[nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people

Tue Apr 1 18:49:14 UTC 2014

very good point arielle.

Have a blessed day.
Best Wishes
Melissa R. Green and Pj

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
To: <jsoro620 at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind 
people

Perhaps the issue is whether we are talking about individual or
collective success. On a group level, as you point out, blind people
experience less success than their sighted peers, and face several
tangible obstacles that I still contend are all part of lack of
opportunity. On an individual level, though, blindness is more
relevant in some of our lives than others. I don't think blindness
affected my own academic experiences much. This was because I had
training and opportunity, and because I was in a field where nonvisual
access was pretty easy to come by. For others of us blindness
presented huge obstacles. I don't like the generalization that
blindness is a handicap for all of us but instead I would argue that
the impact of blindness is very dependent on context. Even in the last
few days visiting my family for spring break, in a place where there's
little public transit, nothing in the kitchen is organized or
Brailled, etc. I feel a huge loss of the independence I am so
accustomed to living on my own. My blindness didn't change when I flew
to Arizona but the surrounding situation changed instead. I do think
our philosophy needs to focus on improving our situations, which is
what I think is meant by creating opportunity, rather than on
eradicating blindness or blaming our troubles on blindness. Blindness
is a fixed thing but our situations are highly flexible and as a
collective we must continue to make our situations better for us.

Arielle

On 3/29/14, Joe <jsoro620 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I hardly think my words are dismal. My opposition is to people who claim
> success is irrelevant to blindness, and it was my response that the
> persistent unemployment rate tells a different story. I struggle with the
> notion that those 70 plus percent refuse to succeed. You can indeed become
> a
> teacher, an attorney, engineer, or anything else your heart desires, but 
> as
> some here have pointed out, you must also conquer the first stretch of
> unique obstacles that present themselves to blind individuals.
>
> I too derive positive energy from the NFB philosophy, and despite my
> backhanded remark of the organization's leadership, I think they are 
> mostly
> well-appointed to act on our collective concerns. However, these
> over-simplistic marketing sound bites and training center promises do
> nothing for the blind person at any stage of their independence who find
> themselves with tangible challenges no amount of positive philosophy can
> immediately resolve.
>
> All I am advocating for is a little pragmatic planning. You will most
> assuredly succeed. Yet, you must be prepared to go the extra mile to get
> there. It is not so simple as completing a round of training and presuming
> the world will be at your feet. We criticize our sighted peers for
> celebrating tasks we accomplish, because in our minds, these are minimal
> tasks anyone could accomplish. Me, I say to heck with that. I'm proud of
> you
> for the man you are. You make me look good to the public by association
> because you first challenged yourself to be an independent blind person 
> and
> then went out and lived up to your own professional aspirations.
>
> Success does indeed have many faces. Yet, I think that belief can just as
> easily help us justify our accomplishments to skeptics as it can help us
> justify our complacency. I can't tell if I'm more of a hard-liner than you
> on this discussion, but regardless, we should both agree that the core
> message needs to change a bit if we want to reverse the declining interest
> in the traditional grassroots movement. There are too many approaches and
> too many channels to compare those approaches to claim the old mantras of 
> a
> one-size-fits-all mentality are still relevant.
>
> --
> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>
> Visit my blog:
> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Jacobson [mailto:steve.jacobson at visi.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:47 PM
> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing 
> list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful
> blind people
>
> Joe,
>
> Good grief, which lack of opportunities do we have control over?  If we 
> had
> control over them, they would no longer constitute a lack of 
> opportunities.
> It feels like you are playing games with words here.  Blindness is going 
> to
> be more than a nuisance at times as are many, many other things in life.
> Is
> it fair that we are not all born sighted?  Of course not, but you could 
> say
> that about a lot of characteristics.  It is my understanding that the
> "reduced to a nuisance" thing was intended to address the notion that many
> sighted peopl have that we wake up every morning dreading living another
> day
> as a blind person.  I can honestly say I do not wake up that way.  A month
> ago, it was fifteen below zero here in Minnesota and a cab dropped me off
> at
> the wrong place.  I pulled out my iPhone to use BlindSquare to see where I
> was.  My fingers got so cold so quickly that I couldn't access it.  Right
> then, blindness was more than a nuisance, and I don't mind admitting that.
> We have some big obstacles now and some will get bigger if we don't figure
> out how to deal with them more successfully.  Accessibility is a very big
> one.  Let's not forget, though, that thirty years ago, and I remember
> because I was in the work place then, we had access to no forms, no mail,
> no
> banking information and on and on.  We had to hire readers for all of it.
> In some ways, I think taking classes back then was actually easier, 
> though,
> than it is today, although I would have given a lot to be able to use the
> web to do research as can be done now.  Things change, they gett better in
> some ways but worse in others.  There are many things about life that can
> be
> difficult, and blindness is one, but not the only one and I maintain often
> not the biggest one.  What our philosophy does for me is to help me keep 
> it
> in some sort of perspective.  Being born sighted would have been nice, but
> so would being born rich, or being born with an irresistable artistic
> tallent or maybe even athletic skills.  Regardless of one's level of
> patriotism, I thing most would agree that being born blind here and in 
> many
> other countries is probably preferable to being born sighted in a war zone
> or area of unrest.
>
> There are far too many of us who have not been able to move ahead to the
> degree that they likely would have had they been born sighted.  We have to
> keep trying to make opportunities better than they are.  In some ways, I
> think we have been fighting pretty hard just to stay even, but where would
> we be if we hadn't fought.  I am frankly somewhat concerned about where we
> are right now with respect to accessibility, but I'm going to try to do
> what
> I can to make the chances better that it will move in the right direction.
> We also have to be willing to use other tools when we need to.  It means
> asking for help sometimes but it also means finding a way to return the
> help
> we are given in another way.  As I think you know, I don't work at the
> heights of the blindness movement, but I know I have been lucky in many
> ways
> and I am mindful of that.  I just don't see where preaching hopelessness 
> is
> going to help us.
> When I was looking for a job, just knowing that others had found jobs
> helped
> me keep moving.  However, I was also able to learn from them so I received
> tangible assistance in that way, too.
>
> I think that too much time is spent on trying to define "nuisance" and
> "non-issue" instead of trying to get to the true intent of using those
> words, to paint a picture that is less bleak and to offer hope and 
> support.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:39:50 -0400, Joe wrote:
>
>>Arielle,
>
>>Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not
>>merely lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which
>>we do not always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness,
>>could, be a non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did
>>not slow down our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who
>>can move through life without experiencing frustration with the delays
>>and detours at random points along the way. In fact, I would submit
>>that those few for whom blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones
>>working at the heights of the blindness movement where it is easy to
>>drum up platitudes of opportunity and analogies of blindness to a
>>nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out and raise money for the
>>cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of that leadership
>>bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I will take a
>>motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but there's
>>success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and then
> there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn it.
>
>>--
>>Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>
>>Visit my blog:
>>http://joeorozco.com/blog
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
>>Silverman
>>Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM
>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of
>>successfulblind people
>
>>Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of
> opportunity.
>>Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all
>>denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of
>>opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when
>>things are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a
>>car, etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue.
>>Arielle
>
>>On 3/29/14, Kirt <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite
>>> speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way
>>> I interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main
>>> point in that speech was that real independence means getting things
>>> done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously
>>> high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly
>>> emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you
>>> accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and
>>> as long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech
>>> is easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some
>>> people
>>in the federation who don't quite live by it.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams"
>>>> <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt
>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of
>>>> successfulblind people
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation
>>>> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Good morning, everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of
>>>>> getting
>>>> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's
>>>> wrong with that?
>>>>> for today, Car
>>>>>
>>>>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance
> anymore.
>>>> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to
>>>> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think
>>>> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low
>>>> vision.
>>>>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the
>>>>>> news and
>>>> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a
>>>> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things
>>>> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does
>>>> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance
>>>> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came
>>>> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars,
>>>> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not
>>>> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which
>>>> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me.
>>>>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge,
>>>>>> I
>>>> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit.
>>>>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see.  So, no its not a
>>>>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness
>>>> insignificant in doing what we want to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your
>>>>>> passions. Its
>>>> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the
>>>> world.
>>>> Go
>>>> out and achieve big things for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that
>>>>>> field,
>>>> is a rather successful thing you accomplished.
>>>>>> You  are smart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM
>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of
>>>>>> successfulblind people
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me.
>>>>>> Isn't that obvious?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective
>>>>>> from the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a
>>>>>> factor in
>>>> success.
>>>>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and
>>>>>> blindness is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is
>>>>>> to deny the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are
> unemployed.
>>>>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if
>>>>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding
>>>>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for
>>>>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve
>>>>>> tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time?
>>>>>> Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess
>>>>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to
>>>>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our
>>>>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not
>>>>>> with the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person
>>>>>> who has to be extra competitive to
>>>> beat sighted applicants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to
>>>>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a
>>>>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better
>>>>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents
>>>>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to
>>>>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I
>>>>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of
>>>>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so
>>>>>> minimal as to be labeled a
>>>> minor inconvenience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think
>>>>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog
>>>>>> post on the subject, which you can read at the link below:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit my blog:
>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of
>>>>>> successful blind people
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you
> think.
>>>>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility
>>>>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a
>>>>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life.  But if we focus on
>>>>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some
>>>>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or
>>>>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits
>>>>>> do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you
>>>>>> cite
>>these traits?
>>>>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of
>>>>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's
>>>>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different
>>>>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also
>>>>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a
>>>>>> blind
>>person.
>>>>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior
>>traits?
>>>>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this.
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.
>>>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40
>>>>>> e
>>>>>> ar
>>>>>> thlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40com
>>>>>> c
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> t.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%
>>>>> 4
>>>>> 0g
>>>>> mail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2
>>>> %
>>>> 40gmail
>>>> .com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4
>>>> 0
>>>> gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.
>>> com
>>>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>nabs-l:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.co
>>m
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi
>>si.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com