[nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness

Beth Taurasi denverqueen1107 at comcast.net
Fri Apr 4 18:11:46 UTC 2014


I think we could work it one of two ways: thte majority could be blind 
folks with the diagnosed mental illnesses and those who work with them, 
so we can have more spots open and more people to elect as leaders and 
nobody gets excluded.  We also need to understand that those with other 
chronic disabilities not included in the NFB could also be served by 
this, after all mental health goes hand in hand with other disabilities.
Beth
On 4/4/2014 9:45 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
> Carly et al,
>
> Perhaps Darian explained what I meant before I had a chance to see
> your message, but I'm a little puzzled by your confusion.  I was
> merely suggesting that this group include those who wish to support
> others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student
> divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are
> concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support
> is welcome.  Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which
> state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily
> in presidential and vice presidential positions.  Case: My board has
> students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary,
> and our 2 board members.  Our corresponding secretary is not a student
> at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational
> experience better for us.
>
> This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation
> as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and
> contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not
> directly effected by mental illness.  I also did not say that because
> I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my
> line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and
> have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this
> list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few).  These people, though
> admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have
> identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution.  I just
> know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to
> be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have
> a mental illness myself because I do see it as important.  I
> definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The
> president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed
> with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must
> be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the
> division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested
> in giving support to join.
>
> Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that
> emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside
> member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the
> situation and restore order.  This still would not be speaking for the
> members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness,
> but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with
> the meeting.  I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but
> since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division
> a few months ago, where several members were offended because they
> interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help
> from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be
> helpful.  Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from
> having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not
> just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about.
>
> On 4/4/14, Darian <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for someone who
>> cannot speak for themselves?
>>   The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one can hope to be
>> in another person's best interest.
>> I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time and it will
>> not be the last time.
>>
>> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device.
>>
>>> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi <denverqueen1107 at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've got some bad news.  The mentally ill are not always capable of
>>> speaking for themselves.  I am lucky in that my illness does not make me
>>> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those
>>> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves
>>> because they can't relate.  Some people need the voices of people like me,
>>> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them.  Some mentally ill people are not
>>> really ill.  Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by
>>> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak.  Case in point, a guy
>>> called Mike.  He was a world class runner before the prodromal symtpoms,
>>> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer speaks, rather
>>> he died after being hit by a car.  But while he was alive, he couldn't
>>> even speak for himself, much less others.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote:
>>>> Good evening, Kaiti,
>>>>
>>>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called
>>>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation
>>>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of
>>>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill?
>>>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
>>>>> I think a good thing might look something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some
>>>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill
>>>>> people.  Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going
>>>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have
>>>>> mental illness throughout my career.  I would love to support such a
>>>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might
>>>>> want to do the same.  Plus, this follows the division model a little
>>>>> more closely.  More people than those directly effected would be able
>>>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as
>>>>> president.  I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution
>>>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be
>>>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a
>>>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long
>>>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join
>>>>> and aid in the cause.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Good morning, Sam, and everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle
>>>>>> illness!
>>>>>> for today, Car
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Ariel,
>>>>>>>   I agree. I love the  hotline idea! It would be true peer support.
>>>>>>> Which
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days.
>>>>>>>   Sam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
>>>>>>> Silverman
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> led
>>>>>>> by blind people with mental illness.
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson <nelsonsam68 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi  everyone,
>>>>>>>>   I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred
>>>>>>>> percent agree that there needs to be more connection between
>>>>>>>> support/
>>>>>>>> services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities
>>>>>>>> along
>>>>>>> with blindness.
>>>>>>>> Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental
>>>>>>>> illness. I agree with everything  Desiree said about therapists
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how
>>>>>>>> mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of
>>>>>>>> misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how
>>>>>>>> mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a
>>>>>>>> standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't
>>>>>>>> allow
>>>>>>>> for anything outside what they perceive to be normal.
>>>>>>>>   I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called
>>>>>>>> blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> a very close knit community  and we all support each other day to
>>>>>>>> day
>>>>>>>> with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if
>>>>>>>> possible and most of all just our friendship.
>>>>>>>>   Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric
>>>>>>>> clinic and daytreatment program  for the blind. Does  anyone know
>>>>>>>> anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere
>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>> contact person as I'd be  very curious to know more about the
>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>> and how they do things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Sam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth
>>>>>>>> Taurasi
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>>>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good ranting, Kaiti.  As someone who could fall under the thing
>>>>>>>> Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because
>>>>>>>> they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> guardianship.
>>>>>>>> Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they
>>>>>>>> will not take me off Facebook.  I am currently working to get a
>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>> against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it
>>>>>>>> affects
>>>>>>>> lots of my man to woman relationships.  Currently, my relationship
>>>>>>>> with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep
>>>>>>>> down,
>>>>>>>> I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver.
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>> alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such
>>>>>>>> persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984
>>>>>>>> "unpersons"
>>>>>>>> is wrong.  The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>>>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind,
>>>>>>>> (we
>>>>>>>> may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation),
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities
>>>>>>>> without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the
>>>>>>>> starting point to working interpersonally.  Much like the NFB is a
>>>>>>>> huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for
>>>>>>>> working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the
>>>>>>>> same.  If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay,
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> that group.  Once repore is established, people from the various
>>>>>>>> organizations can work interpersonally.  Darian might have phrased
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree
>>>>>>>> described,
>>>>>>>> but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as
>>>>>>>> Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> car one.  I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss
>>>>>>>> cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay?  To me,
>>>>>>>> that just doesn't make sense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>>>>>>>> unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label
>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>> at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> more liberal than the views of others.  However, conservatives
>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>> always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is
>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>> that we compromise.  I was not under the impression that the NFB
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>> any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what
>>>>>>>> Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term.  Even in
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of
>>>>>>>> convention?
>>>>>>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else?  I
>>>>>>>> would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double
>>>>>>>> minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the
>>>>>>>> greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to
>>>>>>>> suit
>>>>>>>> their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right.
>>>>>>>> Sorry for the rant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>   Arielle once again.  You are so right!  I also hope that will
>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>> happen again.
>>>>>>>>   Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> they just fall by the waist side.  Noone will keep it going.  IMO
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> be the darling of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   the Federation and the devision suffers.  The same happens with
>>>>>>>> chapters and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   state devisions.  Then everyone is shaking their head and
>>>>>>>> wondering
>>>>>>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out.  I could give
>>>>>>>> examples of backing the wrong person.
>>>>>>>>   Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and
>>>>>>>> grew up in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   the federation.  They have a lot of pressure on them to be the
>>>>>>>> darling of the federation.  Have a blessed day.
>>>>>>>>   Best Wishes
>>>>>>>>   Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>   From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>   To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>   <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>   Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>>>>>>>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something
>>>>>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I
>>>>>>>> completely
>>>>>>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for
>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> special interest.
>>>>>>>> However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what
>>>>>>>> should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a
>>>>>>>> division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal  meet-ups. We
>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>> try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically
>>>>>>>> controversial and then have religious invocations at all  the
>>>>>>>> general
>>>>>>>> sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled  about
>>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>> to keep having these religious invocations?
>>>>>>>> In other  words, unless we want to be in an organization that
>>>>>>>> reflects
>>>>>>>> the president's or the board's interests and political views alone,
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are
>>>>>>>> formed
>>>>>>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify
>>>>>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run
>>>>>>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the
>>>>>>>> hassle
>>>>>>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the
>>>>>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a
>>>>>>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>   what a good topic.  I know that there is a blind rollers list.
>>>>>>>> But the
>>>>>>>>   devision never came into being.  I think that the committee of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> occurring.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness.  Yet, we are a
>>>>>>>> diverse population.  So I believe that the nfb needs to become
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> diverse.  I also
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> they have
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do
>>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>> to assist blind people.  For example, years ago, a group came
>>>>>>>> together
>>>>>>>> and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and
>>>>>>>> transgendered
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>   I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the
>>>>>>>> announcement and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it.  Many people
>>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for
>>>>>>>> social
>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   and lots of diversity to the federation.  I am going to wait and
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> what happens.
>>>>>>>>   Have a blessed day.
>>>>>>>>   Best Wishes
>>>>>>>>   Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>   From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>   To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>   <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>   Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>>>>>>>>   Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>>>>>>>> multipledisabilities?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>>>>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
>>>>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> more than that, the number of blind people with additional
>>>>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
>>>>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
>>>>>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
>>>>>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>>>>>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and
>>>>>>>> mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
>>>>>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be
>>>>>>>> highly
>>>>>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
>>>>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can
>>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
>>>>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
>>>>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
>>>>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
>>>>>>>>   Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>>>>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
>>>>>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> them with.
>>>>>>>>   I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>>>>>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more
>>>>>>>> divisions
>>>>>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
>>>>>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind
>>>>>>>> wheelchair
>>>>>>>> users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each
>>>>>>>> other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>   would love to see a division for blind people with mental health
>>>>>>>> conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> having such divisions could help folks who have additional
>>>>>>>> disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a
>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>> should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> interested in other suggestions from you about how members with
>>>>>>>> multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in
>>>>>>>> order to change things, change also needs to come from the
>>>>>>>> organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>> to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Best,
>>>>>>>>   Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>   Joe and others,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
>>>>>>>> negative is wrong.  Organizations are made up of human beings and
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>   be perfect.  Still, some of what one
>>>>>>>>   person may seem as wrong  isn't so much a matter of right or wrong
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> perspective and opinion.  We embarked a good while back now on an
>>>>>>>> expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more  funds than
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> used to have to raise.  I  do not think I am alone among NFB
>>>>>>>> supporters in recognizing that this is  a  risk. When you look at
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> budget and  that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> you did, Joe,  it  is certainly clear that legislative  successes
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> not  proportional to one's budget.  Whether I completely agree
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> legislation  ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made
>>>>>>>> contributions.  However, I have felt for some time and I  feel
>>>>>>>> particularly more so now that our  problems can't be solved by
>>>>>>>> legislation alone.  Let's take  accessibility, for example.  There
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will
>>>>>>>> force
>>>>>>>> software to be accessible, for example.  I happen to believe  this
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us,
>>>>>>>> particularly on the job, all by itself.
>>>>>>>>   If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> limits  of current technology and explore ways  of getting
>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>> that is new.  I am not one who got all excited about  being able
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> drive a car, although I  certainly hope that blind people can do
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> at some point.
>>>>>>>> However, I
>>>>>>>>   got
>>>>>>>>   very excited about the fact that as a  result of looking at the
>>>>>>>> problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting
>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>> that had not been  explored before.  A significant portion of our
>>>>>>>> budget went into the KNFB  reader.  At the time, it was something
>>>>>>>> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a
>>>>>>>> KNFB
>>>>>>>> reader to the lists of registered people at  a national convention
>>>>>>>> that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it  start to read
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> content.  There have  probably been over a thousand kids who have
>>>>>>>> attended science camps of  one  kind or another through our
>>>>>>>> efforts.
>>>>>>>> We  have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind
>>>>>>>> lawyers,  teachers, and major players in the technology field.  We
>>>>>>>> couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's,  and much of
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> would not have been  done even now if we hadn't tried it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all
>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks  and perspectives.
>>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts  will make a
>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>> Frankly,
>>>>>>>> I am a  believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> as one  learns  from what does, because if you make a  mistake you
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> eliminate or refine that approach.  Will some of those  thousand
>>>>>>>> kids
>>>>>>>> get into math or science  because of what we did? Is the OCR in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> new HIMS product a little  better  because of what we did with the
>>>>>>>> KNFB
>>>>>>> reader?
>>>>>>>> Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever  see
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> reader that could use artificial  intelligence to interpret
>>>>>>>> software
>>>>>>>> on a computer screen instead of  having
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>   educate every person who writes
>>>>>>>>   software?  Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> for  us
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>   control the Google self-driving cars
>>>>>>>>   because of some of the work we did on our own car?  I hope that
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> say.  What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass  roots
>>>>>>>> organization that we were in the  80's couldn't have had any affect
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> some of what I've listed above, nor  was  it the right time for
>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>> But it  also means that we change.
>>>>>>>> Not only do we change, but we make mistakes  as we adjust to
>>>>>>>> change.
>>>>>>>> Joe, what you see  as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> change.  I'm not  satisfied  to say that it has to be that way,
>>>>>>>> though.  We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> an  organization.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
>>>>>>>> centers won't  miraculously make life better, and the marketing
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> sometimes imply that.  However, you are wrong to draw  conclusions
>>>>>>>> about such training based  upon the marketing. Discussing and
>>>>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> blind  person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND
>>>>>>>> Incorporated
>>>>>>>> here in  Minnesota and I assume by our other centers.  Some of the
>>>>>>>> point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> a set of tools to  approach a given situation and not just one
>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>> Still, we have to do  more  than run people through training.
>>>>>>>>   This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>>>>>>>> Legislating
>>>>>>>>   that software must be accessible and that  one cannot
>>>>>>>> discriminate
>>>>>>>> based upon a disability was and is still needed, but  it won't
>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>> much if we don't have  training.  Legislation and even training
>>>>>>>> won't
>>>>>>>> matter all that much if  we  don't get a good basic education.
>>>>>>>>   Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that
>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a  given area.  You can't
>>>>>>>> pick
>>>>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead  to success by itself,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> you can't see any  given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to
>>>>>>>> impact
>>>>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were.
>>>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> are going and how our  philosophy fits in.  The question of what
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
>>>>>>>> anyone  asking questions like that outside of this  organization.
>>>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of
>>>>>>>> asking for help and looking for  our own solutions is what has set
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is  risky, I think that branching
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> is a risk  worth taking to try to have a wider impact.  We need
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> help of all  members, though, to handle change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
>>>>>>>> furring  my own relationship with the NFB. while I  deeply respect
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> organization's history and truly appreciate the raw  potential the
>>>>>>>> organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in
>>>>>>>> high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this
>>>>>>>> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs
>>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>> who  can see past the smoke and mirrors of  PR, and who are willing
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that
>>>>>>>> isn't always easy to  hear. It is a shame though when those of us
>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>> willing to toe the line  and  pander to those with political power
>>>>>>>> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more
>>>>>>>> still  within our local chapters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> <arielle71 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are
>>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with
>>>>>>>> prize
>>>>>>>> drawings and the like.
>>>>>>>>   To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income
>>>>>>> sources.
>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>> NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative  could be
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> loss of programs and resources.
>>>>>>>>   I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
>>>>>>>> judgment
>>>>>>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception
>>>>>>>> only,
>>>>>>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical
>>>>>>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there
>>>>>>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I
>>>>>>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or
>>>>>>>> division
>>>>>>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there.
>>>>>>>> But at the same time,  this is something we need to be sensitive to
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the organization.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>   Hello all.
>>>>>>>>   This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement."  I live my
>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC.  I do not believe in a one size
>>>>>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does.
>>>>>>>>   Thanks.
>>>>>>>>   Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>   From: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>>>   Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>>>>>>>>   To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a
>>>>>>> mentoor.
>>>>>>>>   RJ
>>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>   From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>   To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>>>>   <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>   Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>>>>>>>>   Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> I was  caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the company
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   of
>>>>>>>>   so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from
>>>>>>>> attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> weekend  leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very
>>>>>>>> well-suited
>>>>>>>> to boost a person's spirit,  but I believe too many people fall
>>>>>>>> through the cracks when faced with  reality outside of those
>>>>>>>> infrequent
>>>>>>> gatherings.
>>>>>>>>   To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> needs  more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> disappointing that  so much of the board meeting I tuned into
>>>>>>>> listen
>>>>>>>> to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> effort.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>   found
>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>   even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our
>>>>>>>> monthly
>>>>>>>> dose of  inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> generating more  ways to drum up more financial support, but
>>>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>>> the most frustrating  byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> so-called friends  from  whom
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>>   have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their
>>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>>> fundraising campaigns.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead
>>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>>> efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also
>>>>>>>> national  in scope.
>>>>>>>>   They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the
>>>>>>>> top,  or the  only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and  raising new money and forget about
>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources  we've already had.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>>>>>>>> professionals.
>>>>>>>>   I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I
>>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>>> will be  and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> shun  the organization because they were turned away or because
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> were  never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> kept in  mind when  I had my brief taste of leadership in the
>>>>>>>> organization. I had too much  of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   a
>>>>>>>>   mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable
>>>>>>>> enough to  get the job done. But, getting the job done should have
>>>>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> have made  the  NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most
>>>>>>>> important, remaining  true to the cause and not some
>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find  ourselves incapable of
>>>>>>>> sustaining.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   it
>>>>>>>>   to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> verge  of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB
>>>>>>>> banner
>>>>>>>> will  only guide  your way so far. Take what's great about the
>>>>>>>> organization and leave the  political drama and marketing ploys
>>>>>>>> behind. In the end it will be your own  wits and talents that will
>>>>>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give  you anything new.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always  had
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>>   be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I will  be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to
>>>>>>>> reverse this  downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a
>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>> where the NFB is  necessary for collective momentum. Technology
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>> to that.
>>>>>>>>   Whether
>>>>>>>>   or
>>>>>>>>   not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>> it to exist.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house?
>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>> seem happier,  and that's something we can't seem to figure out in
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> camp.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>   few
>>>>>>>>   victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> lesson  in financial management to you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
>>>>>>>> would never  become one of those bitter former NFB members. My
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> goal was to provide  different perspectives to the new generation
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> leaders coming up through  the ranks. After all, if you never
>>>>>>>> taste
>>>>>>>> the real world, you have no  business leading. That's like the
>>>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>>>> who teaches because they couldn't  cut it, and believe it or not,
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> want to see more and more of you excel  at whatever it is you want
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do. The more of you there are, the greater  our strength.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> be the  rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame
>>>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>>>> to answer the  original question, my answer would be this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> will  not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Joe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   --
>>>>>>>>   Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Visit my blog:
>>>>>>>>   http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>   nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa
>>>>>>>> ndefur%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>   nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>   nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel
>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>   nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>> n%40visi.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>   nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>   nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>   nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>   nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>   nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>   nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>   nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine
>>>>>>>> t104%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>
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