[nabs-l] NABS List Manners

[Mary Fernandez]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post their thoughts here.
I will be having a call with members of the NABS board and we will
come up with a new protocol that addresses some of these concerns, and
will be viable for both posters and moderators. Currently, I am the
only one who is specifically tasked with moderating the NABS list, and
as this is a very highly trafficked list, I confess I find it
difficult to keep up with every single message as this isn't my only
job. That is no excuse, however, this is something we will definitely
address in the upcoming call, as posters should feel safe, and my
unresponsiveness should not be a reason for things to get out of hand
and frustrate everyone.
In the meantime, if someone sends you an inappropriate message online,
please forward to me immediately, and do not reply on list. I think
that employing common sense from everyone will do us all good, that
is, you do not have to reply to anyone, ever. You can delete messages,
and you should be aware of your privacy. That is, if you have every
single way someone can contact you electronically, you are giving
someone who wants to bother you, more ways of doing so. I will send
out the guidelines out shortly, and think that sending them out once a
month is a grand idea.
Thanks again to everyone, and feel free to email me off line with any
further questions or suggestions.
Mary F


On 8/17/14, Jedi Moerke via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Amen. Not to drag this thread on too much longer, but I think it worth
> notice that the initial issue started with a comment that is definitely, in
> my book, sexual harassment. I'm glad somebody else sees that and feels it
> necessary to bring this particular part of the issue up.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 16, 2014, at 10:19 AM, Karl Martin Adam via nabs-l
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> I really don't think that "just delete what you don't want" is a
>> sufficient response to women being sexually harassed by guys doing things
>> like trying to trade tech help for a bra size.  It is our responsibility
>> as members of this list and the responsibility of the moderators to ensure
>> that this is a safe place where people can post without being harassed.
>> Maybe we can't get rid of this sort of thing completely, but that's no
>> reason to tolerate this when it's brought to our attention.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler via nabs-l" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> To: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>, National Association of
>> Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 00:21:45 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>
>> Hello:
>> I think this thread has gone on way to long. Firstly, the guy asked her
>> bra size off list and she replied on list. Maybe it was not appropriate,
>> but welcome to the internets in 2014. Just delete what you don't want.
>>
>> Second, you're talking about these emails for social networks like it's
>> a huge issue. Maybe there are a few guys out there friending any girl
>> with an email address, but usually what happens is they reply, then they
>> say "here Facebook have my address book" and bam, everyone gets
>> invitations. whether or not the person ment to send them.
>>
>> I don't know that holding confirence calls really is the way to go, just
>> send out rule reminders every month and if there's a problem, just send
>> it off to the admins to deal with as they see fit. Confirence calls,
>> classes, talks, required agreements and the like are just going to be
>> ignored by those who don't care and acknowledged for those who already
>> acknowledge them. Forcing someone to say "I agree" to the rules is just
>> forcing them to go through another step to register and they can still
>> say "hey, I didn't read those rules." This also ends up taking a bit of
>> extra work to embed in mailman, as I don't think it has this option. You
>> do have the option of sending out monthly emails or welcome letters, at
>> which point you could include rules, then failure to follow them can be
>> the same results as not following the rules you have to click a button
>> to agree, whatever that may be.
>>
>> I think this is getting blown out of perportion. There are spats on and
>> off list, but if you really have a problem with someone just block them
>> or hit delete on their messages.
>> On 8/16/2014 12:10 AM, Kaiti Shelton via nabs-l wrote:
>> It would also be great if somehow, we could address the issue of
>> people taking advantage of the fact that other list members can't
>> necessarily be anonymous and hide their emails to avoid unwanted
>> attention off-list.  I know policing such matters is impractical, but
>> it is also kind of weird to have NABS members who I don't know
>> practically stalking me because they want me to follow them back on
>> Twitter, want to be a friend on facebook, want to be a connection or
>> in my circle on Linked In or Google Plus, etc, plus send random emails
>> to my address asking sometimes really odd questions.  I think people
>> would be less likely to jump the gun when inappropriate behavior
>> happens on list and more apt to handle it appropriately if things like
>> this didn't happen, as I know they happen to a fair number of people
>> on the list.  Would it be too much to put a guideline in which says
>> something about how permission should be gained before sending a
>> messages of a personal nature off list, or please don't friend someone
>> on other social media outlets unless there is a mutual desire to be
>> friends?  Or, perhaps in addition to internet etiquette guidelines,
>> there be some basic social guidelines in case some of this behavior is
>> due to a lack of social supports outside of the internet, and the
>> person for whatever reasons needs a bit of guidance in how to properly
>> correspond with others so as not to come off overbearing.
>>
>> The bigger question is, how could this realistically be done without
>> severely limiting intellectual conversation.  Over the last few years
>> I've gotten some very nice emails from people who wanted to respond to
>> something I said privately, to give an honest opinion that they were
>> too shy to put on the list for the very reason that they thought they
>> would meet resistance or disapproval, or people who noticed things
>> like my major and were curious for information.  I wouldn't want to
>> stifle any of these things and have actually made some good friends
>> through some of these conversations which happened thanks to the NABS
>> list, but it is a little weird, annoying, and a bit creepy, when some
>> random guy won't stop sending me reminders to add him on different
>> social media outlets, especially when they're ones I don't check or
>> didn't really care to learn how to use after deciding I really didn't
>> need the account, and they won't get the hint that I'm either not
>> checking my account, am only still receiving their invitations because
>> I haven't figured out how to block them on a site I never use, or am
>> not interested in adding a stranger to see my personal information.  I
>> think that is a huge problem we have with the list, and especially
>> puts a lot of the girls on here into a tricky spot because since this
>> is all electronic, to engage by telling the person to leave you alone
>> gives them what they want.  I used the delete key a lot for dealing
>> with these kinds of messages, but found with some the emails just keep
>> coming even after 2 years of membership on the list.
>>
>> On 8/15/14, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I like Jedi's idea of having a conference call on internet etiquette,
>> but my concern is that only those who abide by the rules already will
>> care to show up.  It could be very effective, but my gut just tells me
>> that it would be like preaching to the choir.  Unfortunately, calling
>> individuals out who have consistently demonstrated some of the
>> negative or disrespectful behaviors we've mentioned on this thread is
>> probably not the way to go either, unless done so by list moderators
>> like Mary and Dave.
>>
>> I still think policing is the best way to go about this, but it would
>> be up to the moderators, and could be a huge undertaking.  I like the
>> idea of having the rules set up on a screen after subscribers complete
>> the initial form, and am a huge fan of using I agree or I don't Agree
>> buttons to finish the subscription process if it is feasible.  I think
>> that would make it much harder for people to just say they were
>> ignorant of the rules because they never cared to look for them.
>> Sure, people will skim through it and not read, but at least we can
>> say that they broke the rules at their own disgression and had an
>> equal opportunity to read them.  Granted, I'm of the opinion that when
>> you join a list it's your responsibility to use common etiquette
>> and/or educate yourself on the rules and therefore we're already all
>> equal here anyway, but obviously not everyone on the list operates
>> that way and that's why we're having this problem to begin with.
>>
>> Arielle gave some great advice about when to just let a thread go and
>> to not respond, and I echo some of Antonio's sentiments about deleting
>> a lot of what doesn't interest you.  Some of the personal promotion
>> stuff is annoying, but not harmful, and while I don't necessarily read
>> what the promos say, I respect what the person making them is doing
>> and their right to do it on a forum such as NABS.  After all, if
>> you're doing something geared toward blind teens and young adults,
>> it's logical to use NABS as a sounding board to gather interested
>> parties.
>>
>> There's a great quote from Thumper, the bunny in Bambi, which I
>> believe goes something like, "If you don't got nothing nice to say,
>> don't say it."  I think most of the list members do well and abide by
>> this, but the people who provide the put-downs, consistently respond
>> negatively to other's comments, and who send inappropriate emails on
>> list (and off by getting member emails and emailing to continue the
>> inappropriate behaviors they start for all to see), are mostly repeat
>> offenders who have left clear patterns of behavior behind in their
>> emails.  I'm not saying we should jump the gun and kick those people
>> off, but we definitely know where to start and who to keep an eye on
>> for these problems based on the past, if only we had a method for
>> doing so.
>>
>> On 8/15/14, Sami Osborne via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I agree with everything that's been said so far.
>>
>> I think that the guidelines should maybe be posted here more
>> often, maybe not once every month but more than maybe once every
>> 6 months.  The reason I'm saying this is because since I've
>> registered to this list, the guidelines have only been posted
>> once.  I think this would be a great way for everybody to be
>> aware of the rules and think about what they've done if they have
>> caused trouble on here.
>> Also, another suggestion is that when people register, after they
>> submit their email address, name and password, why couldn't the
>> guidelines be displayed, with buttons or links for the person
>> would have to click on to agree or disagree? Note: if they
>> accidentally click "disagree," then they could be given a second
>> chance to click "agree," and if for the second time they click on
>> "agree," then their subscription will not be taken.
>>
>> About discussing opinions: I think that these kinds of
>> discussions are fine as long as people are not personally
>> insulting or attacking each other.  In my opinion, if there is a
>> discussion going on where two people have differing opinions and
>> talk about their views, if it gets to the point where it starts
>> to get bad, these people should stop discussing their opinions.
>>
>> These are just my thoughts.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sami.
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Arielle Silverman via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> To: Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com>,National
>> Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:32:02 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>
>> I agree with greater enforcement.  I also think it would be nice
>> if
>> folks didn't respond to inappropriate messages on list.  A single
>> off-topic or obnoxious message often goes unnoticed but a huge
>> thread
>> of replies clutters inboxes and annoys people, plus rewarding
>> someone
>> who might be making an obnoxious post to glean attention.  If a
>> post
>> bothers you, I suggest quietly emailing Mary and Dave Andrews so
>> they
>> can handle the offense and then quietly letting it go.  If you
>> aren't
>> sure whether a message you see is inappropriate, ask the
>> moderators
>> privately.  These are just my suggestions.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 8/14/14, Antonio Guimaraes via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> wrote:
>>  Mary and all,
>>
>>  This is not the first time list etiquette and civility has been
>> brought up.
>>
>>  People would think twice, or otherwise no longer have the
>> opportunity to be
>>  inappropriate on list if there was enforcement of guidelines
>> which suspended
>>  or banned people from list for violations.
>>
>>  I have been threatened once for one spam sent to NFBNet lists,
>> and I never
>>  did it again.  The specifics do not concern the NABS list and
>> are not
>>  relevant to the discussion at this time, but you bet I could
>> have been
>>  banned by moderators, and as stated above, would no longer have
>> the chance
>>  to polite the list in whatever way deemed inappropriate by the
>> moderators.
>>
>>  Some off topic messages to NABS irk me, but are infrequent
>> enough that they
>>  don't bother me.  I don't complain, hit delete ad move on.
>>
>>  One much example are the periodic announcements from David about
>> internet
>>  radio.  It takes me a few seconds to see the topic and decide
>> the
>>  announcement does not interest me.  I delete, and move on with
>> no stress.  I'm
>>  sure David's programs are interesting to some, and I accept a
>> member's
>>  self-promotion as  a part of the supportive NABS community.
>>
>>  I am not as tolerant of messages with personal information about
>> others, or
>>  messages filled with self-disclosure on very personal and
>> sensitive topics.
>>
>>  We would be a better list if we were expected to act civilly,
>> stay on topic,
>>  and so on, and be wormed, and disciplined when we do not.
>>
>>  Antonio
>>
>>  On Aug 10, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Mary Fernandez via nabs-l
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>  wrote:
>>
>>  Good evening all,
>>  I hope everyone's weekend was very enjoyable.
>>  I am writing because I am deeply concerned about the manners, or
>> lack
>>  thereof, which are more and more frequently being displayed on
>> the
>>  list serv.  I'll quickly remind you that the list is supposed to
>> be a
>>  resource for blind students, of all ages, young professionals,
>> parents
>>  and teachers.  The list is "public" and "archivable", which
>> means that
>>  anything we write on here is easily brought up when someone,
>> anyone,
>>  conducts a Google search.
>>  When someone inquires about software, or help with anything,
>> which
>>  relates to blindness, or has a question and asks that you
>> contact them
>>  off line, it does not mean that you can be disrespectful to that
>>  person.  The list is NOT here for insults to be thrown back and
>> forth,
>>  for inappropriate comments, or for general disrespect towards
>> others.
>>  So, here is my question, how can we improve communication among
>> list
>>  members? Does this list still have value, and if so what are the
>>  values and how to we maintain them? Let's have a discussion
>> about
>>  issues and solutions.  I'm probably opening a can of worms, but
>> I'm
>>  truly concerned about the tone of the messages on here, and the
>>  frequency with which they have been occurring.  Please, be
>> polite and
>>  respectful when responding to this message, and if you have
>> strong
>>  feelings you do not wish to make public, simply click on my
>> email
>>  address: trillian551 at gmail.com and reply to me directly.
>>
>>  Thank you,
>>  Sincerely,
>>  Your list moderator,
>>
>>  --
>>  Mary Fernandez
>>  "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
>>  forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made
>> them
>>  feel."
>>  --
>>  Maya Angelou
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Kaiti
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>> that dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>>
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-- 
Mary Fernandez
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them
feel."
--
Maya Angelou