >>>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or > >> >>>> >> > division > >> >>>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. > >> >>>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be > sensitive to > >> >>>> >> > in > >> >>>> >> > the organization. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Arielle > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle > >> >>>> >> > wrote: > >> >>>> >> > Hello all. > >> >>>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my > >> >>>> >> > own > >> >>>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe > in a one size > >> >>>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > >> >>>> >> > Thanks. > >> >>>> >> > Mike > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >>>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >> >>>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >> >>>> >> > mailing list > >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, > and Seminary > >> >>>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been > nice to have a > >> >>>> >>mentoor. > >> >>>> >> > RJ > >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>> >> > From: "Joe" >> >>>> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >> >>>> >> > there > >> >>>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt > glad to be > >> >>>> >> > in > >> >>>> >> > the company > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > of > >> >>>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges > that awaited me > >> >>>> >> > as > >> >>>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished > up my summer > >> >>>> >> > as > >> >>>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > business with > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from > >> >>>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very > >> >>>> >> > well-suited > >> >>>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall > >> >>>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those > >> >>>> >> > infrequent > >> >>>> >>gatherings. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >> >>>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, > and in turn > >> >>>> >> > it > >> >>>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it > >> >>>> >> > rather > >> >>>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into > >> >>>> >> > listen > >> >>>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money > for this fund > >> >>>> >> > or > >> >>>> >> > that > >> >>>> >>effort. > >> >>>> >> > I > >> >>>> >> > found > >> >>>> >> > it > >> >>>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our > >> >>>> >> > monthly > >> >>>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just > to the focus > >> >>>> >> > of > >> >>>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but > >> >>>> >> > perhaps > >> >>>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails > >> >>>> >> > from > >> >>>> >> > so-called friends from whom > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > I > >> >>>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to > contribute to their > >> >>>> >> > NFB > >> >>>> >> > fundraising campaigns. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >> >>>> >> > about > >> >>>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >> >>>> >> > development > >> >>>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness > field, also > >> >>>> >> > national in scope. > >> >>>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never > felt like the > >> >>>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >> >>>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >> >>>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >> >>>> >> > professionals. > >> >>>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >> >>>> >> > ever > >> >>>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but > >> >>>> >> > they > >> >>>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because > >> >>>> >> > they > >> >>>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should > >> >>>> >> > have > >> >>>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the > >> >>>> >> > organization. I had too much of > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > a > >> >>>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I > was reliable > >> >>>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done > should have > >> >>>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who > >> >>>> >> > could > >> >>>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new > ideas, and most > >> >>>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >> >>>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >> >>>> >> > sustaining. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >> >>>> >> > don't > >> >>>> >> > want > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > it > >> >>>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well > >> >>>> >> > know > >> >>>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the > college kids on > >> >>>> >> > the > >> >>>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB > >> >>>> >> > banner > >> >>>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the > >> >>>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys > >> >>>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and > talents that will > >> >>>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. > >> >>>> >> > The > >> >>>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB > president, > >> >>>> >> > and > >> >>>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is > brave enough to > >> >>>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a > >> >>>> >> > world > >> >>>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology > >> >>>> >> > has > >> >>>> >> > seen > >> >>>> >>to that. > >> >>>> >> > Whether > >> >>>> >> > or > >> >>>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we > >> >>>> >> > want > >> >>>> >> > it to exist. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >> >>>> >> > what > >> >>>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? > >> >>>> >> > They > >> >>>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > figure out in > >> >>>> >> > our > >> >>>> >>camp. > >> >>>> >> > The > >> >>>> >> > few > >> >>>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less > money. Let that be > >> >>>> >> > a > >> >>>> >> > lesson in financial management to you. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >> >>>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My > >> >>>> >> > only > >> >>>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new > generation > >> >>>> >> > of > >> >>>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never > >> >>>> >> > taste > >> >>>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the > >> >>>> >> > teacher > >> >>>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe > it or not, > >> >>>> >> > I > >> >>>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it > is you want > >> >>>> >> > to > >> >>>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to > myself here lest > >> >>>> >> > I > >> >>>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame > >> >>>> >> > attempt > >> >>>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are > humility to > >> >>>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >> >>>> >> > what > >> >>>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Joe > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > -- > >> >>>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Visit my blog: > >> >>>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>> >> > 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Antivirus > >> >>>> >>protection is active. > >> >>>> >>http://www.avast.com > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >>_______________________________________________ > >> >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >> >>>> >> nabs-l: > >> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlym > ih% 40comcast.net > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >> >>>> > nabs-l: > >> >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> -- > >> >>>> Kaiti > >> >>>> > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >>>> nabs-l: > >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Kaiti > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From matt.dierckens at me.com Sat Apr 5 11:24:20 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2014 07:24:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A special offer from Blind Access Training Message-ID: <12A594AF-0B8C-4651-9892-5E89E6A10F18@me.com> Hello folks. I wanted to write to you all and tell you about a special offer that Blind Access Training is having on our training packages from now until April 18. Blind Access Training is offering a 20% discount for each of our training services starting April 4th, which will end April 18th at 6:00 PM Pacific standard time. To visit and view a list of our training packages, you may visithttp://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ Each training package will be available for $64.00 for a month after signing up; however, once more this offer is no longer valid after April 18th. Please call us Monday through Friday to sign up at 1-877-774-7670, or you may pay after viewing the training packages page. After the package is paid for, a trainer will contact you the next business day. Blind Access Training includes the following services. Macintosh Training IOS training Windows training Web design training Thank you. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 12:59:22 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 08:59:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A special offer from Blind Access Training References: <12A594AF-0B8C-4651-9892-5E89E6A10F18@me.com> Message-ID: <5BBC9A63471D478EB33D69DF527D15B3@robert9999b7cf> Can you sampple the training before you buy so that you know what you'll be getting? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Dierckens" To: "National Association Of Blind Students Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2014 7:24 AM Subject: [nabs-l] A special offer from Blind Access Training > Hello folks. > I wanted to write to you all and tell you about a special offer that Blind > Access Training is having on our training packages from now until April > 18. > Blind Access Training is offering a 20% discount for each of our training > services starting April 4th, which will end April 18th at 6:00 PM Pacific > standard time. > > To visit and view a list of our training packages, you may > visithttp://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ > > Each training package will be available for $64.00 for a month after > signing up; however, once more this offer is no longer valid after April > 18th. > > Please call us Monday through Friday to sign up at 1-877-774-7670, or you > may pay after viewing the training packages page. > > After the package is paid for, a trainer will contact you the next > business day. > > Blind Access Training includes the following services. > Macintosh Training > IOS training > Windows training > Web design training > Thank you. > > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From matt.dierckens at me.com Sat Apr 5 14:04:36 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2014 10:04:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] A special offer from Blind Access Training In-Reply-To: <5BBC9A63471D478EB33D69DF527D15B3@robert9999b7cf> References: <12A594AF-0B8C-4651-9892-5E89E6A10F18@me.com> <5BBC9A63471D478EB33D69DF527D15B3@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: Hello RJ. No, however, we do offer a $30/h training service. So, lets say you wanted to sample some training. You could sign up for 1 hour of training, and then if you wanted to do the training package, then that could be an option for you. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 5, 2014, at 8:59 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Can you sampple the training before you buy so that you know what you'll be getting? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Dierckens" > To: "National Association Of Blind Students Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2014 7:24 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] A special offer from Blind Access Training > > >> Hello folks. >> I wanted to write to you all and tell you about a special offer that Blind Access Training is having on our training packages from now until April 18. >> Blind Access Training is offering a 20% discount for each of our training services starting April 4th, which will end April 18th at 6:00 PM Pacific standard time. >> >> To visit and view a list of our training packages, you may visithttp://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ >> >> Each training package will be available for $64.00 for a month after signing up; however, once more this offer is no longer valid after April 18th. >> >> Please call us Monday through Friday to sign up at 1-877-774-7670, or you may pay after viewing the training packages page. >> >> After the package is paid for, a trainer will contact you the next business day. >> >> Blind Access Training includes the following services. >> Macintosh Training >> IOS training >> Windows training >> Web design training >> Thank you. >> >> >> Matthew Dierckens >> Macintosh Trainer >> Blind Access Training >> www.blindaccesstraining.com >> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Sat Apr 5 17:00:35 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2014 11:00:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Inclusion of mentally ill/chronically ill disabled folks in NFB Message-ID: <534036B3.8010405@comcast.net> Hi, all. In keeping with the thread about including the mentally and chronically ill, I think it would be good to get this going. I had a group of individuals who was interested, but now I don't know what to do next. Anyway, there's just one thing. I am thinking about us doing a conference on Saturday at some point, not this or next Saturday or the Saturday after. I'd like to wait till May and all, so that nobody has to study or do finals and such. What do you guys think? Beth -- Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach me by skype at denverqueen0920 From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 20:29:39 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 14:29:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions Message-ID: Hi all, I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at work or get from colleagues. I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider using my iPhone instead of a laptop. So my questions are: (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on a Mac or iPhone? (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? Thanks, Arielle From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 20:45:25 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan L. Silveira) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 16:45:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FED708B-D415-4AD5-A40F-FFC50AD7F93E@gmail.com> Hi, As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think you can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to recommend a good computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you really need windows, you can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with an iPad. Hope this helps. Ryan Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am > starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my > office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can > use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at > work or get from colleagues. > > I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, > or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files > using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider > using my iPhone instead of a laptop. > > So my questions are: > (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? > (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on > a Mac or iPhone? > (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that > are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? > (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? > > Thanks, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Sat Apr 5 20:51:30 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2014 16:51:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I am in the NJ Commission for the Blind's pilot program, I use Pages to do all of my work. My teachers send my documents to me in Pages, and I write on them with my IPad and send them back. Mikayla Sent from my iPad On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am > starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my > office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can > use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at > work or get from colleagues. > > I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, > or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files > using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider > using my iPhone instead of a laptop. > > So my questions are: > (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? > (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on > a Mac or iPhone? > (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that > are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? > (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? > > Thanks, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From musicproandy at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 20:55:24 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 16:55:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: <9FED708B-D415-4AD5-A40F-FFC50AD7F93E@gmail.com> References: <9FED708B-D415-4AD5-A40F-FFC50AD7F93E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I use a MacBook Pro, but an Air would also be a good choice, especially if you want ridiculous portability and something like 12 hours of battery life. I've found Pages to be plenty for my needs, but I haven't needed to deal with documents involving complicated formatting so can't comment on VoiceOver's behavior with those types of documents. If you had to, you could use Bootcamp to install Windows on the Mac, giving you the best of both worlds. I don't know of anything Windows-specific. Sorry! On 4/5/14, Ryan L. Silveira wrote: > Hi, > As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all > accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think you > can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to recommend a good > computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you really need windows, you > can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with an iPad. Hope this > helps. > Ryan > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am >> starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my >> office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can >> use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at >> work or get from colleagues. >> >> I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, >> or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files >> using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider >> using my iPhone instead of a laptop. >> >> So my questions are: >> (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? >> (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on >> a Mac or iPhone? >> (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that >> are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? >> (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? >> >> Thanks, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 21:09:11 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 15:09:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: References: <9FED708B-D415-4AD5-A40F-FFC50AD7F93E@gmail.com> Message-ID: So if you use Pages, do you ever have to save your documents in Word or open someone else's Word doc? How well does that work? On 4/5/14, Andy wrote: > I use a MacBook Pro, but an Air would also be a good choice, > especially if you want ridiculous portability and something like 12 > hours of battery life. I've found Pages to be plenty for my needs, > but I haven't needed to deal with documents involving complicated > formatting so can't comment on VoiceOver's behavior with those types > of documents. If you had to, you could use Bootcamp to install > Windows on the Mac, giving you the best of both worlds. > > I don't know of anything Windows-specific. Sorry! > > On 4/5/14, Ryan L. Silveira wrote: >> Hi, >> As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all >> accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think you >> can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to recommend a good >> computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you really need windows, >> you >> can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with an iPad. Hope this >> helps. >> Ryan >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am >>> starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my >>> office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can >>> use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at >>> work or get from colleagues. >>> >>> I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, >>> or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files >>> using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider >>> using my iPhone instead of a laptop. >>> >>> So my questions are: >>> (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? >>> (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on >>> a Mac or iPhone? >>> (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that >>> are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? >>> (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 21:36:40 2014 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 17:36:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: References: <9FED708B-D415-4AD5-A40F-FFC50AD7F93E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Arielle, While netbooks have mostly been replaced by tablets, I believe that ultrabooks are still fairly popular - The last time I checked (I was shopping for a new laptop about a year ago) there were plenty of ultrabook models to choose from on Amazon.com. I ended up going with a regular laptop because I wanted something with enough power to run SPSS, but most of the ultrabook options looked very promising to me. You might be able to get slightly better hardware with Macbooks for a similar price, but based on what I remember from the other discussion thread on the Blind Academics list (which I believed you were also a part of), the accessibility of MS Office on Apple platforms still has much to be desired, especially for those of us who use features like comments and track changes extensively. Surface Pro is a Windows-based tablet, though I'm not sure if it runs third-party screen-readers like JAWS. I'm curious about what you end up deciding so keep us posted! Katie On 4/5/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: > So if you use Pages, do you ever have to save your documents in Word > or open someone else's Word doc? How well does that work? > > On 4/5/14, Andy wrote: >> I use a MacBook Pro, but an Air would also be a good choice, >> especially if you want ridiculous portability and something like 12 >> hours of battery life. I've found Pages to be plenty for my needs, >> but I haven't needed to deal with documents involving complicated >> formatting so can't comment on VoiceOver's behavior with those types >> of documents. If you had to, you could use Bootcamp to install >> Windows on the Mac, giving you the best of both worlds. >> >> I don't know of anything Windows-specific. Sorry! >> >> On 4/5/14, Ryan L. Silveira wrote: >>> Hi, >>> As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all >>> accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think >>> you >>> can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to recommend a good >>> computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you really need windows, >>> you >>> can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with an iPad. Hope this >>> helps. >>> Ryan >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am >>>> starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my >>>> office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can >>>> use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at >>>> work or get from colleagues. >>>> >>>> I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, >>>> or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files >>>> using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider >>>> using my iPhone instead of a laptop. >>>> >>>> So my questions are: >>>> (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? >>>> (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on >>>> a Mac or iPhone? >>>> (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that >>>> are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? >>>> (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sun Apr 6 00:34:42 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2014 19:34:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: <9FED708B-D415-4AD5-A40F-FFC50AD7F93E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ryan, I had understood that Numbers does not work all that well with VoiceOver. Has that changed? Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 16:45:25 -0400, Ryan L. Silveira wrote: >Hi, >As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think you can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to recommend a good computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you really need windows, you can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with an iPad. Hope this helps. >Ryan >Sent from my iPhone >> On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am >> starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my >> office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can >> use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at >> work or get from colleagues. >> >> I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, >> or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files >> using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider >> using my iPhone instead of a laptop. >> >> So my questions are: >> (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? >> (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on >> a Mac or iPhone? >> (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that >> are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? >> (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? >> >> Thanks, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From matt.dierckens at me.com Sun Apr 6 00:41:26 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2014 20:41:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Numbers works very well with voiceover since the new IWork updates. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 5, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Ryan, > > I had understood that Numbers does not work all that well with VoiceOver. Has that changed? > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 16:45:25 -0400, Ryan L. Silveira wrote: > >> Hi, >> As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think you can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to > recommend a good computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you really need windows, you can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with an iPad. Hope this helps. >> Ryan > >> Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am >>> starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my >>> office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can >>> use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at >>> work or get from colleagues. >>> >>> I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, >>> or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files >>> using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider >>> using my iPhone instead of a laptop. >>> >>> So my questions are: >>> (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? >>> (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on >>> a Mac or iPhone? >>> (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that >>> are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? >>> (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From musicproandy at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 01:00:05 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 21:00:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Numbers works quite well now. Pages now reads tables, and I've noticed general accessibility improvements across the board with the new iWork suite. On 4/5/14, Matthew Dierckens wrote: > Numbers works very well with voiceover since the new IWork updates. > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > On Apr 5, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote: > >> Ryan, >> >> I had understood that Numbers does not work all that well with VoiceOver. >> Has that changed? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 16:45:25 -0400, Ryan L. Silveira wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all >>> accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think you >>> can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to >> recommend a good computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you really >> need windows, you can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with an >> iPad. Hope this helps. >>> Ryan >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am >>>> starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my >>>> office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can >>>> use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at >>>> work or get from colleagues. >>>> >>>> I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, >>>> or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files >>>> using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider >>>> using my iPhone instead of a laptop. >>>> >>>> So my questions are: >>>> (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? >>>> (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on >>>> a Mac or iPhone? >>>> (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that >>>> are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? >>>> (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com > From blacklotus86 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 19:48:20 2014 From: blacklotus86 at gmail.com (zeynep sule yilmaz) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 14:48:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I use Toshiba ultrabook. So far, I'm very happy with this. You can get I7 processer with a new ultrabook. The only thing, do you plan to use windows 7 or 8? My recent ultrabook search showed me that they all come with windows 8. I do all my academic and internship work on this ultrabook and it is just 2.2lb Thanks Zeynep 2014-04-05 20:00 GMT-05:00, Andy : > Numbers works quite well now. Pages now reads tables, and I've > noticed general accessibility improvements across the board with the > new iWork suite. > > On 4/5/14, Matthew Dierckens wrote: >> Numbers works very well with voiceover since the new IWork updates. >> >> Matthew Dierckens >> Macintosh Trainer >> Blind Access Training >> www.blindaccesstraining.com >> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 5, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Steve Jacobson >> wrote: >> >>> Ryan, >>> >>> I had understood that Numbers does not work all that well with >>> VoiceOver. >>> Has that changed? >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 16:45:25 -0400, Ryan L. Silveira wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all >>>> accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think >>>> you >>>> can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to >>> recommend a good computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you >>> really >>> need windows, you can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with >>> an >>> iPad. Hope this helps. >>>> Ryan >>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am >>>>> starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my >>>>> office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can >>>>> use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at >>>>> work or get from colleagues. >>>>> >>>>> I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, >>>>> or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files >>>>> using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider >>>>> using my iPhone instead of a laptop. >>>>> >>>>> So my questions are: >>>>> (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? >>>>> (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on >>>>> a Mac or iPhone? >>>>> (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that >>>>> are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? >>>>> (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86%40gmail.com > From lissa1531 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 20:17:04 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 14:17:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue References: Message-ID: I have a friend who is working in a work shop in arizona. She is very honest about how the employers treat them. They have to tell a supervisor if they are going to the bathroom. When there are tours, the totally blind people are not allowed to walk around like their partially sighted co-workers. When she asked about this treatment, she was told that it was in case there is a fire, and other excuses are made. She has also been harassed because she is outspoken. If you can, watch the rock center report on this issue. there are other disability organizations standing with us on this issue. We have been saying that the nfb should be more inclusive and considerate of other disabilities, and i agree. It is not just a blindness issue. IMHPO, it is a human rights one as well. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue Yes to all the above. In my mind there are two problems here. First, it's assumed that disabled employees as a rule aren't productive enough to warrant minimum wage. I'm not convinced that assumption is true, but none of Goodwill's arguments for subminimum wages can hold up unless we all agree that disabled employees as a rule aren't productive enough. It's probably safe to say that any employee who's in a job he or she isn't good at will be less productive, and that a disabled employee will be less productive if he or she isn't properly accommodated. Which leads to my second issue: If a disabled employee isn't productive enough to warrant minimum wage, there are lots of other solutions besides paying him or her less. As Steve and others said, perhaps this employee belongs in a different job, or perhaps the job site or duties need to be modified so the disabled employee can perform better, or extra training and support needs to be provided. The subminimum wage laws reflect outdated ideas about disability which frame disability as being a problem with a person rather than a problem with how well the situation meets that person's needs. If you imagine doing your schoolwork without a screen reader or alternative format materials, and then think of how well you can do your work when those accommodations are in place, you'll see what I mean. Arielle On 4/3/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > If you are not disabled, you are going to tend to do a job you are > relatively good at. At the very least, you > will not likely work in a job to which you are not suited. You are not > expected to perform well in whatever job > you do. The minimum wage waiver takes away any incentive to > find disabled people work that they are good ad. If john has CP and can't > fold as many leaflets in an hour as can > someone without CP, just pay him less, don't find him a job that is less > dependent on physical dextarity. Maybe > John with CP has other strengths that are less affected by his > disability, but this is less likely to be considered since he can be paid > less for doing a job he isn't well- > suited. As a blind person, there are jobs that my lack of vision would > make > me a poor employee. That is true of > any > disability. Our disability can have an effect upon what we're good at. > The > minimum wage waiver takes away the > need to try to find jobs that match the persons ability. > > In addition, while blind people are less affected by this provision now, > it > was much more common to pay many blind > people in sheltered workshops less than the minimum wage not that long > ago. > When that practice was more common, > there were a number of documented instances where time studies were > manipulated to cause the individual to earn a > lower wage than would have otherwise been the case. Finally, remember > that > most of the entities that pay less > than > the minimum wage get preferential treatment in bidding for government > contracts. Many are charities who also get > donations and pay fewer taxes. These advantages were given to them to > compensate for the fact that there are some > workers who are > going to need extra training. There is no differentiation between people > who are working toward compettitive > employment and those for whom it has been decided they can't work > compettitively. It could be that in extreme > cases there will need to be some alternative status, and that's why what > we've called for has a three year phase- > out period for nonprofits. > > The law is now too brought, provides too few incentives to increase > productivity or to look at how well matched a > person is with his or her job, and provides too few checks and balances to > insure that employees are treated > fairly. There are something like fifty or more organizations representing > other disabled groups who are in > support of this legislation so this isn't just us. There have also been > some articles in the past showing how > certain other > groups have been mistreated under this provision. Of course, the fact > that > this provision doesn't provide real > incentives to increase a workers productivity doesn't mean that some of > the > agencies involved are not trying to do > the right thing. Still, we need something better, and while many of us > are > not affected right now, we have been > in the past and we could be again in the future. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:10:03 -0400, Andy wrote: > >>I thought I'd chime in here. >>Arielle, you say: >>"Some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are blind with no >>other disabilities." >>If this is true, I'm baffled as to why NFB is not using this approach >>for lobbying. Every article I've ever seen has discussed multiple >>disabilities. I think the NFB would have a stronger argument if they >>could find people with blindness as the only disability, and could >>procure evidence that they were, essentially, being exploited. I read >>an article, for instance, about a woman with cerebral palsy and >>blindness. The highest paycheck she earned was somewhere around $18. >>I've read many other such articles that detail similar cases. > >>You also say that productivity is subjective. I certainly agree. >>However, according to various articles, companies have been performing >>tests to try and find an acceptable salary based on the capabilities >>of the employees at their specific jobs. I would argue that employers >>are doing the best they can with the employees they have working for >>them. In one article I read, for instance, a woman's job was to hang >>clothes. Her salary was adjusted based on how well she did the job - >>essentially, her productivity. > >>Finally, you mention companies having prejudiced attitudes towards the >>disabled. I disagree. If these certificates were declared unlawful, >>then, from a business perspective, the only option is to lay off the >>employees. If an employee makes, say, an average of only a few >>pennies per hour, paying that employee the federal (or state) minimum >>wage is an exponential increase in their salary. This is obviously >>fantastic news for the employees; however, the business can't possibly >>sustain that model. Thus, the only option is to lay off the >>employees. I'm failing to understand how this helps them in any >>significant way; indeed, I would argue that, without a job, they would >>surely be hurting. > > >>On 4/2/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> I might write more about this when I have more time, but the short >>> answer is: (1) some employees are being paid subminimum wages who are >>> blind with no other disabilities, and (2) how productive an employee >>> can be is highly subjective. Many employees with developmental >>> disabilities are thought to be less productive than they actually can >>> be, and a lot of what affects productivity depends on the type of job, >>> the employer's expectations, and the training and support that the >>> disabled employee gets. It is not at all obvious that disabled >>> employees cannot be productive enough to justify paying them minimum >>> wage. Companies may lay off employees if forced to pay them minimum >>> wage, but only if they have prejudiced attitudes against the disabled >>> and falsely believe their disabled employees won't be productive >>> enough. >>> >>> I would encourage you to read the excellent article Anil Lewis sent >>> out about how Walgreen's employs a large number of employees with >>> developmental disabilities on their production lines, at minimum wage >>> or higher. Their experience has been very positive and they contend >>> that including the disabled employees as equal-status participants on >>> their staff has helped the morale and efficiency of their entire team. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/2/14, Michael Forzano wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB >>>> is involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to >>>> me. >>>> >>>> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >>>> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the >>>> job as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as >>>> cerebral palsy. If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty >>>> clear to me that the employers would lay off the people in question. >>>> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times >>>> more than you were paying them for the same amount of >>>> work/productivity, I don't think you'd have much choice. >>>> >>>> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because >>>> they have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them >>>> from working even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these >>>> people will likely have no job at all and be forced to spend their >>>> lives sitting at home on SSI. How is that helping them? at least right >>>> now, they have a job, something to keep them busy. >>>> >>>> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it >>>> seems pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the >>>> employers may want to continue to employ these people it just won't >>>> make sense. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 21:27:12 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 17:27:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions Message-ID: <5341c6ce.893eec0a.3ea0.5544@mx.google.com> Hi Mikayla I have a question for you. What do you use for your facetime and I messaging? I tried to facetime and i. message you yesterday using your email address but it did not work. Do you use your email address or a phone number for these tasks? From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 21:46:56 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 17:46:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140404144732.01f38840@comcast.net> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com> <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net> <533E822B.4080904@comcast.net> <81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140404093050.020e34c0@comcast.net> <3D7BBF84-AC2A-4353-9B55-B6A9056DFBB5@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140404144732.01f38840@comcast.net> Message-ID: Beth, I totally agree! That sounds like a really good basis for the group. Ashley also brings up a great point. Autism is not technically a mental illness, however I think that this group's purpose should be more to advocate for the needs of blind people with other disabilities or disorders, so it could certainly be beneficial to invite people with autism to join and to have you speak at some point. Great idea! The question is, how should this start? Should it be a group first, and then try to go to division status later on if things go well for a while? On 4/4/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, Ashley, > > Might you simply call me in Berkeley, California at > 408-209-3239? Your number is too complicated! > for today, CarAt 09:43 AM 4/4/2014, you wrote: >>i am autistic, and have thought about giving tahlks about being >>blind and autistic, and how to deal with my communication needs. >> >>AUTISM IS NOT A DISEASE! I AM AN AUTISM ADVOCATE, WRITER, AND >>SPEAKER. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE, OR WANT ME TO COME SPEAK, >>CALL ME AT 711,443,682,8862 OR LEAVE ME A MEOR TEXT ME AT 410,417,6676. >> >> > On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:39, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> > >> > Good morning, Kaiti, >> > >> > Guess I failed to consider how supporting blind people with >> mental illness and as in my case, brain damage, is separate from >> those kind of blind people speaking for themselves. >> > Would be interested as to whether such a group ever gets off the >> > ground! >> > for today, Car >> > >> > those who wish to support >> >> others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student >> >> divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are >> >> concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support >> >> is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which >> >> state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily >> >> in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has >> >> students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary, >> >> and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student >> >> at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational >> >> experience better for us. >> >> >> >> This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation >> >> as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and >> >> contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not >> >> directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because >> >> I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my >> >> line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and >> >> have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this >> >> list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though >> >> admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have >> >> identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just >> >> know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to >> >> be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have >> >> a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I >> >> definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The >> >> president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed >> >> with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must >> >> be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the >> >> division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested >> >> in giving support to join. >> >> >> >> Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that >> >> emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside >> >> member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the >> >> situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the >> >> members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness, >> >> but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with >> >> the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but >> >> since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division >> >> a few months ago, where several members were offended because they >> >> interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help >> >> from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be >> >> helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from >> >> having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not >> >> just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about. >> >> >> >> On 4/4/14, Darian wrote: >> >> > But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for >> someone who >> >> > cannot speak for themselves? >> >> > The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one >> can hope to be >> >> > in another person's best interest. >> >> > I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time >> and it will >> >> > not be the last time. >> >> > >> >> > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >> >> > >> >> >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of >> >> >> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does >> not make me >> >> >> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those >> >> >> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for >> >> >> themselves >> >> >> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of >> people like me, >> >> >> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are >> >> >> not >> >> >> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by >> >> >> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in >> point, a guy >> >> >> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the >> prodromal symtpoms, >> >> >> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer >> speaks, rather >> >> >> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he >> >> >> couldn't >> >> >> even speak for himself, much less others. >> >> >> Beth >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >>> Good evening, Kaiti, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called >> >> >>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the >> >> >>> Federation >> >> >>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable >> >> >>> of >> >> >>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? >> >> >>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> >> >>>> I think a good thing might look something like this: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of >> >> >>>> some >> >> >>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally >> >> >>>> ill >> >> >>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, >> I am going >> >> >>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with >> clients who have >> >> >>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such >> >> >>>> a >> >> >>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own >> >> >>>> might >> >> >>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a >> >> >>>> little >> >> >>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be >> >> >>>> able >> >> >>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >> >> >>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our >> >> >>>> constitution >> >> >>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to >> >> >>>> be >> >> >>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a >> >> >>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as >> >> >>>> long >> >> >>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are >> free to join >> >> >>>> and aid in the cause. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >>>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle >> >> >>>> > illness! >> >> >>>> > for today, Car >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >> >>>> >>Hi Ariel, >> >> >>>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer >> >> >>>> >> support. >> >> >>>> >> Which >> >> >>>> >> is >> >> >>>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >> >> >>>> >> Sam >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >>-----Original Message----- >> >> >>>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Arielle >> >> >>>> >>Silverman >> >> >>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >> >> >>>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> >>>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human >> services division >> >> >>>> >> could >> >> >>>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or >> division that >> >> >>>> >> is >> >> >>>> >> led >> >> >>>> >>by blind people with mental illness. >> >> >>>> >>Arielle >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > Hi everyone, >> >> >>>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one >> >> >>>> >> > hundred >> >> >>>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between >> >> >>>> >> > support/ >> >> >>>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other >> disabilities >> >> >>>> >> > along >> >> >>>> >>with blindness. >> >> >>>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and >> >> >>>> >> > mental >> >> >>>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about >> >> >>>> >> > therapists >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental >> illnessor how >> >> >>>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not >> understanding how >> >> >>>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's >> own getting a >> >> >>>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services >> >> >>>> >> > don't >> >> >>>> >> > allow >> >> >>>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >> >> >>>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list >> >> >>>> >> > called >> >> >>>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it >> since May and it >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each >> other day to >> >> >>>> >> > day >> >> >>>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources >> >> >>>> >> > if >> >> >>>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. >> >> >>>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only >> psychiatric >> >> >>>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. >> Does anyone know >> >> >>>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online >> >> >>>> >> > everywhere >> >> >>>> >> > for a >> >> >>>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > program >> >> >>>> >> > and how they do things. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sam >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Beth >> >> >>>> >> > Taurasi >> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >> >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the >> >> >>>> >> > thing >> >> >>>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get >> guardianship because >> >> >>>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated >> suicide because >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >>guardianship. >> >> >>>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off >> MySpace, but they >> >> >>>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > case >> >> >>>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > affects >> >> >>>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my >> relationship >> >> >>>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet >> >> >>>> >> > deep >> >> >>>> >> > down, >> >> >>>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to >> >> >>>> >> > Denver. >> >> >>>> >> > But >> >> >>>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To >> say that such >> >> >>>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 >> >> >>>> >> > "unpersons" >> >> >>>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be >> complicated, and >> >> >>>> >> > if >> >> >>>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >> >> >>>> >> > Beth >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton > >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Hello all, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections >> between the blind, >> >> >>>> >> > (we >> >> >>>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this >> conversation), >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other >> disabilities >> >> >>>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like >> the NFB is a >> >> >>>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst >> >> >>>> >> > for >> >> >>>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other >> groups are the >> >> >>>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, >> >> >>>> >> > persay, >> >> >>>> >> > then >> >> >>>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >> >> >>>> >> > relationships >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the >> >> >>>> >> > various >> >> >>>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might >> have phrased >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree >> >> >>>> >> > described, >> >> >>>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. >> Especially since, as >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups >> >> >>>> >> > like >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together >> and discuss >> >> >>>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their >> discussion >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the >> >> >>>> >> > cars >> >> >>>> >> > rather >> >> >>>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for >> >> >>>> >> > blind >> >> >>>> >> > people >> >> >>>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not >> okay? To me, >> >> >>>> >> > that just doesn't make sense. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would >> label myself as >> >> >>>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to >> >> >>>> >> > label >> >> >>>> >> > myself >> >> >>>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that >> >> >>>> >> > nature >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, >> >> >>>> >> > conservatives >> >> >>>> >> > aren't >> >> >>>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is >> >> >>>> >> > important >> >> >>>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the >> >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >> >>>> >> > had >> >> >>>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > this >> >> >>>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of >> >> >>>> >> > convention? >> >> >>>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or >> anything else? I >> >> >>>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun >> >> >>>> >> > double >> >> >>>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are >> different from us >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > suit >> >> >>>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem >> >> >>>> >> > right. >> >> >>>> >> > Sorry for the rant. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that >> >> >>>> >> > will >> >> >>>> >> > never >> >> >>>> >> > happen again. >> >> >>>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > then >> >> >>>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it >> going. IMO >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the >> >> >>>> >> > spotlight >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > be the darling of >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > chapters and >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and >> >> >>>> >> > wondering >> >> >>>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could >> >> >>>> >> > give >> >> >>>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. >> >> >>>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who >> were born and >> >> >>>> >> > grew up in >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes >> >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> >> >>>> >> > withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't >> >> >>>> >> > able >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, >> especially >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to >> see something >> >> >>>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I >> >> >>>> >> > completely >> >> >>>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division >> >> >>>> >> > for >> >> >>>> >> > every >> >> >>>> >>special interest. >> >> >>>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > then >> >> >>>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. >> >> >>>> >> > We >> >> >>>> >> > can't >> >> >>>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >> >> >>>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > general >> >> >>>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been >> polled about >> >> >>>> >> > whether >> >> >>>> >>to keep having these religious invocations? >> >> >>>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > reflects >> >> >>>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political >> views alone, >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > formed >> >> >>>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful >> enough to justify >> >> >>>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed >> out, a well-run >> >> >>>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the >> >> >>>> >> > hassle >> >> >>>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least >> some of the >> >> >>>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy >> with just a >> >> >>>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers >> >> >>>> >> > list. >> >> >>>> >> > But the >> >> >>>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. >> However this is >> >> >>>> >> > not >> >> >>>> >> > occurring. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of >> blindness. Yet, we are a >> >> >>>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to >> >> >>>> >> > become >> >> >>>> >> > more >> >> >>>> >> > diverse. I also >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > if >> >> >>>> >> > they have >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do >> >> >>>> >> > anything >> >> >>>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group >> >> >>>> >> > came >> >> >>>> >> > together >> >> >>>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >> >> >>>> >> > transgendered >> >> >>>> >>people. >> >> >>>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >> >> >>>> >> > announcement and >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many >> >> >>>> >> > people >> >> >>>> >> > left >> >> >>>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly >> >> >>>> >> > for >> >> >>>> >> > social >> >> >>>> >> > purposes. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring >> >> >>>> >> > many >> >> >>>> >> > more >> >> >>>> >> > changes >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going >> to wait and >> >> >>>> >> > see >> >> >>>> >> > what happens. >> >> >>>> >> > Have a blessed day. >> >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes >> >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> >> >>>> >> > multipledisabilities? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Hi all, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an >> important issue >> >> >>>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more >> blind folks >> >> >>>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several >> reasons, the number >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to >> >> >>>> >> > increase, >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> >> >>>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in >> advocacy is >> >> >>>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the >> >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >> >>>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > people >> >> >>>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as >> >> >>>> >> > an >> >> >>>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> >> >>>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's >> particularly true >> >> >>>> >> > when >> >> >>>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual >> disabilities and >> >> >>>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to >> >> >>>> >> > be >> >> >>>> >> > highly >> >> >>>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent >> >> >>>> >> > effort >> >> >>>> >> > from >> >> >>>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> >> >>>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions >> >> >>>> >> > can >> >> >>>> >> > feel >> >> >>>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble >> holding down >> >> >>>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and >> downs of mental >> >> >>>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly >> creative and >> >> >>>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are >> getting lost. >> >> >>>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people >> with multiple >> >> >>>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> >> >>>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been >> >> >>>> >> > able >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > help >> >> >>>> >>them with. >> >> >>>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, >> >> >>>> >> > just >> >> >>>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more >> >> >>>> >> > divisions >> >> >>>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other >> conditions. There is >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great >> things about >> >> >>>> >> > its >> >> >>>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >> >> >>>> >> > wheelchair >> >> >>>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to >> discuss with each >> >> >>>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >> >> >>>> >> > formed. >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with >> mental health >> >> >>>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >> >> >>>> >> > there >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >> >> >>>> >> > divisions >> >> >>>> >> > don't >> >> >>>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if >> >> >>>> >> > there >> >> >>>> >> > just >> >> >>>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. >> >> >>>> >> > But I >> >> >>>> >> > think >> >> >>>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> >> >>>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >> organization, >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >> >> >>>> >> > education >> >> >>>> >> > about >> >> >>>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB >> >> >>>> >> > as a >> >> >>>> >> > whole >> >> >>>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I >> >> >>>> >> > would >> >> >>>> >> > be >> >> >>>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is >> >> >>>> >> > something >> >> >>>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >> positions in >> >> >>>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> >> >>>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > going >> >> >>>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Best, >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > Joe and others, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human >> beings and >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one >> >> >>>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of >> right or wrong >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while >> back now on an >> >> >>>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >> more funds than >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >> >> >>>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When >> you look at >> >> >>>> >> > our >> >> >>>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare >> legislative successes >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that >> legislative successes >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely >> >> >>>> >> > agree >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >> ACB has made >> >> >>>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >> >> >>>> >> > feel >> >> >>>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved >> >> >>>> >> > by >> >> >>>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >> example. There >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that >> >> >>>> >> > will >> >> >>>> >> > force >> >> >>>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to >> believe this >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for >> >> >>>> >> > us, >> >> >>>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. >> >> >>>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to >> understand >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >> >> >>>> >> > information >> >> >>>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being >> >> >>>> >> > able >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can >> >> >>>> >> > do >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > at some point. >> >> >>>> >> > However, I >> >> >>>> >> > got >> >> >>>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting >> >> >>>> >> > information >> >> >>>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant >> portion of our >> >> >>>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it >> was something >> >> >>>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when >> I held up a >> >> >>>> >> > KNFB >> >> >>>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a >> national convention >> >> >>>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have >> it start to read >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand >> kids who have >> >> >>>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our >> >> >>>> >> > efforts. >> >> >>>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for >> >> >>>> >> > blind >> >> >>>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the >> technology field. We >> >> >>>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > this >> >> >>>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know >> >> >>>> >> > all >> >> >>>> >> > this. >> >> >>>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and >> >> >>>> >> > perspectives. >> >> >>>> >> > We >> >> >>>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will >> >> >>>> >> > make a >> >> >>>> >> > difference. >> >> >>>> >> > Frankly, >> >> >>>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from >> what doesn't >> >> >>>> >> > work >> >> >>>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make >> a mistake you >> >> >>>> >> > can >> >> >>>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >> >> >>>> >> > thousand >> >> >>>> >> > kids >> >> >>>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we >> did with the >> >> >>>> >> > KNFB >> >> >>>> >>reader? >> >> >>>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might >> we ever see >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret >> >> >>>> >> > software >> >> >>>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > educate every person who writes >> >> >>>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > way >> >> >>>> >> > for us >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars >> >> >>>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > at >> >> >>>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't >> >> >>>> >> > really >> >> >>>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >> >> >>>> >> > roots >> >> >>>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have >> had any affect >> >> >>>> >> > on >> >> >>>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time >> >> >>>> >> > for >> >> >>>> >> > that. >> >> >>>> >> > But it also means that we change. >> >> >>>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >> >> >>>> >> > change. >> >> >>>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >> >> >>>> >> > challenges >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that >> >> >>>> >> > way, >> >> >>>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >> individuals and >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > an organization. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of >> >> >>>> >> > our >> >> >>>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the >> >> >>>> >> > marketing >> >> >>>> >> > does >> >> >>>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to >> draw conclusions >> >> >>>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking >> employment as >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >> >> >>>> >> > Incorporated >> >> >>>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other >> centers. Some of the >> >> >>>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > have >> >> >>>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just >> >> >>>> >> > one >> >> >>>> >> > tool. >> >> >>>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through >> >> >>>> >> > training. >> >> >>>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> >> >>>> >> > Legislating >> >> >>>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot >> >> >>>> >> > discriminate >> >> >>>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >> >> >>>> >> > won't >> >> >>>> >> > matter >> >> >>>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >> >> >>>> >> > training >> >> >>>> >> > won't >> >> >>>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >> >> >>>> >> > education. >> >> >>>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > problem >> >> >>>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You >> >> >>>> >> > can't >> >> >>>> >> > pick >> >> >>>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success >> by itself, >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing >> on its own. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > impact >> >> >>>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget >> than we were. >> >> >>>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand >> >> >>>> >> > where >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > can >> >> >>>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > need >> >> >>>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't >> >> >>>> >> > see >> >> >>>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of >> this organization. >> >> >>>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our >> understanding of >> >> >>>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is >> what has set >> >> >>>> >> > us >> >> >>>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that >> >> >>>> >> > branching >> >> >>>> >> > out >> >> >>>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We >> >> >>>> >> > need >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Best regards, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Steve Jacobson >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle, >> >> >>>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive >> >> >>>> >> > response. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Joe, >> >> >>>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these >> >> >>>> >> > observations >> >> >>>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while >> I deeply respect >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the >> raw potential the >> >> >>>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined >> with back in >> >> >>>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think >> >> >>>> >> > this >> >> >>>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately >> >> >>>> >> > needs >> >> >>>> >> > members >> >> >>>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and >> who are willing >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >> no-nonsense way that >> >> >>>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when >> those of us >> >> >>>> >> > less >> >> >>>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with >> political power >> >> >>>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national >> level, and more >> >> >>>> >> > still within our local chapters. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Hi Joe, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been >> >> >>>> >> > following >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > saying >> >> >>>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >> >> >>>> >> > felt >> >> >>>> >> > like >> >> >>>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > all >> >> >>>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of >> >> >>>> >> > banquet >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > prize >> >> >>>> >> > drawings and the like. >> >> >>>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have >> been cut due >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady >> reliable income >> >> >>>> >>sources. >> >> >>>> >> > So >> >> >>>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >> alternative could be >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > loss of programs and resources. >> >> >>>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned >> away or refused >> >> >>>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is >> >> >>>> >> > truly >> >> >>>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective >> members choose not >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization >> >> >>>> >> > or >> >> >>>> >> > judgment >> >> >>>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >> >> >>>> >> > perception >> >> >>>> >> > only, >> >> >>>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a >> >> >>>> >> > radical >> >> >>>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >> expecting to find >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. >> However, there >> >> >>>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain >> segments of >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I >> >> >>>> >> > am >> >> >>>> >> > not >> >> >>>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively >> unskilled when I >> >> >>>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. >> But I know not >> >> >>>> >> > all >> >> >>>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective >> members who have >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or >> >> >>>> >> > division >> >> >>>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >> >> >>>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be >> sensitive to >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > the organization. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >> >> >>>> >> > wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > Hello all. >> >> >>>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live >> >> >>>> >> > my >> >> >>>> >> > own >> >> >>>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe >> in a one size >> >> >>>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >> >> >>>> >> > does. >> >> >>>> >> > Thanks. >> >> >>>> >> > Mike >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur >> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> >> >>>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind >> >> >>>> >> > Students >> >> >>>> >> > mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, >> and Seminary >> >> >>>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been >> nice to have a >> >> >>>> >>mentoor. >> >> >>>> >> > RJ >> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: "Joe" > >> >>>> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. >> >> >>>> >> > While >> >> >>>> >> > there >> >> >>>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt >> glad to be >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > the company >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges >> that awaited me >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished >> up my summer >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >> business with >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm >> >> >>>> >> > from >> >> >>>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very >> >> >>>> >> > well-suited >> >> >>>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people >> >> >>>> >> > fall >> >> >>>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those >> >> >>>> >> > infrequent >> >> >>>> >>gatherings. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> >> >>>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, >> and in turn >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > rather >> >> >>>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >> >> >>>> >> > into >> >> >>>> >> > listen >> >> >>>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >> for this fund >> >> >>>> >> > or >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >>effort. >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > found >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >> >> >>>> >> > monthly >> >> >>>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just >> to the focus >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >> >> >>>> >> > perhaps >> >> >>>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >> >> >>>> >> > e-mails >> >> >>>> >> > from >> >> >>>> >> > so-called friends from whom >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to >> contribute to their >> >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >> >>>> >> > fundraising campaigns. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and >> >> >>>> >> > forgot >> >> >>>> >> > about >> >> >>>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >> >> >>>> >> > development >> >> >>>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >> field, also >> >> >>>> >> > national in scope. >> >> >>>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never >> felt like the >> >> >>>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus >> >> >>>> >> > on >> >> >>>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >> >> >>>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent >> >> >>>> >> > blind >> >> >>>> >> > professionals. >> >> >>>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > ever >> >> >>>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >> >> >>>> >> > but >> >> >>>> >> > they >> >> >>>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or >> >> >>>> >> > because >> >> >>>> >> > they >> >> >>>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I >> >> >>>> >> > should >> >> >>>> >> > have >> >> >>>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > organization. I had too much of >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I >> was reliable >> >> >>>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done >> should have >> >> >>>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >> >> >>>> >> > who >> >> >>>> >> > could >> >> >>>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new >> ideas, and most >> >> >>>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some >> >> >>>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > sustaining. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > don't >> >> >>>> >> > want >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as >> >> >>>> >> > well >> >> >>>> >> > know >> >> >>>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the >> college kids on >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the >> >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >> >>>> >> > banner >> >> >>>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing >> >> >>>> >> > ploys >> >> >>>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >> talents that will >> >> >>>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything >> >> >>>> >> > new. >> >> >>>> >> > The >> >> >>>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB >> president, >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is >> brave enough to >> >> >>>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > world >> >> >>>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >> >> >>>> >> > Technology >> >> >>>> >> > has >> >> >>>> >> > seen >> >> >>>> >>to that. >> >> >>>> >> > Whether >> >> >>>> >> > or >> >> >>>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > want >> >> >>>> >> > it to exist. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you >> >> >>>> >> > know >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >> >> >>>> >> > house? >> >> >>>> >> > They >> >> >>>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >> figure out in >> >> >>>> >> > our >> >> >>>> >>camp. >> >> >>>> >> > The >> >> >>>> >> > few >> >> >>>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less >> money. Let that be >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > lesson in financial management to you. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told >> >> >>>> >> > myself I >> >> >>>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. >> >> >>>> >> > My >> >> >>>> >> > only >> >> >>>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >> generation >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you >> >> >>>> >> > never >> >> >>>> >> > taste >> >> >>>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > teacher >> >> >>>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe >> it or not, >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it >> is you want >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to >> myself here lest >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >> >> >>>> >> > attempt >> >> >>>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are >> humility to >> >> >>>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn >> >> >>>> >> > away >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Joe >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -- >> >> >>>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Visit my blog: >> >> >>>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l 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Antivirus >> >> >>>> >>protection is active. >> >> >>>> >>http://www.avast.com >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> >> >>>> >> nabs-l: >> >> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlym >> ih% 40comcast.net >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for >> >> >>>> > nabs-l: >> >> >>>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> -- >> >> >>>> Kaiti >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >>>> for >> >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >> >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >>> for >> >> >>> nabs-l: >> >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> >> for >> >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> >> > for >> >> > nabs-l: >> >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kaiti >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sarah.meyer55 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 22:03:45 2014 From: sarah.meyer55 at gmail.com (Sarah Meyer) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 18:03:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School and Training Center? Message-ID: Hi all, I wanted to share an update about my academic/professional life and ask for some input. I was recently accepted into Ball State University's Dual Master's Degree program in Counseling Psychology (Clinical Mental Health track) and Social Psychology and am planning to begin coursework in August. At the same time, I have had an ongoing desire to attend one of the NFB training centers but have never found the "right" time to do this. I attended the Student Seminar hosted by the Midwestern Associations of Blind Students this weekend, which made me realize that I really should probably just "make the time" for a training center, but I'm still not sure about the best timing and the steps to take. I am concerned that VR won't allow me to attend a Center because they may think I don't really need such intense training. I have good O&M skills and manage well with Braille and assistive technology; I have also been working as an Independent Living Advocate at a Center for Independent Living, which has included teaching independent living skills to people with various disabilities. VR (and others) may say that I am already well-adjusted and that I function very well and independently. I know I have sufficient skills to get by but also know I really struggle with confidence and that there are still many areas where I need to grow to become even more efficient and independent. I could really use some guidance to help me decide if I should make the time for a Training Center and if so, when and how to go about doing so. I don't want to lose my spot in my Graduate program because I really believe it is an amazing fit for me and I have been so excited to further my education and to move forward in the field of counseling and possibly research and teaching. Has anyone had a similar experience? Has anyone ever deferred acceptance to an academic program? Thanks so much for any thoughts/suggestions, Sarah -- Sarah K. Meyer NFB of Indy - Community Outreach, Advocacy, and Legislation (COAL), Chair IndyGo/IPTC Mobility Advisory Committee (MAC), Member (317) 402-6632 From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 22:22:27 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 16:22:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School and Training Center? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sarah, I attended LCB for seven months before starting grad school, but I didn't need to defer because I graduated from undergrad in December and started grad school in August. I definitely understand your desire not to give up a spot after being accepted. I wonder if a good compromise would be for you to attend an NFB center from May-August? Although you won't complete all the graduation requirements for the center in three months, it will still give you some time to work on your skills and confidence. Another option might be to attend a center after you complete your master's program and apply for jobs while you are at the center. I think that voc rehab in most states considers training to be a standard service for blind clients. I haven't heard of anyone being denied funding for a training center because their skills were "too good". What might be an issue is getting them to send you to the center of your choice. However, the law is on your side in this matter and all of us are able to help you explain to VR why the NFB centers are worth the extra money. Arielle On 4/6/14, Sarah Meyer wrote: > Hi all, > I wanted to share an update about my academic/professional life and > ask for some input. > > I was recently accepted into Ball > State University's Dual Master's Degree program in Counseling > Psychology (Clinical Mental Health track) and Social Psychology and am > planning to begin coursework in August. > At the same time, I have had an ongoing desire to attend one of the > NFB training centers but have never found the "right" time to do this. > I attended the Student Seminar hosted by the Midwestern Associations > of Blind Students this weekend, which made me realize that I really > should probably just > "make the time" for a training center, but I'm still not sure about > the best timing and the steps to take. I am concerned that VR won't > allow me to attend a Center because they may think I don't really need > such intense training. I have good O&M skills and manage well with > Braille and assistive technology; I have also been working as an > Independent Living Advocate at a Center for Independent Living, which > has included teaching independent living skills to people with various > disabilities. VR (and others) may say that I am already well-adjusted > and that I function very well and independently. I know I have > sufficient skills to get by but also know I really struggle with > confidence and that there are still many areas where I need to grow to > become even more efficient and independent. I could really use > some guidance to help me decide if I should make the time for a > Training Center and if so, when and how to go about doing so. I don't > want to lose my spot in my Graduate program because I really believe > it is an amazing fit for me and I have been so excited to further my > education and to move forward in the field of counseling and possibly > research and teaching. > > Has anyone had a similar experience? Has anyone ever deferred > acceptance to an academic program? > > Thanks so much for any thoughts/suggestions, > > Sarah > > -- > Sarah K. Meyer > NFB of Indy - Community Outreach, Advocacy, and Legislation (COAL), Chair > IndyGo/IPTC Mobility Advisory Committee (MAC), Member > (317) 402-6632 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 22:30:38 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 18:30:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs Message-ID: Hi all, For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations on campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my situation now. Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community service fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my freshman year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter was run in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did everything and never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The elections seemed more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by current exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see in future exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a bitter taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't want to be a part of the organization. That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot better. This one is a professional organization more geared towards my major. It is smaller, and still does service, which I like. However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication and access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work fine for the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not work for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was posted online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, people are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I wonder if she didn't see it." This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I am a bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very well if I know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. However, with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive from my sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am unable to contribute in the way I want to. I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was not elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted the recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this year have made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these responsibilities to my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never asked. I specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have particular experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are taken in Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would have run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would have been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and musical ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I have gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in my way. I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be best friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, which isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I say something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when we're sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the people this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, and I'm one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are older and younger than her than with students in my year. I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at all, but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these issues. -- Kaiti From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 23:08:57 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 17:08:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kaiti, Have you tried talking with the fraternity president or whoever does the documents and request they email you the documents in accessible format or let you know when something is posted? That seems reasonable to me. They don't have to change their whole system, but just providing an accessible format for you shouldn't be a big inconvenience for them. I have had similar experiences with not feeling completely included in student groups. It still happens in grad school. I don't have a great solution to suggest, except maybe to just try being friends with one or two people in the group. That could go a long way. I was involved with our Hillel Jewish Student Center in college and served on their board for a year or two, but I don't think the elections were very competitive. It was a big group and a lot of the members didn't really talk to me either, but I was able to find a few folks I hung out with pretty consistently, some of whom were on the student board. I think I also had classes with or lived near some of them too which was helpful. If you really don't feel you belong in a group, though, or if they aren't willing to make things accessible or blame you for not getting things done when it's an accessibility issue, then perhaps the group just isn't a good fit for you. I'm sure you will find groups that are more accepting and will make better use of your talents. Best, Arielle On 4/6/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations > on campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my > situation now. > > Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community > service fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of > my freshman year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt > the chapter was run in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people > always did everything and never let those of us who were on the > outside do much. The elections seemed more like a popularity contest, > with really personal digs made by current exec board members against > candidates who they did not want to see in future exec board > positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an outsider, a > member just watching and casting my votes, it left a bitter taste in > my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't want to be > a part of the organization. > > That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot > better. This one is a professional organization more geared towards > my major. It is smaller, and still does service, which I like. > However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. > One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication > and access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work > fine for the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they > do not work for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information > that was posted online, or when I don't know to do something because I > can't see it, people are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather > than thinking, "Oh, I wonder if she didn't see it." > > This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I > am a bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job > very well if I know what is expected of me and have the accessibility > to do it. However, with the google docs system, and the lack of > communication I receive from my sisters about visual things they just > pick up on naturally, I am unable to contribute in the way I want to. > > I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. > We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was > not elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted > the recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this > year have made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these > responsibilities to my sisters, when they really don't know my > situation and never asked. I specifically chose to run for recording > secretary because I have particular experience with this position, and > I also know that the minutes are taken in Word Docs and member > standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would have run into no > technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would have been > great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and musical > ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I > have gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten > in my way. > > I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the > chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be > best friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to > me, which isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. > They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I > say something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even > when we're sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter > issue; the people this happens with also don't really socialize with > me in classes, and I'm one of those awkward people who gets along more > with people who are older and younger than her than with students in > my year. > > I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at > all, but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through > these issues. > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 7 01:12:16 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 21:12:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com><02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net><7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net><533E822B.4080904@comcast.net><81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140404093050.020e34c0@comcast.net><3D7BBF84-AC2A-4353-9B55-B6A9056DFBB5@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140404144732.01f38840@comcast.net> Message-ID: <417961956A924136A5EA0112C00E8F54@OwnerPC> hi, I think it should be an interest group first; have a gathering at convention and see if there's sufficient interest. Then following year if it goes well, you elect officers. From discussing, it appears you all want a support group and social group to gain understanding about your mental challenges. This is more indicative now of a interest group. remember, a division is serious; it has to not only have a constitution, but a slate of officers. I urge you to start with interest group, rather than jumping in with a division. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 5:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness Beth, I totally agree! That sounds like a really good basis for the group. Ashley also brings up a great point. Autism is not technically a mental illness, however I think that this group's purpose should be more to advocate for the needs of blind people with other disabilities or disorders, so it could certainly be beneficial to invite people with autism to join and to have you speak at some point. Great idea! The question is, how should this start? Should it be a group first, and then try to go to division status later on if things go well for a while? On 4/4/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Hi, Ashley, > > Might you simply call me in Berkeley, California at > 408-209-3239? Your number is too complicated! > for today, CarAt 09:43 AM 4/4/2014, you wrote: >>i am autistic, and have thought about giving tahlks about being >>blind and autistic, and how to deal with my communication needs. >> >>AUTISM IS NOT A DISEASE! I AM AN AUTISM ADVOCATE, WRITER, AND >>SPEAKER. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE, OR WANT ME TO COME SPEAK, >>CALL ME AT 711,443,682,8862 OR LEAVE ME A MEOR TEXT ME AT 410,417,6676. >> >> > On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:39, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> > >> > Good morning, Kaiti, >> > >> > Guess I failed to consider how supporting blind people with >> mental illness and as in my case, brain damage, is separate from >> those kind of blind people speaking for themselves. >> > Would be interested as to whether such a group ever gets off the >> > ground! >> > for today, Car >> > >> > those who wish to support >> >> others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student >> >> divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are >> >> concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support >> >> is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which >> >> state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily >> >> in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has >> >> students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary, >> >> and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student >> >> at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational >> >> experience better for us. >> >> >> >> This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation >> >> as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and >> >> contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not >> >> directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because >> >> I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my >> >> line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and >> >> have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this >> >> list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though >> >> admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have >> >> identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just >> >> know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to >> >> be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have >> >> a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I >> >> definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The >> >> president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed >> >> with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must >> >> be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the >> >> division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested >> >> in giving support to join. >> >> >> >> Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that >> >> emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside >> >> member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the >> >> situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the >> >> members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness, >> >> but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with >> >> the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but >> >> since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division >> >> a few months ago, where several members were offended because they >> >> interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help >> >> from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be >> >> helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from >> >> having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not >> >> just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about. >> >> >> >> On 4/4/14, Darian wrote: >> >> > But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for >> someone who >> >> > cannot speak for themselves? >> >> > The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one >> can hope to be >> >> > in another person's best interest. >> >> > I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time >> and it will >> >> > not be the last time. >> >> > >> >> > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >> >> > >> >> >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of >> >> >> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does >> not make me >> >> >> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those >> >> >> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for >> >> >> themselves >> >> >> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of >> people like me, >> >> >> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are >> >> >> not >> >> >> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by >> >> >> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in >> point, a guy >> >> >> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the >> prodromal symtpoms, >> >> >> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer >> speaks, rather >> >> >> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he >> >> >> couldn't >> >> >> even speak for himself, much less others. >> >> >> Beth >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >>> Good evening, Kaiti, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called >> >> >>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the >> >> >>> Federation >> >> >>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable >> >> >>> of >> >> >>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? >> >> >>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> >> >>>> I think a good thing might look something like this: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of >> >> >>>> some >> >> >>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally >> >> >>>> ill >> >> >>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, >> I am going >> >> >>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with >> clients who have >> >> >>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support >> >> >>>> such >> >> >>>> a >> >> >>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own >> >> >>>> might >> >> >>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a >> >> >>>> little >> >> >>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be >> >> >>>> able >> >> >>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as >> >> >>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our >> >> >>>> constitution >> >> >>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to >> >> >>>> be >> >> >>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a >> >> >>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as >> >> >>>> long >> >> >>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are >> free to join >> >> >>>> and aid in the cause. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >>>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle >> >> >>>> > illness! >> >> >>>> > for today, Car >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >> >>>> >>Hi Ariel, >> >> >>>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer >> >> >>>> >> support. >> >> >>>> >> Which >> >> >>>> >> is >> >> >>>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days. >> >> >>>> >> Sam >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >>-----Original Message----- >> >> >>>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Arielle >> >> >>>> >>Silverman >> >> >>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM >> >> >>>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> >>>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human >> services division >> >> >>>> >> could >> >> >>>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or >> division that >> >> >>>> >> is >> >> >>>> >> led >> >> >>>> >>by blind people with mental illness. >> >> >>>> >>Arielle >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > Hi everyone, >> >> >>>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one >> >> >>>> >> > hundred >> >> >>>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between >> >> >>>> >> > support/ >> >> >>>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other >> disabilities >> >> >>>> >> > along >> >> >>>> >>with blindness. >> >> >>>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and >> >> >>>> >> > mental >> >> >>>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about >> >> >>>> >> > therapists >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental >> illnessor how >> >> >>>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not >> understanding how >> >> >>>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's >> own getting a >> >> >>>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services >> >> >>>> >> > don't >> >> >>>> >> > allow >> >> >>>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal. >> >> >>>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list >> >> >>>> >> > called >> >> >>>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it >> since May and it >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each >> other day to >> >> >>>> >> > day >> >> >>>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources >> >> >>>> >> > if >> >> >>>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship. >> >> >>>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only >> psychiatric >> >> >>>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. >> Does anyone know >> >> >>>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online >> >> >>>> >> > everywhere >> >> >>>> >> > for a >> >> >>>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > program >> >> >>>> >> > and how they do things. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sam >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Beth >> >> >>>> >> > Taurasi >> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >> >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the >> >> >>>> >> > thing >> >> >>>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get >> guardianship because >> >> >>>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated >> suicide because >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >>guardianship. >> >> >>>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off >> MySpace, but they >> >> >>>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to >> >> >>>> >> > get >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > case >> >> >>>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > affects >> >> >>>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my >> relationship >> >> >>>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet >> >> >>>> >> > deep >> >> >>>> >> > down, >> >> >>>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to >> >> >>>> >> > Denver. >> >> >>>> >> > But >> >> >>>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To >> say that such >> >> >>>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 >> >> >>>> >> > "unpersons" >> >> >>>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be >> complicated, and >> >> >>>> >> > if >> >> >>>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh. >> >> >>>> >> > Beth >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton > >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include >> >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Hello all, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections >> between the blind, >> >> >>>> >> > (we >> >> >>>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this >> conversation), >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other >> disabilities >> >> >>>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like >> the NFB is a >> >> >>>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst >> >> >>>> >> > for >> >> >>>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other >> groups are the >> >> >>>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, >> >> >>>> >> > persay, >> >> >>>> >> > then >> >> >>>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming >> >> >>>> >> > relationships >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the >> >> >>>> >> > various >> >> >>>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might >> have phrased >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree >> >> >>>> >> > described, >> >> >>>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. >> Especially since, as >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups >> >> >>>> >> > like >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together >> and discuss >> >> >>>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their >> discussion >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the >> >> >>>> >> > cars >> >> >>>> >> > rather >> >> >>>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for >> >> >>>> >> > blind >> >> >>>> >> > people >> >> >>>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not >> okay? To me, >> >> >>>> >> > that just doesn't make sense. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would >> label myself as >> >> >>>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to >> >> >>>> >> > label >> >> >>>> >> > myself >> >> >>>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that >> >> >>>> >> > nature >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, >> >> >>>> >> > conservatives >> >> >>>> >> > aren't >> >> >>>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is >> >> >>>> >> > important >> >> >>>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the >> >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >> >>>> >> > had >> >> >>>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > this >> >> >>>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of >> >> >>>> >> > convention? >> >> >>>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or >> anything else? I >> >> >>>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun >> >> >>>> >> > double >> >> >>>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are >> different from us >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > suit >> >> >>>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem >> >> >>>> >> > right. >> >> >>>> >> > Sorry for the rant. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that >> >> >>>> >> > will >> >> >>>> >> > never >> >> >>>> >> > happen again. >> >> >>>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > then >> >> >>>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it >> going. IMO >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the >> >> >>>> >> > spotlight >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > be the darling of >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > chapters and >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and >> >> >>>> >> > wondering >> >> >>>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could >> >> >>>> >> > give >> >> >>>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person. >> >> >>>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who >> were born and >> >> >>>> >> > grew up in >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day. >> >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes >> >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people >> >> >>>> >> > withmultipledisabilities? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't >> >> >>>> >> > able >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, >> especially >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to >> see something >> >> >>>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I >> >> >>>> >> > completely >> >> >>>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division >> >> >>>> >> > for >> >> >>>> >> > every >> >> >>>> >>special interest. >> >> >>>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > then >> >> >>>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal >> >> >>>> >> > meet-ups. >> >> >>>> >> > We >> >> >>>> >> > can't >> >> >>>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically >> >> >>>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > general >> >> >>>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been >> polled about >> >> >>>> >> > whether >> >> >>>> >>to keep having these religious invocations? >> >> >>>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > reflects >> >> >>>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political >> views alone, >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > formed >> >> >>>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful >> enough to justify >> >> >>>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed >> out, a well-run >> >> >>>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the >> >> >>>> >> > hassle >> >> >>>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least >> some of the >> >> >>>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy >> with just a >> >> >>>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers >> >> >>>> >> > list. >> >> >>>> >> > But the >> >> >>>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. >> However this is >> >> >>>> >> > not >> >> >>>> >> > occurring. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of >> blindness. Yet, we are a >> >> >>>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to >> >> >>>> >> > become >> >> >>>> >> > more >> >> >>>> >> > diverse. I also >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > if >> >> >>>> >> > they have >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do >> >> >>>> >> > anything >> >> >>>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group >> >> >>>> >> > came >> >> >>>> >> > together >> >> >>>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and >> >> >>>> >> > transgendered >> >> >>>> >>people. >> >> >>>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the >> >> >>>> >> > announcement and >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many >> >> >>>> >> > people >> >> >>>> >> > left >> >> >>>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly >> >> >>>> >> > for >> >> >>>> >> > social >> >> >>>> >> > purposes. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring >> >> >>>> >> > many >> >> >>>> >> > more >> >> >>>> >> > changes >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going >> to wait and >> >> >>>> >> > see >> >> >>>> >> > what happens. >> >> >>>> >> > Have a blessed day. >> >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes >> >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" > >> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with >> >> >>>> >> > multipledisabilities? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Hi all, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an >> important issue >> >> >>>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more >> blind folks >> >> >>>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several >> reasons, the number >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to >> >> >>>> >> > increase, >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional >> >> >>>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in >> advocacy is >> >> >>>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the >> >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >> >>>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > people >> >> >>>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > an >> >> >>>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the >> >> >>>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's >> particularly true >> >> >>>> >> > when >> >> >>>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual >> disabilities and >> >> >>>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to >> >> >>>> >> > be >> >> >>>> >> > highly >> >> >>>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent >> >> >>>> >> > effort >> >> >>>> >> > from >> >> >>>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual >> >> >>>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions >> >> >>>> >> > can >> >> >>>> >> > feel >> >> >>>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble >> holding down >> >> >>>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and >> downs of mental >> >> >>>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly >> creative and >> >> >>>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are >> getting lost. >> >> >>>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people >> with multiple >> >> >>>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting >> >> >>>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been >> >> >>>> >> > able >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > help >> >> >>>> >>them with. >> >> >>>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, >> >> >>>> >> > just >> >> >>>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more >> >> >>>> >> > divisions >> >> >>>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other >> conditions. There is >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great >> things about >> >> >>>> >> > its >> >> >>>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind >> >> >>>> >> > wheelchair >> >> >>>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to >> discuss with each >> >> >>>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been >> >> >>>> >> > formed. >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with >> mental health >> >> >>>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and >> >> >>>> >> > there >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such >> >> >>>> >> > divisions >> >> >>>> >> > don't >> >> >>>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if >> >> >>>> >> > there >> >> >>>> >> > just >> >> >>>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. >> >> >>>> >> > But I >> >> >>>> >> > think >> >> >>>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional >> >> >>>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the >> organization, >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and >> >> >>>> >> > education >> >> >>>> >> > about >> >> >>>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB >> >> >>>> >> > as a >> >> >>>> >> > whole >> >> >>>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I >> >> >>>> >> > would >> >> >>>> >> > be >> >> >>>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is >> >> >>>> >> > something >> >> >>>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership >> positions in >> >> >>>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the >> >> >>>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > going >> >> >>>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Best, >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > Joe and others, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human >> beings and >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one >> >> >>>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of >> right or wrong >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while >> back now on an >> >> >>>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise >> more funds than >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB >> >> >>>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When >> you look at >> >> >>>> >> > our >> >> >>>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare >> legislative successes >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that >> legislative successes >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely >> >> >>>> >> > agree >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >> ACB has made >> >> >>>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I >> >> >>>> >> > feel >> >> >>>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved >> >> >>>> >> > by >> >> >>>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for >> example. There >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that >> >> >>>> >> > will >> >> >>>> >> > force >> >> >>>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to >> believe this >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for >> >> >>>> >> > us, >> >> >>>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself. >> >> >>>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to >> understand >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting >> >> >>>> >> > information >> >> >>>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being >> >> >>>> >> > able >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people >> >> >>>> >> > can >> >> >>>> >> > do >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > at some point. >> >> >>>> >> > However, I >> >> >>>> >> > got >> >> >>>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting >> >> >>>> >> > information >> >> >>>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant >> portion of our >> >> >>>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it >> was something >> >> >>>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when >> I held up a >> >> >>>> >> > KNFB >> >> >>>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a >> national convention >> >> >>>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have >> it start to read >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand >> kids who have >> >> >>>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our >> >> >>>> >> > efforts. >> >> >>>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for >> >> >>>> >> > blind >> >> >>>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the >> technology field. We >> >> >>>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and >> >> >>>> >> > much >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > this >> >> >>>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know >> >> >>>> >> > all >> >> >>>> >> > this. >> >> >>>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and >> >> >>>> >> > perspectives. >> >> >>>> >> > We >> >> >>>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will >> >> >>>> >> > make a >> >> >>>> >> > difference. >> >> >>>> >> > Frankly, >> >> >>>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from >> what doesn't >> >> >>>> >> > work >> >> >>>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make >> a mistake you >> >> >>>> >> > can >> >> >>>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >> >> >>>> >> > thousand >> >> >>>> >> > kids >> >> >>>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we >> did with the >> >> >>>> >> > KNFB >> >> >>>> >>reader? >> >> >>>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might >> we ever see >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret >> >> >>>> >> > software >> >> >>>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > educate every person who writes >> >> >>>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might >> >> >>>> >> > be >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > way >> >> >>>> >> > for us >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars >> >> >>>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > at >> >> >>>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't >> >> >>>> >> > really >> >> >>>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >> >> >>>> >> > roots >> >> >>>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have >> had any affect >> >> >>>> >> > on >> >> >>>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time >> >> >>>> >> > for >> >> >>>> >> > that. >> >> >>>> >> > But it also means that we change. >> >> >>>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to >> >> >>>> >> > change. >> >> >>>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the >> >> >>>> >> > challenges >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that >> >> >>>> >> > way, >> >> >>>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as >> individuals and >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > an organization. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of >> >> >>>> >> > our >> >> >>>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the >> >> >>>> >> > marketing >> >> >>>> >> > does >> >> >>>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to >> draw conclusions >> >> >>>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking >> employment as >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND >> >> >>>> >> > Incorporated >> >> >>>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other >> centers. Some of the >> >> >>>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you >> >> >>>> >> > have >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > have >> >> >>>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just >> >> >>>> >> > one >> >> >>>> >> > tool. >> >> >>>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through >> >> >>>> >> > training. >> >> >>>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. >> >> >>>> >> > Legislating >> >> >>>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot >> >> >>>> >> > discriminate >> >> >>>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it >> >> >>>> >> > won't >> >> >>>> >> > matter >> >> >>>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even >> >> >>>> >> > training >> >> >>>> >> > won't >> >> >>>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic >> >> >>>> >> > education. >> >> >>>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > problem >> >> >>>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You >> >> >>>> >> > can't >> >> >>>> >> > pick >> >> >>>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success >> by itself, >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing >> on its own. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > impact >> >> >>>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget >> than we were. >> >> >>>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand >> >> >>>> >> > where >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > can >> >> >>>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > need >> >> >>>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't >> >> >>>> >> > see >> >> >>>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of >> this organization. >> >> >>>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our >> understanding of >> >> >>>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is >> what has set >> >> >>>> >> > us >> >> >>>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that >> >> >>>> >> > branching >> >> >>>> >> > out >> >> >>>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We >> >> >>>> >> > need >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Best regards, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Steve Jacobson >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle, >> >> >>>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive >> >> >>>> >> > response. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Joe, >> >> >>>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these >> >> >>>> >> > observations >> >> >>>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while >> I deeply respect >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the >> raw potential the >> >> >>>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined >> with back in >> >> >>>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think >> >> >>>> >> > this >> >> >>>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately >> >> >>>> >> > needs >> >> >>>> >> > members >> >> >>>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and >> who are willing >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >> no-nonsense way that >> >> >>>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when >> those of us >> >> >>>> >> > less >> >> >>>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with >> political power >> >> >>>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national >> level, and more >> >> >>>> >> > still within our local chapters. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Hi Joe, >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been >> >> >>>> >> > following >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you >> >> >>>> >> > are >> >> >>>> >> > saying >> >> >>>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >> >> >>>> >> > felt >> >> >>>> >> > like >> >> >>>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > all >> >> >>>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of >> >> >>>> >> > banquet >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up >> >> >>>> >> > with >> >> >>>> >> > prize >> >> >>>> >> > drawings and the like. >> >> >>>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined >> >> >>>> >> > than >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > is >> >> >>>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have >> been cut due >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady >> reliable income >> >> >>>> >>sources. >> >> >>>> >> > So >> >> >>>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >> alternative could be >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > loss of programs and resources. >> >> >>>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned >> away or refused >> >> >>>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is >> >> >>>> >> > truly >> >> >>>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective >> members choose not >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization >> >> >>>> >> > or >> >> >>>> >> > judgment >> >> >>>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >> >> >>>> >> > perception >> >> >>>> >> > only, >> >> >>>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a >> >> >>>> >> > radical >> >> >>>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >> expecting to find >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. >> However, there >> >> >>>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain >> segments of >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > am >> >> >>>> >> > not >> >> >>>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively >> unskilled when I >> >> >>>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. >> But I know not >> >> >>>> >> > all >> >> >>>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective >> members who have >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or >> >> >>>> >> > division >> >> >>>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. >> >> >>>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be >> sensitive to >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > the organization. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Arielle >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >> >> >>>> >> > wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > Hello all. >> >> >>>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live >> >> >>>> >> > my >> >> >>>> >> > own >> >> >>>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe >> in a one size >> >> >>>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB >> >> >>>> >> > does. >> >> >>>> >> > Thanks. >> >> >>>> >> > Mike >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur >> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> >> >>>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind >> >> >>>> >> > Students >> >> >>>> >> > mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, >> and Seminary >> >> >>>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been >> nice to have a >> >> >>>> >>mentoor. >> >> >>>> >> > RJ >> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>> >> > From: "Joe" > >> >>>> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> >>>> >> > > >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. >> >> >>>> >> > While >> >> >>>> >> > there >> >> >>>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt >> glad to be >> >> >>>> >> > in >> >> >>>> >> > the company >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges >> that awaited me >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished >> up my summer >> >> >>>> >> > as >> >> >>>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >> business with >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm >> >> >>>> >> > from >> >> >>>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very >> >> >>>> >> > well-suited >> >> >>>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people >> >> >>>> >> > fall >> >> >>>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those >> >> >>>> >> > infrequent >> >> >>>> >>gatherings. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >> >> >>>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, >> and in turn >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > rather >> >> >>>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >> >> >>>> >> > into >> >> >>>> >> > listen >> >> >>>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >> for this fund >> >> >>>> >> > or >> >> >>>> >> > that >> >> >>>> >>effort. >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > found >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >> >> >>>> >> > monthly >> >> >>>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just >> to the focus >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but >> >> >>>> >> > perhaps >> >> >>>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >> >> >>>> >> > e-mails >> >> >>>> >> > from >> >> >>>> >> > so-called friends from whom >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to >> contribute to their >> >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >> >>>> >> > fundraising campaigns. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and >> >> >>>> >> > forgot >> >> >>>> >> > about >> >> >>>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >> >> >>>> >> > development >> >> >>>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >> field, also >> >> >>>> >> > national in scope. >> >> >>>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never >> felt like the >> >> >>>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus >> >> >>>> >> > on >> >> >>>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >> >> >>>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent >> >> >>>> >> > blind >> >> >>>> >> > professionals. >> >> >>>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter >> >> >>>> >> > than >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > ever >> >> >>>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >> >> >>>> >> > but >> >> >>>> >> > they >> >> >>>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or >> >> >>>> >> > because >> >> >>>> >> > they >> >> >>>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I >> >> >>>> >> > should >> >> >>>> >> > have >> >> >>>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > organization. I had too much of >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I >> was reliable >> >> >>>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done >> should have >> >> >>>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women >> >> >>>> >> > who >> >> >>>> >> > could >> >> >>>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new >> ideas, and most >> >> >>>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some >> >> >>>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > sustaining. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original >> >> >>>> >> > post? >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > don't >> >> >>>> >> > want >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > it >> >> >>>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as >> >> >>>> >> > well >> >> >>>> >> > know >> >> >>>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the >> college kids on >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the >> >> >>>> >> > NFB >> >> >>>> >> > banner >> >> >>>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing >> >> >>>> >> > ploys >> >> >>>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and >> talents that will >> >> >>>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything >> >> >>>> >> > new. >> >> >>>> >> > The >> >> >>>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB >> president, >> >> >>>> >> > and >> >> >>>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is >> brave enough to >> >> >>>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > world >> >> >>>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >> >> >>>> >> > Technology >> >> >>>> >> > has >> >> >>>> >> > seen >> >> >>>> >>to that. >> >> >>>> >> > Whether >> >> >>>> >> > or >> >> >>>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly >> >> >>>> >> > we >> >> >>>> >> > want >> >> >>>> >> > it to exist. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you >> >> >>>> >> > know >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >> >> >>>> >> > house? >> >> >>>> >> > They >> >> >>>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >> figure out in >> >> >>>> >> > our >> >> >>>> >>camp. >> >> >>>> >> > The >> >> >>>> >> > few >> >> >>>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less >> money. Let that be >> >> >>>> >> > a >> >> >>>> >> > lesson in financial management to you. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told >> >> >>>> >> > myself I >> >> >>>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. >> >> >>>> >> > My >> >> >>>> >> > only >> >> >>>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new >> generation >> >> >>>> >> > of >> >> >>>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you >> >> >>>> >> > never >> >> >>>> >> > taste >> >> >>>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like >> >> >>>> >> > the >> >> >>>> >> > teacher >> >> >>>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe >> it or not, >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it >> is you want >> >> >>>> >> > to >> >> >>>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to >> myself here lest >> >> >>>> >> > I >> >> >>>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >> >> >>>> >> > attempt >> >> >>>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are >> humility to >> >> >>>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn >> >> >>>> >> > away >> >> >>>> >> > what >> >> >>>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Joe >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -- >> >> >>>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Visit my blog: >> >> >>>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l 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In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sarah, Well you have met a good milestone in being accepted to a counseling program. Will you be a clinical counselor or what? That is some accompolishment! Regarding training, could you get itenernant training now? For instance get someone from a lighthouse for the blind to meet with you once a week? Its not nfb style, but maybe this will help. I, too, fear rehab will say likewise to me. Other than my O&M skills wich suck due to spatial challenges, my situation is similar in some respects. I have an undergrad degree. I cannot decide whether to go to training or a job. Rehab will likely tell me I'm well adjusted too. Like you, I have decent technology skills and braille skills. I cannot cook much though and lack confidence in housekeeping. I'd pick another center than nfb style, but that's me, I already tried our state center. But yeah, I know what you mean about out of state training. I have some suggestions: 1. go to training for the full program after grad school. 2. Go to the summer programs only. 3. You might be able to start your grad program and take off the fall semester one year. Between summer and fall, this gives you six months at the center. Talk to your advisers; maybe they can hold your place after a semester for you to return. 4. Go to the center for less than the full program; you will benefit, but will not get a certificate or freedom bell. As for the justification, I'm sure your state nfb leaders can assist and Arielle here. She had decent skills, yet went to a center to improve. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Meyer Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:03 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School and Training Center? Hi all, I wanted to share an update about my academic/professional life and ask for some input. I was recently accepted into Ball State University's Dual Master's Degree program in Counseling Psychology (Clinical Mental Health track) and Social Psychology and am planning to begin coursework in August. At the same time, I have had an ongoing desire to attend one of the NFB training centers but have never found the "right" time to do this. I attended the Student Seminar hosted by the Midwestern Associations of Blind Students this weekend, which made me realize that I really should probably just "make the time" for a training center, but I'm still not sure about the best timing and the steps to take. I am concerned that VR won't allow me to attend a Center because they may think I don't really need such intense training. I have good O&M skills and manage well with Braille and assistive technology; I have also been working as an Independent Living Advocate at a Center for Independent Living, which has included teaching independent living skills to people with various disabilities. VR (and others) may say that I am already well-adjusted and that I function very well and independently. I know I have sufficient skills to get by but also know I really struggle with confidence and that there are still many areas where I need to grow to become even more efficient and independent. I could really use some guidance to help me decide if I should make the time for a Training Center and if so, when and how to go about doing so. I don't want to lose my spot in my Graduate program because I really believe it is an amazing fit for me and I have been so excited to further my education and to move forward in the field of counseling and possibly research and teaching. Has anyone had a similar experience? Has anyone ever deferred acceptance to an academic program? Thanks so much for any thoughts/suggestions, Sarah -- Sarah K. Meyer NFB of Indy - Community Outreach, Advocacy, and Legislation (COAL), Chair IndyGo/IPTC Mobility Advisory Committee (MAC), Member (317) 402-6632 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Mon Apr 7 01:26:55 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 19:26:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness In-Reply-To: <417961956A924136A5EA0112C00E8F54@OwnerPC> References: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com><02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140403053519.020259b8@comcast.net><7.0.1.0.2.20140403232816.020568f8@comcast.net><533E822B.4080904@comcast.net><81C138FF-E41A-4085-B932-84D8A2899CD5@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140404093050.020e34c0@comcast.net><3D7BBF84-AC2A-4353-9B55-B6A9056DFBB5@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140404144732.01f38840@comcast.net> <417961956A924136A5EA0112C00E8F54@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5341FEDF.9050104@comcast.net> I would want a special interest group, but we need to be labeled a division in order for us to be taken more seriously. The NFB hasn't taken such eople seriously at all, so it's time we did something about it. Yeah, it's not jumping in to a division, but we need to have some serious notice in all the disability special interest group, and the politics of the NFB do not include us at all. Beth On 4/6/2014 7:12 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > hi, I think it should be an interest group first; have a gathering at > convention and see if there's sufficient interest. Then following > year if it goes well, you elect officers. From discussing, it appears > you all want a support group and social group to gain understanding > about your mental challenges. This is more indicative now of a > interest group. remember, a division is serious; it has to not only > have a constitution, but a slate of officers. I urge you to start > with interest group, rather than jumping in with a division. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April > 06, 2014 5:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include > peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness > > Beth, > > I totally agree! That sounds like a really good basis for the > group. > > Ashley also brings up a great point. Autism is not technically a > mental illness, however I think that this group's purpose should be > more to advocate for the needs of blind people with other > disabilities or disorders, so it could certainly be beneficial to > invite people with autism to join and to have you speak at some > point. Great idea! > > The question is, how should this start? Should it be a group first, > and then try to go to division status later on if things go well for > a while? > > On 4/4/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> Hi, Ashley, >> >> Might you simply call me in Berkeley, California at 408-209-3239? >> Your number is too complicated! for today, CarAt 09:43 AM 4/4/2014, >> you wrote: >>> i am autistic, and have thought about giving tahlks about being >>> blind and autistic, and how to deal with my communication needs. >>> >>> AUTISM IS NOT A DISEASE! I AM AN AUTISM ADVOCATE, WRITER, AND >>> SPEAKER. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE, OR WANT ME TO COME >>> SPEAK, CALL ME AT 711,443,682,8862 OR LEAVE ME A MEOR TEXT ME AT >>> 410,417,6676. >>> >>>> On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:39, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good morning, Kaiti, >>>> >>>> Guess I failed to consider how supporting blind people with >>> mental illness and as in my case, brain damage, is separate from >>> those kind of blind people speaking for themselves. >>>> Would be interested as to whether such a group ever gets off >>>> the ground! for today, Car >>>> >>>> those who wish to support >>>>> others with mental illness, and gave the example of how >>>>> student divisions also welcome those who are not students but >>>>> who are concerned with the education of blind people who are, >>>>> because support is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, >>>>> there are mandates which state blind students who are >>>>> full-time need to be leaders, primarily in presidential and >>>>> vice presidential positions. Case: My board has students as >>>>> president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary, >>>>> and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not >>>>> a student at the time, but still supports the work we do to >>>>> make the educational experience better for us. >>>>> >>>>> This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the >>>>> federation as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be >>>>> helpful and contribute to the group to be shut out simply >>>>> because they were not directly effected by mental illness. I >>>>> also did not say that because I think the mentally ill need >>>>> someone else to speak for them; in my line of work I'm in >>>>> contact with those who have mental illness, and have also >>>>> seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this >>>>> list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, >>>>> though admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people >>>>> who have identified a need, and are working towards finding a >>>>> solution. I just know personally that I support them in >>>>> their cause, and would like to be included in making it >>>>> happen in spite of the fact that I don't have a mental >>>>> illness myself because I do see it as important. I >>>>> definitely think that following a model along the lines of, >>>>> "The president and vice president of the division must have >>>>> been diagnosed with a mental illness," and "A majority of the >>>>> division's members must be blind persons diagnosed with >>>>> mental illness," would serve the division well, and would >>>>> also allow for those who are just interested in giving >>>>> support to join. >>>>> >>>>> Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event >>>>> that emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, >>>>> an outside member who is in a mental health profession could >>>>> help to diffuse the situation and restore order. This still >>>>> would not be speaking for the members of the division who are >>>>> directly effected by mental illness, but it would help them >>>>> to take a step back and prepare to go on with the meeting. I >>>>> do not even know if such a thing could happen, but since we >>>>> had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division >>>>> a few months ago, where several members were offended because >>>>> they interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and >>>>> we needed help from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse >>>>> the situation, it might be helpful. Personally, I think >>>>> every group of people can benefit from having contact with an >>>>> outside party to do this as well, so I'm not just suggesting >>>>> it based on the potential group we're talking about. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/4/14, Darian wrote: >>>>>> But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak >>>>>> for >>> someone who >>>>>> cannot speak for themselves? The best that one might be >>>>>> able to do is to act in what one >>> can hope to be >>>>>> in another person's best interest. I could be wrong though. >>>>>> If so, it hasn't been the first time >>> and it will >>>>>> not be the last time. >>>>>> >>>>>> This electronic message has been brought to you by my >>>>>> mobile device. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always >>>>>>> capable of speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that >>>>>>> my illness does >>> not make me >>>>>>> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics >>>>>>> and those affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who >>>>>>> can't speak for themselves because they can't relate. >>>>>>> Some people need the voices of >>> people like me, >>>>>>> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill >>>>>>> people are not really ill. Some of the mentally ill are >>>>>>> so badly damaged by schizophrenic symptoms that they >>>>>>> can't even speak. Case in >>> point, a guy >>>>>>> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the >>> prodromal symtpoms, >>>>>>> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no >>>>>>> longer >>> speaks, rather >>>>>>> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was >>>>>>> alive, he couldn't even speak for himself, much less >>>>>>> others. Beth >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: Good >>>>>>>> evening, Kaiti, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the >>>>>>>> so-called mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't >>>>>>>> that how the Federation likes to be perceived? That, >>>>>>>> "blind" people are perfectly capable of speaking for >>>>>>>> themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill? >>>>>>>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>>>> I think a good thing might look something like this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental >>>>>>>>> illness of some sort, but also open for those >>>>>>>>> interested in work with mentally ill people. Even >>>>>>>>> though I do not have a mental illness myself, >>> I am going >>>>>>>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work >>>>>>>>> with >>> clients who have >>>>>>>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to >>>>>>>>> support >> >>>> such a group, and think that others >>>>>>>>> in situations similar to my own might want to do the >>>>>>>>> same. Plus, this follows the division model a >>>>>>>>> little more closely. More people than those directly >>>>>>>>> effected would be able to join, but someone who is >>>>>>>>> directly effected would serve as president. I know >>>>>>>>> in my affiliate student division, our constitution >>>>>>>>> states that the president and vice president must be >>>>>>>>> planning to be full-time students in the year >>>>>>>>> following their election, and a majority of the >>>>>>>>> division members must be blind students, but as long >>>>>>>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students >>>>>>>>> are >>> free to join >>>>>>>>> and aid in the cause. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Good morning, Sam, and everyone, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A must! Hot line workers must themselves have >>>>>>>>>> mentle illness! for today, Car >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ariel, I agree. I love the hotline idea! It >>>>>>>>>>> would be true peer support. Which is such a big >>>>>>>>>>> thing in mental illness recovery these days. Sam >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>> Of Arielle >>>>>>>>>>> Silverman Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 >>>>>>>>>>> PM To: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>>> mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB >>>>>>>>>>> better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities >>>>>>>>>>> mental illness >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think the hotline idea is a great one. The >>>>>>>>>>> human >>> services division >>>>>>>>>>> could work on that, but it would be great to have >>>>>>>>>>> a group or >>> division that >>>>>>>>>>> is led by blind people with mental illness. >>>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone, I'm not very much into the NFB in >>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of ways but one hundred percent agree >>>>>>>>>>>> that there needs to be more connection between >>>>>>>>>>>> support/ services for the blind and for those >>>>>>>>>>>> that have other >>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>> along >>>>>>>>>>> with blindness. >>>>>>>>>>>> Personally I've seen this disconnect with >>>>>>>>>>>> blindness and mental illness. I agree with >>>>>>>>>>>> everything Desiree said about therapists and >>>>>>>>>>>> them not understanding how blindness impacts >>>>>>>>>>>> mental >>> illnessor how >>>>>>>>>>>> mental illness might affect blindness. I've >>>>>>>>>>>> also seen a lot of misunderstanding with >>>>>>>>>>>> blindness profesionals not >>> understanding how >>>>>>>>>>>> mental illness might interfere with living on >>>>>>>>>>>> one's >>> own getting a >>>>>>>>>>>> standard full time job ETC and so their scope >>>>>>>>>>>> of services don't allow for anything outside >>>>>>>>>>>> what they perceive to be normal. I do want to >>>>>>>>>>>> give a shout out that I run an e-mail list >>>>>>>>>>>> called blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been >>>>>>>>>>>> running it >>> since May and it >>>>>>>>>>>> is a very close knit community and we all >>>>>>>>>>>> support each >>> other day to >>>>>>>>>>>> day with these struggles, providing >>>>>>>>>>>> encouragement and resources if possible and >>>>>>>>>>>> most of all just our friendship. Lastly I've >>>>>>>>>>>> heard of a center in NY that has the only >>> psychiatric >>>>>>>>>>>> clinic and daytreatment program for the >>>>>>>>>>>> blind. >>> Does anyone know >>>>>>>>>>>> anthing about this program? I've tried looking >>>>>>>>>>>> online everywhere for a contact person as I'd >>>>>>>>>>>> be very curious to know more about the >>>>>>>>>>>> program and how they do things. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sam >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Beth >>>>>>>>>>>> Taurasi Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>>>> mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall >>>>>>>>>>>> under the thing Desiree described, someone >>>>>>>>>>>> whose parents get >>> guardianship because >>>>>>>>>>>> they're sighted and "healthy", I had >>>>>>>>>>>> contemplated >>> suicide because >>>>>>>>>>>> of that >>>>>>>>>>> guardianship. >>>>>>>>>>>> Because of that, my parents tried to take me >>>>>>>>>>>> off >>> MySpace, but they >>>>>>>>>>>> will not take me off Facebook. I am currently >>>>>>>>>>>> working to >> >>>> >> > get a case against them >>>>>>>>>>>> because the guardianship is way too broad, and >>>>>>>>>>>> it affects lots of my man to woman >>>>>>>>>>>> relationships. Currently, my >>> relationship >>>>>>>>>>>> with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is >>>>>>>>>>>> rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop >>>>>>>>>>>> Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But >>>>>>>>>>>> alas, the guardianship prevents us from >>>>>>>>>>>> marrying. To >>> say that such >>>>>>>>>>>> persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of >>>>>>>>>>>> Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to >>>>>>>>>>>> say it in Newspeak would be >>> complicated, and >>>>>>>>>>>> if such a newspeak word was invented, it would >>>>>>>>>>>> sound harsh. Beth >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>>>>> National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>>> 2014 22:30:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How >>>>>>>>>>>> can NFB better include >>>>>>>>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In answer to Carly's question about >>>>>>>>>>>> connections >>> between the blind, >>>>>>>>>>>> (we may call them "just blind" for the purposes >>>>>>>>>>>> of this >>> conversation), >>>>>>>>>>>> and those with blindness and other >>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities, or other >>> disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>> without blindness, I think organizational >>>>>>>>>>>> relationships are the starting point to working >>>>>>>>>>>> interpersonally. Much like >>> the NFB is a >>>>>>>>>>>> huge group of blind people, and is often used >>>>>>>>>>>> as a catalyst for working interpersonally to >>>>>>>>>>>> accomplish tasks, other >>> groups are the >>>>>>>>>>>> same. If we want to work interpersonally with >>>>>>>>>>>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the >>>>>>>>>>>> deaf are and start forming relationships with >>>>>>>>>>>> that group. Once repore is established, people >>>>>>>>>>>> from the various organizations can work >>>>>>>>>>>> interpersonally. Darian might >>> have phrased >>>>>>>>>>>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of >>>>>>>>>>>> view. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode >>>>>>>>>>>> that Desiree described, but I'm really sad to >>>>>>>>>>>> hear that it happened. >>> Especially since, as >>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out >>>>>>>>>>>> there groups like the car one. I mean, it's >>>>>>>>>>>> okay for people to get together >>> and discuss >>>>>>>>>>>> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), >>>>>>>>>>>> so their >>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> is purely based on mechanical and aesthetic >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge of the cars rather than a personal >>>>>>>>>>>> user experience, but a support group for blind >>>>>>>>>>>> people who are seen as a minority for another >>>>>>>>>>>> reason is not >>> okay? To me, >>>>>>>>>>>> that just doesn't make sense. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>> label myself as >>>>>>>>>>>> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if >>>>>>>>>>>> I had to label myself at all, so I realize my >>>>>>>>>>>> personal views on things of that nature are >>>>>>>>>>>> more liberal than the views of others. >>>>>>>>>>>> However, conservatives aren't always going to >>>>>>>>>>>> be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is >>>>>>>>>>>> important that we compromise. I was not under >>>>>>>>>>>> the impression that the NFB had any religious >>>>>>>>>>>> affiliation, and even remember asking someone >>>>>>>>>>>> what Invocation was, because I really didn't >>>>>>>>>>>> know the term. Even in this light, why is >>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity made such a prevalent part of >>>>>>>>>>>> convention? What about those who practice >>>>>>>>>>>> Islam, Judism, or >>> anything else? I >>>>>>>>>>>> would hate for a majority faction within the >>>>>>>>>>>> NFB to shun double minority members, because >>>>>>>>>>>> after all, we're all minorities in the greater >>>>>>>>>>>> world, so to pretend that those who are >>> different from us >>>>>>>>>>>> are less valuable or don't deserve the right to >>>>>>>>>>>> organize a group to suit their unique set of >>>>>>>>>>>> needs or circumstances doesn't seem right. >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the rant. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: Arielle once >>>>>>>>>>>> again. You are so right! I also hope that >>>>>>>>>>>> will never happen again. Another way to look at >>>>>>>>>>>> this is, many devisions get started and then >>>>>>>>>>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will >>>>>>>>>>>> keep it >>> going. IMO >>>>>>>>>>>> the devisions are started by people that have >>>>>>>>>>>> to be in the spotlight and be the darling of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The >>>>>>>>>>>> same happens with chapters and >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking >>>>>>>>>>>> their head and wondering what happened and why >>>>>>>>>>>> this person didn't work out. I could give >>>>>>>>>>>> examples of backing the wrong person. Finally, >>>>>>>>>>>> I always felt badly for those children who >>> were born and >>>>>>>>>>>> grew up in >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on >>>>>>>>>>>> them to be the darling of the federation. Have >>>>>>>>>>>> a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and >>>>>>>>>>>> Pj >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle >>>>>>>>>>>> Silverman" >>>>>>>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2014 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> better include people >>>>>>>>>>>> withmultipledisabilities? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT >>>>>>>>>>>> group wasn't able to announce its meetings. I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> disappointed this happened, >>> especially >>>>>>>>>>>> the symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope >>>>>>>>>>>> never to >>> see something >>>>>>>>>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the >>>>>>>>>>>> Federation. I completely understand the >>>>>>>>>>>> leadership's desire not to have a division for >>>>>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>>>> special interest. >>>>>>>>>>>> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded >>>>>>>>>>>> criteria about what should constitute a >>>>>>>>>>>> division. It doesn't make sense to allow a >>>>>>>>>>>> division for car enthusiasts with its own >>>>>>>>>>>> annual activities and then not even allow an >>>>>>>>>>>> LGBT group to advertise informal >> >>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want >>>>>>>>>>>> LGBT because it's too politically controversial >>>>>>>>>>>> and then have religious invocations at all the >>>>>>>>>>>> general sessions. Has the general membership >>>>>>>>>>>> ever even been >>> polled about >>>>>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>>>> to keep having these religious invocations? >>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, unless we want to be in an >>>>>>>>>>>> organization that reflects the president's or >>>>>>>>>>>> the board's interests and political >>> views alone, >>>>>>>>>>>> we really need to have some transparency about >>>>>>>>>>>> how divisions are formed and what kinds of >>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics are meaningful >>> enough to justify >>>>>>>>>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian >>>>>>>>>>>> pointed >>> out, a well-run >>>>>>>>>>>> group can probably be just as effective without >>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of the hassle associated with keeping up >>>>>>>>>>>> a division. I know at least >>> some of the >>>>>>>>>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally >>>>>>>>>>>> happy >>> with just a >>>>>>>>>>>> group, not a full division, but even that >>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't supported. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: what a good topic. >>>>>>>>>>>> I know that there is a blind rollers list. But >>>>>>>>>>>> the devision never came into being. I think >>>>>>>>>>>> that the committee of the under served is >>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to address these issues. >>> However this is >>>>>>>>>>>> not occurring. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of >>> blindness. Yet, we are a >>>>>>>>>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>> needs to become more diverse. I also >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their >>>>>>>>>>>> assumptions that if they have >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it >>>>>>>>>>>> will not do anything to assist blind people. >>>>>>>>>>>> For example, years ago, a group came together >>>>>>>>>>>> and wanted to form a devision for blind gay >>>>>>>>>>>> bisexual and transgendered >>>>>>>>>>> people. >>>>>>>>>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was >>>>>>>>>>>> reading the announcement and >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading >>>>>>>>>>>> it. Many people left the federation because >>>>>>>>>>>> they felt that they were not wanted and that >>>>>>>>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a >>>>>>>>>>>> devision strictly for social purposes. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president >>>>>>>>>>>> will bring many more changes >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am >>>>>>>>>>>> going >>> to wait and >>>>>>>>>>>> see what happens. Have a blessed day. Best >>>>>>>>>>>> Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle >>>>>>>>>>>> Silverman" >>>>>>>>>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 3:53 PM Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better >>>>>>>>>>>> include people with multipledisabilities? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>> important issue >>>>>>>>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more >>>>>>>>>>>> and more >>> blind folks >>>>>>>>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For >>>>>>>>>>>> several >>> reasons, the number >>>>>>>>>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is >>>>>>>>>>>> likely to increase, and more than that, the >>>>>>>>>>>> number of blind people with additional >>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and >>>>>>>>>>>> involved in >>> advocacy is >>>>>>>>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the >>>>>>>>>>>> most part, the NFB centers do a good job of >>>>>>>>>>>> tailoring training to the needs that people >>>>>>>>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also >>>>>>>>>>>> think that we >> >>>> >> > as an organization >>>>>>>>>>>> have far to go in order to truly appreciate >>>>>>>>>>>> the contributions of all blind people. I think >>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>> particularly true >>>>>>>>>>>> when we think about including people with >>>>>>>>>>>> intellectual >>> disabilities and >>>>>>>>>>>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are >>>>>>>>>>>> stigmatized in general, but especially since >>>>>>>>>>>> our leadership has tended to be highly educated >>>>>>>>>>>> and to stress academic excellence and >>>>>>>>>>>> consistent effort from the leadership, I can >>>>>>>>>>>> see how folks who have intellectual >>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic >>>>>>>>>>>> health conditions can feel left out. I've known >>>>>>>>>>>> some blind folks who had trouble >>> holding down >>>>>>>>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>> downs of mental >>>>>>>>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still >>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly >>> creative and >>>>>>>>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>> getting lost. >>>>>>>>>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, >>>>>>>>>>>> people >>> with multiple >>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties >>>>>>>>>>>> related to getting employment, education, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> that the NFB hasn't really been able to help >>>>>>>>>>> them with. >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all >>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities, just blindness, but I think there >>>>>>>>>>>> is a definite place for more divisions and >>>>>>>>>>>> groups within the NFB that focus on other >>> conditions. There is >>>>>>>>>>>> a deaf-blind division, but I have not heard >>>>>>>>>>>> many great >>> things about >>>>>>>>>>>> its effectiveness. I have heard about efforts >>>>>>>>>>>> to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and >>>>>>>>>>>> it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair >>>>>>>>>>>> users might have unique concerns they'd want >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>> discuss with each >>>>>>>>>>>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has >>>>>>>>>>>> not been formed. I would love to see a division >>>>>>>>>>>> for blind people with >>> mental health >>>>>>>>>>>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our >>>>>>>>>>>> population, and there are probably unique >>>>>>>>>>>> concerns there. I am not sure if such >>>>>>>>>>>> divisions don't exist because the national >>>>>>>>>>>> leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't >>>>>>>>>>>> been enough interest or momentum to get them >>>>>>>>>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could >>>>>>>>>>>> help folks who have additional disabilities >>>>>>>>>>>> obtain leadership positions within the >>> organization, >>>>>>>>>>>> and also to provide a vehicle for collective >>>>>>>>>>>> action and education about issues affecting >>>>>>>>>>>> these groups specifically, even if the NFB as >>>>>>>>>>>> a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope >>>>>>>>>>>> that makes sense. I would be interested in >>>>>>>>>>>> other suggestions from you about how members >>>>>>>>>>>> with multiple disabilities can feel more >>>>>>>>>>>> valued. While there is something to be said for >>>>>>>>>>>> going ahead and running for leadership >>> positions in >>>>>>>>>>>> order to change things, change also needs to >>>>>>>>>>>> come from the organization as a whole if folks >>>>>>>>>>>> with multiple disabilities are going to be >>>>>>>>>>>> elected and welcomed in these positions. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, Arielle >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: Joe and >>>>>>>>>>>> others, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about >>>>>>>>>>>> the NFB that is negative is wrong. >>>>>>>>>>>> Organizations are made up of human >>> beings and >>>>>>>>>>>> we are not perfect so our creations are not >>>>>>>>>>>> likely going >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to be perfect. Still, some of what one person >>>>>>>>>>>> may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of >>> right or wrong >>>>>>>>>>>> as perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >>>>>>>>>>>> while >>> back now on an >>>>>>>>>>>> expansion that has resulted in the need to >>>>>>>>>>>> raise >>> more funds than >>>>>>>>>>>> we used to have to raise. I do not think I am >>>>>>>>>>>> alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that >>>>>>>>>>>> this is a risk. When >>> you look at >>>>>>>>>>>> our budget and that of the ACB and then >>>>>>>>>>>> compare >>> legislative successes >>>>>>>>>>>> as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that >>> legislative successes >>>>>>>>>>>> are not proportional to one's budget. Whether >>>>>>>>>>>> I completely agree with legislation ACB passes >>>>>>>>>>>> or not, I recognize that the >>> ACB has made >>>>>>>>>>>> contributions. However, I have felt for some >>>>>>>>>>>> time and I feel particularly more so now that >>>>>>>>>>>> our problems can't be solved by legislation >>>>>>>>>>>> alone. Let's take accessibility, for >>> example. There >>>>>>>>>>>> is a lot of emphasis on getting more >>>>>>>>>>>> legislation passed that will force software to >>>>>>>>>>>> be accessible, for example. I happen to >>> believe this >>>>>>>>>>>> is necessary, but it isn't going to make >>>>>>>>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the >>>>>>>>>>>> job, all by itself. If we are going to make any >>>>>>>>>>>> serious gains, we need to >>> understand >>>>>>>>>>>> the limits of current technology and explore >>>>>>>>>>>> ways of getting information that is new. I am >>>>>>>>>>>> not one who got all excited about being able >>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car, although I certainly hope that >>>>>>>>>>>> blind people >> >>>> >> > can do that at some >>>>>>>>>>>> point. However, I got very excited about the >>>>>>>>>>>> fact that as a result of looking at the >>>>>>>>>>>> problem, we experimented with a number of ways >>>>>>>>>>>> of getting information that had not been >>>>>>>>>>>> explored before. A significant >>> portion of our >>>>>>>>>>>> budget went into the KNFB reader. At the >>>>>>>>>>>> time, it >>> was something >>>>>>>>>>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving >>>>>>>>>>>> experience when >>> I held up a >>>>>>>>>>>> KNFB reader to the lists of registered people >>>>>>>>>>>> at a >>> national convention >>>>>>>>>>>> that were just hanging from a crossbar and >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>> it start to read >>>>>>>>>>>> the content. There have probably been over a >>>>>>>>>>>> thousand >>> kids who have >>>>>>>>>>>> attended science camps of one kind or another >>>>>>>>>>>> through our efforts. We have been able to >>>>>>>>>>>> sponsor other gatherings as well for blind >>>>>>>>>>>> lawyers, teachers, and major players in the >>> technology field. We >>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or >>>>>>>>>>>> 90's, and >> >>>> >> > much of this would not >>>>>>>>>>>> have been done even now if we hadn't tried >>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything >>>>>>>>>>>> new, you know all this. My point is that a lot >>>>>>>>>>>> of this is about risks and perspectives. We >>>>>>>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these >>>>>>>>>>>> efforts will make a difference. Frankly, I am >>>>>>>>>>>> a believer that one learns almost as much >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>> what doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>> work as one learns from what does, because if >>>>>>>>>>>> you make >>> a mistake you >>>>>>>>>>>> can eliminate or refine that approach. Will >>>>>>>>>>>> some of those thousand kids get into math or >>>>>>>>>>>> science because of what we did? Is the OCR in >>>>>>>>>>>> the new HIMS product a little better because >>>>>>>>>>>> of what we >>> did with the >>>>>>>>>>>> KNFB >>>>>>>>>>> reader? >>>>>>>>>>>> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? >>>>>>>>>>>> Might >>> we ever see >>>>>>>>>>>> a reader that could use artificial >>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a >>>>>>>>>>>> computer screen instead of having >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to educate every person who writes software? >>>>>>>>>>>> Will some of our efforts mean that there might >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> > be a way for us >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to control the Google self-driving cars because >>>>>>>>>>>> of some of the work we did on our own car? I >>>>>>>>>>>> hope that at least some of the answers are yes, >>>>>>>>>>>> but at this point I can't really say. What I >>>>>>>>>>>> do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >>>>>>>>>>>> roots organization that we were in the 80's >>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't have >>> had any affect >>>>>>>>>>>> on some of what I've listed above, nor was it >>>>>>>>>>>> the right time for that. But it also means >>>>>>>>>>>> that we change. Not only do we change, but we >>>>>>>>>>>> make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, >>>>>>>>>>>> what you see as a downward spiral, I see as >>>>>>>>>>>> the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied >>>>>>>>>>>> to say that it has to be that way, though. We >>>>>>>>>>>> can and must learn how to do better, as >>> individuals and >>>>>>>>>>>> as an organization. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting >>>>>>>>>>>> training at one of our centers won't >>>>>>>>>>>> miraculously make life better, and the >>>>>>>>>>>> marketing does sometimes imply that. However, >>>>>>>>>>>> you are wrong to >>> draw conclusions >>>>>>>>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. >>>>>>>>>>>> Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >>>>>>>>>>>> challenges of seeking >>> employment as >>>>>>>>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is >>>>>>>>>>>> addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >>>>>>>>>>>> Minnesota and I assume by our other >>> centers. Some of the >>>>>>>>>>>> point of such training is to encourage the idea >>>>>>>>>>>> that you >> >>>> >> > have to have a set of >>>>>>>>>>>> tools to approach a given situation and not >>>>>>>>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than >>>>>>>>>>>> run people through training. This is true of >>>>>>>>>>>> any single aspectof our challenges, though. >>>>>>>>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> and that one cannot discriminate based upon a >>>>>>>>>>>> disability was and is still needed, but it >>>>>>>>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. >>>>>>>>>>>> Legislation and even training won't matter all >>>>>>>>>>>> that much if we don't get a good basic >>>>>>>>>>>> education. Requiring that school districts >>>>>>>>>>>> teach braille won't fix that problem if there >>>>>>>>>>>> are no braille instructors in a given area. >>>>>>>>>>>> You can't pick any one thing out and say that >>>>>>>>>>>> it can lead to success >>> by itself, >>>>>>>>>>>> and you can't see any given issue as >>>>>>>>>>>> completely standing >>> on its own. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an >>>>>>>>>>>> organization to impact the complex challenges >>>>>>>>>>>> we face with a larger budget >>> than we were. >>>>>>>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we >>>>>>>>>>>> understand where we are going and how our >>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can >>>>>>>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the >>>>>>>>>>>> world and what do we need the world to change >>>>>>>>>>>> is more important than ever, and I don't see >>>>>>>>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of >>> this organization. >>>>>>>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think >>>>>>>>>>>> our >>> understanding of >>>>>>>>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own >>>>>>>>>>>> solutions is >>> what has set >>>>>>>>>>>> us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I >>>>>>>>>>>> think that branching out is a risk worth >>>>>>>>>>>> taking to try to have a wider impact. We need >>>>>>>>>>>> the help of all members, though, to handle >>>>>>>>>>>> change. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie >>>>>>>>>>>> Principato wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle, That was a very thoughtful and >>>>>>>>>>>> politically sensitive response. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joe, I am pleased to see I am not alone in >>>>>>>>>>>> making these observations furring my own >>>>>>>>>>>> relationship with the NFB. while >>> I deeply respect >>>>>>>>>>>> the organization's history and truly appreciate >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>> raw potential the >>>>>>>>>>>> organization has moving forward, the passion I >>>>>>>>>>>> joined >>> with back in >>>>>>>>>>>> high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I >>>>>>>>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I >>>>>>>>>>>> think the NFB desperately needs members who >>>>>>>>>>>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and >>> who are willing >>>>>>>>>>>> to discuss issues of blindness and politics in >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>> no-nonsense way that >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame >>>>>>>>>>>> though when >>> those of us >>>>>>>>>>>> less willing to toe the line and pander to >>>>>>>>>>>> those with >>> political power >>>>>>>>>>>> are treated with hostility by some at the >>>>>>>>>>>> national >>> level, and more >>>>>>>>>>>> still within our local chapters. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle >>>>>>>>>>>> Silverman >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not >>>>>>>>>>>> been following the Braille Monitor that closely >>>>>>>>>>>> but I can understand what you are saying about >>>>>>>>>>>> the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have >>>>>>>>>>>> also felt like the national convention is >>>>>>>>>>>> turning into more of a carnival with all the >>>>>>>>>>>> exhibitors and prizes being given away, and >>>>>>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on >>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with >>>>>>>>>>>> prize drawings and the like. To be fair, NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> was stronger financially when we joined >> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> > than it is now, and I understand that some >>>>>>>>>>>> national programs have >>> been cut due >>>>>>>>>>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be >>>>>>>>>>>> steady >>> reliable income >>>>>>>>>>> sources. >>>>>>>>>>>> So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>> alternative could be >>>>>>>>>>>> a loss of programs and resources. I have not >>>>>>>>>>>> heard of anyone being blatantly turned >>> away or refused >>>>>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever >>>>>>>>>>>> happens it is truly shameful. I do think that >>>>>>>>>>>> sometimes prospective >>> members choose not >>>>>>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from >>>>>>>>>>>> the organization or judgment of their lifestyle >>>>>>>>>>>> choices. I think part of that is perception >>>>>>>>>>>> only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is >>>>>>>>>>>> stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all >>>>>>>>>>>> organization, and new members >>> expecting to find >>>>>>>>>>>> that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>>>>>>>>>> hostility. >>> However, there >>>>>>>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among >>>>>>>>>>>> certain >>> segments of >>>>>>>>>>>> the organization, which, again, is unfortunate. >>>>>>>>>>>> I will say that >> >>>> >> > I am not the most >>>>>>>>>>>> graceful blind person and was relatively >>> unskilled when I >>>>>>>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely >>>>>>>>>>>> accepted. >>> But I know not >>>>>>>>>>>> all of us are so lucky. I would encourage >>>>>>>>>>>> prospective >>> members who have >>>>>>>>>>>> a negative experience to try again in a >>>>>>>>>>>> different chapter or division and perhaps they >>>>>>>>>>>> will find acceptance there. But at the same >>>>>>>>>>>> time, this is something we need to be >>> sensitive to >>>>>>>>>>>> in the organization. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: Hello >>>>>>>>>>>> all. This is why I am not apart of any "blind >>>>>>>>>>>> movement." I live my own life, live my own >>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy, ETC. I do not believe >>> in a one size >>>>>>>>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what >>>>>>>>>>>> the NFB does. Thanks. Mike >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM To: >>>>>>>>>>>> jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of >>>>>>>>>>>> Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: >>>>>>>>>>>> [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both >>>>>>>>>>>> college, >>> and Seminary >>>>>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have >>>>>>>>>>>> been >>> nice to have a >>>>>>>>>>> mentoor. >>>>>>>>>>>> RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 12:25 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I >>>>>>>>>>>> Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national >>>>>>>>>>>> convention. While there I was caught up in the >>>>>>>>>>>> ra ra of the movement and felt >>> glad to be >>>>>>>>>>>> in the company >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of so many people who could relate to the >>>>>>>>>>>> challenges >>> that awaited me >>>>>>>>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left >>>>>>>>>>>> convention, finished >>> up my summer >>>>>>>>>>>> as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to >>>>>>>>>>>> begin my >>> business with >>>>>>>>>>>> the real world. I would never take away >>>>>>>>>>>> someone's enthusiasm from attending a national >>>>>>>>>>>> convention or Washington Seminar or one of the >>>>>>>>>>>> weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They >>>>>>>>>>>> are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>>>>>>>> spirit, but I believe too many people fall >>>>>>>>>>>> through the cracks when faced with reality >>>>>>>>>>>> outside of those infrequent >>>>>>>>>>> gatherings. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different >>>>>>>>>>>> from any other nonprofit business. It needs >>>>>>>>>>>> money to sustain itself, >>> and in turn >>>>>>>>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I found it rather disappointing that so >>>>>>>>>>>> much of the board meeting I tuned into listen >>>>>>>>>>>> to last summer was dominated by calls to raise >>>>>>>>>>>> money >>> for this fund >>>>>>>>>>>> or that >>>>>>>>>>> effort. >>>>>>>>>>>> I found it even sadder that a recent issue of >>>>>>>>>>>> the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just >>> to the focus >>>>>>>>>>>> of generating more ways to drum up more >>>>>>>>>>>> financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>>>>>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have not heard in years but boldly ask me to >>> contribute to their >>>>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced >>>>>>>>>>>> enterprise and forgot about the movement. >>>>>>>>>>>> Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits >>>>>>>>>>>> outside of the blindness >>> field, also >>>>>>>>>>>> national in scope. They too made fundraising a >>>>>>>>>>>> priority, but it never >>> felt like the >>>>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome >>>>>>>>>>>> when we focus on recruiting new blood and >>>>>>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about >>>>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've >>>>>>>>>>>> already had. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some >>>>>>>>>>>> excellent blind professionals. I think they >>>>>>>>>>>> would do well in the NFB. They are smarter >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > than I ever will be and have >>>>>>>>>>>> accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but >>>>>>>>>>>> they shun the organization because they were >>>>>>>>>>>> turned away or because they were never >>>>>>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I >>>>>>>>>>>> should have kept in mind when I had my brief >>>>>>>>>>>> taste of leadership in the organization. I had >>>>>>>>>>>> too much of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, >>>>>>>>>>>> but I >>> was reliable >>>>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the >>>>>>>>>>>> job done >>> should have >>>>>>>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these >>>>>>>>>>>> men and women who could have made the NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new >>> ideas, and most >>>>>>>>>>>> important, remaining true to the cause and not >>>>>>>>>>>> some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the >>>>>>>>>>>> original >> >>>> >> > post? I don't want >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> it to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The >>>>>>>>>>>> leadership may as well know what I think of >>>>>>>>>>>> them, but more importantly, to the >>> college kids on >>>>>>>>>>>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want >>>>>>>>>>>> you to know the NFB banner will only guide >>>>>>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the >>>>>>>>>>>> organization and leave the political drama and >>>>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>>>>>>> your own wits and >>> talents that will >>>>>>>>>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps >>>>>>>>>>>> you uncover what you always had >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to be successful. Anything could happen with >>>>>>>>>>>> the new NFB >>> president, >>>>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if >>>>>>>>>>>> he is >>> brave enough to >>>>>>>>>>>> reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no >>>>>>>>>>>> longer live in a world where the NFB is >>>>>>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology >>>>>>>>>>>> has seen >>>>>>>>>>> to that. >>>>>>>>>>>> Whether or not the movement sticks around >>>>>>>>>>>> largely depends on how badly we want it to >>>>>>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's >>>>>>>>>>>> debatable, but you know what I've found from >>>>>>>>>>>> the people I've met on that side of the house? >>>>>>>>>>>> They seem happier, and that's something we >>>>>>>>>>>> can't seem to >>> figure out in >>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> camp. >>>>>>>>>>>> The few victories they celebrate they do with >>>>>>>>>>>> even less >>> money. Let that be >>>>>>>>>>>> a lesson in financial management to you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. >>>>>>>>>>>> I told myself I would never become one of >>>>>>>>>>>> those bitter former NFB members. My only goal >>>>>>>>>>>> was to provide different perspectives to the >>>>>>>>>>>> new >>> generation >>>>>>>>>>>> of leaders coming up through the ranks. After >>>>>>>>>>>> all, if you never taste the real world, you >>>>>>>>>>>> have no business leading. That's like the >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut >>>>>>>>>>>> it, and believe >>> it or not, >>>>>>>>>>>> I want to see more and more of you excel at >>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it >>> is you want >>>>>>>>>>>> to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>>>>>>>>> our strength. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>> myself here lest >>>>>>>>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, >>>>>>>>>>>> but in some lame attempt to answer the >>>>>>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind >>>>>>>>>>>> person are >>> humility to >>>>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, >>>>>>>>>>>> fortitude to turn away what will not, and >>>>>>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> 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Antivirus >>>>>>>>>>> protection is active. http://www.avast.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlym >>> >>>>>>>>>>> ih% 40comcast.net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- Kaiti >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ nabs-l >>>>>>>> mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>>>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ nabs-l >>>>>>> mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ nabs-l >>>>>> mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ nabs-l >>>>> mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing >>>> list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > -- >> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach me by skype at denverqueen0920 From twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com Mon Apr 7 04:28:18 2014 From: twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com (Tamika Williams) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2014 23:28:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with declaring my major Message-ID: Hi NABS, My name is Tamika Williams and I live in the state of Alabama. Next semester I will be a junior in college at the University of South Alabama. Therefore, I am coming to a point where I have to declare my major. Within a couple of semesters, I will be done with all my prerequirements for Business Administration. However, I am still a bit uncertain about which major I would like to declare. My three areas of consideration are Accounting, General Management, or Entrepreneurship. So I have two questions for you guys. They are as follows: 1. Are you in either of these fields of study or do you know anybody that is? Will you or your other relevant source be willing to talk to me off list so that you could give me a little mor insight on these areas? 2. What jobs do you guys know of that could be done with these degrees by a totally blind person with reasonable accomodations? Sorry, I know that is a broad question, but I am just looking for those that stands out the most to you. Any pertinent questions, recommendations, or comments are very much appreciated. Sincerely, Tamika Williams From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Mon Apr 7 06:03:18 2014 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel and Stockard) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 01:03:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with declaring my major In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10F49269-A9D8-45E8-B423-10C45E11F05D@gmail.com> Hi Tamika, I don't personally know anybody who can help you, but here's my piece of advice for what it's worth. Go and look at job postings, find out exactly what kind of jobs you would want to do. Then, find people, even local people who lived/worked near you, and call or email them. Tell them who you are, ask them what kind of college education they got, and how they got to where they are now. That might help you get a better idea what you might need to do next, it helped me. Laurel On Apr 6, 2014, at 11:28 PM, Tamika Williams wrote: > Hi NABS, > > My name is Tamika Williams and I live in the state of Alabama. Next > semester I will be a junior in college at the University of South > Alabama. Therefore, I am coming to a point where I have to declare my > major. Within a couple of semesters, I will be done with all my > prerequirements for Business Administration. However, I am still a bit > uncertain about which major I would like to declare. My three areas of > consideration are Accounting, General Management, or Entrepreneurship. > So I have two questions for you guys. They are as follows: > > 1. Are you in either of these fields of study or do you know anybody > that is? Will you or your other relevant source be willing to talk to > me off list so that you could give me a little mor insight on these > areas? > > 2. What jobs do you guys know of that could be done with these degrees > by a totally blind person with reasonable accomodations? Sorry, I know > that is a broad question, but I am just looking for those that stands > out the most to you. > > Any pertinent questions, recommendations, or comments are very much appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Tamika Williams > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Mon Apr 7 07:30:58 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 00:30:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140407002109.02050020@comcast.net> Good early morning, Kaiti, Wow! My first thought upon reading your post was, did you expect different from a fraternity? Seems to me trying to feel accepted amungst a fraternity might be akin to trying to find such a feeling amungst the cliquish, Society group eva! And, hasn't this feeling of exclusion been a perpetual presence within your experience at least, since you were in like, Kindergarten? Did you expect different from ol' Sighty? I think I have learned that, ol' Sighty has no use we regard as constructive for us. He doesn't need us. I am trying to be supportive, here, so please don't read this as being in any way calloused to your receiving the heev ho by ol' Sighty, that was not my intent. I'm just trying to talk a little Turkey, get you to think. Also, I would like to talk if you are feeling it, Please use my number if you also feel it... for today, Car 408-209-3239 :30 PM 4/6/2014, you wrote: >Hi all, > >For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations >on campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >situation now. > >Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >service fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of >my freshman year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt >the chapter was run in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people >always did everything and never let those of us who were on the >outside do much. The elections seemed more like a popularity contest, >with really personal digs made by current exec board members against >candidates who they did not want to see in future exec board >positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an outsider, a >member just watching and casting my votes, it left a bitter taste in >my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't want to be >a part of the organization. > >That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot >better. This one is a professional organization more geared towards >my major. It is smaller, and still does service, which I like. >However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. >One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication >and access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work >fine for the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they >do not work for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information >that was posted online, or when I don't know to do something because I >can't see it, people are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather >than thinking, "Oh, I wonder if she didn't see it." > >This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I >am a bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job >very well if I know what is expected of me and have the accessibility >to do it. However, with the google docs system, and the lack of >communication I receive from my sisters about visual things they just >pick up on naturally, I am unable to contribute in the way I want to. > >I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. >We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was >not elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted >the recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >year have made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >responsibilities to my sisters, when they really don't know my >situation and never asked. I specifically chose to run for recording >secretary because I have particular experience with this position, and >I also know that the minutes are taken in Word Docs and member >standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would have run into no >technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would have been >great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and musical >ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I >have gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten >in my way. > >I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the >chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be >best friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >me, which isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I >say something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even >when we're sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter >issue; the people this happens with also don't really socialize with >me in classes, and I'm one of those awkward people who gets along more >with people who are older and younger than her than with students in >my year. > >I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at >all, but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >these issues. > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 7 08:28:34 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 04:28:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you have, but I just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs Hi all, For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations on campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my situation now. Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community service fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my freshman year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter was run in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did everything and never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The elections seemed more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by current exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see in future exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a bitter taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't want to be a part of the organization. That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot better. This one is a professional organization more geared towards my major. It is smaller, and still does service, which I like. However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication and access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work fine for the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not work for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was posted online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, people are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I wonder if she didn't see it." This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I am a bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very well if I know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. However, with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive from my sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am unable to contribute in the way I want to. I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was not elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted the recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this year have made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these responsibilities to my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never asked. I specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have particular experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are taken in Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would have run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would have been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and musical ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I have gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in my way. I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be best friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, which isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I say something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when we're sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the people this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, and I'm one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are older and younger than her than with students in my year. I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at all, but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these issues. -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From carlymih at comcast.net Mon Apr 7 09:14:41 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 02:14:41 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> Good morning, Justin, Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within the system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be somehow, effective. So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face value. for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you have, but I >just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton >Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs > >Hi all, > >For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations on >campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my situation now. > >Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community service >fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my freshman >year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter was run >in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did everything and >never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The elections seemed >more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by current >exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see in future >exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a bitter >taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't want to >be a part of the organization. > >That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot better. >This one is a professional organization more geared towards my major. It is >smaller, and still does service, which I like. >However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. >One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication and >access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work fine for >the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not work >for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was posted >online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, people >are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I wonder >if she didn't see it." > >This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I am a >bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very well if I >know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. However, >with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive from my >sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am unable to >contribute in the way I want to. > >I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. >We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was not >elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted the >recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this year have >made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these responsibilities to >my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never asked. I >specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have particular >experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are taken in >Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would have >run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would have >been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and musical >ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I have >gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in my way. > >I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the >chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be best >friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, which >isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I say >something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when we're >sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the people >this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, and I'm >one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are older >and younger than her than with students in my year. > >I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at all, >but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these issues. > >-- >Kaiti > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon Apr 7 11:15:50 2014 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 06:15:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue In-Reply-To: References: <00d201cf4ef5$582382b0$086a8810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: But the difference is that people without disabilities are automatically judged as capable of earning at least the minimum wage. In fact, it is a taken for granted assumption. This taken for granted assumption does not apply to people disabilities. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 2, 2014, at 11:51 PM, Michael Forzano wrote: > > Hi Arielle, > > At any job, whether you have a disability or not, your wages depend on > your performance. Of course, if you're earning minimum wage, and > aren't subject to the subminimum wage exception, you get fired if you > underperform for a long enough time. So no, employees being paid > subminimum wage are not the only ones being judged based on their > performance. > > I do agree you have a point about parents'/guardians discouraging > people from doing what they might be capable of, making them think > subminimum wage jobs are their only option when that might not be the > case. But that problem stretches way beyond minimum wage. I think it > is the reason many blind people don't apply for jobs at all. The NFB > should focus on trying to solve that problem as a whole, rather than > fixating on this issue that affects only a tiny percentage of people. > > I'd be interested to hear about the Harvard law student who was once > paid subminimum wage. I can't help wondering why he chose to stay at > that job, since he clearly knows what he is capable of if he is at > Harvard. > > Overall, my point is that the subminimum wage program is designed for > people who actually can't perform a minimum wage job. Apparently some > high-functioning blind people ended up in these jobs, whether it was > because they were discouraged by their parents or some other reason. > That just means they were incorrectly put into the program, not that > the program doesn't serve a purpose. Again, it might be the only > option for severely disabled people other than sitting at home for the > rest of their lives. > > Mike > >> On 4/2/14, justin williams wrote: >> Everyone has the right to make minimum wage; while I understand your >> viewpoint of the employers possibly laying off those workers, noone, and I >> mean noone should be forced to work for subminimum wage. It simply is not >> fare, and it will be corrected. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael >> Forzano >> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:01 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] The Subminimum Wage Issue >> >> Hi All, >> >> I've been hearing a lot about the subminimum wage issue that the NFB is >> involved in, and the NFB's position honestly doesn't make sense to me. >> >> My understanding is that the people being paid subminimum wages have >> disabilities in addition to blindness that prevent them from doing the job >> as productively as someone being paid minimum wage, such as cerebral palsy. >> If subminimum wages are eliminated, it seems pretty clear to me that the >> employers would lay off the people in question. >> After all, if you suddenly have to pay an employee hundreds of times more >> than you were paying them for the same amount of work/productivity, I don't >> think you'd have much choice. >> >> People being paid suvminimum wage are likely in that situation because they >> have no other choice, that is, their disabilities prevent them from working >> even a minimum wage job. If the NFB succeeds, these people will likely have >> no job at all and be forced to spend their lives sitting at home on SSI. >> How >> is that helping them? at least right now, they have a job, something to >> keep >> them busy. >> >> I'm curious to see how the NFB is arguing against this because it seems >> pretty clear to me from a business perspective. As much as the employers >> may >> want to continue to employ these people it just won't make sense. >> >> Mike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michaeldforzano%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From codyjbair at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 14:20:46 2014 From: codyjbair at yahoo.com (codyjbair at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 14:20:46 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] =?utf-8?q?Help_with_declaring_my_major?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <888837.43481.bm@smtp204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Tamika, I am a senior accounting major at the University of Northern Colorado and believe that accounting is a very interesting field of study with ample opportunities. Their are numerous careers involved in accounting of which include public accounting(Primarily tax and audit) and various positions in industry. Throughout my undergraduate carreer I have worked two internships with a reigional firm in Colorado working in their tax department specializing in real estate and state and local taxation. Although accounting is a very rewarding field, I must admit that their are sometimes accessibility bariers with softwares used by different company’s but up to this point I have not found anything that has been impossible to work around. Should you chose accounting also know that it is a major that will require a lot of your time as the material in upper-level accounting courses is often difficult to learn. However, your sighted peers will also have difficulty with such material. Let me know if you would like to discuss this more off list? Thanks, Cody From: Tamika Williams Sent: ‎Sunday‎, ‎April‎ ‎6‎, ‎2014 ‎10‎:‎28‎ ‎PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Hi NABS, My name is Tamika Williams and I live in the state of Alabama. Next semester I will be a junior in college at the University of South Alabama. Therefore, I am coming to a point where I have to declare my major. Within a couple of semesters, I will be done with all my prerequirements for Business Administration. However, I am still a bit uncertain about which major I would like to declare. My three areas of consideration are Accounting, General Management, or Entrepreneurship. So I have two questions for you guys. They are as follows: 1. Are you in either of these fields of study or do you know anybody that is? Will you or your other relevant source be willing to talk to me off list so that you could give me a little mor insight on these areas? 2. What jobs do you guys know of that could be done with these degrees by a totally blind person with reasonable accomodations? Sorry, I know that is a broad question, but I am just looking for those that stands out the most to you. Any pertinent questions, recommendations, or comments are very much appreciated. Sincerely, Tamika Williams _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/codyjbair%40yahoo.com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Mon Apr 7 16:50:54 2014 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 11:50:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Kaiti, This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could have a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of accomidation. I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider dropping it if you can't get anywhere. On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, Justin, > > Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within the > system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be > somehow, effective. > So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating > their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face value. > for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you have, but >> I >>just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >>responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton >>Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >> >>Hi all, >> >>For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations on >>campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my situation now. >> >>Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community service >>fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my freshman >>year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter was >> run >>in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did everything >> and >>never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The elections >> seemed >>more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by current >>exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see in >> future >>exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >>outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a bitter >>taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't want >> to >>be a part of the organization. >> >>That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot >> better. >>This one is a professional organization more geared towards my major. It >> is >>smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. >>One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication and >>access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work fine >> for >>the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not work >>for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was posted >>online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, >> people >>are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I >> wonder >>if she didn't see it." >> >>This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I am >> a >>bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very well if >> I >>know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. However, >>with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive from >> my >>sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am unable to >>contribute in the way I want to. >> >>I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. >>We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was not >>elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted the >>recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this year have >>made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these responsibilities to >>my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never asked. I >>specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >> particular >>experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are taken >> in >>Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would >> have >>run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would have >>been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and musical >>ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I have >>gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in my >> way. >> >>I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the >>chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be best >>friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, which >>isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I say >>something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when we're >>sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the people >>this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, and I'm >>one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are older >>and younger than her than with students in my year. >> >>I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at >> all, >>but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these >> issues. >> >>-- >>Kaiti >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From kaybaycar at gmail.com Mon Apr 7 16:52:07 2014 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 11:52:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> Message-ID: Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access documents and such. Lol On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Hi Kaiti, > > This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my > small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried > to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar > experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two > people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience > so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could have > a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like > access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is > inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of accomidation. > > I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I > seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in > the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider > dropping it if you can't get anywhere. > > On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> Good morning, Justin, >> >> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within the >> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be >> somehow, effective. >> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face value. >> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you have, but >>> I >>>just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >>>responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>> Shelton >>>Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>> >>>Hi all, >>> >>>For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations on >>>campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my situation >>> now. >>> >>>Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>> service >>>fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my freshman >>>year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter was >>> run >>>in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did everything >>> and >>>never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The elections >>> seemed >>>more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by current >>>exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see in >>> future >>>exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >>>outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a bitter >>>taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't want >>> to >>>be a part of the organization. >>> >>>That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot >>> better. >>>This one is a professional organization more geared towards my major. It >>> is >>>smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. >>>One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication and >>>access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work fine >>> for >>>the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not work >>>for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was posted >>>online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, >>> people >>>are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I >>> wonder >>>if she didn't see it." >>> >>>This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I am >>> a >>>bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very well >>> if >>> I >>>know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>> However, >>>with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive from >>> my >>>sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am unable >>> to >>>contribute in the way I want to. >>> >>>I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. >>>We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was not >>>elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted the >>>recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this year >>> have >>>made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these responsibilities >>> to >>>my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never asked. I >>>specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>> particular >>>experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are taken >>> in >>>Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would >>> have >>>run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would >>> have >>>been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and musical >>>ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I have >>>gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in my >>> way. >>> >>>I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the >>>chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be best >>>friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, >>> which >>>isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I say >>>something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when we're >>>sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the people >>>this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, and I'm >>>one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are older >>>and younger than her than with students in my year. >>> >>>I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at >>> all, >>>but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these >>> issues. >>> >>>-- >>>Kaiti >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>.com >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Mon Apr 7 18:20:47 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 12:20:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could not accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities because of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. Beth On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if > you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access > documents and such. Lol > > On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Hi Kaiti, >> >> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried >> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >> people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience >> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could have >> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of accomidation. >> >> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >> >> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> Good morning, Justin, >>> >>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within the >>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be >>> somehow, effective. >>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face value. >>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you have, but >>>> I >>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>>> Shelton >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations on >>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my situation >>>> now. >>>> >>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>>> service >>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my freshman >>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter was >>>> run >>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did everything >>>> and >>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The elections >>>> seemed >>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by current >>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see in >>>> future >>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a bitter >>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't want >>>> to >>>> be a part of the organization. >>>> >>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot >>>> better. >>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my major. It >>>> is >>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. >>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication and >>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work fine >>>> for >>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not work >>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was posted >>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, >>>> people >>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I >>>> wonder >>>> if she didn't see it." >>>> >>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I am >>>> a >>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very well >>>> if >>>> I >>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>> However, >>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive from >>>> my >>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am unable >>>> to >>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>> >>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. >>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was not >>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted the >>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this year >>>> have >>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these responsibilities >>>> to >>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never asked. I >>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>> particular >>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are taken >>>> in >>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would >>>> have >>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would >>>> have >>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and musical >>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I have >>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in my >>>> way. >>>> >>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the >>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be best >>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, >>>> which >>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I say >>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when we're >>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the people >>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, and I'm >>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are older >>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>> >>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at >>>> all, >>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these >>>> issues. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> > -- Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach me by skype at denverqueen0920 From sarah.meyer55 at gmail.com Mon Apr 7 22:13:07 2014 From: sarah.meyer55 at gmail.com (Sarah Meyer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 18:13:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School and Training Center? Message-ID: Hi Arielle, Thanks so much for your response and your creative suggestions. :) I'm going to be doing some research into various options. I didn't realize it was possible to attend only a portion of the training program. I'm sure this would be beneficial but the more time invested the better as is true with most things. Thanks, Sarah From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Tue Apr 8 01:05:28 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 20:05:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with declaring my major In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001801cf52c6$a235c9b0$e6a15d10$@mediacombb.net> The main question or first one you should ask yourself is what excites me the most? If money, technology, or anything else was not an issue, what would you love to do. It also should be said that you won't necessarily do that for the rest of your working years. Most people change careers two or three times. It sounds cliché, but figure out what it is you want to do, and then the how will follow. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tamika Williams Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 11:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Help with declaring my major Hi NABS, My name is Tamika Williams and I live in the state of Alabama. Next semester I will be a junior in college at the University of South Alabama. Therefore, I am coming to a point where I have to declare my major. Within a couple of semesters, I will be done with all my prerequirements for Business Administration. However, I am still a bit uncertain about which major I would like to declare. My three areas of consideration are Accounting, General Management, or Entrepreneurship. So I have two questions for you guys. They are as follows: 1. Are you in either of these fields of study or do you know anybody that is? Will you or your other relevant source be willing to talk to me off list so that you could give me a little mor insight on these areas? 2. What jobs do you guys know of that could be done with these degrees by a totally blind person with reasonable accomodations? Sorry, I know that is a broad question, but I am just looking for those that stands out the most to you. Any pertinent questions, recommendations, or comments are very much appreciated. Sincerely, Tamika Williams _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 02:27:05 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 22:27:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi all, First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music building every day. It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to changing documents. I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had going for them was that their online management system was completely jaws accessible. I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't this particular one I am in right now. On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: > I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of > political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could not > accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities because > of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. > Beth > On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if >> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >> documents and such. Lol >> >> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Hi Kaiti, >>> >>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried >>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience >>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could have >>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of accomidation. >>> >>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>> >>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>> >>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within the >>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be >>>> somehow, effective. >>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face value. >>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you have, >>>>> but >>>>> I >>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>>>> Shelton >>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations >>>>> on >>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my situation >>>>> now. >>>>> >>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>>>> service >>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>> freshman >>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter >>>>> was >>>>> run >>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>> everything >>>>> and >>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The elections >>>>> seemed >>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>> current >>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see in >>>>> future >>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>> bitter >>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't >>>>> want >>>>> to >>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>> >>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot >>>>> better. >>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my major. >>>>> It >>>>> is >>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. >>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication >>>>> and >>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work >>>>> fine >>>>> for >>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not >>>>> work >>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>> posted >>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, >>>>> people >>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I >>>>> wonder >>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>> >>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but I >>>>> am >>>>> a >>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very >>>>> well >>>>> if >>>>> I >>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>> However, >>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive >>>>> from >>>>> my >>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>> unable >>>>> to >>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>> >>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. >>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was >>>>> not >>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted the >>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this year >>>>> have >>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>> responsibilities >>>>> to >>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never asked. >>>>> I >>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>> particular >>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are >>>>> taken >>>>> in >>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I would >>>>> have >>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would >>>>> have >>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>> musical >>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I >>>>> have >>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in my >>>>> way. >>>>> >>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of the >>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be >>>>> best >>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, >>>>> which >>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I >>>>> say >>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when >>>>> we're >>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the >>>>> people >>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, and >>>>> I'm >>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are >>>>> older >>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>> >>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent at >>>>> all, >>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these >>>>> issues. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Julie McG >>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>> life." >>> John 3:16 >>> >> > > > -- > Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach me > by skype at denverqueen0920 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 02:57:51 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 22:57:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Kaiti, I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This could be something you might try to meet more people. And the suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) Cheers, Minh On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. > It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. > This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is > not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because > they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to > class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since > music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music > building every day. > > It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member > in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, > since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. > We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at > that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for > one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to > help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized > person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be > good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started > asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My > thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and > just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told > not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google > drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the > vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work > with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to > things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make > because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier > software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the > document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the > president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make > it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and > the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and > people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues > that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of > communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to > changing documents. > > I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with > jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting > text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to > change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting > text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester > would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I > tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed > major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been > responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the > issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the > future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the > semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as > the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect > her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also > suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks > into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. > > I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in > there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of > the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think > that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they > obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position > on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but > my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it > seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said > something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to > go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll > be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." > She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the > exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the > week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had > going for them was that their online management system was completely > jaws accessible. > > I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, > even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, > plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer > attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on > campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of > classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff > because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced > herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical > jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, > since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to > go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. > However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around > people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my > things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert > committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, > best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to > younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against > cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and > organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all > relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I > have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I > could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't > this particular one I am in right now. > > On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could not >> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities because >> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >> Beth >> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if >>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>> documents and such. Lol >>> >>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>> >>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried >>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience >>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could have >>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of accomidation. >>>> >>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>> >>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>> >>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within the >>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be >>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face value. >>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you have, >>>>>> but >>>>>> I >>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>>>>> Shelton >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in organizations >>>>>> on >>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my situation >>>>>> now. >>>>>> >>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>>>>> service >>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>> freshman >>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter >>>>>> was >>>>>> run >>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>> everything >>>>>> and >>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The elections >>>>>> seemed >>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>> current >>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see in >>>>>> future >>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>> bitter >>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't >>>>>> want >>>>>> to >>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>> >>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot >>>>>> better. >>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my major. >>>>>> It >>>>>> is >>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. >>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication >>>>>> and >>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work >>>>>> fine >>>>>> for >>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not >>>>>> work >>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>> posted >>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, >>>>>> people >>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I >>>>>> wonder >>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>> >>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but >>>>>> I >>>>>> am >>>>>> a >>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very >>>>>> well >>>>>> if >>>>>> I >>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>> However, >>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive >>>>>> from >>>>>> my >>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>> unable >>>>>> to >>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me socially. >>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was >>>>>> not >>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted >>>>>> the >>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this year >>>>>> have >>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>> to >>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never asked. >>>>>> I >>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>> particular >>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are >>>>>> taken >>>>>> in >>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>> would >>>>>> have >>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position would >>>>>> have >>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>> musical >>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I >>>>>> have >>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in >>>>>> my >>>>>> way. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of >>>>>> the >>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be >>>>>> best >>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, >>>>>> which >>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless I >>>>>> say >>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when >>>>>> we're >>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the >>>>>> people >>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, and >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are >>>>>> older >>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>> >>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent >>>>>> at >>>>>> all, >>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these >>>>>> issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Julie McG >>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>> life." >>>> John 3:16 >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >> me >> by skype at denverqueen0920 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 03:39:18 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:39:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members of their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of any service group and see if it's one that really cares about empowering people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or generating sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity or sympathy to raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not be a good one for a blind person to join and be fully included. My synagogue growing up had a youth group that had volunteers staff a retreat for kids from low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone to be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My sister worked the camp and she said that during one activity when the kids were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of them said they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so sad that they never could do that since the camp recruited counselors from our wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income areas where these kids lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my point is that some service groups unfortunately thrive on highlighting the differences between the people who serve and the people who are served, when in reality I think people who receive service should be allowed and invited to give it back. An organization that empowers people rather than keeping them down in order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive of blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help the disabled. Just my thoughts. Arielle On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: > Hi Kaiti, > > I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of > student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need > accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most > important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can > and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision > to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, > people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all > accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its > inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you > couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in > now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever > is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know > clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to > them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to > make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other > universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an > awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just > interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not > weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, > even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This > could be something you might try to meet more people. And the > suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are > great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are > generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized > populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. > > Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive > is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and > better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to > existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the > latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder > someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This > could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just > know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) > > Cheers, > Minh > > On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is >> not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because >> they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to >> class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since >> music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music >> building every day. >> >> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member >> in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, >> since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at >> that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for >> one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to >> help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized >> person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be >> good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started >> asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My >> thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and >> just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told >> not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google >> drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the >> vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work >> with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to >> things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make >> because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier >> software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the >> document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the >> president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make >> it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and >> the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and >> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues >> that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of >> communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to >> changing documents. >> >> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with >> jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting >> text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to >> change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting >> text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester >> would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I >> tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed >> major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been >> responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the >> issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the >> future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the >> semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as >> the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect >> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks >> into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >> >> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in >> there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of >> the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think >> that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they >> obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position >> on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but >> my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it >> seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said >> something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to >> go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll >> be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the >> exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the >> week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had >> going for them was that their online management system was completely >> jaws accessible. >> >> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, >> even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, >> plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer >> attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on >> campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of >> classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff >> because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced >> herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical >> jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, >> since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to >> go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around >> people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my >> things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert >> committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, >> best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to >> younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against >> cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and >> organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all >> relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I >> have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I >> could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't >> this particular one I am in right now. >> >> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >>> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could not >>> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities because >>> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>> Beth >>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if >>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>> documents and such. Lol >>>> >>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>> >>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried >>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience >>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could have >>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of accomidation. >>>>> >>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>> >>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within the >>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be >>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>> value. >>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>> have, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>> situation >>>>>>> now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>>>>>> service >>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> run >>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>> everything >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>> elections >>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>>> current >>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> future >>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I didn't >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a lot >>>>>>> better. >>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>> major. >>>>>>> It >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the group. >>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work >>>>>>> fine >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do not >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>> posted >>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see it, >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, I >>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, but >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very >>>>>>> well >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>> However, >>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I receive >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>> unable >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>> year >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>> particular >>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are >>>>>>> taken >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>> musical >>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be >>>>>>> best >>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to me, >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when >>>>>>> we're >>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are >>>>>>> older >>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> all, >>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through these >>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Julie McG >>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>> life." >>>>> John 3:16 >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >>> me >>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 04:06:34 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 00:06:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Arielle, I did think about that possibly being an issue, but I think the other 2 orgs are ones I might give more consideration to. I want to work in a hospital, and possibly specifically with kids who have cancer, so Colleges Against Cancer would be a good one for me. I also am really geeky when it comes to planning things, and know my music pretty well, so Campus Concert Committee might also not be bad for me to join either. I plan on sending emails to the inboxes for all 3 orgs at the beginning of the fall semester to get a feel for what their leadership is like, and if I'll run into any accessibility issues. CAC is probably my top choice though, since I've wanted to do Relay for Life for several years now and for one reason or another always had a conflict with the date. Plus, it would help me learn more about what is going on in the world of cancer treatment and stuff, and still allow me to help plan an event. Minh, lunch dates are pretty big here, and I do them sometimes. I'm actually still really close with my big from the first fraternity I joined, and she and I grab lunch or dinner every few weeks or so to catch up and talk philosophy (since she'll be graduating with her philosophy degree in May, and I've recently added a philosophy minor). I have gone on spur of the moment food runs with members of my chapter too, including a trip to Starbucks last week with a girl I kind of know from being in marching band and some other things together. I think there are people who like me in the chapter, and who think I'm not doing a bad job in carrying out my duties to the chapter, but the current leadership is very up-tight, and mostly comprised of people I either never really clicked with or just didn't really have a chance to get to know. (A lot of them are vocalists, and at least in my music department vocalists tend to be in different ensembles which meet at the same times as instrumental ones, so there is a little less chance for interaction). I know everyone on next year's exec board though, and ost of them have worked with me in classes before so they have a little more of an understanding of how my equipment works, so they should be more willing to work with me. The future president saw me a little while ago, and said she was starting to brainstorm herself and would get back to me over Easter break about how to proceed. Hearing that has already made me feel a little better, but I still think that joining another org won't be a bad idea. Nevertheless, I think I'll try to make more of an effort to get to know some of the people I'm not familiar with, so that more people will understand in a basic sense what I can and can't do, and be willing to work with me before jumping to conclusions. On 4/7/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't > always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to > volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for > children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not > allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, > but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't > motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members of > their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of any > service group and see if it's one that really cares about empowering > people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or generating > sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity or sympathy to > raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not be a good one for > a blind person to join and be fully included. My synagogue growing up > had a youth group that had volunteers staff a retreat for kids from > low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" > children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at > getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of > things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some > of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone to > be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My sister > worked the camp and she said that during one activity when the kids > were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of them said > they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so sad that they > never could do that since the camp recruited counselors from our > wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income areas where these kids > lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my point is that some service > groups unfortunately thrive on highlighting the differences between > the people who serve and the people who are served, when in reality I > think people who receive service should be allowed and invited to give > it back. An organization that empowers people rather than keeping them > down in order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive > of blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be > folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you > run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and > you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, > non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help > the disabled. Just my thoughts. > > Arielle > > On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: >> Hi Kaiti, >> >> I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of >> student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need >> accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most >> important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can >> and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision >> to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, >> people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all >> accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its >> inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you >> couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in >> now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever >> is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know >> clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to >> them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to >> make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other >> universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an >> awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just >> interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not >> weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, >> even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This >> could be something you might try to meet more people. And the >> suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are >> great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are >> generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized >> populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. >> >> Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive >> is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and >> better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to >> existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the >> latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder >> someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This >> could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just >> know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) >> >> Cheers, >> Minh >> >> On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >>> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >>> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is >>> not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because >>> they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to >>> class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since >>> music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music >>> building every day. >>> >>> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member >>> in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, >>> since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >>> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at >>> that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for >>> one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to >>> help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized >>> person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be >>> good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started >>> asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My >>> thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and >>> just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told >>> not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google >>> drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the >>> vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work >>> with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to >>> things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make >>> because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier >>> software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the >>> document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the >>> president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make >>> it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and >>> the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and >>> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues >>> that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of >>> communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to >>> changing documents. >>> >>> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with >>> jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting >>> text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to >>> change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting >>> text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester >>> would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I >>> tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed >>> major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been >>> responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the >>> issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the >>> future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the >>> semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as >>> the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect >>> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >>> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks >>> into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >>> >>> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in >>> there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of >>> the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think >>> that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they >>> obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position >>> on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but >>> my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it >>> seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said >>> something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to >>> go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll >>> be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >>> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the >>> exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the >>> week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had >>> going for them was that their online management system was completely >>> jaws accessible. >>> >>> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, >>> even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, >>> plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer >>> attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on >>> campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of >>> classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff >>> because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced >>> herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical >>> jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, >>> since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to >>> go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >>> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around >>> people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my >>> things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert >>> committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, >>> best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to >>> younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against >>> cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and >>> organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all >>> relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I >>> have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I >>> could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't >>> this particular one I am in right now. >>> >>> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >>>> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could >>>> not >>>> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities because >>>> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>>> Beth >>>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if >>>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>>> documents and such. Lol >>>>> >>>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>>> >>>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried >>>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience >>>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could have >>>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of accomidation. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be >>>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>>> value. >>>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>>> have, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >>>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >>>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I >>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a >>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>> better. >>>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>>> major. >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the >>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work >>>>>>>> fine >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see >>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very >>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>>> However, >>>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I >>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>>> unable >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>>> year >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are >>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>>> musical >>>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be >>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when >>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are >>>>>>>> older >>>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>> life." >>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >>>> me >>>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 04:04:29 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 00:04:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: Arielle, I definitely agree with you. I guess I'm speaking from my own extensive experience with service back in high school as well as college. In HS, I was president of National Honors Society and I had to plan all the service events for the group, so I had the luxury of choosing the organizations that I want On 4/7/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't > always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to > volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for > children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not > allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, > but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't > motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members of > their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of any > service group and see if it's one that really cares about empowering > people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or generating > sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity or sympathy to > raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not be a good one for > a blind person to join and be fully included. My synagogue growing up > had a youth group that had volunteers staff a retreat for kids from > low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" > children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at > getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of > things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some > of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone to > be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My sister > worked the camp and she said that during one activity when the kids > were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of them said > they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so sad that they > never could do that since the camp recruited counselors from our > wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income areas where these kids > lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my point is that some service > groups unfortunately thrive on highlighting the differences between > the people who serve and the people who are served, when in reality I > think people who receive service should be allowed and invited to give > it back. An organization that empowers people rather than keeping them > down in order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive > of blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be > folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you > run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and > you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, > non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help > the disabled. Just my thoughts. > > Arielle > > On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: >> Hi Kaiti, >> >> I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of >> student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need >> accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most >> important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can >> and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision >> to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, >> people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all >> accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its >> inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you >> couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in >> now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever >> is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know >> clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to >> them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to >> make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other >> universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an >> awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just >> interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not >> weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, >> even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This >> could be something you might try to meet more people. And the >> suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are >> great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are >> generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized >> populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. >> >> Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive >> is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and >> better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to >> existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the >> latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder >> someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This >> could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just >> know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) >> >> Cheers, >> Minh >> >> On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >>> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >>> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is >>> not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because >>> they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to >>> class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since >>> music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music >>> building every day. >>> >>> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member >>> in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, >>> since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >>> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at >>> that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for >>> one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to >>> help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized >>> person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be >>> good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started >>> asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My >>> thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and >>> just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told >>> not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google >>> drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the >>> vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work >>> with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to >>> things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make >>> because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier >>> software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the >>> document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the >>> president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make >>> it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and >>> the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and >>> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues >>> that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of >>> communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to >>> changing documents. >>> >>> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with >>> jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting >>> text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to >>> change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting >>> text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester >>> would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I >>> tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed >>> major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been >>> responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the >>> issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the >>> future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the >>> semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as >>> the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect >>> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >>> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks >>> into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >>> >>> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in >>> there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of >>> the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think >>> that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they >>> obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position >>> on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but >>> my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it >>> seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said >>> something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to >>> go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll >>> be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >>> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the >>> exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the >>> week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had >>> going for them was that their online management system was completely >>> jaws accessible. >>> >>> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, >>> even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, >>> plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer >>> attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on >>> campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of >>> classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff >>> because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced >>> herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical >>> jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, >>> since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to >>> go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >>> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around >>> people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my >>> things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert >>> committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, >>> best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to >>> younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against >>> cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and >>> organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all >>> relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I >>> have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I >>> could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't >>> this particular one I am in right now. >>> >>> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >>>> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could >>>> not >>>> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities because >>>> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>>> Beth >>>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if >>>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>>> documents and such. Lol >>>>> >>>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>>> >>>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried >>>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience >>>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could have >>>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of accomidation. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will be >>>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>>> value. >>>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>>> have, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they are >>>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the chapter >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as an >>>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I >>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a >>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>> better. >>>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>>> major. >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the >>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of communication >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work >>>>>>>> fine >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see >>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very >>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>>> However, >>>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I >>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>>> unable >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who was >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>>> year >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes are >>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>>> musical >>>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should I >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten in >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to be >>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but unless >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even when >>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who are >>>>>>>> older >>>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my intent >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>> life." >>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >>>> me >>>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 04:12:19 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 00:12:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: Oops sorry, hit send before I meant too. I was just saying I had the luxury of choosing organizations that I thought would be most beneficial for students. I worked a lot with Habitat for Humanity as I felt their mission is to work with others on an equal level, not to treat the people they are serving like charity. I'm also blessed to go to a Jesuit institution where working towards social justice permeates everything we do. A lot of the service we do here isn't focused on a charity model, but a justice one where you stand in solidarity with the underprivileged groups that you are serving. I agree that sometimes non-disability groups can be more open-minded because you don't have any of the prejudices that exist in disability related groups. Unfortunately though, I think this problem is universal,not just in service groups or student organizations. Take the recent discussion we had on the NFB and feeling excluded or judged because you don't live up to a certain standard of being blind. On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: > Arielle, > > I definitely agree with you. I guess I'm speaking from my own > extensive experience with service back in high school as well as > college. In HS, I was president of National Honors Society and I had > to plan all the service events for the group, so I had the luxury of > choosing the organizations that I want > > On 4/7/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't >> always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to >> volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for >> children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not >> allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, >> but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't >> motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members of >> their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of any >> service group and see if it's one that really cares about empowering >> people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or generating >> sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity or sympathy to >> raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not be a good one for >> a blind person to join and be fully included. My synagogue growing up >> had a youth group that had volunteers staff a retreat for kids from >> low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" >> children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at >> getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of >> things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some >> of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone to >> be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My sister >> worked the camp and she said that during one activity when the kids >> were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of them said >> they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so sad that they >> never could do that since the camp recruited counselors from our >> wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income areas where these kids >> lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my point is that some service >> groups unfortunately thrive on highlighting the differences between >> the people who serve and the people who are served, when in reality I >> think people who receive service should be allowed and invited to give >> it back. An organization that empowers people rather than keeping them >> down in order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive >> of blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be >> folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you >> run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and >> you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, >> non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help >> the disabled. Just my thoughts. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: >>> Hi Kaiti, >>> >>> I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of >>> student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need >>> accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most >>> important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can >>> and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision >>> to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, >>> people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all >>> accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its >>> inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you >>> couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in >>> now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever >>> is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know >>> clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to >>> them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to >>> make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other >>> universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an >>> awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just >>> interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not >>> weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, >>> even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This >>> could be something you might try to meet more people. And the >>> suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are >>> great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are >>> generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized >>> populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. >>> >>> Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive >>> is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and >>> better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to >>> existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the >>> latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder >>> someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This >>> could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just >>> know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Minh >>> >>> On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >>>> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >>>> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is >>>> not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because >>>> they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to >>>> class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since >>>> music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music >>>> building every day. >>>> >>>> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member >>>> in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, >>>> since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >>>> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at >>>> that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for >>>> one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to >>>> help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized >>>> person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be >>>> good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started >>>> asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My >>>> thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and >>>> just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told >>>> not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google >>>> drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the >>>> vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work >>>> with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to >>>> things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make >>>> because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier >>>> software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the >>>> document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the >>>> president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make >>>> it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and >>>> the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and >>>> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues >>>> that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of >>>> communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to >>>> changing documents. >>>> >>>> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with >>>> jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting >>>> text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to >>>> change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting >>>> text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester >>>> would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I >>>> tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed >>>> major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been >>>> responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the >>>> issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the >>>> future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the >>>> semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as >>>> the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect >>>> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >>>> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks >>>> into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >>>> >>>> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in >>>> there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of >>>> the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think >>>> that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they >>>> obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position >>>> on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but >>>> my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it >>>> seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said >>>> something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to >>>> go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll >>>> be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >>>> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the >>>> exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the >>>> week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had >>>> going for them was that their online management system was completely >>>> jaws accessible. >>>> >>>> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, >>>> even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, >>>> plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer >>>> attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on >>>> campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of >>>> classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff >>>> because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced >>>> herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical >>>> jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, >>>> since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to >>>> go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >>>> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around >>>> people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my >>>> things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert >>>> committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, >>>> best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to >>>> younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against >>>> cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and >>>> organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all >>>> relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I >>>> have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I >>>> could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't >>>> this particular one I am in right now. >>>> >>>> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >>>>> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could >>>>> not >>>>> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities because >>>>> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>>>> Beth >>>>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if >>>>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>>>> documents and such. Lol >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried >>>>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience >>>>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of >>>>>>> accomidation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>>>> value. >>>>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>>>> have, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the >>>>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I >>>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a >>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>> better. >>>>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>>>> major. >>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the >>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of >>>>>>>>> communication >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work >>>>>>>>> fine >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see >>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very >>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>>>> However, >>>>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I >>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>>>> unable >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>>>> year >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>>>> musical >>>>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but >>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> older >>>>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my >>>>>>>>> intent >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>> life." >>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can >>>>> reach >>>>> me >>>>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 04:13:17 2014 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 21:13:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School and Training Center? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, First, congratulations on being accepted to a graduate program! That is a hard thing to do and I would be excited about my future as well. I am exactly like you. My undergrad experience realized to me how much I needed training. I chose to wait to apply for grad programs until I was in training, but I think there are a couple of options. You could do as Arielle suggests. Some people go for 2 summers to complete the requirements. However, I imagine that after you start your masters program, you will probably want to do an internship the next summer. Also, some graduate programs allow students to defer their acceptance for a year if they give an extenuating circumstance. I think training absolutely fits this category. You could try to enter your program in the spring of 2015 although in my experience, fewer graduate programs start students in the spring as opposed to schools who will allow an admit to defer for a year. I would tend to say that you should get training as soon as possible even if it means putting off life plans a bit, because I learned so much in training that I will now use in grad school, but I also understand your predicament. If they will not allow you to defer a year, I think you should absolutely accept this opportunity and either go to training for 1 summer, 2 summers, or postpone training until after grad school. Cindy On 4/7/14, Sarah Meyer wrote: > Hi Arielle, > Thanks so much for your response and your creative suggestions. :) > I'm going to be doing some research into various options. I didn't > realize it was possible to attend only a portion of the training > program. I'm sure this would be beneficial but the more time invested > the better as is true with most things. > Thanks, > > Sarah > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 04:37:41 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 00:37:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Minh, It's interesting that you bring in social justice to the conversation, because that along with community are things I hear constantly at my university, which is a Marianist college. We have entire living learning communities devoted to social justice, and yet there have been times where I really have not felt like a member of the "community." I had a few really bad roommate experiences both this year and last, and both times when talking about what was bothering me to RAs and RCs, I was told, "Consider it from their point of view," and "Not everyone was brought up the way you were." Some of the things I was speaking about were my roommate bringing guys into the room while I was there and studying (I'm keeping it PG for the list), and the roommates I have this semester leaving messes and expecting me and my direct roommate to act like a maid service. These are things people, out of respect for those around them and that they are sharing spaces with, just won't do. Last year I felt the roommate was doing was brought on by her belief that since I couldn't see what she was doing she could get away with it, and I feel sort of the same way with my roommates this semester. Last semester my living learning community went on a retreat so people could get to know each other, but it really didn't go as planned. My RC and fellow are really lazy with their jobs, so the thing didn't get organized till a month of school was over and people had cliqued up. To force us to meet people we didn't already know, they split apartments up into the 2 cabins, 2 roommates from each apartment in one, and 2 roommates in the other. My direct roommate that semester was a girl from Venezuela who had her group of friends, and my 2 friends I came into the apartment with were put in the other cabin. Because I got turned around in the dark on the way to my cabin and had to spend time waiting for my roommates to come from their cabin and help me locate my own cabin, I missed out on grabbing a lot of the stuff I needed, like a plug so I could charge my phone. My phone died, so I did not wake up to my alarm in the morning. I am the type of person who sleeps with it under my pillow because I don't wake up to even pretty loud noises, and the battery didn't last through the night. I woke up to find everyone in my cabin gone, and an hour had past since the time we were told to meet by the campfire. When I plugged in my phone I called back my roommates who noticed I wasn't at breakfast but were told they had to stay with the group for liability purposes (even though they said I wasn't with the group, so that was a liability purpose if they wanted to be logical about it). When I called them I asked where everyone was, and they told me to stay there because they were hiking through the woods on a very steep and kind of dangerous trail, and were tripping over things themselves. Not that they don't think I'm capable of hiking, but they said the terrain really probably wasn't that safe for anyone. They managed to break out of the group at the end of the hike and came to get me, and we as an apartment filed a complaint with the disability office against the llc. Technically it wasn't discrimination, but I certainly didn't feel like a part of the community when the fellow and RC failed to consider safety risks that I told them about when they planned for this retreat, and I didn't feel included when no one saw I wasn't awake and didn't just nudge me to see if I wasn't awake. Had I gone on the hike and found it too dangerous, I would have also likely turned back the way I came and not continued with the activity. I know that social justice involves looking at things from other people's perspectives, but it's hard to be supportive of things like that when your own perspectives aren't being considered by those around you. That's kind of like Best Buddies, although it sounds like an organization I could stand by and would like to be a part of, is not one of my top picks for branching out next year. I guess this is a broader issue; the fraternity isn't the only part of campus life I'm having a hard time feeling included in. I understand that as one of 2 blind students out of several thousand that some of this is going to happen, but I felt much more included last year than I do this year, and fear it will get worse next year since in addition to what is going on now, I will be living by myself. On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: > Oops sorry, hit send before I meant too. > > I was just saying I had the luxury of choosing organizations that I > thought would be most beneficial for students. I worked a lot with > Habitat for Humanity as I felt their mission is to work with others on > an equal level, not to treat the people they are serving like charity. > > I'm also blessed to go to a Jesuit institution where working towards > social justice permeates everything we do. A lot of the service we do > here isn't focused on a charity model, but a justice one where you > stand in solidarity with the underprivileged groups that you are > serving. I agree that sometimes non-disability groups can be more > open-minded because you don't have any of the prejudices that exist in > disability related groups. Unfortunately though, I think this problem > is universal,not just in service groups or student organizations. Take > the recent discussion we had on the NFB and feeling excluded or judged > because you don't live up to a certain standard of being blind. > > > > On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I definitely agree with you. I guess I'm speaking from my own >> extensive experience with service back in high school as well as >> college. In HS, I was president of National Honors Society and I had >> to plan all the service events for the group, so I had the luxury of >> choosing the organizations that I want >> >> On 4/7/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't >>> always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to >>> volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for >>> children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not >>> allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, >>> but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't >>> motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members of >>> their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of any >>> service group and see if it's one that really cares about empowering >>> people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or generating >>> sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity or sympathy to >>> raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not be a good one for >>> a blind person to join and be fully included. My synagogue growing up >>> had a youth group that had volunteers staff a retreat for kids from >>> low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" >>> children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at >>> getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of >>> things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some >>> of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone to >>> be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My sister >>> worked the camp and she said that during one activity when the kids >>> were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of them said >>> they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so sad that they >>> never could do that since the camp recruited counselors from our >>> wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income areas where these kids >>> lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my point is that some service >>> groups unfortunately thrive on highlighting the differences between >>> the people who serve and the people who are served, when in reality I >>> think people who receive service should be allowed and invited to give >>> it back. An organization that empowers people rather than keeping them >>> down in order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive >>> of blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be >>> folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you >>> run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and >>> you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, >>> non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help >>> the disabled. Just my thoughts. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: >>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>> >>>> I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of >>>> student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need >>>> accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most >>>> important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can >>>> and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision >>>> to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, >>>> people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all >>>> accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its >>>> inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you >>>> couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in >>>> now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever >>>> is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know >>>> clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to >>>> them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to >>>> make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other >>>> universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an >>>> awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just >>>> interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not >>>> weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, >>>> even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This >>>> could be something you might try to meet more people. And the >>>> suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are >>>> great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are >>>> generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized >>>> populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. >>>> >>>> Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive >>>> is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and >>>> better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to >>>> existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the >>>> latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder >>>> someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This >>>> could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just >>>> know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >>>>> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >>>>> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is >>>>> not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because >>>>> they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to >>>>> class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since >>>>> music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music >>>>> building every day. >>>>> >>>>> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member >>>>> in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, >>>>> since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >>>>> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at >>>>> that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for >>>>> one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to >>>>> help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized >>>>> person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be >>>>> good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started >>>>> asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My >>>>> thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and >>>>> just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told >>>>> not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google >>>>> drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the >>>>> vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work >>>>> with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to >>>>> things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make >>>>> because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier >>>>> software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the >>>>> document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the >>>>> president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make >>>>> it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and >>>>> the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and >>>>> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues >>>>> that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of >>>>> communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to >>>>> changing documents. >>>>> >>>>> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with >>>>> jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting >>>>> text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to >>>>> change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting >>>>> text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester >>>>> would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I >>>>> tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed >>>>> major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been >>>>> responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the >>>>> issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the >>>>> future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the >>>>> semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as >>>>> the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect >>>>> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >>>>> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks >>>>> into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >>>>> >>>>> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in >>>>> there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of >>>>> the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think >>>>> that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they >>>>> obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position >>>>> on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but >>>>> my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it >>>>> seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said >>>>> something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to >>>>> go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll >>>>> be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >>>>> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the >>>>> exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the >>>>> week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had >>>>> going for them was that their online management system was completely >>>>> jaws accessible. >>>>> >>>>> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, >>>>> even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, >>>>> plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer >>>>> attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on >>>>> campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of >>>>> classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff >>>>> because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced >>>>> herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical >>>>> jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, >>>>> since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to >>>>> go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >>>>> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around >>>>> people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my >>>>> things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert >>>>> committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, >>>>> best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to >>>>> younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against >>>>> cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and >>>>> organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all >>>>> relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I >>>>> have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I >>>>> could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't >>>>> this particular one I am in right now. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>>>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >>>>>> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could >>>>>> not >>>>>> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities >>>>>> because >>>>>> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>>>>> documents and such. Lol >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>>>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I >>>>>>>> tried >>>>>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of >>>>>>>> accomidation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>>>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>>>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>>>>> value. >>>>>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>>>>> have, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the >>>>>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to >>>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I >>>>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a >>>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>> better. >>>>>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>>>>> major. >>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the >>>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of >>>>>>>>>> communication >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> fine >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see >>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, >>>>>>>>>> "Oh, >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job >>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>>>>> However, >>>>>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I >>>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>>>>> unable >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really >>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>>>>> year >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>>>>> musical >>>>>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but >>>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> older >>>>>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my >>>>>>>>>> intent >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can >>>>>> reach >>>>>> me >>>>>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From desai.siddhi14 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 09:58:13 2014 From: desai.siddhi14 at gmail.com (siddhi desai) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 15:28:13 +0530 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student Message-ID: Dear all, I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my Ph.D. program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada and Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would be longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services office in University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired people and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability sector in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. Sincerely Siddhi From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 11:36:34 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 07:36:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: <015601cf531e$cc70e9f0$6552bdd0$@gmail.com> Why did you feel much more included last year? Maybe go back and see if some of your mathods would be good for next year. As a college student, I was a lone wolf; drifting from group to group in a campus of 26 thousand. Partially because I knew that it was tough to find a nitch, so I sought no permanent group. It felt as if my presence as a blind person was wearing on the group, or my inability to drive was annoying. I don't think my methods would really work in your context just because your situation and outlook are different. You spend so much time with the music folks, that not being a part of the group is detrimental to your experience in a way that my lack of inclusiveness in any given situation was not. Therefore, I would be hesitant to advise you to leave the group; try really hard over the summer with the exect board to patch up the differences. However, it sounds like it may have gone to far this year; you may not be able to repair it. If that failes, then be ready to find another social outlet, but you did at least try. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 12:38 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs Hi Minh, It's interesting that you bring in social justice to the conversation, because that along with community are things I hear constantly at my university, which is a Marianist college. We have entire living learning communities devoted to social justice, and yet there have been times where I really have not felt like a member of the "community." I had a few really bad roommate experiences both this year and last, and both times when talking about what was bothering me to RAs and RCs, I was told, "Consider it from their point of view," and "Not everyone was brought up the way you were." Some of the things I was speaking about were my roommate bringing guys into the room while I was there and studying (I'm keeping it PG for the list), and the roommates I have this semester leaving messes and expecting me and my direct roommate to act like a maid service. These are things people, out of respect for those around them and that they are sharing spaces with, just won't do. Last year I felt the roommate was doing was brought on by her belief that since I couldn't see what she was doing she could get away with it, and I feel sort of the same way with my roommates this semester. Last semester my living learning community went on a retreat so people could get to know each other, but it really didn't go as planned. My RC and fellow are really lazy with their jobs, so the thing didn't get organized till a month of school was over and people had cliqued up. To force us to meet people we didn't already know, they split apartments up into the 2 cabins, 2 roommates from each apartment in one, and 2 roommates in the other. My direct roommate that semester was a girl from Venezuela who had her group of friends, and my 2 friends I came into the apartment with were put in the other cabin. Because I got turned around in the dark on the way to my cabin and had to spend time waiting for my roommates to come from their cabin and help me locate my own cabin, I missed out on grabbing a lot of the stuff I needed, like a plug so I could charge my phone. My phone died, so I did not wake up to my alarm in the morning. I am the type of person who sleeps with it under my pillow because I don't wake up to even pretty loud noises, and the battery didn't last through the night. I woke up to find everyone in my cabin gone, and an hour had past since the time we were told to meet by the campfire. When I plugged in my phone I called back my roommates who noticed I wasn't at breakfast but were told they had to stay with the group for liability purposes (even though they said I wasn't with the group, so that was a liability purpose if they wanted to be logical about it). When I called them I asked where everyone was, and they told me to stay there because they were hiking through the woods on a very steep and kind of dangerous trail, and were tripping over things themselves. Not that they don't think I'm capable of hiking, but they said the terrain really probably wasn't that safe for anyone. They managed to break out of the group at the end of the hike and came to get me, and we as an apartment filed a complaint with the disability office against the llc. Technically it wasn't discrimination, but I certainly didn't feel like a part of the community when the fellow and RC failed to consider safety risks that I told them about when they planned for this retreat, and I didn't feel included when no one saw I wasn't awake and didn't just nudge me to see if I wasn't awake. Had I gone on the hike and found it too dangerous, I would have also likely turned back the way I came and not continued with the activity. I know that social justice involves looking at things from other people's perspectives, but it's hard to be supportive of things like that when your own perspectives aren't being considered by those around you. That's kind of like Best Buddies, although it sounds like an organization I could stand by and would like to be a part of, is not one of my top picks for branching out next year. I guess this is a broader issue; the fraternity isn't the only part of campus life I'm having a hard time feeling included in. I understand that as one of 2 blind students out of several thousand that some of this is going to happen, but I felt much more included last year than I do this year, and fear it will get worse next year since in addition to what is going on now, I will be living by myself. On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: > Oops sorry, hit send before I meant too. > > I was just saying I had the luxury of choosing organizations that I > thought would be most beneficial for students. I worked a lot with > Habitat for Humanity as I felt their mission is to work with others on > an equal level, not to treat the people they are serving like charity. > > I'm also blessed to go to a Jesuit institution where working towards > social justice permeates everything we do. A lot of the service we do > here isn't focused on a charity model, but a justice one where you > stand in solidarity with the underprivileged groups that you are > serving. I agree that sometimes non-disability groups can be more > open-minded because you don't have any of the prejudices that exist in > disability related groups. Unfortunately though, I think this problem > is universal,not just in service groups or student organizations. Take > the recent discussion we had on the NFB and feeling excluded or judged > because you don't live up to a certain standard of being blind. > > > > On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I definitely agree with you. I guess I'm speaking from my own >> extensive experience with service back in high school as well as >> college. In HS, I was president of National Honors Society and I had >> to plan all the service events for the group, so I had the luxury of >> choosing the organizations that I want >> >> On 4/7/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't >>> always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to >>> volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for >>> children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not >>> allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, >>> but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't >>> motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members >>> of their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of >>> any service group and see if it's one that really cares about >>> empowering people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or >>> generating sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity >>> or sympathy to raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not >>> be a good one for a blind person to join and be fully included. My >>> synagogue growing up had a youth group that had volunteers staff a >>> retreat for kids from low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" >>> children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at >>> getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of >>> things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some >>> of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone >>> to be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My >>> sister worked the camp and she said that during one activity when >>> the kids were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of >>> them said they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so >>> sad that they never could do that since the camp recruited >>> counselors from our wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income >>> areas where these kids lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my >>> point is that some service groups unfortunately thrive on >>> highlighting the differences between the people who serve and the >>> people who are served, when in reality I think people who receive >>> service should be allowed and invited to give it back. An >>> organization that empowers people rather than keeping them down in >>> order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive of >>> blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be >>> folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you >>> run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and >>> you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, >>> non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help the disabled. Just my thoughts. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: >>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>> >>>> I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part >>>> of student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we >>>> need accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The >>>> most important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what >>>> you can and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using >>>> your vision to do the best that you could with the google >>>> docs/spreadsheets, people in your fraternity had the mistaken >>>> impression that it is all accessible to you, and when you couldn't >>>> perform your tasks due to its inherent inaccessibility, they were >>>> really confused at why you couldn't suddenly do your job. With the >>>> organizations that I am in now, I make sure to have a conversation >>>> with the president or whoever is in charge of the communication >>>> system beforehand and let them know clearly what my needs are. I >>>> have found that once I explain things to them in a way they can >>>> sort of understand, they are more willing to make changes on my >>>> behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other universities, but >>>> at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an awesome way to get >>>> to know members of an organizations or just interesting people on >>>> campus on a more personal level. Like it's not weird here to say to >>>> someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, even if you only >>>> know them a little bit through a student org. This could be >>>> something you might try to meet more people. And the suggestions >>>> you gave about other organizations you could join are great ones; I >>>> think community service groups like Best Buddies are generally more >>>> accepting just because they work with marginalized populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. >>>> >>>> Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google >>>> drive is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting >>>> better and better every day and I have actually managed to read and >>>> add things to existing documents that people send me. I am using >>>> Jaws 14 with the latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a >>>> shared folder someone send me, choose a document and read it as >>>> well as edit. This could be something that you look into. I hope >>>> all this helps, and just know everything will work out and that >>>> they're going to get better. :) >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >>>>> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >>>>> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it >>>>> is not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there >>>>> because they have a sincere interest in music. These are the >>>>> people I go to class with, and spend the majority of my time with >>>>> in general since music students spend at least 75 percent of their >>>>> time in the music building every day. >>>>> >>>>> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my >>>>> member in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting >>>>> of the year, since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >>>>> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions >>>>> at that time, and several people said they thought I would be good >>>>> for one which involves keeping records straight and organizing >>>>> people to help out at events for the music department. Being a >>>>> pretty organized person and good with computers, I agreed that >>>>> this position would be good for me, and signed myself up. I was >>>>> appointed, and started asking questions over the summer about how >>>>> I could make it work. My thought was that I could have an excel >>>>> spreadsheet on my laptop, and just make sure I brought it to all >>>>> the chapter meetings. I was told not to do this, because the >>>>> chapter already had everything on google drive. I was given a >>>>> link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the vision I had to >>>>> make the form. I've managed to make this job work with the amount >>>>> of vision I have, but I still don't have access to things like our >>>>> calendar, and forms that I personally did not make because I don't >>>>> know the layout of them, and using my magnifier software can be >>>>> very confusing if I don't know the layout of the document. I know >>>>> when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the president probably >>>>> just didn't understand, and that since I could make it work my >>>>> inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and the job >>>>> honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and >>>>> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility >>>>> issues that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a >>>>> lack of communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to changing documents. >>>>> >>>>> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them >>>>> with jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem >>>>> with getting text coppies of the documents is that they're always >>>>> subject to change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how >>>>> effective getting text coppies of calendars and such at the >>>>> beginning of the semester would be if things are constantly being >>>>> moved around and modified. I tried to talk to our current >>>>> president, but since she's a music ed major who is student >>>>> teaching this semester, she hasn't really been responsive to this >>>>> issue. I have let our new president know of the issues, and told >>>>> her that I really just want to problem-solve for the future, but >>>>> there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the semester >>>>> anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as the >>>>> new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect >>>>> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >>>>> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >>>>> >>>>> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no >>>>> one in there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a >>>>> part of the group as a whole because even those who know me well >>>>> seem to think that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, >>>>> and they obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected >>>>> to a position on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a >>>>> little personally, but my roommate was elected to serve as the >>>>> chapter's treasurer, and it seems like she's always saying things >>>>> about exec board. E.G, she said something in passing when we were >>>>> having a conversation about when to go grocery shopping, and she >>>>> said, "How about this day, because we'll be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >>>>> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know >>>>> the exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day >>>>> of the week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I >>>>> left had going for them was that their online management system >>>>> was completely jaws accessible. >>>>> >>>>> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch >>>>> out, even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current >>>>> roommate, plus another who I was even closer to. The latter >>>>> roommate no longer attends my university, and she was kind of like >>>>> my closest friend on campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman >>>>> year, had a bunch of classes together, she already was cool about >>>>> the blindness stuff because her grandmother had macular >>>>> degeneration, so she introduced herself and we got really close, >>>>> and still are from a geographical jdistance). Next year I will be >>>>> living in an apartment by myself, since my other roommate will be >>>>> commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >>>>> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be >>>>> around people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I >>>>> keep my things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the >>>>> campus concert committee, which brings a concert from a well-known >>>>> band to campus, best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs >>>>> college students to younger students with developmental >>>>> disabilities, or colleges against cancer, which raises awareness >>>>> for the American Cancer Society and organizes Relay for Life on >>>>> campus. I think these things are all relevant to my major, and >>>>> also things I could see myself enjoying. I have good >>>>> communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I could >>>>> still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't this particular one I am in right now. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>>>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because >>>>>> of political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and >>>>>> could not accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for >>>>>> sororities because of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I >>>>>>> mean >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>>>>> documents and such. Lol >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>>>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I >>>>>>>> tried >>>>>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of >>>>>>>> accomidation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>>>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>>>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>>>>> value. >>>>>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>>>>> have, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the >>>>>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to >>>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I >>>>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a >>>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>> better. >>>>>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>>>>> major. >>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the >>>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of >>>>>>>>>> communication >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> fine >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see >>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, >>>>>>>>>> "Oh, >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job >>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>>>>> However, >>>>>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I >>>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>>>>> unable >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really >>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>>>>> year >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>>>>> musical >>>>>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but >>>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> older >>>>>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my >>>>>>>>>> intent >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can >>>>>> reach >>>>>> me >>>>>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 15:11:48 2014 From: twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com (Tamika Williams) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 10:11:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with declaring my major In-Reply-To: <001801cf52c6$a235c9b0$e6a15d10$@mediacombb.net> References: <001801cf52c6$a235c9b0$e6a15d10$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: Thanks for your suggestions Laurel. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 7, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Loren Wakefield" wrote: > > The main question or first one you should ask yourself is what excites me > the most? If money, technology, or anything else was not an issue, what > would you love to do. It also should be said that you won't necessarily do > that for the rest of your working years. Most people change careers two or > three times. It sounds cliché, but figure out what it is you want to do, > and then the how will follow. > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tamika Williams > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 11:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Help with declaring my major > > Hi NABS, > > My name is Tamika Williams and I live in the state of Alabama. Next semester > I will be a junior in college at the University of South Alabama. Therefore, > I am coming to a point where I have to declare my major. Within a couple of > semesters, I will be done with all my prerequirements for Business > Administration. However, I am still a bit uncertain about which major I > would like to declare. My three areas of consideration are Accounting, > General Management, or Entrepreneurship. > So I have two questions for you guys. They are as follows: > > 1. Are you in either of these fields of study or do you know anybody that > is? Will you or your other relevant source be willing to talk to me off list > so that you could give me a little mor insight on these areas? > > 2. What jobs do you guys know of that could be done with these degrees by a > totally blind person with reasonable accomodations? Sorry, I know that is a > broad question, but I am just looking for those that stands out the most to > you. > > Any pertinent questions, recommendations, or comments are very much > appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Tamika Williams > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Apr 8 18:40:32 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 11:40:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140408112713.0207ebe8@comcast.net> Good morning, Siddhi, Well, You don't need to embrace an organizational model of blind things when in fact, as blind people, experience has shown us much of what we need to know about blindness. As for support, your fellow blind brothers and sisters can show you what has worked for them, as well as what hasn't. said I would suggest meeting all kinds of blind people for a diversity of experience, such peers ought to turn you on to what resources and strategies they find helpful, as well as other practical tips and tricks. So, tell me Siddhi, are you here yet? I'd love to be your friend, if you'll have me. I am from Berkeley, California. 408-209-3239 :58 AM 4/8/2014, you wrote: >Dear all, > >I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my >Ph.D. program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like >Canada and Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. >However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would >be longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services >office in University, which organisations in USA exists for visually >impaired people and how should i contact them? I have no notion >regarding disability sector in USA so detailed answers would be >helpful for me. > >Sincerely >Siddhi > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 8 19:29:50 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 15:29:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net><5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> Message-ID: <275A140074E245AC94C9053C18B9BE55@OwnerPC> Min, How cool to go to a university with social justice principles. I attended a catholic university which also aspoused social justice and faith tied to fellowship; I did some of the service projects and bible study. I felt fairly included. What was your experience with habitat for humanity? They have the residents of the home participate in building the home performing what they call sweat equity so they don't subscribe to the handout model and look down on those they serve. Also, I don't like participating in disability groups for the same reasons. Not that we have this where I went to school, but Ii f we did, I would not. Besides I don't like advertising I'm disabled; I feel like there are tons of interest groups besides a disability group that I'd fit into. If you were president and could choose what you wanted to do, this is very beneficial. Wow, you did a lot in hs to be president of honor society. Anyway, good discussion Ashley -----Original Message----- From: minh ha Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 12:12 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs Oops sorry, hit send before I meant too. I was just saying I had the luxury of choosing organizations that I thought would be most beneficial for students. I worked a lot with Habitat for Humanity as I felt their mission is to work with others on an equal level, not to treat the people they are serving like charity. I'm also blessed to go to a Jesuit institution where working towards social justice permeates everything we do. A lot of the service we do here isn't focused on a charity model, but a justice one where you stand in solidarity with the underprivileged groups that you are serving. I agree that sometimes non-disability groups can be more open-minded because you don't have any of the prejudices that exist in disability related groups. Unfortunately though, I think this problem is universal,not just in service groups or student organizations. Take the recent discussion we had on the NFB and feeling excluded or judged because you don't live up to a certain standard of being blind. On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: > Arielle, > > I definitely agree with you. I guess I'm speaking from my own > extensive experience with service back in high school as well as > college. In HS, I was president of National Honors Society and I had > to plan all the service events for the group, so I had the luxury of > choosing the organizations that I want > > On 4/7/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't >> always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to >> volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for >> children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not >> allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, >> but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't >> motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members of >> their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of any >> service group and see if it's one that really cares about empowering >> people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or generating >> sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity or sympathy to >> raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not be a good one for >> a blind person to join and be fully included. My synagogue growing up >> had a youth group that had volunteers staff a retreat for kids from >> low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" >> children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at >> getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of >> things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some >> of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone to >> be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My sister >> worked the camp and she said that during one activity when the kids >> were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of them said >> they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so sad that they >> never could do that since the camp recruited counselors from our >> wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income areas where these kids >> lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my point is that some service >> groups unfortunately thrive on highlighting the differences between >> the people who serve and the people who are served, when in reality I >> think people who receive service should be allowed and invited to give >> it back. An organization that empowers people rather than keeping them >> down in order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive >> of blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be >> folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you >> run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and >> you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, >> non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help >> the disabled. Just my thoughts. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: >>> Hi Kaiti, >>> >>> I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of >>> student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need >>> accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most >>> important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can >>> and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision >>> to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, >>> people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all >>> accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its >>> inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you >>> couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in >>> now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever >>> is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know >>> clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to >>> them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to >>> make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other >>> universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an >>> awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just >>> interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not >>> weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, >>> even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This >>> could be something you might try to meet more people. And the >>> suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are >>> great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are >>> generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized >>> populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. >>> >>> Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive >>> is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and >>> better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to >>> existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the >>> latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder >>> someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This >>> could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just >>> know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Minh >>> >>> On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >>>> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >>>> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is >>>> not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because >>>> they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to >>>> class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since >>>> music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music >>>> building every day. >>>> >>>> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member >>>> in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, >>>> since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >>>> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at >>>> that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for >>>> one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to >>>> help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized >>>> person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be >>>> good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started >>>> asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My >>>> thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and >>>> just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told >>>> not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google >>>> drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the >>>> vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work >>>> with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to >>>> things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make >>>> because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier >>>> software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the >>>> document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the >>>> president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make >>>> it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and >>>> the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and >>>> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues >>>> that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of >>>> communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to >>>> changing documents. >>>> >>>> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with >>>> jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting >>>> text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to >>>> change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting >>>> text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester >>>> would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I >>>> tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed >>>> major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been >>>> responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the >>>> issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the >>>> future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the >>>> semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as >>>> the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect >>>> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >>>> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks >>>> into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >>>> >>>> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in >>>> there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of >>>> the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think >>>> that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they >>>> obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position >>>> on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but >>>> my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it >>>> seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said >>>> something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to >>>> go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll >>>> be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >>>> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the >>>> exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the >>>> week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had >>>> going for them was that their online management system was completely >>>> jaws accessible. >>>> >>>> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, >>>> even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, >>>> plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer >>>> attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on >>>> campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of >>>> classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff >>>> because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced >>>> herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical >>>> jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, >>>> since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to >>>> go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >>>> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around >>>> people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my >>>> things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert >>>> committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, >>>> best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to >>>> younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against >>>> cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and >>>> organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all >>>> relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I >>>> have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I >>>> could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't >>>> this particular one I am in right now. >>>> >>>> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >>>>> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could >>>>> not >>>>> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities because >>>>> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>>>> Beth >>>>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean if >>>>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>>>> documents and such. Lol >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I tried >>>>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the experience >>>>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of >>>>>>> accomidation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>>>> value. >>>>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>>>> have, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti >>>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a community >>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the >>>>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to see >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I >>>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a >>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>> better. >>>>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>>>> major. >>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the >>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of >>>>>>>>> communication >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things work >>>>>>>>> fine >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see >>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, "Oh, >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job very >>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>>>> However, >>>>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I >>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>>>> unable >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really wanted >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>>>> year >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>>>> musical >>>>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but >>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; the >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> older >>>>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my >>>>>>>>> intent >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>> life." >>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can >>>>> reach >>>>> me >>>>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From blacklotus86 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 20:05:45 2014 From: blacklotus86 at gmail.com (zeynep sule yilmaz) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 15:05:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140408112713.0207ebe8@comcast.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20140408112713.0207ebe8@comcast.net> Message-ID: Siddhi, Congrats for your Ph.D admission. As an international student, I would be very happy to help you for whatever information that you are looking for. You can email me or add my Skype address. My Skype address is blacklotus2 and if you need my phone number, I can email that too. Congratulations again! Zeynep 2014-04-08 13:40 GMT-05:00, Carly Mihalakis : > Good morning, Siddhi, > > Well, You don't need to embrace an organizational model of > blind things when in fact, as blind people, experience has shown us > much of what we need to know about blindness. As for support, your > fellow blind brothers and sisters can show you what has worked for > them, as well as what hasn't. said I would suggest meeting all kinds > of blind people for a diversity of experience, such peers ought to > turn you on to what resources and strategies they find helpful, as > well as other practical tips and tricks. > So, tell me Siddhi, are you here yet? I'd love to be your friend, if > you'll have me. I am from Berkeley, California. > 408-209-3239 > > > :58 AM 4/8/2014, you wrote: >>Dear all, >> >>I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my >>Ph.D. program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like >>Canada and Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. >>However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would >>be longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services >>office in University, which organisations in USA exists for visually >>impaired people and how should i contact them? I have no notion >>regarding disability sector in USA so detailed answers would be >>helpful for me. >> >>Sincerely >>Siddhi >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86%40gmail.com > From ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 21:34:12 2014 From: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com (Ryan Bishop) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 14:34:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, What University were you excepted to? It may be easier knowing that who to put you in contact with. Feel free to contact me off list if you don't feel comfortable putting that here. My information can be found in the signature below! Ryan Ryan Bishop Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com 480-221-5195 Secretary Arizona Association of blind students http://az.nfb.org/aabs Webmaster National Federation of the Blind of Arizona http://az.nfb.org Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the Blind today! For more information, please visit: http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind person has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical nuisance. Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of siddhi desai Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 02:58 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] An international student Dear all, I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my Ph.D. program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada and Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would be longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services office in University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired people and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability sector in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. Sincerely Siddhi _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co m --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 23:16:25 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 19:16:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: <275A140074E245AC94C9053C18B9BE55@OwnerPC> References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> <275A140074E245AC94C9053C18B9BE55@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I had a really awesome experience with Habitat. My friends and I got to know the family we were working with pretty well and by the end, it felt like I was building a home for my family. They were a totally deaf couple with a ten year old daughter who was also deaf. It made communicating really hard for me because I didn't know sign language and they couldn't even write something down so I could read. My HS has an ASL program though so my friends who knew sign language translated where they could. I love love love Habitat's mission and model and wish I have time right now to work more with them, but I'm over involved as it is. You should definitely work with them if you can. On 4/8/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Min, > How cool to go to a university with social justice principles. I attended a > > catholic university which also aspoused social justice and faith tied to > fellowship; I did some of the service projects and bible study. I felt > fairly included. > > What was your experience with habitat for humanity? They have the residents > > of the home participate in building the home performing what they call sweat > > equity so they don't subscribe to the handout model and look down on those > they serve. > Also, I don't like participating in disability groups for the same reasons. > > Not that we have this where I went to school, but Ii f we did, I would > not. > Besides I don't like advertising I'm disabled; I feel like there are tons of > > interest groups besides a disability group that I'd fit into. > If you were president and could choose what you wanted to do, this is very > beneficial. Wow, you did a lot in hs to be president of honor society. > > Anyway, good discussion > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: minh ha > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 12:12 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs > > Oops sorry, hit send before I meant too. > > I was just saying I had the luxury of choosing organizations that I > thought would be most beneficial for students. I worked a lot with > Habitat for Humanity as I felt their mission is to work with others on > an equal level, not to treat the people they are serving like charity. > > I'm also blessed to go to a Jesuit institution where working towards > social justice permeates everything we do. A lot of the service we do > here isn't focused on a charity model, but a justice one where you > stand in solidarity with the underprivileged groups that you are > serving. I agree that sometimes non-disability groups can be more > open-minded because you don't have any of the prejudices that exist in > disability related groups. Unfortunately though, I think this problem > is universal,not just in service groups or student organizations. Take > the recent discussion we had on the NFB and feeling excluded or judged > because you don't live up to a certain standard of being blind. > > > > On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I definitely agree with you. I guess I'm speaking from my own >> extensive experience with service back in high school as well as >> college. In HS, I was president of National Honors Society and I had >> to plan all the service events for the group, so I had the luxury of >> choosing the organizations that I want >> >> On 4/7/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't >>> always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to >>> volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for >>> children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not >>> allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, >>> but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't >>> motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members of >>> their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of any >>> service group and see if it's one that really cares about empowering >>> people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or generating >>> sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity or sympathy to >>> raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not be a good one for >>> a blind person to join and be fully included. My synagogue growing up >>> had a youth group that had volunteers staff a retreat for kids from >>> low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" >>> children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at >>> getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of >>> things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some >>> of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone to >>> be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My sister >>> worked the camp and she said that during one activity when the kids >>> were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of them said >>> they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so sad that they >>> never could do that since the camp recruited counselors from our >>> wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income areas where these kids >>> lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my point is that some service >>> groups unfortunately thrive on highlighting the differences between >>> the people who serve and the people who are served, when in reality I >>> think people who receive service should be allowed and invited to give >>> it back. An organization that empowers people rather than keeping them >>> down in order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive >>> of blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be >>> folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you >>> run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and >>> you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, >>> non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help >>> the disabled. Just my thoughts. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: >>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>> >>>> I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of >>>> student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need >>>> accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most >>>> important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can >>>> and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision >>>> to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, >>>> people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all >>>> accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its >>>> inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you >>>> couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in >>>> now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever >>>> is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know >>>> clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to >>>> them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to >>>> make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other >>>> universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an >>>> awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just >>>> interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not >>>> weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, >>>> even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This >>>> could be something you might try to meet more people. And the >>>> suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are >>>> great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are >>>> generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized >>>> populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. >>>> >>>> Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive >>>> is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and >>>> better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to >>>> existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the >>>> latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder >>>> someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This >>>> could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just >>>> know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >>>>> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >>>>> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is >>>>> not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because >>>>> they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to >>>>> class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since >>>>> music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music >>>>> building every day. >>>>> >>>>> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member >>>>> in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the year, >>>>> since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >>>>> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at >>>>> that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for >>>>> one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to >>>>> help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty organized >>>>> person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be >>>>> good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started >>>>> asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My >>>>> thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and >>>>> just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told >>>>> not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google >>>>> drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the >>>>> vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work >>>>> with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to >>>>> things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make >>>>> because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier >>>>> software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the >>>>> document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the >>>>> president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could make >>>>> it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and >>>>> the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, and >>>>> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues >>>>> that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of >>>>> communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to >>>>> changing documents. >>>>> >>>>> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them with >>>>> jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with getting >>>>> text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to >>>>> change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective getting >>>>> text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester >>>>> would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I >>>>> tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed >>>>> major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been >>>>> responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the >>>>> issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the >>>>> future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the >>>>> semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as >>>>> the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I expect >>>>> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >>>>> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks >>>>> into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >>>>> >>>>> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one in >>>>> there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of >>>>> the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to think >>>>> that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they >>>>> obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position >>>>> on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, but >>>>> my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it >>>>> seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said >>>>> something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to >>>>> go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll >>>>> be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >>>>> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the >>>>> exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the >>>>> week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had >>>>> going for them was that their online management system was completely >>>>> jaws accessible. >>>>> >>>>> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, >>>>> even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, >>>>> plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer >>>>> attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on >>>>> campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of >>>>> classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff >>>>> because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced >>>>> herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical >>>>> jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, >>>>> since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to >>>>> go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >>>>> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be around >>>>> people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my >>>>> things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert >>>>> committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, >>>>> best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students to >>>>> younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against >>>>> cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and >>>>> organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all >>>>> relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I >>>>> have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I >>>>> could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it isn't >>>>> this particular one I am in right now. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>>>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >>>>>> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could >>>>>> not >>>>>> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities >>>>>> because >>>>>> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>>>>> documents and such. Lol >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, my >>>>>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I >>>>>>>> tried >>>>>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of >>>>>>>> accomidation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so I >>>>>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone in >>>>>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>>>>> value. >>>>>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>>>>> have, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the >>>>>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made by >>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to >>>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I >>>>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a >>>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>> better. >>>>>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>>>>> major. >>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the >>>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of >>>>>>>>>> communication >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> fine >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see >>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, >>>>>>>>>> "Oh, >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job >>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>>>>> However, >>>>>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I >>>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>>>>> unable >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really >>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>>>>> year >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>>>>> musical >>>>>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position should >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but >>>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in classes, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> older >>>>>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my >>>>>>>>>> intent >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can >>>>>> reach >>>>>> me >>>>>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 23:49:35 2014 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 16:49:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Siddhi, First, congratulations! I think that reaching out to networks of blind students will really help you so I'd say you're off to a good start! If you tell us where you will be studying, I will check my network and connect you with local blind students if I know any. I work with my state's department of services for the blind. They assist me in purchasing blindness-related equipment such as screen reader software and are able to provide training if I need to increase my skills using a particular technology. They are also often able to provide some orientation and mobility services around your new campus. However, I have found that networking with blind people in the area has given me a much better idea of the layout of an area than working with an instructor. However, the option could be there. The only caveat is that these services are often available to U.S. citizens. I am less familiar with services offered to anyone. In Seattle, a business with a nonprofit foundation, the Lighthouse for the Blind, does offer some O&M instruction to anyone who needs it based on a contract they have with Metro Transit, our public transit agency. Other cities have similar nonprofits, but they are often diverse in what services they provide and how many of the services you can take advantage of. Cindy On 4/8/14, Ryan Bishop wrote: > Hello, > What University were you excepted to? It may be easier knowing that who to > put you in contact with. Feel free to contact me off list if you don't feel > comfortable putting that here. My information can be found in the signature > below! > Ryan > > > Ryan Bishop > Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com > 480-221-5195 > Secretary > Arizona Association of blind students > http://az.nfb.org/aabs > Webmaster > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona > http://az.nfb.org > Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax > deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the Blind > today! For more information, please visit: > http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org > or call > 1-855-659-9314 > > The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is > the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind person > has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical nuisance. > > Confidentiality Notice: > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to > individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended recipient, > please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the > original message. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of siddhi desai > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 02:58 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] An international student > > Dear all, > > I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my Ph.D. > program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada and > Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. > However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would be > longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services office in > University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired people > and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability sector > in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. > > Sincerely > Siddhi > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co > m > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From filerime at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 00:12:48 2014 From: filerime at gmail.com (Elif Emir) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 20:12:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HelloSiddhi, Congrats for your Ph.d. I'm also an international student here. The first thing I'll recommend you to contact your university's disability support unit. They will provide required assistant related to your education. Providing accessible text book is one of the basic services that you'll be having. Further services differs depending on your school. It's good to bring an official document as a prouf of your disability. The university and the other city units will ask you for it before provide any services. Having two or three official copies can be good. Since eye care is not included in most of the health insurance, having a prouf of document can be expensive here. I also suggest you to contact with your school's disability services ASAP, since they need some time to make arrangements. If you have any other questions, you're always very welcome. 2014-04-08 19:49 GMT-04:00, Cindy Bennett : > Hi Siddhi, > > First, congratulations! > > I think that reaching out to networks of blind students will really > help you so I'd say you're off to a good start! If you tell us where > you will be studying, I will check my network and connect you with > local blind students if I know any. > > I work with my state's department of services for the blind. They > assist me in purchasing blindness-related equipment such as screen > reader software and are able to provide training if I need to increase > my skills using a particular technology. They are also often able to > provide some orientation and mobility services around your new campus. > However, I have found that networking with blind people in the area > has given me a much better idea of the layout of an area than working > with an instructor. However, the option could be there. The only > caveat is that these services are often available to U.S. citizens. I > am less familiar with services offered to anyone. > > In Seattle, a business with a nonprofit foundation, the Lighthouse for > the Blind, does offer some O&M instruction to anyone who needs it > based on a contract they have with Metro Transit, our public transit > agency. Other cities have similar nonprofits, but they are often > diverse in what services they provide and how many of the services you > can take advantage of. > > Cindy > > On 4/8/14, Ryan Bishop wrote: >> Hello, >> What University were you excepted to? It may be easier knowing that who >> to >> put you in contact with. Feel free to contact me off list if you don't >> feel >> comfortable putting that here. My information can be found in the >> signature >> below! >> Ryan >> >> >> Ryan Bishop >> Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com >> 480-221-5195 >> Secretary >> Arizona Association of blind students >> http://az.nfb.org/aabs >> Webmaster >> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >> http://az.nfb.org >> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax >> deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the >> Blind >> today! For more information, please visit: >> http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org >> or call >> 1-855-659-9314 >> >> The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is >> the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind >> person >> has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical >> nuisance. >> >> Confidentiality Notice: >> This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of >> the >> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged >> information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to >> individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended >> recipient, >> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the >> original message. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of siddhi desai >> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 02:58 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] An international student >> >> Dear all, >> >> I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my Ph.D. >> program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada and >> Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. >> However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would be >> longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services office >> in >> University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired >> people >> and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability >> sector >> in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. >> >> Sincerely >> Siddhi >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co >> m >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 04:49:56 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 00:49:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs In-Reply-To: References: <023501cf523b$5eafa070$1c0ee150$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140407020835.07f2e9b0@comcast.net> <5342EC7F.7020609@comcast.net> <275A140074E245AC94C9053C18B9BE55@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi, Yeah, it is really helpful when the person who primarily needs things to be accessible is the one in charge. That way universal design is almost always thought of. I have had similar experiences; I was president of Future Educators of America for a while, and really was able to give some serious thought to how activities we did could be adapted if necessary to suit kids with special needs. We did a Dr. Seus day, and an end-of-the-year carnival for them, and also wrote letters from Santa's elves for a first grade class to receive. I was able to tell my board, "Remember to print your letters so the kids will be able to read it more easily, and make them big so I can see the writing too," and "Let's be sure to bring backup plans for students who may not be able to do the activity exactly as we've planned." Minh, I've had a similar situation when I wanted to communicate with a deaf person, and found it really challenging too. I know a little pigeon, which is basically a form of sign language which uses only the word signs without finger spelling, so I know enough to get by with my end of the conversation and a deaf person would be able to understand what I'm telling them. The issue is just getting it back to me. One of my classmates had her dad come in to speak to music therapy club last semester, because he is deaf himself. He started teaching the club some signs I didn't know, so I really wanted to learn them. People around me were trying to help when they could, but it was difficult because they were trying to do the signs themselves too. I went up to the guy and we talked about it. Granted, it was a little easier because he knew how to read lips and could also speak really well, but he helped me to learn the sign language for "Sorry, I can't see you," so I could let a deaf person know if it wasn't obvious, and then he said the best way to handle a conversation would be to use any signs I know, (HE also taught me to say "I don't know much sign language,") and then have the deaf person finger spell back if they couldn't speak. If at least one person can use the signing for more fluent conversation, it makes the whole thing a little less time consuming for everyone involved. It was really cool talking to him though, because after he helped me with that he took an interest in my notetaker, and wanted to know about it. The blind student was asking about sign language, and the deaf guy about braille, and we both learned. I wish more conversations like that could happen in organizations on campus, because I thinik it is important for us to learn things about people with other disabilities, (nondisabled students especially, but us too), and it was just a really cool conversation in general. Anyway, I'm rambling, so I'll stop while I can now. :) On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: > I had a really awesome experience with Habitat. My friends and I got > to know the family we were working with pretty well and by the end, it > felt like I was building a home for my family. They were a totally > deaf couple with a ten year old daughter who was also deaf. It made > communicating really hard for me because I didn't know sign language > and they couldn't even write something down so I could read. My HS has > an ASL program though so my friends who knew sign language translated > where they could. I love love love Habitat's mission and model and > wish I have time right now to work more with them, but I'm over > involved as it is. You should definitely work with them if you can. > > On 4/8/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Min, >> How cool to go to a university with social justice principles. I attended >> a >> >> catholic university which also aspoused social justice and faith tied to >> fellowship; I did some of the service projects and bible study. I felt >> fairly included. >> >> What was your experience with habitat for humanity? They have the >> residents >> >> of the home participate in building the home performing what they call >> sweat >> >> equity so they don't subscribe to the handout model and look down on >> those >> they serve. >> Also, I don't like participating in disability groups for the same >> reasons. >> >> Not that we have this where I went to school, but Ii f we did, I would >> not. >> Besides I don't like advertising I'm disabled; I feel like there are tons >> of >> >> interest groups besides a disability group that I'd fit into. >> If you were president and could choose what you wanted to do, this is >> very >> beneficial. Wow, you did a lot in hs to be president of honor society. >> >> Anyway, good discussion >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: minh ha >> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 12:12 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >> >> Oops sorry, hit send before I meant too. >> >> I was just saying I had the luxury of choosing organizations that I >> thought would be most beneficial for students. I worked a lot with >> Habitat for Humanity as I felt their mission is to work with others on >> an equal level, not to treat the people they are serving like charity. >> >> I'm also blessed to go to a Jesuit institution where working towards >> social justice permeates everything we do. A lot of the service we do >> here isn't focused on a charity model, but a justice one where you >> stand in solidarity with the underprivileged groups that you are >> serving. I agree that sometimes non-disability groups can be more >> open-minded because you don't have any of the prejudices that exist in >> disability related groups. Unfortunately though, I think this problem >> is universal,not just in service groups or student organizations. Take >> the recent discussion we had on the NFB and feeling excluded or judged >> because you don't live up to a certain standard of being blind. >> >> >> >> On 4/8/14, minh ha wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> >>> I definitely agree with you. I guess I'm speaking from my own >>> extensive experience with service back in high school as well as >>> college. In HS, I was president of National Honors Society and I had >>> to plan all the service events for the group, so I had the luxury of >>> choosing the organizations that I want >>> >>> On 4/7/14, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Unfortunately, orgs that work with marginalized populations aren't >>>> always inclusive. My best friend is blind and when she tried to >>>> volunteer for an org that provides therapeutic horseback riding for >>>> children with disabilities, she was treated very rudely and not >>>> allowed to be a volunteer without extensive supervision. It is sad, >>>> but sometimes groups that have a mission of helping others aren't >>>> motivated to include the types of people they help as equal members of >>>> their group. It's important to look closely at the attitudes of any >>>> service group and see if it's one that really cares about empowering >>>> people or if it's more interested in giving handouts or generating >>>> sympathy. For example, I think any group that uses pity or sympathy to >>>> raise funds or attract volunteers will probably not be a good one for >>>> a blind person to join and be fully included. My synagogue growing up >>>> had a youth group that had volunteers staff a retreat for kids from >>>> low-income families, whom they referred to as "under-privileged" >>>> children. I remember hearing their spiel about the retreat, aimed at >>>> getting youth volunteers to be counselors, and they said a lot of >>>> things about how horribly deprived these kids' lives are. While some >>>> of their statements might have been true, I found their whole tone to >>>> be very condescending and it turned me off from signing up. My sister >>>> worked the camp and she said that during one activity when the kids >>>> were talking about their dreams for the future, a bunch of them said >>>> they wanted to be counselors for the camp and it was so sad that they >>>> never could do that since the camp recruited counselors from our >>>> wealthy synagogue and not from the low-income areas where these kids >>>> lived. Going off topic a bit there, but my point is that some service >>>> groups unfortunately thrive on highlighting the differences between >>>> the people who serve and the people who are served, when in reality I >>>> think people who receive service should be allowed and invited to give >>>> it back. An organization that empowers people rather than keeping them >>>> down in order to help them is one that will probably be more inclusive >>>> of blind volunteers. Of course, within any organization there will be >>>> folks who just instinctively get it and others who won't, and if you >>>> run into an org that is intolerant for any reason, keep looking and >>>> you will find another one that is accepting. But in some ways, >>>> non-disability orgs may be more inclusive than those aiming to help >>>> the disabled. Just my thoughts. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/7/14, minh ha wrote: >>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>> >>>>> I totally sympathize with where you are coming from. Being a part of >>>>> student organizations is not an easy thing, especially when we need >>>>> accommodations to participate fully in what's going on. The most >>>>> important thing is setting up clear boundaries regarding what you can >>>>> and cannot do. I'm just thinking that when you were using your vision >>>>> to do the best that you could with the google docs/spreadsheets, >>>>> people in your fraternity had the mistaken impression that it is all >>>>> accessible to you, and when you couldn't perform your tasks due to its >>>>> inherent inaccessibility, they were really confused at why you >>>>> couldn't suddenly do your job. With the organizations that I am in >>>>> now, I make sure to have a conversation with the president or whoever >>>>> is in charge of the communication system beforehand and let them know >>>>> clearly what my needs are. I have found that once I explain things to >>>>> them in a way they can sort of understand, they are more willing to >>>>> make changes on my behalf. I don't know if this is a thing at other >>>>> universities, but at my school "lunch dates" are huge and it's an >>>>> awesome way to get to know members of an organizations or just >>>>> interesting people on campus on a more personal level. Like it's not >>>>> weird here to say to someone, lets grab lunch/coffee/dinner sometime, >>>>> even if you only know them a little bit through a student org. This >>>>> could be something you might try to meet more people. And the >>>>> suggestions you gave about other organizations you could join are >>>>> great ones; I think community service groups like Best Buddies are >>>>> generally more accepting just because they work with marginalized >>>>> populations so they have a better grasp on inclusion. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I'm just wondering what technology you are using? Google drive >>>>> is not the greatest thing to work with, but it's getting better and >>>>> better every day and I have actually managed to read and add things to >>>>> existing documents that people send me. I am using Jaws 14 with the >>>>> latest version of firefox. I can navigate around a shared folder >>>>> someone send me, choose a document and read it as well as edit. This >>>>> could be something that you look into. I hope all this helps, and just >>>>> know everything will work out and that they're going to get better. :) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Minh >>>>> >>>>> On 4/7/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> First, I feel like this fraternity I am in deserves some explanation. >>>>>> It is not your typical sorority which girls join for social reasons. >>>>>> This is a professional music fraternity for women, and although it is >>>>>> not exclusively open to music majors, all members are there because >>>>>> they have a sincere interest in music. These are the people I go to >>>>>> class with, and spend the majority of my time with in general since >>>>>> music students spend at least 75 percent of their time in the music >>>>>> building every day. >>>>>> >>>>>> It was a little difficult, because at the end of last year my member >>>>>> in training class was allowed to come to the last meeting of the >>>>>> year, >>>>>> since we had been initiated and were oficial sisters by that point. >>>>>> We were told we could nominate ourselves for appointed positions at >>>>>> that time, and several people said they thought I would be good for >>>>>> one which involves keeping records straight and organizing people to >>>>>> help out at events for the music department. Being a pretty >>>>>> organized >>>>>> person and good with computers, I agreed that this position would be >>>>>> good for me, and signed myself up. I was appointed, and started >>>>>> asking questions over the summer about how I could make it work. My >>>>>> thought was that I could have an excel spreadsheet on my laptop, and >>>>>> just make sure I brought it to all the chapter meetings. I was told >>>>>> not to do this, because the chapter already had everything on google >>>>>> drive. I was given a link to a google docs spreadsheet, and used the >>>>>> vision I had to make the form. I've managed to make this job work >>>>>> with the amount of vision I have, but I still don't have access to >>>>>> things like our calendar, and forms that I personally did not make >>>>>> because I don't know the layout of them, and using my magnifier >>>>>> software can be very confusing if I don't know the layout of the >>>>>> document. I know when I asked about the excel spreadsheet the >>>>>> president probably just didn't understand, and that since I could >>>>>> make >>>>>> it work my inconvenience was trumped by the need for the chapter, and >>>>>> the job honestly isn't the problem. It has been really difficult, >>>>>> and >>>>>> people have gotten unnecessarily mad at me for accessibility issues >>>>>> that weren't my fault, but the bigger issues are just a lack of >>>>>> communication in general and the fact that I don't have access to >>>>>> changing documents. >>>>>> >>>>>> I get emails when things are posted, but I just can't access them >>>>>> with >>>>>> jaws since they're all on google docs. The other problem with >>>>>> getting >>>>>> text coppies of the documents is that they're always subject to >>>>>> change, and do quite frequently, so I don't know how effective >>>>>> getting >>>>>> text coppies of calendars and such at the beginning of the semester >>>>>> would be if things are constantly being moved around and modified. I >>>>>> tried to talk to our current president, but since she's a music ed >>>>>> major who is student teaching this semester, she hasn't really been >>>>>> responsive to this issue. I have let our new president know of the >>>>>> issues, and told her that I really just want to problem-solve for the >>>>>> future, but there isn't much she can do in the last few weeks of the >>>>>> semester anyway, and technically she still has not been installed as >>>>>> the new president, so I told her that it isn't something that I >>>>>> expect >>>>>> her to turn her attention to right away by any means. I also >>>>>> suggested that it might be something the exec board as a whole looks >>>>>> into, so I expect that we'll talk about it over the summer. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do have some friends in the group, so it isn't like I have no one >>>>>> in >>>>>> there to talk to or feel close to, I just don't feel like a part of >>>>>> the group as a whole because even those who know me well seem to >>>>>> think >>>>>> that I haven't done my job as well as I should have, and they >>>>>> obviously didn't think I should have had gotten elected to a position >>>>>> on exec board. Perhaps I am taking elections a little personally, >>>>>> but >>>>>> my roommate was elected to serve as the chapter's treasurer, and it >>>>>> seems like she's always saying things about exec board. E.G, she said >>>>>> something in passing when we were having a conversation about when to >>>>>> go grocery shopping, and she said, "How about this day, because we'll >>>>>> be out of class early and we won't have exec board to worry about." >>>>>> She knows I don't have any exec board to be a part of, and I know the >>>>>> exec board for our organization does not even meet on that day of the >>>>>> week, so it was just very odd. The one thing the group I left had >>>>>> going for them was that their online management system was completely >>>>>> jaws accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have also considered joining different groups to try to branch out, >>>>>> even if I stay in this one. Last semester I had my current roommate, >>>>>> plus another who I was even closer to. The latter roommate no longer >>>>>> attends my university, and she was kind of like my closest friend on >>>>>> campus. (We lived on the same floor freshman year, had a bunch of >>>>>> classes together, she already was cool about the blindness stuff >>>>>> because her grandmother had macular degeneration, so she introduced >>>>>> herself and we got really close, and still are from a geographical >>>>>> jdistance). Next year I will be living in an apartment by myself, >>>>>> since my other roommate will be commuting and I'm kind of hesitant to >>>>>> go into a random roommate situation due to some negative experiences. >>>>>> However, I am an extroverted person, so I'm going to need to be >>>>>> around >>>>>> people and have my apartment primarily be the place where I keep my >>>>>> things and sleep. I'm thinking of either joining the campus concert >>>>>> committee, which brings a concert from a well-known band to campus, >>>>>> best buddies which is a mentoring club which pairs college students >>>>>> to >>>>>> younger students with developmental disabilities, or colleges against >>>>>> cancer, which raises awareness for the American Cancer Society and >>>>>> organizes Relay for Life on campus. I think these things are all >>>>>> relevant to my major, and also things I could see myself enjoying. I >>>>>> have good communication skills and am pretty organized, so I think I >>>>>> could still be an asset to an organization on campus, even if it >>>>>> isn't >>>>>> this particular one I am in right now. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/7/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>>>>> I hated campus organizations altogether. I joined mainly because of >>>>>>> political motives, but none of those orgs were accessible, and could >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> accommodate me at all. Anyway, I couldn't rush for sororities >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> of blindness and the nonacceptance on campus. >>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>> On 4/7/2014 10:52 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>> Ah "the agenda". I have been officially federationized... I mean >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> you could have some time in a meeting to talk about how you access >>>>>>>> documents and such. Lol >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi Kaiti, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This sounds like my undergrad experience completely. Of course, >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> small liberal arts school didn't have fraternities, but when I >>>>>>>>> tried >>>>>>>>> to get involved with organizations on campus, I had similar >>>>>>>>> experiences. I agree completely with Arielle. Finding one or two >>>>>>>>> people to hang out with in the organization will make the >>>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>>>> so much better for you. Have you asked the leaders if you could >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> a few minutes on the agenda to speak about how you do things like >>>>>>>>> access documents? Maybe if they understand that google docs is >>>>>>>>> inaccessible to you, you will come up with some sort of >>>>>>>>> accomidation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also was friends mainly with those older and younger than I, so >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> seriously understand this. I would recommend talking to someone >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> the organization you trust about your concerns and then consider >>>>>>>>> dropping it if you can't get anywhere. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 4/7/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Good morning, Justin, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Good advice, if you are of a belief that working within >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> system which is, it sounds like, already stacked against you will >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> somehow, effective. >>>>>>>>>> So-called leaders will always have political strings manipulating >>>>>>>>>> their limbs so none of their actions ought to be taken at face >>>>>>>>>> value. >>>>>>>>>> for today, CarAt 01:28 AM 4/7/2014, justin williams wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Have you approached the leaders of the fraternity? I'm sure you >>>>>>>>>>> have, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> just have to at least ask. If so, it does not sound as if they >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> responsive. If not the leaders, then maybe the advisor. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>> Shelton >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 6:31 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Finding a niche in campus orgs >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For the past 2 years I've struggled to find my place in >>>>>>>>>>> organizations >>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> campus. I felt the same way in high school, but here is my >>>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Freshman year I was in a club for my major, as well as a >>>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>>> fraternity. I ended up leaving that fraternity at the end of my >>>>>>>>>>> freshman >>>>>>>>>>> year because of a few things, but mainly because I felt the >>>>>>>>>>> chapter >>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> run >>>>>>>>>>> in a very beaurocratic style, and the same people always did >>>>>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> never let those of us who were on the outside do much. The >>>>>>>>>>> elections >>>>>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>>>>> more like a popularity contest, with really personal digs made >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>>> exec board members against candidates who they did not want to >>>>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>>> exec board positions. Though I didn't run for anything, even as >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> outsider, a member just watching and casting my votes, it left a >>>>>>>>>>> bitter >>>>>>>>>>> taste in my mouth. If that was how it was going to be run, I >>>>>>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> be a part of the organization. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That spring semester I pledged another fraternity that I liked a >>>>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>>> better. >>>>>>>>>>> This one is a professional organization more geared towards my >>>>>>>>>>> major. >>>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> smaller, and still does service, which I like. >>>>>>>>>>> However, I have increasingly felt like I am not a part of the >>>>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>>>> One of the main problems this year has been a lack of >>>>>>>>>>> communication >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> access to the google docs resources. Of course, these things >>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>> fine >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the other 20 members of the chapter who are sighted, but they do >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>> for me. I feel that when I miss a piece of information that was >>>>>>>>>>> posted >>>>>>>>>>> online, or when I don't know to do something because I can't see >>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> are like, "Well, she screwed up again," rather than thinking, >>>>>>>>>>> "Oh, >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> wonder >>>>>>>>>>> if she didn't see it." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This all sounds much more bitter or dramatic than I really feel, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bit frustrated by this. I have good ideas, and can do my job >>>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> know what is expected of me and have the accessibility to do it. >>>>>>>>>>> However, >>>>>>>>>>> with the google docs system, and the lack of communication I >>>>>>>>>>> receive >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> sisters about visual things they just pick up on naturally, I am >>>>>>>>>>> unable >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> contribute in the way I want to. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think my struggles with these things has also impacted me >>>>>>>>>>> socially. >>>>>>>>>>> We had elections a few weeks ago, and I was the only junior who >>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> elected to an exec board position. I ran for 2, and really >>>>>>>>>>> wanted >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> recording secretary position. I feel like the issues I had this >>>>>>>>>>> year >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> made me seem like I am uncapable of carrying out these >>>>>>>>>>> responsibilities >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> my sisters, when they really don't know my situation and never >>>>>>>>>>> asked. >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> specifically chose to run for recording secretary because I have >>>>>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>>> experience with this position, and I also know that the minutes >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> Word Docs and member standing is kept track in a spreadsheet. I >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> run into no technological glitches whatsoever, so this position >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> been great for me. I also gave up membership in other clubs and >>>>>>>>>>> musical >>>>>>>>>>> ensembles in order to make time for an exec board position >>>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> gotten one, so I'm thinking false social perceptions have gotten >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I also feel socially left out sometimes because not all members >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> chapter will talk to me. I mean, I'm certainly not expecting to >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> best >>>>>>>>>>> friends with everyone, but some of them just don't even speak to >>>>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>> isn't a good feeling. And yes, I do try to speak to them. >>>>>>>>>>> They don't openly shun me, and it's not nearly that bad, but >>>>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>>>> something to them they won't say hi, or ask how I'm doing even >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> we're >>>>>>>>>>> sitting next to each other. This is not just a chapter issue; >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> this happens with also don't really socialize with me in >>>>>>>>>>> classes, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>> one of those awkward people who gets along more with people who >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> older >>>>>>>>>>> and younger than her than with students in my year. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I really don't want to sound whiney, because that was not my >>>>>>>>>>> intent >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> all, >>>>>>>>>>> but I'm wondering how people in similar situations got through >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Julie McG >>>>>>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >>>>>>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >>>>>>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >>>>>>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >>>>>>>>> life." >>>>>>>>> John 3:16 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can >>>>>>> reach >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> by skype at denverqueen0920 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kaybaycar at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 15:16:44 2014 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 10:16:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blackboard, Canvas, or Desire 2 Learn Message-ID: Hi friends, Our university is considering moving to a new learning management platform: Blackboard(which we already have), Canvas, or Desire 2 Learn. I have experience with Blackboard and find that although it can be frustrating from a usability stand point, it is pretty accessible. But I would love some feedback from you all about which ones you have used and how accessible you find them. Which screenreader are you using? And I should add that we will be getting the most recent version of whichever one we choose. I appreciate this so much! -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Apr 9 16:23:31 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 09:23:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster In-Reply-To: <530d2a25.a75e8c0a.4226.2c14@mx.google.com> References: <530d2a25.a75e8c0a.4226.2c14@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140409091848.01f263d0@comcast.net> Good morning, sami and everyone, Often in my experience the class won't be disturbed by soft speech. As you may have noticed, the monotonous rhythm of the digitized speech blends in to the background background of whichever room. I too, used to think the sound of my equipment's speech would disturb people, but I have, in recent years let that go. Perhaps, you might consider this, as well? Have a good day, sami! for today, Car 408-209-3239 , Mohamed wrote: >You a bit remind me of what I do. I turn off the speech myself, to >avoid disturbing the class. Yes, I use a stream. Are you using the >second generation stream? Just curious. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: sami osborne To: National Association of Blind Students mailing listDate sent: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 18:28:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > >Hi all. > >I use a BrailleNote Apex for schoolwork and emails. >I know that you guys might think that audio is faster than >Braille, but I turn off the speech on my BrailleNote so as not to >disturb the other kids in my class. >However, I also use a Victor Reader Stream to listen to books, >and its audio qualy, to me, is very good. >I also use a computer with Jaws installed for surfing the web and >for playing games. >I'm not sure what my average braille reading speed is, but now >that you mentioned it, I'll probably test that and see, although >I do know that I'm a fast Braille reader... > >Sami. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Mohamed To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >listDate sent: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 15:18:35 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > >Hi Helga, me, personally, I like audio more. Braille, for me, >is rather slow. I have my BrailleNote sped up to the maximum >speed, rate 16. I just simply like audio more than braille. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date sent: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:36:07 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > >Hi all, this is Helga! I actually use both JAWS and Braille! But >I actually >like braille more than just listening to audio, since I >comprehend more the >college material in Braille! But if I have the Braille copy in my >hand, and >I have the text of it on the computer I learn the material >faster! For >instance, for my Government class I need to learn 19 steps in how >a Bill >becomes a Law. So in that case I use JAWS and the braille copy >of the steps. >Thanks so much for listening to me! God bless! > >-----Original Message----- >From: justin williams >Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:16 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > >Screen reader; I have my jaws up to more than sixty usually. I >may slow it >down to 55 or so when I am reading; I hae pretty good >comprehention because >I read before class. Also, I use learning ally; I speed it up as >much as I >can. Reading your emails I have my jaws on 65 or so. If I am >really >searching for something on the internet, I may speed it up to 70 >or even 80 >for greater speed. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >Jamie >Principato >Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:02 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > >How many hours a night must you spend reading in order to keep up >with and >be successful in your classes? Are you using Braille or a screen >reader? I'd >love to hear everyone weigh in on this. If you don't read for >class every >night, how many hours a week? > >Jamie > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Feb 24, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman >wrote: > >I find it easier to skim in Braille than in audio or E-text. >You can >skim in Braille by looking for indented text, sliding your >fingers >down the leftmost edge of the page looking for spaces where the >text >is indented or centered to indicate a new paragraph or section >heading, or of course, flip to the next physical page. >Also, I'm not sure speed is the end goal, at least not all the >time. >I think a better goal is to achieve a good speed-to-accuracy >ratio. >That is, you want to understand as much as possible in as >little time >as possible. Anyone can put their screen reader on 500 words a >minute >and just breeze through, but if you comprehended less than half >what >was spoken, that's not useful at all. Similarly, carefully >reading in >Braille at 100 words per minute but understanding everything you >read, >and remembering it later so you don't have to re-read right >before the >test, is valuable. >I'm one of those Braille readers who reads very quickly, and >I've >often found, especially as an adult reading denser material and >having >less practice with Braille, that I have to force myself to slow >down >or I start missing stuff. > >Arielle > >On 2/24/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >Good afternoon, Sophie, > > Growing up,I admit, I took braille very much for >granted, >couldn't fathom those blinks I heard about who, didn't read >braille. >Served the Federation's summer program as the braille >instructor, was >a devotee of this page slate I have. Was beginning to learn >Grade 3, >the whole bit. I forgot, in studying Japanese language, I, with >the >help of a key my Dad found for me On-line, began teaching myself >nihongo tenji (Japanese braille) Then, at age 19, I was hit by a >car >which caused severe brain damage, a symptom of which has been >acute >tactile appraxia which for me, refers to an inability of hand to >perceive that which is sent to it via the brain. thus reducing >braille reading pretty much to a very rich and stimulating pipe >dream. And, It isn't about the spacing of the dots, like you >see with >neuropathy people, as if anything was produced in jumbo braille, >anyway. I just don't perceive what my finger feels! >But, I say aoll this to make the point of my also not retaining, >during the time i did use hard copy braille as well as a Braille >Light 40 purchased by the school district and, having no >alternative, >I have forced myself to learn audotorally on the comput as well >as >talking books.... so, it can be possible in case, got help you, >you >find yourself in this way. >for today, Car >408-209-3239 > >Courtney, I have to disagree with you on braille textbooks. I >actually find them more useful than audio textbooks. Granted, >I'm in >high school, so I'm probably not moving at as fast a pace as >college >students, but still. If you read a braille book in an electric >format >with a notetaker (I use a braillenote apex), you can use the >Find >command to search for important keywords if you're trying to >look up >something quickly. You can also move by paragraph and by page >if you >wish to skip irrelevant material. For me at least, I comprehend >more >when I read braille. I do okay with audio, but when I read it >with my >fingers, I tend to absorb more of the information, whereas when >I'm >listening to it, I occasionally zone out and miss something. >This is >more important for some classes than others, but reading braille >tells us how to spell things. Braille also allows us to see >what's >underlined or italicized, which may be important for some >lessons. >These are just my thoughts. Have a great day! > >Sincerely, >Sophie > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Courtney Stover To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > >Antonio, > >I'll return with more thoughts later tonight when I've properly >read >the article, but I thought I'd answer your questions, because >they >interest me on a philosophical level. > >This is one of the ways that, frankly, my life experience simply >hasn't jived with NFB philosophy. NFB philosophy emphasizes the >importance of fast Braille reading, which I agree with; practice >absolutely must be maintained. However, they also seem to >strongly >insist on Braille textbooks, which I don't get behind so much. >Doing >college-level reading; I have never had to consume material as >quickly as I am right now. And, at least for me, reading >textbooks >in Braille is simply impractical, even if that Braille has >shifted >to electronic instead of hardcopy. I can read loads faster, >even >with something like RFBD and the Bookmarks function on my player >to >find important material again, than I ever thought about with >Braille, particularly because I can quickly skim over >superfluous >material like map descriptions, vocabulary I already remember, >or >excerpts from outside documents that are meant to enhance the >readings, which are always located at the end of the page, by >simply >going to the next one with the press of a button. With books >read >by a screen reader, particularly if they're from somewhere like >Bookshare and have Daisy navigation, this is even more true. > >I think your point is very true, about Braille readers only >reading >at the pace of sighted ones. I went in recently to take a test >in >Braille (the one reason I keep my Braille skills sharp; my test >performance plummets when I have to have a reader), and was >noted as >one of the fastest Braille readers the proctor had ever seen. >However, someone was taking the same test with a screen reader, >and >was finished in half the time I was. So, learning to take tests >with screen and human readers is something I wish to become >proficient >at. >After all, I may have Braille accommodation now, but I doubt a >workplace, such as a call center, that has a training process >before >proper work begins, is going to allow me to have a Braille >display. > >Now, this says nothing about leisure activities, in which I >vastly >prefer Braille to audio, save in rare cases. If I'm going to >read a >book, I want to actually be reading it. Also, any proofing task >would be made immensely more difficult without the use of >Braille. > >I hope this at least provides an interesting perspective on your >questions, as you certainly provided a very interesting article >I'm >looking forward to diving in to. >Warmly, >Courtney > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info >for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >r%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info >for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co >mca >st.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >mail >.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% >40gma >il.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia >ms2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreib >er26%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g >mail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver >izon.net > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g >mail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From desai.siddhi14 at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 16:56:32 2014 From: desai.siddhi14 at gmail.com (siddhi desai) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 22:26:32 +0530 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all, Thanks for the replys. I would be studying in lexinton Univ of Kentucky. I will contact disability office in UK but apart from my academic accommodational needs, how can i work with other areas. say, mobilizing to other area like to shops banks etc. Are there other organizations which work for blind fellows? How do you all find employment opportunities off campus? Sincerely Siddhi On 4/9/14, Elif Emir wrote: > HelloSiddhi, > Congrats for your Ph.d. > I'm also an international student here. > The first thing I'll recommend you to contact your university's > disability support unit. They will provide required assistant related > to your education. Providing accessible text book is one of the basic > services that you'll be having. Further services differs depending on > your school. > It's good to bring an official document as a prouf of your disability. > The university and the other city units will ask you for it before > provide any services. Having two or three official copies can be good. > Since eye care is not included in most of the health insurance, having > a prouf of document can be expensive here. > I also suggest you to contact with your school's disability services > ASAP, since they need some time to make arrangements. > If you have any other questions, you're always very welcome. > > > > 2014-04-08 19:49 GMT-04:00, Cindy Bennett : >> Hi Siddhi, >> >> First, congratulations! >> >> I think that reaching out to networks of blind students will really >> help you so I'd say you're off to a good start! If you tell us where >> you will be studying, I will check my network and connect you with >> local blind students if I know any. >> >> I work with my state's department of services for the blind. They >> assist me in purchasing blindness-related equipment such as screen >> reader software and are able to provide training if I need to increase >> my skills using a particular technology. They are also often able to >> provide some orientation and mobility services around your new campus. >> However, I have found that networking with blind people in the area >> has given me a much better idea of the layout of an area than working >> with an instructor. However, the option could be there. The only >> caveat is that these services are often available to U.S. citizens. I >> am less familiar with services offered to anyone. >> >> In Seattle, a business with a nonprofit foundation, the Lighthouse for >> the Blind, does offer some O&M instruction to anyone who needs it >> based on a contract they have with Metro Transit, our public transit >> agency. Other cities have similar nonprofits, but they are often >> diverse in what services they provide and how many of the services you >> can take advantage of. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 4/8/14, Ryan Bishop wrote: >>> Hello, >>> What University were you excepted to? It may be easier knowing that who >>> to >>> put you in contact with. Feel free to contact me off list if you don't >>> feel >>> comfortable putting that here. My information can be found in the >>> signature >>> below! >>> Ryan >>> >>> >>> Ryan Bishop >>> Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com >>> 480-221-5195 >>> Secretary >>> Arizona Association of blind students >>> http://az.nfb.org/aabs >>> Webmaster >>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >>> http://az.nfb.org >>> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax >>> deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the >>> Blind >>> today! For more information, please visit: >>> http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org >>> or call >>> 1-855-659-9314 >>> >>> The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem >>> is >>> the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind >>> person >>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical >>> nuisance. >>> >>> Confidentiality Notice: >>> This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of >>> the >>> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged >>> information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to >>> individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, >>> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the >>> original message. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of siddhi >>> desai >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 02:58 AM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] An international student >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my >>> Ph.D. >>> program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada and >>> Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. >>> However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would be >>> longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services office >>> in >>> University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired >>> people >>> and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability >>> sector >>> in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. >>> >>> Sincerely >>> Siddhi >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co >>> m >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/desai.siddhi14%40gmail.com > From blacklotus86 at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 17:15:52 2014 From: blacklotus86 at gmail.com (zeynep sule yilmaz) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 12:15:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Depending on disability service policy, you can have O&M training. This is generally for on campus so I don't know if they would offer for off-campus training too. Do you have a F1 visa or J1 visa? For employment issues, your visa status is determent whether you can work off-campus or not. When are you planning to work? after getting your degree or while you are student? You can also contact with your university's international student services that they might be able to answer some of your questions better. Thanks Zeynep 2014-04-09 11:56 GMT-05:00, siddhi desai : > Dear all, > > Thanks for the replys. > > I would be studying in lexinton Univ of Kentucky. > > I will contact disability office in UK but apart from my academic > accommodational needs, how can i work with other areas. say, > mobilizing to other area like to shops banks etc. Are there other > organizations which work for blind fellows? How do you all find > employment opportunities off campus? > > Sincerely > Siddhi > > On 4/9/14, Elif Emir wrote: >> HelloSiddhi, >> Congrats for your Ph.d. >> I'm also an international student here. >> The first thing I'll recommend you to contact your university's >> disability support unit. They will provide required assistant related >> to your education. Providing accessible text book is one of the basic >> services that you'll be having. Further services differs depending on >> your school. >> It's good to bring an official document as a prouf of your disability. >> The university and the other city units will ask you for it before >> provide any services. Having two or three official copies can be good. >> Since eye care is not included in most of the health insurance, having >> a prouf of document can be expensive here. >> I also suggest you to contact with your school's disability services >> ASAP, since they need some time to make arrangements. >> If you have any other questions, you're always very welcome. >> >> >> >> 2014-04-08 19:49 GMT-04:00, Cindy Bennett : >>> Hi Siddhi, >>> >>> First, congratulations! >>> >>> I think that reaching out to networks of blind students will really >>> help you so I'd say you're off to a good start! If you tell us where >>> you will be studying, I will check my network and connect you with >>> local blind students if I know any. >>> >>> I work with my state's department of services for the blind. They >>> assist me in purchasing blindness-related equipment such as screen >>> reader software and are able to provide training if I need to increase >>> my skills using a particular technology. They are also often able to >>> provide some orientation and mobility services around your new campus. >>> However, I have found that networking with blind people in the area >>> has given me a much better idea of the layout of an area than working >>> with an instructor. However, the option could be there. The only >>> caveat is that these services are often available to U.S. citizens. I >>> am less familiar with services offered to anyone. >>> >>> In Seattle, a business with a nonprofit foundation, the Lighthouse for >>> the Blind, does offer some O&M instruction to anyone who needs it >>> based on a contract they have with Metro Transit, our public transit >>> agency. Other cities have similar nonprofits, but they are often >>> diverse in what services they provide and how many of the services you >>> can take advantage of. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 4/8/14, Ryan Bishop wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> What University were you excepted to? It may be easier knowing that who >>>> to >>>> put you in contact with. Feel free to contact me off list if you don't >>>> feel >>>> comfortable putting that here. My information can be found in the >>>> signature >>>> below! >>>> Ryan >>>> >>>> >>>> Ryan Bishop >>>> Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com >>>> 480-221-5195 >>>> Secretary >>>> Arizona Association of blind students >>>> http://az.nfb.org/aabs >>>> Webmaster >>>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >>>> http://az.nfb.org >>>> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax >>>> deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the >>>> Blind >>>> today! For more information, please visit: >>>> http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org >>>> or call >>>> 1-855-659-9314 >>>> >>>> The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem >>>> is >>>> the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind >>>> person >>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical >>>> nuisance. >>>> >>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>> This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of >>>> the >>>> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged >>>> information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to >>>> individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, >>>> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the >>>> original message. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of siddhi >>>> desai >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 02:58 AM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] An international student >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my >>>> Ph.D. >>>> program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada and >>>> Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. >>>> However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would be >>>> longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services >>>> office >>>> in >>>> University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired >>>> people >>>> and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability >>>> sector >>>> in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. >>>> >>>> Sincerely >>>> Siddhi >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/desai.siddhi14%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86%40gmail.com > From filerime at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 17:18:22 2014 From: filerime at gmail.com (Elif Emir) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 13:18:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your school may help you. some disability units hire mobility trainer for you. you may check the local services on google. if you have a J1 or F1 visa, you are not allowed to work of campus. You can only work on campus. for on campus jobs check your school's web-site. 2014-04-09 12:56 GMT-04:00, siddhi desai : > Dear all, > > Thanks for the replys. > > I would be studying in lexinton Univ of Kentucky. > > I will contact disability office in UK but apart from my academic > accommodational needs, how can i work with other areas. say, > mobilizing to other area like to shops banks etc. Are there other > organizations which work for blind fellows? How do you all find > employment opportunities off campus? > > Sincerely > Siddhi > > On 4/9/14, Elif Emir wrote: >> HelloSiddhi, >> Congrats for your Ph.d. >> I'm also an international student here. >> The first thing I'll recommend you to contact your university's >> disability support unit. They will provide required assistant related >> to your education. Providing accessible text book is one of the basic >> services that you'll be having. Further services differs depending on >> your school. >> It's good to bring an official document as a prouf of your disability. >> The university and the other city units will ask you for it before >> provide any services. Having two or three official copies can be good. >> Since eye care is not included in most of the health insurance, having >> a prouf of document can be expensive here. >> I also suggest you to contact with your school's disability services >> ASAP, since they need some time to make arrangements. >> If you have any other questions, you're always very welcome. >> >> >> >> 2014-04-08 19:49 GMT-04:00, Cindy Bennett : >>> Hi Siddhi, >>> >>> First, congratulations! >>> >>> I think that reaching out to networks of blind students will really >>> help you so I'd say you're off to a good start! If you tell us where >>> you will be studying, I will check my network and connect you with >>> local blind students if I know any. >>> >>> I work with my state's department of services for the blind. They >>> assist me in purchasing blindness-related equipment such as screen >>> reader software and are able to provide training if I need to increase >>> my skills using a particular technology. They are also often able to >>> provide some orientation and mobility services around your new campus. >>> However, I have found that networking with blind people in the area >>> has given me a much better idea of the layout of an area than working >>> with an instructor. However, the option could be there. The only >>> caveat is that these services are often available to U.S. citizens. I >>> am less familiar with services offered to anyone. >>> >>> In Seattle, a business with a nonprofit foundation, the Lighthouse for >>> the Blind, does offer some O&M instruction to anyone who needs it >>> based on a contract they have with Metro Transit, our public transit >>> agency. Other cities have similar nonprofits, but they are often >>> diverse in what services they provide and how many of the services you >>> can take advantage of. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 4/8/14, Ryan Bishop wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> What University were you excepted to? It may be easier knowing that who >>>> to >>>> put you in contact with. Feel free to contact me off list if you don't >>>> feel >>>> comfortable putting that here. My information can be found in the >>>> signature >>>> below! >>>> Ryan >>>> >>>> >>>> Ryan Bishop >>>> Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com >>>> 480-221-5195 >>>> Secretary >>>> Arizona Association of blind students >>>> http://az.nfb.org/aabs >>>> Webmaster >>>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >>>> http://az.nfb.org >>>> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax >>>> deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the >>>> Blind >>>> today! For more information, please visit: >>>> http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org >>>> or call >>>> 1-855-659-9314 >>>> >>>> The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem >>>> is >>>> the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind >>>> person >>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical >>>> nuisance. >>>> >>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>> This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of >>>> the >>>> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged >>>> information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to >>>> individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, >>>> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the >>>> original message. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of siddhi >>>> desai >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 02:58 AM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] An international student >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my >>>> Ph.D. >>>> program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada and >>>> Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. >>>> However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would be >>>> longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services >>>> office >>>> in >>>> University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired >>>> people >>>> and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability >>>> sector >>>> in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. >>>> >>>> Sincerely >>>> Siddhi >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/desai.siddhi14%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com > From blacklotus86 at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 18:40:12 2014 From: blacklotus86 at gmail.com (zeynep sule yilmaz) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 13:40:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi again, I do not want to make you confused. However, after certain amount of time that you spend in your academic program, you can work at off-campus jobs. The only thing is, it has to be related to your academic program. For F1 visa, you are allowed to work for 12 months. for J1, it is a little bit longer. There are a few of specific conditions that you would be able to work too. As I said again, please consult with your international student service adviser. Best Zeynep 2014-04-09 12:18 GMT-05:00, Elif Emir : > Your school may help you. some disability units hire mobility trainer > for you. you may check the local services on google. if you have a J1 > or F1 visa, you are not allowed to work of campus. You can only work > on campus. > for on campus jobs check your school's web-site. > > > > 2014-04-09 12:56 GMT-04:00, siddhi desai : >> Dear all, >> >> Thanks for the replys. >> >> I would be studying in lexinton Univ of Kentucky. >> >> I will contact disability office in UK but apart from my academic >> accommodational needs, how can i work with other areas. say, >> mobilizing to other area like to shops banks etc. Are there other >> organizations which work for blind fellows? How do you all find >> employment opportunities off campus? >> >> Sincerely >> Siddhi >> >> On 4/9/14, Elif Emir wrote: >>> HelloSiddhi, >>> Congrats for your Ph.d. >>> I'm also an international student here. >>> The first thing I'll recommend you to contact your university's >>> disability support unit. They will provide required assistant related >>> to your education. Providing accessible text book is one of the basic >>> services that you'll be having. Further services differs depending on >>> your school. >>> It's good to bring an official document as a prouf of your disability. >>> The university and the other city units will ask you for it before >>> provide any services. Having two or three official copies can be good. >>> Since eye care is not included in most of the health insurance, having >>> a prouf of document can be expensive here. >>> I also suggest you to contact with your school's disability services >>> ASAP, since they need some time to make arrangements. >>> If you have any other questions, you're always very welcome. >>> >>> >>> >>> 2014-04-08 19:49 GMT-04:00, Cindy Bennett : >>>> Hi Siddhi, >>>> >>>> First, congratulations! >>>> >>>> I think that reaching out to networks of blind students will really >>>> help you so I'd say you're off to a good start! If you tell us where >>>> you will be studying, I will check my network and connect you with >>>> local blind students if I know any. >>>> >>>> I work with my state's department of services for the blind. They >>>> assist me in purchasing blindness-related equipment such as screen >>>> reader software and are able to provide training if I need to increase >>>> my skills using a particular technology. They are also often able to >>>> provide some orientation and mobility services around your new campus. >>>> However, I have found that networking with blind people in the area >>>> has given me a much better idea of the layout of an area than working >>>> with an instructor. However, the option could be there. The only >>>> caveat is that these services are often available to U.S. citizens. I >>>> am less familiar with services offered to anyone. >>>> >>>> In Seattle, a business with a nonprofit foundation, the Lighthouse for >>>> the Blind, does offer some O&M instruction to anyone who needs it >>>> based on a contract they have with Metro Transit, our public transit >>>> agency. Other cities have similar nonprofits, but they are often >>>> diverse in what services they provide and how many of the services you >>>> can take advantage of. >>>> >>>> Cindy >>>> >>>> On 4/8/14, Ryan Bishop wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> What University were you excepted to? It may be easier knowing that >>>>> who >>>>> to >>>>> put you in contact with. Feel free to contact me off list if you don't >>>>> feel >>>>> comfortable putting that here. My information can be found in the >>>>> signature >>>>> below! >>>>> Ryan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ryan Bishop >>>>> Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com >>>>> 480-221-5195 >>>>> Secretary >>>>> Arizona Association of blind students >>>>> http://az.nfb.org/aabs >>>>> Webmaster >>>>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >>>>> http://az.nfb.org >>>>> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a >>>>> tax >>>>> deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the >>>>> Blind >>>>> today! For more information, please visit: >>>>> http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org >>>>> or call >>>>> 1-855-659-9314 >>>>> >>>>> The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem >>>>> is >>>>> the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind >>>>> person >>>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical >>>>> nuisance. >>>>> >>>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>>> This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of >>>>> the >>>>> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged >>>>> information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to >>>>> individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended >>>>> recipient, >>>>> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of >>>>> the >>>>> original message. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of siddhi >>>>> desai >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 02:58 AM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] An international student >>>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my >>>>> Ph.D. >>>>> program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada >>>>> and >>>>> Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. >>>>> However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would >>>>> be >>>>> longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services >>>>> office >>>>> in >>>>> University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired >>>>> people >>>>> and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability >>>>> sector >>>>> in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely >>>>> Siddhi >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>> protection is active. >>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Cindy Bennett >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/desai.siddhi14%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Wed Apr 9 19:33:25 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:33:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FwdBLIND STUDENT JOB OPPORTUNITY Michigan Message-ID: > >Anyone know of any blind student in the Flint or Grand Rapids areas that >desire to work? Please pass these two postings along. > > > > > >STATE OF MICHIGAN > >Job Opportunities > >Job #: 6401-14-BSBP-9 > >Job Title: Student Assistant - Flint > >Closing Date/Time: Wed. 04/16/14 5:00 PM Eastern Time > >Salary: $12.97 / Hour > >Job Type: Non Career > > Bargaining Unit: UNITED AUTO WORKERS (UAW) > >Location: Flint, Michigan > > Department: Licensing and Regulatory Affairs - LARA > >Job Description > >The Student Assistant will provide office support to staff in the Flint >office of > >the Bureau of Services for Blind Persons. They will do general office work >including > >answering the phone, assisting with mail, filing and other duties as >assigned. > >Position Description > > Required Education and Experience: > >Education > >Current enrollment in high school, vocational or technical school, or >post-secondary > >educational institution. > >Experience > >No specific type or amount is required. > > Additional Requirements and Information: > >The student must provide evidence of enrollment or acceptance to an >educational institution. > >View the job specification at: > >http://www.michigan.gov/documents/StudentAssistant_13049_7.pdf > > > > > > STATE OF MICHIGAN > >Job Opportunities > >Job #: 6401-14-BSBP-17-POST > >Job Title: Student Assistant - GR Regional > >Closing Date/Time: Mon. 04/14/14 5:00 PM Eastern Time > >Salary: $12.97 / Hour > >Job Type: Non Career > > Bargaining Unit: UNITED AUTO WORKERS (UAW) > >Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan > > Department: Licensing and Regulatory Affairs - LARA > >Job Description > >The Student Assistant will provide office support to staff in the Grand >Rapids office > >of the Bureau of Services for Blind Persons. They will do general office >work including > >answering the phone, assisting with mail and filing. > >Position Description > > Required Education and Experience: > >Education > >Current enrollment in high school, vocational or technical school, or >post-secondary > >educational institution. > >Experience > >No specific type or amount is required. One year of experience working in an >office > >setting preferred. > > Additional Requirements and Information: > >The student must provide evidence of enrollment or acceptance to an >educational institution. > >View the job specification at: > >http://www.michigan.gov/documents/StudentAssistant_13049_7.pdf > > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 20:06:27 2014 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 14:06:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blackboard, Canvas, or Desire 2 Learn In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4961EC12-035A-4B3E-837F-0308B842ACEF@gmail.com> Julie, I use Jaws Version 15 with Canvas. At my previous university we used blackboard. I have found both platforms to be almost entirely accessible; downloading it accessing course material is a little bit easier for me on Canvas but the class discussions and such on blackboard were a little bit more intuitive than they are on canvas. I've actually found some parts of canvas, mainly taking quizzes and posting to class discussions, more accessible on my iPhone then on The computer. I can do pretty much everything I need to one Canvas but, to maximize efficiency, I do some things with my laptop, some things with Safari on my iPhone, and I post to class discussions from the Canvas iOS app… A little bit cumbersome, perhaps, but it works. h Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 9, 2014, at 9:16 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > > Hi friends, > > Our university is considering moving to a new learning management > platform: Blackboard(which we already have), Canvas, or Desire 2 > Learn. I have experience with Blackboard and find that although it > can be frustrating from a usability stand point, it is pretty > accessible. But I would love some feedback from you all about which > ones you have used and how accessible you find them. Which > screenreader are you using? And I should add that we will be getting > the most recent version of whichever one we choose. I appreciate this > so much! > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 9 21:37:31 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 17:37:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign Message-ID: <6956436B6C31488E8840A01ECD833048@OwnerPC> Hi all, my school uses the online platform blackboard. It could be more accessible although I’m able to read much of the stuff I need like directions to assignments and downloading lecture notes. The keystroke, h, for headings sure helps navigate to the right section. Anyway, we have to submit a paper via safe assign. This is a link which after you submit it, the paper is checked for plagerism and against other student papers. I cannot submit in blackboard for general assignments; I cannot click on the browse button to attach files with jaws. so I email my assignments in. but for safe assign, I need to do via blackboard. The professor needs to see the info from safe assign. So, will I be able to do this? Also, will I be able to read the results? I heard from other students the safe assign thing gives you a percentage and uses visual indicators to say where your text matches something else; it underlines and other things. I’m wondering if I’ll need a sighted person to read the information it gives me. Any insights would help. Ashley From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Apr 9 23:52:56 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 19:52:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign In-Reply-To: <6956436B6C31488E8840A01ECD833048@OwnerPC> References: <6956436B6C31488E8840A01ECD833048@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <008501cf544e$d5023e30$7f06ba90$@gmail.com> I've noticed that while blabkboard is pretty good, the frades section is not. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 5:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign Hi all, my school uses the online platform blackboard. It could be more accessible although I’m able to read much of the stuff I need like directions to assignments and downloading lecture notes. The keystroke, h, for headings sure helps navigate to the right section. Anyway, we have to submit a paper via safe assign. This is a link which after you submit it, the paper is checked for plagerism and against other student papers. I cannot submit in blackboard for general assignments; I cannot click on the browse button to attach files with jaws. so I email my assignments in. but for safe assign, I need to do via blackboard. The professor needs to see the info from safe assign. So, will I be able to do this? Also, will I be able to read the results? I heard from other students the safe assign thing gives you a percentage and uses visual indicators to say where your text matches something else; it underlines and other things. I’m wondering if I’ll need a sighted person to read the information it gives me. Any insights would help. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From sarah.meyer55 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 00:59:03 2014 From: sarah.meyer55 at gmail.com (Sarah Meyer) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 20:59:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad school and training Centers? Message-ID: Hi Ashley and Cindy, Thanks so much for your responses! You have all given me some great things to think about. Yes, Ashley, after this program I would be able to take the licensing exam to be a Licensed Mental Health Counselor. From there, I hope to practice therapy and eventually possibly pursue a PhD in Clinical Psychology. I would be interested in teaching at some point, but my dream is to do the clinical mental health counseling, very possibly with girls/women who are working through anxiety, depression, PTSD, eating disorders, self-harm, etc. Anyway, I really do think that attending a Training Center would help me to flourish as a grad student and a professional in my chosen field. I am going to talk with my Admissions Coordinator and advisors at my Grad program and ask if there is a possibility to defer for a year (new admits may only begin in summer/fall term). Now...to choose which Center, and to convince VR... Any suggestions on how to build a strong case with VR for sending someone out of state? For many reasons, I absolutely do not want to attend a local "Rehab" program for blindness training (I won't mention any names). -- Sarah K. Meyer NFB of Indy - Community Outreach, Advocacy, and Legislation (COAL), Chair IndyGo/IPTC Mobility Advisory Committee (MAC), Member (317) 402-6632 From clb5590 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 01:31:06 2014 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 18:31:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad school and training Centers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sarah, Attached are the notes from the training center call NABS had about a year ago. Attached also is the letter of justification that I wrote based on several sample justification letters that Al Spooner from BLIND, Inc. gave me. Any training center will be willing to help you with all correspondence with vr. Anyone can reference these documents and ask me more specific questions. I hope you can get deferred. From personal experience, I have no idea how I would handle the grad school load with the lack of confidence and the amount of anxiety I had before training. And I haven't even started grad school yet. But I work with grad students and the independence and self motivation expected of me would have never fared well with me before training. I'm curious to learn whether you will be able to defer. Good luck! You can email me off list if any frustrations arise. Cindy On 4/9/14, Sarah Meyer wrote: > Hi Ashley and Cindy, > Thanks so much for your responses! You have all given me some great > things to think about. > Yes, Ashley, after this program I would be able to take the licensing > exam to be a Licensed Mental Health Counselor. From there, I hope to > practice therapy and eventually possibly pursue a PhD in Clinical > Psychology. I would be interested in teaching at some point, but my > dream is to do the clinical mental health counseling, very possibly > with girls/women who are working through anxiety, depression, PTSD, > eating disorders, self-harm, etc. > > Anyway, I really do think that attending a Training Center would help > me to flourish as a grad student and a professional in my chosen > field. I am going to talk with my Admissions Coordinator and advisors > at my Grad program and ask if there is a possibility to defer for a > year (new admits may only begin in summer/fall term). > Now...to choose which Center, and to convince VR... > Any suggestions on how to build a strong case with VR for sending > someone out of state? For many reasons, I absolutely do not want to > attend a local "Rehab" program for blindness training (I won't mention > any names). > > -- > Sarah K. Meyer > NFB of Indy - Community Outreach, Advocacy, and Legislation (COAL), Chair > IndyGo/IPTC Mobility Advisory Committee (MAC), Member > (317) 402-6632 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: How to get to That Training Center Notes.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 20247 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bennett - Request and justification for training[1].doc Type: application/msword Size: 25600 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sun Apr 6 03:24:54 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2014 22:24:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some computer questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is very good to know, I am glad to hear it. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 20:41:26 -0400, Matthew Dierckens wrote: >Numbers works very well with voiceover since the new IWork updates. >Matthew Dierckens >Macintosh Trainer >Blind Access Training >www.blindaccesstraining.com >1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 >On Apr 5, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Ryan, >> >> I had understood that Numbers does not work all that well with VoiceOver. Has that changed? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 16:45:25 -0400, Ryan L. Silveira wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> As far as editing documents using office for iPhone, that is not at all accessible. You can, however, edit Word documents with pages. I think you can also use numbers with Microsoft files. If I want to >> recommend a good computer, I would recommend a MacBook Pro. If you really need windows, you can duel boot. As far as the tablets, I would go with an iPad. Hope this helps. >>> Ryan >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Apr 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I've decided to get a new device to replace my aging laptop. I am >>>> starting a new job this summer and they will provide a PC for my >>>> office, but I want to have something that is portable and that I can >>>> use to edit Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files I create at >>>> work or get from colleagues. >>>> >>>> I already have JAWS and an iPhone. If Office for iPhone is accessible, >>>> or if it's possible to easily interact with Microsoft Office files >>>> using the Mac applications (like Pages or Numbers) then I'd consider >>>> using my iPhone instead of a laptop. >>>> >>>> So my questions are: >>>> (1) Is Office for iPhone accessible? >>>> (2) How easy or complicated is it to edit MS Word files using Pages on >>>> a Mac or iPhone? >>>> (3) Does anyone have recommendations for modern Windows laptops that >>>> are ultra-portable, like Ultrabooks or netbooks if they still exist? >>>> (4) Which tablets work with JAWS? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Apr 10 03:04:35 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 23:04:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign In-Reply-To: <008501cf544e$d5023e30$7f06ba90$@gmail.com> References: <6956436B6C31488E8840A01ECD833048@OwnerPC> <008501cf544e$d5023e30$7f06ba90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, I think you meant to type grades. I agree. Its hard to tell which points go with wich assignment as you read the grade section. I've had to ask my professor for clarification sometimes, if I don't have a reader. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 7:52 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign I've noticed that while blabkboard is pretty good, the frades section is not. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 5:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign Hi all, my school uses the online platform blackboard. It could be more accessible although I’m able to read much of the stuff I need like directions to assignments and downloading lecture notes. The keystroke, h, for headings sure helps navigate to the right section. Anyway, we have to submit a paper via safe assign. This is a link which after you submit it, the paper is checked for plagerism and against other student papers. I cannot submit in blackboard for general assignments; I cannot click on the browse button to attach files with jaws. so I email my assignments in. but for safe assign, I need to do via blackboard. The professor needs to see the info from safe assign. So, will I be able to do this? Also, will I be able to read the results? I heard from other students the safe assign thing gives you a percentage and uses visual indicators to say where your text matches something else; it underlines and other things. I’m wondering if I’ll need a sighted person to read the information it gives me. Any insights would help. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 03:45:13 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 21:45:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad school and training Centers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sarah, I think everyone is different in this regard. Personally I think if a student has good enough skills and confidence to do well in undergrad, you can probably do just as well in grad school. In many ways grad school can be easier in terms of accessibility and self-advocacy because you are in a smaller program. For me however, going through training made it easier for me to move out of state for grad school, and with Ph.D. programs the pickings are slim enough that willingness to go out of state is almost a necessity. I don't recall from the original post if you're going to grad school out of state, but if you're not this might not be an issue. The other reason I'm glad I did training before grad school instead of waiting is because I got married during grad school and it would have been tough on my marriage to go away to a center afterward. So I'm glad I went while I was single. This might be less of an issue though for you if your grad program is only two years long. Either way it is a very individual decision. Arielle On 4/9/14, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Attached are the notes from the training center call NABS had about a > year ago. Attached also is the letter of justification that I wrote > based on several sample justification letters that Al Spooner from > BLIND, Inc. gave me. Any training center will be willing to help you > with all correspondence with vr. > > Anyone can reference these documents and ask me more specific questions. > > I hope you can get deferred. From personal experience, I have no idea > how I would handle the grad school load with the lack of confidence > and the amount of anxiety I had before training. And I haven't even > started grad school yet. But I work with grad students and the > independence and self motivation expected of me would have never fared > well with me before training. > > I'm curious to learn whether you will be able to defer. Good luck! You > can email me off list if any frustrations arise. > > Cindy > > On 4/9/14, Sarah Meyer wrote: >> Hi Ashley and Cindy, >> Thanks so much for your responses! You have all given me some great >> things to think about. >> Yes, Ashley, after this program I would be able to take the licensing >> exam to be a Licensed Mental Health Counselor. From there, I hope to >> practice therapy and eventually possibly pursue a PhD in Clinical >> Psychology. I would be interested in teaching at some point, but my >> dream is to do the clinical mental health counseling, very possibly >> with girls/women who are working through anxiety, depression, PTSD, >> eating disorders, self-harm, etc. >> >> Anyway, I really do think that attending a Training Center would help >> me to flourish as a grad student and a professional in my chosen >> field. I am going to talk with my Admissions Coordinator and advisors >> at my Grad program and ask if there is a possibility to defer for a >> year (new admits may only begin in summer/fall term). >> Now...to choose which Center, and to convince VR... >> Any suggestions on how to build a strong case with VR for sending >> someone out of state? For many reasons, I absolutely do not want to >> attend a local "Rehab" program for blindness training (I won't mention >> any names). >> >> -- >> Sarah K. Meyer >> NFB of Indy - Community Outreach, Advocacy, and Legislation (COAL), Chair >> IndyGo/IPTC Mobility Advisory Committee (MAC), Member >> (317) 402-6632 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 14:01:17 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 10:01:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign In-Reply-To: References: <6956436B6C31488E8840A01ECD833048@OwnerPC> <008501cf544e$d5023e30$7f06ba90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019601cf54c5$5870c630$09525290$@gmail.com> Oops; you got me. I met grades. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 11:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign Justin, I think you meant to type grades. I agree. Its hard to tell which points go with wich assignment as you read the grade section. I've had to ask my professor for clarification sometimes, if I don't have a reader. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 7:52 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign I've noticed that while blabkboard is pretty good, the frades section is not. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 5:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign Hi all, my school uses the online platform blackboard. It could be more accessible although I’m able to read much of the stuff I need like directions to assignments and downloading lecture notes. The keystroke, h, for headings sure helps navigate to the right section. Anyway, we have to submit a paper via safe assign. This is a link which after you submit it, the paper is checked for plagerism and against other student papers. I cannot submit in blackboard for general assignments; I cannot click on the browse button to attach files with jaws. so I email my assignments in. but for safe assign, I need to do via blackboard. The professor needs to see the info from safe assign. So, will I be able to do this? Also, will I be able to read the results? I heard from other students the safe assign thing gives you a percentage and uses visual indicators to say where your text matches something else; it underlines and other things. I’m wondering if I’ll need a sighted person to read the information it gives me. Any insights would help. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From beckyasabo at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 15:17:07 2014 From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (Rebecca Sabo) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 09:17:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign In-Reply-To: <6956436B6C31488E8840A01ECD833048@OwnerPC> References: <6956436B6C31488E8840A01ECD833048@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi I am using blackboard this semester for my classes. I am using a mack when I have to ssummite assignments I have to use a reader but everything else is somewhat accessible. Becky On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:37 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > my school uses the online platform blackboard. > > It could be more accessible although I’m able to read much of the stuff I need like directions to assignments and downloading lecture notes. The keystroke, h, for headings sure helps navigate to the right section. > > Anyway, we have to submit a paper via safe assign. This is a link which after you submit it, the paper is checked for plagerism and against other student papers. I cannot submit in blackboard for general assignments; I cannot click on the browse button to attach files with jaws. so I email my assignments in. but for safe assign, I need to do via blackboard. > > The professor needs to see the info from safe assign. So, will I be able to do this? Also, will I be able to read the results? I heard from other students the safe assign thing gives you a percentage and uses visual indicators to say where your text matches something else; it underlines and other things. > > I’m wondering if I’ll need a sighted person to read the information it gives me. > > Any insights would help. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 15:41:28 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 11:41:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Contact Info For Nfb Newsline Message-ID: <5346bbcd.6a99ec0a.5de1.0919@mx.google.com> Hi Nabs Members I have a question for you. Do any of you have the contact info for Nfb newsline. I'd like to email them to make sure they received my online application. Please respond as soon as possible. From ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 15:45:59 2014 From: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com (Ryan Bishop) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 08:45:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Contact Info For Nfb Newsline In-Reply-To: <5346bbcd.6a99ec0a.5de1.0919@mx.google.com> References: <5346bbcd.6a99ec0a.5de1.0919@mx.google.com> Message-ID: If you apply for NFB Newsline online. I believe it goes to the NFB Newsline representatives for your state. I know for my state, it does. If not if your state hass representatives they can add you. If you still can't get added, you can call the NFB National office and there is an extention for newsline on the menu. Ryan Ryan Bishop Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com 480-221-5195 Secretary Arizona Association of blind students http://az.nfb.org/aabs Webmaster National Federation of the Blind of Arizona http://az.nfb.org Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the Blind today! For more information, please visit: http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind person has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical nuisance. Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 08:41 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Contact Info For Nfb Newsline Hi Nabs Members I have a question for you. Do any of you have the contact info for Nfb newsline. I'd like to email them to make sure they received my online application. Please respond as soon as possible. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co m --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 16:51:48 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 12:51:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Contact Info For Nfb Newsline In-Reply-To: <5346bbcd.6a99ec0a.5de1.0919@mx.google.com> References: <5346bbcd.6a99ec0a.5de1.0919@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <935AFF4E-2319-4952-90B2-427AE0E5D6C0@gmail.com> The email for Newsline support is nfbnewsline at nfb.org. Their phone number is (866) 504-7300. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 10, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Roanna Bacchus wrote: > > Hi Nabs Members I have a question for you. Do any of you have the contact info for Nfb newsline. I'd like to email them to make sure they received my online application. Please respond as soon as possible. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Fri Apr 11 17:14:12 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:14:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign In-Reply-To: References: <6956436B6C31488E8840A01ECD833048@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <008801cf55a9$75ec5410$61c4fc30$@mediacombb.net> I'm not sure what Concord uses. But it is pretty good. I had little success with Blackboard. I think much about that might be me. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rebecca Sabo Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:17 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blackboard and using safe assign Hi I am using blackboard this semester for my classes. I am using a mack when I have to ssummite assignments I have to use a reader but everything else is somewhat accessible. Becky On Apr 9, 2014, at 3:37 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > my school uses the online platform blackboard. > > It could be more accessible although I'm able to read much of the stuff I need like directions to assignments and downloading lecture notes. The keystroke, h, for headings sure helps navigate to the right section. > > Anyway, we have to submit a paper via safe assign. This is a link which after you submit it, the paper is checked for plagerism and against other student papers. I cannot submit in blackboard for general assignments; I cannot click on the browse button to attach files with jaws. so I email my assignments in. but for safe assign, I need to do via blackboard. > > The professor needs to see the info from safe assign. So, will I be able to do this? Also, will I be able to read the results? I heard from other students the safe assign thing gives you a percentage and uses visual indicators to say where your text matches something else; it underlines and other things. > > I'm wondering if I'll need a sighted person to read the information it gives me. > > Any insights would help. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 04:43:11 2014 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 00:43:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television Message-ID: Hi All: When I was younger, (many years ago) I used to watch TV all the time. I loved and primarily watched shows on channels such as ABC Family, MTV, and the CW (formerly the WB) so they had a lot of talking in them so I could follow along with what was going on pretty well just by listening to the context clues. I would like to get back into watching television. First, are popular television shows described? Could I go to a certain setting or something on my TV and access an audio described version of the shows? For those of you who love and regularly watch TV, do you just listen and try to use context clues to figure out what is going on or how do you keep yourself interested in the show when there is usually so much action and shows are very visual? Also, being that I likely won't be home when the shows I want to watch air, is there any way to access on demand through Exfinity/Comcast (my cable provider)? I know sighted people can access on demand through the menus on the remote control but of course neither my remote nor Television have speech so I can't access the menus or anything like that. For those of you who watch tv regularly, how do you get around this? Is there an app I could download on the Iphone or something to maybe somehow control my TV using the Iphone to access the on demand menus? I know these questions may sound weird, but I haven't really watched TV in so long the times have sort of changed. Television seems to be a huge thing for sighted people and I'd like to get back into watching popular TV shows again. I know I can access TV listings through NFB Newsline. Thanks, Kerri From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Thu Apr 10 13:14:52 2014 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 09:14:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television Message-ID: Hi All: When I was younger, (many years ago) I used to watch TV all the time. I loved and primarily watched shows on channels such as ABC Family, MTV, and the CW (formerly the WB) so they had a lot of talking in them so I could follow along with what was going on pretty well just by listening to the context clues. I would like to get back into watching television. First, are popular television shows described? Could I go to a certain setting or something on my TV and access an audio described version of the shows? For those of you who love and regularly watch TV, do you just listen and try to use context clues to figure out what is going on or how do you keep yourself interested in the show when there is usually so much action and shows are very visual? Also, being that I likely won't be home when the shows I want to watch air, is there any way to access on demand through Exfinity/Comcast (my cable provider)? I know sighted people can access on demand through the menus on the remote control but of course neither my remote nor Television have speech so I can't access the menus or anything like that. For those of you who watch tv regularly, how do you get around this? Is there an app I could download on the Iphone or something to maybe somehow control my TV using the Iphone to access the on demand menus? I know these questions may sound weird, but I haven't really watched TV in so long the times have sort of changed. Television seems to be a huge thing for sighted people and I'd like to get back into watching popular TV shows again. I know I can access TV listings through NFB Newsline. Thanks, Kerri From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 14:37:25 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 10:37:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Need An Email Address for Nfb Newsline Message-ID: <53494fcd.e220ec0a.2b79.ffffe629@mx.google.com> Good Morning Nabs People, I hope this message finds you all well. Two weeks ago I registered to receive Nfb Newsline on the web. After I submitted my online application it said that it would take one to two weeks for it to be approved. Today is exactly two weeks ago that I registered and I still have not received an email from them. Do any of you have an email address that I use to contact them? I've looked on the Nfb web site and cannot find one. Thank you and I look forward to hearing from you soon. From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 14:42:18 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 10:42:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television Message-ID: <534950f2.6a99ec0a.5de1.ffffe2a5@mx.google.com> Hi Kerri hope you are doing well. My name is Roanna Bacchus and I also like to watch popult tv aows. I watch "Wheel Of Fortune" which has a lot of sounds on it. I also watch our local news station and ABC World News on a nightly basis. Yes you can get tv listings on Nfb Newsline but I'm not sure about apps for the IPhone. I also listen to youtube videos and archived church services on my IPad. From anjelinac at att.net Sat Apr 12 16:56:19 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (anjelinac at att.net) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 12:56:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kerri, Comcast has apps where you can watch on demand shows. There also TV Guide apps where you can find out what is on TV. Newsline is also another great place to find TV listings. I generally just listen to what's going on and try to use context clues to figure things out. I'm not a big fan of descriptive TV shows or movies. I'm just one of those odd blind people. Smile Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 10, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > > Hi All: > > When I was younger, (many years ago) I used to watch TV all the time. > I loved and primarily watched shows on channels such as ABC Family, > MTV, and the CW (formerly the WB) so they had a lot of talking in them > so I could follow along with what was going on pretty well just by > listening to the context clues. > I would like to get back into watching television. > First, are popular television shows described? Could I go to a certain > setting or something on my TV and access an audio described version of > the shows? > For those of you who love and regularly watch TV, do you just listen > and try to use context clues to figure out what is going on or how do > you keep yourself interested in the show when there is usually so much > action and shows are very visual? > Also, being that I likely won't be home when the shows I want to watch > air, is there any way to access on demand through Exfinity/Comcast (my > cable provider)? I know sighted people can access on demand through > the menus on the remote control but of course neither my remote nor > Television have speech so I can't access the menus or anything like > that. For those of you who watch tv regularly, how do you get around > this? > Is there an app I could download on the Iphone or something to maybe > somehow control my TV using the Iphone to access the on demand menus? > I know these questions may sound weird, but I haven't really watched > TV in so long the times have sort of changed. Television seems to be a > huge thing for sighted people and I'd like to get back into watching > popular TV shows again. I know I can access TV listings through NFB > Newsline. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net From frandi.galindo at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 17:03:29 2014 From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com (frandi.galindo at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 12:03:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EED384964CE4FC489B2E478B9676917@HomeBase> Good morning keri There is an app for the iPhone called whats on wich was created by comcast. With this app you are able to look at the tv guide for any indevidual channel comcast offers, change your channel with the tap of a button, set reminders for your favorite shows, and many other things. As for the on demand thing, there is another app by comcast called tv go. You can watch movies, tv shows, and many other things. Unfortunately you must have the network on your package that your show has. For example, if you wanted to watch Sex and the City, you would have to have HPO, and if you wanted to watch American idol, you would have to have fox. You must have an account with comcast, and an online ID and password from them.Both of these apps I find to be completely accessible. There are other tv guide apps out their, but they are not as good. Some shows are discriptive like CSI and criminal minds. Unfortunatly, I am not sure how to activate such features. Each telivision is different. Hope this helps. -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:14 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television Hi All: When I was younger, (many years ago) I used to watch TV all the time. I loved and primarily watched shows on channels such as ABC Family, MTV, and the CW (formerly the WB) so they had a lot of talking in them so I could follow along with what was going on pretty well just by listening to the context clues. I would like to get back into watching television. First, are popular television shows described? Could I go to a certain setting or something on my TV and access an audio described version of the shows? For those of you who love and regularly watch TV, do you just listen and try to use context clues to figure out what is going on or how do you keep yourself interested in the show when there is usually so much action and shows are very visual? Also, being that I likely won't be home when the shows I want to watch air, is there any way to access on demand through Exfinity/Comcast (my cable provider)? I know sighted people can access on demand through the menus on the remote control but of course neither my remote nor Television have speech so I can't access the menus or anything like that. For those of you who watch tv regularly, how do you get around this? Is there an app I could download on the Iphone or something to maybe somehow control my TV using the Iphone to access the on demand menus? I know these questions may sound weird, but I haven't really watched TV in so long the times have sort of changed. Television seems to be a huge thing for sighted people and I'd like to get back into watching popular TV shows again. I know I can access TV listings through NFB Newsline. Thanks, Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 21:41:34 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 17:41:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] CLEP Test Message-ID: <33EC1F3D029B421192B54FE05A0FD984@Helga> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, How many of you took or are taking the CLEP test at their colleges or Universities? I’m just wondering, since I’m going to be taking it this summer, and I really don’t know who can prepare me for it! Actually, my mom will help me prepare for it, if she has time, but I actually want somebody who is good at the subject. As some of you know, I’m from Peru, and I speak Spanish, but my writing and punctuation is not so well! This test is an Spanish test that serves in order not to take an Spanish class as an elective at my colllege since I speak Spanish and it’s not need to do so! This test is worth 8 credits. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me with this and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 22:22:16 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:22:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] CLEP Test Message-ID: <3081AD85897B452C9FB0BE6B2F7333C9@Helga> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, How many of you took or are taking the CLEP test at their colleges or Universities? I’m just wondering, since I’m going to be taking it this summer, and I really don’t know who can prepare me for it! Actually, my mom will help me prepare for it, if she has time, but I actually want somebody who is good at the subject. As some of you know, I’m from Peru, and I speak Spanish, but my writing and punctuation is not so well! This test is an Spanish test that serves in order not to take an Spanish class as an elective at my colllege since I speak Spanish and it’s not need to do so! This test is worth 8 credits. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me with this and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! From jordyn2493 at gmail.com Sat Apr 12 23:34:17 2014 From: jordyn2493 at gmail.com (Jordyn Castor) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:34:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City Message-ID: <94DB91A1-FB8F-47F1-8778-1E8A1A360CCD@gmail.com> Hey all, I have an internship in New York City this summer. I was wondering if anyone who lived in Manhattan or NYC in general could contact me off list? I'm wondering about transportation options, tips and tricks for getting around there, ETC. I've never been to New York before, so any advice or any NYC knowledge you can give would be appreciated. I'm really stoked about this internship and am just trying to be as prepared as possible, because I heard New York is a bit crazy if you've never been before. :) Thanks! Jordyn From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sun Apr 13 02:38:08 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 22:38:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: CLEP Test References: <3081AD85897B452C9FB0BE6B2F7333C9@Helga> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: > Date: April 12, 2014 at 6:22:16 PM EDT > To: > Cc: "Florida Association of Blind Students" > Subject: CLEP Test > > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, How many of you took or are taking the CLEP test at their colleges or Universities? I’m just wondering, since I’m going to be taking it this summer, and I really don’t know who can prepare me for it! Actually, my mom will help me prepare for it, if she has time, but I actually want somebody who is good at the subject. As some of you know, I’m from Peru, and I speak Spanish, but my writing and punctuation is not so well! This test is an Spanish test that serves in order not to take an Spanish class as an elective at my colllege since I speak Spanish and it’s not need to do so! This test is worth 8 credits. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me with this and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! From jsoro620 at gmail.com Sun Apr 13 03:29:07 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 23:29:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] CLEP Test In-Reply-To: <3081AD85897B452C9FB0BE6B2F7333C9@Helga> References: <3081AD85897B452C9FB0BE6B2F7333C9@Helga> Message-ID: <002801cf56c8$870b0cd0$95212670$@gmail.com> Hi, I took the CLEP in 2001 to place out of 14 hours. Honestly, there's no real way to prepare for it. The point of the exam is to test your current proficiency. You're either proficient enough to skip the core courses, or you're not. The best I can offer is to watch television in the target language. Refresh your brain with the grammar and style if you do not frequently speak the language. I would specifically tune into news broadcasts. Telenovelas don't count. :) -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 6:22 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Cc: Florida Association of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] CLEP Test Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, How many of you took or are taking the CLEP test at their colleges or Universities? I’m just wondering, since I’m going to be taking it this summer, and I really don’t know who can prepare me for it! Actually, my mom will help me prepare for it, if she has time, but I actually want somebody who is good at the subject. As some of you know, I’m from Peru, and I speak Spanish, but my writing and punctuation is not so well! This test is an Spanish test that serves in order not to take an Spanish class as an elective at my colllege since I speak Spanish and it’s not need to do so! This test is worth 8 credits. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me with this and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 13 04:46:45 2014 From: ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com (ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 22:46:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television In-Reply-To: <5EED384964CE4FC489B2E478B9676917@HomeBase> References: <5EED384964CE4FC489B2E478B9676917@HomeBase> Message-ID: <97ECF64D-E67E-4DB9-97AD-EE12AC5EC030@gmail.com> Anjelinac Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 12, 2014, at 11:03 AM, wrote: > > Good morning keri > There is an app for the iPhone called whats on wich was created by comcast. With this app you are able to look at the tv guide for any indevidual channel comcast offers, change your channel with the tap of a button, set reminders for your favorite shows, and many other things. As for the on demand thing, there is another app by comcast called tv go. You can watch movies, tv shows, and many other things. Unfortunately you must have the network on your package that your show has. For example, if you wanted to watch Sex and the City, you would have to have > HPO, and if you wanted to watch American idol, you would have to have fox. You must have an account with comcast, and an online ID and password from them.Both of these apps I find to be completely accessible. There are other tv guide apps out their, but they are not as good. Some shows are discriptive like CSI and criminal minds. Unfortunatly, I am not sure how to activate such features. Each telivision is different. Hope this helps. > -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:14 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television > > Hi All: > > When I was younger, (many years ago) I used to watch TV all the time. > I loved and primarily watched shows on channels such as ABC Family, > MTV, and the CW (formerly the WB) so they had a lot of talking in them > so I could follow along with what was going on pretty well just by > listening to the context clues. > I would like to get back into watching television. > First, are popular television shows described? Could I go to a certain > setting or something on my TV and access an audio described version of > the shows? > For those of you who love and regularly watch TV, do you just listen > and try to use context clues to figure out what is going on or how do > you keep yourself interested in the show when there is usually so much > action and shows are very visual? > Also, being that I likely won't be home when the shows I want to watch > air, is there any way to access on demand through Exfinity/Comcast (my > cable provider)? I know sighted people can access on demand through > the menus on the remote control but of course neither my remote nor > Television have speech so I can't access the menus or anything like > that. For those of you who watch tv regularly, how do you get around > this? > Is there an app I could download on the Iphone or something to maybe > somehow control my TV using the Iphone to access the on demand menus? > I know these questions may sound weird, but I haven't really watched > TV in so long the times have sort of changed. Television seems to be a > huge thing for sighted people and I'd like to get back into watching > popular TV shows again. I know I can access TV listings through NFB > Newsline. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com I don't like TV shows you there that are described. I find that the descriptions drown out the regular audio talking. From sarah.meyer55 at gmail.com Sun Apr 13 04:00:14 2014 From: sarah.meyer55 at gmail.com (Sarah Meyer) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:00:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School and Training Centers? Message-ID: Thanks, Cindy and Arielle, for the resources and your feedback! I did find out that I can defer my start date in my grad program for up to two years, which was an amazing thing to find out!! I really do think I need and could benefit from the full training program at one of the Centers, and it looks like I won't have to give up my spot in the grad program to do so! I am in the process of speaking with the directors and other staff at each of the centers to learn about what makes each program unique so I can decide which one will best meet my needs, and I am gathering supporting documentation for when I present my request to my VR counselor this Monday. This may be a battle but it also may not; either way it is refreshing for me to be figuring out what I need and to know that I may be able to access the resources and support to get those needs met. It is empowering to be making a decision not based on others' opinions of my skills but based on my own awareness and gut feeling of what I need to do to be the best version of myself. Do I think I could go to grad school and do well this fall? Yes. Do I think I could do more than just "get by" and actually be 10 times more confident and effective/efficient while doing so? Absolutely. And there's no time like the present to make that a reality, especially while I'm not married and don't have family obligations to think about. Thanks everyone!! -- Sarah K. Meyer NFB of Indy - Community Outreach, Advocacy, and Legislation (COAL), Chair IndyGo/IPTC Mobility Advisory Committee (MAC), Member (317) 402-6632 From louvins at gmail.com Sun Apr 13 07:10:06 2014 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 02:10:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Grad School and Training Centers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi to Sarah and all. First Sarah, I hope all goes well with you when you present your case to your counselor about which center you would like to attend. I had to do the same thing just a couple days ago. I am going to attend an instate center in Chicago called Icrewood. At first, my counselor didn't want me to go, because she told me, she could give me in home training. But, this was something I knew I didn't want to do. I want help in cooking, cleaning, and o and m skills. I am looking forward to attending the center. Even though it is only between 2 to four months, I am going to get the most out of it I can. I had to tell my counselor exactly what my goals were after I came back from the center. It wasn't as hard convincing her to let me go as I had first thought. My counselor's supervisor was also at the meeting which I think helped. Good luck again, and you have to fight for what you want. On 4/12/14, Sarah Meyer wrote: > Thanks, Cindy and Arielle, for the resources and your feedback! > > I did find out that I can defer my start date in my grad program for > up to two years, which was an amazing thing to find out!! I really do > think I need and could benefit from the full training program at one > of the Centers, and it looks like I won't have to give up my spot in > the grad program to do so! > I am in the process of speaking with the directors and other staff at > each of the centers to learn about what makes each program unique so I > can decide which one will best meet my needs, and I am gathering > supporting documentation for when I present my request to my VR > counselor this Monday. > This may be a battle but it also may not; either way it is refreshing > for me to be figuring out what I need and to know that I may be able > to access the resources and support to get those needs met. It is > empowering to be making a decision not based on others' opinions of my > skills but based on my own awareness and gut feeling of what I need to > do to be the best version of myself. Do I think I could go to grad > school and do well this fall? Yes. Do I think I could do more than > just "get by" and actually be 10 times more confident and > effective/efficient while doing so? Absolutely. And there's no time > like the present to make that a reality, especially while I'm not > married and don't have family obligations to think about. > > Thanks everyone!! > > -- > Sarah K. Meyer > NFB of Indy - Community Outreach, Advocacy, and Legislation (COAL), Chair > IndyGo/IPTC Mobility Advisory Committee (MAC), Member > (317) 402-6632 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Apr 13 21:57:54 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:57:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television In-Reply-To: <97ECF64D-E67E-4DB9-97AD-EE12AC5EC030@gmail.com> References: <5EED384964CE4FC489B2E478B9676917@HomeBase> <97ECF64D-E67E-4DB9-97AD-EE12AC5EC030@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, This is a great question, and one I've been wondering about myself since my roommates last semester would regularly watch shows like Once Upon a Time, Dr. Who, and Sherlock together on their computers. I have a few shows I'd like to start watching (primarily the Big Bang Theory), and it would be nice if I could access them on my phone or Android tablet with an app, since I know the Netflix app and web site can be cumbersome for jaws to handle. My family has Time Warner Are there any apps for TWC that are similar to the ones offered by Comcast? On 4/13/14, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: > Anjelinac > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 12, 2014, at 11:03 AM, wrote: >> >> Good morning keri >> There is an app for the iPhone called whats on wich was created by >> comcast. With this app you are able to look at the tv guide for any >> indevidual channel comcast offers, change your channel with the tap of a >> button, set reminders for your favorite shows, and many other things. As >> for the on demand thing, there is another app by comcast called tv go. >> You can watch movies, tv shows, and many other things. Unfortunately you >> must have the network on your package that your show has. For example, if >> you wanted to watch Sex and the City, you would have to have >> HPO, and if you wanted to watch American idol, you would have to have fox. >> You must have an account with comcast, and an online ID and password from >> them.Both of these apps I find to be completely accessible. There are >> other tv guide apps out their, but they are not as good. Some shows are >> discriptive like CSI and criminal minds. Unfortunatly, I am not sure how >> to activate such features. Each telivision is different. Hope this >> helps. >> -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten >> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:14 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television >> >> Hi All: >> >> When I was younger, (many years ago) I used to watch TV all the time. >> I loved and primarily watched shows on channels such as ABC Family, >> MTV, and the CW (formerly the WB) so they had a lot of talking in them >> so I could follow along with what was going on pretty well just by >> listening to the context clues. >> I would like to get back into watching television. >> First, are popular television shows described? Could I go to a certain >> setting or something on my TV and access an audio described version of >> the shows? >> For those of you who love and regularly watch TV, do you just listen >> and try to use context clues to figure out what is going on or how do >> you keep yourself interested in the show when there is usually so much >> action and shows are very visual? >> Also, being that I likely won't be home when the shows I want to watch >> air, is there any way to access on demand through Exfinity/Comcast (my >> cable provider)? I know sighted people can access on demand through >> the menus on the remote control but of course neither my remote nor >> Television have speech so I can't access the menus or anything like >> that. For those of you who watch tv regularly, how do you get around >> this? >> Is there an app I could download on the Iphone or something to maybe >> somehow control my TV using the Iphone to access the on demand menus? >> I know these questions may sound weird, but I haven't really watched >> TV in so long the times have sort of changed. Television seems to be a >> huge thing for sighted people and I'd like to get back into watching >> popular TV shows again. I know I can access TV listings through NFB >> Newsline. >> Thanks, >> Kerri >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com >> I don't like TV shows you there that are described. I find that the >> descriptions drown out the regular audio talking. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From freethaught at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 02:01:51 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:01:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB PS In-Reply-To: References: <20BCC99D-13C7-48BF-9A35-E77549EF70EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D501A1F-E18A-458E-AD8F-2DF7596837A9@gmail.com> Kaiti, I thought Unified English Braille would resolve interlibrary loans across countries. Smile. Oh, you're talking about the even more universal system of braille music, and libraries can't get it straight. One more reason for me to believe UEB was too much of a hype. Now we read the same braille as the Brits, but we can't get their books under our fingers. It goes both ways. I doubt NLS will just open up their collection for any blind person in the world. After all, the program is funded by the American government. But I digress. Antonio On Apr 4, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Sandra, > > I feel you on the library issue; I know a girl from the UK who is > about my age, and she's told me stories about things that have > happened to her RNIB books. However, as Darian says, I do wish we had > some of the transportation options that Europeans have. It would be > so nice to use a train to get from point A to point B, and though we > do have them in the U.S, we don't have many of them. Kind of > something silly, but I tend to travel a lot in the summers. > > Funny story though. Our music section of the Library of Congress > isn't as big as I would have hoped it would be. There aren't that > many books for my instrument. I tried to get an etude book in braille > music, and first was told that it didn't exist. Then I asked about > the second book in the series, even though I wasn't working on it yet, > and I was told that it had been brailled, but it would have to be > borrowed from RNIB and then shipped to me, a process which could take > a really long time to sort out between the two libraries. I wonder > why the two libraries can't interact more for the sharing of > materials? > > Do you guys have a counterpart to bookshare? Honestly, I prefer using > it to Web Braille, because I think the books are higher quality. I > also never use BARD so it's kind of pointless to even deal with it > when Bookshare is available. > > On 4/4/14, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi Sandra, >> I'm sure that we have an appreciation for what we have. Many of us here >> have contributed in one way or another to what the NFB is today. >> I think this concern comes from a place where people care about what's >> going on and want to make a change, and hopefully this is what comes of it. >> >> Besides I'm sure that there are things people in Europe complain about >> that americans would roll their eyes at *smile*. >> Darian >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:41 AM, Sandra Gayer wrote: >> >>> Hello again, >>> While I'm ranting about privaleges In America, you guys have web >>> Braille while we still have to put up with Braille books being bent in >>> half and sometimes ripped by members of our loving postal service. >>> >>> I'm sorry I'm coming across as a grumpy old woman before my time, hee >>> hee! I'm just saying, be greatful for what you have and if you don't >>> like having what the rest of us can only fantasize about, change what >>> you can. If that doesn't work, build your own organisation whereyou >>> can implement your ideas for change. I'm sure that's how The NFB >>> started; someone had a dream about how they could make the world a >>> better place for visually impaired people. From where I'm sitting, >>> they're not doing a bad job! >>> >>> Very best wishes, >>> Sandra. >>> >>> On 4/4/14, Sandra Gayer wrote: >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> It's hard for me to sit here and listen to all this. I'm in Europe and >>>> we don't have any of the opportunities you're complaining about; >>>> conventions, visually impaired leaders, independence philosophy etc. >>>> You could always live in England where there's disability specific >>>> hate crime! You wouldn't have any 'Youth Slams' to organise or >>>> complain about here, trust me! You certainly wouldn't have the luxury >>>> of criticising how a visually impaired national gathering is run >>>> because they are very rare here. As for visually impaired people at >>>> the top of an organisation, don't make me laugh! >>>> >>>> Very best wishes, >>>> Sandra. >>>> >>>> On 4/3/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>>>> Jedi, >>>>> >>>>> Extremely well said. Your ease with words, and adeptedness when writing >>>>> on >>>>> a >>>>> mobile device both deserve my public acknowledgement for a job well >>>>> done. >>>>> >>>>> May I say, tongue in cheek, that you inspire me. Smiles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Antonio M Guimaraes Jr. >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:32 PM, Jedi Moerke >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea >>>>>> where >>>>>> to start! >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say that >>>>>> I >>>>>> have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I can >>>>>> say >>>>>> that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I had >>>>>> nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In >>>>>> short, >>>>>> I >>>>>> felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there some >>>>>> people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel this >>>>>> way? Yes. But I also came to find that my expectations for life in the >>>>>> federation were also to blame. >>>>>> >>>>>> My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the better. >>>>>> I >>>>>> honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the knowledge >>>>>> and >>>>>> experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers >>>>>> to >>>>>> organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every >>>>>> aspect of the organization and initially felt that the organization >>>>>> and >>>>>> its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences >>>>>> radically >>>>>> shifted my opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely >>>>>> disoriented. Self reflection caused me to recognize a few things that >>>>>> might be relevant to this discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization >>>>>> and >>>>>> the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the >>>>>> Federation >>>>>> our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to support >>>>>> all >>>>>> blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say >>>>>> that, >>>>>> in >>>>>> everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the >>>>>> attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short >>>>>> sometimes >>>>>> for one reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really >>>>>> believe >>>>>> that it is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive >>>>>> toward >>>>>> our stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our hearts >>>>>> and >>>>>> a bad attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others toward >>>>>> our >>>>>> organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that >>>>>> challenge and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I >>>>>> believe the membership I impacted also came out better as well. I also >>>>>> believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a result. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself >>>>>> within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection as >>>>>> a >>>>>> member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot of >>>>>> personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a >>>>>> member >>>>>> is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I decided >>>>>> to >>>>>> do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for >>>>>> it. >>>>>> In >>>>>> the process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other >>>>>> people >>>>>> in >>>>>> the organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived >>>>>> for >>>>>> being a perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize >>>>>> overtime >>>>>> that there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and >>>>>> that >>>>>> it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the >>>>>> organization? >>>>>> Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in other >>>>>> areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say >>>>>> to >>>>>> hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about >>>>>> them. >>>>>> That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make >>>>>> some >>>>>> good points and recommendations for what blind people can do to better >>>>>> themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations truly >>>>>> do >>>>>> make a difference. It's up to you whether or not you are willing to >>>>>> assess >>>>>> your own life to determine what recommendations will help you improve. >>>>>> Everyone has room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down >>>>>> whatever defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, you >>>>>> might find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't >>>>>> helpful >>>>>> to you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free to >>>>>> offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there >>>>>> are >>>>>> also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday be >>>>>> added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness to >>>>>> speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the >>>>>> Federation. >>>>>> But that can't happen if you decide to leave. >>>>>> >>>>>> I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to be >>>>>> undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our >>>>>> organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The >>>>>> field >>>>>> of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are >>>>>> willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We have >>>>>> learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We >>>>>> now >>>>>> know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. >>>>>> Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making some >>>>>> things >>>>>> easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate for >>>>>> ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way we >>>>>> express ourselves is going to change. But that does not mean that our >>>>>> mission has changed. And yes, we have taken on a few initiatives that >>>>>> cost >>>>>> a lot of money. In the current budgetary climate, we do need to work >>>>>> harder at raising some funds in order to keep these initiatives >>>>>> afloat. >>>>>> That said, I believe the national organization recognizes that not >>>>>> everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. I think the >>>>>> national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us to >>>>>> participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our >>>>>> participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal >>>>>> contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the >>>>>> organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to >>>>>> sell >>>>>> things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind >>>>>> campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you >>>>>> to >>>>>> do >>>>>> what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have >>>>>> more >>>>>> enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or >>>>>> public >>>>>> education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning >>>>>> about >>>>>> our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are >>>>>> members >>>>>> who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways >>>>>> really. >>>>>> >>>>>> As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's >>>>>> comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured >>>>>> discovery >>>>>> perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect >>>>>> way >>>>>> to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching >>>>>> people >>>>>> the skills they need to make sense of the world and to act in it >>>>>> given >>>>>> their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a >>>>>> person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who does >>>>>> not >>>>>> push a student out of their comfort zone is no teacher at all. And it >>>>>> doesn't really matter if that teacher is a travel instructor or a >>>>>> mentor >>>>>> at convention. The best teachers keep students in a sweet spot where >>>>>> they >>>>>> are definitely challenged, but not so challenged as to make the >>>>>> experience >>>>>> a total wash. If you are the student so to speak and find yourself >>>>>> with >>>>>> a >>>>>> teacher who either doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your >>>>>> ability, >>>>>> then it is your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in >>>>>> that >>>>>> sweet spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between >>>>>> your >>>>>> actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final thought, >>>>>> if >>>>>> you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it >>>>>> wrong >>>>>> anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no >>>>>> matter what kind of blind person you are. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that >>>>>> those >>>>>> of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are not >>>>>> alone. Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with >>>>>> the >>>>>> territory of being one member among many within a vast organization >>>>>> whose >>>>>> membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to >>>>>> people about your experience as you will likely find someone who has >>>>>> been >>>>>> there and who can be both a support system and an advisor to you as to >>>>>> what you might do to find your place among us once again. Like I said, >>>>>> I >>>>>> have been there before and I am still working on finding my place. I'm >>>>>> not >>>>>> really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident >>>>>> that >>>>>> I >>>>>> will nonetheless. >>>>>> >>>>>> Respectfully, >>>>>> Jedi >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I >>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>> repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get >>>>>>> quite >>>>>>> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has >>>>>>> brought >>>>>>> up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >>>>>>> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand in >>>>>>> hand >>>>>>> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort towards >>>>>>> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >>>>>>> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, some not >>>>>>> money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> members with no responsibility in the organization. >>>>>>> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an >>>>>>> effort >>>>>>> to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their >>>>>>> needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as >>>>>>> people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people in >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes we >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we can >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> and simply giving up won't solve the problem. It of course is >>>>>>> totally >>>>>>> possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn't very >>>>>>> receptive >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation >>>>>>> stands >>>>>>> for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to give, >>>>>>> then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >>>>>>> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the >>>>>>> movement. >>>>>>> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of >>>>>>> us >>>>>>> know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we do >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> of these things are important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with >>>>>>>> prize >>>>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>>> alternative >>>>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>> judgment >>>>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>>>>>> life, >>>>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. >>>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a >>>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >>>>>>>>>> monthly >>>>>>>>>> dose >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>>> generating >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>>> top, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>>>>> resources >>>>>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>>> ever >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>>>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really >>>>>>>>>> meant >>>>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>>>>>> what I >>>>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>>>>> verge >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>> guide >>>>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and >>>>>>>>>> leave >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the >>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >>>>>>>>>> seem >>>>>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The >>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have >>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>>>>>> excel >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>>>>> greater >>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>>> consume >>>>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Soprano Singer >>>> www.sandragayer.com >>>> >>>> Broadcast Presenter >>>> >>>> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html >>>> >>>> Voiceover Artist >>>> >>>> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Soprano Singer >>> www.sandragayer.com >>> >>> Broadcast Presenter >>> >>> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html >>> >>> Voiceover Artist >>> >>> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 01:46:19 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:46:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Scanning on the cheap Message-ID: <14B25A13-DAAA-4888-9FFE-0E6FDBF2825D@gmail.com> Hi, I am looking for the cheapest, probably off the shelf scanning software blind people use these days on a Mac computer. Assume I am savvy and patient enough to deal with running minimal program with very few features. I want to prop a book down, and scan through just as fast as I can turn the pages. I can save in some image format and let some program run OCR on it later. I have DocuScan, and it does the trick. It is solid, accessible, and made for use by the blind. I'll use it if that's the only thing that works, but I know there are other programs out there that are cheaper and will do what I want. thanks, Antonio From freethaught at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 01:50:29 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:50:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television In-Reply-To: References: <5EED384964CE4FC489B2E478B9676917@HomeBase> <97ECF64D-E67E-4DB9-97AD-EE12AC5EC030@gmail.com> Message-ID: <261F3D2A-18E4-41AE-AFEB-45F2FD0060BC@gmail.com> Many shows are available on Netflix and you mitt only need a membership for that. The IOS app is pretty inaccessible for NetFlix, bt if one will sit down to a TV, why not bring it up on a browser instead. Antonio On Apr 13, 2014, at 5:57 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > This is a great question, and one I've been wondering about myself > since my roommates last semester would regularly watch shows like Once > Upon a Time, Dr. Who, and Sherlock together on their computers. I > have a few shows I'd like to start watching (primarily the Big Bang > Theory), and it would be nice if I could access them on my phone or > Android tablet with an app, since I know the Netflix app and web site > can be cumbersome for jaws to handle. My family has Time Warner Are > there any apps for TWC that are similar to the ones offered by > Comcast? > > On 4/13/14, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: >> Anjelinac >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 12, 2014, at 11:03 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Good morning keri >>> There is an app for the iPhone called whats on wich was created by >>> comcast. With this app you are able to look at the tv guide for any >>> indevidual channel comcast offers, change your channel with the tap of a >>> button, set reminders for your favorite shows, and many other things. As >>> for the on demand thing, there is another app by comcast called tv go. >>> You can watch movies, tv shows, and many other things. Unfortunately you >>> must have the network on your package that your show has. For example, if >>> you wanted to watch Sex and the City, you would have to have >>> HPO, and if you wanted to watch American idol, you would have to have fox. >>> You must have an account with comcast, and an online ID and password from >>> them.Both of these apps I find to be completely accessible. There are >>> other tv guide apps out their, but they are not as good. Some shows are >>> discriptive like CSI and criminal minds. Unfortunatly, I am not sure how >>> to activate such features. Each telivision is different. Hope this >>> helps. >>> -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten >>> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:14 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television >>> >>> Hi All: >>> >>> When I was younger, (many years ago) I used to watch TV all the time. >>> I loved and primarily watched shows on channels such as ABC Family, >>> MTV, and the CW (formerly the WB) so they had a lot of talking in them >>> so I could follow along with what was going on pretty well just by >>> listening to the context clues. >>> I would like to get back into watching television. >>> First, are popular television shows described? Could I go to a certain >>> setting or something on my TV and access an audio described version of >>> the shows? >>> For those of you who love and regularly watch TV, do you just listen >>> and try to use context clues to figure out what is going on or how do >>> you keep yourself interested in the show when there is usually so much >>> action and shows are very visual? >>> Also, being that I likely won't be home when the shows I want to watch >>> air, is there any way to access on demand through Exfinity/Comcast (my >>> cable provider)? I know sighted people can access on demand through >>> the menus on the remote control but of course neither my remote nor >>> Television have speech so I can't access the menus or anything like >>> that. For those of you who watch tv regularly, how do you get around >>> this? >>> Is there an app I could download on the Iphone or something to maybe >>> somehow control my TV using the Iphone to access the on demand menus? >>> I know these questions may sound weird, but I haven't really watched >>> TV in so long the times have sort of changed. Television seems to be a >>> huge thing for sighted people and I'd like to get back into watching >>> popular TV shows again. I know I can access TV listings through NFB >>> Newsline. >>> Thanks, >>> Kerri >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com >>> I don't like TV shows you there that are described. I find that the >>> descriptions drown out the regular audio talking. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 02:20:37 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:20:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An international student In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12AFA75B-77CD-4AA2-91C8-48AB95394119@gmail.com> Hi Siddhi, You might want to check with the American Council of the Blind www.acb.org and National Federation of the Blind www.nfb.org local affiliates where you'll most certainly connect with other blind people. I'm sure coming to another country as an inter national student is anxiety-provoking, and at the same time pretty exciting. Since you'll be studying in the States, you may be eligible for services from BookShare National Library Services for the Blind, NLS, from the library of congress. Recording for the Blind and dyslexic. to name a few. You'll have to check with each one for eligibility requirements, and you'll likely get somewhere quicker if another blind person, or service provider will help you navigate the application process once you arrive. You found a good group here on this list. We are here for student-related questions, and this can relate to anything from how to run technology to social issues as a blind student, speed-reading ad the like. Stay here a few days and you'll get the hang of the list etiquette, and personality. There are many other listservs on the www.nfbnet.org site. See if there are groups there which interest you. Consider coming to one or both summer blindness conventions of the NFB, and ACB. They both take place in July. One in Orlando, another in Your experience will be a fuller one if you also get involved in similar groups in your field that are not specifically tailored for blind students. Hope this helps, Antonio On Apr 9, 2014, at 12:56 PM, siddhi desai wrote: > Dear all, > > Thanks for the replys. > > I would be studying in lexinton Univ of Kentucky. > > I will contact disability office in UK but apart from my academic > accommodational needs, how can i work with other areas. say, > mobilizing to other area like to shops banks etc. Are there other > organizations which work for blind fellows? How do you all find > employment opportunities off campus? > > Sincerely > Siddhi > > On 4/9/14, Elif Emir wrote: >> HelloSiddhi, >> Congrats for your Ph.d. >> I'm also an international student here. >> The first thing I'll recommend you to contact your university's >> disability support unit. They will provide required assistant related >> to your education. Providing accessible text book is one of the basic >> services that you'll be having. Further services differs depending on >> your school. >> It's good to bring an official document as a prouf of your disability. >> The university and the other city units will ask you for it before >> provide any services. Having two or three official copies can be good. >> Since eye care is not included in most of the health insurance, having >> a prouf of document can be expensive here. >> I also suggest you to contact with your school's disability services >> ASAP, since they need some time to make arrangements. >> If you have any other questions, you're always very welcome. >> >> >> >> 2014-04-08 19:49 GMT-04:00, Cindy Bennett : >>> Hi Siddhi, >>> >>> First, congratulations! >>> >>> I think that reaching out to networks of blind students will really >>> help you so I'd say you're off to a good start! If you tell us where >>> you will be studying, I will check my network and connect you with >>> local blind students if I know any. >>> >>> I work with my state's department of services for the blind. They >>> assist me in purchasing blindness-related equipment such as screen >>> reader software and are able to provide training if I need to increase >>> my skills using a particular technology. They are also often able to >>> provide some orientation and mobility services around your new campus. >>> However, I have found that networking with blind people in the area >>> has given me a much better idea of the layout of an area than working >>> with an instructor. However, the option could be there. The only >>> caveat is that these services are often available to U.S. citizens. I >>> am less familiar with services offered to anyone. >>> >>> In Seattle, a business with a nonprofit foundation, the Lighthouse for >>> the Blind, does offer some O&M instruction to anyone who needs it >>> based on a contract they have with Metro Transit, our public transit >>> agency. Other cities have similar nonprofits, but they are often >>> diverse in what services they provide and how many of the services you >>> can take advantage of. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 4/8/14, Ryan Bishop wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> What University were you excepted to? It may be easier knowing that who >>>> to >>>> put you in contact with. Feel free to contact me off list if you don't >>>> feel >>>> comfortable putting that here. My information can be found in the >>>> signature >>>> below! >>>> Ryan >>>> >>>> >>>> Ryan Bishop >>>> Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com >>>> 480-221-5195 >>>> Secretary >>>> Arizona Association of blind students >>>> http://az.nfb.org/aabs >>>> Webmaster >>>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona >>>> http://az.nfb.org >>>> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax >>>> deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the >>>> Blind >>>> today! For more information, please visit: >>>> http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org >>>> or call >>>> 1-855-659-9314 >>>> >>>> The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem >>>> is >>>> the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind >>>> person >>>> has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical >>>> nuisance. >>>> >>>> Confidentiality Notice: >>>> This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of >>>> the >>>> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged >>>> information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to >>>> individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, >>>> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the >>>> original message. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of siddhi >>>> desai >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 02:58 AM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] An international student >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I am an India student. I have been accepted to us university for my >>>> Ph.D. >>>> program in public policy. I have travelled to countries like Canada and >>>> Germany for a short duration and lived there independently. >>>> However i will be coming to USA for the first time and my stay would be >>>> longer. Actually, I wanted to know Apart from Disability services office >>>> in >>>> University, which organisations in USA exists for visually impaired >>>> people >>>> and how should i contact them? I have no notion regarding disability >>>> sector >>>> in USA so detailed answers would be helpful for me. >>>> >>>> Sincerely >>>> Siddhi >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/desai.siddhi14%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 06:03:42 2014 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:03:42 +0100 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB PS In-Reply-To: <0D501A1F-E18A-458E-AD8F-2DF7596837A9@gmail.com> References: <20BCC99D-13C7-48BF-9A35-E77549EF70EB@gmail.com> <0D501A1F-E18A-458E-AD8F-2DF7596837A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, Both sides could share their downloadable resources. There was never anything stopping them! Very best wishes, Sandra. On 4/14/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > Kaiti, > > I thought Unified English Braille would resolve interlibrary loans across > countries. Smile. > > Oh, you're talking about the even more universal system of braille music, > and libraries can't get it straight. > > One more reason for me to believe UEB was too much of a hype. > > Now we read the same braille as the Brits, but we can't get their books > under our fingers. It goes both ways. I doubt NLS will just open up their > collection for any blind person in the world. After all, the program is > funded by the American government. > > But I digress. > > Antonio > > On Apr 4, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > >> Hi Sandra, >> >> I feel you on the library issue; I know a girl from the UK who is >> about my age, and she's told me stories about things that have >> happened to her RNIB books. However, as Darian says, I do wish we had >> some of the transportation options that Europeans have. It would be >> so nice to use a train to get from point A to point B, and though we >> do have them in the U.S, we don't have many of them. Kind of >> something silly, but I tend to travel a lot in the summers. >> >> Funny story though. Our music section of the Library of Congress >> isn't as big as I would have hoped it would be. There aren't that >> many books for my instrument. I tried to get an etude book in braille >> music, and first was told that it didn't exist. Then I asked about >> the second book in the series, even though I wasn't working on it yet, >> and I was told that it had been brailled, but it would have to be >> borrowed from RNIB and then shipped to me, a process which could take >> a really long time to sort out between the two libraries. I wonder >> why the two libraries can't interact more for the sharing of >> materials? >> >> Do you guys have a counterpart to bookshare? Honestly, I prefer using >> it to Web Braille, because I think the books are higher quality. I >> also never use BARD so it's kind of pointless to even deal with it >> when Bookshare is available. >> >> On 4/4/14, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Hi Sandra, >>> I'm sure that we have an appreciation for what we have. Many of us >>> here >>> have contributed in one way or another to what the NFB is today. >>> I think this concern comes from a place where people care about what's >>> going on and want to make a change, and hopefully this is what comes of >>> it. >>> >>> Besides I'm sure that there are things people in Europe complain about >>> that americans would roll their eyes at *smile*. >>> Darian >>> On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:41 AM, Sandra Gayer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello again, >>>> While I'm ranting about privaleges In America, you guys have web >>>> Braille while we still have to put up with Braille books being bent in >>>> half and sometimes ripped by members of our loving postal service. >>>> >>>> I'm sorry I'm coming across as a grumpy old woman before my time, hee >>>> hee! I'm just saying, be greatful for what you have and if you don't >>>> like having what the rest of us can only fantasize about, change what >>>> you can. If that doesn't work, build your own organisation whereyou >>>> can implement your ideas for change. I'm sure that's how The NFB >>>> started; someone had a dream about how they could make the world a >>>> better place for visually impaired people. From where I'm sitting, >>>> they're not doing a bad job! >>>> >>>> Very best wishes, >>>> Sandra. >>>> >>>> On 4/4/14, Sandra Gayer wrote: >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> It's hard for me to sit here and listen to all this. I'm in Europe and >>>>> we don't have any of the opportunities you're complaining about; >>>>> conventions, visually impaired leaders, independence philosophy etc. >>>>> You could always live in England where there's disability specific >>>>> hate crime! You wouldn't have any 'Youth Slams' to organise or >>>>> complain about here, trust me! You certainly wouldn't have the luxury >>>>> of criticising how a visually impaired national gathering is run >>>>> because they are very rare here. As for visually impaired people at >>>>> the top of an organisation, don't make me laugh! >>>>> >>>>> Very best wishes, >>>>> Sandra. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/3/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>>>>> Jedi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Extremely well said. Your ease with words, and adeptedness when >>>>>> writing >>>>>> on >>>>>> a >>>>>> mobile device both deserve my public acknowledgement for a job well >>>>>> done. >>>>>> >>>>>> May I say, tongue in cheek, that you inspire me. Smiles. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Antonio M Guimaraes Jr. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 10:32 PM, Jedi Moerke >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh my goodness! I have so many thoughts in my mind and have no idea >>>>>>> where >>>>>>> to start! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't want to get into the details here, but I can honestly say >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have had my experience of disillusionment with the organization. I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> that I felt an outsider, judged, not welcome, isolated, and like I >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> nothing to contribute that anyone wants in this organization. In >>>>>>> short, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> felt completely worthless and that I didn't belong. Were there >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> people and experiences in the organization that helped me to feel >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> way? Yes. But I also came to find that my expectations for life in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> federation were also to blame. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My membership in the Nfb has radically changed my life for the >>>>>>> better. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> honestly don't think I would be the person I am without the >>>>>>> knowledge >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> experience I have gained by my membership in it. Like many newcomers >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> organizations like the Nfb, I immediately became enamored with every >>>>>>> aspect of the organization and initially felt that the organization >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> its members could not do wrong. Unfortunately, a few experiences >>>>>>> radically >>>>>>> shifted my opinion in the opposite direction and I felt completely >>>>>>> disoriented. Self reflection caused me to recognize a few things >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> might be relevant to this discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First, there is a difference between the ideals of the organization >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the members of the organization. I believe the ideals of the >>>>>>> Federation >>>>>>> our sound. I believe that the Federation philosophy strives to >>>>>>> support >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> blind people no matter the circumstance. Dr. Jernigan used to say >>>>>>> that, >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> everything that matters, we are one. I really believe that is the >>>>>>> attitude we all strive for. The reality is that we fall short >>>>>>> sometimes >>>>>>> for one reason or another. But that is no reason to quit. I really >>>>>>> believe >>>>>>> that it is better to stay and encourage members around us to strive >>>>>>> toward >>>>>>> our stated ideals rather than to leave with bitterness in our >>>>>>> hearts >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> a bad attitude. And that is not to say that encouraging others >>>>>>> toward >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> organizational ideals isn't challenging. I myself have faced that >>>>>>> challenge and have come out better for it. To tell you the truth, I >>>>>>> believe the membership I impacted also came out better as well. I >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> believe that we managed to build a stronger relationship as a >>>>>>> result. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also found that I had to look at the expectations I had for myself >>>>>>> within the organization. I perceived a set of rules for perfection >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> member of the organization. It took me a long time and quite a lot >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> personal agonizing to realize that my worth as a blind person and a >>>>>>> member >>>>>>> is not determined by how well I follow these rules. In fact, I >>>>>>> decided >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> do away with these rules altogether. I am honestly much happier for >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> the process of my personal reflection, I learned that many other >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the organization decided to throw away whatever rules they perceived >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> being a perfect Nfb member. And strangely, I started to recognize >>>>>>> overtime >>>>>>> that there really were no rules for Nfb perfection to begin with and >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> it was all in our heads. Are there judgmental people in the >>>>>>> organization? >>>>>>> Absolutely. However, I bet that they are probably judgmental in >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> areas of their life as well. Not just in there Nfb membership. I say >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> hell with them. I can think of better things to do than worry about >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> That said, I do believe that the ideas we call Nfb philosophy make >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> good points and recommendations for what blind people can do to >>>>>>> better >>>>>>> themselves. I am living proof that many of these recommendations >>>>>>> truly >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> make a difference. It's up to you whether or not you are willing to >>>>>>> assess >>>>>>> your own life to determine what recommendations will help you >>>>>>> improve. >>>>>>> Everyone has room to grow, so I encourage all of you too take down >>>>>>> whatever defenses you may have and have a listen. You never know, >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> might find something helpful somewhere. And the stuff that isn't >>>>>>> helpful >>>>>>> to you and your situation? Don't worry about it. In fact, feel free >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> offer your own ideas. There are those who will not listen, but there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> also plenty who will. You never know, your perspective may someday >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> added to our common philosophy. At the very least, your willingness >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> speak your ideas may make room for some other member of the >>>>>>> Federation. >>>>>>> But that can't happen if you decide to leave. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I want to say a few words about the shift our organization seems to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> undergoing. I think that Steve had a point when he said that our >>>>>>> organization is not the same organization from the 80s and 90s. The >>>>>>> field >>>>>>> of blindness has changed dramatically since then. More agencies are >>>>>>> willing to work with us and many are wanting to learn from us. We >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> learned a lot about our capabilities in the last 20 or 30 years. We >>>>>>> now >>>>>>> know that we can drive a car or practice arts in the STEM fields. >>>>>>> Technology has changed our lives in a number of ways making some >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> easier and some things more difficult. Lastly, the way we advocate >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> ourselves has changed a great deal as well. So naturally, the way >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> express ourselves is going to change. But that does not mean that >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> mission has changed. And yes, we have taken on a few initiatives >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> cost >>>>>>> a lot of money. In the current budgetary climate, we do need to work >>>>>>> harder at raising some funds in order to keep these initiatives >>>>>>> afloat. >>>>>>> That said, I believe the national organization recognizes that not >>>>>>> everyone is as enthusiastic about fundraising as others. I think the >>>>>>> national organizations goals for us as members is for each of us to >>>>>>> participate in fundraising in whatever way we can even if our >>>>>>> participation is quiet. Some of us take part via our own personal >>>>>>> contributions. Others are able to persuade people outside of the >>>>>>> organization to donate various sums of money. Some of us prefer to >>>>>>> sell >>>>>>> things for our chapters during convention or Deering meet the blind >>>>>>> campaigns. Whatever it takes. I think the important thing is for you >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> what you can. Every little bit helps. It is likely that you may have >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> enthusiasm for some other part of our mission such as advocacy or >>>>>>> public >>>>>>> education. So spend your time on those efforts rather than moaning >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> our fundraising efforts. Trust me when I tell you that there are >>>>>>> members >>>>>>> who moan about our public education efforts. So it goes both ways >>>>>>> really. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a cane travel instructor, I was particularly struck by someone's >>>>>>> comment regarding their suppose it inability to do structured >>>>>>> discovery >>>>>>> perfectly. I hate to disappoint you and all, but there is no perfect >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> to do structure discovery. Structure discovery is about teaching >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> the skills they need to make sense of the world and to act in it >>>>>>> given >>>>>>> their abilities and challenges. A teacher who is not sensitive to a >>>>>>> person's challenges is no teacher at all. Likewise, a teacher who >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> push a student out of their comfort zone is no teacher at all. And >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> doesn't really matter if that teacher is a travel instructor or a >>>>>>> mentor >>>>>>> at convention. The best teachers keep students in a sweet spot where >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are definitely challenged, but not so challenged as to make the >>>>>>> experience >>>>>>> a total wash. If you are the student so to speak and find yourself >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> teacher who either doesn't push you or who pushes you beyond your >>>>>>> ability, >>>>>>> then it is your responsibility to find somebody who can keep you in >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> sweet spot. It is also up to you to recognize the difference between >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> actual challenges and those that are self-imposed. As a final >>>>>>> thought, >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> you do structure discovery perfectly, then you are probably doing it >>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>> anyway as structured discovery is never perfect, and that is true no >>>>>>> matter what kind of blind person you are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the risk of babbling, let me finish my commentary by saying that >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> of you who have felt displaced as members of our organization are >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> alone. Many of us have had that experience and I think it comes with >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> territory of being one member among many within a vast organization >>>>>>> whose >>>>>>> membership succumbs to human failings. I suggest you keep talking to >>>>>>> people about your experience as you will likely find someone who has >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> there and who can be both a support system and an advisor to you as >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> what you might do to find your place among us once again. Like I >>>>>>> said, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have been there before and I am still working on finding my place. >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> really sure when or how I will get there, but I am still confident >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> will nonetheless. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Respectfully, >>>>>>> Jedi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:28 PM, Darian Smith >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> There has been some wonderful discussion here, and I'm sorry if I >>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>> repeat something that has been said, as i have not been able to get >>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>> caught up on every message. nonetheless, Joe once again has >>>>>>>> brought >>>>>>>> up a host of great points, an I feel compelled to jump in here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It has been mentioned that the organization seems to focus on two >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> primarily; 1. fundraising, and 2. recruiting new members. >>>>>>>> I think both things are very important, but they should go hand >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> hand >>>>>>>> with being exemplary stewards of our funds and a true effort >>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>> accepting /retaining our current membership. different people take >>>>>>>> different things from the organization. Some love what we do and >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be a part of it, others can't give time but can give money, some >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> money but time, some want to be leaders and nothing more, some want >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> members with no responsibility in the organization. >>>>>>>> Honestly, I think it's very important that we continue to make an >>>>>>>> effort >>>>>>>> to accept people where they are in their blindness and meet their >>>>>>>> needs/answer questions where appropriate. doing these things over >>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>> will allow for us to be able to come to know our fellow members as >>>>>>>> people, as friends and this is what keeps people around. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some of us feel like we don't have a real connection with people >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> chapter, or affiliate and this is truly disheartening. Sometimes >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>> to reach out to the right person, sometimes there is more that we >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> and simply giving up won't solve the problem. It of course is >>>>>>>> totally >>>>>>>> possible that for whatever reason the leadership isn't very >>>>>>>> receptive >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> new people or new ideas. If you believe in what the federation >>>>>>>> stands >>>>>>>> for and believe what we do is worth the time you are willing to >>>>>>>> give, >>>>>>>> then finding the right outlet in some part of the organization is >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> important, and I hope that everyone here does this. >>>>>>>> it is my opinion that we each has something unique to offer the >>>>>>>> movement. >>>>>>>> some of us are fundraisers, some of us are natural leaders, some of >>>>>>>> us >>>>>>>> know how to network, and in the grass-roots community work that we >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> of these things are important. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Darian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt >>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with >>>>>>>>> prize >>>>>>>>> drawings and the like. >>>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut >>>>>>>>> due >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>>>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>>>>>>> alternative >>>>>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>>>>>>> judgment >>>>>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception >>>>>>>>> only, >>>>>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>>>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or >>>>>>>>> division >>>>>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>>>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello all. >>>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> life, >>>>>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>>>>>>>> mentoor. >>>>>>>>>> RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited >>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>>>>>>>> summer >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from >>>>>>>>>>> attending >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>>>>>>> leadership >>>>>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a >>>>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>>>> spirit, >>>>>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>>>>>>> nonprofit >>>>>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>>>>>>> disappointing >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer >>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our >>>>>>>>>>> monthly >>>>>>>>>>> dose >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>>>>>>>>>> generating >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>>>>>>> frustrating >>>>>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>>>>>>> development >>>>>>>>>>> efforts >>>>>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also >>>>>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> scope. >>>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>>>>>>> top, >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>>>>>>>>>> blood >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>>>>>>> resources >>>>>>>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>>>>>>> professionals. >>>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>>>>>>> ever >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they >>>>>>>>>>> shun >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were >>>>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had >>>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really >>>>>>>>>>> meant >>>>>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have >>>>>>>>>>> made >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, >>>>>>>>>>> remaining >>>>>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>>>>>>> ourselves >>>>>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well >>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>> what I >>>>>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>>>>>>>>>> verge >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>> guide >>>>>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and >>>>>>>>>>> leave >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will >>>>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to >>>>>>>>>>> reverse >>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the >>>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>>>>>>> Whether >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we >>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> exist. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They >>>>>>>>>>> seem >>>>>>>>>>> happier, >>>>>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. >>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> lesson >>>>>>>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> provide >>>>>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming >>>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because >>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> excel >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>>>>>>>>>> greater >>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>> strength. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here >>>>>>>>>>> lest >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>>>>>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>>>>>>> consume >>>>>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what >>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Soprano Singer >>>>> www.sandragayer.com >>>>> >>>>> Broadcast Presenter >>>>> >>>>> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html >>>>> >>>>> Voiceover Artist >>>>> >>>>> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Soprano Singer >>>> www.sandragayer.com >>>> >>>> Broadcast Presenter >>>> >>>> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html >>>> >>>> Voiceover Artist >>>> >>>> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html Voiceover Artist www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 07:14:36 2014 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:14:36 +0100 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: References: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> <53384425.2050002@gtwebdesign.us> <5339471B.5020703@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Hello, I love the Samsung Captivate Glide which is an Android phone. It has a physical keyboard and talkback is on it. You can access the internet well with Firefox. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 3/31/14, Phil wrote: > oh man! Are those additional software deletable? > > > > On 3/31/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >> Hello, >> It will just be software you can ignore. The software the carriers >> usually put on there just takes up a lot of storage space. For example >> I use a Samsung Galaxy S4 I bought thru AT&T and the carrier software >> and Samsungs took up nearly 8gig of the 16gig on board storage. >> >> Greg Wocher >> >> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >> >> On 3/31/2014 5:45 AM, Phil wrote: >>> Hi Greg, >>> When you say the phone will be loaded with Verizon software, or >>> T-Mobiel for that matter, would that make the phone less accessible? >>> Or just additional apps that I can simply ignore? >>> Thanks. >>> Phil >>> >>> On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> The only way to get a play edition phone is by ordering it from the >>>> Google Play store unfortunately. If you get the one Verizon sells it >>>> will still be a really good phone but it will not get updates as fast. >>>> Also the non play edition will be loaded with all Verizon's software. >>>> >>>> Greg Wocher >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >>>> >>>> On 3/30/2014 8:48 AM, Phil wrote: >>>>> Hi Greg, >>>>> >>>>> How does one get a Google Play edition phone? Say if I go to Verizon >>>>> store and get a Moto X, do I ask for Google Play edition? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> I would suggest either: >>>>>> 1. Google Nexus 5 >>>>>> 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition >>>>>> 3. Motorola Moto G- Google Play edition. >>>>>> All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one of >>>>>> these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They >>>>>> are >>>>>> all at the >>>>>> $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store >>>>>> editions >>>>>> because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on >>>>>> them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Greg Wocher >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? >>>>>>> Pro's >>>>>>> and con's? >>>>>>> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >>>>>>> and popular Android smartphones. >>>>>>> Looking forward to hearing your views. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Phil >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html Voiceover Artist www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer From jim.hulme at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 10:56:25 2014 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 06:56:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: References: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> <53384425.2050002@gtwebdesign.us> <5339471B.5020703@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Hello NABS List and Sandra Gayer, If anyone was wondering if they would like to see any of the specifications of the type of Android Smartphone that Sandra mentioned @ the NABS List posting here is a great link. I am guessing that this phone or type of Smartphone is only available for purchase in the UK. Is that correct? How much does the phone cost if someone wants to buy it in the United States of America? In your opinion Sandra, do you think that the Samsung Captivate Glide (i927) Android Smartphone is accessible to the blind? Why or why not? Here is the link: Samsung Captivate Glide Hope this helps. Please respond back by e-mail to Jimmy Hulme at: jim.hulme at gmail.com On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 3:14 AM, Sandra Gayer wrote: > Hello, > I love the Samsung Captivate Glide which is an Android phone. It has a > physical keyboard and talkback is on it. You can access the internet > well with Firefox. > > Very best wishes, > Sandra. > > On 3/31/14, Phil wrote: > > oh man! Are those additional software deletable? > > > > > > > > On 3/31/14, Greg Wocher wrote: > >> Hello, > >> It will just be software you can ignore. The software the carriers > >> usually put on there just takes up a lot of storage space. For example > >> I use a Samsung Galaxy S4 I bought thru AT&T and the carrier software > >> and Samsungs took up nearly 8gig of the 16gig on board storage. > >> > >> Greg Wocher > >> > >> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher > >> > >> On 3/31/2014 5:45 AM, Phil wrote: > >>> Hi Greg, > >>> When you say the phone will be loaded with Verizon software, or > >>> T-Mobiel for that matter, would that make the phone less accessible? > >>> Or just additional apps that I can simply ignore? > >>> Thanks. > >>> Phil > >>> > >>> On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: > >>>> Hello, > >>>> The only way to get a play edition phone is by ordering it from the > >>>> Google Play store unfortunately. If you get the one Verizon sells it > >>>> will still be a really good phone but it will not get updates as fast. > >>>> Also the non play edition will be loaded with all Verizon's software. > >>>> > >>>> Greg Wocher > >>>> > >>>> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher > >>>> > >>>> On 3/30/2014 8:48 AM, Phil wrote: > >>>>> Hi Greg, > >>>>> > >>>>> How does one get a Google Play edition phone? Say if I go to Verizon > >>>>> store and get a Moto X, do I ask for Google Play edition? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks. > >>>>> Phil > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: > >>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>> I would suggest either: > >>>>>> 1. Google Nexus 5 > >>>>>> 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition > >>>>>> 3. Motorola Moto G- Google Play edition. > >>>>>> All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one > of > >>>>>> these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They > >>>>>> are > >>>>>> all at the > >>>>>> $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store > >>>>>> editions > >>>>>> because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on > >>>>>> them. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Greg Wocher > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? > >>>>>>> Pro's > >>>>>>> and con's? > >>>>>>> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 > accessible > >>>>>>> and popular Android smartphones. > >>>>>>> Looking forward to hearing your views. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>> Phil > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Soprano Singer > www.sandragayer.com > > Broadcast Presenter > > www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html > > Voiceover Artist > > www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From keke.davis91 at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 11:14:01 2014 From: keke.davis91 at gmail.com (Kierra Davis) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:14:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Virginia student roommate fro natational Convention Message-ID: -- Kierra DaviHi all, My name is Kierra. I will be attending National Convention this year. I am currently looking for a few female roommates who would be interested in rooming or having me room with them to help with the expense of the hotel room. Please contact me if anyone is interested. I m blind, and 23. From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 11:19:05 2014 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:19:05 +0100 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI In-Reply-To: <700672A7550846DD8CAF11DB8AC03604@OwnerPC> References: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> <700672A7550846DD8CAF11DB8AC03604@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hello Lillie, I notice you haven't replied to the thread you started. I hope this means the situation has resolved for the better. I would echo everyone's supportive comments and add that the teachers have a duty of care to you as well as this new student. They should not be making you feel as though you are in any way responsible for this child's welfare. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 3/27/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Lilly, > > What a tough situation. Your TVI does not seem too respectful. > I agree with Ryan. On the questions he directs to your para, just step in > and answer them. Also, tell him you are a responsible student who can take > AP classes. Say you can do your work yourself and if you need his help, you > will ask for it. My TVIs always put me in control, especially in high > school. I had to advocate; I had to get my work done and if I missed > something written on the board, my TVI expected me to ask my teachers for > that info orally. > > Also, get your parents backing, and if it continues, they should have words > with him. I would not put up with this either, and I can tell its taking a > psychological tole on you. > > For the mobility problems of the other blind student, I echo others > suggestions; you can assist them > in showing them around a few times. Besides this, it's the mobility > instructor's job. > You could make a list of ten things to assist someone in navigation. You can > get my ideas if needed. But, I think its unreasonable to solicit your input > in changing the school. This student needs the skills to navigate, not the > building to change for him. If the TVI thinks the school should change for > him, that is a red flag. My TVIs always believed I had to adapt and learn > skills, not let the world adapt for me. > I'd reiterate your position that you would not see that anything changed, > but you do hope with some teaching and repetition this student can navigate. > I think braille numbers can help, especially when learning new areas; once > you know a place, you don't need to confirm you're there with the numbers. > But I think its helpful because you really confirm you are there; sighted > people see the signs, and its nice to have them accessible. > So, coming from someone with some spatial challenges, I would not fight > against them. > > The student probably would benefit from tactile maps and if they have > cognitive challenges, they could benefit from tactile cues to tell them what > is next. Basically, I've heard of this technique for those with memory or > verbal challenges; like when someone cannot understand words. > You have objects to represent activities and locations. You as the teacher > hand the student the object and then go to that location. It continues like > this over lessons in a specific pattern. The student then associates the > object with the location. For instance, toy food can represent the > cafeteria, a small ball can represent gym, and a small instrument like a > chime could represent music class. Not sure how it would work for general > classes because they all seem similar. > > If the mobility instructor is good and has experience with a range of mental > abilities, he/she should know this. > > I hope this gets resolved asap. Sorry to hear this since this is totally > opposite of how a TVI should act. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillie Pennington > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 10:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI > > Hello Everyone > > I apologize for my posts on this list being generally being negative as of > late and my questions having a somewhat no-brainer type of answer. > > I have a new TVI this year. Based on what I have heard, my parents and I are > pretty sure that I am the most advanced student on his caseload in terms of > both Braille and/or blindness skills, as well as pretty high up there > intellectually. > > In terms of doing my schoolwork and other school-related things, , I would > classify myself as pretty responsible. I do not feel that I have done > anything major that would result in a lack of mistrust. However, the way > that my TVI sometimes acts towards me makes me feel otherwise. The way he > questions some of my actions or what I say as if I cannot be trusted or as > if I am lying bothers me. For example, he was wanting to talk about lunch > things and who I sat with. He then asked my parra when she came back in the > room if I did do these things (referring to my lunch routine.) Another > example in my mind that sticks out of being mistrustful is when I was > showing my parra the final draft of a research paper because we had been > discussing Common Core State Standards (the topic of the paper) earlier. He > wanted to see the paper, so I gave him the printed copy. He was quite > skeptical about whether the paper was allowed to take an argumentative > stance. I told him that it was, and he asked my parra (who is not in that > class with me) if it was. > > There was an upserge in these problems today which I had mainly put in the > back of my mind. He and my mobility instructor brought the student that I am > supposed to be mentoring next year that I have mentioned in a previous post. > They were mainly looking at the building, which I will admit is weirdly > layed out. > > I had previously provided both a written and oral description of the > building to this student, and my mobility teacher has obviously seen it > working with me. > > I will go off on another side tangent for a moment. After my description and > noting that there were no Braille numbers on the doors, my TVI and the > student were very upset. My TVI sent some emails and there is a meeting > scheduled at some point to discuss getting Braille numbers installed. I > asked if this is really necessary because my sister and I never had that > much trouble navigating the building. My TVI asked if I thought about anyone > but myself. This comment bothered me at the time but I was worrying about > other things at the time so did not give it much thought. > > Today after the student left, my TVI told me that I should help this student > learn the campus. He told me to create a top 10 list; things that would help > the student get around. These things had to be totally blind friendly and > for someone who could not process things as quickly as I could. There are > two problems with this. I do not necessarily know how to see through these > student eyes (or in this case, not see.) I have a bit of periferil vision > that I use along with alternative techniques to navigate the building. Along > with this list, I was expected to come up with things that the > administration could do to change the school. I had trouble coming up with > both of these lists, because I am pretty happy with the school, and > everything basically clicked for me. I did try for about 10 minutes to come > up with things and I did come up with something for counting the doors. > > When I tried to come up with these things, and when I could not and I > explained, my TVI did not believe me. He said that it certainly took more > time for me to learn the building. I also explained about the vision thing > and he was quite skeptical. > > I am done with being called a lier. I am done with everything I do being > questioned. I am done trying to do a job that I feel is the mobility > instructors job (with this list.) I felt like I was thrust into this > position. I do not want to be generalized in this crusade about Braille > numbers about all students who are blind needing them. > > > > I want to confront him about this tomorrow. I felt like in a way he was > bullying me today. I want to not dread my study hall every day for what he > may say. However, I know that I have to pick and choose my battles. I am not > sure if this is worth confronting him about. I am going to for sure tell him > that I cannot do anymore for this student besides just helping a blind > person mentally adjust psychologically to high school. I have an AP test in > 6 weeks and I need to focus on preparing for that. > > I have lost sleep over this student. I have no real attachment to this > person but I do have a fear that if I am not the one actively doing things > that this student will fall into the wayside. I am also going to tell him > that I do not want to be included in the Braille number discussions and that > I am perfectly happy with the way things are, and that I do not want any of > these arguments being made for "all blind students" because that is not > true. > > However, I do not know if I have the right to do this. My parents think I > should help because otherwise no one else will. I feel like I am being > manipulated, but I still in a way feel guilty. I am not going to mention the > skepticism and how it makes me feel, but I will bring up my unhappiness with > the arrangements for this student. > > I will also speak to my mobility instructor on my next lesson. My TVI is the > only one I am hearing these things from. I am not going to bad mouth my TVI, > but I will say that I have been asked to spend time doing things and making > lists that I do not feel that I have the authority or the experience to > make. > > > > Is there some other way to do this? I am going to be as respectful as I can, > but for me this has to end. Am I doing the right thing? I do not know what > else to do in terms of other options. I apologize for the long post. > > Thank You, > > Lillie > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html Voiceover Artist www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 13:12:57 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 09:12:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Information About The TEACH Act Message-ID: <534bdf04.e220ec0a.2b79.2253@mx.google.com> Hey Nabs members hope you're all doing well. I'm working on an article about the TEACH Act for the Student Slate. Can any of you provide me with stories about how it would have helped you in the past? Can you provide me with some links to information about it? Please respond as soon as possible. From frandi.galindo at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 13:32:29 2014 From: frandi.galindo at gmail.com (frandi.galindo at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:32:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television In-Reply-To: <261F3D2A-18E4-41AE-AFEB-45F2FD0060BC@gmail.com> References: <5EED384964CE4FC489B2E478B9676917@HomeBase><97ECF64D-E67E-4DB9-97AD-EE12AC5EC030@gmail.com> <261F3D2A-18E4-41AE-AFEB-45F2FD0060BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F8A465B9FF3425490DAE20D52787576@HomeBase> I myself am totally unable to see anything, and I find the netflix app extremely accessable. What do others outtheir find unaccessable about it? as for the netflix website, it is a pain in the bum to navigate. -----Original Message----- From: Antonio Guimaraes Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television Many shows are available on Netflix and you mitt only need a membership for that. The IOS app is pretty inaccessible for NetFlix, bt if one will sit down to a TV, why not bring it up on a browser instead. Antonio On Apr 13, 2014, at 5:57 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > This is a great question, and one I've been wondering about myself > since my roommates last semester would regularly watch shows like Once > Upon a Time, Dr. Who, and Sherlock together on their computers. I > have a few shows I'd like to start watching (primarily the Big Bang > Theory), and it would be nice if I could access them on my phone or > Android tablet with an app, since I know the Netflix app and web site > can be cumbersome for jaws to handle. My family has Time Warner Are > there any apps for TWC that are similar to the ones offered by > Comcast? > > On 4/13/14, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: >> Anjelinac >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 12, 2014, at 11:03 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Good morning keri >>> There is an app for the iPhone called whats on wich was created by >>> comcast. With this app you are able to look at the tv guide for any >>> indevidual channel comcast offers, change your channel with the tap of a >>> button, set reminders for your favorite shows, and many other things. >>> As >>> for the on demand thing, there is another app by comcast called tv go. >>> You can watch movies, tv shows, and many other things. Unfortunately >>> you >>> must have the network on your package that your show has. For example, >>> if >>> you wanted to watch Sex and the City, you would have to have >>> HPO, and if you wanted to watch American idol, you would have to have >>> fox. >>> You must have an account with comcast, and an online ID and password >>> from >>> them.Both of these apps I find to be completely accessible. There are >>> other tv guide apps out their, but they are not as good. Some shows are >>> discriptive like CSI and criminal minds. Unfortunatly, I am not sure >>> how >>> to activate such features. Each telivision is different. Hope this >>> helps. >>> -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten >>> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:14 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Questions About Accessing/Watching Television >>> >>> Hi All: >>> >>> When I was younger, (many years ago) I used to watch TV all the time. >>> I loved and primarily watched shows on channels such as ABC Family, >>> MTV, and the CW (formerly the WB) so they had a lot of talking in them >>> so I could follow along with what was going on pretty well just by >>> listening to the context clues. >>> I would like to get back into watching television. >>> First, are popular television shows described? Could I go to a certain >>> setting or something on my TV and access an audio described version of >>> the shows? >>> For those of you who love and regularly watch TV, do you just listen >>> and try to use context clues to figure out what is going on or how do >>> you keep yourself interested in the show when there is usually so much >>> action and shows are very visual? >>> Also, being that I likely won't be home when the shows I want to watch >>> air, is there any way to access on demand through Exfinity/Comcast (my >>> cable provider)? I know sighted people can access on demand through >>> the menus on the remote control but of course neither my remote nor >>> Television have speech so I can't access the menus or anything like >>> that. For those of you who watch tv regularly, how do you get around >>> this? >>> Is there an app I could download on the Iphone or something to maybe >>> somehow control my TV using the Iphone to access the on demand menus? >>> I know these questions may sound weird, but I haven't really watched >>> TV in so long the times have sort of changed. Television seems to be a >>> huge thing for sighted people and I'd like to get back into watching >>> popular TV shows again. I know I can access TV listings through NFB >>> Newsline. >>> Thanks, >>> Kerri >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com >>> I don't like TV shows you there that are described. I find that the >>> descriptions drown out the regular audio talking. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/frandi.galindo%40gmail.com From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Mon Apr 14 15:58:40 2014 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (Leye-Shprintse) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 08:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Feed Aggregators Message-ID: <1397491120.29641.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> BS"D Dear NABS, I wonder which web-based feed aggregators you use and if they are accessible with VoiceOver and Jaws? Thank you! LeSholom, Leye-Shprintse Öberg <3 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 16:19:13 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:19:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: BARD is offline References: <01a101cf57eb$93c3fda0$bb4bf8e0$@lbph.lib.md.us> Message-ID: <2457A05F-E053-4F74-8FA6-5CA2E77CEE14@gmail.com> I'm sorry for the cross-post, but this is important information for any BARD user. See below. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: Mollyne Honor > Date: April 14, 2014 at 10:12:32 AM EDT > To: > Subject: FW: BARD is offline > Reply-To: Mollyne Honor > > > > BARD is currently offline. It is expected to be up and running Thursday at 12:00 AM ET. Sorry for the inconvenience. > > From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 18:39:33 2014 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:39:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Meet Sabrina McKiernan, A Musician On The Rise And More On Tonight's Djd Invasion Message-ID: Hi All! The subject says it all. Tonight's going to be a very busy and jam packed Djd Invasion. Want to qualify for the 20 dollar gift card? Want to meet an up and coming Irish musician? Then read on! The fun starts tonight at 7 PM eastern until 10. This jam packed 180 minute show will feature Our usual blend of musical variety, ranging from pop to rock to country and maybe a splash of a cappella In the first hour, at around 7:30PM eastern, we'll be hearing some new music from a blind irish singer named Sabrina McKiernan. She has a new album out called I Am The Song, and you can learn more about her and buy it at http://www.sabrinamusic.net I'll be interviewing this young lady, and playing a couple of songs from her album, so be sure to check that out. Then, we'll be doing the first two qualification rounds in The Djd Invasion Trivia Tournament, where our champion will receive either a 20 dollar amazon ir ITunes gift card of his or her choice. For more details about the tournament, head on over to http://www.daviddunphyradio.com/contest With all this plus your requests, there will be plenty going on tonight that you won't want to miss. During the show, you can contact me in one of the following ways: Via skype at daviddunphyradio Via telephone at 516 945 9165 Via twitter at ddunphyradio or sky106radio Or via teamtalk at http://www.daviddunphyradio.com To listen to tonight's awesomeness, head on over to http://www.daviddunphyradio.com Log on to http://sky106.net or put the following into your media player of choice: http://listen.sky106.net:9016/stream Regardless of how you tune in, I hope to see you all there for a night of music, entertainment, and most importantly, fun! >From David Dunphy From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 14 19:44:26 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:44:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI In-Reply-To: References: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net><700672A7550846DD8CAF11DB8AC03604@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Well said Sandra! -----Original Message----- From: Sandra Gayer Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 7:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI Hello Lillie, I notice you haven't replied to the thread you started. I hope this means the situation has resolved for the better. I would echo everyone's supportive comments and add that the teachers have a duty of care to you as well as this new student. They should not be making you feel as though you are in any way responsible for this child's welfare. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 3/27/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Lilly, > > What a tough situation. Your TVI does not seem too respectful. > I agree with Ryan. On the questions he directs to your para, just step in > and answer them. Also, tell him you are a responsible student who can take > AP classes. Say you can do your work yourself and if you need his help, > you > will ask for it. My TVIs always put me in control, especially in high > school. I had to advocate; I had to get my work done and if I missed > something written on the board, my TVI expected me to ask my teachers for > that info orally. > > Also, get your parents backing, and if it continues, they should have > words > with him. I would not put up with this either, and I can tell its taking a > psychological tole on you. > > For the mobility problems of the other blind student, I echo others > suggestions; you can assist them > in showing them around a few times. Besides this, it's the mobility > instructor's job. > You could make a list of ten things to assist someone in navigation. You > can > get my ideas if needed. But, I think its unreasonable to solicit your > input > in changing the school. This student needs the skills to navigate, not the > building to change for him. If the TVI thinks the school should change for > him, that is a red flag. My TVIs always believed I had to adapt and learn > skills, not let the world adapt for me. > I'd reiterate your position that you would not see that anything changed, > but you do hope with some teaching and repetition this student can > navigate. > I think braille numbers can help, especially when learning new areas; once > you know a place, you don't need to confirm you're there with the numbers. > But I think its helpful because you really confirm you are there; sighted > people see the signs, and its nice to have them accessible. > So, coming from someone with some spatial challenges, I would not fight > against them. > > The student probably would benefit from tactile maps and if they have > cognitive challenges, they could benefit from tactile cues to tell them > what > is next. Basically, I've heard of this technique for those with memory or > verbal challenges; like when someone cannot understand words. > You have objects to represent activities and locations. You as the teacher > hand the student the object and then go to that location. It continues > like > this over lessons in a specific pattern. The student then associates the > object with the location. For instance, toy food can represent the > cafeteria, a small ball can represent gym, and a small instrument like a > chime could represent music class. Not sure how it would work for general > classes because they all seem similar. > > If the mobility instructor is good and has experience with a range of > mental > abilities, he/she should know this. > > I hope this gets resolved asap. Sorry to hear this since this is totally > opposite of how a TVI should act. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillie Pennington > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 10:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI > > Hello Everyone > > I apologize for my posts on this list being generally being negative as of > late and my questions having a somewhat no-brainer type of answer. > > I have a new TVI this year. Based on what I have heard, my parents and I > are > pretty sure that I am the most advanced student on his caseload in terms > of > both Braille and/or blindness skills, as well as pretty high up there > intellectually. > > In terms of doing my schoolwork and other school-related things, , I would > classify myself as pretty responsible. I do not feel that I have done > anything major that would result in a lack of mistrust. However, the way > that my TVI sometimes acts towards me makes me feel otherwise. The way he > questions some of my actions or what I say as if I cannot be trusted or as > if I am lying bothers me. For example, he was wanting to talk about lunch > things and who I sat with. He then asked my parra when she came back in > the > room if I did do these things (referring to my lunch routine.) Another > example in my mind that sticks out of being mistrustful is when I was > showing my parra the final draft of a research paper because we had been > discussing Common Core State Standards (the topic of the paper) earlier. > He > wanted to see the paper, so I gave him the printed copy. He was quite > skeptical about whether the paper was allowed to take an argumentative > stance. I told him that it was, and he asked my parra (who is not in that > class with me) if it was. > > There was an upserge in these problems today which I had mainly put in the > back of my mind. He and my mobility instructor brought the student that I > am > supposed to be mentoring next year that I have mentioned in a previous > post. > They were mainly looking at the building, which I will admit is weirdly > layed out. > > I had previously provided both a written and oral description of the > building to this student, and my mobility teacher has obviously seen it > working with me. > > I will go off on another side tangent for a moment. After my description > and > noting that there were no Braille numbers on the doors, my TVI and the > student were very upset. My TVI sent some emails and there is a meeting > scheduled at some point to discuss getting Braille numbers installed. I > asked if this is really necessary because my sister and I never had that > much trouble navigating the building. My TVI asked if I thought about > anyone > but myself. This comment bothered me at the time but I was worrying about > other things at the time so did not give it much thought. > > Today after the student left, my TVI told me that I should help this > student > learn the campus. He told me to create a top 10 list; things that would > help > the student get around. These things had to be totally blind friendly and > for someone who could not process things as quickly as I could. There are > two problems with this. I do not necessarily know how to see through these > student eyes (or in this case, not see.) I have a bit of periferil vision > that I use along with alternative techniques to navigate the building. > Along > with this list, I was expected to come up with things that the > administration could do to change the school. I had trouble coming up with > both of these lists, because I am pretty happy with the school, and > everything basically clicked for me. I did try for about 10 minutes to > come > up with things and I did come up with something for counting the doors. > > When I tried to come up with these things, and when I could not and I > explained, my TVI did not believe me. He said that it certainly took more > time for me to learn the building. I also explained about the vision thing > and he was quite skeptical. > > I am done with being called a lier. I am done with everything I do being > questioned. I am done trying to do a job that I feel is the mobility > instructors job (with this list.) I felt like I was thrust into this > position. I do not want to be generalized in this crusade about Braille > numbers about all students who are blind needing them. > > > > I want to confront him about this tomorrow. I felt like in a way he was > bullying me today. I want to not dread my study hall every day for what he > may say. However, I know that I have to pick and choose my battles. I am > not > sure if this is worth confronting him about. I am going to for sure tell > him > that I cannot do anymore for this student besides just helping a blind > person mentally adjust psychologically to high school. I have an AP test > in > 6 weeks and I need to focus on preparing for that. > > I have lost sleep over this student. I have no real attachment to this > person but I do have a fear that if I am not the one actively doing things > that this student will fall into the wayside. I am also going to tell him > that I do not want to be included in the Braille number discussions and > that > I am perfectly happy with the way things are, and that I do not want any > of > these arguments being made for "all blind students" because that is not > true. > > However, I do not know if I have the right to do this. My parents think I > should help because otherwise no one else will. I feel like I am being > manipulated, but I still in a way feel guilty. I am not going to mention > the > skepticism and how it makes me feel, but I will bring up my unhappiness > with > the arrangements for this student. > > I will also speak to my mobility instructor on my next lesson. My TVI is > the > only one I am hearing these things from. I am not going to bad mouth my > TVI, > but I will say that I have been asked to spend time doing things and > making > lists that I do not feel that I have the authority or the experience to > make. > > > > Is there some other way to do this? I am going to be as respectful as I > can, > but for me this has to end. Am I doing the right thing? I do not know what > else to do in terms of other options. I apologize for the long post. > > Thank You, > > Lillie > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html Voiceover Artist www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 14 20:22:15 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 16:22:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations Message-ID: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> Hi all, Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this was trouble. Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but it should read as a link with screen readers. Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have instant access, not wait for the mailed books. I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to bookshelf; they were added. Then, I attempted to install their download manager. The learning ally is no ally to us. The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully downloaded a lot of books! The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I see it in my computer as I searched. I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good condition. But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen readers. I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. Thanks. Ashley From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 20:38:59 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 16:38:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind Message-ID: <534c478f.c2c5ec0a.1e97.ffffcce2@mx.google.com> Good Afternoon Nabs Members, I have a question for all of you. Have any of you heard anything about the Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind? I know that the publication was suspended in January but I have not heard anthing since them. In his last letter the editor promised that he would keep the readers informed about what was going on, but I have not heard anything. Please respod as soon as possible. From nightfury19 at verizon.net Mon Apr 14 20:53:54 2014 From: nightfury19 at verizon.net (Melissa Hambleton) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 16:53:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind In-Reply-To: <534c478f.c2c5ec0a.1e97.ffffcce2@mx.google.com> References: <534c478f.c2c5ec0a.1e97.ffffcce2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <001301cf5823$a63b0860$f2b11920$@verizon.net> I haven't heard anything thus far...I have been wondering the same thing myself. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:39 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind Good Afternoon Nabs Members, I have a question for all of you. Have any of you heard anything about the Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind? I know that the publication was suspended in January but I have not heard anthing since them. In his last letter the editor promised that he would keep the readers informed about what was going on, but I have not heard anything. Please respod as soon as possible. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nightfury19%40verizon.ne t From kd8qiq at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 20:58:50 2014 From: kd8qiq at gmail.com (jeff crouch- k8tvv) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 16:58:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] studying psych and medicine Message-ID: Hi all, So I am still in highschool and am in tenth grade. I am thinking of wanting to study to be a psychologist and later on then studying psychiatry. now I know I could get my masters in psychology, but when it comes to psychiatry you study to be a docter who handles psych meds. My question is this possible to study medicine even know I'm blind, or would I run in to problems. Your imput would be greatly apreashiated. thanks -- Skype: magic2127 FB: apdc19 at gmail.com http://www.twitter.com/k8tvv 73 K8TVV Jeff Crouch From mikgephart at icloud.com Mon Apr 14 21:16:12 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:16:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <6EC2DBAC-9BFE-482D-9596-A3028D373745@icloud.com> Ashley, I sent it to a helpful member services rep. Mikayla Sent from my iPad > On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > > Hi all, > > Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this was trouble. > Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but it should read as a link with screen readers. > > Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have instant access, not wait for the mailed books. > > I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to bookshelf; they were added. > Then, I attempted to install their download manager. > > The learning ally is no ally to us. > The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully downloaded a lot of books! > > The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I see it in my computer as I searched. > > I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. > > This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good condition. > > But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. > > > I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen readers. > > I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Apr 14 23:49:36 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 17:49:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] studying psych and medicine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeff, The short answer is yes. I know of at least two blind psychiatrists: Tim Cordes and David Hartman. Tim Cordes spoke at the 2010 NFB convention. I don't think I have his contact info anymore, but if you Google him you can probably find a way to be in touch with him. I contacted him by email when I was in high school and he was in med school, I think, and he was very helpful. I also began college as a pre-med major and everybody was very supportive. The only real reason a blind student might have trouble going through med school is if the admissions folks or instructors have negative attitudes. However, there is precedent, and if one school rejects you you can just keep applying until you get accepted somewhere. The med school curriculum itself is doable with accommodations. There is also a book by David Hartman called White Coat, White Cane, that is available through Learning Ally. David Hartman went to med school before the Rehab Act and ADA were passed, so he had trouble being admitted, but his experience could still be relevant. Arielle On 4/14/14, jeff crouch- k8tvv wrote: > Hi all, > So I am still in highschool and am in tenth grade. I am thinking of > wanting to study to be a psychologist and later on then studying > psychiatry. now I know I could get my masters in psychology, but when > it comes to psychiatry you study to be a docter who handles psych > meds. My question is this possible to study medicine even know I'm > blind, or would I run in to problems. > Your imput would be greatly apreashiated. > thanks > > -- > Skype: magic2127 > FB: apdc19 at gmail.com > http://www.twitter.com/k8tvv > 73 > K8TVV > Jeff Crouch > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From matt.dierckens at me.com Mon Apr 14 23:20:21 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 19:20:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Access Training featured on Cool Blind Tech Podcast Message-ID: This week, we aare featured on the cool blind tech podcast. You may check us out by downloading the file at http://coolblindtech.com/podcast/blind-access-training-dedicated-to-teaching-you-windows-ios-mac-web-design-and-more4142014 Also, do not forget, sign up for our one month of training for only $64.00, which the promotion ends this Friday at 6:00 pm pacific. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 From matt.dierckens at me.com Mon Apr 14 22:37:19 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 18:37:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Access Training featured on Cool Blind Tech Podcast Message-ID: <5CEA26E5-E590-4912-98E4-A02A374D59BC@me.com> This week, we aare featured on the cool blind tech podcast. You may check us out by downloading the file at http://coolblindtech.com/podcast/blind-access-training-dedicated-to-teaching-you-windows-ios-mac-web-design-and-more4142014 Also, do not forget, sign up for our one month of training for only $64.00, which the promotion ends this Friday at 6:00 pm pacific. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 From matt.dierckens at me.com Tue Apr 15 00:21:48 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 20:21:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] sorry about double post Message-ID: <587AE99E-49DD-478D-ACB9-87DC9620D660@me.com> hey all, sorry about the double posting. Not sure why that happened. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 02:26:51 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:26:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind In-Reply-To: <001301cf5823$a63b0860$f2b11920$@verizon.net> References: <534c478f.c2c5ec0a.1e97.ffffcce2@mx.google.com> <001301cf5823$a63b0860$f2b11920$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0B019DB7-5310-4522-9D5E-E1B13A9AD57D@gmail.com> From the last I heard of the magazine, it seems as though they were having a shortage of funding which caused them to temporarily suspend publication. I have not heard anything about when it is expected to resume circulation. It is a shame if they have to permanently close down the Ziegler, as I have found it to be a generally good source of information for many years. However, it seems that it is now in the hands of the magazine's Board to decide what will become of the Ziegler. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:53 PM, "Melissa Hambleton" wrote: > > I haven't heard anything thus far...I have been wondering the same thing > myself. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:39 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind > > Good Afternoon Nabs Members, > > I have a question for all of you. Have any of you heard anything about the > Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind? I know that the publication was > suspended in January but I have not heard anthing since them. In his last > letter the editor promised that he would keep the readers informed about > what was going on, but I have not heard anything. Please respod as soon as > possible. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nightfury19%40verizon.ne > t > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 02:32:41 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:32:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> I agree and have had many similar frustrations. Since their rebranding as Learning Ally, I believe, they have shifted their focus from the blind to those with learning disabilities, leaving us all but forgotten. Sad but true. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this was trouble. > Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but it should read as a link with screen readers. > > Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have instant access, not wait for the mailed books. > > I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to bookshelf; they were added. > Then, I attempted to install their download manager. > > The learning ally is no ally to us. > The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully downloaded a lot of books! > > The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I see it in my computer as I searched. > > I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. > > This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good condition. > > But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. > > > I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen readers. > > I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From NShaheen at nfb.org Tue Apr 15 02:44:32 2014 From: NShaheen at nfb.org (Shaheen, Natalie) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:44:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Students needed for research Message-ID: Blind Students: There is a doctoral student in Texas doing research who needs your help. A blurb from her is below. What is important to you? What matters? A new research project is working with young adults who are blind in order to learn the answers to these questions. If you are 18 to 25 years old, are in a college, vocational or transition program, and have been blind since age two or before, you could be part of this important study. For more information and/or to volunteer, call 512-571-3910 or email rebecca.sheffield at ttu.edu. Read more about the study at www.rebeccasheffield.com/study. Please contact Rebecca directly if you are interested in participating. Thank you, Natalie Shaheen From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 02:51:14 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:51:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC> Chris, Couldn't have said it better. I attempted to do the online downloads to no avail. I was able to browse the catalog, select the books I wanted, and add to bookshelf, and that's as far as I got. I have attempted to download the darn manager twice with the same results. I'm serously contemplating bookshare now. How does bookshare compare with learning ally? Is the site and download process simple? I know its daisy text. Is the text marked simliar to learning ally where its by part, chapter, and subsection of the chapter? Does bookshare have the same textbooks and variety as learning ally? What are the formats now? I hear they are adding new formats all the time. Can the daisy software they give you have human like sounding speech? I heard they were adding mp3 files. Bookshare started as a source for more leisure type reading, but I know now they have changed and gotten more and more texts from publishers. There isn't much choice for accessible texts. Learning ally and bookshare are the two main sources. Even if I used bookshare, not all my books would be there, so I'd need learning ally too. So, perhaps, I'm therefore stuck with learning ally even though I feel they are leaving the blind segment behind, a segment that they were founded upon. Chris, you are more tech savvy than me, so to hear you have trouble too makes me feel better. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 10:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations I agree and have had many similar frustrations. Since their rebranding as Learning Ally, I believe, they have shifted their focus from the blind to those with learning disabilities, leaving us all but forgotten. Sad but true. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for > nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this > was trouble. > Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can > do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it > all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its > barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole > line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the > links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does > not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but > it should read as a link with screen readers. > > Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the > darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but > sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have > instant access, not wait for the mailed books. > > I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to > bookshelf; they were added. > Then, I attempted to install their download manager. > > The learning ally is no ally to us. > The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully > downloaded a lot of books! > > The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was > no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, > so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we > determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I > see it in my computer as I searched. > > I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with > the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. > > This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my > disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever > since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues > with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the > greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC > recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They > sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It > worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good > condition. > > But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut > critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, > they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my > increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? > Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not > want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. > > > I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said > there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen > readers. > > I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bre.brown24 at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 03:14:58 2014 From: bre.brown24 at gmail.com (Bre Brown) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:14:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Notes Message-ID: Greetings, As our semesters are wrapping up, it is time for another round of NABS Notes. If your state division has something you would like to have in the bulletin, please send it to me off list at bre.brown24 at gmail.com by Thursday, April 17th. We are excited to hear about what all of our devisions are doing. Thank you Bre Brown Board member, National Association of Blind Students From louvins at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 03:27:23 2014 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:27:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> <9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley. I have downloaded books with the download manager before. There is an option to download the books as regular .zip files like you wood from bard, and not even use the download manager at all. I don't know. They make the download process way more complicated than it already is. Why don't they like any other reasonable website once you find your search result after doing a search have one simple download link, to a plain ordinary zip file, you just download the zip file, extract it, and there you have the book you need. I have a membership with learning ally at the moment, because I needed it for one last book for my online science class, but I have gotten my associates now. One very interesting thing about learning ally books that they don't tell you, is, there books aren't in any special format needing a special user key at all. If you take a look at a learning ally book after it has been downloaded, you find a bunch of regular mp3 files which would play on your computer. The trick is getting those files organized in a playable mannor as far as order goes. On 4/14/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Chris, > Couldn't have said it better. I attempted to do the online downloads to no > avail. > I was able to browse the catalog, select the books I wanted, and add to > bookshelf, and that's as far as I got. > I have attempted to download the darn manager twice with the same results. > > I'm serously contemplating bookshare now. > How does bookshare compare with learning ally? Is the site and download > process simple? I know its daisy text. Is the text marked simliar to > learning ally where its by part, chapter, and subsection of the chapter? > Does bookshare have the same textbooks and variety as learning ally? > What are the formats now? I hear they are adding new formats all the time. > Can the daisy software they give you have human like sounding speech? > I heard they were adding mp3 files. > > Bookshare started as a source for more leisure type reading, but I know now > they have changed and gotten more and more texts from publishers. > > There isn't much choice for accessible texts. Learning ally and bookshare > are the two main sources. > Even if I used bookshare, not all my books would be there, so I'd need > learning ally too. > > So, perhaps, I'm therefore stuck with learning ally even though I feel they > are leaving the blind segment behind, a segment that they were founded upon. > Chris, you are more tech savvy than me, so to hear you have trouble too > makes me feel better. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 10:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations > > I agree and have had many similar frustrations. Since their rebranding as > Learning Ally, I believe, they have shifted their focus from the blind to > those with learning disabilities, leaving us all but forgotten. Sad but > true. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for >> nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this >> was trouble. >> Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can >> >> do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it >> all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its >> barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole >> line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the >> links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does >> >> not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but >> >> it should read as a link with screen readers. >> >> Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the >> darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but >> sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have >> instant access, not wait for the mailed books. >> >> I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to >> bookshelf; they were added. >> Then, I attempted to install their download manager. >> >> The learning ally is no ally to us. >> The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully >> downloaded a lot of books! >> >> The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was >> no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, >> so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we >> determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I >> see it in my computer as I searched. >> >> I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with >> the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. >> >> This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my >> disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever >> since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues >> with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the >> >> greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC >> recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They >> >> sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It >> worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good >> condition. >> >> But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut >> critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, >> they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my >> increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? >> Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not >> want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. >> >> >> I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said >> there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen >> readers. >> >> I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. >> >> Thanks. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Apr 15 03:46:11 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 20:46:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140414204104.02123208@comcast.net> Yes, guys, that's why we gotta put blind back in the name! Don't even refer to it as Learning Ally! You know they say, what's in a name? Everything! As far as i'm concerned, that opperation is called Recording for the Blind and serves blind people who can't see printed material! Car :32 PM 4/14/2014, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >I agree and have had many similar frustrations. >Since their rebranding as Learning Ally, I >believe, they have shifted their focus from the >blind to those with learning disabilities, >leaving us all but forgotten. Sad but true. >Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 14, >2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > > Hi >all, > > Do you all think learning ally makes >changes not in our favor for nonvisual access? >Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I >knew this was trouble. > Well, to start, no >longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure >you can do it, but your results do not show you >all you need; before it showed it all in a good >way; like your publisher and copy right year. >Now its barried among links which is harder as >you have to listen to the whole line to hear it >all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you >notice the links to get to the next and >previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does >not recognize them as links. I clicked on it >with enter and it worked, but it should read as >a link with screen readers. > > Now, if that is >not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to >use the darn download manager. Thankfully, I >usually use the old fashion cds, but sometimes >I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download >asap so I have instant access, not wait for the >mailed books. > > I’ll call them again. I >searched for the books and clicked on add to >bookshelf; they were added. > Then, I attempted >to install their download manager. > > The >learning ally is no ally to us. > The old >download manager was screen reader friendly and >I successfully downloaded a lot of books! > > >The download manager does not give a lot of >screen prompts, and there was no way to ensure >it finished installing. I did click on the next >buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, >when I called them last week, we determined it >was not installed since no icon was on desktop, >nor did I see it in my computer as I >searched. > > I don’t know how to get from the >bookshelf step to dowloading them with the >download manager, and then using my victor >reader stratus. > > This is rediculous not to be >user friendly. I cannot express my >disappointment enough that for years I used them >with no issues, ever since high school, and then >in college got my own account. I had issues with >some readers, but not obtaining books. The >readers are not always the greatest quality. >But, the book service was fine. I even asked the >DC recording studio to record a few books, and >they were happy to do so! They sent me my books >in installments either on cassette, or later via >cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books >after recording them in good condition. > > But, >now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. >They have cut critically needed staff in my >opinion from regional offices. Get this, they >cut staff, but then increase your membership >fee! Where is my increased 25 dollars going? >Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? Oh, >maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic >population, which does not want the name >dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. > > > >I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid >download manager. they said there is a >specialist who can better help me who knows >about screen readers. > > I’m curious about >your experiences with downloads. > > Thanks. > >Ashley > >_______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or >get your account info for nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Apr 15 04:00:05 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:00:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind In-Reply-To: <0B019DB7-5310-4522-9D5E-E1B13A9AD57D@gmail.com> References: <534c478f.c2c5ec0a.1e97.ffffcce2@mx.google.com> <001301cf5823$a63b0860$f2b11920$@verizon.net> <0B019DB7-5310-4522-9D5E-E1B13A9AD57D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140414205042.021ae198@comcast.net> Good Monday evening, Chris and everyone, An example of what happens upon bringing the almighty dollar into the equation. As far as I know, the Matilda Ziegler around the turn of the century served as a community interest journal addressing the needs of a blind community who, as i understand it, often were spread out in all god forsaken corners of this land, having little contact with other blinks with whom to share tips and tricks, correspond and just discuss blind things. So yes, I hope financial issues are gonna allow our beloved Matilda Ziegler to make a comeback and, i hope they don't try to inflate it, as they always do, into something it was never meant to be. 4/14/2014, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > From the last I heard of the magazine, it seems as though they were > having a shortage of funding which caused them to temporarily > suspend publication. I have not heard anything about when it is > expected to resume circulation. It is a shame if they have to > permanently close down the Ziegler, as I have found it to be a > generally good source of information for many years. However, it > seems that it is now in the hands of the magazine's Board to decide > what will become of the Ziegler. > >Chris Nusbaum > >Sent from my iPhone > > > On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:53 PM, "Melissa Hambleton" > wrote: > > > > I haven't heard anything thus far...I have been wondering the same thing > > myself. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:39 PM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind > > > > Good Afternoon Nabs Members, > > > > I have a question for all of you. Have any of you heard anything about the > > Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind? I know that the publication was > > suspended in January but I have not heard anthing since them. In his last > > letter the editor promised that he would keep the readers informed about > > what was going on, but I have not heard anything. Please respod as soon as > > possible. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nightfury19%40verizon.ne > > t > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From keke.davis91 at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 06:30:53 2014 From: keke.davis91 at gmail.com (Kierra Davis) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 02:30:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] looking for a roommate Message-ID: -- Kierra Davis Hello all, My name is Kierra Davis. I am from Virginia, blind and 23 years old. I am current in search for ore or two female roommate around my same age who are attending the national convention in Florida. If you are interested, please send me a message at: keke.davis91 at gmail.com Thank you, Kierra From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 15:44:00 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:44:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind Message-ID: <534d53ed.543dec0a.4ec4.09af@mx.google.com> Hi everyone I'd like to reply to the thread I started yesterday. I really miss receiving the Matilda Zeigler Magazine For The Blind in my inbox each Monday afternoon. It was through this publication that I kept in touch with what happens in the blindness community. I love being able to copy the recipes that were submitted on a weekly basis. I wonder if the magazine will ever be published again. From mistydbradley at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 16:05:08 2014 From: mistydbradley at gmail.com (Misty Dawn Bradley) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:05:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind In-Reply-To: <534d53ed.543dec0a.4ec4.09af@mx.google.com> References: <534d53ed.543dec0a.4ec4.09af@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I also enjoyed receiving the magazine and always looked forward to receiving it each week. From what it sounded like in the last editor's letter, they thought that there was no need for it due to the access to the Internet and technology that blind people have today, since the magazine was originally started to give the blind access to information at a time where there was no internet for the blind to find information. Needless to say, I found the magazine very informative and was disappointed to learn that, after over 100 years of being in publication, it would no longer be published. Misty -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Bacchus Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind Hi everyone I'd like to reply to the thread I started yesterday. I really miss receiving the Matilda Zeigler Magazine For The Blind in my inbox each Monday afternoon. It was through this publication that I kept in touch with what happens in the blindness community. I love being able to copy the recipes that were submitted on a weekly basis. I wonder if the magazine will ever be published again. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Tue Apr 15 16:23:02 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:23:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> <9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <9E0849C4-BB42-4B19-A993-68E90F4265DB@icloud.com> Do you have their app for IOS? It works pretty good. Sent from my iPad > On Apr 14, 2014, at 10:51 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > > Chris, > Couldn't have said it better. I attempted to do the online downloads to no avail. > I was able to browse the catalog, select the books I wanted, and add to bookshelf, and that's as far as I got. > I have attempted to download the darn manager twice with the same results. > > I'm serously contemplating bookshare now. > How does bookshare compare with learning ally? Is the site and download process simple? I know its daisy text. Is the text marked simliar to learning ally where its by part, chapter, and subsection of the chapter? > Does bookshare have the same textbooks and variety as learning ally? > What are the formats now? I hear they are adding new formats all the time. Can the daisy software they give you have human like sounding speech? > I heard they were adding mp3 files. > > Bookshare started as a source for more leisure type reading, but I know now they have changed and gotten more and more texts from publishers. > > There isn't much choice for accessible texts. Learning ally and bookshare are the two main sources. > Even if I used bookshare, not all my books would be there, so I'd need learning ally too. > > So, perhaps, I'm therefore stuck with learning ally even though I feel they are leaving the blind segment behind, a segment that they were founded upon. > Chris, you are more tech savvy than me, so to hear you have trouble too makes me feel better. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 10:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations > > I agree and have had many similar frustrations. Since their rebranding as Learning Ally, I believe, they have shifted their focus from the blind to those with learning disabilities, leaving us all but forgotten. Sad but true. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this was trouble. >> Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but it should read as a link with screen readers. >> >> Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have instant access, not wait for the mailed books. >> >> I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to bookshelf; they were added. >> Then, I attempted to install their download manager. >> >> The learning ally is no ally to us. >> The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully downloaded a lot of books! >> >> The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I see it in my computer as I searched. >> >> I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. >> >> This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good condition. >> >> But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. >> >> >> I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen readers. >> >> I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. >> >> Thanks. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 16:53:55 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:53:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine ForTheBlind Message-ID: <534d6450.652dec0a.1252.06b4@mx.google.com> Hi Misty I was also disappointed when publication of the magazine was suspended. I enjoyed reading the articles and looked forward to receiving it each week. In the editor's last letter he prmissed to keep us informed about what was going on, but it's been three months and we haven't heard anything. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 17:46:43 2014 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:46:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <9E0849C4-BB42-4B19-A993-68E90F4265DB@icloud.com> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> <9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC> <9E0849C4-BB42-4B19-A993-68E90F4265DB@icloud.com> Message-ID: <447C339D-DF4E-4A08-97D0-C650DAAC59E6@gmail.com> Michaela, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. The iOS app didn't even have a rewind button until about a week ago. If that's not shoddy workmanship I really don't know what is. Best, Kirt Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 15, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > > Do you have their app for IOS? It works pretty good. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Apr 14, 2014, at 10:51 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> >> Chris, >> Couldn't have said it better. I attempted to do the online downloads to no avail. >> I was able to browse the catalog, select the books I wanted, and add to bookshelf, and that's as far as I got. >> I have attempted to download the darn manager twice with the same results. >> >> I'm serously contemplating bookshare now. >> How does bookshare compare with learning ally? Is the site and download process simple? I know its daisy text. Is the text marked simliar to learning ally where its by part, chapter, and subsection of the chapter? >> Does bookshare have the same textbooks and variety as learning ally? >> What are the formats now? I hear they are adding new formats all the time. Can the daisy software they give you have human like sounding speech? >> I heard they were adding mp3 files. >> >> Bookshare started as a source for more leisure type reading, but I know now they have changed and gotten more and more texts from publishers. >> >> There isn't much choice for accessible texts. Learning ally and bookshare are the two main sources. >> Even if I used bookshare, not all my books would be there, so I'd need learning ally too. >> >> So, perhaps, I'm therefore stuck with learning ally even though I feel they are leaving the blind segment behind, a segment that they were founded upon. >> Chris, you are more tech savvy than me, so to hear you have trouble too makes me feel better. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 10:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations >> >> I agree and have had many similar frustrations. Since their rebranding as Learning Ally, I believe, they have shifted their focus from the blind to those with learning disabilities, leaving us all but forgotten. Sad but true. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this was trouble. >>> Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but it should read as a link with screen readers. >>> >>> Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have instant access, not wait for the mailed books. >>> >>> I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to bookshelf; they were added. >>> Then, I attempted to install their download manager. >>> >>> The learning ally is no ally to us. >>> The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully downloaded a lot of books! >>> >>> The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I see it in my computer as I searched. >>> >>> I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. >>> >>> This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good condition. >>> >>> But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. >>> >>> >>> I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen readers. >>> >>> I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Tue Apr 15 20:14:33 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:14:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <447C339D-DF4E-4A08-97D0-C650DAAC59E6@gmail.com> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> <9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC> <9E0849C4-BB42-4B19-A993-68E90F4265DB@icloud.com> <447C339D-DF4E-4A08-97D0-C650DAAC59E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I did not even know that. I just started with the app on Saturday, and have pretty much mastered it. Sent from my iPad > On Apr 15, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Kirt wrote: > > Michaela, > I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. The iOS app didn't even have a rewind button until about a week ago. If that's not shoddy workmanship I really don't know what is. > Best, > Kirt > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 15, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >> >> Do you have their app for IOS? It works pretty good. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Apr 14, 2014, at 10:51 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> >>> Chris, >>> Couldn't have said it better. I attempted to do the online downloads to no avail. >>> I was able to browse the catalog, select the books I wanted, and add to bookshelf, and that's as far as I got. >>> I have attempted to download the darn manager twice with the same results. >>> >>> I'm serously contemplating bookshare now. >>> How does bookshare compare with learning ally? Is the site and download process simple? I know its daisy text. Is the text marked simliar to learning ally where its by part, chapter, and subsection of the chapter? >>> Does bookshare have the same textbooks and variety as learning ally? >>> What are the formats now? I hear they are adding new formats all the time. Can the daisy software they give you have human like sounding speech? >>> I heard they were adding mp3 files. >>> >>> Bookshare started as a source for more leisure type reading, but I know now they have changed and gotten more and more texts from publishers. >>> >>> There isn't much choice for accessible texts. Learning ally and bookshare are the two main sources. >>> Even if I used bookshare, not all my books would be there, so I'd need learning ally too. >>> >>> So, perhaps, I'm therefore stuck with learning ally even though I feel they are leaving the blind segment behind, a segment that they were founded upon. >>> Chris, you are more tech savvy than me, so to hear you have trouble too makes me feel better. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 10:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations >>> >>> I agree and have had many similar frustrations. Since their rebranding as Learning Ally, I believe, they have shifted their focus from the blind to those with learning disabilities, leaving us all but forgotten. Sad but true. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this was trouble. >>>> Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but it should read as a link with screen readers. >>>> >>>> Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have instant access, not wait for the mailed books. >>>> >>>> I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to bookshelf; they were added. >>>> Then, I attempted to install their download manager. >>>> >>>> The learning ally is no ally to us. >>>> The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully downloaded a lot of books! >>>> >>>> The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I see it in my computer as I searched. >>>> >>>> I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. >>>> >>>> This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good condition. >>>> >>>> But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. >>>> >>>> >>>> I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen readers. >>>> >>>> I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 20:54:46 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:54:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC><635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com><9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC><9E0849C4-BB42-4B19-A993-68E90F4265DB@icloud.com><447C339D-DF4E-4A08-97D0-C650DAAC59E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02E6DE2552E74C18AD6F1D8356CEDBCC@OwnerPC> hi, well I don't have an ios device, and If I did, I wouldn't use their ap as I heard some of the buttons have problems; rewind is one of them. Glad it works for you; I like to navigate my books and often rewind to hear a few minutes back; so this would not work for me. -----Original Message----- From: Mikayla Gephart Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 4:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations I did not even know that. I just started with the app on Saturday, and have pretty much mastered it. Sent from my iPad > On Apr 15, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Kirt wrote: > > Michaela, > I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. The iOS app didn't > even have a rewind button until about a week ago. If that's not shoddy > workmanship I really don't know what is. > Best, > Kirt > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 15, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Mikayla Gephart >> wrote: >> >> Do you have their app for IOS? It works pretty good. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Apr 14, 2014, at 10:51 PM, Ashley Bramlett >>> wrote: >>> >>> Chris, >>> Couldn't have said it better. I attempted to do the online downloads to >>> no avail. >>> I was able to browse the catalog, select the books I wanted, and add to >>> bookshelf, and that's as far as I got. >>> I have attempted to download the darn manager twice with the same >>> results. >>> >>> I'm serously contemplating bookshare now. >>> How does bookshare compare with learning ally? Is the site and download >>> process simple? I know its daisy text. Is the text marked simliar to >>> learning ally where its by part, chapter, and subsection of the chapter? >>> Does bookshare have the same textbooks and variety as learning ally? >>> What are the formats now? I hear they are adding new formats all the >>> time. Can the daisy software they give you have human like sounding >>> speech? >>> I heard they were adding mp3 files. >>> >>> Bookshare started as a source for more leisure type reading, but I know >>> now they have changed and gotten more and more texts from publishers. >>> >>> There isn't much choice for accessible texts. Learning ally and >>> bookshare are the two main sources. >>> Even if I used bookshare, not all my books would be there, so I'd need >>> learning ally too. >>> >>> So, perhaps, I'm therefore stuck with learning ally even though I feel >>> they are leaving the blind segment behind, a segment that they were >>> founded upon. >>> Chris, you are more tech savvy than me, so to hear you have trouble too >>> makes me feel better. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 10:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations >>> >>> I agree and have had many similar frustrations. Since their rebranding >>> as Learning Ally, I believe, they have shifted their focus from the >>> blind to those with learning disabilities, leaving us all but forgotten. >>> Sad but true. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for >>>> nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew >>>> this was trouble. >>>> Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you >>>> can do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it >>>> showed it all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. >>>> Now its barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to >>>> the whole line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did >>>> you notice the links to get to the next and previous pages are no >>>> longer links? Jaws does not recognize them as links. I clicked on it >>>> with enter and it worked, but it should read as a link with screen >>>> readers. >>>> >>>> Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the >>>> darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, >>>> but sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I >>>> have instant access, not wait for the mailed books. >>>> >>>> I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to >>>> bookshelf; they were added. >>>> Then, I attempted to install their download manager. >>>> >>>> The learning ally is no ally to us. >>>> The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully >>>> downloaded a lot of books! >>>> >>>> The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there >>>> was no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next >>>> buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last >>>> week, we determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, >>>> nor did I see it in my computer as I searched. >>>> >>>> I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with >>>> the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. >>>> >>>> This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my >>>> disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever >>>> since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues >>>> with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always >>>> the greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the >>>> DC recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do >>>> so! They sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later >>>> via cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them >>>> in good condition. >>>> >>>> But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut >>>> critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, >>>> they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my >>>> increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that >>>> nonprofit? Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, >>>> which does not want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. >>>> >>>> >>>> I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they >>>> said there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about >>>> screen readers. >>>> >>>> I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 20:59:59 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:59:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind In-Reply-To: <001301cf5823$a63b0860$f2b11920$@verizon.net> References: <534c478f.c2c5ec0a.1e97.ffffcce2@mx.google.com> <001301cf5823$a63b0860$f2b11920$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <674E98D29E064652AD7DC3CFF72547CA@OwnerPC> hi, well, if they resume production of the magazine, I'll subscribe. it would be good to have another informational blindness resource. have not subscribed in the past but want to try it as its free and I heard good things about it. -----Original Message----- From: Melissa Hambleton Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:53 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind I haven't heard anything thus far...I have been wondering the same thing myself. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:39 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind Good Afternoon Nabs Members, I have a question for all of you. Have any of you heard anything about the Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind? I know that the publication was suspended in January but I have not heard anthing since them. In his last letter the editor promised that he would keep the readers informed about what was going on, but I have not heard anything. Please respod as soon as possible. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nightfury19%40verizon.ne t _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 21:12:33 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:12:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind In-Reply-To: <534d53ed.543dec0a.4ec4.09af@mx.google.com> References: <534d53ed.543dec0a.4ec4.09af@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, I think they will start it up once they have funding. So you subscribed. What did you like about it? What topics were covered and did it have articles from blind people in various parts of the world? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Bacchus Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind Hi everyone I'd like to reply to the thread I started yesterday. I really miss receiving the Matilda Zeigler Magazine For The Blind in my inbox each Monday afternoon. It was through this publication that I kept in touch with what happens in the blindness community. I love being able to copy the recipes that were submitted on a weekly basis. I wonder if the magazine will ever be published again. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 22:01:59 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 18:01:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind In-Reply-To: <674E98D29E064652AD7DC3CFF72547CA@OwnerPC> References: <534c478f.c2c5ec0a.1e97.ffffcce2@mx.google.com> <001301cf5823$a63b0860$f2b11920$@verizon.net> <674E98D29E064652AD7DC3CFF72547CA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <001f01cf58f6$533f7320$f9be5960$@gmail.com> What is it; what does it do. I will subscribe if it is availab.e, or if it becomes available. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 5:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind hi, well, if they resume production of the magazine, I'll subscribe. it would be good to have another informational blindness resource. have not subscribed in the past but want to try it as its free and I heard good things about it. -----Original Message----- From: Melissa Hambleton Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:53 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind I haven't heard anything thus far...I have been wondering the same thing myself. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 4:39 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind Good Afternoon Nabs Members, I have a question for all of you. Have any of you heard anything about the Matilda Ziegler Magazine For The Blind? I know that the publication was suspended in January but I have not heard anthing since them. In his last letter the editor promised that he would keep the readers informed about what was going on, but I have not heard anything. Please respod as soon as possible. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nightfury19%40verizon.ne t _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 22:08:44 2014 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:08:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations In-Reply-To: <02E6DE2552E74C18AD6F1D8356CEDBCC@OwnerPC> References: <25652B2B275C428E953A5AFAF7B3718C@OwnerPC> <635E39DD-7A54-4E06-B436-0B323F52AC55@gmail.com> <9AAAEF6BA2924FE0A305EC127B53E618@OwnerPC> <9E0849C4-BB42-4B19-A993-68E90F4265DB@icloud.com> <447C339D-DF4E-4A08-97D0-C650DAAC59E6@gmail.com> <02E6DE2552E74C18AD6F1D8356CEDBCC@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Michaela, It's better, but still not great. Try comparing it to the BARD app… I think you'll see what I mean. Best, Kirt Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 15, 2014, at 2:54 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > hi, > well I don't have an ios device, and If I did, I wouldn't use their ap as I heard some of the buttons have problems; rewind is one of them. > > Glad it works for you; I like to navigate my books and often rewind to hear a few minutes back; so this would not work for me. > > > -----Original Message----- From: Mikayla Gephart > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 4:14 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations > > I did not even know that. I just started with the app on Saturday, and have pretty much mastered it. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Apr 15, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >> Michaela, >> I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. The iOS app didn't even have a rewind button until about a week ago. If that's not shoddy workmanship I really don't know what is. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 15, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >>> >>> Do you have their app for IOS? It works pretty good. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Apr 14, 2014, at 10:51 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> Couldn't have said it better. I attempted to do the online downloads to no avail. >>>> I was able to browse the catalog, select the books I wanted, and add to bookshelf, and that's as far as I got. >>>> I have attempted to download the darn manager twice with the same results. >>>> >>>> I'm serously contemplating bookshare now. >>>> How does bookshare compare with learning ally? Is the site and download process simple? I know its daisy text. Is the text marked simliar to learning ally where its by part, chapter, and subsection of the chapter? >>>> Does bookshare have the same textbooks and variety as learning ally? >>>> What are the formats now? I hear they are adding new formats all the time. Can the daisy software they give you have human like sounding speech? >>>> I heard they were adding mp3 files. >>>> >>>> Bookshare started as a source for more leisure type reading, but I know now they have changed and gotten more and more texts from publishers. >>>> >>>> There isn't much choice for accessible texts. Learning ally and bookshare are the two main sources. >>>> Even if I used bookshare, not all my books would be there, so I'd need learning ally too. >>>> >>>> So, perhaps, I'm therefore stuck with learning ally even though I feel they are leaving the blind segment behind, a segment that they were founded upon. >>>> Chris, you are more tech savvy than me, so to hear you have trouble too makes me feel better. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >>>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 10:32 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] learning ally and download frustrations >>>> >>>> I agree and have had many similar frustrations. Since their rebranding as Learning Ally, I believe, they have shifted their focus from the blind to those with learning disabilities, leaving us all but forgotten. Sad but true. >>>> >>>> Chris Nusbaum >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> Do you all think learning ally makes changes not in our favor for nonvisual access? Well, I do. Since they changed their name, I knew this was trouble. >>>>> Well, to start, no longer is the book catalog searching easy. Sure you can do it, but your results do not show you all you need; before it showed it all in a good way; like your publisher and copy right year. Now its barried among links which is harder as you have to listen to the whole line to hear it all, one of which is the year. Oh, and did you notice the links to get to the next and previous pages are no longer links? Jaws does not recognize them as links. I clicked on it with enter and it worked, but it should read as a link with screen readers. >>>>> >>>>> Now, if that is not bad enough, I have tried unsuccessfully to use the darn download manager. Thankfully, I usually use the old fashion cds, but sometimes I’m in a pinch, like now, and need to download asap so I have instant access, not wait for the mailed books. >>>>> >>>>> I’ll call them again. I searched for the books and clicked on add to bookshelf; they were added. >>>>> Then, I attempted to install their download manager. >>>>> >>>>> The learning ally is no ally to us. >>>>> The old download manager was screen reader friendly and I successfully downloaded a lot of books! >>>>> >>>>> The download manager does not give a lot of screen prompts, and there was no way to ensure it finished installing. I did click on the next buttons, so I thought it was installed. Well, when I called them last week, we determined it was not installed since no icon was on desktop, nor did I see it in my computer as I searched. >>>>> >>>>> I don’t know how to get from the bookshelf step to dowloading them with the download manager, and then using my victor reader stratus. >>>>> >>>>> This is rediculous not to be user friendly. I cannot express my disappointment enough that for years I used them with no issues, ever since high school, and then in college got my own account. I had issues with some readers, but not obtaining books. The readers are not always the greatest quality. But, the book service was fine. I even asked the DC recording studio to record a few books, and they were happy to do so! They sent me my books in installments either on cassette, or later via cd. It worked well. I also picked up my books after recording them in good condition. >>>>> >>>>> But, now, as learning ally, the website is terrible. They have cut critically needed staff in my opinion from regional offices. Get this, they cut staff, but then increase your membership fee! Where is my increased 25 dollars going? Where are the costs there in that nonprofit? Oh, maybe to increase outreach to the dislexic population, which does not want the name dislexia in the title of the nonprofit. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I’ll call again. I need help with this stupid download manager. they said there is a specialist who can better help me who knows about screen readers. >>>>> >>>>> I’m curious about your experiences with downloads. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From mistydbradley at gmail.com Tue Apr 15 23:46:45 2014 From: mistydbradley at gmail.com (Misty Dawn Bradley) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:46:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine ForTheBlind In-Reply-To: References: <534d53ed.543dec0a.4ec4.09af@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <04469F764F0643579CA611EA34D331D0@MistyBradleyPC> Hi Ashley, I liked it, because it covered a wide range of topics, including new technologies for the blind being developed, how to use existing technologies, articles about experiences with guide dogs, editorial-type articles on various topics both blindness related and other subjects, articles about personal and meaningful memories that authors had from their past or in their childhood, and a recipe of the week section. There was also a supplement to the magazine that had a pen pal section where readers interested in finding pen pals could list their interests and how they wanted to be contacted. The supplement also had an events section where blindness-related events, such as summer camps and different classes, were posted as readers submitted them. There was also another section for announcements, where readers could announce anything that was going on or talk about promotions in their businesses and other things of this nature. Toward the end, a chat line section was even created to list all chat lines that readers sent in. At the end of the magazine, there was a reader discussion section where readers of the magazine could comment on any of the articles published in the magazine previously. Most of the authors were regular contributors who were blind themselves and shared a lot of their own personal experiences with blindness, guide dogs, and blindness-related technology, but they also had other contributors who were sighted who dealt with subjects such as their experiences with teaching the blind or parenting a blind child, among other things. The magazine always started with a short letter from the editor describing any specific articles that would be in the magazine and if there were any announcements or new sections that would be added. They also changed editors a few months back, so I am not sure if that had anything to do with the discontinuation of it, although I am assuming that that was a decision made by the board as indicated in the editor's last letter. Misty -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 5:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine ForTheBlind Hi, I think they will start it up once they have funding. So you subscribed. What did you like about it? What topics were covered and did it have articles from blind people in various parts of the world? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Bacchus Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind Hi everyone I'd like to reply to the thread I started yesterday. I really miss receiving the Matilda Zeigler Magazine For The Blind in my inbox each Monday afternoon. It was through this publication that I kept in touch with what happens in the blindness community. I love being able to copy the recipes that were submitted on a weekly basis. I wonder if the magazine will ever be published again. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Apr 16 00:32:27 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2014 19:32:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Living in New York City In-Reply-To: <94DB91A1-FB8F-47F1-8778-1E8A1A360CCD@gmail.com> References: <94DB91A1-FB8F-47F1-8778-1E8A1A360CCD@gmail.com> Message-ID: We do have a new york list, also new york students, and dog guide users. All at: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/ Dave At 06:34 PM 4/12/2014, you wrote: >Hey all, > >I have an internship in New York City this summer. I was wondering >if anyone who lived in Manhattan or NYC in general could contact me >off list? I'm wondering about transportation options, tips and >tricks for getting around there, ETC. I've never been to New York >before, so any advice or any NYC knowledge you can give would be appreciated. >I'm really stoked about this internship and am just trying to be as >prepared as possible, because I heard New York is a bit crazy if >you've never been before. :) >Thanks! >Jordyn From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 13:25:47 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:25:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler MagazineForTheBlind In-Reply-To: <04469F764F0643579CA611EA34D331D0@MistyBradleyPC> References: <534d53ed.543dec0a.4ec4.09af@mx.google.com> <04469F764F0643579CA611EA34D331D0@MistyBradleyPC> Message-ID: <547A2B9CB8B045E182C63B134240C019@OwnerPC> Misty, thanks. sounds like a magazine I'd enjoy tooo. I like hearing about assistive tech from various perspectives and human interest stories. If they resume the magazine, I'll subscribe. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Misty Dawn Bradley Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 7:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler MagazineForTheBlind Hi Ashley, I liked it, because it covered a wide range of topics, including new technologies for the blind being developed, how to use existing technologies, articles about experiences with guide dogs, editorial-type articles on various topics both blindness related and other subjects, articles about personal and meaningful memories that authors had from their past or in their childhood, and a recipe of the week section. There was also a supplement to the magazine that had a pen pal section where readers interested in finding pen pals could list their interests and how they wanted to be contacted. The supplement also had an events section where blindness-related events, such as summer camps and different classes, were posted as readers submitted them. There was also another section for announcements, where readers could announce anything that was going on or talk about promotions in their businesses and other things of this nature. Toward the end, a chat line section was even created to list all chat lines that readers sent in. At the end of the magazine, there was a reader discussion section where readers of the magazine could comment on any of the articles published in the magazine previously. Most of the authors were regular contributors who were blind themselves and shared a lot of their own personal experiences with blindness, guide dogs, and blindness-related technology, but they also had other contributors who were sighted who dealt with subjects such as their experiences with teaching the blind or parenting a blind child, among other things. The magazine always started with a short letter from the editor describing any specific articles that would be in the magazine and if there were any announcements or new sections that would be added. They also changed editors a few months back, so I am not sure if that had anything to do with the discontinuation of it, although I am assuming that that was a decision made by the board as indicated in the editor's last letter. Misty -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 5:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine ForTheBlind Hi, I think they will start it up once they have funding. So you subscribed. What did you like about it? What topics were covered and did it have articles from blind people in various parts of the world? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Bacchus Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 11:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine For TheBlind Hi everyone I'd like to reply to the thread I started yesterday. I really miss receiving the Matilda Zeigler Magazine For The Blind in my inbox each Monday afternoon. It was through this publication that I kept in touch with what happens in the blindness community. I love being able to copy the recipes that were submitted on a weekly basis. I wonder if the magazine will ever be published again. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ligne14 at verizon.net Wed Apr 16 13:46:55 2014 From: ligne14 at verizon.net (sami osborne) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:46:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine ForTheBlind Message-ID: <0N4400C5MMAL6SB0@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Hi Misty. I aggree with Ashley, that magazine does sound really interesting. Too bad I'm not subscribed to x; however, do you know if there is a way to see past articles of the magazine? Because if there is, I would definitely read them and subscribe once the magazine is back up thanks to your description. Thank you again for that! Sami. ----- Original Message ----- From: Misty Dawn Bradley References: <0N4400C5MMAL6SB0@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Hi Sami, Their website is at: http://www.matildaziegler.com/ They have an archive of all past magazine issues by month and year. On the home page, they have the last magazine that was published back in January. Misty -----Original Message----- From: sami osborne Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 9:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda ZieglerMagazine ForTheBlind Hi Misty. I aggree with Ashley, that magazine does sound really interesting. Too bad I'm not subscribed to x; however, do you know if there is a way to see past articles of the magazine? Because if there is, I would definitely read them and subscribe once the magazine is back up thanks to your description. Thank you again for that! Sami. ----- Original Message ----- From: Misty Dawn Bradley References: <534d53ed.543dec0a.4ec4.09af@mx.google.com> <04469F764F0643579CA611EA34D331D0@MistyBradleyPC> Message-ID: <31526EC1-C1A6-4243-BE3C-7385CBF21D6B@fuse.net> Is there a way to contact the editor now to here directly from the source? Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 15, 2014, at 7:46 PM, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > > Hi Ashley, > I liked it, because it covered a wide range of topics, including new technologies for the blind being developed, how to use existing technologies, articles about experiences with guide dogs, editorial-type articles on various topics both blindness related and other subjects, articles about personal and meaningful memories that authors had from their past or in their childhood, and a recipe of the week section. There was also a supplement to the magazine that had a pen pal section where readers interested in finding pen pals could list their interests and how they wanted to be contacted. The supplement also had an events section where blindness-related events, such as summer camps and different classes, were posted as readers submitted them. There was also another section for announcements, where readers could announce anything that was going on or talk about promotions in their businesses and other things of this nature. Toward the end, a chat line section was even created to list all chat lines that readers sent in. At the end of the magazine, there was a reader discussion section where readers of the magazine could comment on any of the articles published in the magazine previously. Most of the authors were regular contributors who were blind themselves and shared a lot of their own personal experiences with blindness, guide dogs, and blindness-related technology, but they also had other contributors who were sighted who dealt with subjects such as their experiences with teaching the blind or parenting a blind child, among other things. The magazine always started with a short letter from the editor describing any specific articles that would be in the magazine and if there were any announcements or new sections that would be added. They also changed editors a few months back, so I am not sure if that had anything to do with the discontinuation of it, although I am assuming that that was a decision made by the board as indicated in the editor's last letter. > Misty > > > -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 5:12 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler Magazine ForTheBlind > > Hi, From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 15:48:48 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:48:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Any Updates On The Matilda Ziegler MagazineFor TheBlind Message-ID: <534ea68f.6a99ec0a.5de1.66b3@mx.google.com> It is a magazine that provides information about things in the blindness community. I subscribed to the weekly email edition in October of 2012. I received it each Monday afternoon in my inbox. From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 17:05:00 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:05:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler MagazineForTheBlind Message-ID: <534eb86a.671fec0a.5e1a.ffff8a60@mx.google.com> Hi Lillie I've tried sending him emails several times and I get the same response. The person who writes me back says that they will keep readers informed about what is going on. In their last email they told me that we'd here something at the end of March. I emailed them last week and still have not received a response. From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 22:23:03 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:23:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How to be part of NFB News Line and News Line app, and how to change a folder's name in an iPhone Message-ID: <4227E76254D243D5BDA95C2FCA010DF6@Helga> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, how can I be part of the NFB News Line, and where do I find the News Line app? Also, I just wanted to ask you, do you know how can I change a folder’s name in my iPhone? Just wondering! For instance, I want to help my dad change a folder’s name in his iPhone. The name of his folder is Exchange, but I wanted to change it to something else! How do I do that? He actually put this folder inside the mail app that is in his iPhone. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dandrews at visi.com Wed Apr 16 22:37:49 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 17:37:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Job Opportunity Announcement Summer Engineering/Architect GS-0899-04 (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: > >Colleagues: > >As a blind STEM professional, I am always grateful for having taken >the opportunity to work as an intern in my field while studying as >an undergrad. Therefore, I am passing along this summer job >opportunity to this list. I realize that this is so specific and >something of a shot in the dark (pardon the pun), but if you are a >college student or know a college student: >1. in civil and/or environmental engineering (electrical and >mechanical may also be good fits) or architecture >2. living for the summer in (or willing to live in at own expense) >the New York City, Westpoint (Hudson Valley), or Syracuse area > >These summer jobs may be of interest. Applying requires a fair bit >of online paperwork, which I'd be happy to give advice on, but time >is short since the deadline is next Monday at midnight Eastern Daylight Time. > >Nathanael T. Wales, P.E. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Melendez, Fabian G NAN02 >Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 9:57 AM >To: DLL-CENAN-ALL Employees >Subject: Job Opportunity Announcement Summer Engineering/Architect >GS-0899-04 > >Good morning All, > >Please see the attached announcement (NEFS149711391089010) for a Student >Trainee Engineering/Architect, GS-04. This is a Full Time position with a >NTE date of 27 September 2014. Announcement is open to all U.S. citizens >and students in good academic standing currently enrolled in school. >Announcement opens today, April 14, 2014 with a closing date of April 21, >2014. > >Please do not reply to this email. All inquires to this email can be sent >to NE.MBX.APPLICANTHELP at MAIL.MIL. For questions regarding the status of >your application, eligibility or qualifications determination contact the >Central Resume Processing Center at >usarmy.apg.chra-ne.mbx.applicanthelp at mail.mil, or (410) 306-0137. > >Thank you. > >The Human Resources Staff > > >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Student Trainee Engineering Architect GS 0899 04 Announcement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 40408 bytes Desc: not available URL: From musicproandy at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 22:48:42 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 18:48:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How to be part of NFB News Line and News Line app, and how to change a folder's name in an iPhone In-Reply-To: <4227E76254D243D5BDA95C2FCA010DF6@Helga> References: <4227E76254D243D5BDA95C2FCA010DF6@Helga> Message-ID: You need to apply for Newsline. Go to this site for everything: https://nfb.org/audio-newspaper-service The app is in the App Store of an iOS device. To change a folder's name on the iPhone: 1. Open the folder; 2. 4-finger tap on the top of the screen. You should hear something like, ", heading." 3. Double tap and hold. 4. You should then be able to double tap on the folder name and edit the name. Cheers. On 4/16/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, how can I > be part of the NFB News Line, and where do I find the News Line app? Also, I > just wanted to ask you, do you know how can I change a folder's name in my > iPhone? Just wondering! For instance, I want to help my dad change a > folder's name in his iPhone. The name of his folder is Exchange, but I > wanted to change it to something else! How do I do that? He actually put > this folder inside the mail app that is in his iPhone. I will really > appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding > this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 23:26:34 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 19:26:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How to be part of NFB News Line and News Line app, and how to change a folder's name in an iPhone In-Reply-To: References: <4227E76254D243D5BDA95C2FCA010DF6@Helga> Message-ID: Hi Andy, this is Helga! I'm actually in my dad's iPhone, and I went to his mail app where he has his hotmail and Gmail folders for his invoxes, However, I selected the folder Exchange where his college email messages are located, but whenever I 4 finger tap on the top of the screen inside the folder it doesn't telll me anything about a new folder. I just wanted to ask you, is there any other way to change a folder's name in an iPhone rather than this way only? Just wondering! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Andy Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 6:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How to be part of NFB News Line and News Line app, and how to change a folder's name in an iPhone You need to apply for Newsline. Go to this site for everything: https://nfb.org/audio-newspaper-service The app is in the App Store of an iOS device. To change a folder's name on the iPhone: 1. Open the folder; 2. 4-finger tap on the top of the screen. You should hear something like, ", heading." 3. Double tap and hold. 4. You should then be able to double tap on the folder name and edit the name. Cheers. On 4/16/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, how can > I > be part of the NFB News Line, and where do I find the News Line app? Also, > I > just wanted to ask you, do you know how can I change a folder's name in my > iPhone? Just wondering! For instance, I want to help my dad change a > folder's name in his iPhone. The name of his folder is Exchange, but I > wanted to change it to something else! How do I do that? He actually put > this folder inside the mail app that is in his iPhone. I will really > appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding > this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From musicproandy at gmail.com Wed Apr 16 23:48:29 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 19:48:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How to be part of NFB News Line and News Line app, and how to change a folder's name in an iPhone In-Reply-To: References: <4227E76254D243D5BDA95C2FCA010DF6@Helga> Message-ID: Ah! I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Sory, I'm not sure how to do that. On 4/16/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi Andy, this is Helga! I'm actually in my dad's iPhone, and I went to his > mail app where he has his hotmail and Gmail folders for his invoxes, > However, I selected the folder Exchange where his college email messages are > > located, but whenever I 4 finger tap on the top of the screen inside the > folder it doesn't telll me anything about a new folder. I just wanted to ask > > you, is there any other way to change a folder's name in an iPhone rather > than this way only? Just wondering! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and > God bless!! :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andy > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 6:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How to be part of NFB News Line and News Line app, and > > how to change a folder's name in an iPhone > > You need to apply for Newsline. Go to this site for everything: > https://nfb.org/audio-newspaper-service > > The app is in the App Store of an iOS device. > > To change a folder's name on the iPhone: > 1. Open the folder; > 2. 4-finger tap on the top of the screen. You should hear something > like, ", heading." > 3. Double tap and hold. > 4. You should then be able to double tap on the folder name and edit the > name. > Cheers. > > On 4/16/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com > wrote: >> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, how can >> >> I >> be part of the NFB News Line, and where do I find the News Line app? Also, >> >> I >> just wanted to ask you, do you know how can I change a folder's name in >> my >> iPhone? Just wondering! For instance, I want to help my dad change a >> folder's name in his iPhone. The name of his folder is Exchange, but I >> wanted to change it to something else! How do I do that? He actually put >> this folder inside the mail app that is in his iPhone. I will really >> appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions >> regarding >> this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com > From matt.dierckens at me.com Thu Apr 17 18:02:21 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:02:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion Message-ID: If you are new to iOS, windows, the mac operating system, or looking to learn WordPress, at Blind Access Training, we are currently running a 20% discount for each training service offered. The cost is $64 per-training package. for a month of training where the client will receive training in one of the aforementioned, up-to-6-days a week. If interested, call us between 8 am and 6 pm pacific standard time, or you may email me directly, and I will set you up with the correct department and once payment is made, we will contact you and get started. You may call us at 1-877-774-7670, or if you cannot call us between the hours listed above, leave a message, and a trainer will get back with you, the following business day, or you may email me directly, and I will connect you with the appropriate department. A list of our training packages may be found here: http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ You may make your payment here: http://blindaccesstraining.com/payment-center/ Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Apr 17 20:15:19 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 16:15:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To be clear, is the sail price $64? I think I'm reading this correctly, but I'm making sure. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 17, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: > > If you are new to iOS, windows, the mac operating system, or looking to learn WordPress, at Blind Access Training, we are currently running a 20% discount for each training service offered. The cost is $64 per-training package. for a month of training where the client will receive training in one of the aforementioned, up-to-6-days a week. > If interested, call us between 8 am and 6 pm pacific standard time, or you may email me directly, and I will set you up with the correct department and once payment is made, we will contact you and get started. > You may call us at 1-877-774-7670, or if you cannot call us between the hours listed above, leave a message, and a trainer will get back with you, the following business day, or you may email me directly, and I will connect you with the appropriate department. > A list of our training packages may be found here: > http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ > You may make your payment here: > http://blindaccesstraining.com/payment-center/ > > > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From matt.dierckens at me.com Thu Apr 17 20:19:44 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 16:19:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FC72E86-CCDE-4E48-82DE-A41C0E0450F4@me.com> Hey Chris. Yes, until tomorrow, its $64. Next week, the packages will be changing. Take care. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 17, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > To be clear, is the sail price $64? I think I'm reading this correctly, but I'm making sure. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 17, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: >> >> If you are new to iOS, windows, the mac operating system, or looking to learn WordPress, at Blind Access Training, we are currently running a 20% discount for each training service offered. The cost is $64 per-training package. for a month of training where the client will receive training in one of the aforementioned, up-to-6-days a week. >> If interested, call us between 8 am and 6 pm pacific standard time, or you may email me directly, and I will set you up with the correct department and once payment is made, we will contact you and get started. >> You may call us at 1-877-774-7670, or if you cannot call us between the hours listed above, leave a message, and a trainer will get back with you, the following business day, or you may email me directly, and I will connect you with the appropriate department. >> A list of our training packages may be found here: >> http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ >> You may make your payment here: >> http://blindaccesstraining.com/payment-center/ >> >> >> >> Matthew Dierckens >> Macintosh Trainer >> Blind Access Training >> www.blindaccesstraining.com >> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From jim.hulme at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 08:15:18 2014 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 04:15:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion In-Reply-To: <0FC72E86-CCDE-4E48-82DE-A41C0E0450F4@me.com> References: <0FC72E86-CCDE-4E48-82DE-A41C0E0450F4@me.com> Message-ID: Hello Matt Dierckens. I am interested in your blind training to learn WordPress and I should feel that WordPress is completely accessible to the blind after this seminar or training session. I am willing to pay by credit card and you must please contact me from 1PM-5PM ET tomorrow. I look to receive this training for the price that you mentioned. You may call me by phone or e-mail me at anytime. Please leave a voice mail message and I will return your call asap. Thanks for your generous time. I am sorry of the timeframe of this message when it is sent to you. Have a great day. I look forward to getting training from you and working with you in the near future. James Hulme 609-660-0699 (H) 908-868-2836 (Mobile) jim.hulme at gmail.com On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: > Hey Chris. > Yes, until tomorrow, its $64. Next week, the packages will be changing. > Take care. > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > On Apr 17, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Chris Nusbaum > wrote: > > > To be clear, is the sail price $64? I think I'm reading this correctly, > but I'm making sure. > > > > Chris Nusbaum > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Apr 17, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Dierckens > wrote: > >> > >> If you are new to iOS, windows, the mac operating system, or looking to > learn WordPress, at Blind Access Training, we are currently running a 20% > discount for each training service offered. The cost is $64 per-training > package. for a month of training where the client will receive training in > one of the aforementioned, up-to-6-days a week. > >> If interested, call us between 8 am and 6 pm pacific standard time, or > you may email me directly, and I will set you up with the correct > department and once payment is made, we will contact you and get started. > >> You may call us at 1-877-774-7670, or if you cannot call us between > the hours listed above, leave a message, and a trainer will get back with > you, the following business day, or you may email me directly, and I will > connect you with the appropriate department. > >> A list of our training packages may be found here: > >> http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ > >> You may make your payment here: > >> http://blindaccesstraining.com/payment-center/ > >> > >> > >> > >> Matthew Dierckens > >> Macintosh Trainer > >> Blind Access Training > >> www.blindaccesstraining.com > >> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From ligne14 at verizon.net Fri Apr 18 12:52:15 2014 From: ligne14 at verizon.net (sami osborne) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 08:52:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion Message-ID: <0N4800ID193LIEG0@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> Hi James, Perhaps you are new to this list. I don't want to sound rude 1and I'm not the moderator, but we generally address each other on this list by our first names only, no need to include the last names. Just as in real life you would address your family members or friends by their first names, right? I just wanted to let you know that. (Again, I'm not being rude or negative, I just think it's a little strange to address someone by both their first and last name). Sami. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Hulme wrote: Hey Chris. Yes, until tomorrow, its $64. Next week, the packages will be changing. Take care. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 17, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Chris Nusbaum References: <0N4800ID193LIEG0@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Yea thanks sami but this has something to do with the intention of business proposals or for business purposes so I wanted to make sure I talk to the right person first. Thanks for your insight, Sami. I'll try using just a person's first name instead of both their first and last name. Have a great day. On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 8:52 AM, sami osborne wrote: > Hi James, > > Perhaps you are new to this list. > I don't want to sound rude 1and I'm not the moderator, but we generally > address each other on this list by our first names only, no need to include > the last names. > Just as in real life you would address your family members or friends by > their first names, right? > > I just wanted to let you know that. > (Again, I'm not being rude or negative, I just think it's a little strange > to address someone by both their first and last name). > > Sami. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Hulme To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 04:15:18 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion > > Hello Matt Dierckens. I am interested in your blind training to learn > WordPress and I should feel that WordPress is completely accessible to the > blind after this seminar or training session. I am willing to pay by > credit > card and you must please contact me from 1PM-5PM ET tomorrow. I look to > receive this training for the price that you mentioned. You may call me by > phone or e-mail me at anytime. Please leave a voice mail message and I > will > return your call asap. Thanks for your generous time. I am sorry of the > timeframe of this message when it is sent to you. Have a great day. I > look > forward to getting training from you and working with you in the near > future. > > James Hulme > 609-660-0699 (H) > 908-868-2836 (Mobile) > jim.hulme at gmail.com > > > On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Matthew Dierckens >wrote: > > Hey Chris. > Yes, until tomorrow, its $64. Next week, the packages will be changing. > Take care. > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > On Apr 17, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > To be clear, is the sail price $64? I think I'm reading this correctly, > but I'm making sure. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 17, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: > > If you are new to iOS, windows, the mac operating system, or looking to > learn WordPress, at Blind Access Training, we are currently running a 20% > discount for each training service offered. The cost is $64 per-training > package. for a month of training where the client will receive training in > one of the aforementioned, up-to-6-days a week. > If interested, call us between 8 am and 6 pm pacific standard time, or > you may email me directly, and I will set you up with the correct > department and once payment is made, we will contact you and get started. > You may call us at 1-877-774-7670, or if you cannot call us between > the hours listed above, leave a message, and a trainer will get back with > you, the following business day, or you may email me directly, and I will > connect you with the appropriate department. > A list of our training packages may be found here: > http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ > You may make your payment here: > http://blindaccesstraining.com/payment-center/ > > > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.diercken > s%40me.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40g > mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver > izon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From matt.dierckens at me.com Fri Apr 18 14:06:21 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 10:06:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion In-Reply-To: References: <0N4800ID193LIEG0@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1C6E7800-CC86-4108-A6EF-405CD90B4333@me.com> James, no worries over here sir. Take care. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 18, 2014, at 9:37 AM, James Hulme wrote: > Yea thanks sami but this has something to do with the intention of business > proposals or for business purposes so I wanted to make sure I talk to the > right person first. Thanks for your insight, Sami. I'll try using just a > person's first name instead of both their first and last name. Have a great > day. > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 8:52 AM, sami osborne wrote: > >> Hi James, >> >> Perhaps you are new to this list. >> I don't want to sound rude 1and I'm not the moderator, but we generally >> address each other on this list by our first names only, no need to include >> the last names. >> Just as in real life you would address your family members or friends by >> their first names, right? >> >> I just wanted to let you know that. >> (Again, I'm not being rude or negative, I just think it's a little strange >> to address someone by both their first and last name). >> >> Sami. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: James Hulme > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 04:15:18 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion >> >> Hello Matt Dierckens. I am interested in your blind training to learn >> WordPress and I should feel that WordPress is completely accessible to the >> blind after this seminar or training session. I am willing to pay by >> credit >> card and you must please contact me from 1PM-5PM ET tomorrow. I look to >> receive this training for the price that you mentioned. You may call me by >> phone or e-mail me at anytime. Please leave a voice mail message and I >> will >> return your call asap. Thanks for your generous time. I am sorry of the >> timeframe of this message when it is sent to you. Have a great day. I >> look >> forward to getting training from you and working with you in the near >> future. >> >> James Hulme >> 609-660-0699 (H) >> 908-868-2836 (Mobile) >> jim.hulme at gmail.com >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Matthew Dierckens >> wrote: >> >> Hey Chris. >> Yes, until tomorrow, its $64. Next week, the packages will be changing. >> Take care. >> >> Matthew Dierckens >> Macintosh Trainer >> Blind Access Training >> www.blindaccesstraining.com >> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 17, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Chris Nusbaum > wrote: >> >> To be clear, is the sail price $64? I think I'm reading this correctly, >> but I'm making sure. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 17, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Dierckens > wrote: >> >> If you are new to iOS, windows, the mac operating system, or looking to >> learn WordPress, at Blind Access Training, we are currently running a 20% >> discount for each training service offered. The cost is $64 per-training >> package. for a month of training where the client will receive training in >> one of the aforementioned, up-to-6-days a week. >> If interested, call us between 8 am and 6 pm pacific standard time, or >> you may email me directly, and I will set you up with the correct >> department and once payment is made, we will contact you and get started. >> You may call us at 1-877-774-7670, or if you cannot call us between >> the hours listed above, leave a message, and a trainer will get back with >> you, the following business day, or you may email me directly, and I will >> connect you with the appropriate department. >> A list of our training packages may be found here: >> http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ >> You may make your payment here: >> http://blindaccesstraining.com/payment-center/ >> >> >> >> Matthew Dierckens >> Macintosh Trainer >> Blind Access Training >> www.blindaccesstraining.com >> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >> m%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.diercken >> s%40me.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40g >> mail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver >> izon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From matt.dierckens at me.com Fri Apr 18 14:09:21 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 10:09:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion In-Reply-To: <1C6E7800-CC86-4108-A6EF-405CD90B4333@me.com> References: <0N4800ID193LIEG0@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> <1C6E7800-CC86-4108-A6EF-405CD90B4333@me.com> Message-ID: <24AD39AC-1815-46BB-BD3B-DB3111DA816A@me.com> Also, I have sent the appropriate trainer your inquiry about WordPress. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Apr 18, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: > James, no worries over here sir. > Take care. > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > On Apr 18, 2014, at 9:37 AM, James Hulme wrote: > >> Yea thanks sami but this has something to do with the intention of business >> proposals or for business purposes so I wanted to make sure I talk to the >> right person first. Thanks for your insight, Sami. I'll try using just a >> person's first name instead of both their first and last name. Have a great >> day. >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 8:52 AM, sami osborne wrote: >> >>> Hi James, >>> >>> Perhaps you are new to this list. >>> I don't want to sound rude 1and I'm not the moderator, but we generally >>> address each other on this list by our first names only, no need to include >>> the last names. >>> Just as in real life you would address your family members or friends by >>> their first names, right? >>> >>> I just wanted to let you know that. >>> (Again, I'm not being rude or negative, I just think it's a little strange >>> to address someone by both their first and last name). >>> >>> Sami. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: James Hulme >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Date sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 04:15:18 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion >>> >>> Hello Matt Dierckens. I am interested in your blind training to learn >>> WordPress and I should feel that WordPress is completely accessible to the >>> blind after this seminar or training session. I am willing to pay by >>> credit >>> card and you must please contact me from 1PM-5PM ET tomorrow. I look to >>> receive this training for the price that you mentioned. You may call me by >>> phone or e-mail me at anytime. Please leave a voice mail message and I >>> will >>> return your call asap. Thanks for your generous time. I am sorry of the >>> timeframe of this message when it is sent to you. Have a great day. I >>> look >>> forward to getting training from you and working with you in the near >>> future. >>> >>> James Hulme >>> 609-660-0699 (H) >>> 908-868-2836 (Mobile) >>> jim.hulme at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Matthew Dierckens >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Chris. >>> Yes, until tomorrow, its $64. Next week, the packages will be changing. >>> Take care. >>> >>> Matthew Dierckens >>> Macintosh Trainer >>> Blind Access Training >>> www.blindaccesstraining.com >>> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 17, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Chris Nusbaum >> wrote: >>> >>> To be clear, is the sail price $64? I think I'm reading this correctly, >>> but I'm making sure. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Apr 17, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Dierckens >> wrote: >>> >>> If you are new to iOS, windows, the mac operating system, or looking to >>> learn WordPress, at Blind Access Training, we are currently running a 20% >>> discount for each training service offered. The cost is $64 per-training >>> package. for a month of training where the client will receive training in >>> one of the aforementioned, up-to-6-days a week. >>> If interested, call us between 8 am and 6 pm pacific standard time, or >>> you may email me directly, and I will set you up with the correct >>> department and once payment is made, we will contact you and get started. >>> You may call us at 1-877-774-7670, or if you cannot call us between >>> the hours listed above, leave a message, and a trainer will get back with >>> you, the following business day, or you may email me directly, and I will >>> connect you with the appropriate department. >>> A list of our training packages may be found here: >>> http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ >>> You may make your payment here: >>> http://blindaccesstraining.com/payment-center/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Matthew Dierckens >>> Macintosh Trainer >>> Blind Access Training >>> www.blindaccesstraining.com >>> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau >>> m%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.diercken >>> s%40me.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40g >>> mail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver >>> izon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From gmanmesa at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 14:26:20 2014 From: gmanmesa at gmail.com (James Mooney) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 07:26:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Roommates for convention Message-ID: Hi I am looking for roommates for convention. If interrested contact me via email at gmanmesa at gmail.com Sent from my iPhone From jim.hulme at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 16:02:17 2014 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:02:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training Promotion In-Reply-To: <24AD39AC-1815-46BB-BD3B-DB3111DA816A@me.com> References: <0N4800ID193LIEG0@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> <1C6E7800-CC86-4108-A6EF-405CD90B4333@me.com> <24AD39AC-1815-46BB-BD3B-DB3111DA816A@me.com> Message-ID: Thanks very much. I look forward to getting the proper training in the future. Thanks again for all that you do. I just finished talking to Kimsan and payment was made successfully. Thanks for all of the help that you do and also the nice coolblindtech.com podcast that explains the services you provide and who blind access training is? Everyone did a very good job with that podcast. Thanks for sharing. ttys. James Hulme jim.hulme at gmail.com On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: > Also, I have sent the appropriate trainer your inquiry about WordPress. > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > On Apr 18, 2014, at 10:06 AM, Matthew Dierckens > wrote: > > > James, no worries over here sir. > > Take care. > > > > Matthew Dierckens > > Macintosh Trainer > > Blind Access Training > > www.blindaccesstraining.com > > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 18, 2014, at 9:37 AM, James Hulme wrote: > > > >> Yea thanks sami but this has something to do with the intention of > business > >> proposals or for business purposes so I wanted to make sure I talk to > the > >> right person first. Thanks for your insight, Sami. I'll try using just a > >> person's first name instead of both their first and last name. Have a > great > >> day. > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 8:52 AM, sami osborne > wrote: > >> > >>> Hi James, > >>> > >>> Perhaps you are new to this list. > >>> I don't want to sound rude 1and I'm not the moderator, but we generally > >>> address each other on this list by our first names only, no need to > include > >>> the last names. > >>> Just as in real life you would address your family members or friends > by > >>> their first names, right? > >>> > >>> I just wanted to let you know that. > >>> (Again, I'm not being rude or negative, I just think it's a little > strange > >>> to address someone by both their first and last name). > >>> > >>> Sami. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: James Hulme >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> Date sent: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 04:15:18 -0400 > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Time Running Out for Blind Access Training > Promotion > >>> > >>> Hello Matt Dierckens. I am interested in your blind training to learn > >>> WordPress and I should feel that WordPress is completely accessible to > the > >>> blind after this seminar or training session. I am willing to pay by > >>> credit > >>> card and you must please contact me from 1PM-5PM ET tomorrow. I look > to > >>> receive this training for the price that you mentioned. You may call > me by > >>> phone or e-mail me at anytime. Please leave a voice mail message and I > >>> will > >>> return your call asap. Thanks for your generous time. I am sorry of > the > >>> timeframe of this message when it is sent to you. Have a great day. I > >>> look > >>> forward to getting training from you and working with you in the near > >>> future. > >>> > >>> James Hulme > >>> 609-660-0699 (H) > >>> 908-868-2836 (Mobile) > >>> jim.hulme at gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Matthew Dierckens < > matt.dierckens at me.com > >>>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hey Chris. > >>> Yes, until tomorrow, its $64. Next week, the packages will be > changing. > >>> Take care. > >>> > >>> Matthew Dierckens > >>> Macintosh Trainer > >>> Blind Access Training > >>> www.blindaccesstraining.com > >>> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Apr 17, 2014, at 4:15 PM, Chris Nusbaum >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> To be clear, is the sail price $64? I think I'm reading this correctly, > >>> but I'm making sure. > >>> > >>> Chris Nusbaum > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> On Apr 17, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Matthew Dierckens >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> If you are new to iOS, windows, the mac operating system, or looking to > >>> learn WordPress, at Blind Access Training, we are currently running a > 20% > >>> discount for each training service offered. The cost is $64 > per-training > >>> package. for a month of training where the client will receive > training in > >>> one of the aforementioned, up-to-6-days a week. > >>> If interested, call us between 8 am and 6 pm pacific standard time, or > >>> you may email me directly, and I will set you up with the correct > >>> department and once payment is made, we will contact you and get > started. > >>> You may call us at 1-877-774-7670, or if you cannot call us between > >>> the hours listed above, leave a message, and a trainer will get back > with > >>> you, the following business day, or you may email me directly, and I > will > >>> connect you with the appropriate department. > >>> A list of our training packages may be found here: > >>> http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-subscriptions/ > >>> You may make your payment here: > >>> http://blindaccesstraining.com/payment-center/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Matthew Dierckens > >>> Macintosh Trainer > >>> Blind Access Training > >>> www.blindaccesstraining.com > >>> 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > >>> m%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.diercken > >>> s%40me.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40g > >>> mail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver > >>> izon.net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Apr 18 21:18:49 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 17:18:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler MagazineForTheBlind In-Reply-To: <534eb86a.671fec0a.5e1a.ffff8a60@mx.google.com> References: <534eb86a.671fec0a.5e1a.ffff8a60@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <009a01cf5b4b$cb1a0a70$614e1f50$@gmail.com> Roanna, The response is likely a form email sent to anyone who writes to them. I would wait until we hear something before contacting them again. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Bacchus Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Rewh An Update On The Matilda Ziegler MagazineForTheBlind Hi Lillie I've tried sending him emails several times and I get the same response. The person who writes me back says that they will keep readers informed about what is going on. In their last email they told me that we'd here something at the end of March. I emailed them last week and still have not received a response. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sat Apr 19 02:55:43 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 22:55:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How to be part of NFB News Line and News Line app, and how to change a folder's name in an iPhone In-Reply-To: References: <4227E76254D243D5BDA95C2FCA010DF6@Helga> Message-ID: Hi. Can you create folders in the inbox for the iPhone? Thanks Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 16, 2014, at 7:48 PM, Andy wrote: > > Ah! I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Sory, I'm not sure how to do that. > >> On 4/16/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: >> Hi Andy, this is Helga! I'm actually in my dad's iPhone, and I went to his >> mail app where he has his hotmail and Gmail folders for his invoxes, >> However, I selected the folder Exchange where his college email messages are >> >> located, but whenever I 4 finger tap on the top of the screen inside the >> folder it doesn't telll me anything about a new folder. I just wanted to ask >> >> you, is there any other way to change a folder's name in an iPhone rather >> than this way only? Just wondering! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and >> God bless!! :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andy >> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 6:48 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How to be part of NFB News Line and News Line app, and >> >> how to change a folder's name in an iPhone >> >> You need to apply for Newsline. Go to this site for everything: >> https://nfb.org/audio-newspaper-service >> >> The app is in the App Store of an iOS device. >> >> To change a folder's name on the iPhone: >> 1. Open the folder; >> 2. 4-finger tap on the top of the screen. You should hear something >> like, ", heading." >> 3. Double tap and hold. >> 4. You should then be able to double tap on the folder name and edit the >> name. >> Cheers. >> >> On 4/16/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com >> wrote: >>> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, how can >>> >>> I >>> be part of the NFB News Line, and where do I find the News Line app? Also, >>> >>> I >>> just wanted to ask you, do you know how can I change a folder's name in >>> my >>> iPhone? Just wondering! For instance, I want to help my dad change a >>> folder's name in his iPhone. The name of his folder is Exchange, but I >>> wanted to change it to something else! How do I do that? He actually put >>> this folder inside the mail app that is in his iPhone. I will really >>> appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions >>> regarding >>> this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sat Apr 19 03:28:39 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 23:28:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI In-Reply-To: References: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> <700672A7550846DD8CAF11DB8AC03604@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <000001cf5b7f$74ed32b0$5ec79810$@net> Hi Sandra and Everyone, I apologize for not replying to this thread earlier. I had forgotten about it and then ironically, the day you replied there were additional problems, and I was angry, and did not want to write anything I may regret later. I would also like to thank everyone who has replied to this thread. For now the situation with this student has seemed to have cooled down. I explained how I could not do everything for this student, and how not every blind person traveled or did anything the same way. He listened, and although he wasn't happy, I have to give him credit for listening. I am just confused on why I had to explain and why he was so shocked about all blind people wanting the same things. I do not intend to fight against the Braille numbers, but just do not want my name attached. I would rather spend my time and energy if I have to fight for something on getting me my textbooks and making sure my classes are accessible. Ryan, you have a good point about the lying thing that I had not thought about. Although I'm trying to think back and don't recall any major lying incidents that stand out to me, it is totally possible that something could have happened or he could have heard something from someone else or seen something in a report, since I was quite a handful in elementary school. I am trying to be open minded here without making excuses for him and protecting myself at the same time. My dad makes a point when he says that I am most likely an outliar for my TVI, since most of his students probably have other challenges and disabilities related to blindness. Right now I am at a place where I am trying to be nice, while not really trusting him with anything. Thank you again for all of your responses. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Gayer Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 7:19 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI Hello Lillie, I notice you haven't replied to the thread you started. I hope this means the situation has resolved for the better. I would echo everyone's supportive comments and add that the teachers have a duty of care to you as well as this new student. They should not be making you feel as though you are in any way responsible for this child's welfare. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 3/27/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Lilly, > > What a tough situation. Your TVI does not seem too respectful. > I agree with Ryan. On the questions he directs to your para, just step > in and answer them. Also, tell him you are a responsible student who > can take AP classes. Say you can do your work yourself and if you > need his help, you will ask for it. My TVIs always put me in control, > especially in high school. I had to advocate; I had to get my work > done and if I missed something written on the board, my TVI expected > me to ask my teachers for that info orally. > > Also, get your parents backing, and if it continues, they should have > words with him. I would not put up with this either, and I can tell > its taking a psychological tole on you. > > For the mobility problems of the other blind student, I echo others > suggestions; you can assist them in showing them around a few times. > Besides this, it's the mobility instructor's job. > You could make a list of ten things to assist someone in navigation. > You can get my ideas if needed. But, I think its unreasonable to > solicit your input in changing the school. This student needs the > skills to navigate, not the building to change for him. If the TVI > thinks the school should change for him, that is a red flag. My TVIs > always believed I had to adapt and learn skills, not let the world adapt for me. > I'd reiterate your position that you would not see that anything > changed, but you do hope with some teaching and repetition this student can navigate. > I think braille numbers can help, especially when learning new areas; > once you know a place, you don't need to confirm you're there with the numbers. > But I think its helpful because you really confirm you are there; > sighted people see the signs, and its nice to have them accessible. > So, coming from someone with some spatial challenges, I would not > fight against them. > > The student probably would benefit from tactile maps and if they have > cognitive challenges, they could benefit from tactile cues to tell > them what is next. Basically, I've heard of this technique for those > with memory or verbal challenges; like when someone cannot understand words. > You have objects to represent activities and locations. You as the > teacher hand the student the object and then go to that location. It > continues like this over lessons in a specific pattern. The student > then associates the object with the location. For instance, toy food > can represent the cafeteria, a small ball can represent gym, and a > small instrument like a chime could represent music class. Not sure > how it would work for general classes because they all seem similar. > > If the mobility instructor is good and has experience with a range of > mental abilities, he/she should know this. > > I hope this gets resolved asap. Sorry to hear this since this is > totally opposite of how a TVI should act. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillie Pennington > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 10:10 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI > > Hello Everyone > > I apologize for my posts on this list being generally being negative > as of late and my questions having a somewhat no-brainer type of answer. > > I have a new TVI this year. Based on what I have heard, my parents and > I are pretty sure that I am the most advanced student on his caseload > in terms of both Braille and/or blindness skills, as well as pretty > high up there intellectually. > > In terms of doing my schoolwork and other school-related things, , I > would classify myself as pretty responsible. I do not feel that I have > done anything major that would result in a lack of mistrust. However, > the way that my TVI sometimes acts towards me makes me feel otherwise. > The way he questions some of my actions or what I say as if I cannot > be trusted or as if I am lying bothers me. For example, he was wanting > to talk about lunch things and who I sat with. He then asked my parra > when she came back in the room if I did do these things (referring to > my lunch routine.) Another example in my mind that sticks out of being > mistrustful is when I was showing my parra the final draft of a > research paper because we had been discussing Common Core State > Standards (the topic of the paper) earlier. He wanted to see the > paper, so I gave him the printed copy. He was quite skeptical about > whether the paper was allowed to take an argumentative stance. I told > him that it was, and he asked my parra (who is not in that class with me) if it was. > > There was an upserge in these problems today which I had mainly put in > the back of my mind. He and my mobility instructor brought the student > that I am supposed to be mentoring next year that I have mentioned in a previous post. > They were mainly looking at the building, which I will admit is > weirdly layed out. > > I had previously provided both a written and oral description of the > building to this student, and my mobility teacher has obviously seen > it working with me. > > I will go off on another side tangent for a moment. After my > description and noting that there were no Braille numbers on the > doors, my TVI and the student were very upset. My TVI sent some emails > and there is a meeting scheduled at some point to discuss getting > Braille numbers installed. I asked if this is really necessary because > my sister and I never had that much trouble navigating the building. > My TVI asked if I thought about anyone but myself. This comment > bothered me at the time but I was worrying about other things at the time so did not give it much thought. > > Today after the student left, my TVI told me that I should help this > student learn the campus. He told me to create a top 10 list; things > that would help the student get around. These things had to be totally > blind friendly and for someone who could not process things as quickly > as I could. There are two problems with this. I do not necessarily > know how to see through these student eyes (or in this case, not see.) > I have a bit of periferil vision that I use along with alternative > techniques to navigate the building. Along with this list, I was > expected to come up with things that the administration could do to > change the school. I had trouble coming up with both of these lists, > because I am pretty happy with the school, and everything basically > clicked for me. I did try for about 10 minutes to come up with things and I did come up with something for counting the doors. > > When I tried to come up with these things, and when I could not and I > explained, my TVI did not believe me. He said that it certainly took > more time for me to learn the building. I also explained about the > vision thing and he was quite skeptical. > > I am done with being called a lier. I am done with everything I do > being questioned. I am done trying to do a job that I feel is the > mobility instructors job (with this list.) I felt like I was thrust > into this position. I do not want to be generalized in this crusade > about Braille numbers about all students who are blind needing them. > > > > I want to confront him about this tomorrow. I felt like in a way he > was bullying me today. I want to not dread my study hall every day for > what he may say. However, I know that I have to pick and choose my > battles. I am not sure if this is worth confronting him about. I am > going to for sure tell him that I cannot do anymore for this student > besides just helping a blind person mentally adjust psychologically to > high school. I have an AP test in > 6 weeks and I need to focus on preparing for that. > > I have lost sleep over this student. I have no real attachment to this > person but I do have a fear that if I am not the one actively doing > things that this student will fall into the wayside. I am also going > to tell him that I do not want to be included in the Braille number > discussions and that I am perfectly happy with the way things are, and > that I do not want any of these arguments being made for "all blind > students" because that is not true. > > However, I do not know if I have the right to do this. My parents > think I should help because otherwise no one else will. I feel like I > am being manipulated, but I still in a way feel guilty. I am not going > to mention the skepticism and how it makes me feel, but I will bring > up my unhappiness with the arrangements for this student. > > I will also speak to my mobility instructor on my next lesson. My TVI > is the only one I am hearing these things from. I am not going to bad > mouth my TVI, but I will say that I have been asked to spend time > doing things and making lists that I do not feel that I have the > authority or the experience to make. > > > > Is there some other way to do this? I am going to be as respectful as > I can, but for me this has to end. Am I doing the right thing? I do > not know what else to do in terms of other options. I apologize for the long post. > > Thank You, > > Lillie > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gma > il.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html Voiceover Artist www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sat Apr 19 03:33:07 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 23:33:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] getting connected with colleges Message-ID: <000101cf5b80$14c637f0$3e52a7d0$@net> Hi Everyone, I am exploring different colleges and universities that offer fields of study that I am interested in, and while my mind is still partially open I have about 6 colleges on my list. I know one good step is to network with other students, which I am atempting to do. I am a sophomore now, and am wondering what the next step should be. I am pondering doing some campus visits this summer. I am wondering what I should do now. I do not want to do stuff super early but I want to be prepared and proactive. Thanks From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sat Apr 19 03:38:46 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 23:38:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics Message-ID: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> Hi Everyone I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the teacher of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking about before I have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, answering these questions would be very helpful. I am not sure how college stats classes work, but I'd think they would be similar. 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any point if I have the calculator and excel available to me? 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that are inaccessible? Thanks From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 04:10:27 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 22:10:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, I don't know exact answers to most of your questions, but just wanted to let you know that I've taken five statistics courses (including graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While sighted students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and the stats functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are not, you can definitely participate without using a graphing calculator. In fact, I think graphing is a very minor part of the course curriculum. That said, I don't know what the AP test looks like, and you might have to use a graphing calculator on the test. Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so you may want to find out what the regular test requires and then contact the college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the normal requirements are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the best person to ask based on your other posts). If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed descriptions of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the graph is important for understanding the underlying math and interpreting results. I just did it to appease the teacher's requirements on exams and such. You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a web-based calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ Your teacher may or may not know about GraphPad, but you might offer to use that instead of any inaccessible software that's required. Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether you're expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations by calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, using a standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic math. I used JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note calculator for computations, and Excel will also work for that. Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm happy to consult when you have more specific questions. Best, Arielle On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi Everyone > > > > I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the teacher > of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking about before I > have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, answering these questions > would be very helpful. I am not sure how college stats classes work, but > I'd > think they would be similar. > > > > 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and > used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? > > > > 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? > > > > 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note > calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? > > > > 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? > > > > 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any point > if I have the calculator and excel available to me? > > > > 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that > are inaccessible? > > > > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Sat Apr 19 08:12:55 2014 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2014 04:12:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] getting connected with colleges In-Reply-To: <000101cf5b80$14c637f0$3e52a7d0$@net> References: <000101cf5b80$14c637f0$3e52a7d0$@net> Message-ID: Hi Lilly, Do you know what fields of study you are interested in? It might be to early to know just what your desired major will be but, perhaps make a list of everything you want in a college. After go on to the college board site and search. Of course there are several of us here in college working toward all kinds of degrees. Om sure if you were to ask about a field of study or a college someone may be there have been there, or knows someone who has. College tours are not a bad idea however, I would save that until I've narrowed my list down to the top three. Remember you are just a sophomore. I'm not saying you shouldn't care because you very we'll should but, I would wait until the summer of your junior year to start taking tours. Does your school have a college fair? Maybe you can participate Pick would check with my school councilor about FAFSA and application process too. It's never to early to start asking questions. Maybe they can track down some scholarships for you as we'll. Lilly there is so much to think about you have my head spinning and I will me starting my senior year in college. If you have any questions or need any help with anything as you make your transition I'm happy to share ant knowledge I have. Good luck with the last two months of school. Bridget Sent from my iPad > On Apr 18, 26 Heisei, at 11:33 PM, "Lillie Pennington" wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I am exploring different colleges and universities that offer fields of > study that I am interested in, and while my mind is still partially open I > have about 6 colleges on my list. I know one good step is to network with > other students, which I am atempting to do. I am a sophomore now, and am > wondering what the next step should be. I am pondering doing some campus > visits this summer. > > I am wondering what I should do now. I do not want to do stuff super early > but I want to be prepared and proactive. > > > > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com From cantdousemyfire at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 13:31:23 2014 From: cantdousemyfire at gmail.com (Nefertiti Matos Olivares) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 09:31:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Moodle Message-ID: Happy Sunday, gang! Anybody have experience using Moodle with JAWS and/or NVDA? Good, bad, things to be mindful of as a first time user? Thanks. -- Nefertiti From hope.paulos at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 16:12:18 2014 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:12:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Moodle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <752C217B-EC7F-4261-802F-8FE48AF806AA@gmail.com> I have used Moodle from an instructor's perspective. It is very accessible. Hope Paulos > On Apr 20, 2014, at 9:31 AM, Nefertiti Matos Olivares wrote: > > Happy Sunday, gang! > > Anybody have experience using Moodle with JAWS and/or NVDA? Good, bad, > things to be mindful of as a first time user? > > Thanks. > > > -- > Nefertiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From bre.brown24 at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 16:22:59 2014 From: bre.brown24 at gmail.com (Bre Brown) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 11:22:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Notes April 2014 Message-ID: NABS Notes April 2014 In this edition of NABS monthly bulletin: 1. NABS Update 2. NABS On Social Media 3. State Announcements NABS Update As the semester is finishing, we are preparing for national convention. The NABS annual meeting will take place on July 2nd. Registration begins at 6:15 pm, and the meeting begins promptly at 7:00pm. If you have any ideas of topics or presentations you would like to see, let Sean Whalen know at nabs.president at gmail.com. We will have more details on everything NABS will be doing and how you can get involved at national convention very soon. We are looking forward to seeing everyone there. NABS On Social Media Do you want to stay connected with us on our social media outlets? Be sure to follow us on twitter and friend us on facebook. www.twitter.com/nabslink www.facebook.com/nabslink You can also check out our website at www.nabslink.org State Announcements Note: All announcements are printed below as they were received from their senders. No effort to edit for content, grammar or clarity has been made on the part of NABS. Colorado This past weekend (April 10-13) Colorado hosted the 2nd annual South Western Student Seminar at our Colorado Center for the Blind. Thirty students were in attendance from eight states. The seminar was an extreme success and involved numerous presentations on various STEM related topics, tours of the Center, an inside look in to a day in the life of a center student, and panels featuring the topics of working with Voc Rehab, and building a thriving student division. Dr. and Mrs. Maurer were also in attendance and provided their insights in to what it takes to become an outstanding student leader. While the seminar was an exciting time for learning, it culminated at a bowling alley where competition was fierce. We sincerely thank all those in attendance and those who helped to make it a success and would love for another student division to follow in our foot-steps and make the seminar even better next year North Carolina >From July 27th to August 2nd, 2014, the North Carolina Association of Blind Students and Governor Morehead School Alumni Association will host its 6th annual summer transition camp for visually impaired youth and young adults. They will came to Raleigh, NC to participate in the Envisioning Youth Empowerment Retreat. The goal of the EYE retreat is to teach visually impaired youth the academic and social skills they will need to make successful transitions from High School to College, by offering 5 days of intensive training. "Group Leaders" for the retreat are visually impaired college students or recent graduates. The EYE Retreat programming is based on validated research about which skills and experiences facilitate a successful transition. The week includes "mock" college classes, information on college services, visits to local employers, technology training, community involvement, and the opportunity to experience accessible sports. Tenth Grader Lauren Siegel from Raleigh says, "In addition to the university and state agency resources shared during the scheduled activities, we introduced each other to things like energy drinks, chicken wings, premier blindness rehabilitation centers, and consumer advocacy organizations…The EYE retreat has helped me become more comfortable about modifications, using assistive technology, and advocating for myself, and has made me more comfortable about my disability in general." For more information, contact Alan Chase, EYE Retreat Coordinator at aachase1 at gmail.com or visit www.eyeretreat.org or www.twitter.com/eyeretreat. Online application at: www.goo.gl/PjhDs Oklahoma At the 2014, OABS (Oklahoma Association of Blind Students) business meeting held at the NFB of Oklahoma state convention in April. We held elections for all board positions. The new OABS board is as fallowed: Cammie Loehr, President Brooke Anderson, Vice President Eric Holland, Secretary Callie Chappell, Treasurer At the conclusion of board election we voted to have monthly conference calls. We also scheduled are first conference call in order to make amendments to our constitution. We proceed to use the rest of are meeting to strategies different ways we could grow the division throughout the coming year. I am excited to report that OABS is firmly here, we have a vision for Oklahoma and am ready to start making our vision a reality. Texas The Texas Association of Blind Students and the Texas Parents of Blind Children hosted the fourth annual NFBT Youth Conference the weekend of April 4 through April 6, 2014 in Houston Texas! TABS was proud to welcome members of the NFB of Georgia and the GEMS Mentoring Program this year, in addition, Pam and Roland Allen and Eric and Krystal Guillory joined us representing the national office and the Louisiana Center for the blind respectively. Attendance records were shattered for the second year in a row, with over 100 students, parents, and related professionals in attendance. The weekend was fun, informational, interactive, and inspiring. Student, parent, and community leaders shared with us their personal stories, advice for secondary and post-secondary success, and who challenged us to strive to truly change what it means to be blind. TABS was also proud to host a Bone Marrow Drive in support of our friend and fellow TABS Board Member, Harley Fetterman, who currently is in need of a donor. All in all the weekend was a memorable one; the Texas student division is poised to do it bigger and better in 2015, and we invite students across the country to come experience good southern hospitality next year! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS Notes April 2014.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 19370 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carlymih at comcast.net Sun Apr 20 18:32:52 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 11:32:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140420112752.0216a398@comcast.net> Good morning, The way I always did it was by dictating to a sighted person graphic positioning of the points (2 units left on the X-axis, 1 unit up on the Y-axis then, hopefully, the sighted person could describe any results of the graphs. graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While >sighted students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and >the stats functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are >not, you can definitely participate without using a graphing >calculator. In fact, I think graphing is a very minor part of the >course curriculum. That said, I don't know what the AP test looks >like, and you might have to use a graphing calculator on the test. >Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so >you may want to find out what the regular test requires and then >contact the college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the >normal requirements are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the >best person to ask based on your other posts). > >If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed >descriptions of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the >graph is important for understanding the underlying math and >interpreting results. I just did it to appease the teacher's >requirements on exams and such. >You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a >web-based calculator at >www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ >Your teacher may or may not know about GraphPad, but you might offer >to use that instead of any inaccessible software that's required. >Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether >you're expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations >by calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, >using a standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic >math. I used JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note >calculator for computations, and Excel will also work for that. > >Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm >happy to consult when you have more specific questions. > >Best, >Arielle > >On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > > Hi Everyone > > > > > > > > I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the teacher > > of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking about before I > > have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, answering these questions > > would be very helpful. I am not sure how college stats classes work, but > > I'd > > think they would be similar. > > > > > > > > 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and > > used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? > > > > > > > > 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? > > > > > > > > 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note > > calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? > > > > > > > > 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? > > > > > > > > 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any point > > if I have the calculator and excel available to me? > > > > > > > > 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that > > are inaccessible? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 18:34:23 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:34:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wishing you a Happy Easter! Message-ID: <7F707AEE-1A5B-46AA-9B26-620A6684B751@gmail.com> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to wish you a Happy Easter today! Hope you guys are haveing a great time today! with your families and friends! God bless you all today! Hope to hear from you soon! :) Sent from my iPhone From carlymih at comcast.net Sun Apr 20 18:41:10 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 11:41:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140420113719.02192c58@comcast.net> Good morning, "Lillie, My, my, so much energy! Yes, you have graphin this and accessable tech gagit that, but you don't seem, to have good ol' fashion relaxation! If you chase your tail compensating, when will yu ever pour your heart into ap stats?At 08:38 PM 4/18/2014, Lillie Pennington wrote: >Hi Everyone > > > >I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the teacher >of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking about before I >have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, answering these questions >would be very helpful. I am not sure how college stats classes work, but I'd >think they would be similar. > > > >1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and >used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? > > > >2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? > > > >3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note >calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? > > > >4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? > > > >5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any point >if I have the calculator and excel available to me? > > > >6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that >are inaccessible? > > > >Thanks > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 19:29:19 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Bacchus) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:29:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wishing you a Happy Easter! Message-ID: <53542029.45a4ec0a.43fe.0982@mx.google.com> Happy Easter to you too Helga. Hope you have a great day. From mikgephart at icloud.com Sun Apr 20 20:39:27 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:39:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wishing you a Happy Easter! In-Reply-To: <7F707AEE-1A5B-46AA-9B26-620A6684B751@gmail.com> References: <7F707AEE-1A5B-46AA-9B26-620A6684B751@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7B171349-90C4-47C0-A42D-C0C2882FEB14@icloud.com> Same to you. I am having a great day. Mikayla Sent from my iPad > On Apr 20, 2014, at 2:34 PM, Helga Schreiber wrote: > > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to wish you a Happy Easter today! Hope you guys are haveing a great time today! with your families and friends! God bless you all today! Hope to hear from you soon! :) > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 22:01:36 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 18:01:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Wishing you a Happy Easter! In-Reply-To: <7F707AEE-1A5B-46AA-9B26-620A6684B751@gmail.com> References: <7F707AEE-1A5B-46AA-9B26-620A6684B751@gmail.com> Message-ID: Happy Easter to one and all! It's a great day here with family and we just enjoyed a delicious dinner. Hope all who are celebrating are having a wonderful time. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 20, 2014, at 2:34 PM, Helga Schreiber wrote: > > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to wish you a Happy Easter today! Hope you guys are haveing a great time today! with your families and friends! God bless you all today! Hope to hear from you soon! :) > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From zdreicer at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 23:44:50 2014 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 17:44:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfb-science] totally Blind meteorologists and totally Blind climatologists References: <1772306433.11766712.1398105666894.JavaMail.root@ptd.net> Message-ID: <702341B8-3067-41FC-8188-1765A8C4EE6C@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver Begin forwarded message: > From: "Mr. Alexander Scott Kaiser" > Date: April 21, 2014 at 12:41:06 MDT > To: nfb-science at nfbnet.org > Cc: weatherking999 at gmail.com, Weatherwiz999 at yahoo.com, AScottKaiser90 at inbox.com > Subject: [Nfb-science] totally Blind meteorologists and totally Blind climatologists > Reply-To: NFB Science and Engineering Division List > > Attention List: > Hi my name is Mr. Alexander Scott Kaiser and I am a totally blind college sophomore and I am interested in attending Penn State University at the university Park campus to become a physical climatologist. Are there any totally Blind climatologists in the field? If so, Can you please put me in contact with one totally Blind climatologist who works for the national climatic data information center? My email address is alexanderkaiser at ptd.net. My cellphone number is 1.484.353.2526. My homephone number is 1.610.829.0620. My Skype number is 1.862.345.6664. My Skype ID is Alexander.Scott.Kaiser10301990. Please reply with thuis information as immediately as possible. > From, > Mr. Alexander Scott Kaiser > > _______________________________________________ > Nfb-science mailing list > Nfb-science at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-science_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nfb-science: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-science_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 22:25:37 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 18:25:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140420113719.02192c58@comcast.net> References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140420113719.02192c58@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi, When I took stats I did not use a graphing calculator. My professor was able to give me formulas to use either in Excel or manually to get the same results. For me, graphing was a huge part of the curriculum, but it was the part of stats I did really well in. For me, it was pretty easy to picture the graph in my head and to calculate the points, and I would just write it out in prose and my professor would plot the points as he was grading my work. A big thing for me was making sure I had all the materials for graphs in tactile format, and that was a huge struggle for me personally. However, as long as that is taken care of I think you'll be fine. I'd recommend having something like a sensational blackboard or another type of tactile drawing kit on hand, so the professor can quickly draw the graph for you when one isn't pre-made or easily described in words while he's/she's trying to teach. My blackboard helped me in the classroom on more than a few occasions. On 4/20/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good morning, "Lillie, > > My, my, so much energy! Yes, you have graphin this and accessable > tech gagit that, but you don't seem, to have good ol' fashion > relaxation! If you chase your tail compensating, when will yu ever > pour your heart into ap stats?At 08:38 PM 4/18/2014, Lillie Pennington > wrote: >>Hi Everyone >> >> >> >>I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the >> teacher >>of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking about before >> I >>have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, answering these questions >>would be very helpful. I am not sure how college stats classes work, but >> I'd >>think they would be similar. >> >> >> >>1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and >>used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? >> >> >> >>2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? >> >> >> >>3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note >>calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? >> >> >> >>4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? >> >> >> >>5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any >> point >>if I have the calculator and excel available to me? >> >> >> >>6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that >>are inaccessible? >> >> >> >>Thanks >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From member at linkedin.com Mon Apr 21 22:03:55 2014 From: member at linkedin.com (Kartik Sawhney via LinkedIn) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 22:03:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Eric, please add me to your LinkedIn network Message-ID: <1385918575.24157085.1398117835516.JavaMail.app@ela4-app1516.prod> LinkedIn ------------ Kartik Sawhney requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: ------------------------------------------ Eric, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Kartik Accept invitation from Kartik Sawhney http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-huab9e5n-2s/2LScsQM0ZAGW3fi7AMe09Fk_pJsa/blk/I763517732_11/0UcDpKqiRzolZKqiRybmRSrCBvrmRLoORIrmkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYNclYOcPsTcjkPdzt9bQhmcSt8jA5WbPoTcPsTdz0QdzsNcz4PcjgSe3kLrCBxbOYWrSlI/eml-comm_invm-b-in_ac-inv28/?hs=false&tok=0bqV9jvtxbzSc1 View profile of Kartik Sawhney http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-huab9e5n-2s/rso/53595146/n61u/name/85813888_I763517732_11/?hs=false&tok=3_2J_mgkhbzSc1 ------------------------------------------ You are receiving Invitation emails. This email was intended for Eric Gaudes. Learn why this is included: http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-huab9e5n-2s/plh/http%3A%2F%2Fhelp%2Elinkedin%2Ecom%2Fapp%2Fanswers%2Fdetail%2Fa_id%2F4788/-GXI/?hs=false&tok=3dUFjG9U9bzSc1 (c) 2012, LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. From zmason.northwindsfarm at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 14:15:59 2014 From: zmason.northwindsfarm at gmail.com (Zach Mason) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:15:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions on Freedom of Experiment Design and Thesis Topic Selection, and Dealing with the Heat Message-ID: <003901cf5fc7$b964df00$2c2e9d00$@gmail.com> These are questions primarily for current or recently graduated PhD's and MS's in the biological sciences, but others are welcome to express their views and experiences. I plan to apply to graduate programs for fall 2015. I'd like to work in lactation biology. It seems as though, from talking to masters and PhD students, there are varying degrees to how one's program is dictated by the faculty mentor. In the summer of 2013 I was selected to a research fellowship at Purdue University. I worked with two faculty, their lab technician, and a graduate student on a swine metabolism trial. The graduate student in this instance, though he knew a lot about the overall project, was more or less chosen to work on the project, not because it was his passion, but more because the team had funding for him. Is this a typical scenario in today's environment of tight research budgets? Secondly, the number of labs doing exactly the kind of research I'm interested in are few and far between. Competition is pretty intense to get into them. Am I better off to do a masters in a related field, perhaps a physiology, genetics or biochemistry lab where my skills could be transferred and then apply to the lactation biology labs for my PhD? I'd really appreciate it if someone could share their experience, particularly someone with a background in cellular biology, genetics or biochemistry. Feel free to contact me off list if that's better for you. Kind regards, Zac From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Apr 24 18:35:04 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:35:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Message-ID: Hi all, I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the lighthouse. I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb centers have you take everything. Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an adult from our state agency. My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. She taught me about our metro system too. I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try anything. She never says anything positive to move forward. I don’t like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to measure well and cook meat. I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. She says things like “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those fs webinars are helpful. When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or something. I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve used a lot of skills I learned. It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. Ashley From nightfury19 at verizon.net Thu Apr 24 19:33:20 2014 From: nightfury19 at verizon.net (Melissa Hambleton) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:33:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000401cf5ff4$0e286120$2a792360$@verizon.net> First thing to remember is that you can't change how your mother thinks or feels, she has to change those things herself if some day she is willing to do so. Now, either your mother may be over protective and says such things to discourage you from doing things more independently so that you will always be around or, she still lacks knowledge of what low vision and blind people can do for themselves. It doesn't matter if you got involved with braille or O&M and things like that, you got those resources and help from other people and not your mother directly so, she doesn't have that experience firsthand of what is possible for those who cannot see. Only you know how she will act/react to what you do and the things you try and discuss with her and you have some choices to make. You can come out and tell your mother what your plans are and try and express that you know that both of you don't agree on what you will do or you can let your mother hold you back and you will not progress. Try and come across to your mother in a positive way and mention positive things you will be able to do and accomplish and what your goals are. Try and stay away from blaming your mother of how she doesn't support you and how she has handled things in the past, this will only make her more defensive and more likely she will say negative things that will only make things worse between the both of you. The bad side is that you may have to live with hearing such things from your mother and you just need to tell yourself that you "can" do this or that and you will move forward in life and progress. Perhaps in time your mother will come around when she sees you being more independent or maybe she will not but, who is the one who needs to benefit right now with learning more independence and other skills? You do and not your mother. You know what you want to learn so that is a goal...so go out and manifest what you want by learning more skills and becoming more independent. Your mother is the one who has to learn other skills on her own, by owning up to her being non-supportive over overly protective in a very negative way--being protective is fine but, everything has a negative side too it when a person lets it go to an extreme level. Your mother will need to learn to be support and you not teach her that part...that will be her learning process if she chooses to do so. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Hi all, I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the lighthouse. I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb centers have you take everything. Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an adult from our state agency. My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. She taught me about our metro system too. I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try anything. She never says anything positive to move forward. I don’t like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to measure well and cook meat. I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. She says things like “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those fs webinars are helpful. When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or something. I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve used a lot of skills I learned. It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nightfury19%40verizon.net From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Thu Apr 24 20:02:53 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:02:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Ashley, I am not quite sure why you are so opposed to attending an NFB training center. For someone who may have an unstable eye condition such as RP, I believe the sleep shade training is a valuable tool for gaining confidence in skills of blindness. I have actually been wanting to attendan NFB training center myself, but dealing with other health issues has prevented me from doing so. To be completely honest with you, I find most of your posts to be rather negative. It seems to me like you spend a lot of time complaining about things the rest of us deal with in the real world on a daily basis. Not all of us are born into your upper middle class society where your family can afford to pay for your college and the technology you need to succeed. There are many of us who live on a lot less, and do not repeatedly complain about it on a public email list. If you are over the age of eighteen, which I believe you are, then I believe you are free to make your own choices. However, if you still live with your parents, and they are the ones who paid for the house, then it is only right of you to respect their rules while living in their house. if this living arrangement does not work well for you, then I believe you are free to find some other kind of living arrangement that would work better for you. If you believe you do not have either the skills or confidence to live on your own, then perhaps receiving more training in the skills of blindness would be best for you. Please forgive me if you feel as though I am being harsh here. However, I have seen you post countless emails asking us for advice, but it seems as though you are never willing to take any of the advice we offer you. It seems as though there is always some kind of reason why our advice would not work for your particular situation, and yet, you keep coming back to us asking us for more advice. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. From my point of view, this seems to be what you are doing every time you ask us for advice on your personal situation, but then choose not to follow it. it seems to me that you either need to make a decision to do something new, or stop your complaining. I honestly do not believe this email list should be a place for you to vent every time you experience a problem in your personal life. Warm regards, Elizabeth > From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:35:04 -0400 > Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > > Hi all, > > I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the lighthouse. > > I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb centers have you take everything. > > Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. > For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. > I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an adult from our state agency. > My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. > She taught me about our metro system too. > > I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. > > So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try anything. > She never says anything positive to move forward. I > don’t like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. > > She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to measure well and cook meat. > I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. > > She says things like > “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. > I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. > “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” > > I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those fs webinars are helpful. > When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. > When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. > Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or something. > > I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve used a lot of skills I learned. > > It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Apr 24 20:04:00 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:04:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: <000401cf5ff4$0e286120$2a792360$@verizon.net> References: <000401cf5ff4$0e286120$2a792360$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <497467B6CEA040309B6950CD287198E7@OwnerPC> Melissa, Right. my mom is protective alright. I think this is part of her negativity. She never remembers the various good things I do but every time something goes wrong like if I spill something like jelly when I was spreading it on a sandwich, she will comment, oh, how can you live on your own, you always make messes. Well, this is a very exaggeration and what about the hundreds of times I make a sandwich and nothing happens. Its rediculous. Its just hard to be an adult and hear I fail to try stuff when really I cannot do it without the knowledge. I do what I can myself now though. It seems like she should try to help me with independence if she supported it; sure she has no adaptive training but she could show me hand over hand. my dad shows me things a lot and I help him with the dishes sometimes. He and I have made a few things together like salad and breakfast food, but he's no cook. if he can do it, it seems like mom could if she wanted to. Yes I cannot change her. I guess I need to remember that and just move forward with out her support. If I opt to attend training, and she is still negative, I'll somehow move out; maybe find a cheap room; I won't be able to afford an apartment without a job, but maybe a room or something where I share a place. Something has to change. Thanks for the advice. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Melissa Hambleton Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 3:33 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words First thing to remember is that you can't change how your mother thinks or feels, she has to change those things herself if some day she is willing to do so. Now, either your mother may be over protective and says such things to discourage you from doing things more independently so that you will always be around or, she still lacks knowledge of what low vision and blind people can do for themselves. It doesn't matter if you got involved with braille or O&M and things like that, you got those resources and help from other people and not your mother directly so, she doesn't have that experience firsthand of what is possible for those who cannot see. Only you know how she will act/react to what you do and the things you try and discuss with her and you have some choices to make. You can come out and tell your mother what your plans are and try and express that you know that both of you don't agree on what you will do or you can let your mother hold you back and you will not progress. Try and come across to your mother in a positive way and mention positive things you will be able to do and accomplish and what your goals are. Try and stay away from blaming your mother of how she doesn't support you and how she has handled things in the past, this will only make her more defensive and more likely she will say negative things that will only make things worse between the both of you. The bad side is that you may have to live with hearing such things from your mother and you just need to tell yourself that you "can" do this or that and you will move forward in life and progress. Perhaps in time your mother will come around when she sees you being more independent or maybe she will not but, who is the one who needs to benefit right now with learning more independence and other skills? You do and not your mother. You know what you want to learn so that is a goal...so go out and manifest what you want by learning more skills and becoming more independent. Your mother is the one who has to learn other skills on her own, by owning up to her being non-supportive over overly protective in a very negative way--being protective is fine but, everything has a negative side too it when a person lets it go to an extreme level. Your mother will need to learn to be support and you not teach her that part...that will be her learning process if she chooses to do so. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Hi all, I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the lighthouse. I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb centers have you take everything. Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an adult from our state agency. My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. She taught me about our metro system too. I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try anything. She never says anything positive to move forward. I don’t like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to measure well and cook meat. I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. She says things like “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those fs webinars are helpful. When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or something. I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve used a lot of skills I learned. It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nightfury19%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Thu Apr 24 20:58:30 2014 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:58:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Reverse Venting References: Message-ID: Hello Ashley and everyone, Never mind getting half-arse training! Get over your hang-ups, Attend an NFB Center , complete it's core curriculum sleepshades and all and you'll be well on your way to becoming independent and making something of yourself. Don't sell yourself short. If it's the lighthouse approach your family is objecting to good for them! Now get on with it girl and let's stand on the mountain top together. Call this reverse venting. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 1:35 PM Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > Hi all, > > I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I > feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the > lighthouse. > > I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb > centers have you take everything. > > Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. > For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a > middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good > academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize > papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not > receive much training in regard to living skills. > I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an > adult from our state agency. > My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and > she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. > She taught me about our metro system too. > > I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came > to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything > at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. > > So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was > negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try > anything. > She never says anything positive to move forward. I > don’t like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. > > She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she > keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have > to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to > measure well and cook meat. > I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. > > She says things like > “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. > You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and > make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. > I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. > “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? > you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” > > I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m > fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those > fs webinars are helpful. > When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few > malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the > mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and > I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. > When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost > and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but > indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions > from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. > Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me > to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did > the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, > she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or > something. > > I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I > don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and > even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve > used a lot of skills I learned. > > It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m > incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Thu Apr 24 21:01:56 2014 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 16:01:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words References: <000401cf5ff4$0e286120$2a792360$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Good afternoon again everyone, This is all the more the reason to get away from that environment and attend an NFB Center. If they can help you find a job when training is complete by all means don't go back to that home environment. Call this tough love! Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melissa Hambleton" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > First thing to remember is that you can't change how your mother thinks or > feels, she has to change those things herself if some day she is willing > to do so. > > Now, either your mother may be over protective and says such things to > discourage you from doing things more independently so that you will > always be around or, she still lacks knowledge of what low vision and > blind people can do for themselves. It doesn't matter if you got involved > with braille or O&M and things like that, you got those resources and help > from other people and not your mother directly so, she doesn't have that > experience firsthand of what is possible for those who cannot see. > > Only you know how she will act/react to what you do and the things you try > and discuss with her and you have some choices to make. You can come out > and tell your mother what your plans are and try and express that you know > that both of you don't agree on what you will do or you can let your > mother hold you back and you will not progress. Try and come across to > your mother in a positive way and mention positive things you will be able > to do and accomplish and what your goals are. Try and stay away from > blaming your mother of how she doesn't support you and how she has handled > things in the past, this will only make her more defensive and more likely > she will say negative things that will only make things worse between the > both of you. > > The bad side is that you may have to live with hearing such things from > your mother and you just need to tell yourself that you "can" do this or > that and you will move forward in life and progress. Perhaps in time your > mother will come around when she sees you being more independent or maybe > she will not but, who is the one who needs to benefit right now with > learning more independence and other skills? You do and not your mother. > You know what you want to learn so that is a goal...so go out and manifest > what you want by learning more skills and becoming more independent. Your > mother is the one who has to learn other skills on her own, by owning up > to her being non-supportive over overly protective in a very negative > way--being protective is fine but, everything has a negative side too it > when a person lets it go to an extreme level. Your mother will need to > learn to be support and you not teach her that part...that will be her > learning process if she chooses to do so. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > > Hi all, > > I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I > feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the > lighthouse. > > I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb > centers have you take everything. > > Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. > For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a > middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good > academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize > papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not > receive much training in regard to living skills. > I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an > adult from our state agency. > My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and > she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. > She taught me about our metro system too. > > I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came > to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything > at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. > > So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was > negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try > anything. > She never says anything positive to move forward. I don’t like the idea of > WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. > > She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she > keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have > to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to > measure well and cook meat. > I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. > > She says things like > “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. > You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and > make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. > I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. > “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? > you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” > > I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m > fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those > fs webinars are helpful. > When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few > malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the > mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and > I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. > When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost > and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but > indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions > from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. > Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me > to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did > the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, > she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or > something. > > I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I > don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and > even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve > used a lot of skills I learned. > > It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m > incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nightfury19%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 21:29:33 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 17:29:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004601cf6004$497bcea0$dc736be0$@gmail.com> Ashley, Part of your situation is core parenting. My own stepmother knows I've traveled extensively, inside and outside of the country, but she still asks if someone will be waiting to help me on the other side of my plane trip. I deal with it and assume it's when she stops asking that something might be wrong. On some level I don't think parents ever stop viewing their children as children, so while I do think your mother could benefit from interacting with someone in the Parents' Division, I would encourage you to see the other side of it. Mom's just being a mom. Now, as to training, I would encourage you to attend an NFB training center if for no other reason than to get away for a while. Of all the things that discouraged me from attending, sleep shade training was somehow never one of them. I am one of those individuals who still relies on his diminishing sight to sometimes get around, but think of it as a confidence booster. If you can survive six months under sleep shades, and I have no reason to doubt your ability, there's damn near nothing you won't be able to do. Attending a training center just to get away? Yeah. If you happen to pick up some valuable skills along the way, so be it. After all, let's see it for what it is. At this moment you do not have a job. In other words, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Me, I think you can do it. Go out there, knock out the classes left and right, learn a thing or two. I've seen you advocate for yourself. I've seen you network. Somehow though I think you hesitate at that critical moment. Maybe it's your mother's negative influence. Or, maybe it's your own uncertainty about your full potential. You could go to the Lighthouse. No doubt you would learn a lot of valuable skills there too, but maybe you need a change of scenery. Keep us posted. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Hi all, I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the lighthouse. I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb centers have you take everything. Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an adult from our state agency. My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. She taught me about our metro system too. I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try anything. She never says anything positive to move forward. I don’t like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to measure well and cook meat. I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. She says things like “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those fs webinars are helpful. When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or something. I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve used a lot of skills I learned. It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 21:44:43 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 17:44:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words References: <004601cf6004$497bcea0$dc736be0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ashely, It's your choice as to which one to attend. If you want to attend an NFB center, it's your choice, if not, it's your choice. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > Ashley, > > Part of your situation is core parenting. My own stepmother knows I've > traveled extensively, inside and outside of the country, but she still > asks if someone will be waiting to help me on the other side of my plane > trip. I deal with it and assume it's when she stops asking that something > might be wrong. On some level I don't think parents ever stop viewing > their children as children, so while I do think your mother could benefit > from interacting with someone in the Parents' Division, I would encourage > you to see the other side of it. Mom's just being a mom. > > Now, as to training, I would encourage you to attend an NFB training > center if for no other reason than to get away for a while. Of all the > things that discouraged me from attending, sleep shade training was > somehow never one of them. I am one of those individuals who still relies > on his diminishing sight to sometimes get around, but think of it as a > confidence booster. If you can survive six months under sleep shades, and > I have no reason to doubt your ability, there's damn near nothing you > won't be able to do. > > Attending a training center just to get away? Yeah. If you happen to pick > up some valuable skills along the way, so be it. After all, let's see it > for what it is. At this moment you do not have a job. In other words, you > have nothing to lose and everything to gain. > > Me, I think you can do it. Go out there, knock out the classes left and > right, learn a thing or two. I've seen you advocate for yourself. I've > seen you network. Somehow though I think you hesitate at that critical > moment. Maybe it's your mother's negative influence. Or, maybe it's your > own uncertainty about your full potential. > > You could go to the Lighthouse. No doubt you would learn a lot of valuable > skills there too, but maybe you need a change of scenery. Keep us posted. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > > Hi all, > > I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I > feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the > lighthouse. > > I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb > centers have you take everything. > > Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. > For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a > middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good > academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize > papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not > receive much training in regard to living skills. > I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an > adult from our state agency. > My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and > she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. > She taught me about our metro system too. > > I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came > to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything > at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. > > So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was > negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try > anything. > She never says anything positive to move forward. I don’t like the idea of > WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. > > She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she > keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have > to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to > measure well and cook meat. > I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. > > She says things like > “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. > You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and > make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. > I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. > “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? > you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” > > I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m > fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those > fs webinars are helpful. > When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few > malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the > mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and > I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. > When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost > and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but > indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions > from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. > Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me > to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did > the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, > she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or > something. > > I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I > don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and > even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve > used a lot of skills I learned. > > It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m > incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > From anjelinac at att.net Thu Apr 24 21:47:06 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (anjelinac at att.net) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 17:47:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just as good as being able to learn new skills. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the lighthouse. > > I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb centers have you take everything. > > Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. > For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. > I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an adult from our state agency. > My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. > She taught me about our metro system too. > > I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. > > So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try anything. > She never says anything positive to move forward. I > don’t like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. > > She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to measure well and cook meat. > I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. > > She says things like > “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. > I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. > “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” > > I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those fs webinars are helpful. > When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. > When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. > Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or something. > > I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve used a lot of skills I learned. > > It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net From musicproandy at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 21:51:14 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 17:51:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> Message-ID: Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To those that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training anyway, I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably need to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and mobility skills, I would need their help to get there. On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: > Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to change > her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is work on > yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and deserve. I think > the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you have to take all the > classes. The classes can be geared toward your skills and abilities, but > being able to increase your skills is just as good as being able to learn > new skills. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I >> feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the >> lighthouse. >> >> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb >> centers have you take everything. >> >> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in a >> middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good >> academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize >> papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not >> receive much training in regard to living skills. >> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an >> adult from our state agency. >> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and >> she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >> She taught me about our metro system too. >> >> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came >> to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything >> at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >> >> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >> anything. >> She never says anything positive to move forward. I >> don't like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >> >> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt she >> keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have >> to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to >> measure well and cook meat. >> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >> >> She says things like >> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try things. >> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry and >> make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? >> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >> >> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I'm >> fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those >> fs webinars are helpful. >> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few >> malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for going to the >> mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and >> I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. >> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be lost >> and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but >> indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions >> from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. >> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me >> to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did >> the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, >> she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or >> something. >> >> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I >> don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost case, and >> even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true at all. I've >> used a lot of skills I learned. >> >> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels I'm >> incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her otherwise. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 21:57:07 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 17:57:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> Message-ID: <002a01cf6008$239fbdf0$6adf39d0$@gmail.com> This is where you coordinate with the center and your counselor. The center knows you are in need of training, so I'm sure they could find a way to meet you at the airport. The vocational rehabilitation agency should get you there. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To those that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training anyway, I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably need to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and mobility skills, I would need their help to get there. On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: > Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to > change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is > work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and > deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you > have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your > skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just > as good as being able to learn new skills. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training >> from the lighthouse. >> >> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >> and nfb centers have you take everything. >> >> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in >> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and >> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. >> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as >> an adult from our state agency. >> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion >> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >> She taught me about our metro system too. >> >> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >> >> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >> anything. >> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >> >> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know >> how to measure well and cook meat. >> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >> >> She says things like >> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try things. >> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? >> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >> >> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. >> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a >> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. >> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. >> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much >> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >> see others do it via tv or something. >> >> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >> >> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her otherwise. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >> et > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Apr 24 21:58:02 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 17:58:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> Message-ID: <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> Where there is a will, there is a way. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To those that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training anyway, I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably need to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and mobility skills, I would need their help to get there. On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: > Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to > change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is > work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and > deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you > have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your > skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just > as good as being able to learn new skills. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training >> from the lighthouse. >> >> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >> and nfb centers have you take everything. >> >> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in >> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and >> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. >> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as >> an adult from our state agency. >> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion >> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >> She taught me about our metro system too. >> >> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >> >> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >> anything. >> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >> >> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know >> how to measure well and cook meat. >> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >> >> She says things like >> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try things. >> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? >> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >> >> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. >> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a >> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. >> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. >> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much >> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >> see others do it via tv or something. >> >> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >> >> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her otherwise. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >> et > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From anjelinac at att.net Fri Apr 25 00:14:47 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (anjelinac at att.net) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:14:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our actions and our lives. If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say in an airport there always people there who can help you. The training center is also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent skills. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > Where there is a will, there is a way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > > Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To those > that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training anyway, > I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably need > to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and mobility > skills, I would need their help to get there. > > >> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >> as good as being able to learn new skills. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training >>> from the lighthouse. >>> >>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>> >>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in >>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and >>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. >>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as >>> an adult from our state agency. >>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion >>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>> >>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>> >>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>> anything. >>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>> >>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know >>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>> >>> She says things like >>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try > things. >>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? >>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>> >>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. >>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a >>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M > skills. >>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far > astray. >>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much >>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >>> see others do it via tv or something. >>> >>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>> >>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her otherwise. >>> >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>> et >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >> il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net From hope.paulos at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 00:39:18 2014 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:39:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> Message-ID: <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. As far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS program I believe. You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. I wish you all the best. Hope Paulos > On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: > > Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our actions and our lives. > If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say in an airport there always people there who can help you. The training center is also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent skills. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" wrote: >> >> Where there is a will, there is a way. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words >> >> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To those >> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training anyway, >> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably need >> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and mobility >> skills, I would need their help to get there. >> >> >>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training >>>> from the lighthouse. >>>> >>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in >>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and >>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. >>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as >>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion >>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>> >>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>> >>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>> anything. >>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>> >>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know >>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>> >>>> She says things like >>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >> things. >>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? >>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>> >>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. >>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a >>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >> skills. >>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >> astray. >>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much >>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>> >>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>> >>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her otherwise. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>> et >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 01:20:41 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 19:20:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind person would probably advance your skills. Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center when you first arrive. Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that knowledge into action. The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and real-world experience living away from family. Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and self-reliance. I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the world around me because I can't see. I never really had age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing with their lives. I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else thinks. Best, Arielle On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: > I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. As > far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS program > I believe. > You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. > I wish you all the best. > > > Hope Paulos > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >> >> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your >> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however >> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our >> actions and our lives. >> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say in an >> airport there always people there who can help you. The training center is >> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent skills. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Where there is a will, there is a way. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>> words >>> >>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To >>> those >>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training >>> anyway, >>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably >>> need >>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and >>> mobility >>> skills, I would need their help to get there. >>> >>> >>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training >>>>> from the lighthouse. >>>>> >>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in >>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and >>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. >>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as >>>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion >>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>>> >>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>>> >>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>>> anything. >>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>>> >>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know >>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>>> >>>>> She says things like >>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >>> things. >>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to >>>>> cook? >>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>>> >>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. >>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a >>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >>> skills. >>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >>> astray. >>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much >>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >>>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>>> >>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>>> >>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her >>>>> otherwise. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>>> et >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Fri Apr 25 02:05:05 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:05:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: , <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net>, , <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com>, <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net>, <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Hello Arielle, A great post! I do not think I could have said it any better than what you wrote. I think you really hit the nail on the head with this one. It seems to explain everything rather nicely. Warm regards, Elizabeth > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 19:20:41 -0600 > From: arielle71 at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > > Hi Ashley, > > First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You > could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important > to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually > higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am > pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB > centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you > have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind > person would probably advance your skills. > Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test > run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the > end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center > when you first arrive. > > Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she > is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually > all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve > everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I > believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted > parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally > developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at > the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, > still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a > tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure > out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already > know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you > won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that > knowledge into action. > > The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and > real-world experience living away from family. > Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents > is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind > that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and > diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that > most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly > understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents > who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best > possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult > to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, > add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your > parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it > can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most > sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible > public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is > struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related > activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing > parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this > sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder > if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent > for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with > good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and > self-reliance. > I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers > and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to > LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for > any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, > but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and > independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, > no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, > they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the > world around me because I can't see. I never really had > age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my > skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my > parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between > them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a > few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can > see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing > with their lives. > I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the > NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to > live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also > receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you > can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess > the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of > living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect > and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else > thinks. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: > > I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. As > > far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS program > > I believe. > > You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. > > I wish you all the best. > > > > > > Hope Paulos > > > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: > >> > >> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your > >> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however > >> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our > >> actions and our lives. > >> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say in an > >> airport there always people there who can help you. The training center is > >> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent skills. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Where there is a will, there is a way. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative > >>> words > >>> > >>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To > >>> those > >>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training > >>> anyway, > >>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably > >>> need > >>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and > >>> mobility > >>> skills, I would need their help to get there. > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: > >>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to > >>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is > >>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and > >>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you > >>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your > >>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just > >>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi all, > >>>>> > >>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb > >>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training > >>>>> from the lighthouse. > >>>>> > >>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades > >>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. > >>>>> > >>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. > >>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in > >>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly > >>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and > >>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws > >>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. > >>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as > >>>>> an adult from our state agency. > >>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion > >>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. > >>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. > >>>>> > >>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who > >>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get > >>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. > >>>>> > >>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was > >>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try > >>>>> anything. > >>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the > >>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. > >>>>> > >>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt > >>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. > >>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know > >>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. > >>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. > >>>>> > >>>>> She says things like > >>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try > >>> things. > >>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry > >>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. > >>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. > >>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to > >>>>> cook? > >>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." > >>>>> > >>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. > >>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the > >>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. > >>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a > >>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for > >>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little > >>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M > >>> skills. > >>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be > >>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside > >>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to > >>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far > >>> astray. > >>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she > >>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my > >>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much > >>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can > >>>>> see others do it via tv or something. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to > >>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost > >>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true > >>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. > >>>>> > >>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels > >>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her > >>>>> otherwise. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ashley > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n > >>>>> et > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma > >>>> il.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > >>> .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 03:06:28 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:06:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <004601cf6004$497bcea0$dc736be0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9F3613649C97401283DBE406727927A6@OwnerPC> rj, true and if I opt to attend another center elsewhere the state should support it cause its my right. We'll see what happens. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:44 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Ashely, It's your choice as to which one to attend. If you want to attend an NFB center, it's your choice, if not, it's your choice. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > Ashley, > > Part of your situation is core parenting. My own stepmother knows I've > traveled extensively, inside and outside of the country, but she still > asks if someone will be waiting to help me on the other side of my plane > trip. I deal with it and assume it's when she stops asking that something > might be wrong. On some level I don't think parents ever stop viewing > their children as children, so while I do think your mother could benefit > from interacting with someone in the Parents' Division, I would encourage > you to see the other side of it. Mom's just being a mom. > > Now, as to training, I would encourage you to attend an NFB training > center if for no other reason than to get away for a while. Of all the > things that discouraged me from attending, sleep shade training was > somehow never one of them. I am one of those individuals who still relies > on his diminishing sight to sometimes get around, but think of it as a > confidence booster. If you can survive six months under sleep shades, and > I have no reason to doubt your ability, there's damn near nothing you > won't be able to do. > > Attending a training center just to get away? Yeah. If you happen to pick > up some valuable skills along the way, so be it. After all, let's see it > for what it is. At this moment you do not have a job. In other words, you > have nothing to lose and everything to gain. > > Me, I think you can do it. Go out there, knock out the classes left and > right, learn a thing or two. I've seen you advocate for yourself. I've > seen you network. Somehow though I think you hesitate at that critical > moment. Maybe it's your mother's negative influence. Or, maybe it's your > own uncertainty about your full potential. > > You could go to the Lighthouse. No doubt you would learn a lot of valuable > skills there too, but maybe you need a change of scenery. Keep us posted. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > > Hi all, > > I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I > feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the > lighthouse. > > I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb > centers have you take everything. > > Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. > For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a > middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good > academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize > papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not > receive much training in regard to living skills. > I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an > adult from our state agency. > My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and > she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. > She taught me about our metro system too. > > I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came > to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything > at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. > > So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was > negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try > anything. > She never says anything positive to move forward. I don’t like the idea of > WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. > > She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she > keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have > to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to > measure well and cook meat. > I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. > > She says things like > “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. > You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and > make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. > I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. > “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? > you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” > > I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m > fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those > fs webinars are helpful. > When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few > malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the > mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and > I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. > When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost > and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but > indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions > from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. > Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me > to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did > the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, > she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or > something. > > I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I > don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and > even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve > used a lot of skills I learned. > > It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m > incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 03:39:02 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:39:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net><000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com><30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net><31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: Arielle, Thanks. I think your post raises some good points and I do agree that parents can be protective coupled with the fact that yes indeed the transportation is a lot to be desired where sighted couples tend to live. We live in suburbs. The metro subway is extending near us but still I would need a cab; its approx 3 miles to the new metro so I need a ride via cab or family to get there. Still it will augment my travel options once its here in about four months. This I really look forward to because it knocks out one of the biggest excuses for not using the rail system more; its inconvenient to get there having to not only attempt to park in the crowded lot, but also take like 25 minutes to get there. I have access to paratransit now which I sometimes use like to get to the mall I know where my gym is. You're right that only training can go so far and I do agree that you have to experiment some, but still if you don't have a basis for recipe language or you cannot tell when your meat is cooked, you don't have a safe or adaquate foundation to cook. As for my mom, she is overprotective and overlooks skills I need. I'll never change her mind so I guess I should just learn what I can and go on. I'll just try and ignore the negativity rather than argue. I totally feel what you're saying about jobs. When I sought internships, I came back home from the freedom I had in the dorm setting. Here I relied on my parents for transit to the job interviews and even to work in the morning but did use the metro to go part way home and got a ride from the metro. Since they really did not want to fight rush hour traffic on a huge busy road we nick name the belt way around here, I was easily able to advocate to them I'd do the metro route fine and since it required little outdoor travel, I think even my mom was okay with it. I also relied on them for basic necessities like any college student would; I did not have the money to buy my own work clothes or buy my metro fares. So, they had to support me in my work related expenses in terms of dressing and transit. I am actually pretty grateful since my dad did support me also in filling out paperwork for my federal internships. I had to have a scribe as there was no way to do it otherwise. This also helped me in a way for the rest of the summer to have income and when in school, I had extra money to do as I pleased. You also implied that many young blind adults may find their independence being curtailed between college and work, and I agree. Its unfortunate that not all parents show us things and embrace the abilities of blind people. They equate lack of sight with lack of ability, and perhaps there is no way to change this. I'm glad you had a plan that worked for you and I think you have a job now which is excellent given our economy. Well, nice food for thought. Oh, rent being paid for by rehab, a pipe dream. Ashley Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Hi Ashley, First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind person would probably advance your skills. Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center when you first arrive. Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that knowledge into action. The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and real-world experience living away from family. Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and self-reliance. I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the world around me because I can't see. I never really had age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing with their lives. I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else thinks. Best, Arielle On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: > I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. As > far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS > program > I believe. > You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. > I wish you all the best. > > > Hope Paulos > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >> >> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your >> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however >> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our >> actions and our lives. >> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say in >> an >> airport there always people there who can help you. The training center >> is >> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent skills. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Where there is a will, there is a way. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>> words >>> >>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To >>> those >>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training >>> anyway, >>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably >>> need >>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and >>> mobility >>> skills, I would need their help to get there. >>> >>> >>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training >>>>> from the lighthouse. >>>>> >>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in >>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and >>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. >>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as >>>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion >>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>>> >>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>>> >>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>>> anything. >>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>>> >>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know >>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>>> >>>>> She says things like >>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >>> things. >>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to >>>>> cook? >>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>>> >>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. >>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a >>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >>> skills. >>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >>> astray. >>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much >>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >>>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>>> >>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>>> >>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her >>>>> otherwise. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>>> et >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 03:55:40 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:55:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Questions on Freedom of Experiment Design and Thesis Topic Selection, and Dealing with the Heat In-Reply-To: <003901cf5fc7$b964df00$2c2e9d00$@gmail.com> References: <003901cf5fc7$b964df00$2c2e9d00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Zach, I don't think there are many biology graduate students on this list right now. But it looks like these questions are not blindness-specific, so you could ask them of any biology grad student, postdoc or faculty. Can you discuss this with your former mentor or meet with a graduate advisor at one of the schools you are considering applying to? I am finishing a Ph.D. in psychology, so not exactly your field. But my experience has been that mentors often have a lot of control over what a graduate student studies in the beginning. Over time, students are encouraged to develop their own interests, but even then a student's dissertation is often required to be generally related to the mentor's interests. I have also observed that students whose interests closely match their mentor's tend to get better mentorship. This is sad, I think, but just part of the human relationship between mentors and graduate students at least in psychology. So, I guess I think it would be to your advantage to try to get a Ph.D. position in a lab that closely matches your interests, even if you think you will need to get a little more training first. Of course, though, this route may be more expensive. If money is tight, you may opt to go straight to a Ph.D. position (which is often funded in terms of tuition and stipend, I think) even if your dissertation work might not be in your specific field of interest. Best, Arielle On 4/24/14, Zach Mason wrote: > These are questions primarily for current or recently graduated PhD's and > MS's in the biological sciences, but others are welcome to express their > views and experiences. I plan to apply to graduate programs for fall 2015. > I'd like to work in lactation biology. It seems as though, from talking to > masters and PhD students, there are varying degrees to how one's program is > dictated by the faculty mentor. In the summer of 2013 I was selected to a > research fellowship at Purdue University. I worked with two faculty, their > lab technician, and a graduate student on a swine metabolism trial. The > graduate student in this instance, though he knew a lot about the overall > project, was more or less chosen to work on the project, not because it > was > his passion, but more because the team had funding for him. Is this a > typical scenario in today's environment of tight research budgets? > > > > Secondly, the number of labs doing exactly the kind of research I'm > interested in are few and far between. Competition is pretty intense to get > into them. Am I better off to do a masters in a related field, perhaps a > physiology, genetics or biochemistry lab where my skills could be > transferred and then apply to the lactation biology labs for my PhD? > > > > I'd really appreciate it if someone could share their experience, > particularly someone with a background in cellular biology, genetics or > biochemistry. Feel free to contact me off list if that's better for you. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Zac > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From louvins at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 04:08:46 2014 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:08:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi to all. Arielle, I enjoyed your post. As a blind adult living at home, I understand about relying on parents for things. You are correct when you talked about sighted people living where there is little paratransit. I live in a small town, with no transit system, so would have to rely on a family member to take me different places. ?Ashley, I hope you can go to an NFB training center if that is your choice. I had to talk my state rehab service in to just cending me to the instate training center in Chicago. I'm also looking forward to going to ICREWOOD not just because of the training, but to get away from home for a few months. I know how neat NFB training centers sound, but for me, I just didn't want to fight and have to wait for months and months for my state in Illinois to possibly aprove me for training at an NFB CENTER. Ashley, having a mom like yours sounds difficult, but you need to do what is best for you regarding training. You need to live your own life. Good luck. Thanks everyone for a great list. I always find it very interesting reading the different posts. On 4/24/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > > Thanks. I think your post raises some good points and I do agree that > parents can be protective coupled with the fact that yes indeed > the transportation is a lot to be desired where sighted couples tend to > live. We live in suburbs. The metro subway is extending near us but still I > > would need a cab; its approx 3 miles to the new metro so I need a ride via > cab or family to get there. Still it will augment my travel options once its > > here in about four months. > This I really look forward to because it knocks out one of the biggest > excuses for not using the rail system more; its inconvenient to get there > having to not only attempt to park in the crowded lot, but also take like > 25 minutes to get there. > > I have access to paratransit now which I sometimes use like to get to the > mall I know where my gym is. > You're right that only training can go so far and I do agree that you have > > to experiment some, but still if you don't have a basis for recipe language > > or you cannot tell when your meat is cooked, you don't have a safe or > adaquate foundation to cook. > > As for my mom, she is overprotective and overlooks skills I need. I'll > never change her mind so I guess I should just learn what I can and go on. > I'll just try and ignore the negativity rather than argue. > > I totally feel what you're saying about jobs. When I sought internships, I > came back home from the freedom I had in the dorm setting. > Here I relied on my parents for transit to the job interviews and even to > work in the morning but did use the metro to go part way home and got a ride > > from the metro. > Since they really did not want to fight rush hour traffic on a huge busy > road we nick name the belt way around here, I was easily able to advocate to > > them I'd do the metro route fine and since it required little outdoor > travel, I think > even my mom was okay with it. > > I also relied on them for basic necessities like any college student would; > > I did not have the money to buy my own work clothes or buy my metro fares. > So, they had to support me in my work related expenses in terms of dressing > > and transit. I am actually pretty grateful since my dad did support me also > > in filling out paperwork for my federal internships. I had to have a scribe > > as there was no way > to do it otherwise. This also helped me in a way for the rest of the summer > > to have income and when in school, I had extra money to do as I pleased. > You also implied that many young blind adults may find their independence > being curtailed between college and work, and I agree. > Its unfortunate that not all parents show us things and embrace the > abilities of blind people. They equate lack of sight with lack of ability, > and perhaps there is no way to change this. > > I'm glad you had a plan that worked for you and I think you have a job now > which is excellent given our economy. > Well, nice food for thought. > Oh, rent being paid for by rehab, a pipe dream. > Ashley > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > > Hi Ashley, > > First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You > could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important > to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually > higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am > pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB > centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you > have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind > person would probably advance your skills. > Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test > run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the > end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center > when you first arrive. > > Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she > is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually > all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve > everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I > believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted > parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally > developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at > the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, > still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a > tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure > out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already > know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you > won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that > knowledge into action. > > The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and > real-world experience living away from family. > Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents > is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind > that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and > diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that > most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly > understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents > who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best > possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult > to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, > add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your > parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it > can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most > sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible > public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is > struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related > activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing > parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this > sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder > if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent > for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with > good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and > self-reliance. > I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers > and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to > LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for > any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, > but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and > independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, > no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, > they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the > world around me because I can't see. I never really had > age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my > skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my > parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between > them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a > few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can > see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing > with their lives. > I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the > NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to > live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also > receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you > can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess > the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of > living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect > and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else > thinks. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: >> I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. >> As >> far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS >> program >> I believe. >> You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. >> I wish you all the best. >> >> >> Hope Paulos >> >>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your >>> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however >>> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our >>> actions and our lives. >>> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say in >>> an >>> airport there always people there who can help you. The training center >>> is >>> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent skills. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Where there is a will, there is a way. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>>> words >>>> >>>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To >>>> those >>>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training >>>> anyway, >>>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably >>>> need >>>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and >>>> mobility >>>> skills, I would need their help to get there. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training >>>>>> from the lighthouse. >>>>>> >>>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in >>>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and >>>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. >>>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as >>>>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion >>>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>>>> anything. >>>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>>>> >>>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >>>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know >>>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>>>> >>>>>> She says things like >>>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >>>> things. >>>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >>>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to >>>>>> cook? >>>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>>>> >>>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. >>>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a >>>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >>>> skills. >>>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >>>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >>>> astray. >>>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much >>>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >>>>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >>>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >>>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her >>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>>>> et >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 04:17:13 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 00:17:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: <004601cf6004$497bcea0$dc736be0$@gmail.com> References: <004601cf6004$497bcea0$dc736be0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <674BB9E02891483AB9BADF340418B8D1@OwnerPC> Joe, right. mom is being a mom and sadly she will always see me as the baby. Still its hurtful for her not to try and teach me things. I do some things my own and she Is critical with every little mistake; I just have to stand it for a while though. Yeah, it depends on your parents style as illustrated by your step mother. example. Some parents just encourage more. Glad for the understanding. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:29 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Ashley, Part of your situation is core parenting. My own stepmother knows I've traveled extensively, inside and outside of the country, but she still asks if someone will be waiting to help me on the other side of my plane trip. I deal with it and assume it's when she stops asking that something might be wrong. On some level I don't think parents ever stop viewing their children as children, so while I do think your mother could benefit from interacting with someone in the Parents' Division, I would encourage you to see the other side of it. Mom's just being a mom. Now, as to training, I would encourage you to attend an NFB training center if for no other reason than to get away for a while. Of all the things that discouraged me from attending, sleep shade training was somehow never one of them. I am one of those individuals who still relies on his diminishing sight to sometimes get around, but think of it as a confidence booster. If you can survive six months under sleep shades, and I have no reason to doubt your ability, there's damn near nothing you won't be able to do. Attending a training center just to get away? Yeah. If you happen to pick up some valuable skills along the way, so be it. After all, let's see it for what it is. At this moment you do not have a job. In other words, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Me, I think you can do it. Go out there, knock out the classes left and right, learn a thing or two. I've seen you advocate for yourself. I've seen you network. Somehow though I think you hesitate at that critical moment. Maybe it's your mother's negative influence. Or, maybe it's your own uncertainty about your full potential. You could go to the Lighthouse. No doubt you would learn a lot of valuable skills there too, but maybe you need a change of scenery. Keep us posted. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 2:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Hi all, I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training from the lighthouse. I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades and nfb centers have you take everything. Anyway, I’m very hurt that my mom won’t support training. For those who did not read much from me before, I’ll say I grew up in a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as an adult from our state agency. My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. She taught me about our metro system too. I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don’t try anything. She never says anything positive to move forward. I don’t like the idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. She doesn’t support training. She blames me. I’m so tired and hurt she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know how to measure well and cook meat. I’ve seen recipies and I don’t understand the lingo. She says things like “oh, you don’t need training you had enough. You just need to try things. You’re here often and don’t do much.” I say I do and I do my laundry and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. “Why don’t you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to cook? you just aren’t adventurous. You should do more.” I tell her I don’t know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. I’m fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the computer. those fs webinars are helpful. When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a few malls on my own. My parents wouldn’t support that except for going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M skills. When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I’ll be lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far astray. Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can see others do it via tv or something. I’m so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to say I don’t need more training is worse. Its like to her, I’m a lost case, and even if I’m trained I won’t learn and won’t try. Not true at all. I’ve used a lot of skills I learned. It is just so amazing my mom won’t support my independence and feels I’m incapable of it. I guess I’ll someday move and prove her otherwise. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 04:18:33 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 00:18:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net><000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com><30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net><31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: joshua, Yeah, I know what you mean about the transit; we have some paratransit but its limited sometimes due to the main bus schedule. Its sadly something we deal with til we move out I suppose. I hope you get what you need in training. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Hendrickson Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:08 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words Hi to all. Arielle, I enjoyed your post. As a blind adult living at home, I understand about relying on parents for things. You are correct when you talked about sighted people living where there is little paratransit. I live in a small town, with no transit system, so would have to rely on a family member to take me different places. ?Ashley, I hope you can go to an NFB training center if that is your choice. I had to talk my state rehab service in to just cending me to the instate training center in Chicago. I'm also looking forward to going to ICREWOOD not just because of the training, but to get away from home for a few months. I know how neat NFB training centers sound, but for me, I just didn't want to fight and have to wait for months and months for my state in Illinois to possibly aprove me for training at an NFB CENTER. Ashley, having a mom like yours sounds difficult, but you need to do what is best for you regarding training. You need to live your own life. Good luck. Thanks everyone for a great list. I always find it very interesting reading the different posts. On 4/24/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Arielle, > > Thanks. I think your post raises some good points and I do agree that > parents can be protective coupled with the fact that yes indeed > the transportation is a lot to be desired where sighted couples tend to > live. We live in suburbs. The metro subway is extending near us but still > I > > would need a cab; its approx 3 miles to the new metro so I need a ride via > cab or family to get there. Still it will augment my travel options once > its > > here in about four months. > This I really look forward to because it knocks out one of the biggest > excuses for not using the rail system more; its inconvenient to get there > having to not only attempt to park in the crowded lot, but also take like > 25 minutes to get there. > > I have access to paratransit now which I sometimes use like to get to the > mall I know where my gym is. > You're right that only training can go so far and I do agree that you > have > > to experiment some, but still if you don't have a basis for recipe > language > > or you cannot tell when your meat is cooked, you don't have a safe or > adaquate foundation to cook. > > As for my mom, she is overprotective and overlooks skills I need. I'll > never change her mind so I guess I should just learn what I can and go on. > I'll just try and ignore the negativity rather than argue. > > I totally feel what you're saying about jobs. When I sought internships, I > came back home from the freedom I had in the dorm setting. > Here I relied on my parents for transit to the job interviews and even to > work in the morning but did use the metro to go part way home and got a > ride > > from the metro. > Since they really did not want to fight rush hour traffic on a huge busy > road we nick name the belt way around here, I was easily able to advocate > to > > them I'd do the metro route fine and since it required little outdoor > travel, I think > even my mom was okay with it. > > I also relied on them for basic necessities like any college student > would; > > I did not have the money to buy my own work clothes or buy my metro fares. > So, they had to support me in my work related expenses in terms of > dressing > > and transit. I am actually pretty grateful since my dad did support me > also > > in filling out paperwork for my federal internships. I had to have a > scribe > > as there was no way > to do it otherwise. This also helped me in a way for the rest of the > summer > > to have income and when in school, I had extra money to do as I pleased. > You also implied that many young blind adults may find their independence > being curtailed between college and work, and I agree. > Its unfortunate that not all parents show us things and embrace the > abilities of blind people. They equate lack of sight with lack of ability, > and perhaps there is no way to change this. > > I'm glad you had a plan that worked for you and I think you have a job now > which is excellent given our economy. > Well, nice food for thought. > Oh, rent being paid for by rehab, a pipe dream. > Ashley > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative > words > > Hi Ashley, > > First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You > could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important > to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually > higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am > pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB > centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you > have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind > person would probably advance your skills. > Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test > run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the > end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center > when you first arrive. > > Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she > is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually > all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve > everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I > believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted > parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally > developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at > the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, > still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a > tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure > out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already > know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you > won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that > knowledge into action. > > The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and > real-world experience living away from family. > Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents > is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind > that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and > diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that > most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly > understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents > who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best > possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult > to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, > add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your > parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it > can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most > sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible > public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is > struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related > activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing > parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this > sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder > if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent > for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with > good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and > self-reliance. > I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers > and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to > LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for > any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, > but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and > independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, > no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, > they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the > world around me because I can't see. I never really had > age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my > skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my > parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between > them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a > few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can > see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing > with their lives. > I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the > NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to > live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also > receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you > can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess > the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of > living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect > and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else > thinks. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: >> I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. >> As >> far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS >> program >> I believe. >> You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. >> I wish you all the best. >> >> >> Hope Paulos >> >>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your >>> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however >>> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our >>> actions and our lives. >>> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say in >>> an >>> airport there always people there who can help you. The training center >>> is >>> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent skills. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Where there is a will, there is a way. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>>> words >>>> >>>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To >>>> those >>>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training >>>> anyway, >>>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd probably >>>> need >>>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and >>>> mobility >>>> skills, I would need their help to get there. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house training >>>>>> from the lighthouse. >>>>>> >>>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up in >>>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label and >>>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living skills. >>>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training as >>>>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery fashion >>>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>>>> anything. >>>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>>>> >>>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >>>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to know >>>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>>>> >>>>>> She says things like >>>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >>>> things. >>>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >>>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to >>>>>> cook? >>>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>>>> >>>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not lazy. >>>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to a >>>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >>>> skills. >>>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >>>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >>>> astray. >>>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me much >>>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >>>>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >>>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >>>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her >>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>>>> et >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 05:11:05 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 01:11:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, Specifically to cooking, I can say that it is possible to learn how to cook on your own. I am in the process of doing it myself. Growing up, my mom was pretty supportive and taught me most things (how to take care of myself, how to label things with tactile markers (because I didn't actually get that from the state), and other things), but she did the adaptive stuff just with me telling her how I needed it done. I understood my mom was not a rehab professional, so it took my guidance to get things like our digital washing machine labeled so I could work the digital thing. Sometimes, I had to pester her and remind her that in order to do laundry, per say, I needed the machine labeled. My mom also had a tendency to get a little impatient if I had trouble catching on to her labeling systems or whatever, and again I had to just understand she wasn't a pro at this. The same thing happened with cooking. I was really interested in learning to cook with the oven and stove, but didn't know where any of the buttons were or how to do anything. Aside from a few batches of cookies, and one pan of lasagna which I made with a lot of her assistance, I never cooked with anything other than the microwave until this year of college when I had a kitchen in my apartment. There are a few basic things you can just learn by trying yourself. I'd start with the stove rather than the oven, because personally that worked well for me. Of course, some stove and oven controls are better than others, and that was certainly the case between my home and apartment stoves (my apartment stove actually has dials for the burners with a tactile marking already on them, and they click into the different places so it works well without any modification). I started boiling things, because those are very hard to screw up. Rice, pasta, and hard boiling eggs are very simple. You just put them in a pot of water. Rice and pasta you add once the water is boiling, but if you make eggs make sure you put eggs in before boiling water, because obviously the water will be hot once you turn the burner on. You can also try making simple things in a skillet. Grilled cheese is really easy. (take bread, put some butter on it, add cheese and another slice of bread, cook on medium and flip till both sides are toasted). It is quick, and you should be able to smell when it is time to flip. If you want to try the oven, cookies are actually really easy. Making them from scratch is not hard at all, you just add everything for the dough in a bowl, roll it into balls, and place equidistantly on the cookie sheet. Place in a pre-heated oven at 350 degrees for about 10 to 15 minutes, and take the cookies out. Again, you should be able to smell when they're done pretty easily. If you're not sure, don't be afraid to take them out and poke them with something. I've let them cool for a minute and used my finger before, or you can also use a fork. All you want to see is if the cookies are still gooey. If they are, pop them back in for a few more minutes. It is really possible for a blind person to learn to cook through trial and error. YOu might burn a few things at first, but once you get the hang of it you can start working your way up to the meats. Also, remember that even sighted people cook with the microwave. What I do when I make a spaghetti dinner for example, is cook the pasta on the stove, and pop the sauce and the meatballs into the microwave for a few minutes. It is perfectly fine to buy pre-formed meatballs and cook them like that, since that is not a blindness thing. If you want to make them yourself though, all you have to do is get some ground beef, form it into balls, and place them in a dish like a pyrex so it can cook in the oven. They shouldn't take long to cook that way either. The sauce can also be heated on the stove, but again, probably more because I'm a college student than I'm a blind student, I take the easy way out and use the microwave to speed up the process. Hope this helps at least in this area. It's really not as scary as it seems once you start experimenting with the oven and stove. On 4/25/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > joshua, > Yeah, I know what you mean about the transit; we have some paratransit but > its limited sometimes due to the main bus schedule. > Its sadly something we deal with til we move out I suppose. I hope you get > what you need in training. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Hendrickson > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:08 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words > > Hi to all. Arielle, I enjoyed your post. As a blind adult living at > home, I understand about relying on parents for things. You are > correct when you talked about sighted people living where there is > little paratransit. I live in a small town, with no transit system, > so would have to rely on a family member to take me different places. > ?Ashley, I hope you can go to an NFB training center if that is your > choice. I had to talk my state rehab service in to just cending me to > the instate training center in Chicago. I'm also looking forward to > going to ICREWOOD not just because of the training, but to get away > from home for a few months. I know how neat NFB training centers > sound, but for me, I just didn't want to fight and have to wait for > months and months for my state in Illinois to possibly aprove me for > training at an NFB CENTER. Ashley, having a mom like yours sounds > difficult, but you need to do what is best for you regarding training. > You need to live your own life. Good luck. Thanks everyone for a > great list. I always find it very interesting reading the different > posts. > > On 4/24/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> Thanks. I think your post raises some good points and I do agree that >> parents can be protective coupled with the fact that yes indeed >> the transportation is a lot to be desired where sighted couples tend to >> live. We live in suburbs. The metro subway is extending near us but still >> >> I >> >> would need a cab; its approx 3 miles to the new metro so I need a ride >> via >> cab or family to get there. Still it will augment my travel options once >> its >> >> here in about four months. >> This I really look forward to because it knocks out one of the biggest >> excuses for not using the rail system more; its inconvenient to get there >> having to not only attempt to park in the crowded lot, but also take >> like >> 25 minutes to get there. >> >> I have access to paratransit now which I sometimes use like to get to the >> mall I know where my gym is. >> You're right that only training can go so far and I do agree that you >> have >> >> to experiment some, but still if you don't have a basis for recipe >> language >> >> or you cannot tell when your meat is cooked, you don't have a safe or >> adaquate foundation to cook. >> >> As for my mom, she is overprotective and overlooks skills I need. I'll >> never change her mind so I guess I should just learn what I can and go >> on. >> I'll just try and ignore the negativity rather than argue. >> >> I totally feel what you're saying about jobs. When I sought internships, >> I >> came back home from the freedom I had in the dorm setting. >> Here I relied on my parents for transit to the job interviews and even to >> work in the morning but did use the metro to go part way home and got a >> ride >> >> from the metro. >> Since they really did not want to fight rush hour traffic on a huge busy >> road we nick name the belt way around here, I was easily able to advocate >> >> to >> >> them I'd do the metro route fine and since it required little outdoor >> travel, I think >> even my mom was okay with it. >> >> I also relied on them for basic necessities like any college student >> would; >> >> I did not have the money to buy my own work clothes or buy my metro >> fares. >> So, they had to support me in my work related expenses in terms of >> dressing >> >> and transit. I am actually pretty grateful since my dad did support me >> also >> >> in filling out paperwork for my federal internships. I had to have a >> scribe >> >> as there was no way >> to do it otherwise. This also helped me in a way for the rest of the >> summer >> >> to have income and when in school, I had extra money to do as I pleased. >> You also implied that many young blind adults may find their independence >> being curtailed between college and work, and I agree. >> Its unfortunate that not all parents show us things and embrace the >> abilities of blind people. They equate lack of sight with lack of >> ability, >> and perhaps there is no way to change this. >> >> I'm glad you had a plan that worked for you and I think you have a job >> now >> which is excellent given our economy. >> Well, nice food for thought. >> Oh, rent being paid for by rehab, a pipe dream. >> Ashley >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:20 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >> words >> >> Hi Ashley, >> >> First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You >> could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important >> to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually >> higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am >> pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB >> centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you >> have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind >> person would probably advance your skills. >> Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test >> run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the >> end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center >> when you first arrive. >> >> Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she >> is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually >> all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve >> everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I >> believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted >> parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally >> developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at >> the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, >> still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a >> tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure >> out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already >> know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you >> won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that >> knowledge into action. >> >> The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and >> real-world experience living away from family. >> Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents >> is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind >> that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and >> diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that >> most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly >> understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents >> who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best >> possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult >> to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, >> add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your >> parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it >> can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most >> sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible >> public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is >> struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related >> activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing >> parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this >> sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder >> if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent >> for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with >> good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and >> self-reliance. >> I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers >> and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to >> LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for >> any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, >> but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and >> independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, >> no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, >> they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the >> world around me because I can't see. I never really had >> age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my >> skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my >> parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between >> them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a >> few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can >> see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing >> with their lives. >> I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the >> NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to >> live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also >> receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you >> can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess >> the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of >> living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect >> and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else >> thinks. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: >>> I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. >>> As >>> far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS >>> program >>> I believe. >>> You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. >>> I wish you all the best. >>> >>> >>> Hope Paulos >>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your >>>> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however >>>> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our >>>> actions and our lives. >>>> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say in >>>> an >>>> airport there always people there who can help you. The training center >>>> is >>>> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent >>>> skills. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Where there is a will, there is a way. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>>>> words >>>>> >>>>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To >>>>> those >>>>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training >>>>> anyway, >>>>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd >>>>> probably >>>>> need >>>>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and >>>>> mobility >>>>> skills, I would need their help to get there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>>>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>>>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>>>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>>>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>>>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>>>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house >>>>>>> training >>>>>>> from the lighthouse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living >>>>>>> skills. >>>>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery >>>>>>> fashion >>>>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>>>>> anything. >>>>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and cook. >>>>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> She says things like >>>>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >>>>> things. >>>>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my laundry >>>>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to >>>>>>> cook? >>>>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not >>>>>>> lazy. >>>>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >>>>> skills. >>>>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll be >>>>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >>>>> astray. >>>>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they can >>>>>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a lost >>>>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and feels >>>>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her >>>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>>>>> et >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 05:58:59 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 01:58:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: I completely understand having overprotective parents who just want to do everything for you, but at some point, you just got to take control of the situation and try things on your own. If you don't know how to do something, ask other people how they do things or use the internet. I honestly am confused about what you mean by not knowing the lingo of recipes. ... They give you step-by-step instructions on the amounts of ingredients and exactly how to form the food. If the harder recipes intimidate you, start with something small. If you don't try, you're never going to learn. I grew up in an Asian household where my mom did absolutely everything for me--cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc--because she was living under the cultural perception that blind people couldn't do anything on their own. It was extremely stifling for me so I started exploring the kitchen on my own. I had a rehab teacher from the state agency com eout and walk me through the appliances in the kitchen, how to use a knife, how to wash dishes. These things took time, but she was with me only an hour here and there. During those periods, I had to practice and keep up with the skills. My mom was really freaked out that I was using knives and boiling things on the stove, but she respected me enough to let me try. Knives and stoves are scary no doubt, and you're probably going to hurt yourself cutting or whatever, it's part of the learning process. I don't think there should be any excuses for you from trying any of these things a thome. you mentioned that your dad is supportive, why not ask him to watch you do something and if you are really about to hurt yourself, then he can stop you. Others have given you advice about attending a training center and I hope it happens for you, but why waste your time not experimenting on your own before you get there. Minh On 4/25/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Ashley, > > Specifically to cooking, I can say that it is possible to learn how to > cook on your own. I am in the process of doing it myself. Growing > up, my mom was pretty supportive and taught me most things (how to > take care of myself, how to label things with tactile markers (because > I didn't actually get that from the state), and other things), but she > did the adaptive stuff just with me telling her how I needed it done. > I understood my mom was not a rehab professional, so it took my > guidance to get things like our digital washing machine labeled so I > could work the digital thing. Sometimes, I had to pester her and > remind her that in order to do laundry, per say, I needed the machine > labeled. My mom also had a tendency to get a little impatient if I > had trouble catching on to her labeling systems or whatever, and again > I had to just understand she wasn't a pro at this. > > The same thing happened with cooking. I was really interested in > learning to cook with the oven and stove, but didn't know where any of > the buttons were or how to do anything. Aside from a few batches of > cookies, and one pan of lasagna which I made with a lot of her > assistance, I never cooked with anything other than the microwave > until this year of college when I had a kitchen in my apartment. > > There are a few basic things you can just learn by trying yourself. > I'd start with the stove rather than the oven, because personally that > worked well for me. Of course, some stove and oven controls are > better than others, and that was certainly the case between my home > and apartment stoves (my apartment stove actually has dials for the > burners with a tactile marking already on them, and they click into > the different places so it works well without any modification). I > started boiling things, because those are very hard to screw up. > Rice, pasta, and hard boiling eggs are very simple. You just put them > in a pot of water. Rice and pasta you add once the water is boiling, > but if you make eggs make sure you put eggs in before boiling water, > because obviously the water will be hot once you turn the burner on. > > You can also try making simple things in a skillet. Grilled cheese is > really easy. (take bread, put some butter on it, add cheese and > another slice of bread, cook on medium and flip till both sides are > toasted). It is quick, and you should be able to smell when it is > time to flip. > > If you want to try the oven, cookies are actually really easy. Making > them from scratch is not hard at all, you just add everything for the > dough in a bowl, roll it into balls, and place equidistantly on the > cookie sheet. Place in a pre-heated oven at 350 degrees for about 10 > to 15 minutes, and take the cookies out. Again, you should be able to > smell when they're done pretty easily. If you're not sure, don't be > afraid to take them out and poke them with something. I've let them > cool for a minute and used my finger before, or you can also use a > fork. All you want to see is if the cookies are still gooey. If they > are, pop them back in for a few more minutes. > > It is really possible for a blind person to learn to cook through > trial and error. YOu might burn a few things at first, but once you > get the hang of it you can start working your way up to the meats. > > Also, remember that even sighted people cook with the microwave. What > I do when I make a spaghetti dinner for example, is cook the pasta on > the stove, and pop the sauce and the meatballs into the microwave for > a few minutes. It is perfectly fine to buy pre-formed meatballs and > cook them like that, since that is not a blindness thing. If you want > to make them yourself though, all you have to do is get some ground > beef, form it into balls, and place them in a dish like a pyrex so it > can cook in the oven. They shouldn't take long to cook that way > either. The sauce can also be heated on the stove, but again, > probably more because I'm a college student than I'm a blind student, > I take the easy way out and use the microwave to speed up the process. > > Hope this helps at least in this area. It's really not as scary as it > seems once you start experimenting with the oven and stove. > > On 4/25/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> joshua, >> Yeah, I know what you mean about the transit; we have some paratransit >> but >> its limited sometimes due to the main bus schedule. >> Its sadly something we deal with til we move out I suppose. I hope you >> get >> what you need in training. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Hendrickson >> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:08 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >> words >> >> Hi to all. Arielle, I enjoyed your post. As a blind adult living at >> home, I understand about relying on parents for things. You are >> correct when you talked about sighted people living where there is >> little paratransit. I live in a small town, with no transit system, >> so would have to rely on a family member to take me different places. >> ?Ashley, I hope you can go to an NFB training center if that is your >> choice. I had to talk my state rehab service in to just cending me to >> the instate training center in Chicago. I'm also looking forward to >> going to ICREWOOD not just because of the training, but to get away >> from home for a few months. I know how neat NFB training centers >> sound, but for me, I just didn't want to fight and have to wait for >> months and months for my state in Illinois to possibly aprove me for >> training at an NFB CENTER. Ashley, having a mom like yours sounds >> difficult, but you need to do what is best for you regarding training. >> You need to live your own life. Good luck. Thanks everyone for a >> great list. I always find it very interesting reading the different >> posts. >> >> On 4/24/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> >>> Thanks. I think your post raises some good points and I do agree that >>> parents can be protective coupled with the fact that yes indeed >>> the transportation is a lot to be desired where sighted couples tend to >>> live. We live in suburbs. The metro subway is extending near us but >>> still >>> >>> I >>> >>> would need a cab; its approx 3 miles to the new metro so I need a ride >>> via >>> cab or family to get there. Still it will augment my travel options once >>> its >>> >>> here in about four months. >>> This I really look forward to because it knocks out one of the biggest >>> excuses for not using the rail system more; its inconvenient to get >>> there >>> having to not only attempt to park in the crowded lot, but also take >>> like >>> 25 minutes to get there. >>> >>> I have access to paratransit now which I sometimes use like to get to >>> the >>> mall I know where my gym is. >>> You're right that only training can go so far and I do agree that you >>> have >>> >>> to experiment some, but still if you don't have a basis for recipe >>> language >>> >>> or you cannot tell when your meat is cooked, you don't have a safe or >>> adaquate foundation to cook. >>> >>> As for my mom, she is overprotective and overlooks skills I need. I'll >>> never change her mind so I guess I should just learn what I can and go >>> on. >>> I'll just try and ignore the negativity rather than argue. >>> >>> I totally feel what you're saying about jobs. When I sought internships, >>> I >>> came back home from the freedom I had in the dorm setting. >>> Here I relied on my parents for transit to the job interviews and even >>> to >>> work in the morning but did use the metro to go part way home and got a >>> ride >>> >>> from the metro. >>> Since they really did not want to fight rush hour traffic on a huge busy >>> road we nick name the belt way around here, I was easily able to >>> advocate >>> >>> to >>> >>> them I'd do the metro route fine and since it required little outdoor >>> travel, I think >>> even my mom was okay with it. >>> >>> I also relied on them for basic necessities like any college student >>> would; >>> >>> I did not have the money to buy my own work clothes or buy my metro >>> fares. >>> So, they had to support me in my work related expenses in terms of >>> dressing >>> >>> and transit. I am actually pretty grateful since my dad did support me >>> also >>> >>> in filling out paperwork for my federal internships. I had to have a >>> scribe >>> >>> as there was no way >>> to do it otherwise. This also helped me in a way for the rest of the >>> summer >>> >>> to have income and when in school, I had extra money to do as I pleased. >>> You also implied that many young blind adults may find their >>> independence >>> being curtailed between college and work, and I agree. >>> Its unfortunate that not all parents show us things and embrace the >>> abilities of blind people. They equate lack of sight with lack of >>> ability, >>> and perhaps there is no way to change this. >>> >>> I'm glad you had a plan that worked for you and I think you have a job >>> now >>> which is excellent given our economy. >>> Well, nice food for thought. >>> Oh, rent being paid for by rehab, a pipe dream. >>> Ashley >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:20 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>> words >>> >>> Hi Ashley, >>> >>> First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You >>> could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important >>> to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually >>> higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am >>> pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB >>> centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you >>> have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind >>> person would probably advance your skills. >>> Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test >>> run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the >>> end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center >>> when you first arrive. >>> >>> Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she >>> is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually >>> all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve >>> everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I >>> believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted >>> parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally >>> developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at >>> the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, >>> still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a >>> tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure >>> out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already >>> know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you >>> won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that >>> knowledge into action. >>> >>> The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and >>> real-world experience living away from family. >>> Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents >>> is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind >>> that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and >>> diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that >>> most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly >>> understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents >>> who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best >>> possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult >>> to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, >>> add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your >>> parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it >>> can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most >>> sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible >>> public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is >>> struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related >>> activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing >>> parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this >>> sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder >>> if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent >>> for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with >>> good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and >>> self-reliance. >>> I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers >>> and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to >>> LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for >>> any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, >>> but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and >>> independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, >>> no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, >>> they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the >>> world around me because I can't see. I never really had >>> age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my >>> skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my >>> parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between >>> them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a >>> few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can >>> see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing >>> with their lives. >>> I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the >>> NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to >>> live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also >>> receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you >>> can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess >>> the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of >>> living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect >>> and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else >>> thinks. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: >>>> I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. >>>> As >>>> far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS >>>> program >>>> I believe. >>>> You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. >>>> I wish you all the best. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hope Paulos >>>> >>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your >>>>> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however >>>>> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our >>>>> actions and our lives. >>>>> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say >>>>> in >>>>> an >>>>> airport there always people there who can help you. The training >>>>> center >>>>> is >>>>> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent >>>>> skills. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Where there is a will, there is a way. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>>>>> words >>>>>> >>>>>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To >>>>>> those >>>>>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training >>>>>> anyway, >>>>>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd >>>>>> probably >>>>>> need >>>>>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and >>>>>> mobility >>>>>> skills, I would need their help to get there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>>>>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>>>>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>>>>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>>>>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>>>>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>>>>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>>>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house >>>>>>>> training >>>>>>>> from the lighthouse. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>>>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>>>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>>>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>>>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living >>>>>>>> skills. >>>>>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>>>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery >>>>>>>> fashion >>>>>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>>>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>>>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>>>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>>>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>>>>>> anything. >>>>>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>>>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>>>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and >>>>>>>> cook. >>>>>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>>>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> She says things like >>>>>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >>>>>> things. >>>>>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my >>>>>>>> laundry >>>>>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>>>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>>>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to >>>>>>>> cook? >>>>>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not >>>>>>>> lazy. >>>>>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>>>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>>>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>>>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>>>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >>>>>> skills. >>>>>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>>>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>>>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >>>>>> astray. >>>>>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>>>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>>>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>>>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a >>>>>>>> lost >>>>>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>>>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and >>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her >>>>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>>>>>> et >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From kaybaycar at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 06:02:53 2014 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 01:02:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, I understand where you're coming from here as I have had to deal with similar things. I will tell you honestly here that moving out was the best thing I ever did for myself in terms of my relationship with my parents. Arielle is completely right. Even if your parents understand blindness or believe that we can do most things, there will always be that one thing they can't get past. Combine that with the desire to help us and their impatience when we're not doing something fast enough, and you've got a dangerous mixture. I, like Arielle, find that even a few days living with my parents diminishes my confidence in my skills. My father tends to do things for me-finding things in the kitchen, laundry, buying all the groceries, and he doesn't think that I recognize when I need help. It was easy then to believe that I couldn't do a lot for myself. I believed doing laundry, something simple and even fun, was too difficult and would take me too long because I'm blind. My mother wanted me to learn and would often teach me things, but she had little patience for me learning. I actually discovered that getting her help was a lot easier over the phone when she wasn't actually there to do it for me but instead had to explain how to clean a spill out of the carpet or whatever. That way, I could be sincerely grateful for her help and not feel like I couldn't do it. Anyway, I, like the others, would recommend an NFB training center because they challenge you, so even if you have good skills, it seems they will work with you. From what I understand, they can also work with you on job skills and taylor other parts of training to your individual needs. That's why I would want to go to an NFB center. Hearing that negativity does really take a tole and reduces confidence. I know that even living with my more positive parent is difficult... Staying with the more negative one makes me unhappy as well. So, Ashley, I hope you find the courage to move out or attend an NFB center. I think you would find a world of difference and perhaps even develop a better relationship with your parents. On 4/25/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Ashley, > > Specifically to cooking, I can say that it is possible to learn how to > cook on your own. I am in the process of doing it myself. Growing > up, my mom was pretty supportive and taught me most things (how to > take care of myself, how to label things with tactile markers (because > I didn't actually get that from the state), and other things), but she > did the adaptive stuff just with me telling her how I needed it done. > I understood my mom was not a rehab professional, so it took my > guidance to get things like our digital washing machine labeled so I > could work the digital thing. Sometimes, I had to pester her and > remind her that in order to do laundry, per say, I needed the machine > labeled. My mom also had a tendency to get a little impatient if I > had trouble catching on to her labeling systems or whatever, and again > I had to just understand she wasn't a pro at this. > > The same thing happened with cooking. I was really interested in > learning to cook with the oven and stove, but didn't know where any of > the buttons were or how to do anything. Aside from a few batches of > cookies, and one pan of lasagna which I made with a lot of her > assistance, I never cooked with anything other than the microwave > until this year of college when I had a kitchen in my apartment. > > There are a few basic things you can just learn by trying yourself. > I'd start with the stove rather than the oven, because personally that > worked well for me. Of course, some stove and oven controls are > better than others, and that was certainly the case between my home > and apartment stoves (my apartment stove actually has dials for the > burners with a tactile marking already on them, and they click into > the different places so it works well without any modification). I > started boiling things, because those are very hard to screw up. > Rice, pasta, and hard boiling eggs are very simple. You just put them > in a pot of water. Rice and pasta you add once the water is boiling, > but if you make eggs make sure you put eggs in before boiling water, > because obviously the water will be hot once you turn the burner on. > > You can also try making simple things in a skillet. Grilled cheese is > really easy. (take bread, put some butter on it, add cheese and > another slice of bread, cook on medium and flip till both sides are > toasted). It is quick, and you should be able to smell when it is > time to flip. > > If you want to try the oven, cookies are actually really easy. Making > them from scratch is not hard at all, you just add everything for the > dough in a bowl, roll it into balls, and place equidistantly on the > cookie sheet. Place in a pre-heated oven at 350 degrees for about 10 > to 15 minutes, and take the cookies out. Again, you should be able to > smell when they're done pretty easily. If you're not sure, don't be > afraid to take them out and poke them with something. I've let them > cool for a minute and used my finger before, or you can also use a > fork. All you want to see is if the cookies are still gooey. If they > are, pop them back in for a few more minutes. > > It is really possible for a blind person to learn to cook through > trial and error. YOu might burn a few things at first, but once you > get the hang of it you can start working your way up to the meats. > > Also, remember that even sighted people cook with the microwave. What > I do when I make a spaghetti dinner for example, is cook the pasta on > the stove, and pop the sauce and the meatballs into the microwave for > a few minutes. It is perfectly fine to buy pre-formed meatballs and > cook them like that, since that is not a blindness thing. If you want > to make them yourself though, all you have to do is get some ground > beef, form it into balls, and place them in a dish like a pyrex so it > can cook in the oven. They shouldn't take long to cook that way > either. The sauce can also be heated on the stove, but again, > probably more because I'm a college student than I'm a blind student, > I take the easy way out and use the microwave to speed up the process. > > Hope this helps at least in this area. It's really not as scary as it > seems once you start experimenting with the oven and stove. > > On 4/25/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> joshua, >> Yeah, I know what you mean about the transit; we have some paratransit >> but >> its limited sometimes due to the main bus schedule. >> Its sadly something we deal with til we move out I suppose. I hope you >> get >> what you need in training. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Hendrickson >> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:08 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >> words >> >> Hi to all. Arielle, I enjoyed your post. As a blind adult living at >> home, I understand about relying on parents for things. You are >> correct when you talked about sighted people living where there is >> little paratransit. I live in a small town, with no transit system, >> so would have to rely on a family member to take me different places. >> ?Ashley, I hope you can go to an NFB training center if that is your >> choice. I had to talk my state rehab service in to just cending me to >> the instate training center in Chicago. I'm also looking forward to >> going to ICREWOOD not just because of the training, but to get away >> from home for a few months. I know how neat NFB training centers >> sound, but for me, I just didn't want to fight and have to wait for >> months and months for my state in Illinois to possibly aprove me for >> training at an NFB CENTER. Ashley, having a mom like yours sounds >> difficult, but you need to do what is best for you regarding training. >> You need to live your own life. Good luck. Thanks everyone for a >> great list. I always find it very interesting reading the different >> posts. >> >> On 4/24/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> >>> Thanks. I think your post raises some good points and I do agree that >>> parents can be protective coupled with the fact that yes indeed >>> the transportation is a lot to be desired where sighted couples tend to >>> live. We live in suburbs. The metro subway is extending near us but >>> still >>> >>> I >>> >>> would need a cab; its approx 3 miles to the new metro so I need a ride >>> via >>> cab or family to get there. Still it will augment my travel options once >>> its >>> >>> here in about four months. >>> This I really look forward to because it knocks out one of the biggest >>> excuses for not using the rail system more; its inconvenient to get >>> there >>> having to not only attempt to park in the crowded lot, but also take >>> like >>> 25 minutes to get there. >>> >>> I have access to paratransit now which I sometimes use like to get to >>> the >>> mall I know where my gym is. >>> You're right that only training can go so far and I do agree that you >>> have >>> >>> to experiment some, but still if you don't have a basis for recipe >>> language >>> >>> or you cannot tell when your meat is cooked, you don't have a safe or >>> adaquate foundation to cook. >>> >>> As for my mom, she is overprotective and overlooks skills I need. I'll >>> never change her mind so I guess I should just learn what I can and go >>> on. >>> I'll just try and ignore the negativity rather than argue. >>> >>> I totally feel what you're saying about jobs. When I sought internships, >>> I >>> came back home from the freedom I had in the dorm setting. >>> Here I relied on my parents for transit to the job interviews and even >>> to >>> work in the morning but did use the metro to go part way home and got a >>> ride >>> >>> from the metro. >>> Since they really did not want to fight rush hour traffic on a huge busy >>> road we nick name the belt way around here, I was easily able to >>> advocate >>> >>> to >>> >>> them I'd do the metro route fine and since it required little outdoor >>> travel, I think >>> even my mom was okay with it. >>> >>> I also relied on them for basic necessities like any college student >>> would; >>> >>> I did not have the money to buy my own work clothes or buy my metro >>> fares. >>> So, they had to support me in my work related expenses in terms of >>> dressing >>> >>> and transit. I am actually pretty grateful since my dad did support me >>> also >>> >>> in filling out paperwork for my federal internships. I had to have a >>> scribe >>> >>> as there was no way >>> to do it otherwise. This also helped me in a way for the rest of the >>> summer >>> >>> to have income and when in school, I had extra money to do as I pleased. >>> You also implied that many young blind adults may find their >>> independence >>> being curtailed between college and work, and I agree. >>> Its unfortunate that not all parents show us things and embrace the >>> abilities of blind people. They equate lack of sight with lack of >>> ability, >>> and perhaps there is no way to change this. >>> >>> I'm glad you had a plan that worked for you and I think you have a job >>> now >>> which is excellent given our economy. >>> Well, nice food for thought. >>> Oh, rent being paid for by rehab, a pipe dream. >>> Ashley >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:20 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>> words >>> >>> Hi Ashley, >>> >>> First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You >>> could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important >>> to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually >>> higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am >>> pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB >>> centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you >>> have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind >>> person would probably advance your skills. >>> Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test >>> run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the >>> end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center >>> when you first arrive. >>> >>> Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she >>> is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually >>> all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve >>> everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I >>> believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted >>> parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally >>> developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at >>> the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, >>> still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a >>> tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure >>> out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already >>> know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you >>> won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that >>> knowledge into action. >>> >>> The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and >>> real-world experience living away from family. >>> Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents >>> is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind >>> that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and >>> diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that >>> most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly >>> understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents >>> who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best >>> possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult >>> to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, >>> add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your >>> parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it >>> can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most >>> sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible >>> public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is >>> struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related >>> activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing >>> parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this >>> sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder >>> if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent >>> for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with >>> good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and >>> self-reliance. >>> I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers >>> and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to >>> LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for >>> any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, >>> but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and >>> independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, >>> no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, >>> they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the >>> world around me because I can't see. I never really had >>> age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my >>> skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my >>> parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between >>> them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a >>> few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can >>> see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing >>> with their lives. >>> I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the >>> NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to >>> live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also >>> receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you >>> can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess >>> the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of >>> living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect >>> and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else >>> thinks. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: >>>> I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. >>>> As >>>> far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS >>>> program >>>> I believe. >>>> You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. >>>> I wish you all the best. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hope Paulos >>>> >>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your >>>>> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however >>>>> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our >>>>> actions and our lives. >>>>> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say >>>>> in >>>>> an >>>>> airport there always people there who can help you. The training >>>>> center >>>>> is >>>>> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent >>>>> skills. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Where there is a will, there is a way. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>>>>> words >>>>>> >>>>>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To >>>>>> those >>>>>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training >>>>>> anyway, >>>>>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd >>>>>> probably >>>>>> need >>>>>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and >>>>>> mobility >>>>>> skills, I would need their help to get there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>>>>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>>>>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>>>>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>>>>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>>>>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>>>>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>>>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house >>>>>>>> training >>>>>>>> from the lighthouse. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>>>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>>>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>>>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>>>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living >>>>>>>> skills. >>>>>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>>>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery >>>>>>>> fashion >>>>>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>>>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>>>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>>>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>>>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>>>>>> anything. >>>>>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>>>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>>>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and >>>>>>>> cook. >>>>>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>>>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> She says things like >>>>>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >>>>>> things. >>>>>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my >>>>>>>> laundry >>>>>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>>>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>>>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to >>>>>>>> cook? >>>>>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not >>>>>>>> lazy. >>>>>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>>>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>>>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>>>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>>>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >>>>>> skills. >>>>>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>>>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>>>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >>>>>> astray. >>>>>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>>>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>>>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>>>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a >>>>>>>> lost >>>>>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>>>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and >>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her >>>>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>>>>>> et >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Apr 25 06:05:22 2014 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 02:05:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5359FB22.20901@tysdomain.com> I think I learned how to cook hamburgers and my grandma or mom occasionally gets a call from me with me asking questions. I'll never forget my grandpa leaving and making sure I knew where the fire extinguisher (which probably doesn't even work) was... just in case. You just need to read what they say. There's not to much lingo. If it says thinly slice your potatos, well, you thinly slice the potatos. If there's some fancy kitchen term you need to look up (blanching etc), just go google it before you start cooking. Everything is going to be as hard as you make it. If you always find negatives, you probably won't ever escape that box and it doesn't matter if the best teacher in the world teaches you. You need your own motivation and at least some desire to go try things out. If you have actual concerns, try to think through them and find ways to solve them. On 4/25/2014 1:58 AM, minh ha wrote: > I completely understand having overprotective parents who just want to > do everything for you, but at some point, you just got to take control > of the situation and try things on your own. If you don't know how to > do something, ask other people how they do things or use the internet. > I honestly am confused about what you mean by not knowing the lingo of > recipes. ... They give you step-by-step instructions on the amounts of > ingredients and exactly how to form the food. If the harder recipes > intimidate you, start with something small. If you don't try, you're > never going to learn. > > I grew up in an Asian household where my mom did absolutely everything > for me--cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc--because she was living under > the cultural perception that blind people couldn't do anything on > their own. It was extremely stifling for me so I started exploring the > kitchen on my own. I had a rehab teacher from the state agency com > eout and walk me through the appliances in the kitchen, how to use a > knife, how to wash dishes. These things took time, but she was with me > only an hour here and there. During those periods, I had to practice > and keep up with the skills. My mom was really freaked out that I was > using knives and boiling things on the stove, but she respected me > enough to let me try. Knives and stoves are scary no doubt, and you're > probably going to hurt yourself cutting or whatever, it's part of the > learning process. I don't think there should be any excuses for you > from trying any of these things a thome. you mentioned that your dad > is supportive, why not ask him to watch you do something and if you > are really about to hurt yourself, then he can stop you. > > Others have given you advice about attending a training center and I > hope it happens for you, but why waste your time not experimenting on > your own before you get there. > > Minh > > On 4/25/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi Ashley, >> >> Specifically to cooking, I can say that it is possible to learn how to >> cook on your own. I am in the process of doing it myself. Growing >> up, my mom was pretty supportive and taught me most things (how to >> take care of myself, how to label things with tactile markers (because >> I didn't actually get that from the state), and other things), but she >> did the adaptive stuff just with me telling her how I needed it done. >> I understood my mom was not a rehab professional, so it took my >> guidance to get things like our digital washing machine labeled so I >> could work the digital thing. Sometimes, I had to pester her and >> remind her that in order to do laundry, per say, I needed the machine >> labeled. My mom also had a tendency to get a little impatient if I >> had trouble catching on to her labeling systems or whatever, and again >> I had to just understand she wasn't a pro at this. >> >> The same thing happened with cooking. I was really interested in >> learning to cook with the oven and stove, but didn't know where any of >> the buttons were or how to do anything. Aside from a few batches of >> cookies, and one pan of lasagna which I made with a lot of her >> assistance, I never cooked with anything other than the microwave >> until this year of college when I had a kitchen in my apartment. >> >> There are a few basic things you can just learn by trying yourself. >> I'd start with the stove rather than the oven, because personally that >> worked well for me. Of course, some stove and oven controls are >> better than others, and that was certainly the case between my home >> and apartment stoves (my apartment stove actually has dials for the >> burners with a tactile marking already on them, and they click into >> the different places so it works well without any modification). I >> started boiling things, because those are very hard to screw up. >> Rice, pasta, and hard boiling eggs are very simple. You just put them >> in a pot of water. Rice and pasta you add once the water is boiling, >> but if you make eggs make sure you put eggs in before boiling water, >> because obviously the water will be hot once you turn the burner on. >> >> You can also try making simple things in a skillet. Grilled cheese is >> really easy. (take bread, put some butter on it, add cheese and >> another slice of bread, cook on medium and flip till both sides are >> toasted). It is quick, and you should be able to smell when it is >> time to flip. >> >> If you want to try the oven, cookies are actually really easy. Making >> them from scratch is not hard at all, you just add everything for the >> dough in a bowl, roll it into balls, and place equidistantly on the >> cookie sheet. Place in a pre-heated oven at 350 degrees for about 10 >> to 15 minutes, and take the cookies out. Again, you should be able to >> smell when they're done pretty easily. If you're not sure, don't be >> afraid to take them out and poke them with something. I've let them >> cool for a minute and used my finger before, or you can also use a >> fork. All you want to see is if the cookies are still gooey. If they >> are, pop them back in for a few more minutes. >> >> It is really possible for a blind person to learn to cook through >> trial and error. YOu might burn a few things at first, but once you >> get the hang of it you can start working your way up to the meats. >> >> Also, remember that even sighted people cook with the microwave. What >> I do when I make a spaghetti dinner for example, is cook the pasta on >> the stove, and pop the sauce and the meatballs into the microwave for >> a few minutes. It is perfectly fine to buy pre-formed meatballs and >> cook them like that, since that is not a blindness thing. If you want >> to make them yourself though, all you have to do is get some ground >> beef, form it into balls, and place them in a dish like a pyrex so it >> can cook in the oven. They shouldn't take long to cook that way >> either. The sauce can also be heated on the stove, but again, >> probably more because I'm a college student than I'm a blind student, >> I take the easy way out and use the microwave to speed up the process. >> >> Hope this helps at least in this area. It's really not as scary as it >> seems once you start experimenting with the oven and stove. >> >> On 4/25/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> joshua, >>> Yeah, I know what you mean about the transit; we have some paratransit >>> but >>> its limited sometimes due to the main bus schedule. >>> Its sadly something we deal with til we move out I suppose. I hope you >>> get >>> what you need in training. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joshua Hendrickson >>> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:08 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>> words >>> >>> Hi to all. Arielle, I enjoyed your post. As a blind adult living at >>> home, I understand about relying on parents for things. You are >>> correct when you talked about sighted people living where there is >>> little paratransit. I live in a small town, with no transit system, >>> so would have to rely on a family member to take me different places. >>> ?Ashley, I hope you can go to an NFB training center if that is your >>> choice. I had to talk my state rehab service in to just cending me to >>> the instate training center in Chicago. I'm also looking forward to >>> going to ICREWOOD not just because of the training, but to get away >>> from home for a few months. I know how neat NFB training centers >>> sound, but for me, I just didn't want to fight and have to wait for >>> months and months for my state in Illinois to possibly aprove me for >>> training at an NFB CENTER. Ashley, having a mom like yours sounds >>> difficult, but you need to do what is best for you regarding training. >>> You need to live your own life. Good luck. Thanks everyone for a >>> great list. I always find it very interesting reading the different >>> posts. >>> >>> On 4/24/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> >>>> Thanks. I think your post raises some good points and I do agree that >>>> parents can be protective coupled with the fact that yes indeed >>>> the transportation is a lot to be desired where sighted couples tend to >>>> live. We live in suburbs. The metro subway is extending near us but >>>> still >>>> >>>> I >>>> >>>> would need a cab; its approx 3 miles to the new metro so I need a ride >>>> via >>>> cab or family to get there. Still it will augment my travel options once >>>> its >>>> >>>> here in about four months. >>>> This I really look forward to because it knocks out one of the biggest >>>> excuses for not using the rail system more; its inconvenient to get >>>> there >>>> having to not only attempt to park in the crowded lot, but also take >>>> like >>>> 25 minutes to get there. >>>> >>>> I have access to paratransit now which I sometimes use like to get to >>>> the >>>> mall I know where my gym is. >>>> You're right that only training can go so far and I do agree that you >>>> have >>>> >>>> to experiment some, but still if you don't have a basis for recipe >>>> language >>>> >>>> or you cannot tell when your meat is cooked, you don't have a safe or >>>> adaquate foundation to cook. >>>> >>>> As for my mom, she is overprotective and overlooks skills I need. I'll >>>> never change her mind so I guess I should just learn what I can and go >>>> on. >>>> I'll just try and ignore the negativity rather than argue. >>>> >>>> I totally feel what you're saying about jobs. When I sought internships, >>>> I >>>> came back home from the freedom I had in the dorm setting. >>>> Here I relied on my parents for transit to the job interviews and even >>>> to >>>> work in the morning but did use the metro to go part way home and got a >>>> ride >>>> >>>> from the metro. >>>> Since they really did not want to fight rush hour traffic on a huge busy >>>> road we nick name the belt way around here, I was easily able to >>>> advocate >>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>> them I'd do the metro route fine and since it required little outdoor >>>> travel, I think >>>> even my mom was okay with it. >>>> >>>> I also relied on them for basic necessities like any college student >>>> would; >>>> >>>> I did not have the money to buy my own work clothes or buy my metro >>>> fares. >>>> So, they had to support me in my work related expenses in terms of >>>> dressing >>>> >>>> and transit. I am actually pretty grateful since my dad did support me >>>> also >>>> >>>> in filling out paperwork for my federal internships. I had to have a >>>> scribe >>>> >>>> as there was no way >>>> to do it otherwise. This also helped me in a way for the rest of the >>>> summer >>>> >>>> to have income and when in school, I had extra money to do as I pleased. >>>> You also implied that many young blind adults may find their >>>> independence >>>> being curtailed between college and work, and I agree. >>>> Its unfortunate that not all parents show us things and embrace the >>>> abilities of blind people. They equate lack of sight with lack of >>>> ability, >>>> and perhaps there is no way to change this. >>>> >>>> I'm glad you had a plan that worked for you and I think you have a job >>>> now >>>> which is excellent given our economy. >>>> Well, nice food for thought. >>>> Oh, rent being paid for by rehab, a pipe dream. >>>> Ashley >>>> Ashley >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 9:20 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>>> words >>>> >>>> Hi Ashley, >>>> >>>> First, I think you have already received quite a bit of training. You >>>> could probably benefit from getting more, but I think it's important >>>> to ensure that whatever new training you get is actually >>>> higher-quality than the training you have already received. I am >>>> pretty sure that WSB would be a step backward in this regard. The NFB >>>> centers, however, could give you more rigorous training than what you >>>> have already gotten. Even just working informally with another blind >>>> person would probably advance your skills. >>>> Have you thought about going to an NFB center just for a brief test >>>> run? You could go for a month and, if you don't like it, leave at the >>>> end of the month. You don't have to make a commitment to the center >>>> when you first arrive. >>>> >>>> Second, while I don't agree with your mom's approach, I do think she >>>> is right that even the best training can only go so far. Eventually >>>> all of us need to be in the real world using our skills to solve >>>> everyday problems in order for those skills to really be effective. I >>>> believe that for many blind adults, living under the roof of a sighted >>>> parent can be extremely restrictive and prevent skills from naturally >>>> developing. Even if that parent is very supportive and empowering, at >>>> the end of the day the parent is still putting food on the table, >>>> still available to provide travel assistance, etc. One can learn a >>>> tremendous amount just by living independently and having to figure >>>> out the best way to meet one's real needs. I suspect that you already >>>> know a lot more than you think about how to care for yourself. But you >>>> won't find out how much you know until you are able to put that >>>> knowledge into action. >>>> >>>> The NFB centers are great because they provide both training and >>>> real-world experience living away from family. >>>> Again, I am starting to think that living at home with sighted parents >>>> is one of the worst places for a young blind adult to be. Keep in mind >>>> that it's hard for any parent to think of the baby they nursed and >>>> diapered as a real mature adult. Then add on top of that the fact that >>>> most sighted people really don't get blindness at all or truly >>>> understand how we do things, and the result is that we have parents >>>> who will always infantilize us on some level. Even in the best >>>> possible situation, it can be incredibly difficult for a blind adult >>>> to explore real self-sufficiency while under a parent's control. Then, >>>> add to that any normal human failings, prejudices or challenges your >>>> parents may have, financial challenges, marital stress, etc. and it >>>> can be a pretty crappy situation. And then finally, it seems like most >>>> sighted couples our parents' age tend to live in places with terrible >>>> public transportation. This means the blind adult living at home is >>>> struggling to get to job interviews and other career-related >>>> activities and often has to rely on the aforementioned infantilizing >>>> parents for basic necessities. Am I exaggerating here or does this >>>> sound about right to those of you living at home? I seriously wonder >>>> if VR could improve their success rate if they helped subsidize rent >>>> for young blind clients so they can live on their own in places with >>>> good transit and natural opportunities to develop confidence and >>>> self-reliance. >>>> I moved into the dorms when I was 18 and only came home for summers >>>> and breaks during college, and then as soon as I graduated I went to >>>> LCB and then to Boulder. I can't imagine myself ever moving back for >>>> any extended period of time. My parents and I get along fairly well, >>>> but even when I just visit them for a few days, my self-confidence and >>>> independence always takes a hit. It's clear to me that on some level, >>>> no matter how much education I get or how prestigious of a job I have, >>>> they will always see me as lacking in basic agency or awareness of the >>>> world around me because I can't see. I never really had >>>> age-appropriate opportunities to learn about life or to expand my >>>> skills until I was out of their house. Again, I love and respect my >>>> parents a lot and think they're great people, but the dynamic between >>>> them and me just isn't one to support my independence. I also have a >>>> few different blind friends who have successfully moved out and I can >>>> see the difference in their confidence and the things they are doing >>>> with their lives. >>>> I know money is a huge obstacle for many of us, but remember that the >>>> NFB centers are fully paid for by rehab, giving you an opportunity to >>>> live rent-free away from home for up to nine months while also >>>> receiving excellent training you can translate into a job. And, you >>>> can often find relatively inexpensive room-sharing options. I guess >>>> the first step is just to recognize that you are not only capable of >>>> living on your own, but I think you are entitled to the self-respect >>>> and independence it can give you, regardless of what anybody else >>>> thinks. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/24/14, Hope Paulos wrote: >>>>> I would tell her you want to go to a mall and show her what you can do. >>>>> As >>>>> far as WSB, they will teach you daily living skills before the IRS >>>>> program >>>>> I believe. >>>>> You just need to show your Mom you can do these things. >>>>> I wish you all the best. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hope Paulos >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:14 PM, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, I don't think anyone has ever advocated to "screw what your >>>>>> parents say "and do whatever you want. There does come a point however >>>>>> where as adults we have to start start taking responsibility for our >>>>>> actions and our lives. >>>>>> If you wanted to go to training center and you needed assistance say >>>>>> in >>>>>> an >>>>>> airport there always people there who can help you. The training >>>>>> center >>>>>> is >>>>>> also not expecting that you're calling to come in with excellent >>>>>> skills. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:58 PM, "justin williams" >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where there is a will, there is a way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andy >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:51 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative >>>>>>> words >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Honestly, I'm in the same boat as Ashley, except I'm in college. To >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> that say to basically screw what your parents tell you, get training >>>>>>> anyway, >>>>>>> I 100% agree. Problem is, how to get to an NFB center? You'd >>>>>>> probably >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> to fly (I would, at least), and having basically no orientation and >>>>>>> mobility >>>>>>> skills, I would need their help to get there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/24/14, anjelinac at att.net wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Ashley, as many other people have said it is up to your mom to >>>>>>>> change her attitude and perceptions on blindness. All you can do is >>>>>>>> work on yourself and give yourself the opportunities you need and >>>>>>>> deserve. I think the benefit of and Nfb training center is that you >>>>>>>> have to take all the classes. The classes can be geared toward your >>>>>>>> skills and abilities, but being able to increase your skills is just >>>>>>>> as good as being able to learn new skills. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am going to mainly vent here. Although I may not attend a nfb >>>>>>>>> center, I feel I should go for some training or get in house >>>>>>>>> training >>>>>>>>> from the lighthouse. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I want training tailored to the classes I need without sleepshades >>>>>>>>> and nfb centers have you take everything. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anyway, I'm very hurt that my mom won't support training. >>>>>>>>> For those who did not read much from me before, I'll say I grew up >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> a middle class family; pretty in tact. While I did receive fairly >>>>>>>>> good academic support to learn braille, large print, how to label >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> organize papers, use a talking calculator, and even some jaws >>>>>>>>> training, I did not receive much training in regard to living >>>>>>>>> skills. >>>>>>>>> I did receive traditional O&M but did get much better O&M training >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> an adult from our state agency. >>>>>>>>> My vr agency instructor taught me in some what of a discovery >>>>>>>>> fashion >>>>>>>>> and she encouraged exploration and had me plan routes. >>>>>>>>> She taught me about our metro system too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do have basic living skills from learning via a rehab teacher who >>>>>>>>> came to our home and attending our state center. but I did not get >>>>>>>>> everything at the state center as ADL was only twice a week. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, when possibly going to WSB for the IRS program came up, mom was >>>>>>>>> negative saying no way I cannot live on my own and how I don't try >>>>>>>>> anything. >>>>>>>>> She never says anything positive to move forward. I don't like the >>>>>>>>> idea of WSB but it was brought up with my new counselor. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> She doesn't support training. She blames me. I'm so tired and hurt >>>>>>>>> she keeps bllaming me. Okay, I cannot simply read a recipe and >>>>>>>>> cook. >>>>>>>>> you have to know how to cut vegies better than I do. You have to >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> how to measure well and cook meat. >>>>>>>>> I've seen recipies and I don't understand the lingo. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> She says things like >>>>>>>>> "oh, you don't need training you had enough. You just need to try >>>>>>> things. >>>>>>>>> You're here often and don't do much." I say I do and I do my >>>>>>>>> laundry >>>>>>>>> and make sandwiches for instance. I said I looked for work myself. >>>>>>>>> I have used and tried to be actuve with the skills I have. >>>>>>>>> "Why don't you look around the kitchen and get recipies and try to >>>>>>>>> cook? >>>>>>>>> you just aren't adventurous. You should do more." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I tell her I don't know how. she just fails to get it. I am not >>>>>>>>> lazy. >>>>>>>>> I'm fairly resourceful; I even taught myself some stuff on the >>>>>>>>> computer. those fs webinars are helpful. >>>>>>>>> When I was on my own in college, I did explore the area and went to >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> few malls on my own. My parents wouldn't support that except for >>>>>>>>> going to the mall where my gym is since they know I had a little >>>>>>>>> orientation to it and I know its layout mostly. So I did use my O&M >>>>>>> skills. >>>>>>>>> When I suggest going places, it seems I often hear from mom, I'll >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> lost and no way I could find my way. Okay, I cannot do outside >>>>>>>>> safely, but indoors there should be no excuse; there are people to >>>>>>>>> gather directions from, and walls around so you can only go so far >>>>>>> astray. >>>>>>>>> Thing is my mother is the least supportive person. Never has she >>>>>>>>> showed me to make a dish and she did not even teach me to tie my >>>>>>>>> shoes. My TVI did the shoe thing. Never has she tried to help me >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> learn anything. Well, she did not help my brothers much but they >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> see others do it via tv or something. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm so tired she blames me when she is the big problem and then to >>>>>>>>> say I don't need more training is worse. Its like to her, I'm a >>>>>>>>> lost >>>>>>>>> case, and even if I'm trained I won't learn and won't try. Not true >>>>>>>>> at all. I've used a lot of skills I learned. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is just so amazing my mom won't support my independence and >>>>>>>>> feels >>>>>>>>> I'm incapable of it. I guess I'll someday move and prove her >>>>>>>>> otherwise. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.n >>>>>>>>> et >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gma >>>>>>>> il.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 06:49:21 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 02:49:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net><000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com><30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net><31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EAAFF5393E049B58B6FCA05B0D08E0A@OwnerPC> Hi Kaiti, I think we have some similarities in our parents. Again, I liked hearing your story and tips without some of the judgements coming from others. My mom does get impatient too. I suppose she is sort of helpful because she did help me relabel the microwave as its labels fell off. they had stuck on for years and years. thanks for your advice. Can you suggest some basic recipes or do you just follow packaged directions? It seems to me most recipes I read online use words assuming you know things; okay; I understand terms bake and preheat. But some baking recipies say things like sift this or cream that. What do you do about measuring? how do you differientiate the measuring utensils? I'll just copy your text in and respond after it. About stoves: Of course, some stove and oven controls are better than others, and that was certainly the case between my home and apartment stoves (my apartment stove actually has dials for the burners with a tactile marking already on them, and they click into the different places so it works well without any modification). I respond: Oh, which type of stove? I did not realize they still made stoves with dials that clicked into places for the temperatures. We have a flat electric stove. I use it for canned food but its hard to center pans and I want one like you described. So, if you know its type, let me know. We use GE appliances. About the boiling: Rice, pasta, and hard boiling eggs are very simple. You just put them in a pot of water. Rice and pasta you add once the water is boiling, but if you make eggs make sure you put eggs in before boiling water, because obviously the water will be hot once you turn the burner on. I respond, do you just feel it to know when its cooked through and then drain it? I love pasta. Yeah, its easy to cook, good point. But how do you keep it from boiling over then if you add the noodles to already boiling water? Do you turn the heat down? To add stuff to pasta, all you'd need is spaghetti or manera sauce. Easy to fix. Does the pre formed meatballs have directions on the package for cooking them? Yeah, all you'd need to do is add sauce and possibly meat balls. So, how much sauce. Do you simply pour some, maybe half a jar into a dish and heat it up? The cool thing is now a days they make some fancy sauces with lots of good tastes so you can have quite a variety of options for sauces. I know potatoes are easy to make. Do you put them in cold water or after its boiling? You have to cut them first I know. Then they can be eaten as slices or mashed with adding some items like butter and milk. I've often wanted to make roasted potatoes. All I know is you throw them on a greased sheet at 350 but I don't know the specifics of what spices to add and if you have to peel them. Maybe I'll look up scalloped potato recipes and see if I understand that. Meats are harder as you have to clean the meat and determine doneness. Even a pretty competent lady at our nfb chapter says she is not as confident in cooking of the blindness skills she has because she doesn't trust her judgement on meats. She is younger than me but lived on her own for several years. True you can time the meats; like chicken is 30 minutes. but still it can vary due to your oven, and unlike baking, there's no toothpick test. I'm glad to hear your cooking adventures are going well. Ashley From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Apr 25 19:48:23 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 15:48:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> Message-ID: <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> Hi Arielle and all, I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with my stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses excel or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she would send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out what I needed to do. However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I need to start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was some trig that would be on the ACT that I would need to know just as a sort of FYI thing to consider, my TVI kept bringing the conversation back to the ACT and math in general, and if she thought I should switch out, although she had previously said that it was just a thing to consider. I thanked the teacher for her concern and said that I had consulted with multiple sources, and although there was some trepidation it was not going to be a huge gaping concern to me in the long run. I had spoken to my TVI about this beforehand and he was not listening to me about the issue. I walked out of a meeting that was supposed to turn out pretty good feeling very concerned and upset; not because of the class, but because of my TVI's actions. I respect and understand the fact that he has concerns, but he is addressing them in a way that isn't the best. He says stuff like "I don't think you can handle this" or "I don't think your parents know what you are doing." Although I have my parents entire support on this, he has not contacted them about it. He tried to get my guidance counselor to dissuade me from taking AP classes, but my counselor sited with me. My parents and I have agreed that I need to speak to him on Monday about how that was probably not the best course of action to take on his part and how I and my parents have made this decision and he needs to respect it. His actions in this respect and his negative actions in general are completely destroying what little confidence I had both in blindness and as a person. I feel like I have no right to speak against him or that he will not take me seriously no matter how I phraise anything because no matter what I'm just a dumb blind teenager who knows absolutely nothing about her capabilities or about anything in general. There are incidents besides this one where I have felt like I was being questioned. I do not think I have done anything to make him question me like this. He is completely destroying my confidence and I need to salvage what little I have left to make him stop treating me like this. I understand that everyone has different ways of dealing with people, but I do not think whether he knows it or not, he should not be aiming to destroy my confidence or make me feel like I have to prove something to him. I understand that not all of this is his fault and through my actions I have probably done something to earn this, but I would like to know what. I apologize for complaining here, and I am not trying to get pitty. I do plan to talk to him on Monday so I can at least try to do something constructive about the situation. He has done some good things, but the bad things overshadow the good things he has done. Thanks, Lillie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:10 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics Hi Lillie, I don't know exact answers to most of your questions, but just wanted to let you know that I've taken five statistics courses (including graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While sighted students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and the stats functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are not, you can definitely participate without using a graphing calculator. In fact, I think graphing is a very minor part of the course curriculum. That said, I don't know what the AP test looks like, and you might have to use a graphing calculator on the test. Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so you may want to find out what the regular test requires and then contact the college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the normal requirements are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the best person to ask based on your other posts). If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed descriptions of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the graph is important for understanding the underlying math and interpreting results. I just did it to appease the teacher's requirements on exams and such. You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a web-based calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ Your teacher may or may not know about GraphPad, but you might offer to use that instead of any inaccessible software that's required. Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether you're expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations by calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, using a standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic math. I used JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note calculator for computations, and Excel will also work for that. Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm happy to consult when you have more specific questions. Best, Arielle On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi Everyone > > > > I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the > teacher of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking > about before I have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, > answering these questions would be very helpful. I am not sure how > college stats classes work, but I'd think they would be similar. > > > > 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and > used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? > > > > 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? > > > > 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note > calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? > > > > 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? > > > > 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any point > if I have the calculator and excel available to me? > > > > 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that > are inaccessible? > > > > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. net From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Apr 25 20:18:54 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 14:18:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home Message-ID: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net> Dear List, You all are right about the transit issues and the parental treatment of blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was infantilized to the point whre a legal contract was set up so that I couldn't move out. Some parents seriously don't know what they're talking about. Some honestly think it's ok to infantilize their young because of the person's blindness or other disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly wanting to say something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, you were right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my college days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it just wasn't something I could simply choose. I feel it was something I absolutely had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm going to do what ever I can with my life to make it full and productive. Happy is another word I would use to describe what I want my life to be. But the thing is, my current boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle said in her list post, and it's even worse now with his brother who died. I don't know how to tell the rest of the world that I love him without being criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake is the right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that his mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. Beth -- Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach me by skype at denverqueen0920 From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 20:33:56 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 14:33:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed decisions. My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to listen to your parents. Best, Arielle On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi Arielle and all, > > I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with my > stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the > teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses excel > or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she would > send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out > what > I needed to do. > > However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I need > to > start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my > teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was some > trig that would be on the ACT that I would need to know just as a sort of > FYI thing to consider, my TVI kept bringing the conversation back to the > ACT > and math in general, and if she thought I should switch out, although she > had previously said that it was just a thing to consider. I thanked the > teacher for her concern and said that I had consulted with multiple > sources, > and although there was some trepidation it was not going to be a huge > gaping > concern to me in the long run. I had spoken to my TVI about this beforehand > and he was not listening to me about the issue. > I walked out of a meeting that was supposed to turn out pretty good feeling > very concerned and upset; not because of the class, but because of my TVI's > actions. I respect and understand the fact that he has concerns, but he is > addressing them in a way that isn't the best. He says stuff like "I don't > think you can handle this" or "I don't think your parents know what you are > doing." Although I have my parents entire support on this, he has not > contacted them about it. He tried to get my guidance counselor to dissuade > me from taking AP classes, but my counselor sited with me. My parents and I > have agreed that I need to speak to him on Monday about how that was > probably not the best course of action to take on his part and how I and my > parents have made this decision and he needs to respect it. > His actions in this respect and his negative actions in general are > completely destroying what little confidence I had both in blindness and as > a person. I feel like I have no right to speak against him or that he will > not take me seriously no matter how I phraise anything because no matter > what I'm just a dumb blind teenager who knows absolutely nothing about her > capabilities or about anything in general. There are incidents besides this > one where I have felt like I was being questioned. I do not think I have > done anything to make him question me like this. > He is completely destroying my confidence and I need to salvage what little > I have left to make him stop treating me like this. I understand that > everyone has different ways of dealing with people, but I do not think > whether he knows it or not, he should not be aiming to destroy my > confidence > or make me feel like I have to prove something to him. I understand that > not > all of this is his fault and through my actions I have probably done > something to earn this, but I would like to know what. > I apologize for complaining here, and I am not trying to get pitty. I do > plan to talk to him on Monday so I can at least try to do something > constructive about the situation. He has done some good things, but the bad > things overshadow the good things he has done. > > Thanks, > Lillie > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:10 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics > > Hi Lillie, > > I don't know exact answers to most of your questions, but just wanted to > let > you know that I've taken five statistics courses (including > graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While sighted > students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and the stats > functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are not, you can > definitely participate without using a graphing calculator. In fact, I > think > graphing is a very minor part of the course curriculum. That said, I don't > know what the AP test looks like, and you might have to use a graphing > calculator on the test. > Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so you > may want to find out what the regular test requires and then contact the > college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the normal requirements > are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the best person to ask based > on your other posts). > > If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed descriptions > of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the graph is important > for understanding the underlying math and interpreting results. I just did > it to appease the teacher's requirements on exams and such. > You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a > web-based calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ Your teacher may or > may > not know about GraphPad, but you might offer to use that instead of any > inaccessible software that's required. > Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether > you're > expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations by > calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, using a > standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic math. I used > JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note calculator for > computations, and Excel will also work for that. > > Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm happy > to > consult when you have more specific questions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> Hi Everyone >> >> >> >> I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the >> teacher of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking >> about before I have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, >> answering these questions would be very helpful. I am not sure how >> college stats classes work, but I'd think they would be similar. >> >> >> >> 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and >> used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? >> >> >> >> 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? >> >> >> >> 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note >> calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? >> >> >> >> 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? >> >> >> >> 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any > point >> if I have the calculator and excel available to me? >> >> >> >> 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that >> are inaccessible? >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. > net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From mikgephart at icloud.com Fri Apr 25 22:59:35 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:59:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Test Message-ID: Hi, A few minutes ago, I got an email from the list asking me if I want to subscribe? I have not recently unsubscribed. I am just checking my membership on the list. Mikayla Sent from my iPad From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 02:52:23 2014 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 19:52:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] question about the SAT Message-ID: <535b1f9b.819a420a.1868.ffffdd5f@mx.google.com> Hi all, I'm a junior in high school, and I'm going to be taking the SAT in June. In two weeks, starting May 10, I will be taking an SAT prep course. This course is taught by 2 teachers at my school (and they're both nice, which is a good start!) Anyway, the course will be using The Official SAT Study Guide, which is written by the College Board. This guide is available on Bookshare. But for the math portion, I am going to need it in hard-cover because of the graphs and symbols. Does anyone have a hard copy of the math portion and practice tests of the study guide that they could lend me? Alternatively, is there a service that I can order the guide from? What I suppose I could do is ask the teachers which pages they'll be using and my braillist can do these pages. (The book is too big for her to do the whole thing.) Does anyone else have any suggesttions or can give me guidance? Thanks, Vejas From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sat Apr 26 02:57:27 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 22:57:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] question about the SAT In-Reply-To: <535b1f9b.819a420a.1868.ffffdd5f@mx.google.com> References: <535b1f9b.819a420a.1868.ffffdd5f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <6AC80FD0-5A75-47BC-AA98-14096F369912@fuse.net> Maybe call the college board. I know they have ap review materials. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 25, 2014, at 10:52 PM, vejas wrote: > > Hi all, > I'm a junior in high school, and I'm going to be taking the SAT in June. > In two weeks, starting May 10, I will be taking an SAT prep course. This course is taught by 2 teachers at my school (and they're both nice, which is a good start!) > Anyway, the course will be using The Official SAT Study Guide, which is written by the College Board. This guide is available on Bookshare. But for the math portion, I am going to need it in hard-cover because of the graphs and symbols. > Does anyone have a hard copy of the math portion and practice tests of the study guide that they could lend me? Alternatively, is there a service that I can order the guide from? > What I suppose I could do is ask the teachers which pages they'll be using and my braillist can do these pages. (The book is too big for her to do the whole thing.) > Does anyone else have any suggesttions or can give me guidance? > Thanks, > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From programmer651 at comcast.net Sat Apr 26 03:00:04 2014 From: programmer651 at comcast.net (Tyler) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 23:00:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] question about the SAT Message-ID: <20140426030002.4534.89105.levelstar.mail@everest> That would be a good idea; ask the teachers which pages, and have the Braillist do those pages. Best thing I can think of. Tyler Z On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 19:52:23 -0700, vejas wrote: >Hi all, >I'm a junior in high school, and I'm going to be taking the SAT >in June. >In two weeks, starting May 10, I will be taking an SAT prep >course. This course is taught by 2 teachers at my school (and >they're both nice, which is a good start!) >Anyway, the course will be using The Official SAT Study Guide, >which is written by the College Board. This guide is available >on Bookshare. But for the math portion, I am going to need it in >hard-cover because of the graphs and symbols. >Does anyone have a hard copy of the math portion and practice >tests of the study guide that they could lend me? Alternatively, >is there a service that I can order the guide from? >What I suppose I could do is ask the teachers which pages they'll >be using and my braillist can do these pages. (The book is too >big for her to do the whole thing.) >Does anyone else have any suggesttions or can give me guidance? >Thanks, >Vejas > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/programmer651%40comcast.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 03:29:57 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 23:29:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As far as I can tell you are still a member in good standing. Your message came through. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 25, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > > Hi, > A few minutes ago, I got an email from the list asking me if I want to subscribe? I have not recently unsubscribed. I am just checking my membership on the list. > Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From lizzym0827 at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 15:19:22 2014 From: lizzym0827 at gmail.com (lizzy) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 11:19:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP Statistics Message-ID: <535bce7f.8715e00a.3f54.06af@mx.google.com> Hi Lillie, You've probably already had your meeting, but I just read this message and figured I'd answer these questions for anyone who may find them helpful. I am taking AP Stat this year so if you'd like anymore info feel free to ask away. I've answered your questions below. 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? Answer: The TI84 will work just fine, the stat functions work very well. There is a way to graph things on it, but I personally do not find the function very helpful. I would recommend graphing on Excel and then embossing your graph if you need to see it for statistical analysis. 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? Answer: Yes, it is used a lot but that really depends on your teacher. Everything that is done in excel can be done on the calculator, so there are ways around it if you're not comfortable using the program. However, excel is a helpful supplement to the class and I would recommend proficiency in creating box-and-whisker plots, dot plots, residuals, basic stat functions (mean median, mote etc.), and other stat functions that are escaping me right now (but your teacher can tell you exactly what you'll need). I recommend playing around with these options over the summer, or at least learning the gist before they are taught in class. If you need more explanation let me know. 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? Answer: Yes, I've used it a few times. You don't necessarily "need" it since you have the TI84, but if you'd rather use it for basic functions it is another tool in your tool box. Since it only offers very basic options, you can use all or none of them. It just depends on your preference. 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? Answer: This is a tough question for me to answer because I learned the entire Nemeth code in the 6th grade, so I don't really know what would be considered "new". Ask your teacher to give you the formula sheets that will be given with the AP exam. Get that brailled and ask questions about any new symbols either over the summer (or before they are used in class). 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any point if I have the calculator and excel available to me? Answer: The class is mostly about interpreting graphs. I can't say that your teacher will never ask you to draw one but if you're taking AP that's probably not a huge issue for you. A detailed graph description will work just fine. The more important part of the class is being able to explain the reasoning behind your graph. 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that are inaccessible? Answer: None that I can think of right now. Other Tips: Just make sure you have the book you need along with the student answer edition (so that you can see the correct graphs once you've finished problems). Also, let your teacher know that it is imperative that they describe in class graphs done on excel. If you don't understand a description, please speak up and say something. A good teacher will make sure you have equal access to the graphs (whether this means drawing it ahead of time, asking a classmate to draw it for you while it's on the board, or going over it with you afterward). Some teachers just want to explain the graphs and they're not so great at doing so, this would be a time to get a friend or someone who has taken the class in the past to draw them for you and ask the teacher for an explanation afterward. I can't stress this enough, you REALLY need to know the graphs and the reasoning behind them so make sure you have access to them. If you have any other questions or just need more explanation, feel free to ask. HTH, Lizzy From lizzym0827 at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 15:28:43 2014 From: lizzym0827 at gmail.com (lizzy) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 11:28:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting Connected with Collleges Message-ID: <535bd0b0.090ce00a.419d.0c78@mx.google.com> Hi Lillie, I personally believe that there is no such thing as beginning the college search too early or that one can be too prepared for college. I started my college search the summer after 8th grade and started visiting in my sophomore year of high school. The next step is really up to you, I can't tell you exactly what to do because it depends on your interests and what you find important. Also, I don't know what you have done thus far so it's hard for me to say. I can tell you what I did though. I read tons of books about different schools and programs that fit me. Academics, extra-curricular activities, intern/externships and atmosphere were very important to me so I found colleges that met my needs as a school first. Then I called the disabilities office to ask what they offered. Don't be discouraged if a school has never had a blind student, just get a feel for their attitudes (are they willing to work with you and help you out). Read any material you can get your hands on, especially info posted/created by current students (blogs, newspapers etc.). Then visit, go for a tour, ask questions, go to an info session (they may even be held in a public place near your home), and of course meet with the coordinator of disabilities. In your meeting be sure to tell them how you do things now and ask them about the similarities and differences between what they offer and what you are currently doing. Practice things that will be different, for example, if they give you your books electronically but you're used to hard copy braille, start getting your books electronically so that you can get used to it. I don't really recommend summer campus visits because the students are not there to show you what life is really like, but if you visit your top choice over the summer be sure to visit again while students are on campus before making your final decision. If you want to do campus visits this summer then schedule them. As I said before, I do not believe that you can do this sort of thing too early. I'm sure that people think I started pretty early but I can honestly tell you that I feel confident that I chose the perfect fit for me. What you don't want to do, is do things too late and cram or not have the opportunity to visit schools that you really like. You're going to be a junior next year which is when my friends began visiting schools so you're on the right track for being proactive if you start visiting this summer. As always, if you have further questions or need more explanation about something, let me know! HTH, Lizzy From mikgephart at icloud.com Sat Apr 26 15:56:12 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 11:56:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All fixed. Sent from my iPad > On Apr 25, 2014, at 11:29 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > As far as I can tell you are still a member in good standing. Your message came through. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 25, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >> >> Hi, >> A few minutes ago, I got an email from the list asking me if I want to subscribe? I have not recently unsubscribed. I am just checking my membership on the list. >> Mikayla >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 18:11:11 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (Minhh Ha) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 14:11:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] question about the SAT In-Reply-To: <20140426030002.4534.89105.levelstar.mail@everest> References: <20140426030002.4534.89105.levelstar.mail@everest> Message-ID: I recommend calling the college board and asking them if they could send you old tests to use as study materials. I know the PSAT tests they use over and over so they can probably send them to you to use as practice materials. Also, graphs on the SAT's are really rudimentry and easy and not that frequent so I wouldn't worry about them too much. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 25, 2014, at 11:00 PM, Tyler wrote: > > That would be a good idea; ask the teachers which pages, and have the Braillist do those pages. Best thing I > can think of. > Tyler Z > On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 19:52:23 -0700, vejas wrote: > > >> Hi all, >> I'm a junior in high school, and I'm going to be taking the SAT >> in June. >> In two weeks, starting May 10, I will be taking an SAT prep >> course. This course is taught by 2 teachers at my school (and >> they're both nice, which is a good start!) >> Anyway, the course will be using The Official SAT Study Guide, >> which is written by the College Board. This guide is available >> on Bookshare. But for the math portion, I am going to need it in >> hard-cover because of the graphs and symbols. >> Does anyone have a hard copy of the math portion and practice >> tests of the study guide that they could lend me? Alternatively, >> is there a service that I can order the guide from? >> What I suppose I could do is ask the teachers which pages they'll >> be using and my braillist can do these pages. (The book is too >> big for her to do the whole thing.) >> Does anyone else have any suggesttions or can give me guidance? >> Thanks, >> Vejas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/programmer651%40comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com From brlsurfer at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 18:11:26 2014 From: brlsurfer at gmail.com (vejas) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 11:11:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] AP Statistics Message-ID: <535bf704.8482440a.5735.6ba2@mx.google.com> You are right that the calculator on the Braille-Note only does very basic functions. It can do mean, median, mone, range and standard deviation, but it can't do permutations and combinations, to the best of my knowledge. And I'm in algebra, so probably in AP stats it helps even less to use it. Vejas ----- Original Message ----- From: lizzy References: <535bce7f.8715e00a.3f54.06af@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2A283230-B661-4E7D-891C-063FB3E9F334@fuse.net> Thank you for this information. It was very helpful. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 26, 2014, at 11:19 AM, lizzy wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > You've probably already had your meeting, but I just read this message and figured I'd answer these questions for anyone who may find them helpful. I am taking AP Stat this year so if you'd like anymore info feel free to ask away. I've answered your questions below. > 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? > > > > > Answer: The TI84 will work just fine, the stat functions work very well. There is a way to graph things on it, but I personally do not find the function very helpful. I would recommend graphing on Excel and then embossing your graph if you need to see it for statistical analysis. > 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? > > > > > Answer: Yes, it is used a lot but that really depends on your teacher. Everything that is done in excel can be done on the calculator, so there are ways around it if you're not comfortable using the program. However, excel is a helpful supplement to the class and I would recommend proficiency in creating box-and-whisker plots, dot plots, residuals, basic stat functions (mean median, mote etc.), and other stat functions that are escaping me right now (but your teacher can tell you exactly what you'll need). I recommend playing around with these options over the summer, or at least learning the gist before they are taught in class. If you need more explanation let me know. > 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? > > > > > Answer: Yes, I've used it a few times. You don't necessarily "need" it since you have the TI84, but if you'd rather use it for basic functions it is another tool in your tool box. Since it only offers very basic options, you can use all or none of them. It just depends on your preference. > 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? > > Answer: This is a tough question for me to answer because I learned the entire Nemeth code in the 6th grade, so I don't really know what would be considered "new". Ask your teacher to give you the formula sheets that will be given with the AP exam. Get that brailled and ask questions about any new symbols either over the summer (or before they are used in class). > 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any point if I have the calculator and excel available to me? > > Answer: The class is mostly about interpreting graphs. I can't say that your teacher will never ask you to draw one but if you're taking AP that's probably not a huge issue for you. A detailed graph description will work just fine. The more important part of the class is being able to explain the reasoning behind your graph. > > 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that are inaccessible? > Answer: None that I can think of right now. > Other Tips: Just make sure you have the book you need along with the student answer edition (so that you can see the correct graphs once you've finished problems). Also, let your teacher know that it is imperative that they describe in class graphs done on excel. If you don't understand a description, please speak up and say something. A good teacher will make sure you have equal access to the graphs (whether this means drawing it ahead of time, asking a classmate to draw it for you while it's on the board, or going over it with you afterward). Some teachers just want to explain the graphs and they're not so great at doing so, this would be a time to get a friend or someone who has taken the class in the past to draw them for you and ask the teacher for an explanation afterward. I can't stress this enough, you REALLY need to know the graphs and the reasoning behind them so make sure you have access to them. > If you have any other questions or just need more explanation, feel free to ask. > HTH, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sat Apr 26 18:52:37 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 14:52:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Getting Connected with Collleges In-Reply-To: <535bd0b0.090ce00a.419d.0c78@mx.google.com> References: <535bd0b0.090ce00a.419d.0c78@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Lizzie Thank you for your advice. I have started downloading lots of college books from bookshare. I will also start looking at college websites and admissions again. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 26, 2014, at 11:28 AM, lizzy wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > I personally believe that there is no such thing as beginning the college search too early or that one can be too prepared for college. I started my college search the summer after 8th grade and started visiting in my sophomore year of high school. The next step is really up to you, I can't tell you exactly what to do because it depends on your interests and what you find important. Also, I don't know what you have done thus far so it's hard for me to say. I can tell you what I did though. I read tons of books about different schools and programs that fit me. Academics, extra-curricular activities, intern/externships and atmosphere were very important to me so I found colleges that met my needs as a school first. Then I called the disabilities office to ask what they offered. Don't be discouraged if a school has never had a blind student, just get a feel for their attitudes (are they willing to work with you and help you out). Read any material you can get your hands on, especially info posted/created by current students (blogs, newspapers etc.). Then visit, go for a tour, ask questions, go to an info session (they may even be held in a public place near your home), and of course meet with the coordinator of disabilities. In your meeting be sure to tell them how you do things now and ask them about the similarities and differences between what they offer and what you are currently doing. Practice things that will be different, for example, if they give you your books electronically but you're used to hard copy braille, start getting your books electronically so that you can get used to it. I don't really recommend summer campus visits because the students are not there to show you what life is really like, but if you visit your top choice over the summer be sure to visit again while students are on campus before making your final decision. If you want to do campus visits this summer then schedule them. As I said before, I do not believe that you can do this sort of thing too early. I'm sure that people think I started pretty early but I can honestly tell you that I feel confident that I chose the perfect fit for me. What you don't want to do, is do things too late and cram or not have the opportunity to visit schools that you really like. You're going to be a junior next year which is when my friends began visiting schools so you're on the right track for being proactive if you start visiting this summer. > As always, if you have further questions or need more explanation about something, let me know! > HTH, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From wmodnl at hotmail.com Sat Apr 26 19:22:44 2014 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 15:22:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home In-Reply-To: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net> References: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net> Message-ID: Good afternoon, Let's not forget the following paradox that happens. Maybe this was mentioned already. I apologize if this was already discussed. Remember, on a continuum, people with disabilities receive the standard SSI/SSDI funding. As a result, families often view this as a extra pay-check. Families will find ways to keep this money coming in, for various reasons. Hope this helps. Have a good day. Sent from my iPad > On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:19 PM, "Beth Taurasi" wrote: > > Dear List, > You all are right about the transit issues and the parental treatment of blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was infantilized to the point whre a legal contract was set up so that I couldn't move out. Some parents seriously don't know what they're talking about. Some honestly think it's ok to infantilize their young because of the person's blindness or other disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly wanting to say something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, you were right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my college days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it just wasn't something I could simply choose. I feel it was something I absolutely had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm going to do what ever I can with my life to make it full and productive. Happy is another word I would use to describe what I want my life to be. But the thing is, my current boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle said in her list post, and it's even worse now with his brother who died. I don't know how to tell the rest of the world that I love him without being criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake is the right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that his mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. > Beth > > -- > Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach me by skype at denverqueen0920 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sat Apr 26 20:21:25 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:21:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> Message-ID: <9320AA27-3E95-4BDF-B250-559939AF8A24@fuse.net> Thank you again for your kind response. My tvi does want me to take trig. Some research I did yesterday tells me that on last years act there were only 4 trig questions and most of the questions are about things I know about from geometry. You make an interesting point about the power complex. I think my mom is calling him tomorrow because he called her and said he had concerns. I find it ironic that he preaches self advocacy but doesn't seem to respect what I say. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > > I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he > think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the > ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be > questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, > and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed > decisions. > > My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of > the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his > actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can > certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be > effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because > until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and > can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate > on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk > to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with > you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect > for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to > listen to your parents. > > Best, > Arielle > >> On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> Hi Arielle and all, >> >> I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with my >> stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the >> teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses excel >> or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she would >> send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out >> what >> I needed to do. >> >> However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I need >> to >> start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my >> teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was some From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 20:52:20 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:52:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home References: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> Beth, This isn't about you! Please quit posting this nonsense on the list! Dr. Robert Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "wmodnl wmodnl" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home > Good afternoon, > Let's not forget the following paradox that happens. Maybe this was > mentioned already. I apologize if this was already discussed. > Remember, on a continuum, people with disabilities receive the standard > SSI/SSDI funding. As a result, families often view this as a extra > pay-check. Families will find ways to keep this money coming in, for > various reasons. Hope this helps. Have a good day. > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:19 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >> wrote: >> >> Dear List, >> You all are right about the transit issues and the parental treatment of >> blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was infantilized to the point >> whre a legal contract was set up so that I couldn't move out. Some >> parents seriously don't know what they're talking about. Some honestly >> think it's ok to infantilize their young because of the person's >> blindness or other disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly wanting >> to say something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, you were >> right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my college >> days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it just wasn't >> something I could simply choose. I feel it was something I absolutely >> had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm going to do >> what ever I can with my life to make it full and productive. Happy is >> another word I would use to describe what I want my life to be. But the >> thing is, my current boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle said in >> her list post, and it's even worse now with his brother who died. I >> don't know how to tell the rest of the world that I love him without >> being criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake is the >> right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that his >> mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. >> Beth >> >> -- >> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >> me by skype at denverqueen0920 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Apr 26 21:06:23 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 17:06:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home In-Reply-To: <828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> References: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net> <828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: actually I think her post was about her mainly. She escaped some overrestrictive conditions and is expressing interesting in marrying Blake who is being stiffled by his parents on the basis of multiple disabilities. since we discussed dating before, I seeno problem in her post. to me, it spoke of overcoming some difficult issues which was a good story to hear. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home Beth, This isn't about you! Please quit posting this nonsense on the list! Dr. Robert Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "wmodnl wmodnl" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home > Good afternoon, > Let's not forget the following paradox that happens. Maybe this was > mentioned already. I apologize if this was already discussed. > Remember, on a continuum, people with disabilities receive the standard > SSI/SSDI funding. As a result, families often view this as a extra > pay-check. Families will find ways to keep this money coming in, for > various reasons. Hope this helps. Have a good day. > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:19 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >> wrote: >> >> Dear List, >> You all are right about the transit issues and the parental treatment of >> blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was infantilized to the point >> whre a legal contract was set up so that I couldn't move out. Some >> parents seriously don't know what they're talking about. Some honestly >> think it's ok to infantilize their young because of the person's >> blindness or other disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly wanting >> to say something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, you were >> right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my college >> days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it just wasn't >> something I could simply choose. I feel it was something I absolutely >> had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm going to do >> what ever I can with my life to make it full and productive. Happy is >> another word I would use to describe what I want my life to be. But the >> thing is, my current boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle said in >> her list post, and it's even worse now with his brother who died. I >> don't know how to tell the rest of the world that I love him without >> being criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake is the >> right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that his >> mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. >> Beth >> >> -- >> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >> me by skype at denverqueen0920 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 22:59:36 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:59:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] living skills, unsupportive family and negative words In-Reply-To: <4EAAFF5393E049B58B6FCA05B0D08E0A@OwnerPC> References: <06B84AF7-053D-4393-952E-EF24BC56083A@att.net> <000501cf6008$442da280$cc88e780$@gmail.com> <30205BB0-E352-4E4C-897C-F18D3C1FFD16@att.net> <31508711-0065-4E09-B991-DDF2C982CF46@gmail.com> <4EAAFF5393E049B58B6FCA05B0D08E0A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, You can buy measuring cups and spoons in sets that fit together with the smaller ones nested inside bigger ones, and then they just stay in order. I don't Braille or label any of my measuring utensils. When you add pasta to boiling water the water will cool slightly so it won't boil over. You can turn the heat down after it has returned to boiling. The trick of listening for when the water is boiling never worked well for me. I usually just feel the sides of the pot, which stay cool, and judge that it's boiling when the sides start to vibrate. For knowing when anything is done, be it meats or pasta or whatever, for beginners I suggest just following the cooking times in the recipe. If you follow the cooking time and something doesn't taste right, you'll know you need to adjust the cooking time a little bit. But for the most part, recipes have been tested and the cooking times given are pretty reliable. It will not hurt you if you accidentally take a bite of undercooked meat, notice it doesn't taste right and then put the meat back in the oven for a little bit longer. I've certainly done that. The single biggest lesson I learned about blind cooking is that it's OK to touch the side of a pan to see if it's centered, or to touch the top of something you just took out of the oven to see how it feels. Sighted people often flip out if we even get close to touching something, because they manage to monitor everything with their eyes. But just because sighted people don't use their hands doesn't mean it's dangerous for us to do so. You can get a lot of information from feeling how firm something is on top, etc. and as long as you wash your hands often during cooking, this is perfectly sanitary. For more detailed questions I suggest asking on the Blind-cooks list. Arielle On 4/25/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Kaiti, > I think we have some similarities in our parents. Again, I liked hearing > your story and tips without some of the judgements coming from others. > My mom does get impatient too. I suppose she is sort of helpful because she > > did help me relabel the microwave as its labels fell off. they had stuck on > > for years and years. > > thanks for your advice. Can you suggest some basic recipes or do you just > follow packaged directions? > > It seems to me most recipes I read online use words assuming you know > things; okay; I understand terms bake and preheat. > But some baking recipies say things like sift this or cream that. > What do you do about measuring? how do you differientiate the measuring > utensils? > > I'll just copy your text in and respond after it. > > About stoves: > Of course, some stove and oven controls are > better than others, and that was certainly the case between my home > and apartment stoves (my apartment stove actually has dials for the > burners with a tactile marking already on them, and they click into > the different places so it works well without any modification). > > > I respond: > Oh, which type of stove? I did not realize they still made stoves with dials > > that clicked into places for the temperatures. We have a flat electric > stove. I use it for canned food but its hard to center pans and I want one > like you described. So, if you know its type, let me know. We use GE > appliances. > > > About the boiling: > Rice, pasta, and hard boiling eggs are very simple. You just put them > in a pot of water. Rice and pasta you add once the water is boiling, > but if you make eggs make sure you put eggs in before boiling water, > because obviously the water will be hot once you turn the burner on. > > I respond, > do you just feel it to know when its cooked through and then drain it? > I love pasta. Yeah, its easy to cook, good point. But how do you keep it > from boiling over then if you add the noodles to already boiling water? Do > you turn the heat down? To add stuff to pasta, all you'd need is spaghetti > or manera sauce. > Easy to fix. Does the pre formed meatballs have directions on the package > for cooking them? Yeah, all you'd need to do is add sauce and possibly meat > > balls. So, how much sauce. Do you simply pour some, maybe half a jar into a > > dish and heat it up? > > The cool thing is now a days they make some fancy sauces with lots of good > tastes so you can have quite a variety of options for sauces. > I know potatoes are easy to make. Do you put them in cold water or after its > > boiling? You have to cut them first I know. Then they can be eaten as slices > > or mashed with adding some items like butter and milk. > > I've often wanted to make roasted potatoes. All I know is you throw them on > > a greased sheet at 350 but I don't know the specifics of what spices to add > > and if you have to peel them. Maybe I'll look up scalloped potato recipes > and see if I understand that. > > Meats are harder as you have to clean the meat and determine doneness. > Even a pretty competent lady at our nfb chapter says she is not as confident > > in cooking of the blindness skills she has because she doesn't trust her > judgement on meats. She is younger than me but lived on her own for several > > years. > > True you can time the meats; like chicken is 30 minutes. but still it can > vary due to your oven, and unlike baking, there's no toothpick test. > > I'm glad to hear your cooking adventures are going well. > > Ashley > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 23:23:49 2014 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:23:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics Message-ID: <535c4037.68d0ec0a.0bf9.fffffe4e@mx.google.com> In the blindness field, I've found that a lot of people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Basically, they say they want us to be independent and stuff, but they enable us and don't let us advocate for ourselves. And Lillie, you're right about the Trig on the ACT. I can tell you as someone who just took it a few months ago, there isn't much trig on it at all, and what there is basically just finding the sine, cosine, or tangent of angles, which is covered in tenth-grade geometry. I got a pretty good score on my ACT--a 30--and I am NOT a math person. I'm about as unmathematical as you can get. So my point is, you don't need a complicated math class to do well on the ACT. Stas should be fine. That's what I'm taking next year. Some teachers tried to talk me out into taking precalc, but I dug in my heels. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington wrote: Hi Lillie, I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed decisions. My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to listen to your parents. Best, Arielle On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: Hi Arielle and all, I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with my stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses excel or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she would send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out what I needed to do. However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I need to start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was some _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Apr 26 23:29:31 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:29:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics References: <535c4037.68d0ec0a.0bf9.fffffe4e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I have a question for all of you. What does being independent mean to you? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sophie Trist" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics > In the blindness field, I've found that a lot of people talk the talk but > don't walk the walk. Basically, they say they want us to be independent > and stuff, but they enable us and don't let us advocate for ourselves. And > Lillie, you're right about the Trig on the ACT. I can tell you as someone > who just took it a few months ago, there isn't much trig on it at all, and > what there is basically just finding the sine, cosine, or tangent of > angles, which is covered in tenth-grade geometry. I got a pretty good > score on my ACT--a 30--and I am NOT a math person. I'm about as > unmathematical as you can get. So my point is, you don't need a > complicated math class to do well on the ACT. Stas should be fine. That's > what I'm taking next year. Some teachers tried to talk me out into taking > precalc, but I dug in my heels. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:21:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics > > Thank you again for your kind response. > My tvi does want me to take trig. Some research I did yesterday tells me > that on last years act there were only 4 trig questions and most of the > questions are about things I know about from geometry. > You make an interesting point about the power complex. I think my mom is > calling him tomorrow because he called her and said he had concerns. I > find it ironic that he preaches self advocacy but doesn't seem to respect > what I say. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > > I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he > think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the > ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be > questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, > and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed > decisions. > > My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of > the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his > actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can > certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be > effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because > until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and > can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate > on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk > to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with > you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect > for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to > listen to your parents. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi Arielle and all, > > I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with my > stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the > teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses > excel > or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she would > send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out > what > I needed to do. > > However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I need > to > start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my > teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was > some > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Apr 27 00:01:33 2014 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:01:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home References: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net> <828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: <6459C68D744E44A3B7A9C9CE311EC1D7@peted2AB964BD1> Good evening everyone, This is far from being nonsense! It's an all too familiar problem that no one seems to have figured out how to address. Social Security law does permit parents or guardians of disabled individuals living with them to receive benefits as they are providing care to such persons. It becomes a problem when unscrupulous parents, relatives, or guardians do all within their power to discourage or not permitting disabled individuals to move out on their own so they would lose the monthly benefit check they receive. Never mind that the blind person is quite capable of living independently as long as they can continue to receive Social Security payments for having that person live with them they'll do all within their power to hang on to that benefit check with little or no consideration of the rights of the blind individual and their wishes to live away from home and function independently and create a high quality of life than what they have being stuck under their parents roof. Much to her credit my mother could have easily been tempted to keep me living with her so she could continue to receive Social Security for providing for my needs but she recognized that I needed to make my own way in this World, that she wouldn't be around to care for me for my entire life (Something that has come to pass as she died the day before Thanksgiving 2009) that We're all entitled to live independent and productive lives and that selfish individuals like that do great harm to and a great disservice to their blind children or spouses whatever the case may be. I would hope that Social Security would scrutinize claims made by disabled adults still living at home to insure that there are indeed valid reasons for their remaining with a parent or guardian and that they are not being exploited simply so these caretakers can mooch off the Government at the expense of the rights and dignity of the blind individual. This is a very real problem and one I hope the NFB addresses more aggressively in the future. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home > Beth, This isn't about you! Please quit posting this nonsense on the list! > Dr. Robert Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wmodnl wmodnl" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:22 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at > home > > >> Good afternoon, >> Let's not forget the following paradox that happens. Maybe this was >> mentioned already. I apologize if this was already discussed. >> Remember, on a continuum, people with disabilities receive the standard >> SSI/SSDI funding. As a result, families often view this as a extra >> pay-check. Families will find ways to keep this money coming in, for >> various reasons. Hope this helps. Have a good day. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:19 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear List, >>> You all are right about the transit issues and the parental treatment of >>> blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was infantilized to the >>> point whre a legal contract was set up so that I couldn't move out. >>> Some parents seriously don't know what they're talking about. Some >>> honestly think it's ok to infantilize their young because of the >>> person's blindness or other disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly >>> wanting to say something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, >>> you were right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my >>> college days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it just >>> wasn't something I could simply choose. I feel it was something I >>> absolutely had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm >>> going to do what ever I can with my life to make it full and productive. >>> Happy is another word I would use to describe what I want my life to be. >>> But the thing is, my current boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle >>> said in her list post, and it's even worse now with his brother who >>> died. I don't know how to tell the rest of the world that I love him >>> without being criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake >>> is the right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that >>> his mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. >>> Beth >>> >>> -- >>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >>> me by skype at denverqueen0920 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Apr 27 00:02:34 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:02:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just ignore it, they sometimes get generated.At 05:59 PM 4/25/2014, you wrote: >Hi, Dave > A few minutes ago, I got an email from the list asking me > if I want to subscribe? I have not recently unsubscribed. I am just > checking my membership on the list. >Mikayla > >Sent from my iPad > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 00:22:40 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:22:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home In-Reply-To: References: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net> <828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: <003f01cf61ae$cd2bb070$67831150$@gmail.com> She posted a valid statement. It is along the same lines. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 5:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home actually I think her post was about her mainly. She escaped some overrestrictive conditions and is expressing interesting in marrying Blake who is being stiffled by his parents on the basis of multiple disabilities. since we discussed dating before, I seeno problem in her post. to me, it spoke of overcoming some difficult issues which was a good story to hear. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home Beth, This isn't about you! Please quit posting this nonsense on the list! Dr. Robert Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "wmodnl wmodnl" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home > Good afternoon, > Let's not forget the following paradox that happens. Maybe this was > mentioned already. I apologize if this was already discussed. > Remember, on a continuum, people with disabilities receive the standard > SSI/SSDI funding. As a result, families often view this as a extra > pay-check. Families will find ways to keep this money coming in, for > various reasons. Hope this helps. Have a good day. > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:19 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >> wrote: >> >> Dear List, >> You all are right about the transit issues and the parental treatment of >> blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was infantilized to the point >> whre a legal contract was set up so that I couldn't move out. Some >> parents seriously don't know what they're talking about. Some honestly >> think it's ok to infantilize their young because of the person's >> blindness or other disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly wanting >> to say something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, you were >> right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my college >> days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it just wasn't >> something I could simply choose. I feel it was something I absolutely >> had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm going to do >> what ever I can with my life to make it full and productive. Happy is >> another word I would use to describe what I want my life to be. But the >> thing is, my current boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle said in >> her list post, and it's even worse now with his brother who died. I >> don't know how to tell the rest of the world that I love him without >> being criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake is the >> right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that his >> mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. >> Beth >> >> -- >> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >> me by skype at denverqueen0920 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sun Apr 27 00:41:27 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:41:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: <535c4037.68d0ec0a.0bf9.fffffe4e@mx.google.com> References: <535c4037.68d0ec0a.0bf9.fffffe4e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <053160C5-0056-47C0-9C77-ADBF2DBFC2F8@fuse.net> Hi Sophie Thank you for your experience. A 30 is really good. You are definitely are right about walking the walk as well. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 26, 2014, at 7:23 PM, Sophie Trist wrote: > > In the blindness field, I've found that a lot of people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Basically, they say they want us to be independent and stuff, but they enable us and don't let us advocate for ourselves. And Lillie, you're right about the Trig on the ACT. I can tell you as someone who just took it a few months ago, there isn't much trig on it at all, and what there is basically just finding the sine, cosine, or tangent of angles, which is covered in tenth-grade geometry. I got a pretty good score on my ACT--a 30--and I am NOT a math person. I'm about as unmathematical as you can get. So my point is, you don't need a complicated math class to do well on the ACT. Stas should be fine. That's what I'm taking next year. Some teachers tried to talk me out into taking precalc, but I dug in my heels. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:21:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics > > Thank you again for your kind response. > My tvi does want me to take trig. Some research I did yesterday tells me that on last years act there were only 4 trig questions and most of the questions are about things I know about from geometry. > You make an interesting point about the power complex. I think my mom is calling him tomorrow because he called her and said he had concerns. I find it ironic that he preaches self advocacy but doesn't seem to respect what I say. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > > I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he > think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the > ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be > questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, > and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed > decisions. > > My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of > the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his > actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can > certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be > effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because > until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and > can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate > on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk > to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with > you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect > for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to > listen to your parents. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi Arielle and all, > > I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with my > stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the > teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses excel > or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she would > send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out > what > I needed to do. > > However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I need > to > start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my > teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was some > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 14:06:57 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:06:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home In-Reply-To: <6459C68D744E44A3B7A9C9CE311EC1D7@peted2AB964BD1> References: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net><828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> <6459C68D744E44A3B7A9C9CE311EC1D7@peted2AB964BD1> Message-ID: <704D0DA046B84FF1BF264C72A6F49083@OwnerPC> Peter, good points. glad to hear your situation worked out. I don't know Beth's boyfriend's disabilities, but if Blake can live on his own and has the cognitive abilities to manage finances and other matters, he and beth can and should be able to go about their lives. All I can say is I hope it works out. And its far from nonsense. I suggest RJ delete these messages if he does not wish to hear such stories and expressed hardships of people on list or their close friends and romantic partners. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Peter Donahue Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 8:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home Good evening everyone, This is far from being nonsense! It's an all too familiar problem that no one seems to have figured out how to address. Social Security law does permit parents or guardians of disabled individuals living with them to receive benefits as they are providing care to such persons. It becomes a problem when unscrupulous parents, relatives, or guardians do all within their power to discourage or not permitting disabled individuals to move out on their own so they would lose the monthly benefit check they receive. Never mind that the blind person is quite capable of living independently as long as they can continue to receive Social Security payments for having that person live with them they'll do all within their power to hang on to that benefit check with little or no consideration of the rights of the blind individual and their wishes to live away from home and function independently and create a high quality of life than what they have being stuck under their parents roof. Much to her credit my mother could have easily been tempted to keep me living with her so she could continue to receive Social Security for providing for my needs but she recognized that I needed to make my own way in this World, that she wouldn't be around to care for me for my entire life (Something that has come to pass as she died the day before Thanksgiving 2009) that We're all entitled to live independent and productive lives and that selfish individuals like that do great harm to and a great disservice to their blind children or spouses whatever the case may be. I would hope that Social Security would scrutinize claims made by disabled adults still living at home to insure that there are indeed valid reasons for their remaining with a parent or guardian and that they are not being exploited simply so these caretakers can mooch off the Government at the expense of the rights and dignity of the blind individual. This is a very real problem and one I hope the NFB addresses more aggressively in the future. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home > Beth, This isn't about you! Please quit posting this nonsense on the list! > Dr. Robert Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wmodnl wmodnl" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:22 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at > home > > >> Good afternoon, >> Let's not forget the following paradox that happens. Maybe this was >> mentioned already. I apologize if this was already discussed. >> Remember, on a continuum, people with disabilities receive the standard >> SSI/SSDI funding. As a result, families often view this as a extra >> pay-check. Families will find ways to keep this money coming in, for >> various reasons. Hope this helps. Have a good day. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:19 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear List, >>> You all are right about the transit issues and the parental treatment of >>> blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was infantilized to the >>> point whre a legal contract was set up so that I couldn't move out. Some >>> parents seriously don't know what they're talking about. Some honestly >>> think it's ok to infantilize their young because of the person's >>> blindness or other disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly wanting >>> to say something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, you >>> were right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my >>> college days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it just >>> wasn't something I could simply choose. I feel it was something I >>> absolutely had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm >>> going to do what ever I can with my life to make it full and productive. >>> Happy is another word I would use to describe what I want my life to be. >>> But the thing is, my current boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle >>> said in her list post, and it's even worse now with his brother who >>> died. I don't know how to tell the rest of the world that I love him >>> without being criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake >>> is the right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that >>> his mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. >>> Beth >>> >>> -- >>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >>> me by skype at denverqueen0920 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 14:18:25 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:18:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home In-Reply-To: <704D0DA046B84FF1BF264C72A6F49083@OwnerPC> References: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net><828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> <6459C68D744E44A3B7A9C9CE311EC1D7@peted2AB964BD1> <704D0DA046B84FF1BF264C72A6F49083@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <011e01cf6223$8e58dec0$ab0a9c40$@gmail.com> I was unaware of social security law permitting the individual from moving out of the house. I will never move back into my parents house for sure now that I know that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2014 10:07 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home Peter, good points. glad to hear your situation worked out. I don't know Beth's boyfriend's disabilities, but if Blake can live on his own and has the cognitive abilities to manage finances and other matters, he and beth can and should be able to go about their lives. All I can say is I hope it works out. And its far from nonsense. I suggest RJ delete these messages if he does not wish to hear such stories and expressed hardships of people on list or their close friends and romantic partners. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Peter Donahue Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 8:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home Good evening everyone, This is far from being nonsense! It's an all too familiar problem that no one seems to have figured out how to address. Social Security law does permit parents or guardians of disabled individuals living with them to receive benefits as they are providing care to such persons. It becomes a problem when unscrupulous parents, relatives, or guardians do all within their power to discourage or not permitting disabled individuals to move out on their own so they would lose the monthly benefit check they receive. Never mind that the blind person is quite capable of living independently as long as they can continue to receive Social Security payments for having that person live with them they'll do all within their power to hang on to that benefit check with little or no consideration of the rights of the blind individual and their wishes to live away from home and function independently and create a high quality of life than what they have being stuck under their parents roof. Much to her credit my mother could have easily been tempted to keep me living with her so she could continue to receive Social Security for providing for my needs but she recognized that I needed to make my own way in this World, that she wouldn't be around to care for me for my entire life (Something that has come to pass as she died the day before Thanksgiving 2009) that We're all entitled to live independent and productive lives and that selfish individuals like that do great harm to and a great disservice to their blind children or spouses whatever the case may be. I would hope that Social Security would scrutinize claims made by disabled adults still living at home to insure that there are indeed valid reasons for their remaining with a parent or guardian and that they are not being exploited simply so these caretakers can mooch off the Government at the expense of the rights and dignity of the blind individual. This is a very real problem and one I hope the NFB addresses more aggressively in the future. All the best. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home > Beth, This isn't about you! Please quit posting this nonsense on the list! > Dr. Robert Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wmodnl wmodnl" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:22 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at > home > > >> Good afternoon, >> Let's not forget the following paradox that happens. Maybe this was >> mentioned already. I apologize if this was already discussed. >> Remember, on a continuum, people with disabilities receive the standard >> SSI/SSDI funding. As a result, families often view this as a extra >> pay-check. Families will find ways to keep this money coming in, for >> various reasons. Hope this helps. Have a good day. >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:19 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear List, >>> You all are right about the transit issues and the parental treatment of >>> blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was infantilized to the >>> point whre a legal contract was set up so that I couldn't move out. Some >>> parents seriously don't know what they're talking about. Some honestly >>> think it's ok to infantilize their young because of the person's >>> blindness or other disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly wanting >>> to say something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, you >>> were right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my >>> college days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it just >>> wasn't something I could simply choose. I feel it was something I >>> absolutely had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm >>> going to do what ever I can with my life to make it full and productive. >>> Happy is another word I would use to describe what I want my life to be. >>> But the thing is, my current boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle >>> said in her list post, and it's even worse now with his brother who >>> died. I don't know how to tell the rest of the world that I love him >>> without being criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake >>> is the right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that >>> his mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. >>> Beth >>> >>> -- >>> Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can reach >>> me by skype at denverqueen0920 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 16:47:15 2014 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:47:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] the meaning of independence Message-ID: <535d34c7.6ab5ec0a.537c.ffff97fd@mx.google.com> RJ, this is in response to your post on the AP statistics thread. I just thought I'd change the subject to reflect the new topic. We've had this discusson on the list recently, and it was a very good one. Independence is an abstract idea, like love, hope, faith, happiness, etc. It means different things to different people, both blind and sighted. It is every person's job to decide what independence means to them. For me personally, independence means to be able to have control of my life and my own destiny. It doesn't necessarily mean not relying on sighted help, as that is sometimes necessary and even beneficial. But it does mean not relying on help for everything. For instance, independence is the ability to go to a local concert using public transit even if a friend can't drive you. In that way, you have the transportation skills necessary to control where you go and how you get there. Yours sincerely, Sophie From gpaikens at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 21:46:22 2014 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 17:46:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> Message-ID: <1DCF7AAF-48D3-42BD-9442-87DF34E43A2F@gmail.com> I agree. At this point you need to get your parents involved. I love to hear how you have advocated for yourself, but it sounds as though that avenue has been ineffective on several issues this year. The next step would be to appeal to someone with more authority to advocate on your behalf, and your parents are the best choice. I am a TVI and unfortunately I also encounter the negative attitudes you guys refer to among my colleagues. The best solution I can think of is to have mor blind students go into this field. :) Best of luck with your advocacy effort. -Greg On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Lillie, > > I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he > think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the > ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be > questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, > and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed > decisions. > > My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of > the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his > actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can > certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be > effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because > until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and > can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate > on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk > to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with > you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect > for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to > listen to your parents. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> Hi Arielle and all, >> >> I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with my >> stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the >> teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses excel >> or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she would >> send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out >> what >> I needed to do. >> >> However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I need >> to >> start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my >> teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was some >> trig that would be on the ACT that I would need to know just as a sort of >> FYI thing to consider, my TVI kept bringing the conversation back to the >> ACT >> and math in general, and if she thought I should switch out, although she >> had previously said that it was just a thing to consider. I thanked the >> teacher for her concern and said that I had consulted with multiple >> sources, >> and although there was some trepidation it was not going to be a huge >> gaping >> concern to me in the long run. I had spoken to my TVI about this beforehand >> and he was not listening to me about the issue. >> I walked out of a meeting that was supposed to turn out pretty good feeling >> very concerned and upset; not because of the class, but because of my TVI's >> actions. I respect and understand the fact that he has concerns, but he is >> addressing them in a way that isn't the best. He says stuff like "I don't >> think you can handle this" or "I don't think your parents know what you are >> doing." Although I have my parents entire support on this, he has not >> contacted them about it. He tried to get my guidance counselor to dissuade >> me from taking AP classes, but my counselor sited with me. My parents and I >> have agreed that I need to speak to him on Monday about how that was >> probably not the best course of action to take on his part and how I and my >> parents have made this decision and he needs to respect it. >> His actions in this respect and his negative actions in general are >> completely destroying what little confidence I had both in blindness and as >> a person. I feel like I have no right to speak against him or that he will >> not take me seriously no matter how I phraise anything because no matter >> what I'm just a dumb blind teenager who knows absolutely nothing about her >> capabilities or about anything in general. There are incidents besides this >> one where I have felt like I was being questioned. I do not think I have >> done anything to make him question me like this. >> He is completely destroying my confidence and I need to salvage what little >> I have left to make him stop treating me like this. I understand that >> everyone has different ways of dealing with people, but I do not think >> whether he knows it or not, he should not be aiming to destroy my >> confidence >> or make me feel like I have to prove something to him. I understand that >> not >> all of this is his fault and through my actions I have probably done >> something to earn this, but I would like to know what. >> I apologize for complaining here, and I am not trying to get pitty. I do >> plan to talk to him on Monday so I can at least try to do something >> constructive about the situation. He has done some good things, but the bad >> things overshadow the good things he has done. >> >> Thanks, >> Lillie >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:10 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics >> >> Hi Lillie, >> >> I don't know exact answers to most of your questions, but just wanted to >> let >> you know that I've taken five statistics courses (including >> graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While sighted >> students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and the stats >> functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are not, you can >> definitely participate without using a graphing calculator. In fact, I >> think >> graphing is a very minor part of the course curriculum. That said, I don't >> know what the AP test looks like, and you might have to use a graphing >> calculator on the test. >> Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so you >> may want to find out what the regular test requires and then contact the >> college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the normal requirements >> are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the best person to ask based >> on your other posts). >> >> If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed descriptions >> of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the graph is important >> for understanding the underlying math and interpreting results. I just did >> it to appease the teacher's requirements on exams and such. >> You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a >> web-based calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ Your teacher may or >> may >> not know about GraphPad, but you might offer to use that instead of any >> inaccessible software that's required. >> Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether >> you're >> expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations by >> calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, using a >> standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic math. I used >> JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note calculator for >> computations, and Excel will also work for that. >> >> Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm happy >> to >> consult when you have more specific questions. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>> Hi Everyone >>> >>> >>> >>> I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the >>> teacher of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking >>> about before I have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, >>> answering these questions would be very helpful. I am not sure how >>> college stats classes work, but I'd think they would be similar. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH and >>> used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? >>> >>> >>> >>> 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? >>> >>> >>> >>> 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note >>> calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? >>> >>> >>> >>> 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? >>> >>> >>> >>> 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any >> point >>> if I have the calculator and excel available to me? >>> >>> >>> >>> 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, that >>> are inaccessible? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >> net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From zdreicer at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 04:54:12 2014 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 22:54:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer Message-ID: Good evening, I hope everyone is doing well. I am faced with a difficult decision this evening. ... whether or not to go to my university and take one class and stay in the dorm for six weeks, or take the same class online. I feel that there are both negative and positive aspects to each of the two decisions. Regardless, I will be attending the University I am writing about in the fall. A couple advantages that icy to being on campus for the six weeks are being able to completely mapped the campus with very few people there, and being able to interact with my professor on a more one to one basis, including in person, and same holds true for the Dss office. I have been on campus before once. I have also sent an email with my accommodation letter to the professor who's class I plan to take if I were to take it face-to-face at the University. Some of my family is hesitant to allow me to do the six week session, and they would rather see me complete the courses online. They say that I would still be able to get to the campus a few days before the start of fall semester, but I feel like I would need more time that way I can know the campus, the city I will be residing in, and the Dss office staff, among other important things. I have had some difficulty with online classes in the past, they were college algebra classes that had an online homework component. The staff at the Dss office has informed me that online classes through the University I will be attending are conducted using blackboard. How accessible, or inaccessible, is blackboard? I have an iPhone, a Mac, and a Windows machine. Also, if faced with this decision, what would you do (which decision would you make), and why would you make that decision? I know in the end it will be my decision to make, I would just like suggestions from each of you. Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may provide. Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 05:11:26 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 01:11:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Zach, It sounds like this is your first time at the school. is this right? It depends on the class; some may be fine online but others, such as health, science, and economics may not be. In terms of blackboard, its mostly accessible. But, I use it and have challenges in some areas. I cannot submit assignments in the drop boxes since I cannot get to the browse button to click it to attach a file. Also, quizzes and tests pose some challenges because its radio buttons to select your answer. You can select your answer with space bar, but jaws tends to read the whole question again with your answer, not just your current line with your choice. Also, there is no way to see which questions you skipped without listening to all choices again. So, I've had to have someone skim the test for me for blank questions. Another concern with online classes is the professors have no clue about accessible documents; they will just upload documents in the way they want to. Scanned files will not read. Files with a column layout will be a problem. If it’s a class with a lot of reading, you may be okay online; like english or history classes. But if its technical and visual like a science or economics class, I would say no. With these classes, interaction with the professor becomes more necessary since you need to understand graphs and other diagrams. Its up to you. I'd opt for the face to face because you get to see your professor and interact with the class and often this helps you learn to be in class having discussions. But I'd say online may be doable, but it really depends on the class Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 12:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer Good evening, I hope everyone is doing well. I am faced with a difficult decision this evening. ... whether or not to go to my university and take one class and stay in the dorm for six weeks, or take the same class online. I feel that there are both negative and positive aspects to each of the two decisions. Regardless, I will be attending the University I am writing about in the fall. A couple advantages that icy to being on campus for the six weeks are being able to completely mapped the campus with very few people there, and being able to interact with my professor on a more one to one basis, including in person, and same holds true for the Dss office. I have been on campus before once. I have also sent an email with my accommodation letter to the professor who's class I plan to take if I were to take it face-to-face at the University. Some of my family is hesitant to allow me to do the six week session, and they would rather see me complete the courses online. They say that I would still be able to get to the campus a few days before the start of fall semester, but I feel like I would need more time that way I can know the campus, the city I will be residing in, and the Dss office staff, among other important things. I have had some difficulty with online classes in the past, they were college algebra classes that had an online homework component. The staff at the Dss office has informed me that online classes through the University I will be attending are conducted using blackboard. How accessible, or inaccessible, is blackboard? I have an iPhone, a Mac, and a Windows machine. Also, if faced with this decision, what would you do (which decision would you make), and why would you make that decision? I know in the end it will be my decision to make, I would just like suggestions from each of you. Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may provide. Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Mon Apr 28 10:23:53 2014 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (Leye-Shprintse) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 03:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer Message-ID: <1398680633.28198.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> BS'D Zachary, I've both taken classes online and at campus during my two years as a university student. I like both forms, I'm a literature and language student, and I've not had so many problems. Since you'll take classes at this college this autumn term, I'd take the class at campus. It'd be a good way to familiarise yourself with the campus, professors and staff and the town where the college is located. A lot of energy always goes to these things in the beginning and if you've the chance to do it earlier and in a more confortable setting why not? You'll also have time to find out which things you need to train more on, if this is your first time living from home; cleaning, cooking, shopping etc. Good luck with your decision! LeSholom, Leye-Shprintse Öberg <3 From louvins at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 11:26:47 2014 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 06:26:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: <1398680633.28198.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1398680633.28198.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Zack. Great to hear from you. I've taken an online class before which was a science class. I got a b in the class, which I think was pretty good. I had to learn how to use canvas which wasn't to bad after a while. However, my suggestion would be to take the class on campus. All the reasons you and others have stated are valid points. You would be able to ask your professor questions directly instead of having to email him if you need any assistance. A;lso getting to learn your routes on campus for your different class is also very crucial. If you had things figured out before you had classes in the fall, you would be more comfortable because you would already know your way around even with loads of students on campus. Getting to know your DS office is also important. I've gotten to know the people at my DS office quite well. For me, when attending my public college, I used my DS office a lot in the beginning to get textbooks and different things, but as the years went on, I didn't use them hardly at all. I'd also check with your college if they have tutoring available for classes. My college had a tutoring center which was totally free for me. I just made an appointment to see tutors on a weekly basis which greatly helped me in math classes. Like you said before the decision is ultimately up to you, and I wish you all the best in whatever you decide. On 4/28/14, Leye-Shprintse wrote: > > BS'D > > Zachary, > > I've both taken classes online and at campus during my two years as a > university student. I like both forms, I'm a literature and language > student, and I've not had so many problems. > > Since you'll take classes at this college this autumn term, I'd take the > class at campus. It'd be a good way to familiarise yourself with the campus, > professors and staff and the town where the college is located. A lot of > energy always goes to these things in the beginning and if you've the chance > to do it earlier and in a more confortable setting why not? > > You'll also have time to find out which things you need to train more on, if > this is your first time living from home; cleaning, cooking, shopping etc. > > Good luck with your decision! > > LeSholom, > Leye-Shprintse Öberg <3 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From philso1003 at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 12:22:39 2014 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Phil) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 08:22:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: <1DCF7AAF-48D3-42BD-9442-87DF34E43A2F@gmail.com> References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> <1DCF7AAF-48D3-42BD-9442-87DF34E43A2F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, Echoing what Arielle said, you can go through a Stats course without using graphing function in graphing calculator. I didn't use it when I took my 3 Stats courses in college either. You might also want to ask your teacher what software if any is used? For example, in college intro Stats courses they sometimes use software called STATA and SPSS. There's also a software called SAS but highly unlikely to be used in AP Stat. Hope this helps a bit. Best, Phil On 4/27/14, Greg Aikens wrote: > I agree. At this point you need to get your parents involved. I love to hear > how you have advocated for yourself, but it sounds as though that avenue has > been ineffective on several issues this year. The next step would be to > appeal to someone with more authority to advocate on your behalf, and your > parents are the best choice. > > I am a TVI and unfortunately I also encounter the negative attitudes you > guys refer to among my colleagues. The best solution I can think of is to > have mor blind students go into this field. :) > > Best of luck with your advocacy effort. > > -Greg > > On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Hi Lillie, >> >> I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he >> think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the >> ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be >> questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, >> and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed >> decisions. >> >> My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of >> the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his >> actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can >> certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be >> effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because >> until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and >> can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate >> on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk >> to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with >> you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect >> for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to >> listen to your parents. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>> Hi Arielle and all, >>> >>> I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with my >>> stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the >>> teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses >>> excel >>> or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she >>> would >>> send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out >>> what >>> I needed to do. >>> >>> However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I >>> need >>> to >>> start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my >>> teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was >>> some >>> trig that would be on the ACT that I would need to know just as a sort >>> of >>> FYI thing to consider, my TVI kept bringing the conversation back to the >>> ACT >>> and math in general, and if she thought I should switch out, although >>> she >>> had previously said that it was just a thing to consider. I thanked the >>> teacher for her concern and said that I had consulted with multiple >>> sources, >>> and although there was some trepidation it was not going to be a huge >>> gaping >>> concern to me in the long run. I had spoken to my TVI about this >>> beforehand >>> and he was not listening to me about the issue. >>> I walked out of a meeting that was supposed to turn out pretty good >>> feeling >>> very concerned and upset; not because of the class, but because of my >>> TVI's >>> actions. I respect and understand the fact that he has concerns, but he >>> is >>> addressing them in a way that isn't the best. He says stuff like "I >>> don't >>> think you can handle this" or "I don't think your parents know what you >>> are >>> doing." Although I have my parents entire support on this, he has not >>> contacted them about it. He tried to get my guidance counselor to >>> dissuade >>> me from taking AP classes, but my counselor sited with me. My parents and >>> I >>> have agreed that I need to speak to him on Monday about how that was >>> probably not the best course of action to take on his part and how I and >>> my >>> parents have made this decision and he needs to respect it. >>> His actions in this respect and his negative actions in general are >>> completely destroying what little confidence I had both in blindness and >>> as >>> a person. I feel like I have no right to speak against him or that he >>> will >>> not take me seriously no matter how I phraise anything because no matter >>> what I'm just a dumb blind teenager who knows absolutely nothing about >>> her >>> capabilities or about anything in general. There are incidents besides >>> this >>> one where I have felt like I was being questioned. I do not think I have >>> done anything to make him question me like this. >>> He is completely destroying my confidence and I need to salvage what >>> little >>> I have left to make him stop treating me like this. I understand that >>> everyone has different ways of dealing with people, but I do not think >>> whether he knows it or not, he should not be aiming to destroy my >>> confidence >>> or make me feel like I have to prove something to him. I understand that >>> not >>> all of this is his fault and through my actions I have probably done >>> something to earn this, but I would like to know what. >>> I apologize for complaining here, and I am not trying to get pitty. I do >>> plan to talk to him on Monday so I can at least try to do something >>> constructive about the situation. He has done some good things, but the >>> bad >>> things overshadow the good things he has done. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Lillie >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:10 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics >>> >>> Hi Lillie, >>> >>> I don't know exact answers to most of your questions, but just wanted to >>> let >>> you know that I've taken five statistics courses (including >>> graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While sighted >>> students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and the stats >>> functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are not, you can >>> definitely participate without using a graphing calculator. In fact, I >>> think >>> graphing is a very minor part of the course curriculum. That said, I >>> don't >>> know what the AP test looks like, and you might have to use a graphing >>> calculator on the test. >>> Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so >>> you >>> may want to find out what the regular test requires and then contact the >>> college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the normal >>> requirements >>> are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the best person to ask >>> based >>> on your other posts). >>> >>> If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed >>> descriptions >>> of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the graph is >>> important >>> for understanding the underlying math and interpreting results. I just >>> did >>> it to appease the teacher's requirements on exams and such. >>> You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a >>> web-based calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ Your teacher may or >>> may >>> not know about GraphPad, but you might offer to use that instead of any >>> inaccessible software that's required. >>> Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether >>> you're >>> expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations by >>> calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, using a >>> standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic math. I used >>> JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note calculator for >>> computations, and Excel will also work for that. >>> >>> Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm >>> happy >>> to >>> consult when you have more specific questions. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>>> Hi Everyone >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the >>>> teacher of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking >>>> about before I have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, >>>> answering these questions would be very helpful. I am not sure how >>>> college stats classes work, but I'd think they would be similar. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH >>>> and >>>> used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note >>>> calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any >>> point >>>> if I have the calculator and excel available to me? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, >>>> that >>>> are inaccessible? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>> net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Mon Apr 28 14:21:10 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 07:21:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140428071519.01e05e50@comcast.net> Good morning, I ought to make clear my position of studying anything "On-Line" not being a good idea, particularly if you deeply care for the material. I mean, how is one expected to glean a deep and hands-on experience being steeped in the subject matter, being in a room with like-minded people, engaging in class discussions all On-Line? My belief is that things done On-Line aren't really real. that's all. Besides, the points you make about advantages to a virtually empty campus are, I think valid ones. Those are my thoughts. Good luck! for today, Car 408-209-3239 At 09:54 PM 4/27/2014, you wrote: >Good evening, I hope everyone is doing well. I am faced with a >difficult decision this evening. ... whether or not to go to my >university and take one class and stay in the dorm for six >weeks, or take the same class online. I feel that there are both >negative and positive aspects to each of the two decisions. >Regardless, I will be attending the University I am writing about in >the fall. A couple advantages that icy to being on campus for the >six weeks are being able to completely mapped the campus with very >few people there, and being able to interact with my professor on a >more one to one basis, including in person, and same holds true for >the Dss office. I have been on campus before once. I have also sent >an email with my accommodation letter to the professor who's class I >plan to take if I were to take it face-to-face at the University. >Some of my family is hesitant to allow me to do the six week >session, and they would rather see me complete the courses online. >They say that I would still be able to get to the campus a few days >before the start of fall semester, but I feel like I would need >more time that way I can know the campus, the city I will be >residing in, and the Dss office staff, among other important things. >I have had some difficulty with online classes in the past, they >were college algebra classes that had an online homework component. >The staff at the Dss office has informed me that online classes >through the University I will be attending are conducted using >blackboard. How accessible, or inaccessible, is blackboard? I have >an iPhone, a Mac, and a Windows machine. > Also, if faced with this decision, what would you do (which > decision would you make), and why would you make that decision? I > know in the end it will be my decision to make, I would just like > suggestions from each of you. Thank you in advance for any > suggestions you may provide. > >Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 15:16:06 2014 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 09:16:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140428071519.01e05e50@comcast.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20140428071519.01e05e50@comcast.net> Message-ID: Carlie, I sort of thought you were above such categorical generalizations? Studying anything online is a bad idea? Always? No matter what? No exceptions ever? That strikes me as far too simplistic and an unfair dismissal of the online class learning environment I have found that, in certain situations, online classes can be just as rewarding and fulfilling as the traditional classroom environment. Depending on how it's set up i've noticed you can often have more substantive discussion in online classes then you will get from the typical lecture. Of course, that's not always the case and traditional classes can be great also… but I think online learning certainly has its place. Best, Kirt Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 28, 2014, at 8:21 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, > > I ought to make clear my position of studying anything "On-Line" not being a good idea, particularly if you deeply care for the material. I mean, how is one expected to glean a deep and hands-on experience being steeped in the subject matter, being in a room with like-minded people, engaging in class discussions all On-Line? My belief is that things done On-Line aren't really real. that's all. Besides, the points you make about advantages to a virtually empty campus are, I think valid ones. Those are my thoughts. Good luck! > for today, Car > 408-209-3239 > > At 09:54 PM 4/27/2014, you wrote: >> Good evening, I hope everyone is doing well. I am faced with a difficult decision this evening. ... whether or not to go to my university and take one class and stay in the dorm for six weeks, or take the same class online. I feel that there are both negative and positive aspects to each of the two decisions. Regardless, I will be attending the University I am writing about in the fall. A couple advantages that icy to being on campus for the six weeks are being able to completely mapped the campus with very few people there, and being able to interact with my professor on a more one to one basis, including in person, and same holds true for the Dss office. I have been on campus before once. I have also sent an email with my accommodation letter to the professor who's class I plan to take if I were to take it face-to-face at the University. Some of my family is hesitant to allow me to do the six week session, and they would rather see me complete the courses online. They say that I would still be able to get to the campus a few days before the start of fall semester, but I feel like I would need more time that way I can know the campus, the city I will be residing in, and the Dss office staff, among other important things. I have had some difficulty with online classes in the past, they were college algebra classes that had an online homework component. The staff at the Dss office has informed me that online classes through the University I will be attending are conducted using blackboard. How accessible, or inaccessible, is blackboard? I have an iPhone, a Mac, and a Windows machine. >> Also, if faced with this decision, what would you do (which decision would you make), and why would you make that decision? I know in the end it will be my decision to make, I would just like suggestions from each of you. Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may provide. >> >> Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From louvins at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 15:24:33 2014 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 10:24:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20140428071519.01e05e50@comcast.net> Message-ID: When I took my online science class. I didn't really have a choice. Actually, I did have a choice, but it was either take the online science class, or go to a science class where the teacher didn't even want me in the class at all. I actually met the teacher of my online class in a meeting, and she was very nice if I needed to email her questions about assignments or get something in an accessible format. I was surprised how much I enjoyed the class. However, with online classes you must be disciplined and do your assignments in a very timely manor. Always check your due dates very carefully. I had two to 3 assignments per week. On 4/28/14, Kirt wrote: > Carlie, > I sort of thought you were above such categorical generalizations? Studying > anything online is a bad idea? Always? No matter what? No exceptions ever? > That strikes me as far too simplistic and an unfair dismissal of the online > class learning environment I have found that, in certain situations, online > classes can be just as rewarding and fulfilling as the traditional classroom > environment. Depending on how it's set up i've noticed you can often have > more substantive discussion in online classes then you will get from the > typical lecture. Of course, that's not always the case and traditional > classes can be great also… but I think online learning certainly has its > place. Best, > Kirt > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 28, 2014, at 8:21 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> Good morning, >> >> I ought to make clear my position of studying anything "On-Line" >> not being a good idea, particularly if you deeply care for the material. I >> mean, how is one expected to glean a deep and hands-on experience being >> steeped in the subject matter, being in a room with like-minded people, >> engaging in class discussions all On-Line? My belief is that things done >> On-Line aren't really real. that's all. Besides, the points you make about >> advantages to a virtually empty campus are, I think valid ones. Those are >> my thoughts. Good luck! >> for today, Car >> 408-209-3239 >> >> At 09:54 PM 4/27/2014, you wrote: >>> Good evening, I hope everyone is doing well. I am faced with a difficult >>> decision this evening. ... whether or not to go to my university and take >>> one class and stay in the dorm for six weeks, or take the same class >>> online. I feel that there are both negative and positive aspects to each >>> of the two decisions. Regardless, I will be attending the University I am >>> writing about in the fall. A couple advantages that icy to being on >>> campus for the six weeks are being able to completely mapped the campus >>> with very few people there, and being able to interact with my professor >>> on a more one to one basis, including in person, and same holds true for >>> the Dss office. I have been on campus before once. I have also sent an >>> email with my accommodation letter to the professor who's class I plan to >>> take if I were to take it face-to-face at the University. Some of my >>> family is hesitant to allow me to do the six week session, and they would >>> rather see me complete the courses online. They say that I would still be >>> able to get to the campus a few days before the start of fall semester, >>> but I feel like I would need more time that way I can know the campus, >>> the city I will be residing in, and the Dss office staff, among other >>> important things. I have had some difficulty with online classes in the >>> past, they were college algebra classes that had an online homework >>> component. The staff at the Dss office has informed me that online >>> classes through the University I will be attending are conducted using >>> blackboard. How accessible, or inaccessible, is blackboard? I have an >>> iPhone, a Mac, and a Windows machine. >>> Also, if faced with this decision, what would you do (which decision >>> would you make), and why would you make that decision? I know in the end >>> it will be my decision to make, I would just like suggestions from each >>> of you. Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may provide. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From zdreicer at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 16:07:52 2014 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 10:07:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: <1398680633.28198.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1398680633.28198.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <688F544D-E4C2-4EB9-B1E7-E2E39785A25E@gmail.com> Hi. I have successfully completed one of the Nfb training centers. Thank you, your message was well-written! Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > On Apr 28, 2014, at 4:23, Leye-Shprintse wrote: > > > BS'D > > Zachary, > > I've both taken classes online and at campus during my two years as a university student. I like both forms, I'm a literature and language student, and I've not had so many problems. > > Since you'll take classes at this college this autumn term, I'd take the class at campus. It'd be a good way to familiarise yourself with the campus, professors and staff and the town where the college is located. A lot of energy always goes to these things in the beginning and if you've the chance to do it earlier and in a more confortable setting why not? > > You'll also have time to find out which things you need to train more on, if this is your first time living from home; cleaning, cooking, shopping etc. > > Good luck with your decision! > > LeSholom, > Leye-Shprintse Öberg <3 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com From zdreicer at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 16:09:37 2014 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 10:09:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: References: <1398680633.28198.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66AA5580-35E8-4929-B573-189220FF9993@gmail.com> Thank you all very much. The final decision will be made later this afternoon… Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > On Apr 28, 2014, at 5:26, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: > > Hi Zack. Great to hear from you. I've taken an online class before > which was a science class. I got a b in the class, which I think was > pretty good. I had to learn how to use canvas which wasn't to bad > after a while. However, my suggestion would be to take the class on > campus. All the reasons you and others have stated are valid points. > You would be able to ask your professor questions directly instead of > having to email him if you need any assistance. A;lso getting to > learn your routes on campus for your different class is also very > crucial. If you had things figured out before you had classes in the > fall, you would be more comfortable because you would already know > your way around even with loads of students on campus. Getting to > know your DS office is also important. I've gotten to know the people > at my DS office quite well. For me, when attending my public college, > I used my DS office a lot in the beginning to get textbooks and > different things, but as the years went on, I didn't use them hardly > at all. I'd also check with your college if they have tutoring > available for classes. My college had a tutoring center which was > totally free for me. I just made an appointment to see tutors on a > weekly basis which greatly helped me in math classes. Like you said > before the decision is ultimately up to you, and I wish you all the > best in whatever you decide. > >> On 4/28/14, Leye-Shprintse wrote: >> >> BS'D >> >> Zachary, >> >> I've both taken classes online and at campus during my two years as a >> university student. I like both forms, I'm a literature and language >> student, and I've not had so many problems. >> >> Since you'll take classes at this college this autumn term, I'd take the >> class at campus. It'd be a good way to familiarise yourself with the campus, >> professors and staff and the town where the college is located. A lot of >> energy always goes to these things in the beginning and if you've the chance >> to do it earlier and in a more confortable setting why not? >> >> You'll also have time to find out which things you need to train more on, if >> this is your first time living from home; cleaning, cooking, shopping etc. >> >> Good luck with your decision! >> >> LeSholom, >> Leye-Shprintse Öberg <3 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 16:50:43 2014 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 11:50:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> <1DCF7AAF-48D3-42BD-9442-87DF34E43A2F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, I took AP stats back in 2008-2009, so I'm sure the course has changed by now. But I didn't have a graphing calculator, and I did well without one. I do remember that there were these AP Stats practice materials from College Board that our class used, and I had those. Some of the units were extremely nonvisual, and others did require graphs and tables. But the graphs aren't super complex, from what I remember. So you could probably describe them pretty easily. I remember AP stats being a lot of writing and interpreting and some formulas. I had to do a lot of studying, but for the most part, accessing the visuals wasn't a huge concern. I hope you have a similar experience without having to study as much as I did. :) On 4/28/14, Phil wrote: > Hi Lillie, > Echoing what Arielle said, you can go through a Stats course without > using graphing function in graphing calculator. I didn't use it when I > took my 3 Stats courses in college either. > You might also want to ask your teacher what software if any is used? > For example, in college intro Stats courses they sometimes use > software called STATA and SPSS. There's also a software called SAS but > highly unlikely to be used in AP Stat. > Hope this helps a bit. > Best, > Phil > > > > On 4/27/14, Greg Aikens wrote: >> I agree. At this point you need to get your parents involved. I love to >> hear >> how you have advocated for yourself, but it sounds as though that avenue >> has >> been ineffective on several issues this year. The next step would be to >> appeal to someone with more authority to advocate on your behalf, and >> your >> parents are the best choice. >> >> I am a TVI and unfortunately I also encounter the negative attitudes you >> guys refer to among my colleagues. The best solution I can think of is to >> have mor blind students go into this field. :) >> >> Best of luck with your advocacy effort. >> >> -Greg >> >> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Lillie, >>> >>> I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he >>> think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the >>> ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be >>> questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, >>> and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed >>> decisions. >>> >>> My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of >>> the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his >>> actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can >>> certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be >>> effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because >>> until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and >>> can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate >>> on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk >>> to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with >>> you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect >>> for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to >>> listen to your parents. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>>> Hi Arielle and all, >>>> >>>> I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with >>>> my >>>> stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and the >>>> teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses >>>> excel >>>> or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she >>>> would >>>> send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work out >>>> what >>>> I needed to do. >>>> >>>> However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I >>>> need >>>> to >>>> start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my >>>> teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was >>>> some >>>> trig that would be on the ACT that I would need to know just as a sort >>>> of >>>> FYI thing to consider, my TVI kept bringing the conversation back to >>>> the >>>> ACT >>>> and math in general, and if she thought I should switch out, although >>>> she >>>> had previously said that it was just a thing to consider. I thanked the >>>> teacher for her concern and said that I had consulted with multiple >>>> sources, >>>> and although there was some trepidation it was not going to be a huge >>>> gaping >>>> concern to me in the long run. I had spoken to my TVI about this >>>> beforehand >>>> and he was not listening to me about the issue. >>>> I walked out of a meeting that was supposed to turn out pretty good >>>> feeling >>>> very concerned and upset; not because of the class, but because of my >>>> TVI's >>>> actions. I respect and understand the fact that he has concerns, but he >>>> is >>>> addressing them in a way that isn't the best. He says stuff like "I >>>> don't >>>> think you can handle this" or "I don't think your parents know what you >>>> are >>>> doing." Although I have my parents entire support on this, he has not >>>> contacted them about it. He tried to get my guidance counselor to >>>> dissuade >>>> me from taking AP classes, but my counselor sited with me. My parents >>>> and >>>> I >>>> have agreed that I need to speak to him on Monday about how that was >>>> probably not the best course of action to take on his part and how I >>>> and >>>> my >>>> parents have made this decision and he needs to respect it. >>>> His actions in this respect and his negative actions in general are >>>> completely destroying what little confidence I had both in blindness >>>> and >>>> as >>>> a person. I feel like I have no right to speak against him or that he >>>> will >>>> not take me seriously no matter how I phraise anything because no >>>> matter >>>> what I'm just a dumb blind teenager who knows absolutely nothing about >>>> her >>>> capabilities or about anything in general. There are incidents besides >>>> this >>>> one where I have felt like I was being questioned. I do not think I >>>> have >>>> done anything to make him question me like this. >>>> He is completely destroying my confidence and I need to salvage what >>>> little >>>> I have left to make him stop treating me like this. I understand that >>>> everyone has different ways of dealing with people, but I do not think >>>> whether he knows it or not, he should not be aiming to destroy my >>>> confidence >>>> or make me feel like I have to prove something to him. I understand >>>> that >>>> not >>>> all of this is his fault and through my actions I have probably done >>>> something to earn this, but I would like to know what. >>>> I apologize for complaining here, and I am not trying to get pitty. I >>>> do >>>> plan to talk to him on Monday so I can at least try to do something >>>> constructive about the situation. He has done some good things, but the >>>> bad >>>> things overshadow the good things he has done. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Lillie >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>> Silverman >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:10 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics >>>> >>>> Hi Lillie, >>>> >>>> I don't know exact answers to most of your questions, but just wanted >>>> to >>>> let >>>> you know that I've taken five statistics courses (including >>>> graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While sighted >>>> students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and the stats >>>> functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are not, you can >>>> definitely participate without using a graphing calculator. In fact, I >>>> think >>>> graphing is a very minor part of the course curriculum. That said, I >>>> don't >>>> know what the AP test looks like, and you might have to use a graphing >>>> calculator on the test. >>>> Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so >>>> you >>>> may want to find out what the regular test requires and then contact >>>> the >>>> college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the normal >>>> requirements >>>> are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the best person to ask >>>> based >>>> on your other posts). >>>> >>>> If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed >>>> descriptions >>>> of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the graph is >>>> important >>>> for understanding the underlying math and interpreting results. I just >>>> did >>>> it to appease the teacher's requirements on exams and such. >>>> You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a >>>> web-based calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ Your teacher may >>>> or >>>> may >>>> not know about GraphPad, but you might offer to use that instead of any >>>> inaccessible software that's required. >>>> Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether >>>> you're >>>> expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations by >>>> calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, using >>>> a >>>> standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic math. I >>>> used >>>> JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note calculator for >>>> computations, and Excel will also work for that. >>>> >>>> Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm >>>> happy >>>> to >>>> consult when you have more specific questions. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>>>> Hi Everyone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the >>>>> teacher of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking >>>>> about before I have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, >>>>> answering these questions would be very helpful. I am not sure how >>>>> college stats classes work, but I'd think they would be similar. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH >>>>> and >>>>> used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille note >>>>> calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any >>>> point >>>>> if I have the calculator and excel available to me? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, >>>>> that >>>>> are inaccessible? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From piano.girl0299 at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 19:33:32 2014 From: piano.girl0299 at gmail.com (Kelsey Nicolay) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 14:33:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] voice lessons Message-ID: <535ead0f.146f320a.6a2c.14be@mx.google.com> Hello, I had to stop taking voice lessons with my current teacher due to personal reasons. I am going to take the summer off, but I am looking to start back up again once choir starts in September since I don't want to lose the skills I gained. Therefore, I am considering a group class. However, there are none in my town. There is one at a music conservatory that someone in the choir goes to, but it's a half hour away in another county. The fore, using transit is not going to work and my family can't always be there to take me. Therefore, would it be acceptable to ask the person if I could ride with her and offer to give her some money for gas? Also, for a blind student, how effective is a group class going to be? With private lessons, the instructor can spend one on one time with you to demonstrate physically certain concepts, but with a group class, that's more difficult. What do you guys think about a blind person doing a group class? I have studied before, so would I be able to handle the group environment? What are some ways I could ensure equal access to the concepts presented in the class? I have heard that group classes aren't always the best for blind people, but it might be my only option. I could easily arrange for music to be brailled since I have a transcriber and someone who can emboss it, so that won't be an issue at all. Would I have to spend additional one on one time with the instructor to solidify my understanding? Anyone with experience with any kind of group musical class, please feel free to share your experiences. Thanks, Kelsey From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Mon Apr 28 19:47:36 2014 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (Leye-Shprintse) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 12:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer Message-ID: <1398714456.72299.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> BS'D Carly, I think that you're very negative; maybe you haven't had good experiences with online education. As for courses on campus; courses online can also be bad; none of them are perfect if you ask me. I've taken online courses on both upper secondary school- and university level and I've some nightmares but also very many fabulous moments! Everything depends on the teacher; if the teacher are a devoted online teacher your studies can be a dream! When I studied Literature at the University of Dalarna, we'd weekly seminaries where we talked with our teacher via Adobë Connect and we could e-mail our teachers with questions and schedule meetings with them on Adobë Connect. I loved that form and I can absolutely Think of return to them again. Some universities are good at online studies and some are absolutely not; it isn't because online studies are bad but instead because of the teachers attitudes to this form of education. I think online studies are a part of the future, people aren't willing to move to get an education anymore. In my country, many people start at the university later; we don't have the 'college culture' which you've in the States. Last but not least, to say that online studies aren't real that's not fair at all. I'm equal to you; I've studied hard and my studies haven't been a dance on roses either only because I've studied online. That's what I call prejudices. LeSholom, Leye-Shprintse <3 From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 20:04:11 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan Silveira) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 16:04:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] voice lessons In-Reply-To: <535ead0f.146f320a.6a2c.14be@mx.google.com> References: <535ead0f.146f320a.6a2c.14be@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Kelsey, First off, I have never heard of voice lessons being offered as a group. There are master classes, where people perform prepared pieces for a voice teacher and are given little mini lessons. These usually are performed in front of a group, but I have never before heard of group voice lessons. Personally, as a trained classical singer, I wouldn’t advocate taking group lessons. Every person has their own individual style of learning, every voice is different and every one needs different instruction. Yes, there are basic techniques that all trained singers should master, but every person masters them at their own pace and in their own way. In my experience, there is no one way to teach voice. In fact, I couldn’t, for example, just give you some technical skills to work on without initially hearing you sing and figuring out where you needed work. I would just think, from my own experience, that taking a group class, without private lessons to supplement what you have learned would only set you back in your vocal training. Those are just my thoughts. If you are still interested in taking the group class, I think it certainly would be acceptable to ask your friend in the choir if she would be able to take you, as long as you are willing to contribute something for gas. Hope this helps. Ryan L. Silveira Corresponding Secretary Ohio Association of Blind Students A Division of the National Federation of the Blind of Ohio (203) 731-7580 ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com On Apr 28, 2014, at 3:33 PM, Kelsey Nicolay wrote: > Hello, > I had to stop taking voice lessons with my current teacher due to > personal reasons. I am going to take the summer off, but I am > looking to start back up again once choir starts in September > since I don't want to lose the skills I gained. Therefore, I am > considering a group class. However, there are none in my town. > There is one at a music conservatory that someone in the choir > goes to, but it's a half hour away in another county. The fore, > using transit is not going to work and my family can't always be > there to take me. Therefore, would it be acceptable to ask the > person if I could ride with her and offer to give her some money > for gas? Also, for a blind student, how effective is a group > class going to be? With private lessons, the instructor can spend > one on one time with you to demonstrate physically certain > concepts, but with a group class, that's more difficult. What do > you guys think about a blind person doing a group class? I have > studied before, so would I be able to handle the group > environment? What are some ways I could ensure equal access to > the concepts presented in the class? I have heard that group > classes aren't always the best for blind people, but it might be > my only option. I could easily arrange for music to be brailled > since I have a transcriber and someone who can emboss it, so that > won't be an issue at all. Would I have to spend additional one > on one time with the instructor to solidify my understanding? > Anyone with experience with any kind of group musical class, > please feel free to share your experiences. > Thanks, > Kelsey > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Mon Apr 28 20:55:25 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 13:55:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home In-Reply-To: <828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> References: <535AC32E.8030608@comcast.net> <828465C2518C4D278B5AA0BE43ABF1E8@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140428135340.01e05e50@comcast.net> Good afternoon, Dr. Robert Sandefur, Get off Beth's back! Her and her love-interest's experience being infantalized at home is one to which we alll can relate and, what Beth says is not nonsense! for today, Car/26/2014, RJ Sandefur wrote: >Beth, This isn't about you! Please quit posting this nonsense on the >list! Dr. Robert Sandefur >----- Original Message ----- From: "wmodnl wmodnl" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 3:22 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Arielle's point about people being infantilized at home > > >>Good afternoon, >>Let's not forget the following paradox that happens. Maybe this was >>mentioned already. I apologize if this was already discussed. >>Remember, on a continuum, people with disabilities receive the >>standard SSI/SSDI funding. As a result, families often view this as >>a extra pay-check. Families will find ways to keep this money >>coming in, for various reasons. Hope this helps. Have a good day. >> >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>>On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:19 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >>> wrote: >>> >>>Dear List, >>>You all are right about the transit issues and the parental >>>treatment of blind peple at their own parents' homes. I was >>>infantilized to the point whre a legal contract was set up so that >>>I couldn't move out. Some parents seriously don't know what >>>they're talking about. Some honestly think it's ok to infantilize >>>their young because of the person's blindness or other >>>disabilities, but it isn't ok. I'm honestly wanting to say >>>something honest: it affects relationships too. Arielle, you were >>>right about the whole thing you posted. It reminds me of my >>>college days, and going to Colorado was something I had to do, it >>>just wasn't something I could simply choose. I feel it was >>>something I absolutely had to do. AS a Coloradan, I'm sorry to >>>say this, but I'm going to do what ever I can with my life to make >>>it full and productive. Happy is another word I would use to >>>describe what I want my life to be. But the thing is, my current >>>boyfriend is being infantilized as Arielle said in her list post, >>>and it's even worse now with his brother who died. I don't know >>>how to tell the rest of the world that I love him without being >>>criticized for being "obsessed" with a "wrong" man. Blake is the >>>right person for me right now, and this infantile behavior that >>>his mother is doing is affecting us. Sorry to vent. >>>Beth >>> >>>-- >>>Check out my Wordpress blog: denverqueen.wordpress.com or you can >>>reach me by skype at denverqueen0920 >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>for nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From piano.girl0299 at gmail.com Mon Apr 28 21:06:23 2014 From: piano.girl0299 at gmail.com (Kelsey Nicolay) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 16:06:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] voice lessons Message-ID: <535ec2d3.0599320a.5ad0.146f@mx.google.com> Hello, I had to stop taking voice lessons with my current teacher due to personal reasons. I am going to take the summer off, but I am looking to start back up again once choir starts in September since I don't want to lose the skills I gained. Therefore, I am considering a group class. However, there are none in my town. There is one at a music conservatory that someone in the choir goes to, but it's a half hour away in another county. The fore, using transit is not going to work and my family can't always be there to take me. Therefore, would it be acceptable to ask the person if I could ride with her and offer to give her some money for gas? Also, for a blind student, how effective is a group class going to be? With private lessons, the instructor can spend one on one time with you to demonstrate physically certain concepts, but with a group class, that's more difficult. What do you guys think about a blind person doing a group class? I have studied before, so would I be able to handle the group environment? What are some ways I could ensure equal access to the concepts presented in the class? I have heard that group classes aren't always the best for blind people, but it might be my only option. I could easily arrange for music to be brailled since I have a transcriber and someone who can emboss it, so that won't be an issue at all. Would I have to spend additional one on one time with the instructor to solidify my understanding? Anyone with experience with any kind of group musical class, please feel free to share your experiences. Thanks, Kelsey From beckyasabo at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 00:36:34 2014 From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (Becky) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 18:36:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: <1398714456.72299.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1398714456.72299.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi all I have to take a online class this summer and this fall. I am worried before. Vecky Sent from my iPhone On Apr 28, 2014, at 1:47 PM, Leye-Shprintse wrote: BS'D Carly, I think that you're very negative; maybe you haven't had good experiences with online education. As for courses on campus; courses online can also be bad; none of them are perfect if you ask me. I've taken online courses on both upper secondary school- and university level and I've some nightmares but also very many fabulous moments! Everything depends on the teacher; if the teacher are a devoted online teacher your studies can be a dream! When I studied Literature at the University of Dalarna, we'd weekly seminaries where we talked with our teacher via Adobë Connect and we could e-mail our teachers with questions and schedule meetings with them on Adobë Connect. I loved that form and I can absolutely Think of return to them again. Some universities are good at online studies and some are absolutely not; it isn't because online studies are bad but instead because of the teachers attitudes to this form of education. I think online studies are a part of the future, people aren't willing to move to get an education anymore. In my country, many people start at the university later; we don't have the 'college culture' which you've in the States. Last but not least, to say that online studies aren't real that's not fair at all. I'm equal to you; I've studied hard and my studies haven't been a dance on roses either only because I've studied online. That's what I call prejudices. LeSholom, Leye-Shprintse <3 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 01:53:37 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 21:53:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Connection Message-ID: Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I'm having a problem with my Internet connection of my laptop computer.Actually, I always have this problem with my Internet connection, but when that happens my dad or my brother helps me with that by using the mouse and finding where to click in order to get connection again! Just to let you know, when I went to the internet right now using JAWS it tells me that you're not connected to a network. How can I fix my network connection with JAWS; I really don't know how to do it since I'm not a computer person! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me with this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) P.S. I really wanted to go to the internet right now, but now I'm not able to do so! By the way, I use JAWS 14 and I have windows 8.Thanks again! ;) :) Sent from my iPhone From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 03:32:10 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 21:32:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: References: <1398714456.72299.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I took an online class once and I had a really hard time keeping myself motivated to do the reading and complete all the assignments on time. My grade in that class was worse than any other grade I've ever received. Granted, this was in high school and the topic wasn't very interesting, but I always think it's easier to stay motivated when I have a set time and place to go and when I am interacting in real time with the teacher and other students. I've also had similar problems when I've tried to audit classes. That could just be me, though, and I'm sure online classes can work quite well if you're willing to be self-motivated and especially if the topic is interesting to you. It might also be cheaper if that is a concern. Best, Arielle On 4/28/14, Becky wrote: > Hi all > I have to take a online class this summer and this fall. I am worried > before. > Vecky > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 28, 2014, at 1:47 PM, Leye-Shprintse wrote: > > > BS'D > > Carly, > > I think that you're very negative; maybe you haven't had good experiences > with online education. As for courses on campus; courses online can also be > bad; none of them are perfect if you ask me. > > I've taken online courses on both upper secondary school- and university > level and I've some nightmares but also very many fabulous moments! > Everything depends on the teacher; if the teacher are a devoted online > teacher your studies can be a dream! When I studied Literature at the > University of Dalarna, we'd weekly seminaries where we talked with our > teacher via Adobë Connect and we could e-mail our teachers with questions > and schedule meetings with them on Adobë Connect. I loved that form and I > can absolutely Think of return to them again. > > Some universities are good at online studies and some are absolutely not; it > isn't because online studies are bad but instead because of the teachers > attitudes to this form of education. > > I think online studies are a part of the future, people aren't willing to > move to get an education anymore. In my country, many people start at the > university later; we don't have the 'college culture' which you've in the > States. > > Last but not least, to say that online studies aren't real that's not fair > at all. I'm equal to you; I've studied hard and my studies haven't been a > dance on roses either only because I've studied online. That's what I call > prejudices. > > LeSholom, > Leye-Shprintse <3 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 03:46:00 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 23:46:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Connection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004c01cf635d$8a018ee0$9e04aca0$@gmail.com> You are connected to the internet if you can email. Try closing your programs out and restarting your computer. Save any work you want to keep first. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 9:54 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Cc: fabs at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Connection Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I'm having a problem with my Internet connection of my laptop computer.Actually, I always have this problem with my Internet connection, but when that happens my dad or my brother helps me with that by using the mouse and finding where to click in order to get connection again! Just to let you know, when I went to the internet right now using JAWS it tells me that you're not connected to a network. How can I fix my network connection with JAWS; I really don't know how to do it since I'm not a computer person! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me with this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) P.S. I really wanted to go to the internet right now, but now I'm not able to do so! By the way, I use JAWS 14 and I have windows 8.Thanks again! ;) :) Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From tyler at tysdomain.com Tue Apr 29 04:02:07 2014 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 00:02:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Connection In-Reply-To: <004c01cf635d$8a018ee0$9e04aca0$@gmail.com> References: <004c01cf635d$8a018ee0$9e04aca0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <535F243F.3030507@tysdomain.com> She is not connected to the internet. Please note the "connected from my IPhone." I'm not sure if it works, but try windows+b, then down arrow to the wireless network. I don't know if windows+b will work on windows 8, however. HTH, On 4/28/2014 11:46 PM, justin williams wrote: > You are connected to the internet if you can email. Try closing your > programs out and restarting your computer. Save any work you want to keep > first. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 9:54 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Cc: fabs at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Connection > > > > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I'm > having a problem with my Internet connection of my laptop computer.Actually, > I always have this problem with my Internet connection, but when that > happens my dad or my brother helps me with that by using the mouse and > finding where to click in order to get connection again! Just to let you > know, when I went to the internet right now using JAWS it tells me that > you're not connected to a network. How can I fix my network connection with > JAWS; I really don't know how to do it since I'm not a computer person! I > will really appreciate it, if you could help me with this. Hope to hear from > you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) P.S. I really wanted to go to > the internet right now, but now I'm not able to do so! By the way, I use > JAWS 14 and I have windows 8.Thanks again! ;) :) Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 05:46:33 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 01:46:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Connection In-Reply-To: <535F243F.3030507@tysdomain.com> References: <004c01cf635d$8a018ee0$9e04aca0$@gmail.com> <535F243F.3030507@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <009001cf636e$610d7ce0$232876a0$@gmail.com> Oh, did see that she sent this from her I phone. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 12:02 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Internet Connection She is not connected to the internet. Please note the "connected from my IPhone." I'm not sure if it works, but try windows+b, then down arrow to the wireless network. I don't know if windows+b will work on windows 8, however. HTH, On 4/28/2014 11:46 PM, justin williams wrote: > You are connected to the internet if you can email. Try closing your > programs out and restarting your computer. Save any work you want to > keep first. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga > Schreiber > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 9:54 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Cc: fabs at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Connection > > > > Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that > I'm having a problem with my Internet connection of my laptop > computer.Actually, I always have this problem with my Internet > connection, but when that happens my dad or my brother helps me with > that by using the mouse and finding where to click in order to get > connection again! Just to let you know, when I went to the internet > right now using JAWS it tells me that you're not connected to a > network. How can I fix my network connection with JAWS; I really don't > know how to do it since I'm not a computer person! I will really > appreciate it, if you could help me with this. Hope to hear from you > soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) P.S. I really wanted to go to > the internet right now, but now I'm not able to do so! By the way, I > use JAWS 14 and I have windows 8.Thanks again! ;) :) Sent from my > iPhone _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Tue Apr 29 13:42:57 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 08:42:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140428071519.01e05e50@comcast.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20140428071519.01e05e50@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00ea01cf63b0$ee0f2e80$ca2d8b80$@mediacombb.net> Hi, As I believe someone already said, online is where the future is headed. I love classes on line. I'm not going to say they are for everyone. But they are a great thing for certain situations. As to it being real or not, It is no more or less real than sitting in a classroom with people. Schools are going to have to reach out to our mobile population. If we are going to keep demanding that we have higher and higher credentials for jobs, then we've got to have a way to obtain them. Online can fit in to your schedule many times when attending a class in a traditional setting will not. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 9:21 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer Good morning, I ought to make clear my position of studying anything "On-Line" not being a good idea, particularly if you deeply care for the material. I mean, how is one expected to glean a deep and hands-on experience being steeped in the subject matter, being in a room with like-minded people, engaging in class discussions all On-Line? My belief is that things done On-Line aren't really real. that's all. Besides, the points you make about advantages to a virtually empty campus are, I think valid ones. Those are my thoughts. Good luck! for today, Car 408-209-3239 At 09:54 PM 4/27/2014, you wrote: >Good evening, I hope everyone is doing well. I am faced with a >difficult decision this evening. ... whether or not to go to my >university and take one class and stay in the dorm for six weeks, or >take the same class online. I feel that there are both negative and >positive aspects to each of the two decisions. >Regardless, I will be attending the University I am writing about in >the fall. A couple advantages that icy to being on campus for the six >weeks are being able to completely mapped the campus with very few >people there, and being able to interact with my professor on a more >one to one basis, including in person, and same holds true for the Dss >office. I have been on campus before once. I have also sent an email >with my accommodation letter to the professor who's class I plan to >take if I were to take it face-to-face at the University. >Some of my family is hesitant to allow me to do the six week session, >and they would rather see me complete the courses online. >They say that I would still be able to get to the campus a few days >before the start of fall semester, but I feel like I would need more >time that way I can know the campus, the city I will be residing in, >and the Dss office staff, among other important things. >I have had some difficulty with online classes in the past, they were >college algebra classes that had an online homework component. >The staff at the Dss office has informed me that online classes through >the University I will be attending are conducted using blackboard. How >accessible, or inaccessible, is blackboard? I have an iPhone, a Mac, >and a Windows machine. > Also, if faced with this decision, what would you do (which >decision would you make), and why would you make that decision? I know >in the end it will be my decision to make, I would just like >suggestions from each of you. Thank you in advance for any suggestions >you may provide. > >Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. >net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Tue Apr 29 20:02:59 2014 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (Leye-Shprintse) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 13:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] In person versus online for the summer Message-ID: <1398801779.5801.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> BS'D Becky, This is how I would do it; bene note, I am not located in the United States. Firstly, I would contact the university and ask if their course platform is accessible with screen readers such as JAWS and VoiceOver. Secondly, I would contact the department which gives the courses and tell them that I am blind and need the material in an accessible format. I would request to get the list of literature now so that I would have time to get it before the courses start. I would also Contact the teacher and give a bref introduction of myself and beg he or she to Contact me if they have some questions. If you have asked all questions before your course start it will be any problems, G-d willing. Finally, my experience is that you need to be well prepared before you start your courses, then you have done anything in your power to get it to work. Good luck! LeSholom, Leye-Shprintse <3 From alpineimagination at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 23:13:26 2014 From: alpineimagination at gmail.com (Vejas) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 16:13:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] serious apex problem Message-ID: <53603250.0466420a.2f8a.709b@mx.google.com> Hi all, I just posted this on the braille-note list, so you may have already seen this, but I know there are many people that are on this list that aren't on the braille-note one. My younger brother and I both have braille-note apexes. My brother's Apex is having a very serious problem. It froze up in a file, and when he reset, it got stuck on the number 33. He tried resetting several times. We have plugged in the ac adapter, and have also tried 4-5-6 resets, but still nothing; it always gets stuck at 33. Is there any way to fix this without him having to send it in? Thanks, Vejas From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 23:59:01 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 17:59:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> <1DCF7AAF-48D3-42BD-9442-87DF34E43A2F@gmail.com> Message-ID: For anyone taking either AP stats or intro stats in college, I would highly recommend using www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs to access your critical values instead of trying to read the tables in the back of your textbook. I used the textbook tables when I took the course ten years ago, but no matter how you have your textbook, accessing those tables is bound to be at least a little annoying, especially if you have a multi-volume Braille book. On the Graphpad website, however, you can just select "distributions and interpreting p-values" from the main page, then select "calculate p, t or z from a probability" then put in your probability as .05 and it will spit out the critical values for your particular test. I'm sure this doesn't make much sense if you haven't taken the course yet, but you can hang on to this email for future reference. In addition, critical values can be calculated in Excel. I don't remember the formula, but can look it up and send it to you if you need it. Best, Arielle On 4/28/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: > Hi Lillie, > > I took AP stats back in 2008-2009, so I'm sure the course has changed > by now. But I didn't have a graphing calculator, and I did well > without one. I do remember that there were these AP Stats practice > materials from College Board that our class used, and I had those. > > Some of the units were extremely nonvisual, and others did require > graphs and tables. But the graphs aren't super complex, from what I > remember. So you could probably describe them pretty easily. I > remember AP stats being a lot of writing and interpreting and some > formulas. I had to do a lot of studying, but for the most part, > accessing the visuals wasn't a huge concern. I hope you have a > similar experience without having to study as much as I did. :) > > > > On 4/28/14, Phil wrote: >> Hi Lillie, >> Echoing what Arielle said, you can go through a Stats course without >> using graphing function in graphing calculator. I didn't use it when I >> took my 3 Stats courses in college either. >> You might also want to ask your teacher what software if any is used? >> For example, in college intro Stats courses they sometimes use >> software called STATA and SPSS. There's also a software called SAS but >> highly unlikely to be used in AP Stat. >> Hope this helps a bit. >> Best, >> Phil >> >> >> >> On 4/27/14, Greg Aikens wrote: >>> I agree. At this point you need to get your parents involved. I love to >>> hear >>> how you have advocated for yourself, but it sounds as though that avenue >>> has >>> been ineffective on several issues this year. The next step would be to >>> appeal to someone with more authority to advocate on your behalf, and >>> your >>> parents are the best choice. >>> >>> I am a TVI and unfortunately I also encounter the negative attitudes you >>> guys refer to among my colleagues. The best solution I can think of is >>> to >>> have mor blind students go into this field. :) >>> >>> Best of luck with your advocacy effort. >>> >>> -Greg >>> >>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Lillie, >>>> >>>> I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he >>>> think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the >>>> ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be >>>> questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, >>>> and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed >>>> decisions. >>>> >>>> My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of >>>> the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his >>>> actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can >>>> certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be >>>> effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because >>>> until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and >>>> can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate >>>> on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk >>>> to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with >>>> you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect >>>> for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to >>>> listen to your parents. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>>>> Hi Arielle and all, >>>>> >>>>> I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with >>>>> my >>>>> stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and >>>>> the >>>>> teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses >>>>> excel >>>>> or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she >>>>> would >>>>> send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work >>>>> out >>>>> what >>>>> I needed to do. >>>>> >>>>> However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I >>>>> need >>>>> to >>>>> start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my >>>>> teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was >>>>> some >>>>> trig that would be on the ACT that I would need to know just as a sort >>>>> of >>>>> FYI thing to consider, my TVI kept bringing the conversation back to >>>>> the >>>>> ACT >>>>> and math in general, and if she thought I should switch out, although >>>>> she >>>>> had previously said that it was just a thing to consider. I thanked >>>>> the >>>>> teacher for her concern and said that I had consulted with multiple >>>>> sources, >>>>> and although there was some trepidation it was not going to be a huge >>>>> gaping >>>>> concern to me in the long run. I had spoken to my TVI about this >>>>> beforehand >>>>> and he was not listening to me about the issue. >>>>> I walked out of a meeting that was supposed to turn out pretty good >>>>> feeling >>>>> very concerned and upset; not because of the class, but because of my >>>>> TVI's >>>>> actions. I respect and understand the fact that he has concerns, but >>>>> he >>>>> is >>>>> addressing them in a way that isn't the best. He says stuff like "I >>>>> don't >>>>> think you can handle this" or "I don't think your parents know what >>>>> you >>>>> are >>>>> doing." Although I have my parents entire support on this, he has not >>>>> contacted them about it. He tried to get my guidance counselor to >>>>> dissuade >>>>> me from taking AP classes, but my counselor sited with me. My parents >>>>> and >>>>> I >>>>> have agreed that I need to speak to him on Monday about how that was >>>>> probably not the best course of action to take on his part and how I >>>>> and >>>>> my >>>>> parents have made this decision and he needs to respect it. >>>>> His actions in this respect and his negative actions in general are >>>>> completely destroying what little confidence I had both in blindness >>>>> and >>>>> as >>>>> a person. I feel like I have no right to speak against him or that he >>>>> will >>>>> not take me seriously no matter how I phraise anything because no >>>>> matter >>>>> what I'm just a dumb blind teenager who knows absolutely nothing about >>>>> her >>>>> capabilities or about anything in general. There are incidents besides >>>>> this >>>>> one where I have felt like I was being questioned. I do not think I >>>>> have >>>>> done anything to make him question me like this. >>>>> He is completely destroying my confidence and I need to salvage what >>>>> little >>>>> I have left to make him stop treating me like this. I understand that >>>>> everyone has different ways of dealing with people, but I do not think >>>>> whether he knows it or not, he should not be aiming to destroy my >>>>> confidence >>>>> or make me feel like I have to prove something to him. I understand >>>>> that >>>>> not >>>>> all of this is his fault and through my actions I have probably done >>>>> something to earn this, but I would like to know what. >>>>> I apologize for complaining here, and I am not trying to get pitty. I >>>>> do >>>>> plan to talk to him on Monday so I can at least try to do something >>>>> constructive about the situation. He has done some good things, but >>>>> the >>>>> bad >>>>> things overshadow the good things he has done. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Lillie >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>>> Silverman >>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:10 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics >>>>> >>>>> Hi Lillie, >>>>> >>>>> I don't know exact answers to most of your questions, but just wanted >>>>> to >>>>> let >>>>> you know that I've taken five statistics courses (including >>>>> graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While >>>>> sighted >>>>> students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and the stats >>>>> functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are not, you can >>>>> definitely participate without using a graphing calculator. In fact, I >>>>> think >>>>> graphing is a very minor part of the course curriculum. That said, I >>>>> don't >>>>> know what the AP test looks like, and you might have to use a graphing >>>>> calculator on the test. >>>>> Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so >>>>> you >>>>> may want to find out what the regular test requires and then contact >>>>> the >>>>> college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the normal >>>>> requirements >>>>> are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the best person to ask >>>>> based >>>>> on your other posts). >>>>> >>>>> If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed >>>>> descriptions >>>>> of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the graph is >>>>> important >>>>> for understanding the underlying math and interpreting results. I just >>>>> did >>>>> it to appease the teacher's requirements on exams and such. >>>>> You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a >>>>> web-based calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ Your teacher may >>>>> or >>>>> may >>>>> not know about GraphPad, but you might offer to use that instead of >>>>> any >>>>> inaccessible software that's required. >>>>> Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether >>>>> you're >>>>> expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations by >>>>> calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, using >>>>> a >>>>> standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic math. I >>>>> used >>>>> JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note calculator for >>>>> computations, and Excel will also work for that. >>>>> >>>>> Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm >>>>> happy >>>>> to >>>>> consult when you have more specific questions. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>>>>> Hi Everyone >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the >>>>>> teacher of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking >>>>>> about before I have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, >>>>>> answering these questions would be very helpful. I am not sure how >>>>>> college stats classes work, but I'd think they would be similar. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH >>>>>> and >>>>>> used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille >>>>>> note >>>>>> calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any >>>>> point >>>>>> if I have the calculator and excel available to me? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, >>>>>> that >>>>>> are inaccessible? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From zdreicer at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 00:33:42 2014 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:33:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] serious apex problem In-Reply-To: <53603250.0466420a.2f8a.709b@mx.google.com> References: <53603250.0466420a.2f8a.709b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Try taking the battery out and putting it back in, also try a 123 reset Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > On Apr 29, 2014, at 17:13, Vejas wrote: > > Hi all, > I just posted this on the braille-note list, so you may have already seen this, but I know there are many people that are on this list that aren't on the braille-note one. > My younger brother and I both have braille-note apexes. > My brother's Apex is having a very serious problem. It froze up in a file, and when he reset, it got stuck on the number 33. He tried resetting several times. > We have plugged in the ac adapter, and have also tried 4-5-6 resets, but still nothing; it always gets stuck at 33. > Is there any way to fix this without him having to send it in? > Thanks, > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com From musicproandy at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 01:40:49 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 21:40:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] serious apex problem In-Reply-To: References: <53603250.0466420a.2f8a.709b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Try a service reset. On 4/29/14, Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer wrote: > Try taking the battery out and putting it back in, also try a 123 reset > > Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > >> On Apr 29, 2014, at 17:13, Vejas wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I just posted this on the braille-note list, so you may have already seen >> this, but I know there are many people that are on this list that aren't >> on the braille-note one. >> My younger brother and I both have braille-note apexes. >> My brother's Apex is having a very serious problem. It froze up in a >> file, and when he reset, it got stuck on the number 33. He tried >> resetting several times. >> We have plugged in the ac adapter, and have also tried 4-5-6 resets, but >> still nothing; it always gets stuck at 33. >> Is there any way to fix this without him having to send it in? >> Thanks, >> Vejas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 02:31:36 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 20:31:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] SUNY Binghamton Message-ID: Hi all, A blind woman I know from another list is thinking about pursuing a linguistics degree at SUNY Binghamton. If anybody has experience there, could you email me off-list at arielle71 at gmail.com Thanks, Arielle From lilliepennington at fuse.net Wed Apr 30 02:41:35 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 22:41:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> <1DCF7AAF-48D3-42BD-9442-87DF34E43A2F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ADE92B4-14B8-47C1-89D7-202D6E0DB57B@fuse.net> Hi Julie The part about the different units was very helpful. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 28, 2014, at 12:50 PM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > > I took AP stats back in 2008-2009, so I'm sure the course has changed > by now. But I didn't have a graphing calculator, and I did well > without one. I do remember that there were these AP Stats practice > materials from College Board that our class used, and I had those. > > Some of the units were extremely nonvisual, and others did require > graphs and tables. But the graphs aren't super complex, from what I > remember. So you could probably describe them pretty easily. I > remember AP stats being a lot of writing and interpreting and some > formulas. I had to do a lot of studying, but for the most part, > accessing the visuals wasn't a huge concern. I hope you have a > similar experience without having to study as much as I did. :) > > > >> On 4/28/14, Phil wrote: >> Hi Lillie, >> Echoing what Arielle said, you can go through a Stats course without >> using graphing function in graphing calculator. I didn't use it when I >> took my 3 Stats courses in college either. >> You might also want to ask your teacher what software if any is used? >> For example, in college intro Stats courses they sometimes use >> software called STATA and SPSS. There's also a software called SAS but >> highly unlikely to be used in AP Stat. >> Hope this helps a bit. >> Best, >> Phil >> >> >> >>> On 4/27/14, Greg Aikens wrote: >>> I agree. At this point you need to get your parents involved. I love to >>> hear >>> how you have advocated for yourself, but it sounds as though that avenue >>> has >>> been ineffective on several issues this year. The next step would be to >>> appeal to someone with more authority to advocate on your behalf, and >>> your From lilliepennington at fuse.net Wed Apr 30 02:44:33 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 22:44:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] AP statistics In-Reply-To: References: <000601cf5b80$de8a49a0$9b9edce0$@net> <003f01cf60bf$55bbe130$0133a390$@net> <1DCF7AAF-48D3-42BD-9442-87DF34E43A2F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6CD3D37F-EC7D-4F62-BACE-A47656FB88E2@fuse.net> Thank you for this. I will definitely try this over looking at four page Braille tables. :) Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 29, 2014, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > For anyone taking either AP stats or intro stats in college, I would > highly recommend using > www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs > to access your critical values instead of trying to read the tables in > the back of your textbook. I used the textbook tables when I took the > course ten years ago, but no matter how you have your textbook, > accessing those tables is bound to be at least a little annoying, > especially if you have a multi-volume Braille book. > On the Graphpad website, however, you can just select "distributions > and interpreting p-values" from the main page, then select "calculate > p, t or z from a probability" then put in your probability as .05 and > it will spit out the critical values for your particular test. > I'm sure this doesn't make much sense if you haven't taken the course > yet, but you can hang on to this email for future reference. In > addition, critical values can be calculated in Excel. I don't remember > the formula, but can look it up and send it to you if you need it. > > Best, > Arielle > >> On 4/28/14, Julie McGinnity wrote: >> Hi Lillie, >> >> I took AP stats back in 2008-2009, so I'm sure the course has changed >> by now. But I didn't have a graphing calculator, and I did well >> without one. I do remember that there were these AP Stats practice >> materials from College Board that our class used, and I had those. >> >> Some of the units were extremely nonvisual, and others did require >> graphs and tables. But the graphs aren't super complex, from what I >> remember. So you could probably describe them pretty easily. I >> remember AP stats being a lot of writing and interpreting and some >> formulas. I had to do a lot of studying, but for the most part, >> accessing the visuals wasn't a huge concern. I hope you have a >> similar experience without having to study as much as I did. :) >> >> >> >>> On 4/28/14, Phil wrote: >>> Hi Lillie, >>> Echoing what Arielle said, you can go through a Stats course without >>> using graphing function in graphing calculator. I didn't use it when I >>> took my 3 Stats courses in college either. >>> You might also want to ask your teacher what software if any is used? >>> For example, in college intro Stats courses they sometimes use >>> software called STATA and SPSS. There's also a software called SAS but >>> highly unlikely to be used in AP Stat. >>> Hope this helps a bit. >>> Best, >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 4/27/14, Greg Aikens wrote: >>>> I agree. At this point you need to get your parents involved. I love to >>>> hear >>>> how you have advocated for yourself, but it sounds as though that avenue >>>> has >>>> been ineffective on several issues this year. The next step would be to >>>> appeal to someone with more authority to advocate on your behalf, and >>>> your >>>> parents are the best choice. >>>> >>>> I am a TVI and unfortunately I also encounter the negative attitudes you >>>> guys refer to among my colleagues. The best solution I can think of is >>>> to >>>> have mor blind students go into this field. :) >>>> >>>> Best of luck with your advocacy effort. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> >>>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Lillie, >>>>> >>>>> I am a little confused about what your TVI is recommending. Does he >>>>> think you should take trig instead, or that you shouldn't take the >>>>> ACT? Either way I completely agree it is not his place to be >>>>> questioning your choice of courses. He is not a guidance counselor, >>>>> and even if he were, he is still bound to respect your informed >>>>> decisions. >>>>> >>>>> My guess is that this guy has a power complex and that may be part of >>>>> the reason he has decided to teach blind students. I do not think his >>>>> actions are based on anything you have done in the past. You can >>>>> certainly try talking to him, but I am not sure if it will be >>>>> effective. It is great that your parents are supporting you because >>>>> until you turn 18 they are primarily in charge of your education and >>>>> can overrule anything your TVI does or at least can legally advocate >>>>> on your behalf. I would strongly suggest having your mom or dad talk >>>>> to your TVI about his actions and perhaps even request a meeting with >>>>> you and he to discuss his actions. Your TVI may not have much respect >>>>> for blind teens and may not listen to you but he is obligated to >>>>> listen to your parents. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 4/25/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>>>>> Hi Arielle and all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I apologize for my horrible email responsive habits again. I met with >>>>>> my >>>>>> stats teacher today for next year. The meeting itself was good, and >>>>>> the >>>>>> teacher seemed willing to work with me. She said that she rarely uses >>>>>> excel >>>>>> or hand graphs and instead uses a graphing calculator. She said she >>>>>> would >>>>>> send me a list of functions so that I could have the summer to work >>>>>> out >>>>>> what >>>>>> I needed to do. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, one thing that did not go well was my TVI. I apologize if I >>>>>> need >>>>>> to >>>>>> start a new thread for this. While he did let me deal directly with my >>>>>> teacher (which surprised me), when my teacher mentioned that there was >>>>>> some >>>>>> trig that would be on the ACT that I would need to know just as a sort >>>>>> of >>>>>> FYI thing to consider, my TVI kept bringing the conversation back to >>>>>> the >>>>>> ACT >>>>>> and math in general, and if she thought I should switch out, although >>>>>> she >>>>>> had previously said that it was just a thing to consider. I thanked >>>>>> the >>>>>> teacher for her concern and said that I had consulted with multiple >>>>>> sources, >>>>>> and although there was some trepidation it was not going to be a huge >>>>>> gaping >>>>>> concern to me in the long run. I had spoken to my TVI about this >>>>>> beforehand >>>>>> and he was not listening to me about the issue. >>>>>> I walked out of a meeting that was supposed to turn out pretty good >>>>>> feeling >>>>>> very concerned and upset; not because of the class, but because of my >>>>>> TVI's >>>>>> actions. I respect and understand the fact that he has concerns, but >>>>>> he >>>>>> is >>>>>> addressing them in a way that isn't the best. He says stuff like "I >>>>>> don't >>>>>> think you can handle this" or "I don't think your parents know what >>>>>> you >>>>>> are >>>>>> doing." Although I have my parents entire support on this, he has not >>>>>> contacted them about it. He tried to get my guidance counselor to >>>>>> dissuade >>>>>> me from taking AP classes, but my counselor sited with me. My parents >>>>>> and >>>>>> I >>>>>> have agreed that I need to speak to him on Monday about how that was >>>>>> probably not the best course of action to take on his part and how I >>>>>> and >>>>>> my >>>>>> parents have made this decision and he needs to respect it. >>>>>> His actions in this respect and his negative actions in general are >>>>>> completely destroying what little confidence I had both in blindness >>>>>> and >>>>>> as >>>>>> a person. I feel like I have no right to speak against him or that he >>>>>> will >>>>>> not take me seriously no matter how I phraise anything because no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> what I'm just a dumb blind teenager who knows absolutely nothing about >>>>>> her >>>>>> capabilities or about anything in general. There are incidents besides >>>>>> this >>>>>> one where I have felt like I was being questioned. I do not think I >>>>>> have >>>>>> done anything to make him question me like this. >>>>>> He is completely destroying my confidence and I need to salvage what >>>>>> little >>>>>> I have left to make him stop treating me like this. I understand that >>>>>> everyone has different ways of dealing with people, but I do not think >>>>>> whether he knows it or not, he should not be aiming to destroy my >>>>>> confidence >>>>>> or make me feel like I have to prove something to him. I understand >>>>>> that >>>>>> not >>>>>> all of this is his fault and through my actions I have probably done >>>>>> something to earn this, but I would like to know what. >>>>>> I apologize for complaining here, and I am not trying to get pitty. I >>>>>> do >>>>>> plan to talk to him on Monday so I can at least try to do something >>>>>> constructive about the situation. He has done some good things, but >>>>>> the >>>>>> bad >>>>>> things overshadow the good things he has done. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Lillie >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>>>> Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:10 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] AP statistics >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Lillie, >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know exact answers to most of your questions, but just wanted >>>>>> to >>>>>> let >>>>>> you know that I've taken five statistics courses (including >>>>>> graduate-level) without ever using a graphing calculator. While >>>>>> sighted >>>>>> students might be expected to use a graphing calculator and the stats >>>>>> functions on yours might be accessible, even if they are not, you can >>>>>> definitely participate without using a graphing calculator. In fact, I >>>>>> think >>>>>> graphing is a very minor part of the course curriculum. That said, I >>>>>> don't >>>>>> know what the AP test looks like, and you might have to use a graphing >>>>>> calculator on the test. >>>>>> Sometimes the graphing requirements are altered for blind students, so >>>>>> you >>>>>> may want to find out what the regular test requires and then contact >>>>>> the >>>>>> college board to see if any inaccessible parts of the normal >>>>>> requirements >>>>>> are modified (I'm guessing your TVI may not be the best person to ask >>>>>> based >>>>>> on your other posts). >>>>>> >>>>>> If hand-graphing is required, I always just wrote out detailed >>>>>> descriptions >>>>>> of the graphs. Again, I don't think actually seeing the graph is >>>>>> important >>>>>> for understanding the underlying math and interpreting results. I just >>>>>> did >>>>>> it to appease the teacher's requirements on exams and such. >>>>>> You can do most of the required calculations either in Excel or with a >>>>>> web-based calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ Your teacher may >>>>>> or >>>>>> may >>>>>> not know about GraphPad, but you might offer to use that instead of >>>>>> any >>>>>> inaccessible software that's required. >>>>>> Braille Note stats functions may also work, but it depends on whether >>>>>> you're >>>>>> expected to calculate basics like means and standard deviations by >>>>>> calculator or by hand. In college stats we had to do it by hand, using >>>>>> a >>>>>> standard calculator to compute square roots and other basic math. I >>>>>> used >>>>>> JAWS to read me the data and then used my Braille Note calculator for >>>>>> computations, and Excel will also work for that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry I can't offer more help without knowing more details, but I'm >>>>>> happy >>>>>> to >>>>>> consult when you have more specific questions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/18/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Everyone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will be taking AP statistics next year. I am going to contact the >>>>>>> teacher of the class next week, but I want to know what I am talking >>>>>>> about before I have a meeting. If anyone has taken this class, >>>>>>> answering these questions would be very helpful. I am not sure how >>>>>>> college stats classes work, but I'd think they would be similar. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Are graphing calculators needed? I have the TI84 from APH >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> used it this year. Are the statistical functions accessible? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2. Is excel used? Roughly what parts? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3. What about the statistical functions part of the Braille >>>>>>> note >>>>>>> calculator? Is this used? Again, what functions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4. Roughly are there any new Nemeth symbols introduced? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 5. Is there any reason I would have to hand-draw a graph at any >>>>>> point >>>>>>> if I have the calculator and excel available to me? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 6. Are there parts of the course, minus inaccessible software, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> are inaccessible? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. >>>>>> net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From pgradioman at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 04:21:27 2014 From: pgradioman at hotmail.com (Preston Gaylor) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 04:21:27 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] =?utf-8?q?serious_apex_problem?= Message-ID: Try a 1-2-3 reset, or a service reset. Good luck! Preston Sent from Windows Mail From: Zach Griego-Dreicer Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎29‎, ‎2014 ‎6‎:‎34‎ ‎PM To: Nabs-l Try taking the battery out and putting it back in, also try a 123 reset Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > On Apr 29, 2014, at 17:13, Vejas wrote: > > Hi all, > I just posted this on the braille-note list, so you may have already seen this, but I know there are many people that are on this list that aren't on the braille-note one. > My younger brother and I both have braille-note apexes. > My brother's Apex is having a very serious problem. It froze up in a file, and when he reset, it got stuck on the number 33. He tried resetting several times. > We have plugged in the ac adapter, and have also tried 4-5-6 resets, but still nothing; it always gets stuck at 33. > Is there any way to fix this without him having to send it in? > Thanks, > Vejas > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40hotmail.com From member at linkedin.com Wed Apr 30 08:31:42 2014 From: member at linkedin.com (Danielle Fernandez via LinkedIn) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 08:31:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Eric, please add me to your LinkedIn network Message-ID: <1918232976.11153780.1398846702182.JavaMail.app@ela4-app2317.prod> LinkedIn ------------ Danielle Fernandez has indicated you are a Friend ------------------------------------------ Since you are a person I trust, I wanted to invite you to join my network on LinkedIn. Accept invitation from Danielle Fernandez http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-humd7ja8-4u/2LScsQM0ZAGW3fi7AMe09Fk_pJsa/blk/I768788542_11/0UcDpKqiRzolZKqiRybmRSrCBvrmRLoORIrmkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYNclYOd3kUe3sUdzt9bPthpyRxsmtMbPgOdz0VdzcVcjoMcPwUcjsSe3kLrCBxbOYWrSlI/eml-comm_invm-b-in_ac-inv28/?hs=false&tok=1kJq3fFc6_LCc1 View profile of Danielle Fernandez http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-humd7ja8-4u/rso/185627366/kAfc/name/85813888_I768788542_11/?hs=false&tok=3YB6iJQ06_LCc1 ------------------------------------------ You are receiving Invitation emails. This email was intended for Eric Gaudes. Learn why this is included: http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-humd7ja8-4u/plh/http%3A%2F%2Fhelp%2Elinkedin%2Ecom%2Fapp%2Fanswers%2Fdetail%2Fa_id%2F4788/-GXI/?hs=false&tok=1SBqXku--_LCc1 (c) 2012, LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 11:56:53 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 07:56:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] serious apex problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C7455A8-8420-465C-BDDE-2319DCB15BEA@gmail.com> When this has happened to me, holding the button down until it beeps and starts to reset again will usually work. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 30, 2014, at 12:21 AM, Preston Gaylor wrote: > > Try a 1-2-3 reset, or a service reset. > > Good luck! > > Preston > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > From: Zach Griego-Dreicer > Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎29‎, ‎2014 ‎6‎:‎34‎ ‎PM > To: Nabs-l > > > > > > Try taking the battery out and putting it back in, also try a 123 reset > > Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > >> On Apr 29, 2014, at 17:13, Vejas wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I just posted this on the braille-note list, so you may have already seen this, but I know there are many people that are on this list that aren't on the braille-note one. >> My younger brother and I both have braille-note apexes. >> My brother's Apex is having a very serious problem. It froze up in a file, and when he reset, it got stuck on the number 33. He tried resetting several times. >> We have plugged in the ac adapter, and have also tried 4-5-6 resets, but still nothing; it always gets stuck at 33. >> Is there any way to fix this without him having to send it in? >> Thanks, >> Vejas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From member at linkedin.com Wed Apr 30 19:20:39 2014 From: member at linkedin.com (Thomas Peralta via LinkedIn) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 19:20:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Eric, please add me to your LinkedIn network Message-ID: <1535935013.25647977.1398885639313.JavaMail.app@ela4-app2321.prod> LinkedIn ------------ Thomas Peralta requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: ------------------------------------------ Eric, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Thomas Accept invitation from Thomas Peralta http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-hun0e3d6-59/2LScsQM0ZAGW3fi7AMe09Fk_pJsa/blk/I769184172_11/0UcDpKqiRzolZKqiRybmRSrCBvrmRLoORIrmkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYNclYOdP4Qe34Vdzt9bORlrkNUoPxybP8PczcSd3oUejwNdz4RcPsSe3kLrCBxbOYWrSlI/eml-comm_invm-b-in_ac-inv28/?hs=false&tok=23_nROcVp8Mmc1 View profile of Thomas Peralta http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-hun0e3d6-59/rso/152164328/bql4/name/85813888_I769184172_11/?hs=false&tok=0L3fsqzct8Mmc1 ------------------------------------------ You are receiving Invitation emails. This email was intended for Eric Gaudes. Learn why this is included: http://www.linkedin.com/e/-qot5zu-hun0e3d6-59/plh/http%3A%2F%2Fhelp%2Elinkedin%2Ecom%2Fapp%2Fanswers%2Fdetail%2Fa_id%2F4788/-GXI/?hs=false&tok=0sdMjTqsl8Mmc1 (c) 2012, LinkedIn Corporation. 2029 Stierlin Ct, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA. From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 20:18:10 2014 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 15:18:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] serious apex problem In-Reply-To: <8C7455A8-8420-465C-BDDE-2319DCB15BEA@gmail.com> References: <8C7455A8-8420-465C-BDDE-2319DCB15BEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7807F651-5006-4B7E-A43A-791BB63B5C3E@gmail.com> I HATE that. Removing the battery should fix it. Sophie Trist Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 30, 2014, at 6:56 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > When this has happened to me, holding the button down until it beeps and starts to reset again will usually work. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 30, 2014, at 12:21 AM, Preston Gaylor wrote: >> >> Try a 1-2-3 reset, or a service reset. >> >> Good luck! >> >> Preston >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Windows Mail >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Zach Griego-Dreicer >> Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎April‎ ‎29‎, ‎2014 ‎6‎:‎34‎ ‎PM >> To: Nabs-l >> >> >> >> >> >> Try taking the battery out and putting it back in, also try a 123 reset >> >> Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver >> >>> On Apr 29, 2014, at 17:13, Vejas wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I just posted this on the braille-note list, so you may have already seen this, but I know there are many people that are on this list that aren't on the braille-note one. >>> My younger brother and I both have braille-note apexes. >>> My brother's Apex is having a very serious problem. It froze up in a file, and when he reset, it got stuck on the number 33. He tried resetting several times. >>> We have plugged in the ac adapter, and have also tried 4-5-6 resets, but still nothing; it always gets stuck at 33. >>> Is there any way to fix this without him having to send it in? >>> Thanks, >>> Vejas >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareader%40gmail.com From lilrichie411 at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 22:51:46 2014 From: lilrichie411 at gmail.com (Jordan Richardson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:51:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Services for the Blind in Chicago Message-ID: <8B930ECB-3873-4A78-9CEF-FD252F1ECC45@gmail.com> Hi everybody, I have a question about Chicago. What experiences can anyone share about services provided from the state agency? What is public transportation like? Happy Wednesday! Jordan Jordan Richardson Community Corps Member Minnesota Reading Corps. |. AmeriCorps State & National Sent from my iPad From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 23:04:40 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 16:04:40 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Services for the Blind in Chicago In-Reply-To: <8B930ECB-3873-4A78-9CEF-FD252F1ECC45@gmail.com> References: <8B930ECB-3873-4A78-9CEF-FD252F1ECC45@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jordan, Hope your service year is going well. Sounds like you picked a model program to serve in and I have no doubt you are only improving it’s reputation I have a contact in Chicago I’ll be happy to connect you with. I’ll contact you off-list. On Apr 30, 2014, at 3:51 PM, Jordan Richardson wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I have a question about Chicago. What experiences can anyone share about services provided from the state agency? What is public transportation like? > > Happy Wednesday! > > Jordan > > Jordan Richardson > Community Corps Member > Minnesota Reading Corps. |. AmeriCorps State & National > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com