[nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities?

Carly Mihalakis carlymih at comcast.net
Tue Apr 1 12:38:26 UTC 2014


Good morning, Kaiti,

         Growing up, one of my schoolmates, Corrina, had Usher's 
syndrom so was effectively deafblind. I remember it being difficult 
to communicate but still I am intrigued by deafblind communication. 
I'm sure you know tof an incredibly vibrant deafblind community.
So, they have ways to communicate.
More later...
fir today, Car
At 01:12 AM 4/1/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>This is a great topic to converse about, and one I feel strongly about
>as someone who is going into a rehabilitation field.
>
>I have noticed for a long time that the NFB philosophy seems to be
>boxed in.  That is, when we talk about it in our conventions, it is
>always framed as "The philosophy of blindness," when really, it is
>something anyone with any disability can follow.  I've said that I'm
>going to strive to teach it to my music therapy patients, whether they
>are fighting cancer, adjusting to an acquired disability, or are
>otherwise chronically ill.  Misunderstanding and misconceptions aren't
>just the problem with blindness, they're the problems with anything
>that is outside of the "norm," and I think we're doing wrong if we box
>it in to just talking about blindness.  It does a great disservice to
>those with other disabilities who could benefit from it, as well as
>those who are blind with a comorbid disability.
>
>I am set to give a talk about visual impairment to an intro to music
>therapy class next week, as they are finishing a chapter in the
>textbook about sensory disorders and disabilities.  Having read that
>book for that class last year, I know there are some things the book
>got right, and some things that I disagree with.  It will be
>challenging for me to correct the misconceptions the first year
>students have been taught, but that is the same challenge deaf people
>face, and people with Autism Spectrum Disorders face, and people with
>mental illness face.  I think that, although as the National
>Federation of the Blind we don't necessarily have a right to try to
>gain as much expertese on these other things as blindness per keeping
>relevant, but we can realize that our philosophy and ideals can be
>bigger than blindness, and can be even further reaching.
>
>I had a talk with a deaf guy last semester.  He came to speak to music
>therapy club about deafness, and taught us some sign language.  Since
>I couldn't see what he was signing, I was unable to grasp a lot of
>what he taught.  Classmates next to me tried to help position my
>hands, but they were busy trying to do the signs themselves.  I'll
>admit that the communication barrier between the speaker and I made me
>a little frustrated, so after the meeting I went up to him and
>explained my situation.  I said that I had an interest in learning
>sign language so I could communicate with deaf people, but didn't know
>how to logistically pull it off.  He taught me how to sign, "Sorry, I
>can't see you," so that I could first tell the deaf person I was blind
>(I didn't have my cane folded out when I was sitting at a desk for the
>presentation, so since he didn't see it he didn't know).  Then he
>thought a bit about how the deaf person would be able to communicate
>with me, since if they were unable to speak themselves pen and paper
>wouldn't work.  The best he could tell me was that the finger spelling
>would do the job, but at least I would be able to do the signing,
>which is more efficient.  He said that would show the deaf person I
>had taken the time to learn how to communicate with them, even if they
>couldn't easily communicate with me, and at least I wouldn't have the
>frustration of tediously fingerspelling myself.  It was cool, because
>afterwards he took a real interest in my notetaker and the braille
>display.  It would be so cool if there weren't those separations
>between people with disabilities, and we could all work for a common
>goal.
>
>I know at conventions some deafblind people feel kind of left out,
>because all these blind people are whizzing past them and they can
>easily get disoriented in the crowds.  I think helping the deafblind
>is a great start, but we do need to consider other disabilities, and
>combinations of disabilities with blindness as well.  I don't know if
>I have an answer to how this can happen yet, but I think a big chunk
>of it is practicing what we preach.  If we want sighted people to know
>the truth about blind people, and treat us as equals, we need to do
>the same for the deaf, those with Autism Spectrum Disorders and
>Developmental Disorders, and those with mental illness.
>
>Just my two cents worth... curious to see what others think.
>
>On 3/31/14, Joe <jsoro620 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Don't worry. My week is chaotic, so short post. One thing the guide dog
> > division has done that I find neat is that they've become a tangible
> > resource to fellow guide dog users. The way I understand it, you can call a
> > hotline and get concrete assistance with advocacy, training referrals, etc.
> > Perhaps mental health could be addressed in a similar fashion. Peer
> > assistance could go a long way, because after all, who is going to be in a
> > better position to help than someone who's been there?
> >
> > --
> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
> >
> > Visit my blog:
> > http://joeorozco.com/blog
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi
> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 PM
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple
> > disabilities?
> >
> > On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean that
> > your
> > family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a leadership
> > position.  That's not right, and I think we need to do some educational
> > campaigns that say that yes, we can lead.  Alll this talk of academic
> > excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's
> > Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc.  Both have limits and one has an
> > educational
> > impairment along with it.  We need to educate the people about mental
> > illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic"
> > twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.  No, it does not mean we are
> > all
> > experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur.  My parents thought I was
> > delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their lack of
> > knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and
> > later at 19.  There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, but
> > with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the best,
> > such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home that
> > won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends.
> > Beth
> >
> > On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
> >> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
> >> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of
> >> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and
> >> more than that, the number of blind people with additional
> >> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
> >> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
> >> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people
> >> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
> >> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
> >> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when
> >> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and
> >> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
> >> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly
> >> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from
> >> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
> >> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel
> >> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
> >> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
> >> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
> >> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
> >> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
> >> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
> >> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to
> >> help them with.
> >> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
> >> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions
> >> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a
> >> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its
> >> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
> >> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair
> >> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each
> >> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I
> >> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health
> >> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are
> >> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't
> >> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just
> >> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think
> >> having such divisions could help folks who have additional
> >> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and
> >> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about
> >> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole
> >> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be
> >> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with
> >> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something
> >> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in
> >> order to change things, change also needs to come from the
> >> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going
> >> to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Arielle
> >>
> >> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> >>> Joe and others,
> >>>
> >>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
> >>> negative is wrong.  Organizations are made up of human beings and we
> >>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect.
> >>> Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong  isn't so much a
> >>> matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion.  We embarked a
> >>> good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to
> >>> raise more funds than we used to have to raise.  I do not think I am
> >>> alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk.  When
> >>> you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare
> >>> legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that
> >>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget.  Whether
> >>> I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize
> >>> that the ACB has made contributions.  However, I have felt for some
> >>> time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be
> >>> solved by legislation alone.  Let's take accessibility, for example.
> >>> There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that
> >>> will force software to be accessible, for example.  I happen to
> >>> believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything
> >>> better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself.
> >>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the
> >>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information
> >>> that is new.  I am not one who got all excited about being able to
> >>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that
> >>> at some point.  However, I got very excited about the fact that as a
> >>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of
> >>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before.  A
> >>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader.  At the
> >>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving
> >>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered
> >>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a
> >>> crossbar and have it start to read the content.  There have probably
> >>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind
> >>> or another through our efforts.  We have been able to sponsor other
> >>> gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in
> >>> the technology field.  We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's
> >>> or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we
> >>> hadn't tried it.
> >>>
> >>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this.
> >>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives.  We
> >>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a
> >>> difference.  Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much
> >>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you
> >>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach.  Will some
> >>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we
> >>> did?  Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of
> >>> what we did with the KNFB reader?  Will we see a really good reader
> >>> on the iPhone?  Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial
> >>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of
> >>> having to educate every person who writes software?  Will some of our
> >>> efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google
> >>> self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car?
> >>> I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I
> >>> can't really say.  What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass
> >>> roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any
> >>> affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time
> >>> for that.  But it also means that we change.  Not only do we change,
> >>> but we make mistakes as we adjust to change.  Joe, what you see as a
> >>> downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change.  I'm not
> >>> satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though.  We can and must
> >>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization.
> >>>
> >>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
> >>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does
> >>> sometimes imply that.  However, you are wrong to draw conclusions
> >>> about such training based upon the marketing.  Discussing and
> >>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a
> >>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated
> >>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers.  Some of the
> >>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have
> >>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool.
> >>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training.
> >>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
> >>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot
> >>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it
> >>> won't matter much if we don't have training.  Legislation and even
> >>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic
> >>> education.
> >>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem
> >>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area.  You can't pick
> >>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and
> >>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own.
> >>>
> >>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact
> >>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were.
> >>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we
> >>> are going and how our philosophy fits in.  The question of what can
> >>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need
> >>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
> >>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization.  With
> >>> our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking
> >>> for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart
> >>> in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a
> >>> risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact.  We need the help of
> >>> all members, though, to handle change.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Steve Jacobson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Arielle,
> >>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
> >>>> Joe,
> >>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
> >>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I
> >>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the
> >>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I
> >>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I
> >>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB
> >>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of
> >>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics
> >>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame
> >>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to
> >>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the
> >>> national level, and more still within our local chapters.
> >>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman
> >>>>> <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Joe,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the
> >>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are
> >>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also
> >>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a
> >>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and
> >>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is
> >>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like.
> >>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is
> >>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due
> >>>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable
> >>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the
> >>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources.
> >>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
> >>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
> >>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not
> >>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
> >>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is
> >>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped
> >>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members
> >>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of
> >>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance
> >>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is
> >>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind
> >>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I
> >>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so
> >>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative
> >>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and
> >>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is
> > something we need to be sensitive to in the organization.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Arielle
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hello all.
> >>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement."  I live my own
> >>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC.  I do not believe in a one size
> >>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does.
> >>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
> >>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
> >>>>>> mailing list
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
> >>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a
> >>>>>> mentoor. RJ
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
> >>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad
> >>>>>>> to be in the company
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me
> >>>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my
> >>>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my
> >>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's
> >>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington
> >>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore.
> >>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I
> >>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with
> >>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
> >>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn
> >>>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it
> >>>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned
> >>>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money
> >>>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a
> >>>>>>> recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of
> >>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of
> >>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but
> >>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the
> >>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their
> >>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
> >>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead
> >>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness
> >>>>>>> field, also national in scope.
> >>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the
> >>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
> >>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about
> >>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
> >>>>>>> professionals.
> >>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I
> >>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve,
> >>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or
> >>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's
> >>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of
> >>>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable
> >>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have
> >>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who
> >>>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and
> >>>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some
> >>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of
> >>>>>>> sustaining.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
> >>>>>>> don't want
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well
> >>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college
> >>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to
> >>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's
> >>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and
> >>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and
> >>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give
> >>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what
> >>>>>>> you always had
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president,
> >>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough
> >>>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a
> >>>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum.
> >>>>>>> Technology has seen to that.
> >>>>>>> Whether
> >>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we
> >>>>>>> want it to exist.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know
> >>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the
> >>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to
> >>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do
> >>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial
> >>>>>>> management to you.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
> >>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My
> >>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new
> >>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if
> >>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading.
> >>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it,
> >>>>>>> and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel
> >>>>>>> at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the
> >>>>>>> greater our strength.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest
> >>>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame
> >>>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
> >>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away
> >>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Visit my blog:
> >>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
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