[nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 90, Issue 5
Lillie Pennington
lilliepennington at fuse.net
Thu Apr 3 03:05:25 UTC 2014
I.am not sure if this is just me, but one of the key differences for me between the two organizations is how they view why we should be independent. To me, the nfb views.independence as gained through hard work and perseverance while the acb views it through entitlement.
I haven't done much of anything with acb and when I got involved in the nfb I.do not feel like I was radically impacted by the philosophies because I embraced similar ideas.
I see the nfb offering more to me personally and me being able to give more.
I apologize if I am repeating things that have already been said or if I am off of the mark with my views.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:35 PM, Joy Mistovich <joy.misto at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone,
> I agree exactly with Arielle and believe that the NFB is a liberal civil
> rights organizations. In general, I believe the majority of civil rights
> organizations-- no matter if they include people with and without
> disabilities-- are liberal in nature. The NFB's main philosophy and thrust
> of integrating the blind community equally into society is heavily based
> upon the side of democracy and liberalism. I have just completed a research
> paper for an independent study relating to how the blind and visually
> impaired are viewed within society. In other words, I discussed the
> experiences of two visually impaired writers and professors, explained the
> stereotypes encountered throughout one of their memoirs, and how the NFB
> has been able to lessen the few stereotypes I could critically expound on.
> After researching more heavily into the ACB and NFB organizations, I have
> realized that the ACB is much more conservative. One of the articles I
> found about an NFB member criticizing this organization stated that "The
> ACB is conservative" and they don't do enough to produce confident blind
> individuals. Finally, the NFB in general is a support network for
> individuals to share their experiences and learn from others who have
> encountered similar dilemmas. When a blind person needs assistance and they
> are lucky enough to discover the NFB, they network and make friends with
> other individuals; none of the NFB members walk alone on their journey.
> They will always have other individuals to guide them. No man is an island.
> This is what I have discovered after my first year within this
> organization, and I am extremely grateful to be a member!!!
> Joy
>
>
>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:54 PM, <nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Walgreen proves the business case for hiring 'disabled'
>> (Lewis, Anil)
>> 2. Re: JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive (Ashley Bramlett)
>> 3. Re: How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (Ashley Bramlett)
>> 4. The American Dream Fellowship (Lewis, Anil)
>> 5. Re: How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (justin williams)
>> 6. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities
>> mental illness (Sam Nelson)
>> 7. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities
>> mental illness (Arielle Silverman)
>> 8. NFB and conservatism/liberalism (Arielle Silverman)
>> 9. Re: How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities
>> mental illness (Sam Nelson)
>> 10. Re: How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities? (Steve Jacobson)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:35:04 +0000
>> From: "Lewis, Anil" <ALewis at nfb.org>
>> To: "Affiliate Presidents
>> (state-affiliate-leadership-list at nfbnet.org)"
>> <state-affiliate-leadership-list at nfbnet.org>, "NFB Chapter
>> Presidents
>> discussion list (chapter-presidents at nfbnet.org)"
>> <chapter-presidents at nfbnet.org>, "NABS List (nabs-l at nfbnet.org)"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Walgreen proves the business case for hiring
>> 'disabled'
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> ede3be875cde4b799c067b7461f67958 at BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> We underestimated them, it's as simple as that... The biggest impediment
>> to overcome is fear.
>>
>>
>> Walgreen proves the business case for hiring 'disabled'
>>
>> http://bloom-parentingkidswithdisabilities.blogspot.ca/2014/03/walgreen-proves-business-case-
>>
>> In 2006 Randy Lewis changed the way Walgreen Co. does business.
>> As senior vice-president of supply chain and logistics for the U.S. drug
>> store chain, Lewis oversaw 10,000 employees and up to a thousand new hires
>> each year. As a father to Austin, who has autism, he knew the difference a
>> job could make in the lives of young people with disabilities.
>>
>> In No Greatness Without Goodness<http://www.nogwog.org/> Lewis explains
>> how he brought his corporate and personal worlds together, transforming
>> Walgreen's distribution centres into inclusive workplaces where people with
>> all kinds of physical and mental disabilities, many deemed unemployable,
>> work to the same standards and earn the same pay as other staff.
>>
>> The company's new mindset is proclaimed in a giant sign when you enter the
>> building with the words "No 'them'" in a circle and a line drawn through it.
>>
>> BLOOM: What is the message of your new book?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: It's the story of how I got involved with disability hiring,
>> why we did it as a company and how we were able to go from essentially zero
>> to 10 per cent of the workforce in five years.
>>
>> The reason I wrote it was one, so that people could understand that people
>> with disabilities could work effectively and have a positive impact on the
>> work environment. It wasn't just as good, it was better.
>>
>> And two, that we all tend to underestimate our power to effect change and
>> that everyone, I think, at their core really does want to change the world.
>> As leaders, if we can tap into that in ourselves, that we want to do good
>> things, we can unleash that in others.
>>
>> BLOOM: How did you get the idea to hire people with disabilities?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: I have a son with autism and so watching him grow up, I
>> shared the same dream of other parents like me-to live one day longer than
>> my child because you wonder what will happen to them after you're gone.
>> We'd go to these IEP conferences at school and I realized disability plays
>> no favourites. It strikes traditional and non-traditional families, rich
>> and poor. I got to thinking: 'What is going to happen to all of these other
>> kids and parents?' If we're hiring over here at Walgreen and there's a need
>> over there, why can't we bring those two worlds together?
>>
>> BLOOM: How did you sell the idea to the company?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: I said we're not going to lower any of our performance
>> standards, we're a business, not a charity, and if it didn't work out, we
>> wouldn't do it. What I discovered as an employer was we had lots of
>> invisible walls around us-systems that we thought were giving us the best
>> performers, but weren't.
>>
>> We were screening out a whole class of people who would never get through
>> the Internet job application, or interview well, or look and talk like
>> everyone else, or have all of their limbs. That was a huge turning point.
>>
>> BLOOM: How did you get buy-in from existing staff?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: We'd had some experience with enclaves, where we contract
>> with another company and they bring people in with disabilities, typically
>> to do janitorial or ancillary tasks, and they supervise them. All our
>> employees liked it, management liked it. Here we are helping these people,
>> but they weren't integrated.
>>
>> One day a team member told the group about how important this work was to
>> her and she showed a picture of these people with disabilities. They were
>> all wearing the same shirts and she was in the picture with them, also
>> wearing the same shirt. She made a point of telling me she was not 'one of
>> them,' but their sponsor. I knew that was a problem. We had not embraced
>> people with disabilities as equals.
>>
>> After that we hired a young man with Asperger's to work on the line at one
>> of our centres and he did a fantastic job. We had two women he worked with
>> and I talked to them and asked 'How are things working with Chuck? Are
>> people accepting him?' They said: 'If they don't, they have to deal with
>> us,' and I thought now we're making progress.
>>
>> Each of our buildings has different coloured plastic totes for shipping,
>> and in this building they were grey. A couple of times every day a purple
>> tote would get mixed up and come down the line and Chuck loved those purple
>> totes. He would dance every time he saw one. At one point we said 'Is that
>> appropriate behaviour for the workplace?' But then we got to thinking 'Why
>> not?' We'd rather have him dancing than complaining.
>>
>> So we started learning about inclusion and we were about to build a new
>> generation of building. We had experience with the enclaves, we knew Chuck
>> could work on the line, so I thought maybe this is time. Why don't we
>> develop our automation with people with disabilities in mind.
>>
>> BLOOM: How did you decide on what proportion of staff would have
>> disabilities?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: When it came time to plan a new-generation distribution
>> centre 10 years ago to handle our growing business, I believed it was an
>> opportunity to 'go big' with disability hiring in an intentional manner. We
>> were designing new equipment and we thought let's make it effective for
>> people with disabilities if we can do that with negligible cost.
>>
>> We talked to a fellow who worked with people with autism. We knew we
>> couldn't afford a lot of job coaches and we asked him how many typically
>> abled people would we initially need to provide support to a person with
>> autism, thinking the person with autism might be the most difficult to
>> employ. He said maybe two people. So we decided one-third of the workforce
>> is going to be a person with a disability.
>>
>> No one had ever done this anywhere in the world in a production
>> environment. If we don't get orders shipped accurately we're not in
>> business. This was a clear and elevating goal. We would hire 200 people
>> with disabilities out of 600 to staff this new-generation centre we were
>> building in South Carolina.
>>
>> Two years later we opened up a similar centre with the same goals near
>> Hartford, Conn.
>>
>> BLOOM: What did you learn?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: We discovered that people with disabilities could do all of
>> the jobs, not just the jobs we'd designed the equipment in mind for. The
>> automation we put in helped everyone, not just the people with
>> disabilities. We brought in managers from our other centres to show them
>> that it wasn't about the automation. That they didn't have to have
>> specialized equipment that we had in the new centre to be successful at
>> this. They liked what they saw and were ready to try it out in their less
>> automated buildings. And I asked them to set a clear and elevating goal and
>> they said let's hire 1,000 people by the year 2010.
>>
>> BLOOM: Why were the staff with disabilities so effective?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: We underestimated them, it's as simple as that. When we
>> measure performance, the people with disabilities perform as well
>> statistically as the others. The standard is not that they have to be
>> Superman or Jackie Robinson. But the employees with disabilities also have
>> fewer accidents, better retention, less absenteeism and they make people
>> better managers and create greater teamwork.
>>
>> BLOOM: So it sounds like overall there were definite advantages.
>>
>> Randy Lewis: Yes.
>>
>> BLOOM: Did the culture in these environments change for the better.
>>
>> Randy Lewis: I asked people in our South Carolina and Connecticut centres
>> who'd worked in other buildings without disability hiring, 'How did you
>> rank engagement when you were there?' And they'd say probably a seven or
>> eight out of 10. Then I asked them to compare that level of engagement with
>> what they saw in the building they were in now. They said the eight would
>> drop to a two.
>>
>> 'We didn't know what engagement was until we got here,' they said. 'We
>> didn't know what teamwork was like.'
>>
>> If you ask managers in the buildings with a large percentage of people
>> with disabilities what is their number one job, they'll say 'My job is to
>> make everybody who works for me successful.' When you have that kind of
>> attitude the workforce notices and they respond to it.
>>
>> BLOOM: How has the experience created better managers?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: We've learned to 'manage in the grey' and by that I mean we
>> want to manage with values or principles, not rules. People like rules,
>> bosses like rules because they're easier to administer. For some of our
>> supervisors that was uncomfortable at first, but I said if it's just about
>> administering rules I can get my own children to come in and run this
>> place. We asked people to look at the purpose of rules and apply what were
>> the principles of the rule, rather than the rule itself. This caused us to
>> look at a lot of our policies.
>>
>> We changed the way we hire and recruit because a lot of people can't get
>> through the Internet application system or need help applying. If there's a
>> discipline problem, we let the employee bring in a parent or advocate
>> because we want to make sure they understand and we understand.
>>
>> Sometimes we make exceptions to a rule. For example, I remember a
>> situation where a young man became frustrated because he had to work
>> overtime and he was going to miss a doctor's appointment. He punched a
>> computer screen and broke it.
>>
>> The rule is that if you break something intentionally, you're fired
>> forever and forever banned from the company. We got to thinking: 'Is that a
>> good rule? Is there ever an exception?' Even Aristotle way back when noted
>> that human behaviour is not mathematics, it's not finite reasoning, there
>> are exceptions to all things.
>>
>> So we went back and had to look at that policy as it applied to all of our
>> staff. We needed a framework. And it was: 'Is there an extenuating
>> circumstance? Is there a reason to expect the person won't do it again? And
>> what's the likelihood that they'll be able to find employment elsewhere?'
>> We don't decide in favour of the employee in every case, but we did in that
>> one.
>>
>> Our managers say this idea of managing in the grey is the most powerful
>> thing that's made them better managers.
>>
>> BLOOM: It sounds like they feel empowered in a new way.
>>
>> Randy Lewis: The change is huge. They talk about managing with love, a
>> word we've never used in the workplace.
>> A few years back we had the president of a Best Buy division come through
>> for a tour and afterwards he sat down with our managers to ask questions.
>> 'I've heard all the good things about this place,' he said. 'What's a bad
>> day like?'
>>
>> And essentially the supervisors said: 'A bad day is when I come in with my
>> own problems and I'm not focused on my staff and the work. You know that
>> saying 'You come home and you want to kick the dog?' If I do that at work
>> my staff will either shut down or start acting out or they'll confront me
>> and tell me why I'm being a jerk. Or they'll come up and give me a hug. One
>> thing I've learned is that when I'm here, it's about them, not me.'
>>
>> BLOOM: How costly is it to train people with disabilities?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: It was negligible. What we did was go out in the community
>> and get partners. We demanded that disability agencies in the community
>> form a coalition and work together with us. We built a training room in a
>> community-rented space and for a year the community screened and trained
>> people and taught them how to use our equipment. Now we have training rooms
>> within our buildings.
>>
>> Typically a new employee has 60 days' probation and by 60 days they have
>> to be up to full productivity. We anticipated that people with disabilities
>> might need longer because out training might not be right for everyone. So
>> we created an alternative pipeline into the company. If you have a
>> disability and want to come in that route you are paid as a temporary
>> employee, with no benefits, and you can stay in that group as long as
>> you're progressing towards full productivity. It might take 60 days or
>> less, some may take 90. One person took a year. Once they're at full
>> productivity they're hired as permanent staff.
>>
>> BLOOM: In a news story I saw you talked about an accommodation where you
>> name, as well as number, stations. Can you explain that?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: For someone who has difficulty with numbers and directions,
>> we've named stations as a group of animals in a zoo. So we might say
>> 'You'll be working at rhinoceros in zoo.' We also have a race-cart alley
>> and a hamburger alley. So perhaps you'll be working at the hot dog station
>> in hamburger alley. These are simple things that help some people. Most of
>> our accommodations cost less than $20 and most are paper and pencil.
>>
>> BLOOM: What's been the greatest challenge in implementing this model?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: The biggest impediment to overcome is fear.
>>
>> BLOOM: How did you manage that?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: To outsiders in the organization I said: 'We're here to make
>> money, we're here to make it work. If people with disabilities can't to the
>> job, they won't be working here.'
>>
>> To those who reported to me I said 'Our standard is to give it our very
>> best, so if it doesn't work, we can tell the world this is not possible.
>> Give it your very best, and if it doesn't work, we know no one else could
>> have done it better than us.' That was very freeing for everyone.
>>
>> We also said 'We don't have all the answers. There are going to be
>> problems we can't anticipate, so let's not worry about those. If you
>> anticipate a problem, let's figure out a way around it. And you can't bring
>> a What if? unless you've thought of a way around it. Most of the problems
>> we anticipated never happened.'
>>
>> BLOOM: What was a problem you didn't anticipate?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: We thought all of our systems were great for getting us the
>> best employees. We thought we'd build this and as soon as we put an ad in
>> the paper all of the people with disabilities would come flocking to us. We
>> didn't think about the fact that this is a group that doesn't read the
>> paper every morning looking for places to work. It's not a group that
>> trusts employers. It's a group that may have difficulty in even getting to
>> the job site for the interview. We didn't realize we had so many invisible
>> walls.
>>
>> It took some work for us to say gee whiz, we're going to have to do
>> something different. We worked with community agencies. We've had to teach
>> them to understand our jobs and send us people that they believe will be
>> successful.
>>
>> BLOOM: What are common myths about hiring people with disabilities?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: That they can't do the job, it's going to cost me more to
>> make them effective and when they fail I will get punished.
>>
>> BLOOM: Has Walgreen hired people who were considered unemployable?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: Lots of them. For most of them it's their first job.
>>
>> BLOOM: What does the average person get paid?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: They make close to US$30,000 on the production line.
>>
>> BLOOM: I heard that in a couple of your distribution centres as many as
>> half of all employees have disabilities.
>>
>> Randy Lewis: In our original centre in South Carolina, 40 per cent have
>> disabilities. In our newer centre in Connecticut, 50 per cent have
>> disabilities. In 2011 we achieved our goal of having 10 per cent of the
>> workforce made up by people with disabilities. Before I retired 14 months
>> ago, the centre managers from across the country met and set a new goal to
>> reach 20 per cent.
>>
>> BLOOM: What kind of impact do these jobs have on people with disabilities?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: For many a world of possibility, opportunity and
>> responsibility is opened to them for the first time. They have
>> relationships they've never had before. They have money they never had
>> before. And there are some unanticipated consequences, too. For instance,
>> some become like teenagers: they stay up too late at night playing video
>> games because they can afford them now. It's a whole village of people
>> working together that's expanded everyone's way of thinking.
>>
>> BLOOM: What advice would you give a parent who's concerned that their
>> child won't be able to get a job due to disabilities?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: The words we hear as parents of a child with a disability are
>> 'always' and 'never.' We have found that that's not necessarily true. I was
>> in Canada yesterday with a new organization of employers called
>> SensAbility. They're going to look for employers in Canada who will help
>> spread this model. Ontario's Lieutenant Governor David Onley has taken
>> employers to visit our site and is very active in helping Canada advance on
>> this front. So I'm very hopeful about Canada.
>>
>> BLOOM: What about your son. What are his dreams?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: I wish I knew. I wish he could tell me. He's 25 and he works
>> about 12 hours a week in a Walgreens store. There's a Michigan company
>> building a distribution centre about an hour from here in Chicago and the
>> owner has talked about how one day he wants Austin to be their employee. So
>> we're going to go up and see it.
>>
>> BLOOM: What impact do you hope your book will have?
>>
>> Randy Lewis: I hope people read it and believe it's possible and try it.
>> There are enough models out there to do it. We make only three cents on the
>> dollar, so our margins are razor thin. If Walgreen could do it-and we
>> didn't have any models to work from-anyone can do it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A.
>> Deputy Executive Director
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute
>> 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place
>> Baltimore, Maryland 21230
>>
>> (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice)
>> (410) 659-5129 (FAX)
>> Email: alewis at nfb.org<mailto:alewis at nfb.org>
>> Web: www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/>
>> Twitter: @AnilLife
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the
>> expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles
>> between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want;
>> blindness is not what holds you back.
>>
>> To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination
>> Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture<
>> http://www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:39:50 -0400
>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive
>> Message-ID: <EADAD43DB41D4D629DC6E262526BE256 at OwnerPC>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> I hate the sound of the default NVDA. can you get the elloquence
>> synthesizer
>> for it?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kaiti Shelton
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:43 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS in a USV Drive or Thumb Drive
>>
>> Hi Helga,
>>
>> I'm not a computer guru, so I'll admit I may be wrong on this; but I
>> don't think you can do this with JAWS. However, you can do it with
>> NVDA, which is a free screenreader you can download and install to a
>> flashdrive. I use a flashdrive with NVDA on it so I don't have to
>> worry about finding an inaccessible computer when I study at the
>> library, and it works really well.
>>
>> HTH.
>>
>> On 4/1/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com <helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to ask you, is it
>>> true
>>> that you can put the JAWS screen reader into an thumb drive in order to
>>> take
>>> it around and use it in other computers that don't have the software? And
>>> if
>>> it is, where do I get it? Or is it a way that I can put it in my
>> thumb
>>> drive? I'm just wondering since I want to see and check my mom's computer
>>> or
>>> other friend's computer that doesn't have JAWS the Software, so that I
>> can
>>> use it. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me
>> some
>>> suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much
>> and
>>> God bless!!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kaiti
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:38:09 -0400
>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>> Message-ID: <77328BBEDA50436084BDF1BAF398A8EC at OwnerPC>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Kaiti,
>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too.
>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition.
>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy
>> too. The idea
>> that we have to get out there and integrate into society on terms of
>> equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is kind of
>> conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government; get a job.
>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that
>> you can be financially independent through other means with out the job.
>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances
>> who
>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a
>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing
>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like
>> raisers edge.
>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps
>> with no outside help.
>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB
>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these
>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things
>> may change soon.
>>
>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed.
>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this
>> does not happen again.
>>
>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other
>> disability groups.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kaiti Shelton
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we
>> may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and
>> those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities
>> without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the
>> starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a
>> huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for
>> working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the
>> same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then
>> we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with
>> that group. Once repore is established, people from the various
>> organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it
>> better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>
>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described,
>> but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as
>> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the
>> car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss
>> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is
>> purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather
>> than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people
>> who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me,
>> that just doesn't make sense.
>>
>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself
>> at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are
>> more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't
>> always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important
>> that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had
>> any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what
>> Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this
>> light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention?
>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I
>> would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double
>> minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the
>> greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are
>> less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit
>> their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right.
>> Sorry for the rant.
>>
>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never
>> happen
>>> again.
>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they
>>> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the
>> devisions
>>> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling
>>> of
>>>
>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters
>>> and
>>>
>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what
>>> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of
>>> backing the wrong person.
>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up
>>> in
>>>
>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of
>>> the federation. Have a blessed day.
>>> Best Wishes
>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>>
>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to
>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the
>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something
>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely
>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every
>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded
>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make
>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual
>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal
>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too
>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all
>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled
>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other
>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the
>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we
>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed
>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify
>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run
>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle
>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the
>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a
>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But the
>>>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under
>>>> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not
>>>> occurring.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a
>> diverse
>>>> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I
>>>> also
>>>>
>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to
>>>> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and
>>>> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered
>>>> people.
>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the
>>>> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the
>>>> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social
>>>> purposes.
>>>>
>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more
>>>> changes
>>>>
>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see
>> what
>>>> happens.
>>>> Have a blessed day.
>>>> Best Wishes
>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>>>> multipledisabilities?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of
>>>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and
>>>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional
>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people
>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when
>>>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and
>>>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly
>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from
>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel
>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to
>>>> help them with.
>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions
>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a
>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its
>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair
>>>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each
>>>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I
>>>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health
>>>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are
>>>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't
>>>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just
>>>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think
>>>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional
>>>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and
>>>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about
>>>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole
>>>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be
>>>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with
>>>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something
>>>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in
>>>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the
>>>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going
>>>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>> Joe and others,
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative
>>>>> is
>>>>> wrong. Organizations are made up of
>>>>> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely
>>>>> going
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one
>>>>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as
>>>>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good
>>>>> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise
>>>>> more
>>>>> funds than we used to have to raise. I
>>>>> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this
>> is
>>>>> a
>>>>> risk. When you look at our budget and
>>>>> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe,
>>>>> it
>>>>> is certainly clear that legislative
>>>>> successes are not
>>>>> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with
>>>>> legislation
>>>>> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the
>>>>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I
>>>>> feel
>>>>> particularly more so now that our
>>>>> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take
>>>>> accessibility,
>>>>> for example. There is a lot of emphasis
>>>>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be
>>>>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe
>>>>> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us,
>>>>> particularly on the job, all by itself.
>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the
>>>>> limits
>>>>> of current technology and explore ways
>>>>> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited
>>>>> about
>>>>> being able to drive a car, although I
>>>>> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I
>>>>> got
>>>>> very excited about the fact that as a
>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways
>>>>> of
>>>>> getting information that had not been
>>>>> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the
>> KNFB
>>>>> reader. At the time, it was something
>>>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB
>>>>> reader to the lists of registered people at
>>>>> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have
>> it
>>>>> start to read the content. There have
>>>>> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of
>>>>> one
>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We
>>>>> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers,
>>>>> teachers, and major players in the
>>>>> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or
>>>>> 90's,
>>>>> and much of this would not have been
>>>>> done even now if we hadn't tried it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My
>>>>> point is that a lot of this is about risks
>>>>> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these
>>>>> efforts
>>>>> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a
>>>>> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one
>>>>> learns
>>>>> from what does, because if you make a
>>>>> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those
>>>>> thousand kids get into math or science
>>>>> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little
>>>>> better
>>>>> because of what we did with the KNFB
>>>>> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever
>>>>> see
>>>>> a reader that could use artificial
>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of
>>>>> having
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> educate every person who writes
>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for
>>>>> us
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars
>>>>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at
>> least
>>>>> some of the answers are yes, but at this
>>>>> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic
>>>>> grass
>>>>> roots organization that we were in the
>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above,
>> nor
>>>>> was
>>>>> it the right time for that. But it
>>>>> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes
>>>>> as
>>>>> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see
>>>>> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not
>>>>> satisfied
>>>>> to say that it has to be that way,
>>>>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as
>>>>> an
>>>>> organization.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers
>>>>> won't
>>>>> miraculously make life better, and
>>>>> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to
>> draw
>>>>> conclusions about such training based
>>>>> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and
>>>>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind
>>>>> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in
>>>>> Minnesota and I assume by our other
>>>>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea
>>>>> that
>>>>> you have to have a set of tools to
>>>>> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do
>>>>> more
>>>>> than run people through training.
>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>> Legislating
>>>>> that software must be accessible and that
>>>>> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still
>> needed,
>>>>> but
>>>>> it won't matter much if we don't have
>>>>> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if
>>>>> we
>>>>> don't get a good basic education.
>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if
>>>>> there are no braille instructors in a
>>>>> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead
>>>>> to
>>>>> success by itself, and you can't see any
>>>>> given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact
>> the
>>>>> complex challenges we face with a larger
>>>>> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we
>>>>> understand where we are going and how our
>>>>> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the
>>>>> challenges of the world and what do we need
>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone
>>>>> asking questions like that outside of this
>>>>> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our
>>>>> understanding of asking for help and looking for
>>>>> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is
>>>>> risky, I think that branching out is a risk
>>>>> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all
>>>>> members, though, to handle change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I
>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw
>>>>> potential the organization has moving
>>>>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to
>>>>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this
>>>>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members
>>>>> who
>>>>> can see past the smoke and mirrors of
>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in
>> a
>>>>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to
>>>>> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the
>> line
>>>>> and
>>>>> pander to those with political power
>>>>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more
>> still
>>>>> within our local chapters.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the
>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying
>>>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like
>>>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all
>>>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that
>>>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize
>>>>>>> drawings and the like.
>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is
>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due
>> to
>>>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income
>>>>>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative
>>>>>>> could be a loss of programs and resources.
>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to
>>>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
>> judgment
>>>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only,
>>>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical
>>>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find
>> that
>>>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there
>>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of
>> the
>>>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not
>>>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I
>>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not
>> all
>>>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a
>>>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division
>>>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time,
>>>>>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello all.
>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own
>>>>>>>> life,
>>>>>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits
>> all
>>>>>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does.
>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor.
>>>>>>>> RJ
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
>> there
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the
>>>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me
>> as
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer
>> as
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the
>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending
>> a
>>>>>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend
>>>>>>>>> leadership
>>>>>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a
>> person's
>>>>>>>>> spirit,
>>>>>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
>>>>>>>>> nonprofit
>>>>>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather
>>>>>>>>> disappointing
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was
>>>>>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I
>>>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly
>>>>>>>>> dose
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of
>>>>>>>>> generating
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most
>>>>>>>>> frustrating
>>>>>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> whom
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their
>> NFB
>>>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
>> about
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development
>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> scope.
>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the
>>>>>>>>> top,
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new
>>>>>>>>> blood
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and
>>>>>>>>> resources
>>>>>>>>> we've already had.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>>>>>>>>> professionals.
>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in
>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too
>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable
>>>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really
>> meant
>>>>>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining
>>>>>>>>> true
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find
>>>>>>>>> ourselves
>>>>>>>>> incapable of sustaining.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
>> don't
>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the
>>>>>>>>> verge
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never
>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you
>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president,
>> and
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the
>> NFB
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that.
>>>>>>>>> Whether
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what
>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem
>>>>>>>>> happier,
>>>>>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The
>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be
>> a
>>>>>>>>> lesson
>>>>>>>>> in financial management to you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to
>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up
>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have
>> no
>>>>>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they
>>>>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you
>>>>>>>>> excel
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the
>>>>>>>>> greater
>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>> strength.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to
>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> original question, my answer would be this:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
>>>>>>>>> consume
>>>>>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will
>>>>>>>>> not,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog:
>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kaiti
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 18:35:34 +0000
>> From: "Lewis, Anil" <ALewis at nfb.org>
>> To: "Affiliate Presidents
>> (state-affiliate-leadership-list at nfbnet.org)"
>> <state-affiliate-leadership-list at nfbnet.org>, "NFB Chapter
>> Presidents
>> discussion list (chapter-presidents at nfbnet.org)"
>> <chapter-presidents at nfbnet.org>, "NABS List (nabs-l at nfbnet.org)"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] The American Dream Fellowship
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> 04706f3805614a9e92b3323e21d80adc at BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Michael Gamel-McCormick
>> Disability Policy Director
>> Chairman Tom Harkin
>> Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions
>> 404 Senate Hart Office Building
>> w-(202)224-7692
>> c- (302)367-4282
>>
>> The American Dream Fellowship
>>
>> The Cisneros Center for New Americans<http://www.cisneroscenter.org/> is
>> excited to announce the creation of the American Dream Fellowship<
>> http://www.cisneroscenter.org/american-dream-initiative/>, a paid
>> opportunity for young and driven leaders who are passionate about
>> empowering new immigrant families to fully engage their communities and
>> live out their American Dream.
>>
>> During this paid 13-month fellowship, fellows will work together with
>> community stakeholders in our inaugural host community of Northwest
>> Arkansas to address barriers to integration for new immigrant families.
>> Fellows will educate, advocate, and innovate.
>>
>> Educate. Fellows will work to instill a sense of urgency about education
>> in new immigrant families by engaging family members in educational goals
>> and breaking down barriers to academic achievement. In the process, the
>> Fellows themselves will grow in their understanding and appreciation of the
>> host community, and will embark in their own journey of personal growth.
>>
>> Advocate. Fellows will work to Improve access for new immigrants to the
>> resources and services they need to pursue the American Dream, including
>> through the path we have developed: A Road Map to The American Dream. To do
>> this, Fellows will create strong and meaningful relationships with
>> community members and stakeholders, and use their work to lend a voice to
>> the community's needs.
>>
>> Innovate. Fellows will work closely with the community to leverage
>> collective impact, proven strategies, and innovative technologies. The host
>> community's leadership and fellows will work closely to generate creative
>> solutions that maximize resources and impact.
>>
>> The American Dream Fellowship will begin in July of 2014 and run through
>> August of the 2015. During the first month of their commitment, fellows
>> will participate in a rigorous training based in San Antonio. While in
>> Northwest Arkansas fellows will be supported and developed by the Cisneros
>> Center staff and high level leaders.
>>
>> Fellows will receive a competitive salary of $50,000 and full benefits.
>>
>> To learn more about the Fellow profile, click here.<
>> http://www.cisneroscenter.org/who-do-we-look-for/>
>>
>> For additional information about the fellowship, click here<
>> http://www.cisneroscenter.org/why-join/>.
>>
>> How do you apply?<http://www.cisneroscenter.org/apply/>
>>
>> Interested individuals can apply here<
>> https://cisneroscenter.submittable.com/submit/bbf7f877-64ff-41d2-adb0-701f32b6723a>.
>> The deadline for nominations and applications is 11:59 pm EST on Sunday,
>> April 13, 2014.
>> The application includes:
>>
>> * Basic information
>> * Resume
>> * Personal Statement
>>
>> Please visit www.cisneroscenter.org/apply<
>> http://www.cisneroscenter.org/apply/> to apply.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Alyssa Mowitz
>> Majority Staff * Disability Policy and Oversight Office
>> Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions
>> Chairman Tom Harkin
>> 404 Hart Senate Office Building
>> (202) 224-233
>>
>>
>> Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A.
>> Deputy Executive Director
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute
>> 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place
>> Baltimore, Maryland 21230
>>
>> (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice)
>> (410) 659-5129 (FAX)
>> Email: alewis at nfb.org<mailto:alewis at nfb.org>
>> Web: www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/>
>> Twitter: @AnilLife
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the
>> expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles
>> between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want;
>> blindness is not what holds you back.
>>
>> To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination
>> Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture<
>> http://www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:28:31 -0400
>> From: "justin williams" <justin.williams2 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>> Message-ID: <004f01cf4ea9$bb7b1900$32714b00$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb.
>> Great point Ashley.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
>> Bramlett
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>
>> Kaiti,
>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions too.
>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition.
>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy
>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on
>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is
>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government;
>> get
>> a job.
>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you can
>> be financially independent through other means with out the job.
>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances
>> who
>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a
>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is doing
>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like
>> raisers edge.
>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps
>> with no outside help.
>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and ACB
>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these
>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things
>> may change soon.
>>
>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed.
>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope this
>> does not happen again.
>>
>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other
>> disability groups.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kaiti Shelton
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may
>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those
>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without
>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to
>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind
>> people,
>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish
>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with
>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming
>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the
>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased
>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>
>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but
>> I'm
>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed
>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's
>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive
>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and
>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but
>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another
>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense.
>>
>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>> unitarian
>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I
>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than
>> the
>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy,
>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not
>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even
>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know
>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent
>> part of convention?
>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would
>> hate
>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members,
>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend
>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the
>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or
>> circumstances
>> doesn't seem right.
>> Sorry for the rant.
>>
>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never
>>> happen again.
>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then
>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the
>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and
>>> be the darling of
>>>
>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with
>>> chapters and
>>>
>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering
>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give
>>> examples of backing the wrong person.
>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew
>>> up in
>>>
>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling
>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day.
>>> Best Wishes
>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>>
>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to
>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the
>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something
>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely
>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every
>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded
>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make
>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual
>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal
>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too
>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all
>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled
>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other
>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the
>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we
>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed
>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify
>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run
>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle
>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the
>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a
>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But
>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of
>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this
>>>> is not occurring.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a
>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more
>>>> diverse. I also
>>>>
>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if
>>>> they have
>>>>
>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything
>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came
>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and
>>>> transgendered people.
>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the
>>>> announcement and
>>>>
>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left
>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that
>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for
>>>> social purposes.
>>>>
>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more
>>>> changes
>>>>
>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see
>>>> what happens.
>>>> Have a blessed day.
>>>> Best Wishes
>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>>>> multipledisabilities?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number
>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase,
>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional
>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people
>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true
>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities
>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly
>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from
>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel
>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to
>>>> help them with.
>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions
>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a
>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its
>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind
>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss
>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been
>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental
>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and
>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such
>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or
>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them
>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have
>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the
>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and
>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if
>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes
>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how
>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there
>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership
>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from
>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are
>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>> Joe and others,
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we
>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't
>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We
>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in
>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do
>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this
>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then
>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear
>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget.
>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I
>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt
>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems
>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for
>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation
>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I
>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make
>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself.
>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the
>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information
>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to
>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that
>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a
>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of
>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A
>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the
>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving
>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered
>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a
>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably
>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one
>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor
>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major
>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this
>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even
>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this.
>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We
>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a
>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much
>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you
>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some
>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we
>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of
>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader
>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial
>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of
>>>>> having
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> educate every person who writes
>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way
>>>>> for us
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we
>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are
>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that
>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the
>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above,
>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we
>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to
>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the
>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be
>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as
>>>>> individuals and as an organization.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does
>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions
>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and
>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as
>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND
>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers.
>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you
>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not
>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through
>>>>> training.
>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot
>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it
>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even
>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic
>>>>> education.
>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem
>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick
>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and
>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact
>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were.
>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we
>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can
>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need
>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization.
>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of
>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us
>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out
>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the
>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I
>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the
>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I
>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I
>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB
>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of
>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics
>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame
>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to
>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the
>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>> <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the
>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are
>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also
>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a
>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and
>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is
>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like.
>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is
>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut
>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable
>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the
>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources.
>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not
>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is
>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped
>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members
>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of
>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance
>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is
>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind
>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I
>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so
>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative
>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and
>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this
>> is
>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello all.
>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my
>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one
>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB
>>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have
>>>>>>>> a mentoor.
>>>>>>>> RJ
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad
>>>>>>>>> to be in the company
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited
>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up
>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my
>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's
>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington
>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I
>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with
>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in
>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I
>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting
>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to
>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder
>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of
>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of
>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but
>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the
>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their
>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead
>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the
>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope.
>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the
>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about
>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>>>>>>>>> professionals.
>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I
>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve,
>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or
>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's
>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste
>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable
>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should
>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women
>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas,
>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some
>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of
>>>>>>>>> sustaining.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
>>>>>>>>> don't want
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well
>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college
>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to
>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's
>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and
>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and
>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give
>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what
>>>>>>>>> you always had
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president,
>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave
>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer
>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective
>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that.
>>>>>>>>> Whether
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we
>>>>>>>>> want it to exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know
>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the
>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to
>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do
>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial
>>>>>>>>> management to you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My
>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new
>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if
>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading.
>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut
>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you
>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there
>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here
>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some
>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be
>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away
>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog:
>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks
>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel
>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g
>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4
>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4
>>>>>> 0visi.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmai
>>>>> l.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail
>>>> .com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail
>>>> .com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>> com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%
>>> 40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kaiti
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.
>> net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail
>> .com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 14:44:54 -0500
>> From: "Sam Nelson" <nelsonsam68 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
>> Message-ID: <014501cf4eac$05c287d0$11479770$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>> I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred percent
>> agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ services for
>> the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with blindness.
>> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental illness. I
>> agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and them not
>> understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how mental illness
>> might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of misunderstanding with
>> blindness profesionals not understanding how mental illness might interfere
>> with living on one's own getting a standard full time job ETC and so their
>> scope of services don't allow for anything outside what they perceive to be
>> normal.
>> I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called
>> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is a
>> very
>> close knit community and we all support each other day to day with these
>> struggles, providing encouragement and resources if possible and most of
>> all
>> just our friendship.
>> Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric clinic
>> and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know anthing about
>> this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a contact person as
>> I'd be very curious to know more about the program and how they do
>> things.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>
>> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree
>> described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted
>> and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship.
>> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will not
>> take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them
>> because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man to
>> woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a
>> guy
>> from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up
>> and
>> take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us from
>> marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of
>> Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be
>> complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound
>> harsh.
>> Beth
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may
>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those
>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without
>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to
>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind
>> people,
>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish
>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with
>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming
>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from the
>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased
>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>
>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but
>> I'm
>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed
>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean, it's
>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive
>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and
>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience, but
>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another
>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense.
>>
>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>> unitarian
>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I
>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than
>> the
>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy,
>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was not
>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even
>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know
>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent
>> part of convention?
>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would
>> hate
>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members,
>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to pretend
>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve the
>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or
>> circumstances
>> doesn't seem right.
>> Sorry for the rant.
>>
>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never happen
>> again.
>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they
>> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the devisions
>> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling
>> of
>>
>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters
>> and
>>
>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what
>> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of
>> backing the wrong person.
>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew up
>> in
>>
>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling of
>> the federation. Have a blessed day.
>> Best Wishes
>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>
>>
>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to
>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the
>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like
>> that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely understand
>> the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special interest.
>> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should
>> constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car
>> enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an LGBT
>> group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want
>> LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious
>> invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever
>> even been polled about whether to keep having these religious invocations?
>> In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the
>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we really
>> need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what
>> kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a
>> division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can
>> probably
>> be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping
>> up
>> a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would have
>> been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that
>> wasn't supported.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list.
>> But the
>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under
>> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not
>> occurring.
>>
>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a diverse
>> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I
>> also
>>
>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they
>> have
>>
>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to
>> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and
>> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered people.
>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement
>> and
>>
>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the
>> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the
>> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social
>> purposes.
>>
>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more
>> changes
>>
>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see what
>> happens.
>> Have a blessed day.
>> Best Wishes
>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>> multipledisabilities?
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue that's
>> come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also
>> have
>> other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with
>> additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the
>> number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting
>> educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that,
>> for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to
>> the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think
>> that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when we
>> think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental
>> illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but
>> especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to
>> stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I
>> can
>> see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or
>> chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks
>> who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the
>> ups
>> and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly
>> creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting
>> lost.
>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment,
>> education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with.
>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just blindness,
>> but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups within
>> the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division,
>> but
>> I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard
>> about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes
>> sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd
>> want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has
>> not been formed.
>> I
>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health
>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are
>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't
>> exist
>> because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't been
>> enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such
>> divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain
>> leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a
>> vehicle
>> for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups
>> specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I
>> hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you
>> about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While
>> there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership
>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the
>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to
>> be
>> elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>> Joe and others,
>>
>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative
>> is
>> wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect
>> so
>> our creations are not likely going
>>
>> to
>> be perfect. Still, some of what one
>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as
>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an
>> expansion
>> that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to
>> raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that
>> this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and
>> then
>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that
>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I
>> completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the
>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel
>> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation
>> alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of
>> emphasis
>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be
>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it
>> isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all
>> by itself.
>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the
>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that
>> is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a
>> car,
>> although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point.
>> However, I
>> got
>> very excited about the fact that as a
>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways
>> of
>> getting information that had not been explored before. A significant
>> portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was
>> something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up
>> a
>> KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention
>> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the
>> content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended
>> science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been
>> able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and
>> major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this
>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now
>> if we hadn't tried it.
>>
>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My
>> point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't
>> know
>> for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference.
>> Frankly,
>> I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as
>> one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can
>> eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get
>> into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS
>> product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader?
>> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a
>> reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a
>> computer screen instead of having
>>
>> to
>> educate every person who writes
>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us
>>
>> to
>> control the Google self-driving cars
>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least
>> some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I
>> do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were
>> in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed
>> above,
>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change.
>> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe,
>> what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm
>> not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and
>> must
>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization.
>>
>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers
>> won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes
>> imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such
>> training
>> based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and
>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what
>> is
>> addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our
>> other
>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that
>> you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just
>> one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training.
>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>> Legislating
>> that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based
>> upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we
>> don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that
>> much if we don't get a good basic education.
>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if
>> there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one
>> thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't
>> see
>> any given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>
>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the
>> complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it
>> is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how
>> our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the
>> challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more
>> important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that
>> outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I
>> think
>> our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is
>> what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that
>> branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We
>> need the help of all members, though, to handle change.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>
>> Arielle,
>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>
>> Joe,
>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my
>> own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's
>> history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving
>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to
>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think
>> the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors
>> of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in
>> a
>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when
>> those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with
>> political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level,
>> and more still within our local chapters.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joe,
>>
>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the
>> Braille
>> Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the
>> increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national
>> convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors and
>> prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on
>> philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the
>> like.
>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now,
>> and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a
>> decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources.
>> So
>> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a loss
>> of programs and resources.
>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly shameful. I
>> do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because
>> they
>> perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle
>> choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is
>> reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all
>> organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially
>> sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real lack
>> of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is
>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and
>> was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt completely
>> accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage
>> prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a
>> different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance there.
>> But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the
>> organization.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com>
>> wrote:
>> Hello all.
>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life,
>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all
>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does.
>> Thanks.
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RJ Sandefur
>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing
>> list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>
>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without
>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor.
>> RJ
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>
>>
>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I
>> was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the
>> company
>>
>> of
>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a
>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a
>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real
>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a
>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership
>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's
>> spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced
>> with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings.
>>
>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit
>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more
>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing
>> that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was
>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort.
>> I
>> found
>> it
>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose
>> of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating
>> more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most
>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called
>> friends from whom
>>
>> I
>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB
>> fundraising campaigns.
>>
>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the
>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts
>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in
>> scope.
>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or
>> the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new
>> blood
>> and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and
>> resources we've already had.
>>
>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>> professionals.
>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will
>> be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the
>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never
>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind
>> when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too
>> much of
>>
>> a
>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough
>> to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant
>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB
>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true
>> to
>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves
>> incapable of sustaining.
>>
>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want
>>
>> it
>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what
>> I
>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of
>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only
>> guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave
>> the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be
>> your
>> own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never
>> give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you
>> always had
>>
>> to
>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I
>> will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse
>> this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB
>> is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that.
>> Whether
>> or
>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it
>> to
>> exist.
>>
>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've
>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem
>> happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp.
>> The
>> few
>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a
>> lesson in financial management to you.
>>
>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would
>> never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to
>> provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up
>> through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have
>> no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they
>> couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you
>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the
>> greater our strength.
>>
>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be
>> the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to
>> answer
>> the original question, my answer would be this:
>>
>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume
>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not,
>> and
>> wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> --
>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>
>> Visit my blog:
>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>
>>
>>
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>> --
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:06:52 -0600
>> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
>> Message-ID:
>> <CALAYQJCCdy49+7PU=
>> YeX5TK22OW8zapRap11moBS5JZeNg55Dw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division
>> could work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division
>> that is led by blind people with mental illness.
>> Arielle
>>
>>> On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson <nelsonsam68 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>> I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred percent
>>> agree that there needs to be more connection between support/ services
>> for
>>> the blind and for those that have other disabilities along with
>> blindness.
>>> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental illness.
>> I
>>> agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and them not
>>> understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how mental illness
>>> might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of misunderstanding with
>>> blindness profesionals not understanding how mental illness might
>> interfere
>>> with living on one's own getting a standard full time job ETC and so
>> their
>>> scope of services don't allow for anything outside what they perceive to
>> be
>>> normal.
>>> I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called
>>> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is a
>>> very
>>> close knit community and we all support each other day to day with these
>>> struggles, providing encouragement and resources if possible and most of
>>> all
>>> just our friendship.
>>> Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric clinic
>>> and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know anthing about
>>> this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a contact person
>> as
>>> I'd be very curious to know more about the program and how they do
>>> things.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth
>> Taurasi
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing Desiree
>>> described, someone whose parents get guardianship because they're sighted
>>> and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that guardianship.
>>> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they will
>> not
>>> take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case against them
>>> because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects lots of my man
>> to
>>> woman relationships. Currently, my relationship with my friend Blake, a
>>> guy
>>> from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down, I wish I could swoop Blake up
>>> and
>>> take him back here to Denver. But alas, the guardianship prevents us
>> from
>>> marrying. To say that such persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of
>>> Orwell's 1984 "unpersons" is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would
>> be
>>> complicated, and if such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound
>>> harsh.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list <
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we
>> may
>>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those
>>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without
>>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to
>>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind
>>> people,
>>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish
>>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally
>> with
>>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming
>>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from
>> the
>>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have
>> phrased
>>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>>
>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but
>>> I'm
>>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle
>> pointed
>>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean,
>> it's
>>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive
>>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and
>>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience,
>> but
>>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another
>>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense.
>>>
>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>>> unitarian
>>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I
>>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than
>>> the
>>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy,
>>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was
>> not
>>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even
>>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know
>>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent
>>> part of convention?
>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would
>>> hate
>>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members,
>>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to
>> pretend
>>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve
>> the
>>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or
>>> circumstances
>>> doesn't seem right.
>>> Sorry for the rant.
>>>
>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never
>> happen
>>> again.
>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then they
>>> just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the
>> devisions
>>> are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and be the darling
>>> of
>>>
>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with chapters
>>> and
>>>
>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering what
>>> happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give examples of
>>> backing the wrong person.
>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew
>> up
>>> in
>>>
>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling
>> of
>>> the federation. Have a blessed day.
>>> Best Wishes
>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>>
>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to
>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the
>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something like
>>> that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely
>> understand
>>> the leadership's desire not to have a division for every special
>> interest.
>>> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what should
>>> constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a division for car
>>> enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then not even allow an
>> LGBT
>>> group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want
>>> LGBT because it's too politically controversial and then have religious
>>> invocations at all the general sessions. Has the general membership ever
>>> even been polled about whether to keep having these religious
>> invocations?
>>> In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects
>> the
>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we
>> really
>>> need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed and what
>>> kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify forming a
>>> division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run group can
>>> probably
>>> be just as effective without a lot of the hassle associated with keeping
>>> up
>>> a division. I know at least some of the folks in the LGBT group would
>> have
>>> been totally happy with just a group, not a full division, but even that
>>> wasn't supported.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list.
>>> But the
>>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the under
>>> served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not
>>> occurring.
>>>
>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a
>> diverse
>>> population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more diverse. I
>>> also
>>>
>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if they
>>> have
>>>
>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything to
>>> assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together and
>>> wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered
>> people.
>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the announcement
>>> and
>>>
>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left the
>>> federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that the
>>> leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more
>>> changes
>>>
>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see
>> what
>>> happens.
>>> Have a blessed day.
>>> Best Wishes
>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>>> multipledisabilities?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>> that's
>>> come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also
>>> have
>>> other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with
>>> additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the
>>> number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting
>>> educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think
>> that,
>>> for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training
>> to
>>> the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think
>>> that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate
>> the
>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when
>> we
>>> think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental
>>> illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but
>>> especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to
>>> stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I
>>> can
>>> see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or
>>> chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks
>>> who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the
>>> ups
>>> and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly
>>> creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting
>>> lost.
>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment,
>>> education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with.
>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>> blindness,
>>> but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups
>> within
>>> the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division,
>>> but
>>> I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard
>>> about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes
>>> sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns
>> they'd
>>> want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has
>>> not been formed.
>>> I
>>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health
>>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are
>>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't
>>> exist
>>> because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't
>> been
>>> enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such
>>> divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain
>>> leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a
>>> vehicle
>>> for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups
>>> specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on
>> blindness. I
>>> hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from
>> you
>>> about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While
>>> there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership
>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the
>>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to
>>> be
>>> elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>> Joe and others,
>>>
>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative
>>> is
>>> wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect
>>> so
>>> our creations are not likely going
>>>
>>> to
>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one
>>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as
>>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an
>>> expansion
>>> that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have
>> to
>>> raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing
>> that
>>> this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and
>>> then
>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear
>> that
>>> legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I
>>> completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that
>> the
>>> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I
>> feel
>>> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by
>> legislation
>>> alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of
>>> emphasis
>>> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be
>>> accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it
>>> isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job,
>> all
>>> by itself.
>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the
>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information
>> that
>>> is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a
>>> car,
>>> although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point.
>>> However, I
>>> got
>>> very excited about the fact that as a
>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways
>>> of
>>> getting information that had not been explored before. A significant
>>> portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was
>>> something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held
>> up
>>> a
>>> KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention
>>> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the
>>> content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have
>> attended
>>> science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have
>> been
>>> able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers,
>> and
>>> major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of
>> this
>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even
>> now
>>> if we hadn't tried it.
>>>
>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My
>>> point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't
>>> know
>>> for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference.
>>> Frankly,
>>> I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as
>>> one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can
>>> eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get
>>> into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS
>>> product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader?
>>> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a
>>> reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a
>>> computer screen instead of having
>>>
>>> to
>>> educate every person who writes
>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for
>> us
>>>
>>> to
>>> control the Google self-driving cars
>>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least
>>> some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say.
>> What I
>>> do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we
>> were
>>> in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed
>>> above,
>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change.
>>> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change.
>> Joe,
>>> what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change.
>> I'm
>>> not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and
>>> must
>>> learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization.
>>>
>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers
>>> won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes
>>> imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such
>>> training
>>> based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties
>> and
>>> challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what
>>> is
>>> addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our
>>> other
>>> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea
>> that
>>> you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not
>> just
>>> one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training.
>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>>> Legislating
>>> that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based
>>> upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if
>> we
>>> don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all
>> that
>>> much if we don't get a good basic education.
>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if
>>> there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any
>> one
>>> thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't
>>> see
>>> any given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>>
>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the
>>> complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However,
>> it
>>> is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and
>> how
>>> our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address
>> the
>>> challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more
>>> important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that
>>> outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I
>>> think
>>> our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions
>> is
>>> what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that
>>> branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We
>>> need the help of all members, though, to handle change.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>>
>>> Arielle,
>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>>
>>> Joe,
>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring
>> my
>>> own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's
>>> history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has
>> moving
>>> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to
>>> cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I
>> think
>>> the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and
>> mirrors
>>> of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics
>> in
>>> a
>>> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though
>> when
>>> those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with
>>> political power are treated with hostility by some at the national
>> level,
>>> and more still within our local chapters.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Joe,
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the
>>> Braille
>>> Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the
>>> increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national
>>> convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors
>> and
>>> prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on
>>> philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the
>>> like.
>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now,
>>> and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a
>>> decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources.
>>> So
>>> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a
>> loss
>>> of programs and resources.
>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>> shameful. I
>>> do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because
>>> they
>>> perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle
>>> choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is
>>> reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all
>>> organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially
>>> sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real
>> lack
>>> of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again,
>> is
>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and
>>> was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt
>> completely
>>> accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage
>>> prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a
>>> different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance
>> there.
>>> But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in
>> the
>>> organization.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Hello all.
>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own
>> life,
>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all
>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does.
>>> Thanks.
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>> mailing
>>> list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>
>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
>> without
>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor.
>>> RJ
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>
>>>
>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I
>>> was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the
>>> company
>>>
>>> of
>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a
>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a
>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real
>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a
>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend
>> leadership
>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's
>>> spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced
>>> with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings.
>>>
>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit
>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more
>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing
>>> that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was
>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort.
>>> I
>>> found
>>> it
>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly
>> dose
>>> of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of
>> generating
>>> more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most
>>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called
>>> friends from whom
>>>
>>> I
>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB
>>> fundraising campaigns.
>>>
>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about
>> the
>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development
>> efforts
>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in
>>> scope.
>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top,
>> or
>>> the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new
>>> blood
>>> and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and
>>> resources we've already had.
>>>
>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>>> professionals.
>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever
>> will
>>> be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun
>> the
>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never
>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind
>>> when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too
>>> much of
>>>
>>> a
>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough
>>> to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant
>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the
>> NFB
>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true
>>> to
>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves
>>> incapable of sustaining.
>>>
>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't
>> want
>>>
>>> it
>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what
>>> I
>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge
>> of
>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only
>>> guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and
>> leave
>>> the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be
>>> your
>>> own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never
>>> give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you
>>> always had
>>>
>>> to
>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I
>>> will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse
>>> this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the
>> NFB
>>> is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that.
>>> Whether
>>> or
>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it
>>> to
>>> exist.
>>>
>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what
>> I've
>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem
>>> happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp.
>>> The
>>> few
>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a
>>> lesson in financial management to you.
>>>
>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would
>>> never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to
>>> provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming
>> up
>>> through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you
>> have
>>> no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they
>>> couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of
>> you
>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the
>>> greater our strength.
>>>
>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be
>>> the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to
>>> answer
>>> the original question, my answer would be this:
>>>
>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
>> consume
>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not,
>>> and
>>> wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> --
>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>
>>> Visit my blog:
>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:12:47 -0600
>> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CALAYQJAwXBGM9vQqw2ouMGs8+Aed6Crq2TXznjDU7KsSAOWxNw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy
>> itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up"
>> mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also
>> historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind
>> including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal
>> position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've
>> picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and
>> pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in
>> addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments.
>> In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent
>> years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think
>> the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual
>> approach of empowering blind people while also making environments
>> more hospitable for us.
>>
>> Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on
>> themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the
>> old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often
>> stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are
>> today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider
>> (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out
>> to other blind people for help.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>>> On 4/2/14, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the nfb.
>>> Great point Ashley.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
>>> Bramlett
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>> Kaiti,
>>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions
>> too.
>>>
>>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition.
>>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy
>>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on
>>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is
>>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government;
>>> get
>>> a job.
>>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you
>> can
>>> be financially independent through other means with out the job.
>>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances
>>> who
>>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes
>> a
>>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is
>> doing
>>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like
>>> raisers edge.
>>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your
>> bootstraps
>>> with no outside help.
>>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and
>> ACB
>>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these
>>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them.
>> Things
>>> may change soon.
>>>
>>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed.
>>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope
>> this
>>> does not happen again.
>>>
>>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other
>>> disability groups.
>>>
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Kaiti Shelton
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we
>> may
>>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those
>>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without
>>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to
>>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind
>>> people,
>>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish
>>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally
>> with
>>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming
>>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from
>> the
>>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have
>> phrased
>>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>>
>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but
>>> I'm
>>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle
>> pointed
>>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean,
>> it's
>>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive
>>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and
>>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience,
>> but
>>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another
>>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense.
>>>
>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>>> unitarian
>>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I
>>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than
>>> the
>>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy,
>>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was
>> not
>>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even
>>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know
>>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent
>>> part of convention?
>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would
>>> hate
>>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members,
>>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to
>> pretend
>>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve
>> the
>>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or
>>> circumstances
>>> doesn't seem right.
>>> Sorry for the rant.
>>>
>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never
>>>> happen again.
>>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then
>>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the
>>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and
>>>> be the darling of
>>>>
>>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with
>>>> chapters and
>>>>
>>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering
>>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give
>>>> examples of backing the wrong person.
>>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew
>>>> up in
>>>>
>>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling
>>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day.
>>>> Best Wishes
>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>>>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to
>>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the
>>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something
>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely
>>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every
>>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded
>>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make
>>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual
>>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal
>>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too
>>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all
>>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled
>>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other
>>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the
>>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we
>>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed
>>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify
>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run
>>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle
>>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the
>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a
>>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
>>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But
>>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of
>>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this
>>>>> is not occurring.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a
>>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more
>>>>> diverse. I also
>>>>>
>>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if
>>>>> they have
>>>>>
>>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything
>>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came
>>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and
>>>>> transgendered people.
>>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the
>>>>> announcement and
>>>>>
>>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left
>>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that
>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for
>>>>> social purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more
>>>>> changes
>>>>>
>>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see
>>>>> what happens.
>>>>> Have a blessed day.
>>>>> Best Wishes
>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>>>>> multipledisabilities?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number
>>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase,
>>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional
>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
>>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people
>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
>>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true
>>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities
>>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
>>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly
>>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from
>>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel
>>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
>>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
>>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to
>>>>> help them with.
>>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions
>>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a
>>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its
>>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
>>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind
>>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss
>>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been
>>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental
>>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and
>>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such
>>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or
>>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them
>>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have
>>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the
>>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and
>>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if
>>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes
>>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how
>>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there
>>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership
>>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from
>>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are
>>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Joe and others,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
>>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we
>>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't
>>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We
>>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in
>>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do
>>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this
>>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then
>>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear
>>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget.
>>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I
>>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt
>>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems
>>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for
>>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation
>>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I
>>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make
>>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself.
>>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the
>>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information
>>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to
>>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that
>>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a
>>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of
>>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A
>>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the
>>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving
>>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered
>>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a
>>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably
>>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one
>>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor
>>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major
>>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this
>>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even
>>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this.
>>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We
>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a
>>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much
>>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you
>>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some
>>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we
>>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of
>>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader
>>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial
>>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of
>>>>>> having
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> educate every person who writes
>>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way
>>>>>> for us
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we
>>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are
>>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that
>>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the
>>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above,
>>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we
>>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to
>>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the
>>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be
>>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as
>>>>>> individuals and as an organization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
>>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does
>>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions
>>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and
>>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as
>>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND
>>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers.
>>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you
>>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not
>>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through
>>>>>> training.
>>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot
>>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it
>>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even
>>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic
>>>>>> education.
>>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem
>>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick
>>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and
>>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact
>>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were.
>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we
>>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can
>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need
>>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
>>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization.
>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of
>>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us
>>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out
>>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the
>>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
>>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I
>>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the
>>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I
>>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I
>>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB
>>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of
>>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics
>>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame
>>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to
>>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the
>>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the
>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are
>>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also
>>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a
>>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and
>>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is
>>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like.
>>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is
>>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut
>>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable
>>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the
>>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources.
>>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not
>>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
>>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is
>>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped
>>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members
>>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of
>>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance
>>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is
>>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind
>>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I
>>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so
>>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative
>>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and
>>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this
>>>>>>>> is
>>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello all.
>>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my
>>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one
>>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB
>>>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
>>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have
>>>>>>>>> a mentoor.
>>>>>>>>> RJ
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
>>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad
>>>>>>>>>> to be in the company
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited
>>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up
>>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my
>>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's
>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington
>>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I
>>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with
>>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
>>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in
>>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I
>>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting
>>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to
>>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder
>>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of
>>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of
>>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the
>>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their
>>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
>>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead
>>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the
>>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope.
>>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the
>>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
>>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about
>>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>>>>>>>>>> professionals.
>>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I
>>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve,
>>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or
>>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's
>>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste
>>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable
>>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should
>>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women
>>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas,
>>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some
>>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of
>>>>>>>>>> sustaining.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
>>>>>>>>>> don't want
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well
>>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college
>>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to
>>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's
>>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and
>>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and
>>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give
>>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what
>>>>>>>>>> you always had
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president,
>>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave
>>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer
>>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective
>>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that.
>>>>>>>>>> Whether
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we
>>>>>>>>>> want it to exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know
>>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the
>>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to
>>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do
>>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial
>>>>>>>>>> management to you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
>>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My
>>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new
>>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if
>>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading.
>>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut
>>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you
>>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there
>>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here
>>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some
>>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be
>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
>>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away
>>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog:
>>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks
>>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel
>>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 16:24:23 -0500
>> From: "Sam Nelson" <nelsonsam68 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
>> Message-ID: <02a101cf4eb9$eb725a50$c2570ef0$@gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> Hi Ariel,
>> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support. Which is
>> such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days.
>> Sam
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
>> Silverman
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
>>
>> I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division could
>> work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that is led
>> by blind people with mental illness.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson <nelsonsam68 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>> I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred
>>> percent agree that there needs to be more connection between support/
>>> services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities along
>> with blindness.
>>> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental
>>> illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists and
>>> them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how
>>> mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of
>>> misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how
>>> mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a
>>> standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't allow
>>> for anything outside what they perceive to be normal.
>>> I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called
>>> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it is
>>> a very close knit community and we all support each other day to day
>>> with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if
>>> possible and most of all just our friendship.
>>> Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric
>>> clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know
>>> anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere for a
>>> contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the program
>>> and how they do things.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth
>>> Taurasi
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>> Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing
>>> Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because
>>> they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because of that
>> guardianship.
>>> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they
>>> will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a case
>>> against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it affects
>>> lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship
>>> with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep down,
>>> I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver. But
>>> alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such
>>> persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984 "unpersons"
>>> is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and if
>>> such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we
>>> may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and
>>> those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities
>>> without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the
>>> starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a
>>> huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for
>>> working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the
>>> same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay, then
>>> we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships with
>>> that group. Once repore is established, people from the various
>>> organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased it
>>> better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>>
>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described,
>>> but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as
>>> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like the
>>> car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss
>>> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion is
>>> purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather
>>> than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind people
>>> who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me,
>>> that just doesn't make sense.
>>>
>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>>> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself
>>> at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature are
>>> more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives aren't
>>> always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is important
>>> that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB had
>>> any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what
>>> Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in this
>>> light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of convention?
>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I
>>> would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double
>>> minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the
>>> greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us are
>>> less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to suit
>>> their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right.
>>> Sorry for the rant.
>>>
>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never
>>> happen again.
>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then
>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the
>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and
>>> be the darling of
>>>
>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with
>>> chapters and
>>>
>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering
>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give
>>> examples of backing the wrong person.
>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and
>>> grew up in
>>>
>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the
>>> darling of the federation. Have a blessed day.
>>> Best Wishes
>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>>
>>>
>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to
>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the
>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something
>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely
>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every
>> special interest.
>>> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what
>>> should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a
>>> division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and then
>>> not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We can't
>>> try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically
>>> controversial and then have religious invocations at all the general
>>> sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about whether
>> to keep having these religious invocations?
>>> In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects
>>> the president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we
>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed
>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify
>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run
>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle
>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the
>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a
>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list.
>>> But the
>>> devision never came into being. I think that the committee of the
>>> under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is not
>>> occurring.
>>>
>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a
>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more
>>> diverse. I also
>>>
>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if
>>> they have
>>>
>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything
>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came together
>>> and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and transgendered
>> people.
>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the
>>> announcement and
>>>
>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left
>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that
>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for social
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more
>>> changes
>>>
>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see
>>> what happens.
>>> Have a blessed day.
>>> Best Wishes
>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>>> multipledisabilities?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of
>>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and
>>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional
>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people
>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when
>>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and
>>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly
>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from
>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel
>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help
>> them with.
>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions
>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a
>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its
>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair
>>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each
>>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed.
>>> I
>>> would love to see a division for blind people with mental health
>>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are
>>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't
>>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just
>>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think
>>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional
>>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and
>>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about
>>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole
>>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be
>>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with
>>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something
>>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in
>>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the
>>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going
>>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>> Joe and others,
>>>
>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we
>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going
>>>
>>> to
>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one
>>> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as
>>> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an
>>> expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we
>>> used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB
>>> supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our
>>> budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as
>>> you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are
>>> not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with
>>> legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made
>>> contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel
>>> particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by
>>> legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is
>>> a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force
>>> software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is
>>> necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us,
>>> particularly on the job, all by itself.
>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the
>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information
>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to
>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that
>>> at some point.
>>> However, I
>>> got
>>> very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the
>>> problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information
>>> that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our
>>> budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something
>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB
>>> reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention
>>> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the
>>> content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have
>>> attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts.
>>> We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind
>>> lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We
>>> couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this
>>> would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it.
>>>
>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this.
>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We
>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a
>>> difference.
>>> Frankly,
>>> I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work
>>> as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can
>>> eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids
>>> get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the
>>> new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB
>> reader?
>>> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a
>>> reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software
>>> on a computer screen instead of having
>>>
>>> to
>>> educate every person who writes
>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way
>>> for us
>>>
>>> to
>>> control the Google self-driving cars
>>> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at
>>> least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really
>>> say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots
>>> organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on
>>> some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that.
>>> But it also means that we change.
>>> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change.
>>> Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of
>>> change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way,
>>> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as
>>> an organization.
>>>
>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does
>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions
>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and
>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a
>>> blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated
>>> here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the
>>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have
>>> a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool.
>>> Still, we have to do more than run people through training.
>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>>> Legislating
>>> that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate
>>> based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter
>>> much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't
>>> matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education.
>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem
>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick
>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and
>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>>
>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact
>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were.
>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we
>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can
>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need
>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization.
>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of
>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us
>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out
>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the
>>> help of all members, though, to handle change.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>>
>>> Arielle,
>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>>
>>> Joe,
>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the
>>> organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the
>>> organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in
>>> high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this
>>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members
>>> who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to
>>> discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that
>>> isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less
>>> willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power
>>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more
>>> still within our local chapters.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Joe,
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the
>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying
>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like
>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all
>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that
>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize
>>> drawings and the like.
>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is
>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to
>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income
>> sources.
>>> So
>>> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a
>>> loss of programs and resources.
>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to
>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment
>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only,
>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical
>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that
>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there
>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the
>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not
>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I
>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all
>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a
>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division
>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there.
>>> But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in
>>> the organization.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Hello all.
>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own
>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size
>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does.
>>> Thanks.
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>>> mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>
>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a
>> mentoor.
>>> RJ
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>
>>>
>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there
>>> I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in
>>> the company
>>>
>>> of
>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as
>>> a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as
>>> a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the
>>> real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from
>>> attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the
>>> weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited
>>> to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall
>>> through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent
>> gatherings.
>>>
>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it
>>> needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather
>>> disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen
>>> to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or
>> that
>> effort.
>>> I
>>> found
>>> it
>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly
>>> dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of
>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps
>>> the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from
>>> so-called friends from whom
>>>
>>> I
>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB
>>> fundraising campaigns.
>>>
>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about
>>> the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development
>>> efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also
>>> national in scope.
>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the
>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about
>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had.
>>>
>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>>> professionals.
>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever
>>> will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they
>>> shun the organization because they were turned away or because they
>>> were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have
>>> kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the
>>> organization. I had too much of
>>>
>>> a
>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable
>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have
>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could
>>> have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most
>>> important, remaining true to the cause and not some
>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of
>>> sustaining.
>>>
>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't
>>> want
>>>
>>> it
>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know
>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the
>>> verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner
>>> will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the
>>> organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys
>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will
>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The
>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had
>>>
>>> to
>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and
>>> I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to
>>> reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world
>>> where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen
>> to that.
>>> Whether
>>> or
>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want
>>> it to exist.
>>>
>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what
>>> I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They
>>> seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our
>> camp.
>>> The
>>> few
>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a
>>> lesson in financial management to you.
>>>
>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only
>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of
>>> leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste
>>> the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher
>>> who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I
>>> want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to
>>> do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength.
>>>
>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I
>>> be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt
>>> to answer the original question, my answer would be this:
>>>
>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what
>>> will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> --
>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>
>>> Visit my blog:
>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:54:14 -0500
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>> Message-ID: <auto-000016812676 at mailback4.g2host.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> As a person involved some in technology, could you explain more about
>> Razor's Edge and which companies are using
>> it that you have encountered? If you look at the myriad of accessibility
>> issues, it is hard to know how to
>> prioritize them. Unfortunately, many issues do not fall cleanly under
>> existing laws. What I mean by cleanly is
>> that laws may apply in such a borderline fashion that getting a positive
>> decision is unlikely. I am
>> oversimplifying this some, but to a large degree there is no law
>> preventing companies from producing inaccessible
>> software. Where are lever has been is in affecting software by making it
>> illegal or at least harder to have
>> governmental entities buy it. In some cases we have been successful when
>> a private business had an inaccessible
>> web site but their web site was used to enhance the experience at a public
>> location. This whole area of
>> accessibility to websites and software on the job is not well defined
>> legally at all. I know that the
>> International Braille and Technology Center works with many companies all
>> the time and an attempt has been made to
>> publicize the efforts of companies who have made their software
>> accessible. There needs to be a ton of work done
>> on this yet and in some cases, there is not much that can be done legally.
>> If you have brought Razor's Edge to
>> the national Office and they have told you it isn't important enough to
>> work on, I would be very surprised.
>> However, there are a number of reasons why it might not be that easy to
>> correct very quickly including the good
>> old "reasonable effort" and "Undo Burden" language in many laws.
>>
>> Would you say more about this?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
>> Bramlett
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>
>>> Kaiti,
>>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions
>> too.
>>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition.
>>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the philosophy
>>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society on
>>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization is
>>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on government;
>> get
>>> a job.
>>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that you
>> can
>>> be financially independent through other means with out the job.
>>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family inherritances
>> who
>>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which precludes a
>>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is
>> doing
>>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases like
>>> raisers edge.
>>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps
>>> with no outside help.
>>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative and
>> ACB
>>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with these
>>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them. Things
>>> may change soon.
>>
>>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed.
>>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope
>> this
>>> does not happen again.
>>
>>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other
>>> disability groups.
>>
>>> Ashley
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Kaiti Shelton
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>
>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we may
>>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and those
>>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without
>>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point to
>>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind
>> people,
>>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to accomplish
>>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally with
>>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start forming
>>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people from
>> the
>>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased
>>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>
>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described, but
>> I'm
>>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle pointed
>>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean,
>> it's
>>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even drive
>>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and
>>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user experience,
>> but
>>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for another
>>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense.
>>
>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>> unitarian
>>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so I
>>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal than
>> the
>>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be happy,
>>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I was
>> not
>>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and even
>>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't know
>>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent
>>> part of convention?
>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I would
>> hate
>>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members,
>>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to
>> pretend
>>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't deserve
>> the
>>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or
>> circumstances
>>> doesn't seem right.
>>> Sorry for the rant.
>>
>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never
>>>> happen again.
>>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then
>>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the
>>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and
>>>> be the darling of
>>>>
>>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with
>>>> chapters and
>>>>
>>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering
>>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give
>>>> examples of backing the wrong person.
>>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and grew
>>>> up in
>>>>
>>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the darling
>>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day.
>>>> Best Wishes
>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>>>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to
>>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the
>>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something
>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely
>>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every
>>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded
>>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make
>>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual
>>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal
>>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too
>>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all
>>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled
>>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other
>>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the
>>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we
>>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed
>>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify
>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run
>>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle
>>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the
>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a
>>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
>>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But
>>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of
>>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this
>>>>> is not occurring.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a
>>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more
>>>>> diverse. I also
>>>>>
>>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if
>>>>> they have
>>>>>
>>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything
>>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came
>>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and
>>>>> transgendered people.
>>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the
>>>>> announcement and
>>>>>
>>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left
>>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that
>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for
>>>>> social purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more
>>>>> changes
>>>>>
>>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see
>>>>> what happens.
>>>>> Have a blessed day.
>>>>> Best Wishes
>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>>>>> multipledisabilities?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number
>>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase,
>>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional
>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
>>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people
>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
>>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true
>>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities
>>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
>>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly
>>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from
>>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel
>>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
>>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
>>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to
>>>>> help them with.
>>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions
>>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a
>>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its
>>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
>>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind
>>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss
>>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been
>>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental
>>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and
>>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such
>>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or
>>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them
>>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have
>>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the
>>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and
>>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if
>>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes
>>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how
>>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there
>>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership
>>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from
>>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are
>>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Joe and others,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
>>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we
>>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't
>>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We
>>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in
>>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do
>>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this
>>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then
>>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear
>>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget.
>>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I
>>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt
>>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems
>>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for
>>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation
>>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I
>>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make
>>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself.
>>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the
>>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information
>>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to
>>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that
>>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a
>>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of
>>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A
>>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the
>>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving
>>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered
>>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a
>>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably
>>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one
>>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor
>>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major
>>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this
>>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even
>>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this.
>>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We
>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a
>>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much
>>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you
>>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some
>>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we
>>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of
>>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader
>>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial
>>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of
>>>>>> having
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> educate every person who writes
>>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way
>>>>>> for us
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we
>>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are
>>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that
>>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the
>>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above,
>>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we
>>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to
>>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the
>>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be
>>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as
>>>>>> individuals and as an organization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
>>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does
>>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions
>>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and
>>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as
>>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND
>>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers.
>>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you
>>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not
>>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through
>>>>>> training.
>>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot
>>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it
>>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even
>>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic
>>>>>> education.
>>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem
>>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick
>>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and
>>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact
>>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were.
>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we
>>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can
>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need
>>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
>>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization.
>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of
>>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us
>>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out
>>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the
>>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
>>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I
>>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the
>>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I
>>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I
>>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB
>>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of
>>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics
>>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame
>>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to
>>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the
>>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the
>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are
>>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also
>>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a
>>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and
>>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is
>>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like.
>>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is
>>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut
>>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable
>>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the
>>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources.
>>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not
>>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
>>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is
>>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped
>>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members
>>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of
>>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance
>>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is
>>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind
>>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I
>>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so
>>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative
>>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and
>>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this
>> is
>>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello all.
>>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my
>>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one
>>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB
>>>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
>>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have
>>>>>>>>> a mentoor.
>>>>>>>>> RJ
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
>>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad
>>>>>>>>>> to be in the company
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited
>>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up
>>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my
>>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's
>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington
>>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I
>>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with
>>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
>>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in
>>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I
>>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting
>>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to
>>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder
>>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of
>>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of
>>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the
>>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their
>>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
>>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead
>>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the
>>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope.
>>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the
>>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
>>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about
>>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>>>>>>>>>> professionals.
>>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I
>>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve,
>>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or
>>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's
>>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste
>>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable
>>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should
>>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women
>>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas,
>>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some
>>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of
>>>>>>>>>> sustaining.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
>>>>>>>>>> don't want
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well
>>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college
>>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to
>>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's
>>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and
>>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and
>>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give
>>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what
>>>>>>>>>> you always had
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president,
>>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave
>>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer
>>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective
>>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that.
>>>>>>>>>> Whether
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we
>>>>>>>>>> want it to exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know
>>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the
>>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to
>>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do
>>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial
>>>>>>>>>> management to you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
>>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My
>>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new
>>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if
>>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading.
>>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut
>>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you
>>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there
>>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here
>>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some
>>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be
>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
>>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away
>>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog:
>>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>
>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>
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>> ------------------------------
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