From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 00:37:43 2014 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 18:37:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Scheduling Message-ID: <53112be1.a2e3ec0a.01d1.ffff9937@mx.google.com> Lillie, ironically, I had the same dillemma this year. I'm a junior in high school and in Algebra II, just like you, and my math teacher and the head of our math apartment wanted to take AP precalculus. I am NOT a math person, so I wanted to take a statistics class. The important thing to realize is that ultimately, scheduling is up to you and your parents. If it works the same at your school as it does at mine, the teachers cannot force you to take anything, especially if it's an upper-level class like AP. That said, I do agree with the many people who've said that your prospective career determines what class you should take. But if your career does not require advanced math like calc and trig, go ahead and take the stats class. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington References: <53112be1.a2e3ec0a.01d1.ffff9937@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Lillie and all, I agree with some of what has been said, but here's another spin on it. Of course, I have a slight advantage in knowing what you're looking into for college majors since we personally know each other, so here is what I would suggest. Speaking as someone who is in a very humanistic field, and who is in the psych department a lot and knows a lot of people getting their B.S degrees as well as those in other humanities fields, I would recommend going with the AP Stats course. I wish I had taken it senior year when I had a little more support instead of waiting till college to take stats, and I don't, nor do any of my psychology friends, have to take any other math. Sure, psych majors have to take experimental psychology which has a little math involved, but it's nothing like calc from what I understand. If you know you're going to go into a humanities major, and eventually a career, I wouldn't waste your time with calc or trig. Sophie had a very good point that you'll probably have more support in AP stats than you would have in a college stats class, plus you can get it out of the way and never have to deal with math in the disabilities office which can be a big advantage. However, I would encourage you to fully research the math requirements for your chosen major(s) at the universities you are considering, so that you are aware of them when making your final decision. On 2/28/14, Sophie Trist wrote: > Lillie, ironically, I had the same dillemma this year. I'm a > junior in high school and in Algebra II, just like you, and my > math teacher and the head of our math apartment wanted to take AP > precalculus. I am NOT a math person, so I wanted to take a > statistics class. The important thing to realize is that > ultimately, scheduling is up to you and your parents. If it works > the same at your school as it does at mine, the teachers cannot > force you to take anything, especially if it's an upper-level > class like AP. That said, I do agree with the many people who've > said that your prospective career determines what class you > should take. But if your career does not require advanced math > like calc and trig, go ahead and take the stats class. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Date sent: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:16:25 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] Scheduling > > > > Hi everyone > I am scheduling classes for next year. I am in algebra 2 now. The > powers that be want us to take precalc or trig, which is just > essentially a watered down version of precalc. I have extremely > no desire to take either of these courses, and want to take ap > stats instead. I have the prerequisites for this class. I asked > my math teacher if I could do this and she said technically I > could she did not recomend it. My parents are okay with my > decision. I filled out a form overriding her recomendation and > although she signed it, she told me that there would be trig in > stats and I would need it later in life. I am wondering if anyone > who who has taken stats knows if I am missing anything > catostrophic by not taking trig? Thanks > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From malhajamy at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 15:45:18 2014 From: malhajamy at gmail.com (Mohamed) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:45:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence Message-ID: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? Thanks. From carlymih at comcast.net Sat Mar 1 15:46:05 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 07:46:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] What is independence? In-Reply-To: References: <78E88062-26CE-4FFF-8D80-3E263CC4FD85@gmail.com> <530FB2EA.2080107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140301074349.012a1260@comcast.net> Good morning, Ryan, Well, Does one have to have a quote unquote diagnosed disability in order for all those conditions you laid out to apply? Some contend that, everybody has a disability! for today, Car 408-209-3239 /2014, Ryan Silveira wrote: >Hi all, > >I agree with what has been said thus far; the word "independence" >has several connotative meanings. For me, I believe that an >independent person has the ability to function without being fully >reliant on others to manage their lives. Independence does not, >however, necessarily mean that one must never rely on others for >assistance. Whether one is blind, hearing impaired, in a wheel >chair, developmentally challenged or without any diagnosed >disability, one still needs to ask for assistance from time to >time. If a person can think for themselves, take care of >themselves, make trivial and important decisions by and for >themselves and manage life in general (whether that be home life, >school, a career or all of the above) and do it mostly on their own, >they are independent. They should also, however, know when to ask >for help. No one should have to go through life alone. Every >person needs help in some way. The greatest sign of independence is >the ability to manage life on one's own, while also knowing where >the limit is and when to ask for help. > > >Ryan L. Silveira > > >On Feb 27, 2014, at 4:49 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > > > Hi, > > This is a very good topic for discussion. > > > > For me, true independence is living your life without feeling > burdened by the things that you can't do. It is knowing that you > have the skills necessary to achieve whatever your goals and > aspirations in life are. > > More importantly, it means knowing your limits. It means being > able to explore the depths of your soul freely and without guilt. > This is necessary because people who scream the loudest about their > independence are often the ones who spend the most time consciously > emulating someone else's values and beliefs. If one can think for > themselves, and be inspired by, rather than shamed into, knowing > how they feel about themselves, their place in the world, their > morals, etc., that, to me, is the key ingredient to being truly independent. > > > > On 2/26/2014 5:08 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> It seems to me that a word that we use a lot in the > Federation is independence. > >> Obviously, we go about it differently which would > suggest differing definitions for each individual. As you read > this message, I wonder what the word independence means to you? > >> Best, > >> Darian > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > >> . > >> > > > > -- > > Desiree > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! > Antivirus protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 1 16:26:41 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 11:26:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <075EE2D1ED73405CA175D1346ABFA45E@OwnerPC> Hi Mohammed, Sometimes if it’s a stranger and I don't feel like have an education conversation, I accept the help. Saying no can hurt their feelings or force you to explain stuff you don't have time for. in this case, I might accept the help as long as he was not condescending; while cabbys have not offered to do everything for me, they have in fact offered me more help than other passengers which I find nice. it actually makes it faster for them to carry my bag to the door and put it in the seat; they also walk me to the door or give me directions to it and I find this helpful. a sighted person can see this. So it really depends on the situation. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 10:45 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 16:48:12 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 09:48:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <075EE2D1ED73405CA175D1346ABFA45E@OwnerPC> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <075EE2D1ED73405CA175D1346ABFA45E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I think it depends on how the help makes you feel and whether or not it's actually helpful. For example, I once had a pedicurist insist on putting my shoes on for me, but she didn't really understand how the ties worked on that particular pair of shoes, and as a result, it was actually slower for her to do it than for me to do it. I also don't usually like other people handling my stuff because I can't see where they're putting it, and it actually inconveniences me more to try to figure out where my stuff is. So it depends on what you find helpful in the particular situation. If the way someone is "helping" you is actually making things more difficult or if it makes you feel embarrassed or uncomfortable, then of course it's OK to say no. If the help is actually helpful and doesn't make you feel uncomfortable, then it may make sense to accept it. Independence doesn't mean declining help just to prove to others that you are independent, but I think it does mean being in control of how you are being treated and turning down interactions that make you uncomfortable. Arielle On 3/1/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Mohammed, > Sometimes if it's a stranger and I don't feel like have an education > conversation, I accept the help. > Saying no can hurt their feelings or force you to explain stuff you don't > have time for. in this case, I might accept the help as long as he was not > condescending; while cabbys have not offered to do everything for me, they > have in fact offered me more help than other passengers which I find nice. > it actually makes it faster for them to carry my bag to the door and put it > in the seat; they also walk me to the door or give me directions to it and I > find this helpful. a sighted person can see this. So it really depends on > the situation. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mohamed > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 10:45 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence > > Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone > brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of > something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by > taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help > me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening > the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is > what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when > should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted > help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? > Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From malhajamy at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 16:51:47 2014 From: malhajamy at gmail.com (Mohamed) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 11:51:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence Message-ID: <53121026.425d8c0a.6642.4d53@mx.google.com> I said no, because I wanted to do it on my own. It was because I was thinking he might put them somewhere where I wasn't use to it. That's the thing. I'm just not sure when to accept help, and when not to accept it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman wrote: Hi Mohammed, Sometimes if it's a stranger and I don't feel like have an education conversation, I accept the help. Saying no can hurt their feelings or force you to explain stuff you don't have time for. in this case, I might accept the help as long as he was not condescending; while cabbys have not offered to do everything for me, they have in fact offered me more help than other passengers which I find nice. it actually makes it faster for them to carry my bag to the door and put it in the seat; they also walk me to the door or give me directions to it and I find this helpful. a sighted person can see this. So it really depends on the situation. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 10:45 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g mail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 17:15:36 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:15:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Scheduling In-Reply-To: References: <53112be1.a2e3ec0a.01d1.ffff9937@mx.google.com> Message-ID: If your major is going to require calc or higher, and you take AP calc and pass the AP exam, you can completely get out of college math. That's what I did and I'm glad I took calc as a high school senior with a Braille text instead of waiting until college where Braille might have been a rare luxury. On the other hand, if you know for sure that your major won't require calc, you can do stats instead. I thought that a B.S. in psychology requires a semester of calc, but perhaps I am wrong about that? I personally think stats is much easier than calculus, for whatever that's worth. So if you have to take both and can only take one in high school, I'd probably suggest taking calc while you have the support and Braille access, which won't be critical for stats. Just my thoughts. Arielle On 2/28/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Lillie and all, > > I agree with some of what has been said, but here's another spin on > it. Of course, I have a slight advantage in knowing what you're > looking into for college majors since we personally know each other, > so here is what I would suggest. > > Speaking as someone who is in a very humanistic field, and who is in > the psych department a lot and knows a lot of people getting their B.S > degrees as well as those in other humanities fields, I would recommend > going with the AP Stats course. I wish I had taken it senior year > when I had a little more support instead of waiting till college to > take stats, and I don't, nor do any of my psychology friends, have to > take any other math. Sure, psych majors have to take experimental > psychology which has a little math involved, but it's nothing like > calc from what I understand. If you know you're going to go into a > humanities major, and eventually a career, I wouldn't waste your time > with calc or trig. Sophie had a very good point that you'll probably > have more support in AP stats than you would have in a college stats > class, plus you can get it out of the way and never have to deal with > math in the disabilities office which can be a big advantage. > > However, I would encourage you to fully research the math requirements > for your chosen major(s) at the universities you are considering, so > that you are aware of them when making your final decision. > > On 2/28/14, Sophie Trist wrote: >> Lillie, ironically, I had the same dillemma this year. I'm a >> junior in high school and in Algebra II, just like you, and my >> math teacher and the head of our math apartment wanted to take AP >> precalculus. I am NOT a math person, so I wanted to take a >> statistics class. The important thing to realize is that >> ultimately, scheduling is up to you and your parents. If it works >> the same at your school as it does at mine, the teachers cannot >> force you to take anything, especially if it's an upper-level >> class like AP. That said, I do agree with the many people who've >> said that your prospective career determines what class you >> should take. But if your career does not require advanced math >> like calc and trig, go ahead and take the stats class. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Lillie Pennington > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > Date sent: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:16:25 -0500 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Scheduling >> >> >> >> Hi everyone >> I am scheduling classes for next year. I am in algebra 2 now. The >> powers that be want us to take precalc or trig, which is just >> essentially a watered down version of precalc. I have extremely >> no desire to take either of these courses, and want to take ap >> stats instead. I have the prerequisites for this class. I asked >> my math teacher if I could do this and she said technically I >> could she did not recomend it. My parents are okay with my >> decision. I filled out a form overriding her recomendation and >> although she signed it, she told me that there would be trig in >> stats and I would need it later in life. I am wondering if anyone >> who who has taken stats knows if I am missing anything >> catostrophic by not taking trig? Thanks >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >> r%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 18:32:21 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (Minhh Ha) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 13:32:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scheduling In-Reply-To: References: <53112be1.a2e3ec0a.01d1.ffff9937@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <19ACDC03-067E-490A-8699-2DC70190A8FC@gmail.com> I definitely agree with Arielle that stats is a lot easier than calculus. I took Ap calc in high school and it was one of the hardest classes I ever took and I was really glad that I had the braille and all the support I needed. I'm taking stats in college right now and it's more manageable without braille. Also, you need to consider that universities have core require.e ts and while many of them accept AP credit for waving the college math requirement for calc, they won't do the same for AP stats, especially the more prestigious universities. This happened to a lot of my friends who opted to take AP stats in hs instead of AP calc. Minh Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 1, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > If your major is going to require calc or higher, and you take AP calc > and pass the AP exam, you can completely get out of college math. > That's what I did and I'm glad I took calc as a high school senior > with a Braille text instead of waiting until college where Braille > might have been a rare luxury. On the other hand, if you know for sure > that your major won't require calc, you can do stats instead. I > thought that a B.S. in psychology requires a semester of calc, but > perhaps I am wrong about that? I personally think stats is much easier > than calculus, for whatever that's worth. So if you have to take both > and can only take one in high school, I'd probably suggest taking calc > while you have the support and Braille access, which won't be critical > for stats. Just my thoughts. > Arielle > >> On 2/28/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi Lillie and all, >> >> I agree with some of what has been said, but here's another spin on >> it. Of course, I have a slight advantage in knowing what you're >> looking into for college majors since we personally know each other, >> so here is what I would suggest. >> >> Speaking as someone who is in a very humanistic field, and who is in >> the psych department a lot and knows a lot of people getting their B.S >> degrees as well as those in other humanities fields, I would recommend >> going with the AP Stats course. I wish I had taken it senior year >> when I had a little more support instead of waiting till college to >> take stats, and I don't, nor do any of my psychology friends, have to >> take any other math. Sure, psych majors have to take experimental >> psychology which has a little math involved, but it's nothing like >> calc from what I understand. If you know you're going to go into a >> humanities major, and eventually a career, I wouldn't waste your time >> with calc or trig. Sophie had a very good point that you'll probably >> have more support in AP stats than you would have in a college stats >> class, plus you can get it out of the way and never have to deal with >> math in the disabilities office which can be a big advantage. >> >> However, I would encourage you to fully research the math requirements >> for your chosen major(s) at the universities you are considering, so >> that you are aware of them when making your final decision. >> >>> On 2/28/14, Sophie Trist wrote: >>> Lillie, ironically, I had the same dillemma this year. I'm a >>> junior in high school and in Algebra II, just like you, and my >>> math teacher and the head of our math apartment wanted to take AP >>> precalculus. I am NOT a math person, so I wanted to take a >>> statistics class. The important thing to realize is that >>> ultimately, scheduling is up to you and your parents. If it works >>> the same at your school as it does at mine, the teachers cannot >>> force you to take anything, especially if it's an upper-level >>> class like AP. That said, I do agree with the many people who've >>> said that your prospective career determines what class you >>> should take. But if your career does not require advanced math >>> like calc and trig, go ahead and take the stats class. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Lillie Pennington >> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> Date sent: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:16:25 -0500 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Scheduling >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi everyone >>> I am scheduling classes for next year. I am in algebra 2 now. The >>> powers that be want us to take precalc or trig, which is just >>> essentially a watered down version of precalc. I have extremely >>> no desire to take either of these courses, and want to take ap >>> stats instead. I have the prerequisites for this class. I asked >>> my math teacher if I could do this and she said technically I >>> could she did not recomend it. My parents are okay with my >>> decision. I filled out a form overriding her recomendation and >>> although she signed it, she told me that there would be trig in >>> stats and I would need it later in life. I am wondering if anyone >>> who who has taken stats knows if I am missing anything >>> catostrophic by not taking trig? Thanks >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade >>> r%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 19:15:26 2014 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 12:15:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> Message-ID: If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: > > Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? > Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 22:41:25 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 17:41:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Mohammed, I believe this is not a question we can answer for you. We don't know your situation and your level of comfortability with the tasks associated with travel in the cab and from the cab to the school. If you are comfortable with doing these things on your own, I see no problem with your polite refusal of help from the driver. This is something which we as blind people must do from time to time. If you are in a situation in which you would prefer assistance when it is available to you, I think there is no shame in accepting or even asking for it. It's your choice. What we say or do in this matter makes little difference—we're not you. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 1, 2014, at 10:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: > > Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? > Thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 01:48:03 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 20:48:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <075EE2D1ED73405CA175D1346ABFA45E@OwnerPC> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <075EE2D1ED73405CA175D1346ABFA45E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <006a01cf35b9$73ef7ad0$5bce7070$@gmail.com> I just say a firm no thank you, appreciate it though if I don't want any help. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 11:27 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence Hi Mohammed, Sometimes if it’s a stranger and I don't feel like have an education conversation, I accept the help. Saying no can hurt their feelings or force you to explain stuff you don't have time for. in this case, I might accept the help as long as he was not condescending; while cabbys have not offered to do everything for me, they have in fact offered me more help than other passengers which I find nice. it actually makes it faster for them to carry my bag to the door and put it in the seat; they also walk me to the door or give me directions to it and I find this helpful. a sighted person can see this. So it really depends on the situation. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 10:45 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? Thanks. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 05:36:22 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 00:36:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language Message-ID: <3707AE489A0D42F78A74D0070361711A@Helga> Hi guys, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I’m going to be taking a CLEP exam this summer around June. The reason I’m going to be taking this exam is because in order for me not to take Spanish classes, since I already Speak Spanish, and I already took it when I was in high school. If I take this exam, and if I pass it I will get 8 credits with it, rather than just taking a Spanish class where I would only receive 3 credits. Actually, my mom will help me review and practice my Spanish punctuation skills, and writing skills in order to get ready for this test! I just wanted to ask you, how can I change JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language in order for me to practice my Spanish writing punctuations and skills? And also could you tell me how can I do the accents symbols and all other types of symbols when I’m writing words and phrases in Spanish by using JAWS on the computer? And also, do yu know if it is possible to write in Spanish in the BrailleNote Apex? Just curious! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! P.S. Sorry, sorry, for asking you all these questions! Thanks again! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1135 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt.dierckens at me.com Sun Mar 2 13:33:48 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 08:33:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language In-Reply-To: <3707AE489A0D42F78A74D0070361711A@Helga> References: <3707AE489A0D42F78A74D0070361711A@Helga> Message-ID: <919F2DC3-1D59-46DA-AD70-F5A49E09FA7D@me.com> Hello Helga. I can assist you with the voice over question. would you prefer mp3 or text help? thanks. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Mar 2, 2014, at 12:36 AM, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi guys, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I’m going to be taking a CLEP exam this summer around June. The reason I’m going to be taking this exam is because in order for me not to take Spanish classes, since I already Speak Spanish, and I already took it when I was in high school. If I take this exam, and if I pass it I will get 8 credits with it, rather than just taking a Spanish class where I would only receive 3 credits. Actually, my mom will help me review and practice my Spanish punctuation skills, and writing skills in order to get ready for this test! I just wanted to ask you, how can I change JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language in order for me to practice my Spanish writing punctuations and skills? And also could you tell me how can I do the accents symbols and all other types of symbols when I’m writing words and phrases in Spanish by using JAWS on the computer? And also, do yu know if it is possible to write in Spanish in the BrailleNote Apex? Just curious! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! > P.S. Sorry, sorry, for asking you all these questions! Thanks again! _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From ligne14 at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 14:18:57 2014 From: ligne14 at verizon.net (sami osborne) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 09:18:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language Message-ID: <0N1T005B6BRRHPH0@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> Hi=20Helga. For=20yh=20first=20question=20about=20Jaws,=20to=20change=20languages,=20op= en=20the=20 Jaws=20window,=20press=20altogether=20to=20get=20to=20the=20menu=20bar,=20p= ress=20down=20 arrow=20until=20you=20get=20to=20the=20voices=20submenu,=20press=20enter=20= on=20this.=20=20 The=20first=20option=20in=20this=20sub-menu=20will=20be=20voice=20adjustmen= t,=20press=20 enter=20on=20that.=20=20Then=20press=20Tab=203=20times=20until=20you=20get= =20to=20 synthesiser=20language,=20then=20press=20the=20Down=20Arrow=20until=20you=20= get=20to=20 Spanish=20and=20press=20Enter,=20and=20now=20your=20Jaws=20is=20in=20Spanis= h!=20Note:=20 there=20are=20actually=202=20choices=20for=20Spanish:=20Castilian=20Spanish= =20(from=20 Spain)=20and=20Latin=20American=20SpaanishddAl,=20I=20prher=20using=20this= =20method=20 rather=20than=20the=20Jaws=20Language=20Menu=20because=20it=20has=20been=20= with=20my=20 experience=20that=20Jaws=20would=20say=20that=20changing=20the=20language=20= is=20 unavailable=20in=20that=20menu. Now=20to=20write=20accented=20letters=20in=20Spanish,=20when=20you're=20in= =20a=20word=20 document=20or=20anywhere=20else=20where=20you=20can=20write,=20press=20ctrl= =20 apostrophe,=20and=20you=20have=20your=20accented=20symbol=20inserted,=20the= n=20all=20 you=20have=20to=20do=20is=20press=20A,=20E,=20I,=20O,=20or=20U=20(the=20let= ters=20in=20which=20 there=20are=20accets=20in=20Spanish). Now=20to=20answer=20yh=20other=20question,=20yeseax=20is=20possible=20to=20= do=20Spanish=20 on=20the=20BrailleNote=20Apex=20(I=20use=20mine=20all=20the=20time=20to=20t= ranslate=20 documents=20for=20my=20school=20into=20Spanish). I=20hope=20that=20I=20have=20helped=20you, Sami. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Matthew=20Dierckens=20________ _______________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.diercken s%40me.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver izon.net From ligne14 at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 15:02:17 2014 From: ligne14 at verizon.net (sami osborne) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 10:02:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language Message-ID: <0N1T00KWCDS0M380@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> Edit: sorry, I meant to preess the A, L, T key to get to the menu bar. I just accidentally wrote altogether because I'm using grade 2 braille on my Apex to write this. ----- Original Message ----- From: sami osborne ________ _______________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.diercken s%40me.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver izon.net From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 15:36:37 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 10:36:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language In-Reply-To: <0N1T00KWCDS0M380@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0N1T00KWCDS0M380@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <46EF5A13-BD5B-48F1-9D68-6E21C3706CFF@gmail.com> Hi Sami, this is Helga. I just wanted to ask you, when I change JAWS to Spanish language, can I switch back and forth between Spanish and English language? I'm just wondering. And how can I do accents signs and punctuations symbols in the BrailleNote? Meaning how can I do questions marks, periods, exclamations marks, and many other types of symbols! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 2, 2014, at 10:02 AM, sami osborne wrote: > > Edit: sorry, I meant to preess the A, L, T key to get to the menu bar. > I just accidentally wrote altogether because I'm using grade 2 braille on my Apex to write this. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sami osborne To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 09:18:57 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language > > Hi Helga. > > For yh first question about Jaws, to change languages, open the > Jaws window, press altogether to get to the menu bar, press down > arrow until you get to the voices submenu, press enter on this. > The first option in this sub-menu will be voice adjustment, press > enter on that. Then press Tab 3 times until you get to > synthesiser language, then press the Down Arrow until you get to > Spanish and press Enter, and now your Jaws is in Spanish! Note: > there are actually 2 choices for Spanish: Castilian Spanish (from > Spain) and Latin American SpaanishddAl, I prher using this method > rather than the Jaws Language Menu because it has been with my > experience that Jaws would say that changing the language is > unavailable in that menu. > Now to write accented letters in Spanish, when you're in a word > document or anywhere else where you can write, press ctrl > apostrophe, and you have your accented symbol inserted, then all > you have to do is press A, E, I, O, or U (the letters in which > there are accets in Spanish). > Now to answer yh other question, yeseax is possible to do Spanish > on the BrailleNote Apex (I use mine all the time to translate > documents for my school into Spanish). > > I hope that I have helped you, > > Sami. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Matthew Dierckens To: National Association Of Blind Students Mailing List > Date sent: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 08:33:48 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish > Language > > Hello Helga. > I can assist you with the voice over question. would you prefer > mp3 or text help? thanks. > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > On Mar 2, 2014, at 12:36 AM, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > > Hi guys, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell > you that I? going to be taking a CLEP exam this summer around > June. The reason I? going to be taking this exam is because in > order for me not to take Spanish classes, since I already Speak > Spanish, and I already took it when I was in high school. If I > take this exam, and if I pass it I will get 8 credits with it, > rather than just taking a Spanish class where I would only > receive 3 credits. Actually, my mom will help me review and > practice my Spanish punctuation skills, and writing skills in > order to get ready for this test! I just wanted to ask you, how > can I change JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language in order for > me to practice my Spanish writing punctuations and skills? And > also could you tell me how can I do the accents symbols and all > other types of symbols when I? writing words and phrases in > Spanish by using JAWS on the computer? And also, do yu know if it > is possible to write in Spanish in the BrailleNote Apex? Just > curious! I will really appreciate it, if you could help me and > give me some suggestions regarding this. Hope to hear from you > soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! > P.S. Sorry, sorry, for asking you all these questions! Thanks > again! > ________ > _______________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.diercken > s%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver > izon.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From ligne14 at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 20:05:23 2014 From: ligne14 at verizon.net (sami osborne) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 15:05:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language Message-ID: <0N1T00KF4RT6YI80@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> Yes, of course you can, the language change is not permanent, so you can change back and forth between languages as long as you want without any problems. Now to write Spanish symbols on the BrailleNote, you first have to set it up so you can write those. I'm not sure if you're familiar with a BrailleNote, but even if you aren't, I'm just posting here how for anybody else who'd like to know. So, first thing you have to do is enable languages. From anywhere on your BrailleNote, go to the Utilities Menu by pressing Backspace with Enter with U. Once you're in this menu, press Space until you get to language Options, or just press the letter L. Press Space to move through the items in this menu, and when you get to enable Spanish, the default I think is no so press Y for Yes If you want, you can also enable French, German and Italian. Note: don't change the option for KeySoft default language, because at it the moment it is currently only in English. Once this is done, you'll need to enable the accents and symbolsfor Spanish so that the BrailleNote can recognize what they are. Go to the Options menu and press B for Braille options. Press Space until you get to Computer Braille Table. By default it is set to US Computer Braille, press space with Dots 3 and 4 to cycle through the options available until you get to Spanish Computer Braille. Then, stay in Braille Options, press Space, and choose display Computer Braille using. It 's set to 6-dot 0default, y h 6âange x to 8-dot if y want 6write 9 Spaniî. All"r, s nö yr BrlNote is set up, ç y c write 9 Spaniî. "O important ôò 6note 2f I tell y hö 6write è symbols: aside f è /çäd 6-dot Brl t y use, y w al use dots 7 (é capital lrs, ça dot 8 û5 writò Spaniî. S nö, f/ à all, 6write a capital lr, y use dots 7 z I j sd, t's Backspace, ç dot 8 is usë 6skip a l9e ç 6write a35të lrs, t w obviüsly ; è 5Tï key. Nö, 6write a35të lrs. 6Write an A ù an a35t, Press dot 8 (è 5Tï key) ç an à symbol, t is 6say, dots 1 2 3 5 6 From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 20:42:06 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:42:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language In-Reply-To: <0N1T00KF4RT6YI80@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0N1T00KF4RT6YI80@vms173025.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Hi Sami, this is Helga! I just wanted to ask you, could you tell me again the steps in how to enable the accents symbols in the BrailleNote? For some reason the steps didn't come through very well. I will really appreciate it a lot! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! -----Original Message----- From: sami osborne Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2014 3:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Changing JAWS and VoiceOver to Spanish Language Yes, of course you can, the language change is not permanent, so you can change back and forth between languages as long as you want without any problems. Now to write Spanish symbols on the BrailleNote, you first have to set it up so you can write those. I'm not sure if you're familiar with a BrailleNote, but even if you aren't, I'm just posting here how for anybody else who'd like to know. So, first thing you have to do is enable languages. From anywhere on your BrailleNote, go to the Utilities Menu by pressing Backspace with Enter with U. Once you're in this menu, press Space until you get to language Options, or just press the letter L. Press Space to move through the items in this menu, and when you get to enable Spanish, the default I think is no so press Y for Yes If you want, you can also enable French, German and Italian. Note: don't change the option for KeySoft default language, because at it the moment it is currently only in English. Once this is done, you'll need to enable the accents and symbolsfor Spanish so that the BrailleNote can recognize what they are. Go to the Options menu and press B for Braille options. Press Space until you get to Computer Braille Table. By default it is set to US Computer Braille, press space with Dots 3 and 4 to cycle through the options available until you get to Spanish Computer Braille. Then, stay in Braille Options, press Space, and choose display Computer Braille using. It 's set to 6-dot 0default, y h 6âange x to 8-dot if y want 6write 9 Spaniî. All"r, s nö yr BrlNote is set up, ç y c write 9 Spaniî. "O important ôò 6note 2f I tell y hö 6write è symbols: aside f è /çäd 6-dot Brl t y use, y w al use dots 7 (é capital lrs, ça dot 8 û5 writò Spaniî. S nö, f/ à all, 6write a capital lr, y use dots 7 z I j sd, t's Backspace, ç dot 8 is usë 6skip a l9e ç 6write a35të lrs, t w obviüsly ; è 5Tï key. Nö, 6write a35të lrs. 6Write an A ù an a35t, Press dot 8 (è 5Tï key) ç an à symbol, t is 6say, dots 1 2 3 5 6 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 22:59:53 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 14:59:53 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?Reminder=3A_Workshop=3A_Create_an_Adver?= =?windows-1252?q?tising_Directory_=96_NABS_Membership_Committee?= In-Reply-To: <4AFB038C-2DA2-4485-B082-036585663E24@gmail.com> References: <515FD477-D993-415D-8524-B75B3AEF1B42@gmail.com> <4AFB038C-2DA2-4485-B082-036585663E24@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D3066FE-031E-4F80-A840-F0EB6C9D828C@gmail.com> >> >>> The Following Comes from NABS board member Justin Salisbury regarding an opportunity that student division leaders looking to build their membership will not want to miss out on. >> >> >>> Colleagues: >>> >>> >>> >>> So, we have an idea. We’re putting on a student seminar, a student division social, or a fun activity at the state convention. We know how to run it, who will speak, what kind of food we want, but now…how do we get people to attend? Who do we invite? How do we spread the word? >>> >>> >>> >>> We once struggled with these questions in the North Carolina Association of Blind Students, and we devised a solution: create an advertising directory for our state. With four people working on the project for only about two months, we realized that it was, in fact, possible. >>> >>> >>> >>> The system is simple. A division can create a directory of disability contacts at all universities, community colleges, and trade schools in its state. As soon as we had organized this directory, advertising our events became much simpler. We did it all in Microsoft Excel, too. >>> >>> >>> >>> The NABS Membership Committee has been hosting a series of conference call workshops, which I have been leading, where we will explain and discuss how to organize and best use an advertising directory for student division events in your state. >>> >>> >>> >>> The last two of these conference call workshops will be held: >>> >>> >>> >>> Sunday, March 2 >>> >>> 8:00 PM eastern >>> >>> >>> >>> Tuesday, March 4 >>> >>> 9:00 PM eastern >>> >>> >>> >>> For each of these calls, use the following conference line: >>> >>> Dial (605) 475-6700 >>> >>> Enter access code 7869673 >>> >>> >>> >>> I look forward to talking with many on the calls. Each call is stand-alone, but people are welcome to come again if interested. If you have any questions, please email me directly at . >>> >>> >>> >>> Yours, >>> >>> >>> >>> Justin Salisbury >>> >>> President >>> >>> Connecticut Association of Blind Students >>> >> >> Darian Smith >> 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students >> (415) 215-9809 >> dsmithnfb at gmail.com. >> twitter: @goldengateace >> >> www.nabslink.org >> Follow the National Association of Blind Students on twitter: @nabslink. >> “ A good Head and a good heart are always a formidable combination” >> - Nelson Mandela. >>> >>> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further >>> Donate your car to the National Federation of the Blind today! >>> For more information, please visit: www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 >> > From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 23:11:56 2014 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 15:11:56 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster In-Reply-To: <0N1K00BPZRXBZH20@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0N1K00BPZRXBZH20@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5313BABC.9070804@gmail.com> Hello, I find there is no comparison between when one reads Braille or print and when one listens to audio. I rarely spend time "reading" But I finish between 5-10 books a week on average with a very good retention rate using one of my audio book readers. This means that I spend more time downloading books from different places than I do "reading" When I listen to books I'm doing other things like cleaning, walking to school, eating, cooking or doing anything that only requires a small percentage of brain power. It is true one needs to be able to hear what is going on around them, but I have found that I can hear just fine with a TTS talking through my headphones than I can when listening to music or a badly recorded audio book. For that reason I stay away from Bard, Learning Allie and audible. I sometimes feel rather lonely when my friends are given a book by another friend and I finish it in one day, then the next time I see that friend I have finished all the books the author has written while neither friend has even finished the second book. Constantly I ask my parents to use their IPhones with VO to read text, Kindle or blio books but no one has taken me up on my offer. I find it really sad and I wish there was some way to make using TTS voices more attractive. I will be the first to say that some people have a hard time remembering audio they heard. I am a completely visual learner, so it took me a very long time before I could increase my reading speed enough to where I could remember nearly everything. But compared to a sighted person I should be at an 8th grade reading level. I started listening to TTS books as a freshman in high school when I got the first bookport. Before that I had read the Hobbet on the Voice note in 6th grade and nothing else. I remember the hobbit taking me a good month where as it takes me maybe 3 days at most now. But a Freshman in college is what, 14 and I am now 22. So 8 years to go from 40 words a minute or level 3ish on the voice note to around 16. I am not the only one either, there are many people who read with their Apex maxed with full comprehension. Granted reading in Braille and print has its place, but not for reading books. If you like reading books in Braille, have fun doing it, I read books in Braille to increase my reading speed too. But I think what this topic needs is a psychologist *coff* to be doing a study, giving the results of print reading on paper, Braille reading on paper, Print reading on an E-reader, Braille reading on a note-taker, audio reading using audio books and audio reading using TTS books. This is a very hot topic in the Blindness community and the sighted community doesn't even know this is an issue. But if a study was published and sent to different publishers and newspapers, I think it would bring this topic more into the public eye and that would generate more interest in developing avenues for the general public to explore the different reading options. I feel that not being able to use a TTS for reading is a major crippling disability, but of coarse most people don't view it that way, so it must not be. Just like I don't think blindness is a disability, but most people think it is, so it must be. I guess we are dealing then with the same problem facing young retinal blind kids today. Will they take the cure or not? Will they choose to see or remain blind? For a sighted person the answer is obvious. The same goes for us TTS readers. Will sighted people learn to use a TTS and increase their knowledge exponentially or remain unable to read half as many books as they would like to. For me, the answer is obvious. I wish sighted people or non-tts users to understand this. So the first step in my opinion is to make sighted people aware of their disability, then they can choose the cure or not based off an educated guess. As a person who will need to make the choice weather to take sight or noght, the response will be very revealing. For those who don't think not being able to read very fast is not a disability equal to being blind, consider: walking vs driving a car reading captions vs seeing a picture looking at print music vs hearing music everyone I have ever met agrees that the second option is always the more used choice. The first choice has its uses, but not always. As someone who reads using a TTS, I am able to converse on a great many subjects knowledgeably and I will be the first to agree that I know very little. But when I talk to "professionals" in that field, I am often surprised their academic knowledge is miles below mine when I only read maybe 200-250 books on the subject, a half year's fancy. They are of coarse much better in their field at practical use, but our whole educational system is completely based off the Prussian system which glorifies and totally utilizes book learning. There are problems one starts to face when they only read books and don't really have practical knowledge to back up their learning and when there are so many books one has read, but that is another topic. Sorry on my little essay, but I really feel that a firm study needs to be used to quantify results on each reading style. Thank you, Brandon Keith Biggs On 2/25/2014 3:28 PM, semi osborne wrote: > Hi all. > > I use a BrailleNote Apex for schoolwork and emails. > I know that you guys might think that audio is faster than Braille, > but I turn off the speech on my BrailleNote so as not to disturb the > other kids in my class. > However, I also use a Victor Reader Stream to listen to books, and its > audio qualy, to me, is very good. > I also use a computer with Jaws installed for surfing the web and for > playing games. > I'm not sure what my average braille reading speed is, but now that > you mentioned it, I'll probably test that and see, although I do know > that I'm a fast Braille reader... > > Sami. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mohamed To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 15:18:35 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > > Hi Helga, me, personally, I like audio more. Braille, for me, > is rather slow. I have my BrailleNote sped up to the maximum > speed, rate 16. I just simply like audio more than braille. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:36:07 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > > Hi all, this is Helga! I actually use both JAWS and Braille! But > I actually > like braille more than just listening to audio, since I > comprehend more the > college material in Braille! But if I have the Braille copy in my > hand, and > I have the text of it on the computer I learn the material > faster! For > instance, for my Government class I need to learn 19 steps in how > a Bill > becomes a Law. So in that case I use JAWS and the braille copy > of the steps. > Thanks so much for listening to me! God bless! > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:16 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > > Screen reader; I have my jaws up to more than sixty usually. I > may slow it > down to 55 or so when I am reading; I hae pretty good > comprehention because > I read before class. Also, I use learning ally; I speed it up as > much as I > can. Reading your emails I have my jaws on 65 or so. If I am > really > searching for something on the internet, I may speed it up to 70 > or even 80 > for greater speed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Jamie > Principato > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 8:02 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > > How many hours a night must you spend reading in order to keep up > with and > be successful in your classes? Are you using Braille or a screen > reader? I'd > love to hear everyone weigh in on this. If you don't read for > class every > night, how many hours a week? > > Jamie > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 24, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: > > I find it easier to skim in Braille than in audio or E-text. > You can > skim in Braille by looking for indented text, sliding your > fingers > down the leftmost edge of the page looking for spaces where the > text > is indented or centered to indicate a new paragraph or section > heading, or of course, flip to the next physical page. > Also, I'm not sure speed is the end goal, at least not all the > time. > I think a better goal is to achieve a good speed-to-accuracy > ratio. > That is, you want to understand as much as possible in as > little time > as possible. Anyone can put their screen reader on 500 words a > minute > and just breeze through, but if you comprehended less than half > what > was spoken, that's not useful at all. Similarly, carefully > reading in > Braille at 100 words per minute but understanding everything you > read, > and remembering it later so you don't have to re-read right > before the > test, is valuable. > I'm one of those Braille readers who reads very quickly, and > I've > often found, especially as an adult reading denser material and > having > less practice with Braille, that I have to force myself to slow > down > or I start missing stuff. > > Arielle > > On 2/24/14, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > Good afternoon, Sophie, > > Growing up,I admit, I took braille very much for > granted, > couldn't fathom those blinks I heard about who, didn't read > braille. > Served the Federation's summer program as the braille > instructor, was > a devotee of this page slate I have. Was beginning to learn > Grade 3, > the whole bit. I forgot, in studying Japanese language, I, with > the > help of a key my Dad found for me On-line, began teaching myself > nihongo tenji (Japanese braille) Then, at age 19, I was hit by a > car > which caused severe brain damage, a symptom of which has been > acute > tactile appraxia which for me, refers to an inability of hand to > perceive that which is sent to it via the brain. thus reducing > braille reading pretty much to a very rich and stimulating pipe > dream. And, It isn't about the spacing of the dots, like you > see with > neuropathy people, as if anything was produced in jumbo braille, > anyway. I just don't perceive what my finger feels! > But, I say aoll this to make the point of my also not retaining, > during the time i did use hard copy braille as well as a Braille > Light 40 purchased by the school district and, having no > alternative, > I have forced myself to learn audotorally on the comput as well > as > talking books.... so, it can be possible in case, got help you, > you > find yourself in this way. > for today, Car > 408-209-3239 > > Courtney, I have to disagree with you on braille textbooks. I > actually find them more useful than audio textbooks. Granted, > I'm in > high school, so I'm probably not moving at as fast a pace as > college > students, but still. If you read a braille book in an electric > format > with a notetaker (I use a braillenote apex), you can use the > Find > command to search for important keywords if you're trying to > look up > something quickly. You can also move by paragraph and by page > if you > wish to skip irrelevant material. For me at least, I comprehend > more > when I read braille. I do okay with audio, but when I read it > with my > fingers, I tend to absorb more of the information, whereas when > I'm > listening to it, I occasionally zone out and miss something. > This is > more important for some classes than others, but reading braille > tells us how to spell things. Braille also allows us to see > what's > underlined or italicized, which may be important for some > lessons. > These are just my thoughts. Have a great day! > > Sincerely, > Sophie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Courtney Stover To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Learning to learn faster > > Antonio, > > I'll return with more thoughts later tonight when I've properly > read > the article, but I thought I'd answer your questions, because > they > interest me on a philosophical level. > > This is one of the ways that, frankly, my life experience simply > hasn't jived with NFB philosophy. NFB philosophy emphasizes the > importance of fast Braille reading, which I agree with; practice > absolutely must be maintained. However, they also seem to > strongly > insist on Braille textbooks, which I don't get behind so much. > Doing > college-level reading; I have never had to consume material as > quickly as I am right now. And, at least for me, reading > textbooks > in Braille is simply impractical, even if that Braille has > shifted > to electronic instead of hardcopy. I can read loads faster, > even > with something like RFBD and the Bookmarks function on my player > to > find important material again, than I ever thought about with > Braille, particularly because I can quickly skim over > superfluous > material like map descriptions, vocabulary I already remember, > or > excerpts from outside documents that are meant to enhance the > readings, which are always located at the end of the page, by > simply > going to the next one with the press of a button. With books > read > by a screen reader, particularly if they're from somewhere like > Bookshare and have Daisy navigation, this is even more true. > > I think your point is very true, about Braille readers only > reading > at the pace of sighted ones. I went in recently to take a test > in > Braille (the one reason I keep my Braille skills sharp; my test > performance plummets when I have to have a reader), and was > noted as > one of the fastest Braille readers the proctor had ever seen. > However, someone was taking the same test with a screen reader, > and > was finished in half the time I was. So, learning to take tests > with screen and human readers is something I wish to become > proficient > at. > After all, I may have Braille accommodation now, but I doubt a > workplace, such as a call center, that has a training process > before > proper work begins, is going to allow me to have a Braille > display. > > Now, this says nothing about leisure activities, in which I > vastly > prefer Braille to audio, save in rare cases. If I'm going to > read a > book, I want to actually be reading it. Also, any proofing task > would be made immensely more difficult without the use of > Braille. > > I hope this at least provides an interesting perspective on your > questions, as you certainly provided a very interesting article > I'm > looking forward to diving in to. > Warmly, > Courtney > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40co > mca > st.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g > mail > .com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly% > 40gma > il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreib > er26%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver > izon.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com > From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 01:52:33 2014 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 20:52:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Meetings Message-ID: <7A337CBF-537F-47CD-B95E-5A06CA1D2860@yahoo.com> Hello, when are NABS meetings normally held? Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 02:01:11 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 18:01:11 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Meetings In-Reply-To: <7A337CBF-537F-47CD-B95E-5A06CA1D2860@yahoo.com> References: <7A337CBF-537F-47CD-B95E-5A06CA1D2860@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Committee meetings of our national student division are held at times which best fit the schedules of the members of that committee. Membership calls are typically held at 7 PM Eastern time on Sundays. The particular Sunday depends upon availability of presenters and calls have been known to take place on other days of the week dependent upon the scheduling needs of the presenter. This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 2, 2014, at 5:52 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: > > Hello, when are NABS meetings normally held? > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Mon Mar 3 02:04:51 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 21:04:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Meetings In-Reply-To: <7A337CBF-537F-47CD-B95E-5A06CA1D2860@yahoo.com> References: <7A337CBF-537F-47CD-B95E-5A06CA1D2860@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E258742-AC9F-4F7F-BF5E-EFB624786FE3@icloud.com> you asking about state devisions? Sent from my iPad On Mar 2, 2014, at 8:52 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: > Hello, when are NABS meetings normally held? > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 02:13:37 2014 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 21:13:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Networking Message-ID: Hello, I am attending a convention for a professional organization in my field at the end of this week. I've been to events like this in the past, and I have experience and networking. But I would like to know if you have any suggestions as to how you network and a group of hundreds or even thousands of people as a person who is visually impaired. Thank you, Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 3 02:14:52 2014 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 21:14:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Meetings In-Reply-To: <4E258742-AC9F-4F7F-BF5E-EFB624786FE3@icloud.com> References: <7A337CBF-537F-47CD-B95E-5A06CA1D2860@yahoo.com> <4E258742-AC9F-4F7F-BF5E-EFB624786FE3@icloud.com> Message-ID: <813BB3B9-C67D-4CB7-A108-B03F5E57B808@yahoo.com> No, the NABS calls. Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Mar 2, 2014, at 9:04 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > > you asking about state devisions? > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 2, 2014, at 8:52 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: >> >> Hello, when are NABS meetings normally held? >> >> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >> (336) 988-6375 >> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Mon Mar 3 15:33:19 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 10:33:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers Message-ID: <000E2A47-09B3-4653-96AC-6512688B7D27@icloud.com> Hi, Are E Readers accessible? I am not going to this school, but one school said they had Ereaders that I could use if I attended the school. I am just curious. Mikayla Sent from my iPad From johnniejduran at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 15:36:16 2014 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:36:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers In-Reply-To: <000E2A47-09B3-4653-96AC-6512688B7D27@icloud.com> References: <000E2A47-09B3-4653-96AC-6512688B7D27@icloud.com> Message-ID: Hi, E-readers are not accessible yet. There is no voice capability. JJ On 3/3/14, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > Hi, > Are E Readers accessible? I am not going to this school, but one school > said they had Ereaders that I could use if I attended the school. I am just > curious. > Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: http://facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Skype: jj.duran13 Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) From freethaught at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 15:44:44 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 10:44:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Networking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25ACB31C-6985-4287-A203-81BFB104FCD6@gmail.com> Shake as many hands as you can, and never leave somebody without asking, and getting the business card. Never spent more than a few minutes with the person, because that will mean you are spending too much time with them, and won't talked with many people. Alright, alright. If you thought I was kidding about that, you are dead on. There is a lot of focus today on networking. A lot of people have misconceptions about how it works effectively. You need to be well-dressed, have a firm and professional handshake, a contact card, an elevator speech, and so on. Some people use a much despised word in conjunction with networking. Shmoozing. To me, that connotes sucking up to get what you want. To be sure, building your network will help you get what you want. But that is not where you start. As a matter fact, you should be concerned with how you can contribute to the person in your network first. This is how you will be remembered, why they will like you, and why they will want to do something for you. There are questions we need to address as blind people attending networking events. I won't address that here. Here are some general rules that work in general. One of the keys to networking is to keep in touch. Get someone contact information, save it in one central location, and add a system that reminds you to keep in touch with your contact every so often. Some may find this very contrived, but you're better off doing this, then nothing at all. Worse yet, you would be wasting your time, money, and effort attending and paying for conferences, pocketing the business card, sending one email to tell the person you exist, and never talking with them again. I hope this helps. Antonio On Mar 2, 2014, at 9:13 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: > Hello, > > I am attending a convention for a professional organization in my field at the end of this week. I've been to events like this in the past, and I have experience and networking. But I would like to know if you have any suggestions as to how you network and a group of hundreds or even thousands of people as a person who is visually impaired. > > Thank you, > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 16:58:22 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:58:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks about independence as a core of our philosophy. What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social groups. This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone will have a perception of that. As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing wrong with my approach on either day. If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and will do so very firmly. If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and quick. Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe. But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction. If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, I will be guided by Cain. Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between me, and the guy. Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual trouble from that. We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. It changes with time also. But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with something or another. I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and over, and over by different people at different places at different times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on. I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. Antonio On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >> >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? >> Thanks. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Mar 3 17:09:08 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:09:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers In-Reply-To: <000E2A47-09B3-4653-96AC-6512688B7D27@icloud.com> References: <000E2A47-09B3-4653-96AC-6512688B7D27@icloud.com> Message-ID: Hi, Yes, to some extent. Some ereaders are also tablets and are accessible. For instance you can use an ipad or ipot touch as an ereader; I do not have one, but I know its accessible. You can read I books with voice over. Also, the Kindle fire HD has just come out with the android screen reader which I believe is called talk back. Several ereaders are not accessible yet; these include the sony reader and nook. Also, sometimes the ebook publishers will make it in a format you cannot read, even if your device is accessible. For instance, I do not think adobe digital editions is accessible yet. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mikayla Gephart Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 10:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers Hi, Are E Readers accessible? I am not going to this school, but one school said they had Ereaders that I could use if I attended the school. I am just curious. Mikayla Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From freethaught at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 17:23:38 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:23:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] What is independence? In-Reply-To: <008c01cf340f$fa82e5b0$ef88b110$@labarrelaw.com> References: <78E88062-26CE-4FFF-8D80-3E263CC4FD85@gmail.com> <530FB2EA.2080107@gmail.com> <008c01cf340f$fa82e5b0$ef88b110$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: Hi Scott, I wonder how many people, including some in leadership, have actually read this piece. I've run into more than one occasion when a person with leadership role in the NFB ostracized another of lesser ranking for using philosophically inferior methods for achieving independence. I've heard of a few instances of friends being lectured, even if for just a ten second long reprimand about blindness techniques. These people never forgot these interactions. Heck, they may have spent several minutes discussing the episode with me, which tells me they've done it also with others. The reprimand had an impact in the so-called low skilled blind person. I sure had a few thoughts about someone calling me out on using sighted guide techniques on the premise that quote "we don't do that here." Unquote. I can not imagine the person with the perceived power in these cases did not read this article. this type of interaction often drives people to think of the NFB as militant and the like. I don't know how some of the perceptions can change. I don't know if they will ever change, but at least the organization has taken some steps to learn about its image. Does anyone know what direction we are taking from any lessons learned after conducting the "what do you think of the NFB" image survey a few months ago? I'm sure it wasn't cheap to hire the PR consultants who ran that for us. What are we getting in return? Antonio On Feb 27, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > On this topic, everyone should read Dr. Jernigan's speech, the Nature of > Independence. You can read or listen to the actual audio. It is under > publication and then speeches and reports on the nfb.org website. In my > view, it is one of the most compelling speeches in our history. > > Best, > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Silveira > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] What is independence? > > Hi all, > > I agree with what has been said thus far; the word "independence" has > several connotative meanings. For me, I believe that an independent person > has the ability to function without being fully reliant on others to manage > their lives. Independence does not, however, necessarily mean that one must > never rely on others for assistance. Whether one is blind, hearing > impaired, in a wheel chair, developmentally challenged or without any > diagnosed disability, one still needs to ask for assistance from time to > time. If a person can think for themselves, take care of themselves, make > trivial and important decisions by and for themselves and manage life in > general (whether that be home life, school, a career or all of the above) > and do it mostly on their own, they are independent. They should also, > however, know when to ask for help. No one should have to go through life > alone. Every person needs help in some way. The greatest sign of > independence is the ability to manage life on one's own, while also knowing > where the limit is and when to ask for help. > > > Ryan L. Silveira > > > On Feb 27, 2014, at 4:49 PM, Desiree Oudinot > wrote: > >> Hi, >> This is a very good topic for discussion. >> >> For me, true independence is living your life without feeling burdened by > the things that you can't do. It is knowing that you have the skills > necessary to achieve whatever your goals and aspirations in life are. >> More importantly, it means knowing your limits. It means being able to > explore the depths of your soul freely and without guilt. This is necessary > because people who scream the loudest about their independence are often the > ones who spend the most time consciously emulating someone else's values and > beliefs. If one can think for themselves, and be inspired by, rather than > shamed into, knowing how they feel about themselves, their place in the > world, their morals, etc., that, to me, is the key ingredient to being truly > independent. >> >> On 2/26/2014 5:08 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> It seems to me that a word that we use a lot in the Federation is > independence. >>> Obviously, we go about it differently which would suggest differing > definitions for each individual. As you read this message, I wonder what the > word independence means to you? >>> Best, >>> Darian >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co > m >>> . >>> >> >> -- >> Desiree >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 17:25:11 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:25:11 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Awesome service oppertunity for students Message-ID: All: Check it out and please do share ! AmeriCorps National Civilian Community Corps Make a difference. Gain new skills. Travel the country. Want to give back while learning new skills? AmeriCorps NCCC could be the perfect opportunity for you to help communities, and get the experience of a lifetime. We are looking for men and women ages 18-24 who are enthusiastic and hard-working to join our team. What is NCCC? AmeriCorps National Civilian Community Corps (NCCC) is a full-time, team- based residential service program for young adults who want to give back to communities in need at different locations across the country. For 10 months, you'll work on 4-6 projects such as: engaging youth; building and rehabilitating homes for families in need; cleaning up parks, streams, trails, and shorelines; fighting and preventing wildfires; and helping communities recover from disasters. You'll be assigned to one of five campuses across the country. What you will get out of the experience: * The opportunity to travel across the country * Valuable skills to enhance your resume--such as leadership and team building * CPR, first aid, and disaster response training * Room, board, healthcare, uniform, and equipment * A living allowance of about $4,000 * The ability to defer qualified student loans * A Segal AmeriCorps Education Award of $5,645 to help pay for college, graduate school, or pay back qualified student loans * The satisfaction of helping communities and making our country a better place Join AmeriCorps NCCC today! Apply at www.NationalService.gov or call 800-942-2677 (TTY 800-833-3722). Follow us on Facebook at AmeriCorpsNCCC and Twitter @AmeriCorpsNCCC. We offer service opportunities without regard to race, color, national origin, disability, gender, sexual orientation, religion, political affiliation, and other non-merit factors. -- Darian Smith Text the word BLIND to 85944 to donate $10 to the NFB Imagination Fund via your phone bill. The time is now to eliminate Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities http://www.nfb.org/fairwages "We know not of our future, but we know of our past. A past that is made up of our ancestor's Dreams, their stories and hopes. These sights once seen, sounds heard and emotions felt are now our knowledge. The knowledge that guides us to this very moment..." -Darian Smith From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 17:29:51 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:29:51 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Another service oppertunity for students Message-ID: All: FYI FEMA Corps: AmeriCorps in Action Make a difference when it matters most with FEMA Corps. Are you interested in a career in emergency management? Want to leave your mark while learning new skills? FEMA Corps could be the perfect opportunity for you to get experience, while helping others. We are looking for men and women ages 18-24 to join our emergency management team. What is FEMA Corps? FEMA Corps is an NCCC track for young adults who want to gain professional skills in emergency management while serving with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) staff on disaster response and recovery efforts. It is a 10 month, full-time, team-based residential service program that was developed in partnership with FEMA and the Corporation for National and Community Service, the agency that oversees AmeriCorps NCCC. As a member, you'll be assigned to one of five NCCC campuses. Your focus will solely be on emergency management and long-term recovery activities within FEMA. You'll provide administrative and logistical support in areas that include: Educating communities, assessing Working with nonprofits and needs, and collecting information government agencies to coordinate services for disaster survivors Developing materials that promote disaster preparation to the public Helping survivors complete applications for disaster assistance Ordering materials, tracking inventory, loading supplies, and managing IT Assessing and reporting damage to equipment public facilities Updating electronic files, managing Setting up shelter operations and data, and compiling reports re-unification of families and pets What are the benefits of joining? You'll receive all of the same benefits as traditional AmeriCorps NCCC members, plus additional training and experience to prepare you for a career in emergency management and related fields. You'll learn about working with communities, public speaking, customer service, and office/management skills while giving back and positively impacting the lives of disaster survivors. JOIN FEMA CORPS TODAY! Apply at www.NationalService.gov or call 800-942-2677 (TTY 800-833-3722). Follow us on Facebook at AmeriCorps NCCC and Twitter @AmeriCorpsNCCC. We offer service opportunities without regard to race, color, national origin, disability, gender, sexual orientation, religion, -- Darian Smith Text the word BLIND to 85944 to donate $10 to the NFB Imagination Fund via your phone bill. The time is now to eliminate Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities http://www.nfb.org/fairwages "We know not of our future, but we know of our past. A past that is made up of our ancestor's Dreams, their stories and hopes. These sights once seen, sounds heard and emotions felt are now our knowledge. The knowledge that guides us to this very moment..." -Darian Smith From carlymih at comcast.net Mon Mar 3 18:45:23 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 10:45:23 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> Good morning, Antonio, I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be it It doesn't matter, in the end. It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of this reality. loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that >talks about independence as a core of our philosophy. > >What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they >deal with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how >close friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in >our social groups. >This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is >okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. >If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through >tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like >dealing with the same environment on my own, independently if you >will, someone will have a perception of that. > >As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my >own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is >nothing wrong with my approach on either day. > >If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose >my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. >I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it >down, and will do so very firmly. > >If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, >pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great >opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. > >Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and quick. >Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of >how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe. > >But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with >traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction. > >If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about >safety, I will be guided by Cain. > >Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences >between me, and the guy. > >Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by >Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any >spiritual trouble from that. > >We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. >How we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to >situation. It changes with time also. > >But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is >the right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >something or another. > >I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >over, and over by different people at different places at different >times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? > >That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from >help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on. > >I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. > >Antonio > >On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: > > > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what > you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: > >> > >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone > brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of > something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by > taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help > me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the > cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm > wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I > ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or > should I have done what I did, and politely said no? > >> Thanks. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 20:45:12 2014 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:45:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8DF31639-2592-4CC6-9C87-85B05EB3542B@gmail.com> Ol' sighty cares how we do things when considering us for employment, or entering into a contract with us, or deciding whether their kids can sleep over with our kids under our supervision, etc, etc, etc. I had a would-be landlord deny me housing once because he didn't understand how I would climb the stairs into the house, or write a check for the rent, or keep the place clean unassisted by a caregiver. I think if help isn't needed, it's valid to say so and then demonstrate so in hopes of creating one less ignorant person to make life harder for the rest of us. Accept help if you need or want it, but don't do it simply because you don't think it leaves an impression on sighted folks. That seems irresponsible. . Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 3, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Antonio, > > I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. > Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be it It doesn't matter, in the end. > It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of this reality. > loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks about independence as a core of our philosophy. >> >> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social groups. >> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone will have a perception of that. >> >> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing wrong with my approach on either day. >> >> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and will do so very firmly. >> >> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >> >> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and quick. >> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >> >> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction. >> >> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, I will be guided by Cain. >> >> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between me, and the guy. >> >> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual trouble from that. >> >> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. It changes with time also. >> >> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with something or another. >> >> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and over, and over by different people at different places at different times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >> >> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >> >> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >> >> Antonio >> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 20:57:21 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 15:57:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com><7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <8DF31639-2592-4CC6-9C87-85B05EB3542B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02AD44D44F2645BA820B9484896A3ECB@robert9999b7cf> Sighted people do not care wheather or not you've been to CCB, LCB, or blind inc. They want action and not just talk. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Principato" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > Ol' sighty cares how we do things when considering us for employment, or > entering into a contract with us, or deciding whether their kids can sleep > over with our kids under our supervision, etc, etc, etc. I had a would-be > landlord deny me housing once because he didn't understand how I would > climb the stairs into the house, or write a check for the rent, or keep > the place clean unassisted by a caregiver. I think if help isn't needed, > it's valid to say so and then demonstrate so in hopes of creating one less > ignorant person to make life harder for the rest of us. Accept help if you > need or want it, but don't do it simply because you don't think it leaves > an impression on sighted folks. That seems irresponsible. . > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 3, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> Good morning, Antonio, >> >> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my >> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not >> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their >> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help >> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't >> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. >> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to >> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be >> it It doesn't matter, in the end. >> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more >> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract >> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, >> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by >> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward >> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to >> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in >> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are >> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and >> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of >> this reality. >> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks >>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>> >>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal >>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close >>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social >>> groups. >>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay >>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel >>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight >>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing >>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone >>> will have a perception of that. >>> >>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, >>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing >>> wrong with my approach on either day. >>> >>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my >>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may >>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and >>> will do so very firmly. >>> >>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling >>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to >>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>> >>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and >>> quick. >>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I >>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>> >>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a >>> short distance guided by the cane direction. >>> >>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, >>> I will be guided by Cain. >>> >>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between >>> me, and the guy. >>> >>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, >>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual >>> trouble from that. >>> >>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How >>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. >>> It changes with time also. >>> >>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the >>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >>> something or another. >>> >>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >>> over, and over by different people at different places at different >>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>> >>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, >>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>> >>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>> >>> Antonio >>> >>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato >>> wrote: >>> >>> > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you >>> > did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >>> >> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >>> >> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by >>> >> taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me >>> >> with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's >>> >> door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm >>> >> wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask >>> >> for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I >>> >> have done what I did, and politely said no? >>> >> Thanks. >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 21:07:57 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 16:07:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <02AD44D44F2645BA820B9484896A3ECB@robert9999b7cf> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <8DF31639-2592-4CC6-9C87-85B05EB3542B@gmail.com> <02AD44D44F2645BA820B9484896A3ECB@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: <3EC73286-2BAB-4E17-977E-DC4EB84EBA91@gmail.com> That's correct. So we get training that we may have the confidence to show the action of which you speak. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 3, 2014, at 3:57 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > > Sighted people do not care wheather or not you've been to CCB, LCB, or blind inc. They want action and not just talk. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Principato" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 3:45 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > > >> Ol' sighty cares how we do things when considering us for employment, or entering into a contract with us, or deciding whether their kids can sleep over with our kids under our supervision, etc, etc, etc. I had a would-be landlord deny me housing once because he didn't understand how I would climb the stairs into the house, or write a check for the rent, or keep the place clean unassisted by a caregiver. I think if help isn't needed, it's valid to say so and then demonstrate so in hopes of creating one less ignorant person to make life harder for the rest of us. Accept help if you need or want it, but don't do it simply because you don't think it leaves an impression on sighted folks. That seems irresponsible. . >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> >>> Good morning, Antonio, >>> >>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be it It doesn't matter, in the end. >>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of this reality. >>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>>> >>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social groups. >>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone will have a perception of that. >>>> >>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing wrong with my approach on either day. >>>> >>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and will do so very firmly. >>>> >>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>>> >>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and quick. >>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>>> >>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction. >>>> >>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, I will be guided by Cain. >>>> >>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between me, and the guy. >>>> >>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual trouble from that. >>>> >>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. It changes with time also. >>>> >>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with something or another. >>>> >>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and over, and over by different people at different places at different times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>>> >>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>>> >>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>>> >>>> Antonio >>>> >>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: >>>> >>>> > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you > did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>>> > >>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>> > >>>> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by >> taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me >> with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's >> door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm >> wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask >> for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I >> have done what I did, and politely said no? >>>> >> Thanks. >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Mar 3 21:12:25 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 16:12:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <02AD44D44F2645BA820B9484896A3ECB@robert9999b7cf> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com><7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net><8DF31639-2592-4CC6-9C87-85B05EB3542B@gmail.com> <02AD44D44F2645BA820B9484896A3ECB@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: <3ED0BFBC1B0D491EA356669D9DB2A673@OwnerPC> RJ, I beg to differ. While they m may not care which center you obtained your training, a sighted person close to you will care about your well being and independence. Doing things for someone day in and day out gets tiring. With training someone can do it themselves. Many sighted people will be glad you can do it yourself, and not inconvenience them. Sometimes the help the person offers us is inconveneint to them, yet they do it because they do not feel we can do for ourselves. but with more training we show we can. So they will care then. it transforms our image the more we can do on our own. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 3:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence Sighted people do not care wheather or not you've been to CCB, LCB, or blind inc. They want action and not just talk. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Principato" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > Ol' sighty cares how we do things when considering us for employment, or > entering into a contract with us, or deciding whether their kids can sleep > over with our kids under our supervision, etc, etc, etc. I had a would-be > landlord deny me housing once because he didn't understand how I would > climb the stairs into the house, or write a check for the rent, or keep > the place clean unassisted by a caregiver. I think if help isn't needed, > it's valid to say so and then demonstrate so in hopes of creating one less > ignorant person to make life harder for the rest of us. Accept help if you > need or want it, but don't do it simply because you don't think it leaves > an impression on sighted folks. That seems irresponsible. . > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 3, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> Good morning, Antonio, >> >> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my >> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not >> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their >> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help >> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't >> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. >> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to >> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be >> it It doesn't matter, in the end. >> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more >> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract >> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, >> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by >> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward >> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to >> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in >> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are >> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and >> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of >> this reality. >> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks >>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>> >>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal >>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close >>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social >>> groups. >>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay >>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel >>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight >>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing >>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone >>> will have a perception of that. >>> >>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, >>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing >>> wrong with my approach on either day. >>> >>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my >>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may >>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and >>> will do so very firmly. >>> >>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling >>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to >>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>> >>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and >>> quick. >>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I >>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>> >>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a >>> short distance guided by the cane direction. >>> >>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, >>> I will be guided by Cain. >>> >>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between >>> me, and the guy. >>> >>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, >>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual >>> trouble from that. >>> >>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How >>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. >>> It changes with time also. >>> >>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the >>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >>> something or another. >>> >>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >>> over, and over by different people at different places at different >>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>> >>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, >>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>> >>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>> >>> Antonio >>> >>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato >>> wrote: >>> >>> > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you >>> > did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >>> >> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >>> >> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by >>> >> taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me >>> >> with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's >>> >> door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm >>> >> wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask >>> >> for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I >>> >> have done what I did, and politely said no? >>> >> Thanks. >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 21:31:22 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:31:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <3ED0BFBC1B0D491EA356669D9DB2A673@OwnerPC> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <8DF31639-2592-4CC6-9C87-85B05EB3542B@gmail.com> <02AD44D44F2645BA820B9484896A3ECB@robert9999b7cf> <3ED0BFBC1B0D491EA356669D9DB2A673@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I actually did use LCB training to my advantage when a prospective landlady questioned how I would keep the place clean. I told her that I had been expected to keep my apartment clean at LCB when they did inspections and I did so successfully. Fortunately, she offered me the place. Later I found out that her previous tenant (sighted) was very messy. She thanked me many times for keeping the place clean and encouraged me to keep the place when my husband-to-be moved in. Arielle On 3/3/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > RJ, > I beg to differ. While they m may not care which center you obtained your > training, a sighted person close to you will care about your well being and > > independence. Doing things for someone day in and day out gets tiring. > With training someone can do it themselves. Many sighted people will be glad > > you can do it yourself, and not inconvenience them. Sometimes the help the > person offers us is inconveneint to them, yet they do it because they do not > > feel we can do for ourselves. but with more training we show we can. > > So they will care then. it transforms our image the more we can do on our > own. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 3:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > > Sighted people do not care wheather or not you've been to CCB, LCB, or > blind > inc. They want action and not just talk. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jamie Principato" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 3:45 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > > >> Ol' sighty cares how we do things when considering us for employment, or >> entering into a contract with us, or deciding whether their kids can sleep >> >> over with our kids under our supervision, etc, etc, etc. I had a would-be >> >> landlord deny me housing once because he didn't understand how I would >> climb the stairs into the house, or write a check for the rent, or keep >> the place clean unassisted by a caregiver. I think if help isn't needed, >> it's valid to say so and then demonstrate so in hopes of creating one less >> >> ignorant person to make life harder for the rest of us. Accept help if you >> >> need or want it, but don't do it simply because you don't think it leaves >> >> an impression on sighted folks. That seems irresponsible. . >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Good morning, Antonio, >>> >>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my >>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not >>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their >>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help >>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't >>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. >>> >>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to >>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be >>> >>> it It doesn't matter, in the end. >>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more >>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract >>> >>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, >>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by >>> >>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward >>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to >>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in >>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are >>> >>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and >>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of >>> >>> this reality. >>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks >>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>>> >>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal >>>> >>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close >>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social >>>> >>>> groups. >>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay >>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel >>>> >>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight >>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing >>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone >>>> >>>> will have a perception of that. >>>> >>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, >>>> >>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing >>>> wrong with my approach on either day. >>>> >>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my >>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may >>>> >>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and >>>> will do so very firmly. >>>> >>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling >>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to >>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>>> >>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and >>>> quick. >>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I >>>> >>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>>> >>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a >>>> >>>> short distance guided by the cane direction. >>>> >>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, >>>> >>>> I will be guided by Cain. >>>> >>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between >>>> >>>> me, and the guy. >>>> >>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, >>>> >>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual >>>> trouble from that. >>>> >>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How >>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. >>>> >>>> It changes with time also. >>>> >>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the >>>> >>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >>>> something or another. >>>> >>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different >>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>>> >>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, >>>> >>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>>> >>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>>> >>>> Antonio >>>> >>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you >>>> > did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>>> > >>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>> > >>>> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >>>> >> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >>>> >> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by >>>> >> taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me >>>> >> with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's >>>> >> >>>> >> door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm >>>> >> wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask >>>> >> >>>> >> for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I >>>> >> >>>> >> have done what I did, and politely said no? >>>> >> Thanks. >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> >> >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> > >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 02:05:46 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 21:05:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers In-Reply-To: References: <000E2A47-09B3-4653-96AC-6512688B7D27@icloud.com> Message-ID: It really depends on the combination of E-reader and the type of file used; bear in mind that notetakers are also regarded as E-readers, too. It is true that there are some E-readers that aren't accessible. However, there are a few other options. I've heard good things about the kindle app, and I have poked around Blio on my tablet with success. E-reader is a very broad term. On 3/3/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi, > Yes, to some extent. Some ereaders are also tablets and are accessible. For > > instance you can use an ipad or ipot touch as an ereader; I do not have one, > > but I know its accessible. You can read I books with voice over. Also, the > Kindle fire HD has just come out with the android screen reader which I > believe is called talk back. > > Several ereaders are not accessible yet; these include the sony reader and > nook. Also, sometimes the ebook publishers will make it in a format you > cannot read, even if your device is accessible. For instance, I do not think > > adobe digital editions is accessible yet. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikayla Gephart > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 10:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers > > Hi, > Are E Readers accessible? I am not going to this school, but one school said > > they had Ereaders that I could use if I attended the school. I am just > curious. > Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Mar 4 05:25:34 2014 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 23:25:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> Greetings. Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce this message. I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so complicated. I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based on behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis that they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any task of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their own, it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further training. If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more convenient to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for someone. Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis. Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you take a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this thread seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this concept of autonomy. Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even though it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided people are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of autonomy and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when they already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the problem is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations are both internal and external. Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the case for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can contribute to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never get it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence as it relates to all the topics discussed above. Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to do something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to get help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively and working on your own. If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the situation is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward between you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, I provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that I can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it means making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade for the help they give me. If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with unwanted assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to do away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an ambassador for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research tells us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone gets help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between getting help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the reality is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the notion that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to independence. I have found this to be less so than not. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Antonio, > > I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. > Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be it It doesn't matter, in the end. > It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of this reality. > loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks about independence as a core of our philosophy. >> >> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social groups. >> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone will have a perception of that. >> >> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing wrong with my approach on either day. >> >> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and will do so very firmly. >> >> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >> >> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and quick. >> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >> >> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction. >> >> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, I will be guided by Cain. >> >> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between me, and the guy. >> >> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual trouble from that. >> >> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. It changes with time also. >> >> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with something or another. >> >> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and over, and over by different people at different places at different times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >> >> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >> >> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >> >> Antonio >> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 05:30:32 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 00:30:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> Message-ID: <018c01cf376a$dd52b5c0$97f82140$@gmail.com> You did all that with siri? Wow -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Moerke Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence Greetings. Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce this message. I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so complicated. I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based on behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis that they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any task of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their own, it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further training. If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more convenient to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for someone. Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis. Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you take a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this thread seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this concept of autonomy. Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even though it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided people are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of autonomy and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when they already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the problem is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations are both internal and external. Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the case for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can contribute to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never get it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence as it relates to all the topics discussed above. Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to do something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to get help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively and working on your own. If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the situation is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward between you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, I provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that I can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it means making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade for the help they give me. If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with unwanted assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to do away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an ambassador for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research tells us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone gets help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between getting help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the reality is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the notion that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to independence. I have found this to be less so than not. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, Antonio, > > I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. > Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be it It doesn't matter, in the end. > It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of this reality. > loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks about independence as a core of our philosophy. >> >> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social groups. >> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone will have a perception of that. >> >> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing wrong with my approach on either day. >> >> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and will do so very firmly. >> >> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >> >> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and quick. >> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >> >> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction. >> >> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, I will be guided by Cain. >> >> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between me, and the guy. >> >> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual trouble from that. >> >> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. It changes with time also. >> >> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with something or another. >> >> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and over, and over by different people at different places at different times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >> >> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >> >> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >> >> Antonio >> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> > If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile .net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From malhajamy at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 05:42:39 2014 From: malhajamy at gmail.com (Mohamed) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 00:42:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers Message-ID: <531567d7.1473e00a.12d6.206a@mx.google.com> Wonder what e readers are? ----- Original Message ----- From: Kaiti Shelton wrote: Hi, Yes, to some extent. Some ereaders are also tablets and are accessible. For instance you can use an ipad or ipot touch as an ereader; I do not have one, but I know its accessible. You can read I books with voice over. Also, the Kindle fire HD has just come out with the android screen reader which I believe is called talk back. Several ereaders are not accessible yet; these include the sony reader and nook. Also, sometimes the ebook publishers will make it in a format you cannot read, even if your device is accessible. For instance, I do not think adobe digital editions is accessible yet. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mikayla Gephart Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 10:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers Hi, Are E Readers accessible? I am not going to this school, but one school said they had Ereaders that I could use if I attended the school. I am just curious. Mikayla Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104%40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g mail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 13:19:22 2014 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:19:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> Message-ID: Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely. Thanks. Antonio On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > Greetings. > > Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce this message. > > I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so complicated. > > I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based on behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis that they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any task of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their own, it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further training. > > If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more convenient to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for someone. Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis. > > Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you take a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this thread seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this concept of autonomy. > > Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even though it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided people are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of autonomy and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when they already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the problem is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations are both internal and external. > > Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the case for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can contribute to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never get it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. > > I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence as it relates to all the topics discussed above. > > Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to do something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to get help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively and working on your own. > > If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the situation is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward between you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, I provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that I can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it means making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade for the help they give me. > > If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with unwanted assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to do away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an ambassador for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research tells us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone gets help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between getting help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the reality is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. > > Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the notion that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. > > And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to independence. I have found this to be less so than not. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> Good morning, Antonio, >> >> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be it It doesn't matter, in the end. >> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of this reality. >> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>> >>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social groups. >>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone will have a perception of that. >>> >>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing wrong with my approach on either day. >>> >>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and will do so very firmly. >>> >>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>> >>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and quick. >>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>> >>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction. >>> >>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, I will be guided by Cain. >>> >>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between me, and the guy. >>> >>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual trouble from that. >>> >>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. It changes with time also. >>> >>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with something or another. >>> >>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and over, and over by different people at different places at different times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>> >>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>> >>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>> >>> Antonio >>> >>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: >>> >>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done what I did, and politely said no? >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From cape.amanda at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 14:00:04 2014 From: cape.amanda at gmail.com (Amanda Cape) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 09:00:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers In-Reply-To: References: <000E2A47-09B3-4653-96AC-6512688B7D27@icloud.com> Message-ID: I wonder if you can use the kindle fire hd with a braille display too. Amanda On 3/3/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi, > Yes, to some extent. Some ereaders are also tablets and are accessible. For > > instance you can use an ipad or ipot touch as an ereader; I do not have one, > > but I know its accessible. You can read I books with voice over. Also, the > Kindle fire HD has just come out with the android screen reader which I > believe is called talk back. > > Several ereaders are not accessible yet; these include the sony reader and > nook. Also, sometimes the ebook publishers will make it in a format you > cannot read, even if your device is accessible. For instance, I do not think > > adobe digital editions is accessible yet. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikayla Gephart > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 10:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers > > Hi, > Are E Readers accessible? I am not going to this school, but one school said > > they had Ereaders that I could use if I attended the school. I am just > curious. > Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%40gmail.com > From malhajamy at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 20:17:56 2014 From: malhajamy at gmail.com (Mohamed) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 15:17:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers Message-ID: <531634fc.236d8c0a.0b0a.0053@mx.google.com> What are e readers? ----- Original Message ----- From: Amanda Cape wrote: Hi, Yes, to some extent. Some ereaders are also tablets and are accessible. For instance you can use an ipad or ipot touch as an ereader; I do not have one, but I know its accessible. You can read I books with voice over. Also, the Kindle fire HD has just come out with the android screen reader which I believe is called talk back. Several ereaders are not accessible yet; these include the sony reader and nook. Also, sometimes the ebook publishers will make it in a format you cannot read, even if your device is accessible. For instance, I do not think adobe digital editions is accessible yet. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mikayla Gephart Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 10:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers Hi, Are E Readers accessible? I am not going to this school, but one school said they had Ereaders that I could use if I attended the school. I am just curious. Mikayla Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g mail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 22:59:57 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:59:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers In-Reply-To: <531634fc.236d8c0a.0b0a.0053@mx.google.com> References: <531634fc.236d8c0a.0b0a.0053@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <031801cf37fd$77355070$659ff150$@gmail.com> eReaders are devices which allow people to read books and other material electronically. Some examples include iBooks for iOS, the Kindle, the Nook, and (in our case) the Victor Stream. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mohamed Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] E Readers What are e readers? ----- Original Message ----- From: Amanda Cape wrote: Hi, Yes, to some extent. Some ereaders are also tablets and are accessible. For instance you can use an ipad or ipot touch as an ereader; I do not have one, but I know its accessible. You can read I books with voice over. Also, the Kindle fire HD has just come out with the android screen reader which I believe is called talk back. Several ereaders are not accessible yet; these include the sony reader and nook. Also, sometimes the ebook publishers will make it in a format you cannot read, even if your device is accessible. For instance, I do not think adobe digital editions is accessible yet. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mikayla Gephart Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 10:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] E Readers Hi, Are E Readers accessible? I am not going to this school, but one school said they had Ereaders that I could use if I attended the school. I am just curious. Mikayla Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 0earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cape.amanda%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 02:25:38 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 19:25:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> Message-ID: Hi all, It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups. I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive relationships with others around us. Best, Arielle On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely. > Thanks. > > Antonio > > On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke > wrote: > >> Greetings. >> >> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce this >> message. >> >> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so >> complicated. >> >> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based on >> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about >> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who >> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently >> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis that >> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any task >> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their own, >> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further >> training. >> >> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is >> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. >> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much >> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more >> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more convenient >> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for someone. >> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case >> basis. >> >> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with >> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as >> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you take >> a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this thread >> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this >> concept of autonomy. >> >> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even though >> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and >> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when >> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person >> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a >> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the >> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves >> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of >> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided people >> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these >> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of autonomy >> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when they >> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound >> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the problem >> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations >> are both internal and external. >> >> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the case >> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we >> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience >> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can contribute >> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the >> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be >> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a >> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never get >> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. >> >> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence as >> it relates to all the topics discussed above. >> >> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices >> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to do >> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate >> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to get >> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be >> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that >> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then >> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively >> and working on your own. >> >> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the situation >> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, >> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know >> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique >> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are >> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without >> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help >> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice >> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward between >> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems >> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one >> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make >> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the >> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who >> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any >> information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, I >> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally >> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that >> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that I >> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it means >> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that >> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes >> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade >> for the help they give me. >> >> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with unwanted >> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I >> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the >> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to do >> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is >> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an ambassador >> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research tells >> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there >> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel >> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy >> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone gets >> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between getting >> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the reality >> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, >> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all >> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. >> >> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's >> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the notion >> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. >> >> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the >> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that >> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about >> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to >> independence. I have found this to be less so than not. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Good morning, Antonio, >>> >>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my >>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not >>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their >>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help >>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't >>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. >>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to >>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be >>> it It doesn't matter, in the end. >>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more >>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract >>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, >>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by >>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward >>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to >>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in >>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are >>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and >>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of >>> this reality. >>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks >>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>>> >>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal >>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close >>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social >>>> groups. >>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay >>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel >>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight >>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing >>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone >>>> will have a perception of that. >>>> >>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, >>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing >>>> wrong with my approach on either day. >>>> >>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my >>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may >>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and >>>> will do so very firmly. >>>> >>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling >>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to >>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>>> >>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and >>>> quick. >>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I >>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>>> >>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a >>>> short distance guided by the cane direction. >>>> >>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, >>>> I will be guided by Cain. >>>> >>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between >>>> me, and the guy. >>>> >>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, >>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual >>>> trouble from that. >>>> >>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How >>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. >>>> It changes with time also. >>>> >>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the >>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >>>> something or another. >>>> >>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different >>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>>> >>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, >>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>>> >>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>>> >>>> Antonio >>>> >>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you >>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >>>>>> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking >>>>>> cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with >>>>>> practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, >>>>>> getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. >>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In >>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done >>>>>> what I did, and politely said no? >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Mar 5 02:40:47 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 18:40:47 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140304183658.03fd6850@comcast.net> Hi, Arielle and everyone, As more of a youngster, I used to think this premise carried with it more logic than it actually does. Of course, upon one's interacting with a single blind person then of course, that person would set the tambour of all future blind people. Yet, I think I have identified the reality in which individuals set the pace for themselves. Good discussion! for today, Car 408-209-3239 , >It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind >person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree >with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind >people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me >think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm >negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups. >I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with >managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our >own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive >relationships with others around us. > >Best, >Arielle > >On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > > Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely. > > Thanks. > > > > Antonio > > > > On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke > > wrote: > > > >> Greetings. > >> > >> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce this > >> message. > >> > >> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so > >> complicated. > >> > >> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based on > >> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about > >> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who > >> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently > >> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis that > >> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any task > >> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their own, > >> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further > >> training. > >> > >> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is > >> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. > >> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much > >> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more > >> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more convenient > >> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for someone. > >> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case > >> basis. > >> > >> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with > >> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as > >> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you take > >> a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this thread > >> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this > >> concept of autonomy. > >> > >> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even though > >> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and > >> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when > >> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person > >> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a > >> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the > >> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves > >> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of > >> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided people > >> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these > >> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of autonomy > >> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when they > >> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound > >> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the problem > >> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations > >> are both internal and external. > >> > >> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the case > >> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we > >> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience > >> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can contribute > >> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the > >> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be > >> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a > >> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never get > >> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. > >> > >> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence as > >> it relates to all the topics discussed above. > >> > >> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices > >> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to do > >> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate > >> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to get > >> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be > >> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that > >> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then > >> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively > >> and working on your own. > >> > >> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the situation > >> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, > >> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know > >> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique > >> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are > >> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without > >> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help > >> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice > >> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward between > >> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems > >> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one > >> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make > >> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the > >> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who > >> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any > >> information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, I > >> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally > >> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that > >> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that I > >> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it means > >> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that > >> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes > >> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade > >> for the help they give me. > >> > >> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with unwanted > >> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I > >> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the > >> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to do > >> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is > >> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an ambassador > >> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research tells > >> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there > >> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel > >> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy > >> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone gets > >> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between getting > >> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the reality > >> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, > >> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all > >> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. > >> > >> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's > >> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the notion > >> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. > >> > >> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the > >> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that > >> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about > >> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to > >> independence. I have found this to be less so than not. > >> > >> Respectfully, > >> Jedi > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Good morning, Antonio, > >>> > >>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my > >>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not > >>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their > >>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help > >>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. > >>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't > >>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. > >>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to > >>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be > >>> it It doesn't matter, in the end. > >>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more > >>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract > >>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, > >>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by > >>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward > >>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to > >>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in > >>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are > >>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and > >>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of > >>> this reality. > >>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: > >>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks > >>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. > >>>> > >>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal > >>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close > >>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social > >>>> groups. > >>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may > >>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay > >>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel > >>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight > >>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing > >>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone > >>>> will have a perception of that. > >>>> > >>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know > >>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, > >>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing > >>>> wrong with my approach on either day. > >>>> > >>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the > >>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my > >>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may > >>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and > >>>> will do so very firmly. > >>>> > >>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling > >>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to > >>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. > >>>> > >>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because > >>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and > >>>> quick. > >>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I > >>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. > >>>> > >>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a > >>>> short distance guided by the cane direction. > >>>> > >>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, > >>>> I will be guided by Cain. > >>>> > >>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between > >>>> me, and the guy. > >>>> > >>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She > >>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, > >>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual > >>>> trouble from that. > >>>> > >>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How > >>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. > >>>> It changes with time also. > >>>> > >>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the > >>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with > >>>> something or another. > >>>> > >>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and > >>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different > >>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think > >>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? > >>>> > >>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, > >>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. > >>>> > >>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. > >>>> > >>>> Antonio > >>>> > >>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you > >>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone > >>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of > >>>>>> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking > >>>>>> cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with > >>>>>> practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, > >>>>>> getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. > >>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In > >>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done > >>>>>> what I did, and politely said no? > >>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 02:49:35 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:49:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com><7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net><1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> Message-ID: <94DDBFD0D5E44FEAAC5F0C39DD719103@robert9999b7cf> Why do rehabilitation agencies feel blind people need social skills training? Isn't that the rehabilitation centers job? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > Hi all, > > It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind > person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree > with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind > people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me > think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm > negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups. > I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with > managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our > own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive > relationships with others around us. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely. >> Thanks. >> >> Antonio >> >> On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke >> wrote: >> >>> Greetings. >>> >>> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce >>> this >>> message. >>> >>> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so >>> complicated. >>> >>> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based >>> on >>> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about >>> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who >>> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently >>> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis >>> that >>> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any >>> task >>> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their >>> own, >>> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further >>> training. >>> >>> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is >>> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. >>> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much >>> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more >>> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more >>> convenient >>> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for >>> someone. >>> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case >>> basis. >>> >>> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with >>> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as >>> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you >>> take >>> a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this >>> thread >>> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this >>> concept of autonomy. >>> >>> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even >>> though >>> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and >>> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when >>> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person >>> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a >>> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the >>> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find >>> themselves >>> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many >>> of >>> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided >>> people >>> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these >>> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of >>> autonomy >>> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when >>> they >>> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound >>> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the >>> problem >>> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations >>> are both internal and external. >>> >>> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the >>> case >>> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we >>> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience >>> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can >>> contribute >>> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the >>> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be >>> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a >>> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never >>> get >>> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. >>> >>> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence >>> as >>> it relates to all the topics discussed above. >>> >>> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices >>> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to >>> do >>> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate >>> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to >>> get >>> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be >>> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that >>> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, >>> then >>> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help >>> effectively >>> and working on your own. >>> >>> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the >>> situation >>> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, >>> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know >>> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique >>> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are >>> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without >>> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help >>> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice >>> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward >>> between >>> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems >>> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one >>> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make >>> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the >>> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who >>> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any >>> information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, >>> I >>> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally >>> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that >>> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that >>> I >>> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it >>> means >>> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that >>> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes >>> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade >>> for the help they give me. >>> >>> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with >>> unwanted >>> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I >>> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the >>> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to >>> do >>> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is >>> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an >>> ambassador >>> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research >>> tells >>> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when >>> there >>> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel >>> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy >>> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone >>> gets >>> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between >>> getting >>> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the >>> reality >>> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, >>> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all >>> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. >>> >>> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's >>> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the >>> notion >>> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. >>> >>> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the >>> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that >>> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about >>> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to >>> independence. I have found this to be less so than not. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good morning, Antonio, >>>> >>>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my >>>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not >>>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their >>>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help >>>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >>>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't >>>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as >>>> well. >>>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to >>>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so >>>> be >>>> it It doesn't matter, in the end. >>>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more >>>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually >>>> abstract >>>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, >>>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply >>>> by >>>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward >>>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to >>>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in >>>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There >>>> are >>>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and >>>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight >>>> of >>>> this reality. >>>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks >>>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>>>> >>>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they >>>>> deal >>>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close >>>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our >>>>> social >>>>> groups. >>>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >>>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay >>>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I >>>>> feel >>>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight >>>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing >>>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, >>>>> someone >>>>> will have a perception of that. >>>>> >>>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >>>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my >>>>> own, >>>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing >>>>> wrong with my approach on either day. >>>>> >>>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >>>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my >>>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I >>>>> may >>>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and >>>>> will do so very firmly. >>>>> >>>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling >>>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to >>>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>>>> >>>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >>>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and >>>>> quick. >>>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how >>>>> I >>>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>>>> >>>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling >>>>> a >>>>> short distance guided by the cane direction. >>>>> >>>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about >>>>> safety, >>>>> I will be guided by Cain. >>>>> >>>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences >>>>> between >>>>> me, and the guy. >>>>> >>>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >>>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by >>>>> Cain, >>>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual >>>>> trouble from that. >>>>> >>>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How >>>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to >>>>> situation. >>>>> It changes with time also. >>>>> >>>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is >>>>> the >>>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >>>>> something or another. >>>>> >>>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >>>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different >>>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >>>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>>>> >>>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from >>>>> help, >>>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>>>> >>>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>>>> >>>>> Antonio >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you >>>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >>>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >>>>>>> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by >>>>>>> taking >>>>>>> cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with >>>>>>> practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's >>>>>>> door, >>>>>>> getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. >>>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done >>>>>>> what I did, and politely said no? >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 02:52:23 2014 From: pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 18:52:23 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] test Message-ID: <53169181.e45a440a.0ae3.7cc5@mx.google.com> just testing got a new apex and had to add the email again From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Mar 5 02:58:47 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 18:58:47 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140304185222.03fd15a8@comcast.net> Hi, Jedi and everyone, I agree that was very artfully compacted. For me, in order to move about within my space given that my head is like a sieve, and I might get lost in a paper bag even if you pointed out the opening with which to get out. I have found it serves my immediate need to get an escort, as I negotiate my space. I hope like Gedi, escorting me is both fun and enlightening. I try to make it so, anyway. for today, Car 408-209-3239 0 5:19 AM 3/4/2014, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very >nicely. Thanks. > >Antonio > >On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > > > Greetings. > > > > Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to > produce this message. > > > > I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so > complicated. > > > > I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed > based on behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just > talking about blindness skills, there is a big difference between > somebody who occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes > one intermittently or situationally versus someone who takes one on > such a regular basis that they do not ever move on their own > volition. That can be said for any task of independence. If an > individual hardly ever does something on their own, it might be > rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further training. > > > > If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a > person is independent to the extent that their personal choices > stick. Also, Dr. Jernigan adds that independence is also a function > of how much inconvenience is involved for the self and others. > Sometimes, it is more convenient to do something on one's own. > Sometimes, it is more convenient to get help. Sometimes, helping > another person is convenient for someone. Sometimes not. These > things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis. > > > > Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with > disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as > autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether > you take a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your > own, this thread seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice > is wrapped up in this concept of autonomy. > > > > Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community > even though it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been > around a while and have noticed that people tend to be most upset > by potential helpers when some helper violates a boundary. For > instance, when a sighted person insists that a blind person needs > help, when a sighted person grabs a blind person, when a sighted > person tells a blind person something the blind person already > knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves equally > annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of > your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided > people are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The > reason why these things are so annoying is because they interfere > with a sense of autonomy and personal choice. Also, people do not > like to be messed with when they already have a skill required to > perform a task. Does any of this sound familiar? It should be. But > for those of us with disabilities, the problem is compounded by low > expectations of what we can do. These expectations are both > internal and external. > > > > Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is > the case for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On > one hand, we want to honor the fact that we are capable people with > a life experience as rich and meaningful as someone else. We > believe that we can contribute to society and we want the > opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the same time, we want to > honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be seen as a people > with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a very > difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never > get it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. > > > > I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of > independence as it relates to all the topics discussed above. > > > > Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those > choices stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options > for ways to do something. Every situation is different and every > situation will dictate the manner in which something should be > done. Sometimes, it is best to get help. Sometimes, it is best to > do something on your own. You have to be equally prepared to do > either. If you are not, then it can be said that your choice making > ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then it is worth > your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively and > working on your own. > > > > If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the > situation is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. > In other words, you need to be in control of what help you receive > as only you will know how someone else's help will best accommodate > your needs. This technique also ensures that you are not defined by > the help you need, but are defined in instead by the contributions > you make with and without assistance. It is important to remember > though, that the people who help you are human beings. I find that > whatever you can do to break the ice helps to alleviate discomfort > and can reduce the amount of awkward between you and the person who > helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems including boundary > crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one who initiates > the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make pleasant > conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the help > I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who > helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any > information that I can provide that would make there helping me > easier, I provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product > is generally located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will > provide that information to make my helpers search easier. If there > is something that I can get for myself well my helper grabs > something else, I will if it means making the experience faster. A > lot of folks who have helped me say that they learn from me about > where we are and what we are doing that makes their job better in > the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade for the help they give me. > > > > If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with > unwanted assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all > of the time. I think we tend to believe that an interaction with > one of us will set the tone for how a sighted person feels about > all of us. I have learned to do away with this notion as I find it > puts more pressure on me then is helpful and necessary. I also find > that believe myself to be an ambassador for the blind creates an > invisible audience. Communication research tells us that people > tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there is and > audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel > like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, > autonomy is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or > not someone gets help, but whether or not somebody is able to make > a choice between getting help or not getting it. No matter how we > handle the situation, the reality is that sometimes, we can only do > our best and except it. And sometimes, our best may not be a > shining example of what could be possible for all kinds of reasons > that have nothing to do with blindness. > > > > Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means > let's roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away > with the notion that the individual who refuses help has a chip on > their shoulder. > > > > And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the > Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that > philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful > about stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach > to independence. I have found this to be less so than not. > > > > Respectfully, > > Jedi > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> > >> Good morning, Antonio, > >> > >> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my > experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see > and not so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding > their particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting > more help from sighted people than probably do you and your > Federationist peers. > >> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving > don't matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of > this, as well. Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that > tends to matter to them is that we do it. If you have a sighted > person help you, then so be it It doesn't matter, in the end. > >> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much > more fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some > usually abstract point about what blind people are able or unable > to do. In this way, blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I > walk sighted guide simply by grabbing a shoulder. This way, you > glide seamlessly over that awkward moment in which ol' Sighty and > you try to figure out who is supposed to grab who's arm.) I > appreciate how you said people need to travel in whichever way > works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are others > inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and > philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose > sight of this reality. > >> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: > >>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that > talks about independence as a core of our philosophy. > >>> > >>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how > they deal with the public will very likely determine how we > interact, how close friends we are, and how highly we might regard > that person in our social groups. > >>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We > may choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That > is okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle > said. If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating > through tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I > feel like dealing with the same environment on my own, > independently if you will, someone will have a perception of that. > >>> > >>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone > know matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports > on my own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance, > there is nothing wrong with my approach on either day. > >>> > >>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down > the stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to > lose my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me > over. I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn > it down, and will do so very firmly. > >>> > >>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, > pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great > opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. > >>> > >>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not > because they need to learn something, but because I need to get > somewhere, and quick. > >>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control > of how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe. > >>> > >>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with > traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction. > >>> > >>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried > about safety, I will be guided by Cain. > >>> > >>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences > between me, and the guy. > >>> > >>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with > males. She offered to help me, and explained her situation. She > guided me by Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she > wasn't in any spiritual trouble from that. > >>> > >>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave > matters. How we feel very safe from time to time, they today, > situation to situation. It changes with time also. > >>> > >>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you > think is the right way to interact with the blind, you could be > annoyed with something or another. > >>> > >>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, > and over, and over by different people at different places at > different times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure > how to think about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? > >>> > >>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away > from help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on. > >>> > >>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. > >>> > >>> Antonio > >>> > >>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato > wrote: > >>> > >>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then > what you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, > someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds > me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school > by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help > me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the > cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm > wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I > ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or > should I have done what I did, and politely said no? > >>>>> Thanks. > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Mar 5 03:12:30 2014 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:12:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140304183658.03fd6850@comcast.net> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20140304183658.03fd6850@comcast.net> Message-ID: And here's the deal about managing impressions of blind people: if a sighted person chooses to judge all of us based on one of us, then you can pretty well bet that said individual is pretty unwise and is one to stereotype in the first place. While this is certainly not a certainty, I have typically found it to be true. Not saying that these sorts are bad people. They just typically go through life without any sort of awareness about most things and blindness is just the tip of their unconscious iceberg. I have typically found that the kind of thoughtful people with whom I choose to spend my time are those who recognize that all people, regardless of group affiliation, are individuals though they have something in common with the members of the group. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 4, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Hi, Arielle and everyone, > > As more of a youngster, I used to think this premise carried with it more logic than it actually does. Of course, upon one's interacting with a single blind person then of course, that person would set the tambour of all future blind people. Yet, I think I have identified the reality in which individuals set the pace for themselves. Good discussion! > for today, Car > 408-209-3239 > > , > >> It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind >> person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree >> with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind >> people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me >> think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm >> negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups. >> I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with >> managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our >> own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive >> relationships with others around us. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> > Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely. >> > Thanks. >> > >> > Antonio >> > >> > On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Greetings. >> >> >> >> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce this >> >> message. >> >> >> >> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so >> >> complicated. >> >> >> >> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based on >> >> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about >> >> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who >> >> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently >> >> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis that >> >> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any task >> >> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their own, >> >> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further >> >> training. >> >> >> >> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is >> >> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. >> >> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much >> >> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more >> >> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more convenient >> >> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for someone. >> >> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case >> >> basis. >> >> >> >> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with >> >> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as >> >> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you take >> >> a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this thread >> >> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this >> >> concept of autonomy. >> >> >> >> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even though >> >> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and >> >> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when >> >> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person >> >> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a >> >> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the >> >> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves >> >> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of >> >> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided people >> >> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these >> >> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of autonomy >> >> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when they >> >> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound >> >> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the problem >> >> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations >> >> are both internal and external. >> >> >> >> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the case >> >> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we >> >> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience >> >> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can contribute >> >> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the >> >> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be >> >> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a >> >> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never get >> >> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. >> >> >> >> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence as >> >> it relates to all the topics discussed above. >> >> >> >> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices >> >> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to do >> >> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate >> >> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to get >> >> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be >> >> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that >> >> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then >> >> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively >> >> and working on your own. >> >> >> >> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the situation >> >> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, >> >> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know >> >> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique >> >> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are >> >> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without >> >> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help >> >> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice >> >> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward between >> >> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems >> >> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one >> >> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make >> >> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the >> >> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who >> >> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any >> >> information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, I >> >> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally >> >> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that >> >> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that I >> >> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it means >> >> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that >> >> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes >> >> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade >> >> for the help they give me. >> >> >> >> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with unwanted >> >> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I >> >> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the >> >> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to do >> >> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is >> >> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an ambassador >> >> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research tells >> >> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there >> >> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel >> >> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy >> >> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone gets >> >> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between getting >> >> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the reality >> >> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, >> >> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all >> >> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. >> >> >> >> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's >> >> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the notion >> >> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. >> >> >> >> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the >> >> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that >> >> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about >> >> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to >> >> independence. I have found this to be less so than not. >> >> >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Jedi >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Good morning, Antonio, >> >>> >> >>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my >> >>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not >> >>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their >> >>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help >> >>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >> >>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't >> >>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. >> >>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to >> >>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be >> >>> it It doesn't matter, in the end. >> >>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more >> >>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract >> >>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, >> >>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by >> >>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward >> >>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to >> >>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in >> >>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are >> >>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and >> >>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of >> >>> this reality. >> >>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >> >>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks >> >>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. >> >>>> >> >>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal >> >>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close >> >>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social >> >>>> groups. >> >>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >> >>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay >> >>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel >> >>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight >> >>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing >> >>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone >> >>>> will have a perception of that. >> >>>> >> >>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >> >>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, >> >>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing >> >>>> wrong with my approach on either day. >> >>>> >> >>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >> >>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my >> >>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may >> >>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and >> >>>> will do so very firmly. >> >>>> >> >>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling >> >>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to >> >>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >> >>>> >> >>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >> >>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and >> >>>> quick. >> >>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I >> >>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >> >>>> >> >>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a >> >>>> short distance guided by the cane direction. >> >>>> >> >>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, >> >>>> I will be guided by Cain. >> >>>> >> >>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between >> >>>> me, and the guy. >> >>>> >> >>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >> >>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, >> >>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual >> >>>> trouble from that. >> >>>> >> >>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How >> >>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. >> >>>> It changes with time also. >> >>>> >> >>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the >> >>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >> >>>> something or another. >> >>>> >> >>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >> >>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different >> >>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >> >>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >> >>>> >> >>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, >> >>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >> >>>> >> >>>> Antonio >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you >> >>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >> >>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >> >>>>>> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking >> >>>>>> cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with >> >>>>>> practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, >> >>>>>> getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. >> >>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In >> >>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done >> >>>>>> what I did, and politely said no? >> >>>>>> Thanks. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Mar 5 03:16:18 2014 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:16:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <94DDBFD0D5E44FEAAC5F0C39DD719103@robert9999b7cf> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> <94DDBFD0D5E44FEAAC5F0C39DD719103@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: <68B0D39A-4BAC-43F5-913A-0ED7140FC114@samobile.net> RJ, I presume you are talking about these sorts of discussions that are held at places like the Louisiana Center for the Blind. These types of training facilities believe that teaching blind people to blend in with others is part of the rehabilitation process. Each teacher and each center has a different idea of what that means. My idea of blending in tends to be a little more liberal than some. But that is typical of my attitudes generally and these attitudes reflect in the way I teach my students. But if you want a better put rationale for why these issues are addressed at a rehabilitation center such as LCB, you may want to consider reading Freedom for the Blind: The Secret Is Empowerment. It explains the five phases of good rehabilitation in the opinion of the author. Blending in is one of these phases. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 4, 2014, at 8:49 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > > Why do rehabilitation agencies feel blind people need social skills training? Isn't that the rehabilitation centers job? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:25 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > > >> Hi all, >> >> It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind >> person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree >> with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind >> people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me >> think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm >> negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups. >> I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with >> managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our >> own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive >> relationships with others around us. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >>> On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >>> Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely. >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Antonio >>> >>> On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings. >>>> >>>> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce this >>>> message. >>>> >>>> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so >>>> complicated. >>>> >>>> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based on >>>> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about >>>> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who >>>> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently >>>> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis that >>>> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any task >>>> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their own, >>>> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further >>>> training. >>>> >>>> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is >>>> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. >>>> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much >>>> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more >>>> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more convenient >>>> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for someone. >>>> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case >>>> basis. >>>> >>>> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with >>>> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as >>>> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you take >>>> a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this thread >>>> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this >>>> concept of autonomy. >>>> >>>> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even though >>>> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and >>>> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when >>>> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person >>>> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a >>>> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the >>>> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves >>>> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of >>>> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided people >>>> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these >>>> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of autonomy >>>> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when they >>>> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound >>>> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the problem >>>> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations >>>> are both internal and external. >>>> >>>> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the case >>>> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we >>>> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience >>>> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can contribute >>>> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the >>>> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be >>>> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a >>>> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never get >>>> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. >>>> >>>> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence as >>>> it relates to all the topics discussed above. >>>> >>>> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices >>>> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to do >>>> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate >>>> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to get >>>> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be >>>> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that >>>> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then >>>> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively >>>> and working on your own. >>>> >>>> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the situation >>>> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, >>>> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know >>>> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique >>>> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are >>>> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without >>>> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help >>>> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice >>>> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward between >>>> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems >>>> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one >>>> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make >>>> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the >>>> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who >>>> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any >>>> information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, I >>>> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally >>>> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that >>>> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that I >>>> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it means >>>> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that >>>> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes >>>> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade >>>> for the help they give me. >>>> >>>> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with unwanted >>>> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I >>>> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the >>>> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to do >>>> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is >>>> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an ambassador >>>> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research tells >>>> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there >>>> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel >>>> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy >>>> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone gets >>>> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between getting >>>> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the reality >>>> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, >>>> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all >>>> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. >>>> >>>> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's >>>> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the notion >>>> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. >>>> >>>> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the >>>> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that >>>> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about >>>> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to >>>> independence. I have found this to be less so than not. >>>> >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good morning, Antonio, >>>>> >>>>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my >>>>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not >>>>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their >>>>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help >>>>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >>>>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't >>>>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well. >>>>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to >>>>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be >>>>> it It doesn't matter, in the end. >>>>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more >>>>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract >>>>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, >>>>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by >>>>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward >>>>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to >>>>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in >>>>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are >>>>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and >>>>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of >>>>> this reality. >>>>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>>>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks >>>>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal >>>>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close >>>>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social >>>>>> groups. >>>>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >>>>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay >>>>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel >>>>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight >>>>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing >>>>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone >>>>>> will have a perception of that. >>>>>> >>>>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >>>>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own, >>>>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing >>>>>> wrong with my approach on either day. >>>>>> >>>>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >>>>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my >>>>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may >>>>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and >>>>>> will do so very firmly. >>>>>> >>>>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling >>>>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to >>>>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>>>>> >>>>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >>>>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and >>>>>> quick. >>>>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I >>>>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>>>>> >>>>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a >>>>>> short distance guided by the cane direction. >>>>>> >>>>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety, >>>>>> I will be guided by Cain. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between >>>>>> me, and the guy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >>>>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain, >>>>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual >>>>>> trouble from that. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How >>>>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation. >>>>>> It changes with time also. >>>>>> >>>>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the >>>>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >>>>>> something or another. >>>>>> >>>>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >>>>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different >>>>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >>>>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>>>>> >>>>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help, >>>>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>>>>> >>>>>> Antonio >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you >>>>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >>>>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >>>>>>>> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by taking >>>>>>>> cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with >>>>>>>> practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's door, >>>>>>>> getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. >>>>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In >>>>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done >>>>>>>> what I did, and politely said no? >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 05:22:19 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:22:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Message-ID: Hi all, OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they were ridiculous. When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were either effective or necessary. In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of social competence. Best, Arielle From malhajamy at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 05:40:22 2014 From: malhajamy at gmail.com (Mohamed) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:40:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Message-ID: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com> <7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net> <1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> <94DDBFD0D5E44FEAAC5F0C39DD719103@robert9999b7cf> <68B0D39A-4BAC-43F5-913A-0ED7140FC114@samobile.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140304223155.0406c0c8@comcast.net> I used to be all about "blending" in until it miandered across my understanding that, if this human experiment has room for everyone then, why not represent for the blind people? Why play an instrumental actor in the denial of blind people's right to "live" in the "world"?" I presume you are talking about these sorts of discussions that are held at places like the Louisiana Center for the Blind. These types of training facilities believe that teaching blind people to blend in with others is part of the rehabilitation process. Each teacher and each center has a different idea of what that means. My idea of blending in tends to be a little more liberal than some. But that is typical of my attitudes generally and these attitudes reflect in the way I teach my students. But if you want a better put rationale for why these issues are addressed at a rehabilitation center such as LCB, you may want to consider reading Freedom for the Blind: The Secret Is Empowerment. It explains the five phases of good rehabilitation in the opinion of the author. Blending in is one of these phases. >Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 4, 2014, at 8:49 PM, "RJ Sandefur" > wrote: > > > > Why do rehabilitation agencies feel blind people need social > skills training? Isn't that the rehabilitation centers job? RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" > > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > > > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind > >> person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree > >> with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind > >> people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me > >> think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm > >> negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups. > >> I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with > >> managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our > >> own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive > >> relationships with others around us. > >> > >> Best, > >> Arielle > >> > >>> On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > >>> Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely. > >>> Thanks. > >>> > >>> Antonio > >>> > >>> On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Greetings. > >>>> > >>>> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to > produce this > >>>> message. > >>>> > >>>> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so > >>>> complicated. > >>>> > >>>> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be > assessed based on > >>>> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about > >>>> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who > >>>> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently > >>>> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a > regular basis that > >>>> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said > for any task > >>>> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something > on their own, > >>>> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further > >>>> training. > >>>> > >>>> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is > >>>> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. > >>>> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much > >>>> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more > >>>> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more > convenient > >>>> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient > for someone. > >>>> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case > >>>> basis. > >>>> > >>>> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with > >>>> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as > >>>> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. > Whether you take > >>>> a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, > this thread > >>>> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this > >>>> concept of autonomy. > >>>> > >>>> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community > even though > >>>> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and > >>>> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when > >>>> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person > >>>> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a > >>>> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the > >>>> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would > find themselves > >>>> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. > How many of > >>>> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many > sided people > >>>> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these > >>>> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense > of autonomy > >>>> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed > with when they > >>>> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound > >>>> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, > the problem > >>>> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations > >>>> are both internal and external. > >>>> > >>>> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this > is the case > >>>> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we > >>>> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience > >>>> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can > contribute > >>>> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the > >>>> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be > >>>> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a > >>>> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we > will never get > >>>> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. > >>>> > >>>> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of > independence as > >>>> it relates to all the topics discussed above. > >>>> > >>>> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices > >>>> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options > for ways to do > >>>> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate > >>>> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is > best to get > >>>> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be > >>>> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that > >>>> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself > limited, then > >>>> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help > effectively > >>>> and working on your own. > >>>> > >>>> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate > the situation > >>>> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, > >>>> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know > >>>> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique > >>>> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are > >>>> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without > >>>> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help > >>>> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice > >>>> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of > awkward between > >>>> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems > >>>> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one > >>>> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make > >>>> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the > >>>> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who > >>>> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any > >>>> information that I can provide that would make there helping > me easier, I > >>>> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally > >>>> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that > >>>> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is > something that I > >>>> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will > if it means > >>>> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that > >>>> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes > >>>> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade > >>>> for the help they give me. > >>>> > >>>> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing > with unwanted > >>>> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I > >>>> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the > >>>> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have > learned to do > >>>> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is > >>>> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be > an ambassador > >>>> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication > research tells > >>>> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats > when there > >>>> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel > >>>> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy > >>>> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not > someone gets > >>>> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice > between getting > >>>> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, > the reality > >>>> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, > >>>> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all > >>>> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. > >>>> > >>>> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's > >>>> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with > the notion > >>>> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. > >>>> > >>>> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the > >>>> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that > >>>> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about > >>>> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to > >>>> independence. I have found this to be less so than not. > >>>> > >>>> Respectfully, > >>>> Jedi > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Good morning, Antonio, > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my > >>>>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not > >>>>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their > >>>>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help > >>>>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. > >>>>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't > >>>>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of > this, as well. > >>>>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to > >>>>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, > then so be > >>>>> it It doesn't matter, in the end. > >>>>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more > >>>>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some > usually abstract > >>>>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, > >>>>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted > guide simply by > >>>>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward > >>>>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to > >>>>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in > >>>>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about > blinks. There are > >>>>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and > >>>>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism > lose sight of > >>>>> this reality. > >>>>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: > >>>>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks > >>>>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and > how they deal > >>>>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close > >>>>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person > in our social > >>>>>> groups. > >>>>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may > >>>>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay > >>>>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle > said. If I feel > >>>>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight > >>>>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing > >>>>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you > will, someone > >>>>>> will have a perception of that. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know > >>>>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports > on my own, > >>>>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing > >>>>>> wrong with my approach on either day. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the > >>>>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my > >>>>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me > over. I may > >>>>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and > >>>>>> will do so very firmly. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling > >>>>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to > >>>>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because > >>>>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and > >>>>>> quick. > >>>>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing > control of how I > >>>>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with > traveling a > >>>>>> short distance guided by the cane direction. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried > about safety, > >>>>>> I will be guided by Cain. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural > differences between > >>>>>> me, and the guy. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She > >>>>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided > me by Cain, > >>>>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual > >>>>>> trouble from that. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How > >>>>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation > to situation. > >>>>>> It changes with time also. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you > think is the > >>>>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with > >>>>>> something or another. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and > >>>>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different > >>>>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think > >>>>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn > away from help, > >>>>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Antonio > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you > >>>>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone > >>>>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of > >>>>>>>> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to > school by taking > >>>>>>>> cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with > >>>>>>>> practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the > cab's door, > >>>>>>>> getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. > >>>>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask > for help? In > >>>>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done > >>>>>>>> what I did, and politely said no? > >>>>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 07:03:41 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 02:03:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga! I just wanted to tell you that I am always very talkative, and I always interact with people all the time! I always interacted with people when I was low vision, but I was actually sometimes shy and very timid to talk to people. However, when I became blind 6 years ago, I started to communicate with students and people more than before, since I was blind, the people always ask me if I needed any help, and I always say yes, but not all the time though, but then when they help me, I always started a conversation with them, and I started to be les shy, and timmid. In fact, I became totally blind in the second semester of my freshman year of high school, and I actually had an assistant when I was in high school, who was very nice with me, and who actually took my shyness away from me, and we actually became very good friends! She actually always when I was in high school, she always was pushing me to talk to more with the students than with her, and in that way I learned how to be more open with the other students and people! So now when she comes visit me here in Florida, I always tell her that she open up my shel! LOL!! Meaning that she took my shyness away! So you can call this having a very good Social skills even though you are blind, or maybe not! I'm glad to share a little bit of my life experience with you all here! I feel that you are very good friends to talk to, guys! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) P.S. If you want to talk to me more about my life experience, you can contact me off list ok? Only if you want of course! Thanks again! ;) -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga! I just wanted to tell you that I am always very talkative and I interact a lot with people since I was low vision, but I was actually very shy and timmid when I was talking to them! However, when I became blind 6 years ago, I started to interact more with students and people, more than before, since whenever I needed help, they always ask me if I need any help, and I actually answer yes, but not all the time though, but when they help me, I always started a conversation with them. In fact, I became totally blind in my second semester of my freshman year in high school, and I actually had an assistant when I was in high school who was very nice with me, and she actually took my shyness away, and we actually became very good friends! Actually, when I was in high school, she was always pushing me to talk to the students and the people more, more than talking just with her, and in that way, I learned how to communicate with students and people more than ever before! And whenever she comes visit me here in Florida, I always tell her that she open up my shell! LOL!! Meaning that she took my shyness away! So you can call this a very good Sociall skills even though you are blind, or maybe not! I'm very glad to share with you guys a little bit of my life experience. I actually feel that I can open my heart with you all here!, since I think you guys are very good friends to talk to! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) P.S. if you want to talk to me more about my life experience, you can contact me off list ok? Only if you want of course! Thanks again! ;) -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5628C7B8CA274862BCD82AD5F80C2AE7@Helga> Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga! I just wanted to tell you that I am always very talkative and I interact a lot with people since I was low vision, but I was actually very shy and timmid when I was talking to them! However, when I became blind 6 years ago, I started to interact more with students and people, more than before, since whenever I needed help, they always ask me if I need any help, and I actually answer yes, but not all the time though, but when they help me, I always started a conversation with them. In fact, I became totally blind in my second semester of my freshman year in high school, and I actually had an assistant when I was in high school who was very nice with me, and she actually took my shyness away, and we actually became very good friends! Actually, when I was in high school, she was always pushing me to talk to the students and the people more, more than talking just with her, and in that way, I learned how to communicate with students and people more than ever before! And whenever she comes visit me here in Florida, I always tell her that she open up my shell! LOL!! Meaning that she took my shyness away! So you can call this a very good Sociall skills even though you are blind, or maybe not! I'm very glad to share with you guys a little bit of my life experience. I actually feel that I can open my heart with you all here!, since I think you guys are very good friends to talk to! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) P.S. if you want to talk to me more about my life experience, you can contact me off list ok? Only if you want of course! Thanks again! ;) -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga! I just wanted to tell you that I am always very talkative and I interact a lot with people since I was low vision, but I was actually very shy and timmid when I was talking to them! However, when I became blind 6 years ago, I started to interact more with students and people, more than before, since whenever I needed help, they always ask me if I need any help, and I actually answer yes, but not all the time though, but when they help me, I always started a conversation with them. In fact, I became totally blind in my second semester of my freshman year in high school, and I actually had an assistant when I was in high school who was very nice with me, and she actually took my shyness away, and we actually became very good friends! Actually, when I was in high school, she was always pushing me to talk to the students and the people more, more than talking just with her, and in that way, I learned how to communicate with students and people more than ever before! And whenever she comes visit me here in Florida, I always tell her that she open up my shell! LOL!! Meaning that she took my shyness away! So you can call this a very good Sociall skills even though you are blind, or maybe not! I'm very glad to share with you guys a little bit of my life experience. I actually feel that I can open my heart with you all here!, since I think you guys are very good friends to talk to! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) P.S. if you want to talk to me more about my life experience, you can contact me off list ok? Only if you want of course! Thanks again! ;) -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <33C0971DC81E4E29B90D7D90CC4B1EDF@Helga> Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga! I just wanted to tell you that I am always very talkative and I interact a lot with people since I was low vision, but I was actually very shy and timmid when I was talking to them! However, when I became blind 6 years ago, I started to interact more with students and people, more than before, since whenever I needed help, they always ask me if I need any help, and I actually answer yes, but not all the time though, but when they help me, I always started a conversation with them. In fact, I became totally blind in my second semester of my freshman year in high school, and I actually had an assistant when I was in high school who was very nice with me, and she actually took my shyness away, and we actually became very good friends! Actually, when I was in high school, she was always pushing me to talk to the students and the people more, more than talking just with her, and in that way, I learned how to communicate with students and people more than ever before! And whenever she comes visit me here in Florida, I always tell her that she open up my shell! LOL!! Meaning that she took my shyness away! So you can call this a very good Sociall skills even though you are blind, or maybe not! I'm very glad to share with you guys a little bit of my life experience. I actually feel that I can open my heart with you all here!, since I think you guys are very good friends to talk to! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) P.S. if you want to talk to me more about my life experience, you can contact me off list ok? Only if you want of course! Thanks again! ;) -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <825879C944614FA88A0C04F221096FF1@Helga> Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga! I just wanted to tell you that I am always very talkative and I interact a lot with people since I was low vision, but I was actually very shy and timmid when I was talking to them! However, when I became blind 6 years ago, I started to interact more with students and people, more than before, since whenever I needed help, they always ask me if I need any help, and I actually answer yes, but not all the time though, but when they help me, I always started a conversation with them. In fact, I became totally blind in my second semester of my freshman year in high school, and I actually had an assistant when I was in high school who was very nice with me, and she actually took my shyness away, and we actually became very good friends! Actually, when I was in high school, she was always pushing me to talk to the students and the people more, more than talking just with her, and in that way, I learned how to communicate with students and people more than ever before! And whenever she comes visit me here in Florida, I always tell her that she open up my shell! LOL!! Meaning that she took my shyness away! So you can call this a very good Sociall skills even though you are blind, or maybe not! I'm very glad to share with you guys a little bit of my life experience. I actually feel that I can open my heart with you all here!, since I think you guys are very good friends to talk to! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) P.S. if you want to talk to me more about my life experience, you can contact me off list ok? Only if you want of course! Thanks again! ;) -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <685317794325474BA8AE61B18471B570@Helga> Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga! I just wanted to tell you that I am always very talkative and I interact a lot with people since I was low vision, but I was actually very shy and timmid when I was talking to them! However, when I became blind 6 years ago, I started to interact more with students and people, more than before, since whenever I needed help, they always ask me if I need any help, and I actually answer yes, but not all the time though, but when they help me, I always started a conversation with them. In fact, I became totally blind in my second semester of my freshman year in high school, and I actually had an assistant when I was in high school who was very nice with me, and she actually took my shyness away, and we actually became very good friends! Actually, when I was in high school, she was always pushing me to talk to the students and the people more, more than talking just with her, and in that way, I learned how to communicate with students and people more than ever before! And whenever she comes visit me here in Florida, I always tell her that she open up my shell! LOL!! Meaning that she took my shyness away! So you can call this a very good Sociall skills even though you are blind, or maybe not! I'm very glad to share with you guys a little bit of my life experience. I actually feel that I can open my heart with you all here!, since I think you guys are very good friends to talk to! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) P.S. if you want to talk to me more about my life experience, you can contact me off list ok? Only if you want of course! Thanks again! ;) -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:40 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Arielle Silverman What happened here? We got 6 copies of the message. ----- Original Message ----- From: Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: > Date: March 5, 2014 at 2:03:41 AM EST > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga! I just wanted to tell you that I am always very talkative, and I always interact with people all the time! I always interacted with people when I was low vision, but I was actually sometimes shy and very timid to talk to people. However, when I became blind 6 years ago, I started to communicate with students and people more than before, since I was blind, the people always ask me if I needed any help, and I always say yes, but not all the time though, but then when they help me, I always started a conversation with them, and I started to be les shy, and timmid. In fact, I became totally blind in the second semester of my freshman year of high school, and I actually had an assistant when I was in high school, who was very nice with me, and who actually took my shyness away from me, and we actually became very good friends! She actually always when I was in high school, she always was pushing me to talk to more with the students than with her, and in that way I learned how to be more open with the other students and people! So now when she comes visit me here in Florida, I always tell her that she open up my shel! LOL!! Meaning that she took my shyness away! So you can call this having a very good Social skills even though you are blind, or maybe not! I'm glad to share a little bit of my life experience with you all here! I feel that you are very good friends to talk to, guys! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) > P.S. If you want to talk to me more about my life experience, you can contact me off list ok? Only if you want of course! Thanks again! ;) > > -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed > Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:40 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and > always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been > normal. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:22:19 -0700 > Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Hi all, > > OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some > of my > experiences and controversial views on how blind people should > learn > social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, > but I > think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. > I > guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences > growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense > to > others besides me. > > I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted > person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by > myself. > When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and > want to > control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and > tried > to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I > would > go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical > affection, hugging, touching etc. > When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable > traits > linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of > my > blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP > throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social > skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For > example, > in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows > interest > in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle > school, > one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes > something". > I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to > tell > her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it > down > on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected > to > increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I > liked > and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her > a > good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where > I > could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't > understand > what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people > less > than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just > wasn't a > big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been > sighted, I > wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read > me > passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social > skills. > Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my > parents > had really expected her to do these things and she did even > though she > knew they were ridiculous. > When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it > seems > they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning > friends and > influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or > following > social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye > contact, > etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set > of > criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler > had > wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills > that > are much more important for having lasting relationships: things > like > sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other > people's > feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding > grudges. > There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible > social > skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people > can > learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other > people's > conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and > actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most > social > skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people > who > were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something > obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction > just > by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about > this > stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills > in > the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help > when > you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels > really > awkward and fake. > On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things > that > congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we > can > make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. > For > example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors > people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is > appropriate > for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the > right > to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind > folks are > labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that > they've > learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these > norms for > whatever reason. > I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately > using > blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally > was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic > person. > It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, > and > that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite > belong. > Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships > with > the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who > respect me, > and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I > learned > to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making > friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and > error. > I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but > I > also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a > textbook were either effective or necessary. > In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support > students in developing social skills--by giving them > opportunities to > make friends and have real social encounters--instead of > indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of > social competence. > > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com hi guys! I just wanted to tell u that this one was my original email message, not the other ones ok? Thanks and God bless!! :) From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 08:21:50 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:21:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <5316d9aa.089de00a.05fd.652a@mx.google.com> References: <5316d9aa.089de00a.05fd.652a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <6A009A27E2ED442DA37237F7F7E1C0CF@Helga> Hi Mohamed. My internet connection was not really working very well, untill my dad came to my room and he actually fix my connection, and then my screen reader told me that I have unsent messages in my outbox! But just to let you know, the one that I send the list now as forward message is actually the original message that I wrote before, not the other ones ok? Sorry!, sorry!, Sorry! about this mess!! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and GGod bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Mohamed Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 3:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness What happened here? We got 6 copies of the message. ----- Original Message ----- From: NFB Imaginators: The next NFB Imagination Fund telephone conference will take place Thursday, march 6, 2014 at 9PM eastern. Again, we will keep the call brief but informative. (Approximately 30 minutes.) Please take the time to read the following article in the March 2014 Braille Monitor at your convenience: Imagine Creating a Future Full of Opportunities for the Blind https://nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm14/bm1403/bm140312.htm The call in information is as follows: Dial-In Number: 877-394-5901 Access Code: 7719753 If you have not already provided your Imaginator Information, please complete the following and send it back to me at your earliest convenience. Imaginator Information Form Personal Contact Information Name: ______________________________ Address: ______________________________ City, State Zip: ______________________________ Telephone: ______________________________ Email: ______________________________ Twitter: ______________________________ Facebook: ______________________________ Donor Page Information Donation Keyword: _______________ (Note: must be between 1 and 10 characters, easy to remember, hard to misspell and not case sensitive) Fundraising Goal: $ (Note: Must be at least $1,000) Your personal Call to Action in 140 characters or less: (The default Call to Action: The NFB raises the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and their dreams. Blindness will not hold us back.) Attach a photo you would like to display on your mobile giving page, with a caption that will eventually be the text displayed in place of the photo for screen access software Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Director of Advocacy and Policy "Eliminating Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" http://www.nfb.org/fairwages NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org Twitter: @anillife The National Federation of the Blind needs your support to ensure blind children get an equal education; to connect blind veterans with the training and services they need; and to help seniors who are losing vision continue to live independent and fulfilling lives. To make a donation, please go to www.nfb.org From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Mar 5 15:33:38 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 08:33:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <531743D2.7080407@comcast.net> I agree with you on all the points you made, Arielle. Rehab is forcing me to go to a "social skills" mental health group because I think they are linking my blindness and the secondary disability c alled bipolar. They think I have poor social skills, but I am probably the most social in the group. But they limit topics, I'm sorry, but it's better for me if I tell them exactly what happened when I was little. My parents wanted the same things yours did. But they can't have that sort of thing. I have a loving boyfriend and some employment potential, but my boyfriend is like my coach. He always puts me first, never thinking that he's the one who comes first. Honestly, because of the social skills group, I'm being labeled by Rehab as having poor job skills. I've already adapted to blindness, and now I have to take a psych test. I'm afraid what the test might say, that I can't take care of myself, so I might need, according to the test, a guardian to do it for me. I can't afford a guardian because Blake, my boyfriend, wnats to marry me, like Jason did you. Arielle, the way people are sometimes makes me sick. You mention Adolf Hitler? Oh yeah, he had charisma all right, and look how many people paid for that. Six million Jews, plus disabled people inm the thousands in institutions such as Auschwitz. My God, I don't have that part down, maybe not, but I do know one thing I learned from girl scouting. A leader listens to the people who need the leading most. I would, if I were President, never think twice about raising the minimum wage for disabled workers. I'd mnake it so that a guardian is not needed for all of us, following the Jenny Hatch example of alternatives to guardianship. I'd illegalize guardianship for disabled people whose disability is manageable and can bring employment potential, and then I'd promote disability as an asset to employment. I would try and enforce laws banning discrimination against us disabled folks, and then I'd set a federal tax break up, even more so than Obama does. Obama is sighted, and he doesn't understand what it's really like to lose your rights. He doesn't get it. But I do. Rant over. Beth On 3/4/2014 10:22 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my > experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn > social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I > think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I > guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences > growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to > others besides me. > > I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted > person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. > When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to > control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried > to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would > go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical > affection, hugging, touching etc. > When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits > linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my > blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP > throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social > skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, > in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest > in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, > one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". > I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell > her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down > on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to > increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked > and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a > good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I > could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand > what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less > than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a > big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I > wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me > passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. > Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents > had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she > knew they were ridiculous. > When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems > they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and > influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following > social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, > etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of > criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had > wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that > are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like > sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's > feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. > There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social > skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can > learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's > conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and > actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social > skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who > were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something > obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just > by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this > stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in > the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when > you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really > awkward and fake. > On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that > congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can > make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For > example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors > people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate > for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right > to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are > labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've > learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for > whatever reason. > I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using > blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally > was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. > It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and > that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. > Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with > the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, > and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned > to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making > friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. > I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I > also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a > textbook were either effective or necessary. > In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support > students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to > make friends and have real social encounters--instead of > indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of > social competence. > > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:34:03 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:34:03 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Awesome service oppertunity for students (application deadline included) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0435D0E3-CD3B-4351-AAE1-C95CA58FDECA@gmail.com> > All: I’m reposting the below announcement for your information. Please note however application deadlines not included in prior post: applications for summer and fall opportunities close on April 1. I Believe start dates are mid-July for summer and early october for fall. Winter applications are being accepted starting April 1 and will close out on October 1. I believe start time is early February 2015. . > > > AmeriCorps > National Civilian Community Corps > Make a difference. Gain new skills. > Travel the country. > Want to give back while learning new skills? AmeriCorps NCCC could be > the perfect > opportunity for you to help communities, and get the experience of a > lifetime. We are looking for men and > women ages 18-24 who are enthusiastic and hard-working to join our team. > What is NCCC? > AmeriCorps National Civilian Community Corps (NCCC) is a full-time, team- > based residential service program for young adults who want to give back to > communities in need at different locations across the country. > For 10 months, you'll work on 4-6 projects such as: engaging youth; > building and rehabilitating homes for families in need; cleaning up parks, > streams, trails, and shorelines; fighting and preventing wildfires; and helping > communities recover from disasters. You'll be assigned to one of five campuses > across the country. > What you will get out of the experience: > * > The opportunity to travel across the country > * > Valuable skills to enhance your resume--such as leadership and team building > * > CPR, first aid, and disaster response training > * > Room, board, healthcare, uniform, and equipment > * > A living allowance of about $4,000 > * > The ability to defer qualified student loans > * > A Segal AmeriCorps Education Award of $5,645 to help pay for college, > graduate school, or pay back qualified student loans > * > The satisfaction of helping communities and making our country a better place > Join AmeriCorps NCCC today! > Apply at www.NationalService.gov or call 800-942-2677 (TTY 800-833-3722). > Follow us on Facebook at AmeriCorpsNCCC and Twitter @AmeriCorpsNCCC. > We offer service opportunities without regard to race, color, national > origin, disability, gender, sexual orientation, religion, > political affiliation, and other non-merit factors. > > > > > -- > Darian Smith > > > Text the word BLIND to 85944 to donate $10 to the NFB Imagination Fund > via your phone bill. > > The time is now to eliminate Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities > > http://www.nfb.org/fairwages > > > "We know not of our future, but we know of our past. A past that is > made up of our ancestor's Dreams, their stories and hopes. > These sights once seen, sounds heard and emotions felt are now our > knowledge. The knowledge that guides us to this very moment..." > -Darian Smith From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:37:31 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:37:31 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Another service opportunity for students (important deadlines included) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > All: I’m reposting the below announcement for your information. Please note however application deadlines not included in prior post: applications for summer and fall opportunities close on April 1. I Believe start dates are mid-July for summer and early october for fall. Winter applications are being accepted starting April 1 and will close out on October 1. I believe start time is early February 2015. . > > FEMA Corps: > AmeriCorps in Action > Make a difference when it > matters most with FEMA Corps. > Are you interested in a career in emergency management? Want to leave > your mark while learning new skills? FEMA Corps could be the perfect > opportunity for you to get experience, while helping others. We are looking > for men and women ages 18-24 to join our emergency management team. > What is FEMA Corps? > FEMA Corps is an NCCC track for young adults who want to gain > professional skills in emergency management > while serving with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) > staff on disaster response and recovery > efforts. It is a 10 month, full-time, team-based residential service > program that was developed in partnership with > FEMA and the Corporation for National and Community Service, the > agency that oversees AmeriCorps NCCC. > As a member, you'll be assigned to one of five NCCC campuses. Your > focus will solely > be on emergency management and long-term recovery activities within > FEMA. You'll > provide administrative and logistical support in areas that include: > Educating communities, assessing Working with nonprofits and > needs, and collecting information government agencies to coordinate > services for disaster survivors > Developing materials that promote > disaster preparation to the public Helping survivors complete > applications for disaster assistance > Ordering materials, tracking inventory, > loading supplies, and managing IT Assessing and reporting damage to > equipment public facilities > Updating electronic files, managing Setting up shelter operations and > data, and compiling reports re-unification of families and pets > What are the benefits of joining? > You'll receive all of the same benefits as traditional AmeriCorps NCCC > members, plus > additional training and experience to prepare you for a career in > emergency management > and related fields. You'll learn about working with communities, > public speaking, > customer service, and office/management skills while giving back and positively > impacting the lives of disaster survivors. > JOIN FEMA CORPS TODAY! > Apply at www.NationalService.gov or call 800-942-2677 (TTY 800-833-3722). > Follow us on Facebook at AmeriCorps NCCC and Twitter @AmeriCorpsNCCC. > We > offer service opportunities without regard to race, color, national > origin, disability, gender, sexual orientation, religion, > > > -- > Darian Smith > > > Text the word BLIND to 85944 to donate $10 to the NFB Imagination Fund > via your phone bill. > > The time is now to eliminate Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities > > http://www.nfb.org/fairwages > > > "We know not of our future, but we know of our past. A past that is > made up of our ancestor's Dreams, their stories and hopes. > These sights once seen, sounds heard and emotions felt are now our > knowledge. The knowledge that guides us to this very moment..." > -Darian Smith From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Mar 5 19:23:09 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:23:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] test In-Reply-To: <53169181.e45a440a.0ae3.7cc5@mx.google.com> References: <53169181.e45a440a.0ae3.7cc5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: got it -----Original Message----- From: Marissa Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:52 PM To: Nabsl Subject: [nabs-l] test just testing got a new apex and had to add the email again _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Wed Mar 5 21:07:36 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:07:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <78204EA3-9274-4978-9A80-B669E1B1F4CA@fuse.net> I completely agree with Ariel. Forcing blind students or anyone into being a social mold of what they want is just plain wrong and unethical. Maybe in encounters of social conflict discussing how a situation could have been better handled may be a better option. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:40 AM, Mohamed wrote: > > You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:22:19 -0700 > Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Hi all, > > OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my > experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn > social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I > think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I > guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences > growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to > others besides me. > > I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted > person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. > When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to > control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried > to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would > go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical > affection, hugging, touching etc. > When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits > linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my > blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP > throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social > skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, > in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest > in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, > one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". > I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell > her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down > on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to > increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked > and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a > good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I > could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand > what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less > than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a > big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I > wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me > passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. > Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents > had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she > knew they were ridiculous. > When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems > they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and > influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following > social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, > etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of > criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had > wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that > are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like > sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's > feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. > There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social > skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can > learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's > conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and > actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social > skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who > were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something > obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just > by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this > stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in > the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when > you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really > awkward and fake. > On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that > congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can > make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For > example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors > people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate > for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right > to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are > labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've > learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for > whatever reason. > I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using > blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally > was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. > It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and > that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. > Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with > the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, > and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned > to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making > friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. > I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I > also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a > textbook were either effective or necessary. > In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support > students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to > make friends and have real social encounters--instead of > indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of > social competence. > > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g > mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Mar 5 21:11:23 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:11:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about independence In-Reply-To: <94DDBFD0D5E44FEAAC5F0C39DD719103@robert9999b7cf> References: <53120091.a95f8c0a.0ee4.4193@mx.google.com><7CEE262F-74A7-45EB-9E5E-000B69A9B493@gmail.com><7.0.1.0.2.20140303102758.01ec0ce8@comcast.net><1A1A2B7A-9E5C-498F-8322-AF5BEAC33061@samobile.net> <94DDBFD0D5E44FEAAC5F0C39DD719103@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: RJ, I think it’s the job of everyone in a kid's life from teachers, to parents, to rehab teachers. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence Why do rehabilitation agencies feel blind people need social skills training? Isn't that the rehabilitation centers job? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence > Hi all, > > It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind > person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree > with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind > people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me > think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm > negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups. > I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with > managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our > own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive > relationships with others around us. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: >> Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely. >> Thanks. >> >> Antonio >> >> On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke >> wrote: >> >>> Greetings. >>> >>> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce >>> this >>> message. >>> >>> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so >>> complicated. >>> >>> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based >>> on >>> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about >>> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who >>> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently >>> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis >>> that >>> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any >>> task >>> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their >>> own, >>> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further >>> training. >>> >>> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is >>> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr. >>> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much >>> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more >>> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more >>> convenient >>> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for >>> someone. >>> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case >>> basis. >>> >>> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with >>> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as >>> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you >>> take >>> a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this >>> thread >>> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this >>> concept of autonomy. >>> >>> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even >>> though >>> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and >>> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when >>> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person >>> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a >>> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the >>> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find >>> themselves >>> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many >>> of >>> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided >>> people >>> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these >>> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of >>> autonomy >>> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when >>> they >>> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound >>> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the >>> problem >>> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations >>> are both internal and external. >>> >>> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the >>> case >>> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we >>> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience >>> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can >>> contribute >>> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the >>> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be >>> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a >>> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never >>> get >>> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. >>> >>> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence >>> as >>> it relates to all the topics discussed above. >>> >>> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices >>> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to >>> do >>> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate >>> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to >>> get >>> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be >>> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that >>> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, >>> then >>> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help >>> effectively >>> and working on your own. >>> >>> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the >>> situation >>> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words, >>> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know >>> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique >>> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are >>> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without >>> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help >>> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice >>> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward >>> between >>> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems >>> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one >>> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make >>> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the >>> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who >>> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any >>> information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, >>> I >>> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally >>> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that >>> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that >>> I >>> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it >>> means >>> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that >>> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes >>> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade >>> for the help they give me. >>> >>> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with >>> unwanted >>> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I >>> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the >>> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to >>> do >>> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is >>> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an >>> ambassador >>> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research >>> tells >>> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when >>> there >>> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel >>> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy >>> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone >>> gets >>> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between >>> getting >>> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the >>> reality >>> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes, >>> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all >>> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness. >>> >>> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's >>> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the >>> notion >>> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder. >>> >>> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the >>> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that >>> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about >>> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to >>> independence. I have found this to be less so than not. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good morning, Antonio, >>>> >>>> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my >>>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and not >>>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their >>>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help >>>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers. >>>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't >>>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as >>>> well. >>>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to >>>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so >>>> be >>>> it It doesn't matter, in the end. >>>> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more >>>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually >>>> abstract >>>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way, >>>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply >>>> by >>>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward >>>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to >>>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in >>>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There >>>> are >>>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and >>>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight >>>> of >>>> this reality. >>>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote: >>>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks >>>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy. >>>>> >>>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they >>>>> deal >>>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close >>>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our >>>>> social >>>>> groups. >>>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may >>>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay >>>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I >>>>> feel >>>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight >>>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing >>>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, >>>>> someone >>>>> will have a perception of that. >>>>> >>>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know >>>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my >>>>> own, >>>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing >>>>> wrong with my approach on either day. >>>>> >>>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the >>>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my >>>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I >>>>> may >>>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and >>>>> will do so very firmly. >>>>> >>>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling >>>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to >>>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide. >>>>> >>>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because >>>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and >>>>> quick. >>>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how >>>>> I >>>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe. >>>>> >>>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling >>>>> a >>>>> short distance guided by the cane direction. >>>>> >>>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about >>>>> safety, >>>>> I will be guided by Cain. >>>>> >>>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences >>>>> between >>>>> me, and the guy. >>>>> >>>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She >>>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by >>>>> Cain, >>>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual >>>>> trouble from that. >>>>> >>>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How >>>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to >>>>> situation. >>>>> It changes with time also. >>>>> >>>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is >>>>> the >>>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with >>>>> something or another. >>>>> >>>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and >>>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different >>>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think >>>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost? >>>>> >>>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from >>>>> help, >>>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on. >>>>> >>>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day. >>>>> >>>>> Antonio >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you >>>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier, someone >>>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds me of >>>>>>> something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school by >>>>>>> taking >>>>>>> cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help me with >>>>>>> practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's >>>>>>> door, >>>>>>> getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm wondering. >>>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done >>>>>>> what I did, and politely said no? >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From matt.dierckens at me.com Wed Mar 5 21:30:51 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 16:30:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <78204EA3-9274-4978-9A80-B669E1B1F4CA@fuse.net> References: <5316b8cf.8707e00a.2434.599b@mx.google.com> <78204EA3-9274-4978-9A80-B669E1B1F4CA@fuse.net> Message-ID: <06153060-C144-451D-AD16-0AE5741784B5@me.com> I agree with what has been said from Lily and Arielle. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:07 PM, Lillie Pennington wrote: > I completely agree with Ariel. Forcing blind students or anyone into being a social mold of what they want is just plain wrong and unethical. Maybe in encounters of social conflict discussing how a situation could have been better handled may be a better option. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:40 AM, Mohamed wrote: >> >> You a bit remind me of how I am. I'm a big technoligy guy, and always am trying to learn about new things. I've not really been normal. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:22:19 -0700 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness >> >> Hi all, >> >> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my >> experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn >> social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I >> think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I >> guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to >> others besides me. >> >> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to >> control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried >> to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would >> go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical >> affection, hugging, touching etc. >> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, >> in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest >> in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, >> one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". >> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell >> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down >> on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to >> increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked >> and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a >> good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I >> could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand >> what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less >> than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a >> big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. >> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents >> had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she >> knew they were ridiculous. >> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems >> they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and >> influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following >> social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, >> etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of >> criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had >> wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that >> are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like >> sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's >> feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. >> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social >> skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can >> learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's >> conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and >> actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social >> skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who >> were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something >> obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just >> by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this >> stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial >> interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in >> the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when >> you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really >> awkward and fake. >> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For >> example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors >> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate >> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right >> to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are >> labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've >> learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for >> whatever reason. >> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and >> that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with >> the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, >> and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned >> to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making >> friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. >> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >> textbook were either effective or necessary. >> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to >> make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >> social competence. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/malhajamy%40g >> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From nelsonsam68 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 22:02:38 2014 From: nelsonsam68 at gmail.com (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:02:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] e-mail list for those that are blind/vi and deal with mental illness Message-ID: <00f701cf38be$a03763c0$e0a62b40$@gmail.com> Hi. My name is Sam. I posted about this several months ago I believe it was during the summer. Time has gone by and I thought there might be new members to this list so thought I'd post again. I run a verysupportive e-mail list for anyone from teen years and older who is blind/vi and has any kind of mental illness/concern that they'd like support with in a peer community. In this group people can share about what's going on for them and make new friends who really understand the struggles of having a mental illness and also dealing with the added issues around blindness. People share resources and find it a very welcoming community. To subscribe send a blank e-mail to: blind-mentalhealth-subscribe at yahoogroups.com If you have any questions please e-mail me off list. Thank you. Hope you're all having a good day. Sam --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 22:22:40 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:22:40 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness References: Message-ID: thanks for sharing your experiences Arielle. In the case of little kids, some of the things concerning social skills have to be taught. But not in a phony or condescending way. Like turn taking and play behavior. that is when adult blind role models come in to play. I was a loner in school too. I had more social experiences during the summers with other blind kids. I did do the sleep overs and things like that. But that was it. I went to the prom by myself, I did many things by myself. sighted kids would see me as someone different and then get tired of me. then stop inviting me to things. Have a blessed day. Best, Melissa R Green and PJ Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 10:22 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Hi all, OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they were ridiculous. When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were either effective or necessary. In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of social competence. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Mar 5 23:37:55 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 16:37:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5317B553.6050208@comcast.net> I wasn't allowed prom because it had to do with dating, in my dear mother's eyes. Beth On 3/5/2014 3:22 PM, melissa Green wrote: > thanks for sharing your experiences Arielle. > In the case of little kids, some of the things concerning social skills have > to be taught. But not in a phony or condescending way. Like turn taking > and play behavior. that is when adult blind role models come in to play. > I was a loner in school too. I had more social experiences during the > summers with other blind kids. I did do the sleep overs and things like > that. But that was it. I went to the prom by myself, I did many things by > myself. sighted kids would see me as someone different and then get tired > of me. then stop inviting me to things. > Have a blessed day. > Best, > Melissa R Green and PJ > Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 10:22 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > > Hi all, > > OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my > experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn > social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I > think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I > guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences > growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to > others besides me. > > I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted > person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. > When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to > control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried > to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would > go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical > affection, hugging, touching etc. > When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits > linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my > blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP > throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social > skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, > in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest > in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, > one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". > I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell > her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down > on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to > increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked > and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a > good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I > could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand > what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less > than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a > big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I > wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me > passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. > Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents > had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she > knew they were ridiculous. > When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems > they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and > influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following > social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, > etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of > criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had > wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that > are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like > sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's > feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. > There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social > skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can > learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's > conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and > actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social > skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who > were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something > obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just > by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this > stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in > the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when > you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really > awkward and fake. > On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that > congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can > make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For > example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors > people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate > for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right > to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are > labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've > learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for > whatever reason. > I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using > blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally > was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. > It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and > that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. > Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with > the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, > and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned > to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making > friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. > I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I > also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a > textbook were either effective or necessary. > In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support > students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to > make friends and have real social encounters--instead of > indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of > social competence. > > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From mikgephart at icloud.com Thu Mar 6 00:02:35 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:02:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] e-mail list for those that are blind/vi and deal with mental illness In-Reply-To: <00f701cf38be$a03763c0$e0a62b40$@gmail.com> References: <00f701cf38be$a03763c0$e0a62b40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52B78773-9901-4D0A-81C1-12D7A463787E@icloud.com> I forwarded it to someone. Sent from my iPad On Mar 5, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi. > > My name is Sam. I posted about this several months ago I believe it was > during the summer. Time has gone by and I thought there might be new members > to this list so thought I'd post again. > > I run a verysupportive e-mail list for anyone from teen years and older > who is blind/vi and has any kind of mental illness/concern that they'd like > support with in a peer community. In this group people can share about > what's going on for them and make new friends who really understand the > struggles of having a mental illness and also dealing with the added issues > around blindness. People share resources and find it a very welcoming > community. > > To subscribe send a blank e-mail to: > blind-mentalhealth-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > If you have any questions please e-mail me off list. > > Thank you. Hope you're all having a good day. > > Sam > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From nelsonsam68 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 00:28:54 2014 From: nelsonsam68 at gmail.com (Sam Nelson) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:28:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] e-mail list for those that are blind/vi and deal with mental illness In-Reply-To: <52B78773-9901-4D0A-81C1-12D7A463787E@icloud.com> References: <00f701cf38be$a03763c0$e0a62b40$@gmail.com> <52B78773-9901-4D0A-81C1-12D7A463787E@icloud.com> Message-ID: <005301cf38d3$0f6e1040$2e4a30c0$@gmail.com> Hi MKayla, Thanks so much! Sam -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mikayla Gephart Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] e-mail list for those that are blind/vi and deal with mental illness I forwarded it to someone. Sent from my iPad On Mar 5, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Sam Nelson wrote: > Hi. > > My name is Sam. I posted about this several months ago I believe it > was during the summer. Time has gone by and I thought there might be > new members to this list so thought I'd post again. > > I run a verysupportive e-mail list for anyone from teen years and > older who is blind/vi and has any kind of mental illness/concern that > they'd like support with in a peer community. In this group people > can share about what's going on for them and make new friends who > really understand the struggles of having a mental illness and also > dealing with the added issues around blindness. People share resources > and find it a very welcoming community. > > To subscribe send a blank e-mail to: > blind-mentalhealth-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > If you have any questions please e-mail me off list. > > Thank you. Hope you're all having a good day. > > Sam > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40iclou > d.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam68%40gmail.com --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 00:49:26 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 19:49:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the relevant portion here: Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there is nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your business. I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than I do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be laid out. I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a conversation and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially true in crowded restaurants. Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as careless or clumsy as you. When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. I worked hard to be a tax payer. You can read the post in its entirety here: http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Hi all, OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they were ridiculous. When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were either effective or necessary. In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of social competence. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From dravant at ameritech.net Thu Mar 6 01:03:14 2014 From: dravant at ameritech.net (Denise Avant) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:03:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Focus 40 Blue for Sale Message-ID: I have the focus 40 blue for sale. It is a little older than a year old, in great condition as it has been little used, and comes with the carrying case from Executive Products. I have the original charger and cable as well. The focus 40 has 40 cells, cursor routing buttons and is made by Freedom Scientific. So of course it works very well with JAWS and also works well with Apple products. Asking $2000.00. Shipping and handling is included in the price. Reasons for selling is that I have one at work, and do not need two. If interested, e-mail me at dravant at ameritech.net. From ALewis at nfb.org Thu Mar 6 01:06:43 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:06:43 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Focus 40 Blue for Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13C79B02-56F2-4E2A-9A48-473FD7F66871@nfb.org> I will take it. Anil Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Denise Avant" wrote: > > > I have the focus 40 blue for sale. It is a little older than a year old, in great condition as it has been little used, and comes with the carrying case from Executive Products. I have the original charger and cable as well. The focus 40 has 40 cells, cursor routing buttons and is made by Freedom Scientific. So of course it works very well with JAWS and also works well with Apple products. Asking $2000.00. Shipping and handling is included in the price. Reasons for selling is that I have one at work, and do not need two. If interested, e-mail me at dravant at ameritech.net. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alewis%40nfb.org From ALewis at nfb.org Thu Mar 6 01:31:45 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 01:31:45 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Focus 40 Blue for Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <999AFE3D-1B72-4EB2-8EC4-B79052A6667B@nfb.org> Is it mine? Anil Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Denise Avant" wrote: > > > I have the focus 40 blue for sale. It is a little older than a year old, in great condition as it has been little used, and comes with the carrying case from Executive Products. I have the original charger and cable as well. The focus 40 has 40 cells, cursor routing buttons and is made by Freedom Scientific. So of course it works very well with JAWS and also works well with Apple products. Asking $2000.00. Shipping and handling is included in the price. Reasons for selling is that I have one at work, and do not need two. If interested, e-mail me at dravant at ameritech.net. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alewis%40nfb.org From dandrews at visi.com Thu Mar 6 01:33:29 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:33:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Blindmath] Screen Magnification Survey: Seeking Participation Message-ID: > >Hi all, > >I am a Ph.D. student at North Carolina State University researching >interaction techniques with screen magnification tools. I have created a >short 27 question survey on screen magnification usage and am in need of >participants. > >If you have a visual impairment and use (or have used) screen magnification >tools, taking this survey only takes a few minutes and could greatly >benefit my research. To participate, follow the link below to the survey: > >https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_QJ7vczMWNZfHWBsxAFjpYfXvyG_d8HsKW6WOsfG1z4/viewform > >Feel free to pass this survey around to your friends, colleagues, etc. The >more participation, the better. Any feedback from the community is welcome. > >Thanks! > >Kind regards, >Jeff Wilson From mikgephart at icloud.com Thu Mar 6 01:37:56 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:37:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Focus 40 Blue for Sale In-Reply-To: <999AFE3D-1B72-4EB2-8EC4-B79052A6667B@nfb.org> References: <999AFE3D-1B72-4EB2-8EC4-B79052A6667B@nfb.org> Message-ID: I think that you have to email her. Mikayla Sent from my iPad On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:31 PM, "Lewis, Anil" wrote: > Is it mine? > > Anil > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Denise Avant" wrote: >> >> >> I have the focus 40 blue for sale. It is a little older than a year old, in great condition as it has been little used, and comes with the carrying case from Executive Products. I have the original charger and cable as well. The focus 40 has 40 cells, cursor routing buttons and is made by Freedom Scientific. So of course it works very well with JAWS and also works well with Apple products. Asking $2000.00. Shipping and handling is included in the price. Reasons for selling is that I have one at work, and do not need two. If interested, e-mail me at dravant at ameritech.net. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alewis%40nfb.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 01:46:21 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:46:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Focus 40 Blue for Sale In-Reply-To: <999AFE3D-1B72-4EB2-8EC4-B79052A6667B@nfb.org> References: <999AFE3D-1B72-4EB2-8EC4-B79052A6667B@nfb.org> Message-ID: <006001cf38dd$e09961b0$a1cc2510$@gmail.com> Only if you pay for it. LOL. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lewis, Anil Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Focus 40 Blue for Sale Is it mine? Anil Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:05 PM, "Denise Avant" wrote: > > > I have the focus 40 blue for sale. It is a little older than a year old, in great condition as it has been little used, and comes with the carrying case from Executive Products. I have the original charger and cable as well. The focus 40 has 40 cells, cursor routing buttons and is made by Freedom Scientific. So of course it works very well with JAWS and also works well with Apple products. Asking $2000.00. Shipping and handling is included in the price. Reasons for selling is that I have one at work, and do not need two. If interested, e-mail me at dravant at ameritech.net. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alewis%40nfb.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 02:01:16 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 21:01:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> Dear Listers: Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my experience often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject with which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of independence for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever it's worth. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the relevant portion here: Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there is nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your business. I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than I do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be laid out. I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a conversation and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially true in crowded restaurants. Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as careless or clumsy as you. When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. I worked hard to be a tax payer. You can read the post in its entirety here: http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Hi all, OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they were ridiculous. When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were either effective or necessary. In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of social competence. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 02:21:40 2014 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 21:21:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72F23134-20D7-48F8-8A9B-64FCB5236D7D@gmail.com> Arielle, I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so many people a day since I was a more interverted person. Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. -Anjelina Sent from my iPad > On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi all, > > OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my > experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn > social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I > think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I > guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences > growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to > others besides me. > > I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted > person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. > When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to > control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried > to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would > go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical > affection, hugging, touching etc. > When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits > linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my > blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP > throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social > skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, > in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest > in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, > one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". > I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell > her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down > on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to > increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked > and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a > good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I > could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand > what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less > than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a > big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I > wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me > passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. > Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents > had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she > knew they were ridiculous. > When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems > they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and > influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following > social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, > etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of > criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had > wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that > are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like > sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's > feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. > There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social > skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can > learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's > conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and > actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social > skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who > were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something > obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just > by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this > stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in > the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when > you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really > awkward and fake. > On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that > congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can > make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For > example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors > people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate > for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right > to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are > labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've > learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for > whatever reason. > I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using > blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally > was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. > It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and > that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. > Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with > the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, > and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned > to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making > friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. > I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I > also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a > textbook were either effective or necessary. > In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support > students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to > make friends and have real social encounters--instead of > indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of > social competence. > > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Thu Mar 6 02:55:16 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:55:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in control of the situation. That is part of independence to me. Because of other health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public restaurant. I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a superstar, than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even cDoctor Jernigan walked with someone if it was more productive to do so. Independence does not mean one is a super human. If it does, I've failed many times and probably will never achieve it. And what does it say if you determination to do absolubely everything on your own, stops you from enjoying life or advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Dear Listers: Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my experience often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject with which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of independence for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever it's worth. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the relevant portion here: Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there is nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your business. I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than I do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be laid out. I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a conversation and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially true in crowded restaurants. Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as careless or clumsy as you. When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. I worked hard to be a tax payer. You can read the post in its entirety here: http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Hi all, OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they were ridiculous. When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were either effective or necessary. In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of social competence. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 02:56:17 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 19:56:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy Message-ID: Hi Joe, I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide dog traveler? While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to be courtesies. Best, Arielle On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: > Arielle, > I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I can't > add much to your well-written message except I went through similar > experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so many people a day > since I was a more interverted person. > Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic friendships > which are meaningful friendships are most important. > > > -Anjelina > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my >> experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn >> social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I >> think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I >> guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to >> others besides me. >> >> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to >> control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried >> to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would >> go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical >> affection, hugging, touching etc. >> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, >> in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest >> in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, >> one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". >> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell >> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down >> on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to >> increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked >> and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a >> good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I >> could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand >> what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less >> than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a >> big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. >> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents >> had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she >> knew they were ridiculous. >> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems >> they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and >> influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following >> social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, >> etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of >> criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had >> wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that >> are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like >> sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's >> feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. >> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social >> skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can >> learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's >> conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and >> actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social >> skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who >> were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something >> obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just >> by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this >> stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial >> interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in >> the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when >> you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really >> awkward and fake. >> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For >> example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors >> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate >> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right >> to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are >> labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've >> learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for >> whatever reason. >> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and >> that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with >> the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, >> and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned >> to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making >> friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. >> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >> textbook were either effective or necessary. >> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to >> make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >> social competence. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 03:03:13 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:03:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: <013a01cf38e8$9de0d780$d9a28680$@gmail.com> I don think you have to push your self to the limit of your abilities, and place yourself in situations where there are not buffet lines to deal with. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:55 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; jsoro620 at gmail.com Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in control of the situation. That is part of independence to me. Because of other health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public restaurant. I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a superstar, than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even cDoctor Jernigan walked with someone if it was more productive to do so. Independence does not mean one is a super human. If it does, I've failed many times and probably will never achieve it. And what does it say if you determination to do absolubely everything on your own, stops you from enjoying life or advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Dear Listers: Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my experience often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject with which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of independence for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever it's worth. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the relevant portion here: Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there is nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your business. I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than I do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be laid out. I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a conversation and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially true in crowded restaurants. Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as careless or clumsy as you. When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. I worked hard to be a tax payer. You can read the post in its entirety here: http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Hi all, OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they were ridiculous. When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were either effective or necessary. In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of social competence. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 03:03:47 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:03:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> However, just do the best you can, and enjoy yourself. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:55 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; jsoro620 at gmail.com Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in control of the situation. That is part of independence to me. Because of other health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public restaurant. I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a superstar, than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even cDoctor Jernigan walked with someone if it was more productive to do so. Independence does not mean one is a super human. If it does, I've failed many times and probably will never achieve it. And what does it say if you determination to do absolubely everything on your own, stops you from enjoying life or advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Dear Listers: Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my experience often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject with which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of independence for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever it's worth. Chris -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the relevant portion here: Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there is nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your business. I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than I do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be laid out. I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a conversation and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially true in crowded restaurants. Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as careless or clumsy as you. When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. I worked hard to be a tax payer. You can read the post in its entirety here: http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness Hi all, OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they were ridiculous. When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were either effective or necessary. In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of social competence. Best, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Mar 6 03:52:33 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:52:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another option may be to use a cane and or sited guide to get your food. I personally will carry my plate and either use my cane under my arm and either follow the person by using vision or by keeping up a conversation. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 5, 2014, at 10:03 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > However, just do the best you can, and enjoy yourself. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:55 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; > jsoro620 at gmail.com > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in control > of the situation. That is part of independence to me. Because of other > health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public restaurant. > > I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation > philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a superstar, > than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even cDoctor Jernigan > walked with someone if it was more productive to do so. Independence does > not mean one is a super human. If it does, I've failed many times and > probably will never achieve it. And what does it say if you determination > to do absolubely everything on your own, stops you from enjoying life or > advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing > list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Dear Listers: > > Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my experience > often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member > or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle > which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help > when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Mar 6 04:32:55 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:32:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sort of expanding on the social skills issue Message-ID: <7F5A8B0D-8E53-456F-B982-660EF7AF2CF0@fuse.net> Hi everyone. We are talking about social skills mainly with students and in some public situations. However, what about with teachers or parents? I have had a decent number of moments where I have had to be assertive, and I am still refining my skills. I am dealing with and I feel as if I am walking on a very thin line for handling. I have a new tvi who is new this year and is a little odd in his actions and word choices than I was used to. I guess I am referring to his personality although I guess that sounds rather rude and judgmental now that I think about it. Over the past few months he has done some things that me and some of my family thought was rather strange or out of place. He accused me of being lazy and taking shortcuts but could not give any reason or examples of why he felt this way. When I went on a school trip he asked questions that I thought standard to ask someone about a trip such as how long the bus ride was and then some stranger questions such as how long I knew each of my roommates and wrote all of my answers down. Today I had a confrontation about bap classes. He basically told me that he thought I as a blind person shouldn't take 4 ap classes, even though I had teacher recomendations for these classes. He decided to make an appointment with my counselor, him and myself and I have a feeling that this is on the agenda. I have been polite but firm in most of my dealings with him, such as I apreciate and understand your concern, but I think I will keep my schedule. Thank you for telling me how you feel. These situations are occurring more often, and I am struggling with what to do. Should I continue with my current tactic? He can tell me I am stupid or lazy all he wants and I would respectfully listen as long as long as he had even a single reason. I don't know what to do and I am sorry I'm complaining on a public listserve like this.Sent from my iPhone From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 04:45:31 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 21:45:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Sort of expanding on the social skills issue In-Reply-To: <7F5A8B0D-8E53-456F-B982-660EF7AF2CF0@fuse.net> References: <7F5A8B0D-8E53-456F-B982-660EF7AF2CF0@fuse.net> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, I am sorry you are having these issues. It is tricky to deal with the ignorance of people who are in authority over you, especially when you are still a teenager. If your TVI is a decent guy, he should listen to you if you calmly and politely explain your preferences. However, he may or may not take you seriously. If your parents agree with you, you may want to have your mom or dad call him and talk to him about how he is interfering with your success more than helping you. Blind students take multiple AP classes all the time and unless you took AP classes in the past that you weren't able to pass, he has no basis for talking you out of it. My guess is he probably doesn't want to spend the time preparing all your Braille materials for those classes, but that's not his right as a teacher to discourage you for his own benefit. You can also take this matter up with your guidance counselor or even the principal. The bottom line is your TVI is responsible for getting you Braille materials, not setting your schedule. You and your parents can also request an IEP meeting to discuss this stuff with him and with your teachers who are supporting you. Unfortunately, sometimes when we are young we just have to make the best of the situations we are in until we are old enough to get out of them. Bringing this thread full circle, my parents often admonished me for being "too independent" if I refused help. I didn't have blind adults to talk to and it took me a while to realize that I had the right to refuse "help" that made me feel uncomfortable. I hope we can offer you support as you deal with the barriers that other people sometimes put up in the name of trying to be helpful. Best, Arielle On 3/5/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > > > Hi everyone. We are talking about social skills mainly with students and in > some public situations. However, what about with teachers or parents? > I have had a decent number of moments where I have had to be assertive, and > I am still refining my skills. I am dealing with and I feel as if I am > walking on a very thin line for handling. I have a new tvi who is new this > year and is a little odd in his actions and word choices than I was used to. > I guess I am referring to his personality although I guess that sounds > rather rude and judgmental now that I think about it. > Over the past few months he has done some things that me and some of my > family thought was rather strange or out of place. He accused me of being > lazy and taking shortcuts but could not give any reason or examples of why > he felt this way. When I went on a school trip he asked questions that I > thought standard to ask someone about a trip such as how long the bus ride > was and then some stranger questions such as how long I knew each of my > roommates and wrote all of my answers down. > Today I had a confrontation about bap classes. He basically told me that he > thought I as a blind person shouldn't take 4 ap classes, even though I had > teacher recomendations for these classes. He decided to make an appointment > with my counselor, him and myself and I have a feeling that this is on the > agenda. I have been polite but firm in most of my dealings with him, such as > I apreciate and understand your concern, but I think I will keep my > schedule. Thank you for telling me how you feel. > These situations are occurring more often, and I am struggling with what to > do. Should I continue with my current tactic? He can tell me I am stupid or > lazy all he wants and I would respectfully listen as long as long as he had > even a single reason. I don't know what to do and I am sorry I'm complaining > on a public listserve like this.Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From filerime at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 04:51:40 2014 From: filerime at gmail.com (Elif Emir) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 23:51:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, This is a great topic to discuss. I'm a mental health counseling student who is about to graduate. Thus I'll talk from the mental health perspective. We have social anxiety disorder and avoidant personality sounds like just a little bit similar your experiences; however, the major difference is felled personal distress and distractive effects in your daily life. If you don't have enough social skills or courage to express yourself in a job interview, or a verbal presentation at work or class, this may be a problem for you. If you think this is disturbing, you can seek professional help. Otherwise this is just a personality trade. Every single person is unique, and has different skills. Furthermore, these disorders are not specific to the blind population. I didn't read any research talking about high prevalence among blinds. I have a sighted brother who is very introverted and my husband as well. I was always extraverted and still I'm the same. In my opinion blind kids can be taught about social skills. We don't observe people and sometimes don't know what is common. I learnt how important eye contact from the novels that I read. It was surprising for me. Then I started to turn my face to the person whom I'm talking to. Sighted kids learn these things implicitly during the daily life. So I believe talking about these kind of issues can be developmentally appropriate. On the other hand saying hello and putting a check mark seems artificial. It's also very deficit oriented. As a kid you feel you are wrong and you need to change yourself. This may lead the feeling of inferiority which is not helpful to be more social. We are not lab rats, so reinforcing the behavior is not the only way that we can learn. Just giving information is better. Supporting the personal positive points can be helpful to develop a better self-esteem. And high self-esteem is more helpful to feel more comfortable while interacting with others. Again this is valid for people who want to be more social. If the person is OK, so we as mental health professions don't do much. Furthermore, as you stated just saying hello to 1000 people is not the only social skill. Being a good listener, empathizing, and validating is more important to maintain a relationship. Maybe some sighted people initiate the relationships easier with the help of eye contact; however everyone has his or her unique style such as sometimes asking for help. 2014-03-05 22:03 GMT-05:00, justin williams : > However, just do the best you can, and enjoy yourself. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren > Wakefield > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:55 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; > jsoro620 at gmail.com > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in > control > of the situation. That is part of independence to me. Because of other > health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public restaurant. > > I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation > philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a superstar, > than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even cDoctor Jernigan > walked with someone if it was more productive to do so. Independence does > not mean one is a super human. If it does, I've failed many times and > probably will never achieve it. And what does it say if you determination > to do absolubely everything on your own, stops you from enjoying life or > advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing > list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Dear Listers: > > Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my > experience > often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member > or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle > which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help > when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it > alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject > with > which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of independence > for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted > counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on > ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," > some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted > colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a > buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should > that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever > it's > worth. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the > relevant portion here: > > Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. > Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there > is > nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the > risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making > the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There > are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand > inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its > edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living > classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could > also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your > business. > I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than > I > do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be > laid > out. > > I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of > pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with > someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a > conversation > and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would > rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth > continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially > true > in crowded restaurants. > > Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the > world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it > probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about > the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If > you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to > laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, > however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was > blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open > communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of > attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as > careless or clumsy as you. > > When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the > seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. > My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would > extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may > not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior > citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire > to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. > I worked hard to be a tax payer. > > You can read the post in its entirety here: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Hi all, > > OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my > experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social > skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is > important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also > curious > if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am > about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. > > I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As > a > child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. > When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to > control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to > interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my > room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, > touching etc. > When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked > back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had > poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and > middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with > evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get > graded > on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about > their > day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she > likes something". > I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her > how > many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her > clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over > time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this > teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report > every > day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and > classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. > If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was > because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. > Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She > also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social > skills. > Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had > really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew > they > were ridiculous. > When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems > they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and > influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social > conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what > Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning > friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I > think there are other social skills that are much more important for having > lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being > sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, > not holding grudges. > There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social > skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn > just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's > conversations, > talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of > close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by > becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me > if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about > social > interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading > about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the > long > term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the > real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. > On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that > congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make > informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, > of > course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear > together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. > the > movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So > often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills > when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not > to follow these norms for whatever reason. > I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using > blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to > turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. > It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that > I > was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. > Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the > friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I > try > to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to > this > place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real > discussions > with others and a lot of trial and error. > I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also > don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were > either effective or necessary. > In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in > developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and > have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons > based on a narrow definition of social competence. > > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 05:08:39 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:08:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: To clarify, I don't often get shy or experience social anxiety. When I was younger I wasn't afraid of social interaction. I just didn't really desire it or seek it out that much. When I did it was usually because adults or others wanted me to socialize rather than because I was motivated to do so. People often confuse introversion and shyness. Shyness is a fear or anxiety about talking to people. Introversion or extroversion is a personality trait that relates to how much social stimulation people prefer. Extroverted people thrive on social stimulation and find it energizing whereas introverts get tired if they are overstimulated socially. There are theories that certain parts of the brain are less sensitive to stimulation in extroverts than introverts. That's about the extent of my neuroscience knowledge, but there is a spectrum and being introverted is not dysfunctional. Being shy can become dysfunctional if it makes it difficult for someone to work with others or make friends. Everyone, including introverts, needs a little bit of social connection. I do think that social interaction with sighted kids can often be non-rewarding for blind kids, especially when kids are doing things that are not accessible, like playing certain kinds of sports, coloring etc. Efforts to make playgrounds more accessible would do more to build blind children's social skills than the textbooks or classes, in my opinion. I would also think that blind kids could learn about turn-taking, sharing and play by interacting verbally with others. Why does learning these things require sight? Of course, we have to be told about nonverbal things like eye contact that we can't see. But most of the social interaction that blind people will ultimately participate in is verbal in nature. And, let's not forget that sighted kids have to learn social skills too, and have to be explicitly told to do or not do a lot of things. That's why they call it "socialization" after all. Arielle On 3/5/14, Elif Emir wrote: > Hi all, > This is a great topic to discuss. I'm a mental health counseling > student who is about to graduate. Thus I'll talk from the mental > health perspective. > We have social anxiety disorder and avoidant personality sounds like > just a little bit similar your experiences; however, the major > difference is felled personal distress and distractive effects in your > daily life. > If you don't have enough social skills or courage to express yourself > in a job interview, or a verbal presentation at work or class, this > may be a problem for you. If you think this is disturbing, you can > seek professional help. Otherwise this is just a personality trade. > Every single person is unique, and has different skills. Furthermore, > these disorders are not specific to the blind population. I didn't > read any research talking about high prevalence among blinds. I have a > sighted brother who is very introverted and my husband as well. I was > always extraverted and still I'm the same. > In my opinion blind kids can be taught about social skills. We don't > observe people and sometimes don't know what is common. I learnt how > important eye contact from the novels that I read. It was surprising > for me. Then I started to turn my face to the person whom I'm talking > to. Sighted kids learn these things implicitly during the daily life. > So I believe talking about these kind of issues can be developmentally > appropriate. > On the other hand saying hello and putting a check mark seems > artificial. It's also very deficit oriented. As a kid you feel you are > wrong and you need to change yourself. This may lead the feeling of > inferiority which is not helpful to be more social. > We are not lab rats, so reinforcing the behavior is not the only way > that we can learn. Just giving information is better. Supporting the > personal positive points can be helpful to develop a better > self-esteem. And high self-esteem is more helpful to feel more > comfortable while interacting with others. Again this is valid for > people who want to be more social. If the person is OK, so we as > mental health professions don't do much. > Furthermore, as you stated just saying hello to 1000 people is not the > only social skill. Being a good listener, empathizing, and validating > is more important to maintain a relationship. Maybe some sighted > people initiate the relationships easier with the help of eye contact; > however everyone has his or her unique style such as sometimes asking > for help. > > > 2014-03-05 22:03 GMT-05:00, justin williams : >> However, just do the best you can, and enjoy yourself. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren >> Wakefield >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:55 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; >> jsoro620 at gmail.com >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness >> >> To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in >> control >> of the situation. That is part of independence to me. Because of other >> health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public restaurant. >> >> I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation >> philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a >> superstar, >> than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even cDoctor Jernigan >> walked with someone if it was more productive to do so. Independence >> does >> not mean one is a super human. If it does, I've failed many times and >> probably will never achieve it. And what does it say if you >> determination >> to do absolubely everything on your own, stops you from enjoying life or >> advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? >> >> Loren >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris >> Nusbaum >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness >> >> Dear Listers: >> >> Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my >> experience >> often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff >> member >> or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a >> principle >> which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help >> when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it >> alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject >> with >> which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of >> independence >> for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our >> sighted >> counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on >> ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be >> "independent," >> some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted >> colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a >> buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should >> that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever >> it's >> worth. >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness >> >> Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post >> the >> relevant portion here: >> >> Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. >> Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there >> is >> nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the >> risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and >> making >> the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There >> are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand >> inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around >> its >> edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent >> living >> classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you >> could >> also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your >> business. >> I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table >> than >> I >> do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be >> laid >> out. >> >> I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of >> pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking >> with >> someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a >> conversation >> and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I >> would >> rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth >> continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially >> true >> in crowded restaurants. >> >> Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of >> the >> world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it >> probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered >> about >> the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If >> you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to >> laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind >> person, >> however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was >> blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open >> communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of >> attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as >> careless or clumsy as you. >> >> When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the >> seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that >> counts. >> My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I >> would >> extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may >> not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior >> citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a >> desire >> to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful >> person. >> I worked hard to be a tax payer. >> >> You can read the post in its entirety here: >> >> http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness >> >> Hi all, >> >> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my >> experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn >> social >> skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it >> is >> important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also >> curious >> if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I >> am >> about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. >> >> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. >> As >> a >> child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to >> control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to >> interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to >> my >> room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, >> touching etc. >> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >> linked >> back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I >> had >> poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and >> middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with >> evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get >> graded >> on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about >> their >> day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >> she >> likes something". >> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her >> how >> many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her >> clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over >> time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this >> teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report >> every >> day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >> blindness. >> If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was >> because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with >> people. >> Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. >> She >> also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me >> social >> skills. >> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents >> had >> really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew >> they >> were ridiculous. >> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems >> they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and >> influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social >> conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what >> Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning >> friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. >> I >> think there are other social skills that are much more important for >> having >> lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being >> sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, >> not holding grudges. >> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social >> skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can >> learn >> just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's >> conversations, >> talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of >> close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by >> becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell >> me >> if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about >> social >> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading >> about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial >> interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the >> long >> term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in >> the >> real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. >> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make >> informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, >> of >> course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear >> together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. >> the >> movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. >> So >> often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills >> when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen >> not >> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to >> turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and >> that >> I >> was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with >> the >> friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I >> try >> to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to >> this >> place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real >> discussions >> with others and a lot of trial and error. >> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also >> don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were >> either effective or necessary. >> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students >> in >> developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends >> and >> have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons >> based on a narrow definition of social competence. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n >> et >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 07:17:16 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 02:17:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Special Type of phone Message-ID: <6E23D6D1-4B08-48E6-832A-AB545D83F521@gmail.com> Hi guys, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I have a friend who is on a wheel chair, who due to her illness, she can't really hold a phone with her right hand and she can't also can't move her left hand so well at all due to her illness. I can't really explain to you what her illness is, but just to let you know, she is not blind or visually impaired, she is actually sighted, but I would like to help her with this. I just wanted to ask you, what kind of phone, do you think a person who has this problem should get in order to write texts, emails, and answer calls easily? Do you think she should get an iPhone, or something like that? I'm just wondering, since I always talk to her on her home phone, and I ask her once, if she ever consider in getting an iPhone in order for me to text you, rather than just emailing you, and she tells me probably some day. Sometimes we email each other in order to talk, when ever we can't talk on the phone, but that is sometimes hard to do, since we go away from the computer! I will really like to hear your opinion about this, and if you could help me with this, and give me some suggestions regarding this in order for me to tell her, I will really appreciate it a lot!! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) P.S. Just to let you know, I told her that I'm a member of this list! and that I was going to ask this question here! Thanks again for all your help you can give! ;) Sent from my iPhone From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 08:59:48 2014 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 03:59:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Special Type of phone In-Reply-To: <6E23D6D1-4B08-48E6-832A-AB545D83F521@gmail.com> References: <6E23D6D1-4B08-48E6-832A-AB545D83F521@gmail.com> Message-ID: <24173ECB-B5AA-48DA-81D3-63E54246D276@gmail.com> I think she should get an iPhone and use switches. She can use switches either with her right hand, or with her head. The switch method of using an iPhone has improved drastically. Jewel Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 6, 2014, at 2:17 AM, Helga Schreiber wrote: > > Hi guys, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I have a friend who is on a wheel chair, who due to her illness, she can't really hold a phone with her right hand and she can't also can't move her left hand so well at all due to her illness. I can't really explain to you what her illness is, but just to let you know, she is not blind or visually impaired, she is actually sighted, but I would like to help her with this. I just wanted to ask you, what kind of phone, do you think a person who has this problem should get in order to write texts, emails, and answer calls easily? Do you think she should get an iPhone, or something like that? I'm just wondering, since I always talk to her on her home phone, and I ask her once, if she ever consider in getting an iPhone in order for me to text you, rather than just emailing you, and she tells me probably some day. Sometimes we email each other in order to talk, when ever we can't talk on the phone, but that is sometimes hard to do, since we go away from the computer! I will really like to hear your opinion about this, and if you could help me with this, and give me some suggestions regarding this in order for me to tell her, I will really appreciate it a lot!! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) > P.S. Just to let you know, I told her that I'm a member of this list! and that I was going to ask this question here! Thanks again for all your help you can give! ;) > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Thu Mar 6 13:06:38 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:06:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] tables in ms word Message-ID: <000001cf393c$e9409ae0$bbc1d0a0$@mediacombb.net> Hi all, I am using off 2010. I cannot figure out how to read the table that pop up some times in emails and in word. Any help with this basic questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Loren From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Mar 6 13:17:14 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:17:14 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140306051641.0404e300@comcast.net> Sing it, my blind sister, Loren! for today, Car 408-209-3239 07:03 PM 3/5/2014, justin williams wrote: >However, just do the best you can, and enjoy yourself. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:55 PM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; >jsoro620 at gmail.com >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > >To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in control >of the situation. That is part of independence to me. Because of other >health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public restaurant. > >I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation >philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a superstar, >than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even cDoctor Jernigan >walked with someone if it was more productive to do so. Independence does >not mean one is a super human. If it does, I've failed many times and >probably will never achieve it. And what does it say if you determination >to do absolubely everything on your own, stops you from enjoying life or >advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? > >Loren > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM >To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > >Dear Listers: > >Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my experience >often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member >or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle >which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help >when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it >alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject with >which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of independence >for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted >counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on >ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," >some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted >colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a >buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should >that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever it's >worth. > >Chris > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > >Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the >relevant portion here: > >Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. >Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there is >nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the >risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making >the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There >are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand >inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its >edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living >classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could >also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your business. >I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than I >do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be laid >out. > >I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of >pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with >someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a conversation >and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would >rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth >continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially true >in crowded restaurants. > >Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the >world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it >probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about >the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If >you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to >laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, >however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was >blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open >communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of >attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as >careless or clumsy as you. > >When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the >seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. >My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would >extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may >not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior >citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire >to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. >I worked hard to be a tax payer. > >You can read the post in its entirety here: > >http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me > >-- >Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >Visit my blog: >http://joeorozco.com/blog > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >Silverman >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > >Hi all, > >OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my >experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social >skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is >important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious >if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am >about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. > >I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a >child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to >control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to >interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my >room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, >touching etc. >When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked >back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had >poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and >middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with >evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded >on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their >day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she >likes something". >I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how >many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her >clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over >time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this >teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every >day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. >If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was >because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. >Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She >also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >skills. >Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had >really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they >were ridiculous. >When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems >they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and >influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social >conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what >Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning >friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >think there are other social skills that are much more important for having >lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being >sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, >not holding grudges. >There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social >skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn >just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, >talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of >close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by >becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me >if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading >about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial >interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long >term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the >real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. >On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make >informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of >course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear >together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the >movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So >often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills >when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >to follow these norms for whatever reason. >I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to >turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I >was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the >friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try >to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this >place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions >with others and a lot of trial and error. >I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also >don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were >either effective or necessary. >In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in >developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and >have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons >based on a narrow definition of social competence. > >Best, >Arielle > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >om > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n >et > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Mar 6 13:25:37 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 05:25:37 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140306052136.01c3d7e8@comcast.net> Good morning, Chris, Exactly! Why do people think, by virtue of their baing blind call for an actualization of super Blink? I mean, just take it easy. Each of us know what we can do and, remember ol' Sighty usually notices not how something is done. For example, he most likely won['t even notice of we load our own bufet plate. I wholeheartedly believe that, independence is knowing your limits and what makes the most sense given the particular circumstances of a situation. for today, Car 408-209-3239 At At 06:01 PM 3/5/2014, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >Dear Listers: > >Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my experience >often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member >or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle >which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help >when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it >alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject with >which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of independence >for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted >counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on >ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," >some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted >colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a >buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should >that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever it's >worth. > >Chris > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > >Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the >relevant portion here: > >Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. >Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there is >nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the >risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making >the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There >are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand >inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its >edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living >classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could >also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your business. >I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than I >do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be laid >out. > >I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of >pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with >someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a conversation >and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would >rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth >continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially true >in crowded restaurants. > >Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the >world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it >probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about >the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If >you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to >laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, >however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was >blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open >communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of >attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as >careless or clumsy as you. > >When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the >seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. >My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would >extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may >not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior >citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire >to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. >I worked hard to be a tax payer. > >You can read the post in its entirety here: > >http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me > >-- >Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >Visit my blog: >http://joeorozco.com/blog > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >Silverman >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > >Hi all, > >OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my >experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social >skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is >important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also curious >if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am >about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. > >I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As a >child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to >control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to >interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my >room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, >touching etc. >When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked >back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had >poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and >middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with >evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get graded >on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their >day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she >likes something". >I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her how >many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her >clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over >time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this >teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report every >day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. >If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was >because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. >Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She >also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >skills. >Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had >really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew they >were ridiculous. >When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems >they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and >influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social >conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what >Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning >friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >think there are other social skills that are much more important for having >lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being >sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, >not holding grudges. >There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social >skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn >just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's conversations, >talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of >close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by >becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me >if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading >about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial >interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the long >term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the >real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. >On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make >informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, of >course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear >together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. the >movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So >often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills >when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >to follow these norms for whatever reason. >I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to >turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that I >was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the >friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I try >to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to this >place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real discussions >with others and a lot of trial and error. >I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also >don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were >either effective or necessary. >In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in >developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and >have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons >based on a narrow definition of social competence. > >Best, >Arielle > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c >om > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 13:52:31 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 08:52:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Special Type of phone In-Reply-To: <24173ECB-B5AA-48DA-81D3-63E54246D276@gmail.com> References: <6E23D6D1-4B08-48E6-832A-AB545D83F521@gmail.com> <24173ECB-B5AA-48DA-81D3-63E54246D276@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey!! Jewel!, this is Helga! What are switches? And how does switches work in order for her to text, write emails, and receive calls easily? Just curious! Do you think she can use a bluetooth keyboard in order to do all these things? Just wondering as well!! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Jewel Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 3:59 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Special Type of phone I think she should get an iPhone and use switches. She can use switches either with her right hand, or with her head. The switch method of using an iPhone has improved drastically. Jewel Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 6, 2014, at 2:17 AM, Helga Schreiber > wrote: > > Hi guys, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I > have a friend who is on a wheel chair, who due to her illness, she can't > really hold a phone with her right hand and she can't also can't move her > left hand so well at all due to her illness. I can't really explain to you > what her illness is, but just to let you know, she is not blind or > visually impaired, she is actually sighted, but I would like to help her > with this. I just wanted to ask you, what kind of phone, do you think a > person who has this problem should get in order to write texts, emails, > and answer calls easily? Do you think she should get an iPhone, or > something like that? I'm just wondering, since I always talk to her on her > home phone, and I ask her once, if she ever consider in getting an iPhone > in order for me to text you, rather than just emailing you, and she tells > me probably some day. Sometimes we email each other in order to talk, when > ever we can't talk on the phone, but that is sometimes hard to do, since > we go away from the computer! I will really like to hear your opinion > about this, and if you could help me with this, and give me some > suggestions regarding this in order for me to tell her, I will really > appreciate it a lot!! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God > bless!! :) > P.S. Just to let you know, I told her that I'm a member of this list! and > that I was going to ask this question here! Thanks again for all your help > you can give! ;) > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 14:58:40 2014 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:58:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Special Type of phone In-Reply-To: References: <6E23D6D1-4B08-48E6-832A-AB545D83F521@gmail.com> <24173ECB-B5AA-48DA-81D3-63E54246D276@gmail.com> Message-ID: Switches are devices intended for people with limited movement. They are like light switches in that one way is on and the other is off. For example, one switch could allow a quadraplegic with limited use of one hand to flick the switch up for yes and down for no. Adding an additional switch gives further options, because one switch has two options but two switches give up to ten options, such as up up or up down up. I don't know the specifics of using switches with the iPhone, but you could probably Google it. But if she is able to manipulate a keyboard, that might be an easier option. However, she would have to press up to three keys at once for certain commands. What if she had a case that held her iPhone up on her wheelchair and she used one hand to do the gestures? All gestures can be done with one hand, and there is also accessibility features that make it easier for people with limited movement to substitute gestures. Also, she could use a blue tooth ear piece for making calls. Plantonics makes good ones that you can speak commands to and press the button to interact with Syri. Jewel Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 6, 2014, at 8:52 AM, wrote: > > Hey!! Jewel!, this is Helga! What are switches? And how does switches work in order for her to text, write emails, and receive calls easily? Just curious! Do you think she can use a bluetooth keyboard in order to do all these things? Just wondering as well!! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) > > -----Original Message----- From: Jewel > Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 3:59 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Special Type of phone > > I think she should get an iPhone and use switches. She can use switches either with her right hand, or with her head. The switch method of using an iPhone has improved drastically. > Jewel > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 6, 2014, at 2:17 AM, Helga Schreiber wrote: >> >> Hi guys, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I have a friend who is on a wheel chair, who due to her illness, she can't really hold a phone with her right hand and she can't also can't move her left hand so well at all due to her illness. I can't really explain to you what her illness is, but just to let you know, she is not blind or visually impaired, she is actually sighted, but I would like to help her with this. I just wanted to ask you, what kind of phone, do you think a person who has this problem should get in order to write texts, emails, and answer calls easily? Do you think she should get an iPhone, or something like that? I'm just wondering, since I always talk to her on her home phone, and I ask her once, if she ever consider in getting an iPhone in order for me to text you, rather than just emailing you, and she tells me probably some day. Sometimes we email each other in order to talk, when ever we can't talk on the phone, but that is sometimes hard to do, since we go away from the computer! I will really like to hear your opinion about this, and if you could help me with this, and give me some suggestions regarding this in order for me to tell her, I will really appreciate it a lot!! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) >> P.S. Just to let you know, I told her that I'm a member of this list! and that I was going to ask this question here! Thanks again for all your help you can give! ;) >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Thu Mar 6 15:06:36 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:06:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking STEM Students Message-ID: > >We have been asked to forward the following >announcement from Heather Pacheco > plese direct any questions to her: > > > > >My name is Heather Pacheco and I am a doctoral >candidate at Arizona State University in the >Science Education PhD program. My advisor and >Principal Investigator is Dr. Dale Baker. > >We are conducting a study involving science, >technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) >professionals with sensory and/or orthopedic >disabilities. We are gathering data about >experiences participants identify as integral to >their choice and participation in their STEM >careers as well as participants’ perspectives >about the role(s) assistive technologies have >played in these choices. Our goal is to >establish a fundamental knowledge base about >these experiences and the role(s) assistive >technologies have played in participants’ choice >and participation in their STEM careers. > >We are recruiting STEM professionals with >sensory and/or orthopedic disabilities to participate in >(1) a brief participant selection survey >(2) an interview that will be conducted by >phone, web-based video or in person. > >The survey will take 10 – 15 minutes to complete >and the interview will take approximately 30 >minutes to one hour. The interview will be >recorded and transcribed for analysis. If you >identify that you are using assistive >technologies that you have adapted to your >specific purposes, we will request a photo of >the technology if it is convenient and if you >are willing to provide a picture. Any photos >contributions should be of technology and not >include users. Photos will not be published; >they will be analyzed for trends across users. >This is not required for your participation in >the study. Your participation in this study is >completely voluntary. If you have questions >concerning the research study, please call me at (617) 417-4850. > >There are no known risks from taking part in >this study. Although there may be no direct >benefits to you, the possible benefits of your >participation in the research may be for current >and future students with sensory and/or >orthopedic disabilities with the potential to enter STEM fields. > >All information obtained in this study is >strictly confidential. The results of this >research study may be used in reports, >presentations, and publications, but the >researchers will not identify you. In order to >maintain confidentiality of participant records, >names on the initial survey will be converted >into codes, which will then be used throughout >the study. The name-code key will be stored on a >secure server. Audio recordings will be >transcribed and the digital copies of both the >recordings and the transcripts will be stored on >a secure server. Following the study, >recordings, notes and digital transcripts will >be deleted and paper transcripts and notes will be shredded. > >Participation in this study is completely >voluntary. It is okay for you to say no. Even if >you say yes now, you are free to say no later, >and withdraw from the study at any time. If you >choose to say no after the interview has begun, >audio recordings will not be converted to >transcripts and will instead be deleted immediately. > >Any questions you have concerning the research >study or your participation in the study, before >or after your consent, will be answered by >Heather Pacheco, Farmer Hall, Arizona State >University, (617) 417-4850, >hapachec at asu.edu or Dr. >Dale Baker, Farmer Hall Arizona State >University, (480)965-6067, dale.baker at asu.edu. > >If you have questions about your rights as a >subject / participant in this research, or if >you feel you have been placed at risk, you can >contact the Chair of Human Subjects >Institutional Review Board, through the ASU >Office of Research Integrity and Assurance, at (480) 965-6788. > >If you are interested and willing to participate >in this study, please reply to this >email. Replying to the email will be considered your consent to participate. > > >We greatly appreciate your time, > >Thank you, > >Dr. Dale Baker and Heather Pacheco > >Dale R. Baker >Professor of Science Education >Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science >Fellow of the American Educational Research Association >Affiliate of the Learning Sciences Institute >Arizona State University >Tempe, AZ 85281 >(480)965-6067 >Dale.baker at asu.edu > > >-- >Heather Pacheco, M.Ed > >2012-2014 APAcT IGERT Fellow >Graduate Student / Research Associate >Mary Lou Fulton Teachers College >Arizona State University >Tempe, AZ 85281 >Einstein Fellow Alumni >617-417-4850 > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3705/7134 - Release Date: 02/28/14 From sjhhirst at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 15:36:07 2014 From: sjhhirst at gmail.com (Stephanie H. DeLuca) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:36:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfb-science] Seeking STEM Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind. ~Louis Pasteur, lecture 1854 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Andrews Date: Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 9:06 AM Subject: [Nfb-science] Seeking STEM Students To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > We have been asked to forward the following announcement from Heather > Pacheco plese direct any questions to her: > > > > > My name is Heather Pacheco and I am a doctoral candidate at Arizona State > University in the Science Education PhD program. My advisor and Principal > Investigator is Dr. Dale Baker. > > We are conducting a study involving science, technology, engineering and > mathematics (STEM) professionals with sensory and/or orthopedic > disabilities. We are gathering data about experiences participants > identify as integral to their choice and participation in their STEM > careers as well as participants' perspectives about the role(s) assistive > technologies have played in these choices. Our goal is to establish a > fundamental knowledge base about these experiences and the role(s) > assistive technologies have played in participants' choice and > participation in their STEM careers. > > We are recruiting STEM professionals with sensory and/or orthopedic > disabilities to participate in > (1) a brief participant selection survey > (2) an interview that will be conducted by phone, web-based video or in > person. > > The survey will take 10 - 15 minutes to complete and the interview will > take approximately 30 minutes to one hour. The interview will be recorded > and transcribed for analysis. If you identify that you are using assistive > technologies that you have adapted to your specific purposes, we will > request a photo of the technology if it is convenient and if you are > willing to provide a picture. Any photos contributions should be of > technology and not include users. Photos will not be published; they will > be analyzed for trends across users. This is not required for your > participation in the study. Your participation in this study is completely > voluntary. If you have questions concerning the research study, please call > me at (617) 417-4850. > > There are no known risks from taking part in this study. Although there > may be no direct benefits to you, the possible benefits of your > participation in the research may be for current and future students with > sensory and/or orthopedic disabilities with the potential to enter STEM > fields. > > All information obtained in this study is strictly confidential. The > results of this research study may be used in reports, presentations, and > publications, but the researchers will not identify you. In order to > maintain confidentiality of participant records, names on the initial > survey will be converted into codes, which will then be used throughout the > study. The name-code key will be stored on a secure server. Audio > recordings will be transcribed and the digital copies of both the > recordings and the transcripts will be stored on a secure server. > Following the study, recordings, notes and digital transcripts will be > deleted and paper transcripts and notes will be shredded. > > Participation in this study is completely voluntary. It is okay for you to > say no. Even if you say yes now, you are free to say no later, and withdraw > from the study at any time. If you choose to say no after the interview > has begun, audio recordings will not be converted to transcripts and will > instead be deleted immediately. > > Any questions you have concerning the research study or your participation > in the study, before or after your consent, will be answered by Heather > Pacheco, Farmer Hall, Arizona State University, (617) 417-4850, hapachec at asu.edu>hapachec at asu.edu or Dr. Dale Baker, Farmer Hall Arizona > State University, (480)965-6067, dal > e.baker at asu.edu. > > If you have questions about your rights as a subject / participant in this > research, or if you feel you have been placed at risk, you can contact the > Chair of Human Subjects Institutional Review Board, through the ASU Office > of Research Integrity and Assurance, at (480) 965-6788. > > If you are interested and willing to participate in this study, please > reply to this email. Replying to the email will be considered your consent > to participate. > > > We greatly appreciate your time, > > Thank you, > > Dr. Dale Baker and Heather Pacheco > > Dale R. Baker > Professor of Science Education > Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science > Fellow of the American Educational Research Association > Affiliate of the Learning Sciences Institute > Arizona State University > Tempe, AZ 85281 > (480)965-6067 > Dale.baker at asu.edu > > > -- > Heather Pacheco, M.Ed > > 2012-2014 APAcT IGERT Fellow > Graduate Student / Research Associate > Mary Lou Fulton Teachers College > Arizona State University > Tempe, AZ 85281 > Einstein Fellow Alumni > 617-417-4850 > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3705/7134 - Release Date: 02/28/14 > _______________________________________________ Nfb-science mailing list Nfb-science at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-science_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nfb-science: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-science_nfbnet. org/sjhhirst%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Mar 6 18:02:54 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:02:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One reason to offer the seat on the bus is if the person needs the bus driver to let them know where the stop is. My O&M instructor said to always sit at the front across from the driver if you need the bus driver to remember. He also said do not fold my cane to make sure the driver still sees it. Otherwise they will forget to tell you your stop. If I am going somewhere new and the bus does not have audible announcements, I will ask the driver to let me know my stop. On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Joe, > > I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in > there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. > You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the > bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer > down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were sighted > you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. > I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies for > blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a blind > person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a courtesy > that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing something? Is > receiving a seat near the door something that addresses > blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide > dog traveler? > While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually > because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back > seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally point > out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. > Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, > I'd find such treatment insulting. > > I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer > anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people > offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual > things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, > such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have > questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather > they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my > preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to be > courtesies. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: > > Arielle, > > I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I > can't > > add much to your well-written message except I went through similar > > experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so many people a > day > > since I was a more interverted person. > > Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic friendships > > which are meaningful friendships are most important. > > > > > > -Anjelina > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my > >> experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn > >> social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I > >> think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I > >> guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences > >> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to > >> others besides me. > >> > >> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted > >> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. > >> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to > >> control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried > >> to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would > >> go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical > >> affection, hugging, touching etc. > >> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits > >> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my > >> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP > >> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social > >> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, > >> in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest > >> in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, > >> one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". > >> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell > >> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down > >> on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to > >> increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked > >> and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a > >> good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I > >> could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand > >> what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less > >> than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a > >> big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I > >> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me > >> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. > >> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents > >> had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she > >> knew they were ridiculous. > >> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems > >> they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and > >> influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following > >> social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, > >> etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of > >> criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had > >> wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that > >> are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like > >> sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's > >> feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. > >> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social > >> skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can > >> learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's > >> conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and > >> actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social > >> skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who > >> were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something > >> obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just > >> by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this > >> stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > >> interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in > >> the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when > >> you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really > >> awkward and fake. > >> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that > >> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can > >> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For > >> example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors > >> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate > >> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right > >> to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are > >> labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've > >> learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for > >> whatever reason. > >> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using > >> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally > >> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. > >> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and > >> that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. > >> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with > >> the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, > >> and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned > >> to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making > >> friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. > >> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I > >> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a > >> textbook were either effective or necessary. > >> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support > >> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to > >> make friends and have real social encounters--instead of > >> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of > >> social competence. > >> > >> Best, > >> Arielle > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Mar 6 18:07:55 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:07:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have enough vision to serve myself at the buffet line but I still ask someone what each of the food items is because I cannot tell. I don't think asking for help takes away from independence. If I can get a ride somewhere and save myself two hours of bus I am going to do it. I know I can do it, I have done itso I dont' feel any less independent getting a ride form my fiance or daughter. I do think it is a waste of my time taking 4.5 hours per day to ride the bus to and from school. On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 8:03 PM, justin williams wrote: > However, just do the best you can, and enjoy yourself. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren > Wakefield > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:55 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; > jsoro620 at gmail.com > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in > control > of the situation. That is part of independence to me. Because of other > health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public restaurant. > > I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation > philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a superstar, > than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even cDoctor Jernigan > walked with someone if it was more productive to do so. Independence does > not mean one is a super human. If it does, I've failed many times and > probably will never achieve it. And what does it say if you determination > to do absolubely everything on your own, stops you from enjoying life or > advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing > list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Dear Listers: > > Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my > experience > often ask someone else to load their plate for them, whether a staff member > or another person with whom they are eating. This, in fact, is a principle > which sighted people tend to follow in many situations--they ask for help > when that would best serve their needs at any given time, and they go it > alone when that is preferred. I often wonder then why this is a subject > with > which our community struggles as much as we do. The object of independence > for us, I believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted > counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations on > ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," > some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted > colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a > buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, should > that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for whatever > it's > worth. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post the > relevant portion here: > > Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. > Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion there > is > nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and running the > risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing yourself and making > the other guests feel dubious about where your fingers may've been. There > are methods to handling such tasks of course. You could move your hand > inward over the table surface, find the rim of the dish and move around its > edge until you find the utensil. I paid attention in my independent living > classes. Yet independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could > also just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your > business. > I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table than > I > do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes should be > laid > out. > > I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of > pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking with > someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a > conversation > and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In some cases I would > rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to ensure the smooth > continuity of both our conversation and our journey. This is especially > true > in crowded restaurants. > > Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of the > world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be told it > probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I wondered about > the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the rip in my jeans. If > you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you would attribute it to > laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you saw this on a blind person, > however, your first thought might be that it was because the person was > blind. I'd like you to point it out to me in the spirit of open > communication. No one likes to walk around attracting the wrong kind of > attention, but don't be surprised to discover that I can be every bit as > careless or clumsy as you. > > When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me the > seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. > My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I would > extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that end, I may > not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies offered to senior > citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, chalk it up to a desire > to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. > I worked hard to be a tax payer. > > You can read the post in its entirety here: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Hi all, > > OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my > experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn social > skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I think it is > important enough to bear repeating every few years. I guess I'm also > curious > if any of you have had similar experiences growing up or if the things I am > about to advocate make any sense to others besides me. > > I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted person. As > a > child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. > When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to > control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried to > interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would go to my > room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, > touching etc. > When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits linked > back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my blindness I had > poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP throughout elementary and > middle school that dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with > evaluating my progress. For example, in elementary school I would get > graded > on goals like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about > their > day". In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she > likes something". > I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell her > how > many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down on her > clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to increase over > time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked and respected this > teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a good compliment report > every > day, by contriving situations where I could compliment my family and > classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. > If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it was > because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. > Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She > also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social > skills. > Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents had > really expected her to do these things and she did even though she knew > they > were ridiculous. > When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems > they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and > influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following social > conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, etc. (what > Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of criteria, winning > friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I > think there are other social skills that are much more important for having > lasting relationships: things like sharing, helping others in need, being > sensitive to other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, > not holding grudges. > There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social > skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can learn > just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's > conversations, > talking about issues going on in the world, and actually being a part of > close relationships. I think the most social skills I ever learned was by > becoming friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me > if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about > social > interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading > about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in the > long > term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when you're out in the > real world and the thing you practiced feels really awkward and fake. > On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that > congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can make > informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For example, > of > course blind folks should be told about which colors people usually wear > together or what kind of clothing is appropriate for a job interview vs. > the > movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So > often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills > when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not > to follow these norms for whatever reason. > I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using > blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally was--to > turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. > It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and that > I > was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. > Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with the > friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, and I > try > to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned to get me to > this > place came from my firsthand experiences making friends, my real > discussions > with others and a lot of trial and error. > I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I also > don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a textbook were > either effective or necessary. > In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support students in > developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to make friends and > have real social encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons > based on a narrow definition of social competence. > > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 20:09:05 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:09:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cf38d5$ecbc32e0$c63498a0$@gmail.com> <006101cf38df$f64f2c40$e2ed84c0$@gmail.com> <000001cf38e7$81366420$83a32c60$@mediacombb.net> <013b01cf38e8$b1f86d50$15e947f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01cf3977$edccb0e0$c96612a0$@gmail.com> I just had help from someone to drive me back to my house because I left my power cord. I could have called a cab to do it, but it would have cost me another 12 to 14 dollars. If there was no one around, then I would have done so, but I used the best and quickest option. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 1:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness I have enough vision to serve myself at the buffet line but I still ask someone what each of the food items is because I cannot tell. I don't think asking for help takes away from independence. If I can get a ride somewhere and save myself two hours of bus I am going to do it. I know I can do it, I have done itso I dont' feel any less independent getting a ride form my fiance or daughter. I do think it is a waste of my time taking 4.5 hours per day to ride the bus to and from school. On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 8:03 PM, justin williams wrote: > However, just do the best you can, and enjoy yourself. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren > Wakefield > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:55 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; > jsoro620 at gmail.com > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > To me, if I ask someone to help with the buffett, than I am still in > control of the situation. That is part of independence to me. > Because of other health issues, I seldom carry my plate in a public > restaurant. > > I think that sometimes a le dysfunction of the wonderful federation > philosophy is that it makes one feel like if he or she is not a > superstar, than you are letting down other blind individuals. Even > cDoctor Jernigan walked with someone if it was more productive to do > so. Independence does not mean one is a super human. If it does, > I've failed many times and probably will never achieve it. And what > does it say if you determination to do absolubely everything on your > own, stops you from enjoying life or advancing in your career? Doesn't that dreffeat the purpose? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris > Nusbaum > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 8:01 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students > mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Dear Listers: > > Joe, very well said. Regarding buffet lines, sighted people in my > experience often ask someone else to load their plate for them, > whether a staff member or another person with whom they are eating. > This, in fact, is a principle which sighted people tend to follow in > many situations--they ask for help when that would best serve their > needs at any given time, and they go it alone when that is preferred. > I often wonder then why this is a subject with which our community > struggles as much as we do. The object of independence for us, I > believe, is to function on a level similar to that of our sighted > counterparts. If this is true, are we placing unrealistic expectations > on ourselves and others? It seems to me that in striving to be "independent," > some of us expect ourselves to be *more* independent than our sighted > colleagues. If sighted people ask for someone to load their plate in a > buffet, why oughtn't we? Because we are blind and Federationists, > should that make us super-independent? Just some food for thought for > whatever it's worth. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:49 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Excellent post, Arielle. I wrote on this subject in my blog. I'll post > the relevant portion here: > > Speaking for myself, I don't really look forward to buffet lines. > Independence is partially about looking graceful, and in my opinion > there is nothing graceful about feeling around for serving spoons and > running the risk of dipping a finger in the casserole, embarrassing > yourself and making the other guests feel dubious about where your > fingers may've been. There are methods to handling such tasks of > course. You could move your hand inward over the table surface, find > the rim of the dish and move around its edge until you find the > utensil. I paid attention in my independent living classes. Yet > independence is also about seizing conveniences, so you could also > just ask someone to help load your plate and go on about your > business. > I feel far more confident about carrying a tray and drink to my table > than I do about navigating someone else's logic about the way dishes > should be laid out. > > I walk fast when I walk alone. In fact I experience my own version of > pedestrian's sidewalk rage, but I feel slow and stumbling when walking > with someone else because my attention is divided between carrying a > conversation and stopping myself from colliding with a lamp post. In > some cases I would rather walk with a hand on the person's elbow to > ensure the smooth continuity of both our conversation and our journey. > This is especially true in crowded restaurants. > > Something else that comes to mind is my attitude about how the rest of > the world perceives me. As I grow older it matters less. If truth be > told it probably never mattered enough, but there was a point when I > wondered about the stain on my shirt or the syrup on my cheek or the > rip in my jeans. If you saw either on a fellow sighted person, you > would attribute it to laziness or wouldn't think of it at all. If you > saw this on a blind person, however, your first thought might be that > it was because the person was blind. I'd like you to point it out to > me in the spirit of open communication. No one likes to walk around > attracting the wrong kind of attention, but don't be surprised to > discover that I can be every bit as careless or clumsy as you. > > When you see me board a train or bus, it'd be nice if you offered me > the seat near the door. I will turn you down, but it's the thought that counts. > My independence will not be threatened by the same type of courtesy I > would extend if I were sighted and came upon a blind person. To that > end, I may not always take advantage of the discounts and freebies > offered to senior citizens and persons with disabilities. If I don't, > chalk it up to a desire to equally contribute to society and not because I am an ungrateful person. > I worked hard to be a tax payer. > > You can read the post in its entirety here: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog_facts_about_blindness_according_to_me > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Social skills and blindness > > Hi all, > > OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of my > experiences and controversial views on how blind people should learn > social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, but I > think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. I > guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences > growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to > others besides me. > > I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted > person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. > When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to > control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried > to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would > go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical > affection, hugging, touching etc. > When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits > linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my > blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP > throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social > skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For example, > in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows interest > in other children" or "asks others about their day". In middle school, > one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". > I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell > her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down > on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to > increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked > and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a > good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I > could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand > what this had to do with my blindness. > If I complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it > was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. > Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. > She also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach > me social skills. > Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my parents > had really expected her to do these things and she did even though she > knew they were ridiculous. > When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems > they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends and > influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or following > social conventions like being places on time, attempting eye contact, > etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the first set of > criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf Hitler had > wonderful social skills. I think there are other social skills that > are much more important for having lasting relationships: things like > sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other people's > feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. > There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible social > skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind people can > learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other people's > conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, and > actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most social > skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind people who > were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing something > obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social interaction just > by listening, talking and sharing with others. Reading about this > stuff in a book, or being required to engage in artificial > interactions with others, doesn't help build these social skills in > the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't help when > you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced feels really > awkward and fake. > On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that > congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can > make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For > example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors > people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate > for a job interview vs. > the > movies. But then, we still have the right to choose to blend in or > not. So often it seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor > social skills when the fact is that they've learned what is > "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. > I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using > blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally > was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. > It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and > that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. > Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships with > the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who respect me, > and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the things I learned > to get me to this place came from my firsthand experiences making > friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. > I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I > also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a > textbook were either effective or necessary. > In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support > students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to > make friends and have real social encounters--instead of > indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of social competence. > > Best, > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40g > mail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediac > ombb.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 21:49:54 2014 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel and Stockard) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:49:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] emailing lists for people with disabilities looking for work Message-ID: Hi guys, Do any of you know of email lists that I could join that help people who have disabilities network and find jobs. I'm looking for more work, and I'm also a Scentsy Wickless consultant looking to find people to join my team. I know here is not exactly the appropriate place for me to advertise, but I figured maybe some of you would know of good ideas, email groups, facebook groups, etc, where I could find interested people and where I could hear of additional work opportunities. Thanks Laurel From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 22:22:42 2014 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 22:22:42 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] emailing lists for people with disabilities looking for work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Laurel, There is the Jobs list. It's an NFB list. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 3/6/14, Laurel and Stockard wrote: > Hi guys, > Do any of you know of email lists that I could join that help people who > have disabilities network and find jobs. I'm looking for more work, and I'm > also a Scentsy Wickless consultant looking to find people to join my team. I > know here is not exactly the appropriate place for me to advertise, but I > figured maybe some of you would know of good ideas, email groups, facebook > groups, etc, where I could find interested people and where I could hear of > additional work opportunities. > Thanks > Laurel > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html Voiceover Artist www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 02:31:02 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:31:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] tables in ms word In-Reply-To: <000001cf393c$e9409ae0$bbc1d0a0$@mediacombb.net> References: <000001cf393c$e9409ae0$bbc1d0a0$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: <015701cf39ad$489fee80$d9dfcb80$@gmail.com> What screen reader are you using? If JAWS, you can use Control + Alt + your arrow keys to navigate by row or column. There are other keystrokes, and you can use Insert + H to get a quick reference from within your document to help tell you what these keys are. If not JAWS, let us know, and we'll get you the right key sequence.--Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:07 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] tables in ms word Hi all, I am using off 2010. I cannot figure out how to read the table that pop up some times in emails and in word. Any help with this basic questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Loren _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 02:34:50 2014 From: pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:34:50 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] video convertions Message-ID: <53193068.06d3440a.72bd.29db@mx.google.com> Hi all, I have four videos I want to joine together to make one. Is there any sites that would do that? I only have a Apex. I just want to put the videos on youtube From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Fri Mar 7 02:46:48 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:46:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] tables in ms word In-Reply-To: <015701cf39ad$489fee80$d9dfcb80$@gmail.com> References: <000001cf393c$e9409ae0$bbc1d0a0$@mediacombb.net> <015701cf39ad$489fee80$d9dfcb80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301cf39af$7cc21d30$76465790$@mediacombb.net> Thanks. It is jaws 14. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] tables in ms word What screen reader are you using? If JAWS, you can use Control + Alt + your arrow keys to navigate by row or column. There are other keystrokes, and you can use Insert + H to get a quick reference from within your document to help tell you what these keys are. If not JAWS, let us know, and we'll get you the right key sequence.--Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:07 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] tables in ms word Hi all, I am using off 2010. I cannot figure out how to read the table that pop up some times in emails and in word. Any help with this basic questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Loren _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et From trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 02:50:25 2014 From: trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com (Winona Brackett) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:50:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying Message-ID: <3F05AD35-BA3E-4785-9E0E-9DB4B25D82D1@gmail.com> Hi List, How do you guys study information like vocab words, formulas, and etc. for tests? What method works for you? Do you make flash cards? Repeat words and their definitions out loud? Winona trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com "Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it." -Lou Holtz Sent from my iPhone using VoiceOver From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Mar 7 03:24:54 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 22:24:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Studying In-Reply-To: <3F05AD35-BA3E-4785-9E0E-9DB4B25D82D1@gmail.com> References: <3F05AD35-BA3E-4785-9E0E-9DB4B25D82D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <392178AE-9375-4F4A-9752-92D89CBF6F43@fuse.net> Hi. I use a variety of methods. For math classes I read the key concepts and chapter summaries in the textbook. For foreign languages I just usually read the vocab sheets and am okay. What I have recently done for history is have someone have the list of topics for the unit and I describe each one. I pity the person who helps me with this, but I tend to remember conversations pretty well so this helps. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 6, 2014, at 9:50 PM, Winona Brackett wrote: > > Hi List, > > How do you guys study information like vocab words, formulas, and etc. for tests? What method works for you? Do you make flash cards? Repeat words and their definitions out loud? > > Winona > > trumpetqueenwb at gmail.com > > "Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it." -Lou Holtz > > Sent from my iPhone using VoiceOver > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 03:30:39 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 22:30:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] tables in ms word In-Reply-To: <015701cf39ad$489fee80$d9dfcb80$@gmail.com> References: <000001cf393c$e9409ae0$bbc1d0a0$@mediacombb.net> <015701cf39ad$489fee80$d9dfcb80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001a01cf39b5$a2e98330$e8bc8990$@gmail.com> You can use these table layer keystrokes. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 9:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] tables in ms word What screen reader are you using? If JAWS, you can use Control + Alt + your arrow keys to navigate by row or column. There are other keystrokes, and you can use Insert + H to get a quick reference from within your document to help tell you what these keys are. If not JAWS, let us know, and we'll get you the right key sequence.--Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Loren Wakefield Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:07 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] tables in ms word Hi all, I am using off 2010. I cannot figure out how to read the table that pop up some times in emails and in word. Any help with this basic questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Loren _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: table layer keystrokes.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 16410 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 03:35:01 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 22:35:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com> Hi Arielle, My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, women. No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should fear. It's when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy Hi Joe, I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide dog traveler? While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to be courtesies. Best, Arielle On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: > Arielle, > I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I > can't add much to your well-written message except I went through > similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so many > people a day since I was a more interverted person. > Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic > friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. > > > -Anjelina > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, >> but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. >> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to >> others besides me. >> >> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to >> control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried >> to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would >> go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical >> affection, hugging, touching etc. >> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows >> interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In >> middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes something". >> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell >> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down >> on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to >> increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked >> and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a >> good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I >> could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand >> what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less >> than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't >> a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been >> sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also >> read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social skills. >> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >> though she knew they were ridiculous. >> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems >> they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends >> and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or >> following social conventions like being places on time, attempting >> eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the >> first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf >> Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social >> skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: >> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other >> people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding grudges. >> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other >> people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, >> and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most >> social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind >> people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing >> something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social >> skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't >> help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced >> feels really awkward and fake. >> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For >> example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors >> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate >> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right >> to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are >> labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've >> learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms >> for whatever reason. >> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and >> that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of trial and error. >> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >> textbook were either effective or necessary. >> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to >> make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >> social competence. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gma >> il.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Mar 7 03:40:40 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 22:40:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sort of expanding on the social skills issue In-Reply-To: References: <7F5A8B0D-8E53-456F-B982-660EF7AF2CF0@fuse.net> Message-ID: <4AE2D941-179B-458F-A37E-17149FF4FDDE@fuse.net> Hi Arielle Thank you for your response. I am pretty sure my parents are going to bring up some of his actions at my iep. My guidance counselor said she felt I was fine taking these courses. I arrived at the meeting first so I got to talk to her by myself. I don't think he can officially do anything to me at this point. My dad warned me that he may try to say negative things about myself to future teachers. I am going to circumvent this a little by having meetings with most of my teachers by the end of the school year. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 5, 2014, at 11:45 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > > I am sorry you are having these issues. It is tricky to deal with the > ignorance of people who are in authority over you, especially when you > are still a teenager. If your TVI is a decent guy, he should listen to > you if you calmly and politely explain your preferences. However, he > may or may not take you seriously. If your parents agree with you, you > may want to have your mom or dad call him and talk to him about how he > is interfering with your success more than helping you. Blind students > take multiple AP classes all the time and unless you took AP classes > in the past that you weren't able to pass, he has no basis for talking > you out of it. My guess is he probably doesn't want to spend the time > preparing all your Braille materials for those classes, but that's not > his right as a teacher to discourage you for his own benefit. You can > also take this matter up with your guidance counselor or even the > principal. The bottom line is your TVI is responsible for getting you > Braille materials, not setting your schedule. You and your parents can > also request an IEP meeting to discuss this stuff with him and with > your teachers who are supporting you. Unfortunately, sometimes when we > are young we just have to make the best of the situations we are in > until we are old enough to get out of them. Bringing this thread full > circle, my parents often admonished me for being "too independent" if > I refused help. I didn't have blind adults to talk to and it took me a > while to realize that I had the right to refuse "help" that made me > feel uncomfortable. I hope we can offer you support as you deal with > the barriers that other people sometimes put up in the name of trying > to be helpful. > > Best, > Arielle > >> On 3/5/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> >> >> Hi everyone. We are talking about social skills mainly with students and in >> some public situations. However, what about with teachers or parents? >> I have had a decent number of moments where I have had to be assertive, and >> I am still refining my skills. I am dealing with and I feel as if I am >> walking on a very thin line for handling. I have a new tvi who is new this >> year and is a little odd in his actions and word choices than I was used to. >> I guess I am referring to his personality although I guess that sounds >> rather rude and judgmental now that I think about it. >> Over the past few months he has done some things that me and some of my >> family thought was rather strange or out of place. He accused me of being >> lazy and taking shortcuts but could not give any reason or examples of why >> he felt this way. When I went on a school trip he asked questions that I >> thought standard to ask someone about a trip such as how long the bus ride >> was and then some stranger questions such as how long I knew each of my >> roommates and wrote all of my answers down. >> Today I had a confrontation about bap classes. He basically told me that he >> thought I as a blind person shouldn't take 4 ap classes, even though I had >> teacher recomendations for these classes. He decided to make an appointment >> with my counselor, him and myself and I have a feeling that this is on the >> agenda. I have been polite but firm in most of my dealings with him, such as >> I apreciate and understand your concern, but I think I will keep my >> schedule. Thank you for telling me how you feel. >> These situations are occurring more often, and I am struggling with what to >> do. Should I continue with my current tactic? He can tell me I am stupid or >> lazy all he wants and I would respectfully listen as long as long as he had >> even a single reason. I don't know what to do and I am sorry I'm complaining >> on a public listserve like this.Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Mar 7 03:52:25 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 22:52:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] What is independence? In-Reply-To: References: <78E88062-26CE-4FFF-8D80-3E263CC4FD85@gmail.com> <530FB2EA.2080107@gmail.com> <008c01cf340f$fa82e5b0$ef88b110$@labarrelaw.com> Message-ID: <19E95903-CBFA-451C-925F-267DFE1AF17E@fuse.net> You are absolutely right. One simple remark could make or break a person. We are trying to increAse confidence in a healthy way, not destroy it. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > I wonder how many people, including some in leadership, have actually read this piece. > > I've run into more than one occasion when a person with leadership role in the NFB ostracized another of lesser ranking for using philosophically inferior methods for achieving independence. > > I've heard of a few instances of friends being lectured, even if for just a ten second long reprimand about blindness techniques. These people never forgot these interactions. Heck, they may have spent several minutes discussing the episode with me, which tells me they've done it also with others. The reprimand had an impact in the so-called low skilled blind person. > > I sure had a few thoughts about someone calling me out on using sighted guide techniques on the premise that quote "we don't do that here." Unquote. > > I can not imagine the person with the perceived power in these cases did not read this article. > > this type of interaction often drives people to think of the NFB as militant and the like. > > I don't know how some of the perceptions can change. I don't know if they will ever change, but at least the organization has taken some steps to learn about its image. > > Does anyone know what direction we are taking from any lessons learned after conducting the "what do you think of the NFB" image survey a few months ago? > > I'm sure it wasn't cheap to hire the PR consultants who ran that for us. What are we getting in return? > > Antonio >> On Feb 27, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: >> >> On this topic, everyone should read Dr. Jernigan's speech, the Nature of >> Independence. You can read or listen to the actual audio. It is under >> publication and then speeches and reports on the nfb.org website. In my >> view, it is one of the most compelling speeches in our history. >> >> Best, >> Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Silveira >> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 3:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] What is independence? >> >> Hi all, >> >> I agree with what has been said thus far; the word "independence" has From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 04:04:35 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:04:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com> References: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how can I help you?" query would have resolved that problem. That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate their gesture without asking. I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that social goal. Best, Arielle On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: > Hi Arielle, > > My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in > Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to basic > niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you get to a point > where kind gestures are more the exception than the norm. I spent too many > years building up my confidence for my independence to be challenged by > someone asking if I would like a seat or help across the street or any > number of gestures people think I could benefit from, and I too find myself > behaving extra nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual > disabilities, and yes, women. No, I don't think women are at any kind of > disadvantage, but the only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened > her car door, or the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a > restaurant was her pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because > someone was nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we > should fear. It's when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > Hi Joe, > > I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in there > that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. > You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the bus > because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer down. You > also make a statement to the effect that if you were sighted you would > offer > such special treatment to a blind person. > I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies for > blind > people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a blind person be > offered preferential seating or a discount as a courtesy that is not > offered > to everyone else? Am I missing something? Is receiving a seat near the door > something that addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something > about being a guide dog traveler? > While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually > because > I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back seat. If someone > wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally point out empty seats to me > rather than giving up their seats for me. > Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, I'd > find such treatment insulting. > > I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer anyone, > such as holding the door open. I also like it when people offer courtesies > that address my access needs, like describing visual things to me. I don't > like it when people presume needs I don't have, such as presuming I can't > stand on a crowded bus. If people have questions about how far my blindness > affects my abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider > such > assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for > that matter, to be courtesies. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >> Arielle, >> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I >> can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so many >> people a day since I was a more interverted person. >> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >> >> >> -Anjelina >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in part, >>> but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. >>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to >>> others besides me. >>> >>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want to >>> control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and tried >>> to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, I would >>> go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of physical >>> affection, hugging, touching etc. >>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like "Shows >>> interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". In >>> middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when she likes > something". >>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell >>> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it down >>> on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected to >>> increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I liked >>> and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give her a >>> good compliment report every day, by contriving situations where I >>> could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't understand >>> what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented people less >>> than my parents or teachers expected it was because that just wasn't >>> a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I been >>> sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also >>> read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social > skills. >>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it seems >>> they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning friends >>> and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or >>> following social conventions like being places on time, attempting >>> eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the >>> first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf >>> Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social >>> skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: >>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to other >>> people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not holding > grudges. >>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to other >>> people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the world, >>> and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the most >>> social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind >>> people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing >>> something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social >>> skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't >>> help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced >>> feels really awkward and fake. >>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. For >>> example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors >>> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate >>> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the right >>> to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind folks are >>> labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that they've >>> learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these norms >>> for whatever reason. >>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, and >>> that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a lot of > trial and error. >>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities to >>> make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>> social competence. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gma >>> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 04:31:49 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 23:31:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: References: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006501cf39be$28aa69a0$79ff3ce0$@gmail.com> As much as I agree with you, sometimes we are doing an individual a service if we allow them to be of service. Also, it is not always apparent that an individual who offered me a seat wouldn't have done so for another. I usually tend to think in your direction, but I have seen enough of the opposite that I concede that joe has a point. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how can I help you?" query would have resolved that problem. That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate their gesture without asking. I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that social goal. Best, Arielle On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: > Hi Arielle, > > My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in > Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to > basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you get > to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the norm. I > spent too many years building up my confidence for my independence to > be challenged by someone asking if I would like a seat or help across > the street or any number of gestures people think I could benefit > from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to people in > wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, women. > No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only > thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the > front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her > pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was nice > toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should fear. It's when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > Hi Joe, > > I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in > there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. > You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the > bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer > down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were sighted > you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. > I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies for > blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a blind > person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a courtesy > that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing something? Is > receiving a seat near the door something that addresses > blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide > dog traveler? > While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually > because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back > seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally point > out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. > Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, > I'd find such treatment insulting. > > I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer > anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people > offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual > things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, > such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have > questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather > they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my > preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to be > courtesies. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >> Arielle, >> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I >> can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >> >> >> -Anjelina >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in >>> part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. >>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to >>> others besides me. >>> >>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, >>> I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of >>> physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>> she likes > something". >>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell >>> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it >>> down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected >>> to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I >>> liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give >>> her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations >>> where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't >>> understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented >>> people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that >>> just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I >>> been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She >>> also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me >>> social > skills. >>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or >>> following social conventions like being places on time, attempting >>> eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the >>> first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf >>> Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social >>> skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: >>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>> holding > grudges. >>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the >>> most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind >>> people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing >>> something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social >>> skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't >>> help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced >>> feels really awkward and fake. >>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors >>> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate >>> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the >>> right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind >>> folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that >>> they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these >>> norms for whatever reason. >>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>> lot of > trial and error. >>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>> social competence. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gm >>> a >>> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Mar 7 05:31:17 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 22:31:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] what computer to buy for a friend Message-ID: <531959A5.3030503@comcast.net> Hi, guys. I'm having a bit of a snag here. I may be selling a couple things, and with some extra money, I thought because of the XP going bye bye and all, I thought I'd do my boyfriend a service and buy him a laptop or a pc. Well, I'm not sure what I should get. My friend told me I should get him a Lenovo laptop, but I'm trying to decide between a Toshiba or a proper American HP. One thing, I'm looking for a laptop with a good microphone that can do stereo, and I know HP would do that. But I have a friend who raves about his Toshiba Satellite, and I want to look at the layout of the keys. First question: how should I go shopping for the laptop? Second, instead of JAWS, I thought NVDA would do fine with Eloquence, so how would I get him some training on this new laptop? Or should I do it myself when I possibly fly down there to AZ in May? I thought of doing that myself because I'm good with computers and can do many things with them in terms of programming and some other stuff. What do you guys think? Thoughts? Beth From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 15:01:20 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:01:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: References: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003901cf3a16$19a02190$4ce064b0$@gmail.com> Arielle, I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. First, you write: "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not." To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just extended the courtesy. I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can leave both parties satisfied. Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. Next, you write: "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that social goal." My response: I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than another." I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line between true independence and independence according to one's convenient definition. Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how can I help you?" query would have resolved that problem. That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate their gesture without asking. I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that social goal. Best, Arielle On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: > Hi Arielle, > > My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in > Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to > basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you get > to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the norm. I > spent too many years building up my confidence for my independence to > be challenged by someone asking if I would like a seat or help across > the street or any number of gestures people think I could benefit > from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to people in > wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, women. > No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only > thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the > front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her > pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was nice > toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should fear. It's when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > Hi Joe, > > I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in > there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. > You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the > bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer > down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were sighted > you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. > I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies for > blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a blind > person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a courtesy > that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing something? Is > receiving a seat near the door something that addresses > blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide > dog traveler? > While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually > because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back > seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally point > out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. > Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, > I'd find such treatment insulting. > > I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer > anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people > offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual > things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, > such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have > questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather > they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my > preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to be > courtesies. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >> Arielle, >> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I >> can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >> >> >> -Anjelina >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in >>> part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few years. >>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to >>> others besides me. >>> >>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, >>> I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of >>> physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>> she likes > something". >>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell >>> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it >>> down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected >>> to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I >>> liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give >>> her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations >>> where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't >>> understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented >>> people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that >>> just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I >>> been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She >>> also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me >>> social > skills. >>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or >>> following social conventions like being places on time, attempting >>> eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the >>> first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf >>> Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social >>> skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: >>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>> holding > grudges. >>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the >>> most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind >>> people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing >>> something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social >>> skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't >>> help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced >>> feels really awkward and fake. >>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors >>> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate >>> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the >>> right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind >>> folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that >>> they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these >>> norms for whatever reason. >>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite belong. >>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>> lot of > trial and error. >>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>> social competence. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gm >>> a >>> il.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Mar 7 17:39:24 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:39:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility presentation in my computing ethics class Message-ID: I am a legally blind computer science student at Arizona State University. I am currently taking a course in computing ethics. I chose to do my presentation on computing and the disabled. There are only a couple of pages in our text about it that talk about accessibility but also talk about companies deciding not to provide accommodation becasue technology now allows employees to work remote. I will be researching the subject but I know that the people on these lists have vast knowledge so I thought this was the perfect place to ask questions. I am a user of mac zoom and zoontext so I dont' know a lot about the specific accessibility issues when using JAWS So here are some of my questions. Also feel free to offer information on anything I may have left outs. What do software developers need to do to ensure the software they develop is accessible via a screen reader? Is is just things like in visual studio setting the Accessibility Properties of a control like a combo box? When I use ZoomText the insertion point is tracked in some software but not others. What needs to be done to allow tracking? Does the software need to expose something? What makes a web page accessible vs not accessible with speech? What have been people's experiences with things like blackboard, or other sites you are required to use in school to access your class, turn in assignments, take online quizzes/tests etc. Where can a developer go to learn about requirements for accessibility, what makes a program or webpage more accessible Does anyone have experience on the job in which a program you were using was accessible but they came out with a new version that was no longer accessible? Specific examples would be really helpful What laws exist concerning accessibility to computers, software etc? I would really love to show a demo of someone who is really experienced with JAWS especially someone who works in the computer science field. Would any one be willing to provide me with a short video of you working so the students can see how we work in the field? I would provide a link to my dropbox for the video. I can do any required editing. After I present to the class, I am planning on providing my presentation to the dean of computer science and explain why I believe accessibility should be taught from the beginning to computer science students. If they learn to at least think about it when learning to develop software I believe they will be more likely to do it in practice. I believe most people don't even think about since it does not affect them or anyone they know. I also think it would be really cool for the disabled student resource center to partner with the computer science department to set up a list of volunteers who are users on screen readers to sit with students and test the accessibility of their code as a learning experience. Thank you in advance for your help Suzanne From dburke at cocenter.org Fri Mar 7 18:42:39 2014 From: dburke at cocenter.org (Dan Burke) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 18:42:39 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Coming up soon - Western Regional Student Seminar! Message-ID: <77f1b6004fb44daf8bfc1f73a73d153c@SN2PR07MB094.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Colorado Association of Blind Students, Colorado Center for the Blind, and Colorado Department of Vocational Rehabilitation Presents Student Connect 2014 Western States Seminar April 10-13, 2014 Connect to build success in the classroom and beyond! What happens when you get a group of intelligent, enthusiastic, and ambitious blind students from across the western United States together for a weekend? You have a MIND BLOWING Student Connect 2014 Western States Seminar where students gain information about tools and resources, learn to network, brainstorm creative solutions to common problems facing blind students, and HAVE FUN! Join the Colorado Association of Blind Students at Connect 2014 on April 10-13 for the year's most dynamic student seminar in the Western United States. Seminar sessions will be held at the Colorado Center for the Blind in Littleton Colorado. There will be presentations and information about all aspects of college. From the high-school transition to graduation and finding a job, from the classroom to the intermural sports field, we will address all the tough questions about how to be a successful college student. Our hotel room block is available at the Hampton Inn, Highlands Ranch located at 3095 W. County Line Rd. Littleton, CO 80129. Room rates are $89.00 per night regardless of occupancy number. There is FREE hotel shuttle within a 5 -mile radius of the hotel including the CCB. Make your reservation NO LATER THAN March 10, 2014 by calling 855-261-5567. Mention that you are with the Colorado Association of Blind Students Student Seminar to receive the 89.00 room rate. DO NOT wait! Make your reservations today! Registration will be $50 and will include Friday lunch, Saturday Lunch, and Saturday dinner. To REGISTER go to http://studentconnect14.brownpapertickets.com For more information contact Antonio Rozier at arozier at cocenter.org. You can also call 404-376-5661. CONNECT! * CONNECT to the latest innovations in science, technology, math, and science for blind students. * CONNECT to scholarships, employment and internship opportunities, and blind professionals. * CONNECT to the largest network of blind students in the United States! From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 20:05:29 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 13:05:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: <003901cf3a16$19a02190$4ce064b0$@gmail.com> References: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com> <003901cf3a16$19a02190$4ce064b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate them on what would have been a better way to offer help. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that denies me the opportunity to decline. And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special accommodations. It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. Best, Arielle On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: > Arielle, > > I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. > > First, you write: > > "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't do > that > for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption that I as a > blind > person need the seat more than they. Occasionally that may be true, but > usually it's not." > > To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional exception > presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than you pass on an > opportunity you could have had if the person had just extended the > courtesy. > I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive the > courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is misdirected, but > thank > goodness for two-way communication that can leave both parties satisfied. > > Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present > themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I really > don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. Want to see > how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school special, but some of > the best educational opportunities have come from people asking to do > something and then me telling them why it is I don't need it. The general > public will never know if we don't educate. > > Next, you write: > > "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think > it's > about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be women or > blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that social goal." > > My response: > > I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, > blindness > can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is still a > characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give the blind > person > an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, then we should eliminate > extra time on exams. After all, it's your right to have an exam in the > format you need to take it, but giving you extra time is a courtesy other > test takers did not receive. We should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard > program, because other vendors can't get those vending facilities. As long > as we're talking about buses, we should eliminate special transit services > since people with disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use > public buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes > with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more > deserving > of that courtesy than another." > > I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the > examples > to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line between true > independence and independence according to one's convenient definition. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about each > other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us > courtesies > they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, just as I think > it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman that they wouldn't > offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form of discrimination. It > allows some people but not others to experience kindness, but more > importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption about why one group of > people is more deserving of that courtesy than another. Why does someone > get > up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted > passenger? Because they have some assumption that I as a blind person need > the seat more than they. > Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. > And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but then > neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus driver lowers > the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing the step, but he > neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how can I help you?" > query > would have resolved that problem. > That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want some > form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my hands. It > is > a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate their gesture without > asking. > I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think it's > about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be women or > blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that social goal. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >> Hi Arielle, >> >> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you get >> to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the norm. I >> spent too many years building up my confidence for my independence to >> be challenged by someone asking if I would like a seat or help across >> the street or any number of gestures people think I could benefit >> from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to people in >> wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, women. >> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only >> thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the >> front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was nice >> toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should fear. >> It's > when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were sighted >> you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies for >> blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a blind >> person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a courtesy >> that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing something? Is >> receiving a seat near the door something that addresses >> blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide >> dog traveler? >> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally point >> out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, >> I'd find such treatment insulting. >> >> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual >> things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, >> such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have >> questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather >> they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my >> preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to be >> courtesies. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I >>> can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>> >>> >>> -Anjelina >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in >>>> part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few > years. >>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to >>>> others besides me. >>>> >>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, >>>> I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of >>>> physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>> she likes >> something". >>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell >>>> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it >>>> down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected >>>> to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I >>>> liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give >>>> her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations >>>> where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't >>>> understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented >>>> people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that >>>> just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I >>>> been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She >>>> also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me >>>> social >> skills. >>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or >>>> following social conventions like being places on time, attempting >>>> eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the >>>> first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf >>>> Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social >>>> skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: >>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>> holding >> grudges. >>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the >>>> most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind >>>> people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing >>>> something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social >>>> skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't >>>> help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced >>>> feels really awkward and fake. >>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors >>>> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate >>>> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the >>>> right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind >>>> folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that >>>> they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these >>>> norms for whatever reason. >>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite > belong. >>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>> lot of >> trial and error. >>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>> social competence. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gm >>>> a >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Mar 7 20:20:01 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 15:20:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Scheduling In-Reply-To: <19ACDC03-067E-490A-8699-2DC70190A8FC@gmail.com> References: <53112be1.a2e3ec0a.01d1.ffff9937@mx.google.com> <19ACDC03-067E-490A-8699-2DC70190A8FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you all belatedly for your help. The thing about calc and Braille is a good thing to consider. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 1, 2014, at 1:32 PM, Minhh Ha wrote: > > I definitely agree with Arielle that stats is a lot easier than calculus. I took Ap calc in high school and it was one of the hardest classes I ever took and I was really glad that I had the braille and all the support I needed. I'm taking stats in college right now and it's more manageable without braille. Also, you need to consider that universities have core require.e ts and while many of them accept AP credit for waving the college math requirement for calc, they won't do the same for AP stats, especially the more prestigious universities. This happened to a lot of my friends who opted to take AP stats in hs instead of AP calc. > > Minh > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 1, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> If your major is going to require calc or higher, and you take AP calc >> and pass the AP exam, you can completely get out of college math. >> That's what I did and I'm glad I took calc as a high school senior >> with a Braille text instead of waiting until college where Braille >> might have been a rare luxury. On the other hand, if you know for sure >> that your major won't require calc, you can do stats instead. I >> thought that a B.S. in psychology requires a semester of calc, but >> perhaps I am wrong about that? I personally think stats is much easier >> than calculus, for whatever that's worth. So if you have to take both >> and can only take one in high school, I'd probably suggest taking calc >> while you have the support and Braille access, which won't be critical >> for stats. Just my thoughts. >> Arielle >> >>> On 2/28/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi Lillie and all, >>> >>> I agree with some of what has been said, but here's another spin on >>> it. Of course, I have a slight advantage in knowing what you're >>> looking into for college majors since we personally know each other, >>> so here is what I would suggest. >>> >>> Speaking as someone who is in a very humanistic field, and who is in >>> the psych department a lot and knows a lot of people getting their B.S >>> degrees as well as those in other humanities fields, I would recommend >>> going with the AP Stats course. I wish I had taken it senior year >>> when I had a little more support instead of waiting till college to >>> take stats, and I don't, nor do any of my psychology friends, have to >>> take any other math. Sure, psych majors have to take experimental >>> psychology which has a little math involved, but it's nothing like >>> calc from what I understand. If you know you're going to go into a >>> humanities major, and eventually a career, I wouldn't waste your time From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Mar 7 23:43:38 2014 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 16:43:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Student Connect/Western Reagional Student Seminar In-Reply-To: <5193df9bc8b94fbdaaca22aaac7cbaf1@SN2PR07MB094.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <5193df9bc8b94fbdaaca22aaac7cbaf1@SN2PR07MB094.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <003901cf3a5f$11967190$34c354b0$@labarrelaw.com> FYI Colorado Association of Blind Students, Colorado Center for the Blind, and Colorado Department of Vocational Rehabilitation Presents Student Connect 2014 Western States Seminar April 10-13, 2014 Connect to build success in the classroom and beyond! What happens when you get a group of intelligent, enthusiastic, and ambitious blind students from across the western United States together for a weekend? You have a MIND BLOWING Student Connect 2014 Western States Seminar where students gain information about tools and resources, learn to network, brainstorm creative solutions to common problems facing blind students, and HAVE FUN! Join the Colorado Association of Blind Students at Connect 2014 on April 10-13 for the year's most dynamic student seminar in the Western United States. Seminar sessions will be held at the Colorado Center for the Blind in Littleton Colorado. There will be presentations and information about all aspects of college. From the high-school transition to graduation and finding a job, from the classroom to the intermural sports field, we will address all the tough questions about how to be a successful college student. Our hotel room block is available at the Hampton Inn, Highlands Ranch located at 3095 W. County Line Rd. Littleton, CO 80129. Room rates are $89.00 per night regardless of occupancy number. There is FREE hotel shuttle within a 5 -mile radius of the hotel including the CCB. Make your reservation NO LATER THAN March 10, 2014 by calling 855-261-5567. Mention that you are with the Colorado Association of Blind Students Student Seminar to receive the 89.00 room rate. DO NOT wait! Make your reservations today! Registration will be $50 and will include Friday lunch, Saturday Lunch, and Saturday dinner. To REGISTER go to http://studentconnect14.brownpapertickets.com For more information contact Antonio Rozier at arozier at cocenter.org. You can also call 404-376-5661. CONNECT! . CONNECT to the latest innovations in science, technology, math, and science for blind students. . CONNECT to scholarships, employment and internship opportunities, and blind professionals. . CONNECT to the largest network of blind students in the United States! From lissa1531 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 04:28:58 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 21:28:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy References: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com><003901cf3a16$19a02190$4ce064b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1DCF29BB7EF44FE3BD0A4FFF5EBAA003@HP30910210001> there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or don't demand special treatment. I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong about this. I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the first day of class. Have a blessed day. Best, Melissa R Green and PJ Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy Hi Joe, I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate them on what would have been a better way to offer help. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that denies me the opportunity to decline. And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special accommodations. It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. Best, Arielle On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: > Arielle, > > I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. > > First, you write: > > "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't do > that > for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption that I as a > blind > person need the seat more than they. Occasionally that may be true, but > usually it's not." > > To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional exception > presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than you pass on an > opportunity you could have had if the person had just extended the > courtesy. > I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive the > courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is misdirected, but > thank > goodness for two-way communication that can leave both parties satisfied. > > Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present > themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I really > don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. Want to see > how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school special, but some of > the best educational opportunities have come from people asking to do > something and then me telling them why it is I don't need it. The general > public will never know if we don't educate. > > Next, you write: > > "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think > it's > about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be women or > blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that social goal." > > My response: > > I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, > blindness > can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is still a > characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give the blind > person > an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, then we should eliminate > extra time on exams. After all, it's your right to have an exam in the > format you need to take it, but giving you extra time is a courtesy other > test takers did not receive. We should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard > program, because other vendors can't get those vending facilities. As long > as we're talking about buses, we should eliminate special transit services > since people with disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to > use > public buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes > with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more > deserving > of that courtesy than another." > > I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the > examples > to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line between true > independence and independence according to one's convenient definition. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about each > other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us > courtesies > they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, just as I think > it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman that they wouldn't > offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form of discrimination. It > allows some people but not others to experience kindness, but more > importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption about why one group of > people is more deserving of that courtesy than another. Why does someone > get > up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted > passenger? Because they have some assumption that I as a blind person need > the seat more than they. > Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. > And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but > then > neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus driver > lowers > the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing the step, but he > neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how can I help you?" > query > would have resolved that problem. > That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want some > form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my hands. It > is > a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate their gesture > without > asking. > I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think > it's > about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be women or > blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that social goal. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >> Hi Arielle, >> >> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you get >> to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the norm. I >> spent too many years building up my confidence for my independence to >> be challenged by someone asking if I would like a seat or help across >> the street or any number of gestures people think I could benefit >> from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to people in >> wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, women. >> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only >> thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the >> front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was nice >> toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should fear. >> It's > when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were sighted >> you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies for >> blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a blind >> person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a courtesy >> that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing something? Is >> receiving a seat near the door something that addresses >> blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide >> dog traveler? >> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally point >> out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, >> I'd find such treatment insulting. >> >> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual >> things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, >> such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have >> questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather >> they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my >> preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to be >> courtesies. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! I >>> can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>> >>> >>> -Anjelina >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in >>>> part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every few > years. >>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense to >>>> others besides me. >>>> >>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, >>>> I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of >>>> physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>> she likes >> something". >>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to tell >>>> her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote it >>>> down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was expected >>>> to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student and I >>>> liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to give >>>> her a good compliment report every day, by contriving situations >>>> where I could compliment my family and classmates. I still don't >>>> understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I complimented >>>> people less than my parents or teachers expected it was because that >>>> just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact with people. Had I >>>> been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She >>>> also read me passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me >>>> social >> skills. >>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) or >>>> following social conventions like being places on time, attempting >>>> eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending in"). By the >>>> first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing people, Adolf >>>> Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are other social >>>> skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: >>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>> holding >> grudges. >>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think the >>>> most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with blind >>>> people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was doing >>>> something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these social >>>> skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions doesn't >>>> help when you're out in the real world and the thing you practiced >>>> feels really awkward and fake. >>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which colors >>>> people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is appropriate >>>> for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still have the >>>> right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems that blind >>>> folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the fact is that >>>> they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not to follow these >>>> norms for whatever reason. >>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite > belong. >>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>> lot of >> trial and error. >>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>> social competence. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gm >>>> a >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 04:32:28 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 23:32:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: <1DCF29BB7EF44FE3BD0A4FFF5EBAA003@HP30910210001> References: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com><003901cf3a16$19a02190$4ce064b0$@gmail.com> <1DCF29BB7EF44FE3BD0A4FFF5EBAA003@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <2e4601cf3a87$6a19b7a0$3e4d26e0$@gmail.com> That teacher is an idiot; there is no excuse to mistreat you over that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or don't demand special treatment. I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong about this. I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the first day of class. Have a blessed day. Best, Melissa R Green and PJ Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy Hi Joe, I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate them on what would have been a better way to offer help. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that denies me the opportunity to decline. And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special accommodations. It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. Best, Arielle On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: > Arielle, > > I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. > > First, you write: > > "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't > do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption > that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally > that may be true, but usually it's not." > > To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional > exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than > you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just > extended the courtesy. > I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive the > courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is misdirected, but > thank goodness for two-way communication that can leave both parties > satisfied. > > Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present > themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I > really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. > Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school > special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come from > people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is I > don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. > > Next, you write: > > "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I > think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether > that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with > that social goal." > > My response: > > I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, > blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is > still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give > the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, > then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your > right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving > you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We > should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors > can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about > buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with > disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public buses > just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes with some > kind of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of > that courtesy than another." > > I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the > examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line > between true independence and independence according to one's > convenient definition. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about > each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us > courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, > just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman > that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form > of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to experience > kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption > about why one group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than > another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they > wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some > assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. > Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. > And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but > then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus > driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing > the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how > can I help you?" > query > would have resolved that problem. > That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want > some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my > hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate > their gesture without asking. > I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think > it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be > women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that > social goal. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >> Hi Arielle, >> >> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people think >> I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to >> people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, women. >> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only >> thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the >> front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should fear. >> It's > when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that addresses >> blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide >> dog traveler? >> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, >> I'd find such treatment insulting. >> >> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual >> things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, >> such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have >> questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather >> they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my >> preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to >> be courtesies. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>> >>> >>> -Anjelina >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in >>>> part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every >>>> few > years. >>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense >>>> to others besides me. >>>> >>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, >>>> I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of >>>> physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>> she likes >> something". >>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student >>>> and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to >>>> give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving >>>> situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I >>>> still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I >>>> complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it >>>> was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact >>>> with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on >>>> such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills >>>> book as a way to teach me social >> skills. >>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing >>>> people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are >>>> other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: >>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>> holding >> grudges. >>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite > belong. >>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>> lot of >> trial and error. >>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>> social competence. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40g >>>> m >>>> a >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >> c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 05:06:42 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 00:06:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: <1DCF29BB7EF44FE3BD0A4FFF5EBAA003@HP30910210001> References: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com><003901cf3a16$19a02190$4ce064b0$@gmail.com> <1DCF29BB7EF44FE3BD0A4FFF5EBAA003@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <003801cf3a8c$3246ffe0$96d4ffa0$@gmail.com> Hi Melissa, I think blind people will always be our own worse enemies. Putting the whole issue of independence aside, a person's perception will be shaped by the most recent interaction they had with a blind person, even if the encounter happened years ago. I had a similar experience last year when a lady offered to guide me to some building entrance or another. I was already running late and took the help, explaining along the way that the blind person who had previously rudely turned down her help was not reflective of all blind people, but you know, as frustrating as that is, I'm glad it means we're all still different from one another. Yes, I wish all blind people were perfect ambassadors to make me look good by association. Yet, that defeats the whole notion of individuality. People need to be independent enough to pick and choose what they need to reach an optimal peak of independence. The NFB philosophy does not quite accommodate that concept, but that's neither a plus nor a flaw. It's just part of a collective belief. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or don't demand special treatment. I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong about this. I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the first day of class. Have a blessed day. Best, Melissa R Green and PJ Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy Hi Joe, I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate them on what would have been a better way to offer help. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that denies me the opportunity to decline. And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special accommodations. It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. Best, Arielle On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: > Arielle, > > I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. > > First, you write: > > "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't > do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption > that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally > that may be true, but usually it's not." > > To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional > exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than > you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just > extended the courtesy. > I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive the > courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is misdirected, but > thank goodness for two-way communication that can leave both parties > satisfied. > > Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present > themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I > really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. > Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school > special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come from > people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is I > don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. > > Next, you write: > > "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I > think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether > that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with > that social goal." > > My response: > > I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, > blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is > still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give > the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, > then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your > right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving > you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We > should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors > can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about > buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with > disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public buses > just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes with some > kind of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of > that courtesy than another." > > I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the > examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line > between true independence and independence according to one's > convenient definition. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about > each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us > courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, > just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman > that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form > of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to experience > kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption > about why one group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than > another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they > wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some > assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. > Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. > And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but > then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus > driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing > the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how > can I help you?" > query > would have resolved that problem. > That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want > some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my > hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate > their gesture without asking. > I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think > it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be > women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that > social goal. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >> Hi Arielle, >> >> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people think >> I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to >> people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, women. >> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only >> thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the >> front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should fear. >> It's > when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >> Silverman >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that addresses >> blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide >> dog traveler? >> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, >> I'd find such treatment insulting. >> >> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual >> things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, >> such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have >> questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather >> they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my >> preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to >> be courtesies. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>> >>> >>> -Anjelina >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in >>>> part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every >>>> few > years. >>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense >>>> to others besides me. >>>> >>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, >>>> I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of >>>> physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>> she likes >> something". >>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student >>>> and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to >>>> give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving >>>> situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I >>>> still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I >>>> complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it >>>> was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact >>>> with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on >>>> such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills >>>> book as a way to teach me social >> skills. >>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing >>>> people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are >>>> other social skills that are much more important for having lasting relationships: >>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>> holding >> grudges. >>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite > belong. >>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>> lot of >> trial and error. >>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>> social competence. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40g >>>> m >>>> a >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >> c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 05:11:06 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 22:11:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google maps and other ways to get directions between two places Message-ID: Hi all, I'm going to be moving to Seattle this summer, so I've been exploring Google Maps a little bit trying to learn the layout and routes between my future workplace and other landmarks. But I noticed that Google Maps is different. It seems like most of the screen is taken up with a map and all the edit boxes are gone, and links that used to appear in the JAWS links list no longer do so. I can access the old Google Maps on my old computer which still has IE 8 on it, but when I try to use a newer browser, it takes me to this new Google maps that's not very accessible. Have you guys figured out if Google Maps is still accessible? Does it have a basic HTML mode? If not, what other sites or IOS apps are good for getting directions between two places or for virtually exploring an area? Thanks, Arielle From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 05:15:58 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 22:15:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy In-Reply-To: <003801cf3a8c$3246ffe0$96d4ffa0$@gmail.com> References: <016401cf39b6$38eb2780$aac17680$@gmail.com> <003901cf3a16$19a02190$4ce064b0$@gmail.com> <1DCF29BB7EF44FE3BD0A4FFF5EBAA003@HP30910210001> <003801cf3a8c$3246ffe0$96d4ffa0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I know a lot of students who are not blind but have learning disabilities are allowed extra time for tests. I am not sure if this is the best accommodation for them either. I've given exams to students who used extra time and still didn't perform well. There are many possible reasons for that, but I suspect that many students with learning disabilities could do better if the exams were given in alternate formats. I wonder if someone with dyslexia struggling through a print test with extra time is much like a partially sighted student doing the same. However, not being a member of the learning-disability community I really can't comment authoritatively on that. It is up to that community to decide and I hope their voices can be reflected in policies affecting them too. Arielle On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: > Hi Melissa, > > I think blind people will always be our own worse enemies. Putting the > whole > issue of independence aside, a person's perception will be shaped by the > most recent interaction they had with a blind person, even if the encounter > happened years ago. I had a similar experience last year when a lady > offered > to guide me to some building entrance or another. I was already running > late > and took the help, explaining along the way that the blind person who had > previously rudely turned down her help was not reflective of all blind > people, but you know, as frustrating as that is, I'm glad it means we're > all > still different from one another. Yes, I wish all blind people were perfect > ambassadors to make me look good by association. Yet, that defeats the > whole > notion of individuality. People need to be independent enough to pick and > choose what they need to reach an optimal peak of independence. The NFB > philosophy does not quite accommodate that concept, but that's neither a > plus nor a flaw. It's just part of a collective belief. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who feels > that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. Thus she > demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be waved from a > class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to me. then sightling > compares her to me. When I say no thank you or don't demand special > treatment. > I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't just > for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think that they > have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong about this. > I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, that > is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all of the > accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, I was > talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She teaches > classes > at a college as well as to pre school children. The first day I met her, > she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was there and when I said I > was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we were having a comversation > and she told me of a blind person who came into her frinch class the first > day and demanded all of these accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This > told me that is why she was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind > woman would be teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last > experience with a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all > blind people are like that person. Usually blind students contact > professors before the first day of class. > Have a blessed day. > Best, > Melissa R Green and PJ > Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing > list" > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > > Hi Joe, > > I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be > offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is fine > for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if any, we > require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a responsibility > to > be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why we accept it, and the > potential costs of accepting it. > > Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing to > stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders the > front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even halfway on the > bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple anonymously pays for my > meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find out and can be part of the > conversation. Or the stranger, instead of asking if I need help across the > street, physically pulls on my body and storms off in a huff when I ask > them > to stop; no time to educate them on what would have been a better way to > offer help. > Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind and > respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. > But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment tends to > get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that denies me the > opportunity to decline. > > And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time on > tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the real > problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the first place, > like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an accommodation > invented > by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level the playing field. I don't > think it's the best accommodation for us. Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was > passed in the 1930's before the NFB was around, by sighted legislators > trying to help us find employment. It helps in some ways, but it, too, has > a > lot of problems. I think the accommodations we are offered need to be based > on the needs real blind people identify and solutions that real blind > people > imagine to address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people > in advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the > front > lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people > including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB philosophy). > If > we accept special treatment that is based on real needs and that is > actually > effective in meeting those needs, that special treatment is no longer tied > to outsider assumptions about us. Of course, we should also consider that > if > the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't > require any special accommodations. > It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special accommodation > will differ between two blind people at any given time. > I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective treatment on > principle. I think it is about being mindful of what accommodations we seek > out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of some sort. Sometimes, it's > other people's tax dollars or other people's time. Other times it's a cost > to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. > Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh the > costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the right to > reject them without being considered excessively independent. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >> >> First, you write: >> >> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >> that may be true, but usually it's not." >> >> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >> extended the courtesy. >> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive the >> courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is misdirected, but >> thank goodness for two-way communication that can leave both parties >> satisfied. >> >> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come from >> people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is I >> don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >> >> Next, you write: >> >> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal." >> >> My response: >> >> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public buses >> just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes with some >> kind of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of >> that courtesy than another." >> >> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >> between true independence and independence according to one's >> convenient definition. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us >> courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, >> just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman >> that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form >> of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to experience >> kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption >> about why one group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than >> another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they >> wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some >> assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. >> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but >> then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus >> driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing >> the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how >> can I help you?" >> query >> would have resolved that problem. >> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >> their gesture without asking. >> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think >> it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be >> women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that >> social goal. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>> Hi Arielle, >>> >>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people think >>> I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to >>> people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, > women. >>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only >>> thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the >>> front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should > fear. >>> It's >> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that addresses >>> blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide >>> dog traveler? >>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, >>> I'd find such treatment insulting. >>> >>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual >>> things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, >>> such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have >>> questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather >>> they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my >>> preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to >>> be courtesies. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>> >>>> >>>> -Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>>>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>>>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in >>>>> part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every >>>>> few >> years. >>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>>>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense >>>>> to others besides me. >>>>> >>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, >>>>> I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of >>>>> physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>>>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>>>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>>>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>>>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>>>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>> she likes >>> something". >>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student >>>>> and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to >>>>> give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving >>>>> situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I >>>>> still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I >>>>> complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it >>>>> was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact >>>>> with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on >>>>> such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills >>>>> book as a way to teach me social >>> skills. >>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>>>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing >>>>> people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are >>>>> other social skills that are much more important for having lasting > relationships: >>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>> holding >>> grudges. >>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>>>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>>>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>>>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>>>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >> belong. >>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>> lot of >>> trial and error. >>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>>>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>> social competence. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40g >>>>> m >>>>> a >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lissa1531 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 06:00:04 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 23:00:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Google maps and other ways to get directions between twoplaces References: Message-ID: congratulations on your new adventure and job Arielle. Have a blessed day. Best, Melissa R Green and PJ Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" ; Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 10:11 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Google maps and other ways to get directions between twoplaces Hi all, I'm going to be moving to Seattle this summer, so I've been exploring Google Maps a little bit trying to learn the layout and routes between my future workplace and other landmarks. But I noticed that Google Maps is different. It seems like most of the screen is taken up with a map and all the edit boxes are gone, and links that used to appear in the JAWS links list no longer do so. I can access the old Google Maps on my old computer which still has IE 8 on it, but when I try to use a newer browser, it takes me to this new Google maps that's not very accessible. Have you guys figured out if Google Maps is still accessible? Does it have a basic HTML mode? If not, what other sites or IOS apps are good for getting directions between two places or for virtually exploring an area? Thanks, Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat Mar 8 17:37:09 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:37:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times Message-ID: I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in school, there were no official extended test times but because of the way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. I found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come out of my leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. I decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was a student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that other students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time as an employee? Best regards, Steve Jacobson >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who feels >that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. Thus she >demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be waved from a >class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to me. then sightling >compares her to me. When I say no thank you or don't demand special >treatment. >I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't just >for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think that they >have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong about this. >I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, that >is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all of the >accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, I was >talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She teaches classes >at a college as well as to pre school children. The first day I met her, >she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was there and when I said I >was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we were having a comversation >and she told me of a blind person who came into her frinch class the first >day and demanded all of these accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This >told me that is why she was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind >woman would be teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last >experience with a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all >blind people are like that person. Usually blind students contact >professors before the first day of class. >Have a blessed day. >Best, >Melissa R Green and PJ >Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arielle Silverman" >To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing >list" >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >Hi Joe, >I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be >offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is fine >for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if any, we >require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a responsibility to >be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why we accept it, and the >potential costs of accepting it. >Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing to >stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders the >front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even halfway on the >bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple anonymously pays for my >meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find out and can be part of the >conversation. Or the stranger, instead of asking if I need help across the >street, physically pulls on my body and storms off in a huff when I ask them >to stop; no time to educate them on what would have been a better way to >offer help. >Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind and >respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment tends to >get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that denies me the >opportunity to decline. >And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time on >tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the real >problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the first place, >like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an accommodation invented >by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level the playing field. I don't >think it's the best accommodation for us. Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was >passed in the 1930's before the NFB was around, by sighted legislators >trying to help us find employment. It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a >lot of problems. I think the accommodations we are offered need to be based >on the needs real blind people identify and solutions that real blind people >imagine to address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people >in advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front >lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people >including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB philosophy). If >we accept special treatment that is based on real needs and that is actually >effective in meeting those needs, that special treatment is no longer tied >to outsider assumptions about us. Of course, we should also consider that if >the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't >require any special accommodations. >It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special accommodation >will differ between two blind people at any given time. >I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective treatment on >principle. I think it is about being mindful of what accommodations we seek >out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of some sort. Sometimes, it's >other people's tax dollars or other people's time. Other times it's a cost >to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. >Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh the >costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the right to >reject them without being considered excessively independent. >Best, >Arielle >On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >> >> First, you write: >> >> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >> that may be true, but usually it's not." >> >> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >> extended the courtesy. >> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive the >> courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is misdirected, but >> thank goodness for two-way communication that can leave both parties >> satisfied. >> >> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come from >> people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is I >> don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >> >> Next, you write: >> >> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal." >> >> My response: >> >> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public buses >> just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes with some >> kind of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of >> that courtesy than another." >> >> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >> between true independence and independence according to one's >> convenient definition. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer us >> courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are blind, >> just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as a woman >> that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy is a form >> of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to experience >> kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of assumption >> about why one group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than >> another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they >> wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some >> assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. >> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies but >> then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the bus >> driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble climbing >> the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A simple "how >> can I help you?" >> query >> would have resolved that problem. >> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >> their gesture without asking. >> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I think >> it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether that be >> women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with that >> social goal. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>> Hi Arielle, >>> >>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people think >>> I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra nice to >>> people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual disabilities, and yes, >women. >>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the only >>> thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or the >>> front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should >fear. >>> It's >> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that addresses >>> blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about being a guide >>> dog traveler? >>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In fact, >>> I'd find such treatment insulting. >>> >>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing visual >>> things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I don't have, >>> such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If people have >>> questions about how far my blindness affects my abilities, I'd rather >>> they ask than assume. I don't consider such assumptions about my >>> preferences based on my blindness, or my gender for that matter, to >>> be courtesies. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>> >>>> >>>> -Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some of >>>>> my experiences and controversial views on how blind people should >>>>> learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant before in >>>>> part, but I think it is important enough to bear repeating every >>>>> few >> years. >>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar experiences >>>>> growing up or if the things I am about to advocate make any sense >>>>> to others besides me. >>>>> >>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or silly, >>>>> I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot of >>>>> physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable traits >>>>> linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because of my >>>>> blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my IEP >>>>> throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my social >>>>> skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. For >>>>> example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>> she likes >>> something". >>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good student >>>>> and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my hardest to >>>>> give her a good compliment report every day, by contriving >>>>> situations where I could compliment my family and classmates. I >>>>> still don't understand what this had to do with my blindness. If I >>>>> complimented people less than my parents or teachers expected it >>>>> was because that just wasn't a big part of how I liked to interact >>>>> with people. Had I been sighted, I wouldn't have been graded on >>>>> such a silly thing. She also read me passages from a social skills >>>>> book as a way to teach me social >>> skills. >>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did even >>>>> though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and influencing >>>>> people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I think there are >>>>> other social skills that are much more important for having lasting >relationships: >>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>> holding >>> grudges. >>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about social >>>>> interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we can >>>>> make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately using >>>>> blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I fundamentally >>>>> was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >> belong. >>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>> lot of >>> trial and error. >>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but I >>>>> also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>> social competence. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40g >>>>> m >>>>> a >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 17:58:56 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:58:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003b01cf3af8$14a8c920$3dfa5b60$@gmail.com> What are you doing as an employee? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in school, there were no official extended test times but because of the way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. I found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come out of my leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. I decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was a student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that other students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time as an employee? Best regards, Steve Jacobson >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >Green >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >don't demand special treatment. >I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong about this. >I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all >of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, >I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She >teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The >first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was >there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we >were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came >into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching >in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind >person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are >like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the first day of class. >Have a blessed day. >Best, >Melissa R Green and PJ >Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arielle Silverman" >To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >mailing list" >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >Hi Joe, >I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be >offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is >fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. >Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders >the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even >halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >denies me the opportunity to decline. >And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time >on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the >real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the >first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an >accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level >the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address >them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating >policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines >(and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people >including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs >and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special >treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of >course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special accommodations. >It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's >time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. >Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. >Best, >Arielle >On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >> >> First, you write: >> >> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >> that may be true, but usually it's not." >> >> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >> extended the courtesy. >> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >> leave both parties satisfied. >> >> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is >> I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >> >> Next, you write: >> >> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal." >> >> My response: >> >> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public >> buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes >> with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more >> deserving of that courtesy than another." >> >> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >> between true independence and independence according to one's >> convenient definition. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of >> assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that >> courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can >> sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they >> have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. >> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >> simple "how can I help you?" >> query >> would have resolved that problem. >> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >> their gesture without asking. >> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>> Hi Arielle, >>> >>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>> disabilities, and yes, >women. >>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or >>> the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should >fear. >>> It's >> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>> being a guide dog traveler? >>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>> >>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender >>> for that matter, to be courtesies. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>> >>>> >>>> -Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>> repeating every few >> years. >>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>> >>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or >>>>> silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot >>>>> of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because >>>>> of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my >>>>> IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my >>>>> social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>> she likes >>> something". >>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>> skills. >>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>> for having lasting >relationships: >>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>> holding >>> grudges. >>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about >>>>> social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we >>>>> can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >> belong. >>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>> lot of >>> trial and error. >>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>> social competence. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40 >>>>> g >>>>> m >>>>> a >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.c >om >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >gmail >.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat Mar 8 19:00:08 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 13:00:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: <003b01cf3af8$14a8c920$3dfa5b60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, I've been a computer programmer and a computer analyst and am now a "data quality analyst", but it really doesn't matter. If you are a teacher and you can't figure out how to grade papers as quickly as your co-workers, you aren't doing your job. If you are a programmer and you can't generally get your work done to meet a deadline, you are not doing your job. If you are a technical writer and can't deliver the document by the deadline, you are not doing your job. I have been in situations, for example, where I had to provide data for a lawsuit where the data was ordered to be available by a judge. There are times in any job when deadlines are not met. Sometimes they are not realistic, and sometimes sighted people don't meet them, either. However, you can't expect that because you are blind that a deadline will be extended for you because it is usually not an arbitrary deadline. Usually it is set because of some other reason. You will have to figure out how you can be more efficient or how you can take the extra time you need to complete the work on time. I'm not telling you that I can do everything on my job as fast as my co-workers. Some things I can't do as quickly. What I have traditionally done, though, is figured out, usually on my own time, how I could automate certain tasks that my co-workers might have done manually, for example. Sometimes I do have to work extra to get something done on time, but that even happens to sighted employees. It is just a lot different than being a student. Sometimes you actually have more flexibility in how you might accomplish a task, but you can't think that because you are blind that a deadline should be extended for that reason. The academic environment is artificial in some ways where blind people are concerned. We have DSS offices to convert materials and extended test times. If worse comes to worse and we fail a class, it isn't good, but we can take it again. It is very inconsistent to what degree an employer might offer such things. There isn't a disabled employee office in most cases that will convert materials for you. If you miss a deadline and you don't have a reason other than blindness, you've missed an opportunity that can't just be given again. At the very least, you would need to show that you learned something and won't likely make the same mistakes. If you have ability and your employer sees that, they will cut you some slack, but there isn't the same right to extended time as there is when you are a student. One's time as a student is a perfect time to start experimenting with some of this because your risk is low. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:58:56 -0500, justin williams wrote: >What are you doing as an employee? >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson >Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times >I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to discuss >the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in school, there >were no official extended test times but because of the way I took tests I >had extra time and I think it was understood that was the case. In other >words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. >I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. I >found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I was >able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please >understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part of what >I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for multiple choice >tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally occurred to me as a >student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am on the job. If I needed >extra time, it would have to come out of my leisure time, and sometimes that >might not even be possible. I decided at some point that I needed to work >on efficiency when I was a student because it would be harder to do that on >the job. I changed my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on >testing that other students had, although I excluded the time it took to >convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. >So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable and >even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where you have >extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time as an >employee? >Best regards, >Steve Jacobson >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >>Green >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >>feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >>Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >>waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >>me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >>don't demand special treatment. >>I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >>just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >>that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong >about this. >>I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >>that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all >>of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, >>I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She >>teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The >>first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was >>there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we >>were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came >>into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >>accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >>was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching >>in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind >>person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are >>like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the >first day of class. >>Have a blessed day. >>Best, >>Melissa R Green and PJ >>Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Arielle Silverman" >>To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >>mailing list" >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>Hi Joe, >>I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be >>offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is >>fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >>any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >>responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >>we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. >>Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >>to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders >>the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even >>halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >>anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >>out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >>asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >>and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >>them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >>Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >>and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >>But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >>tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >>denies me the opportunity to decline. >>And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time >>on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the >>real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the >>first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an >>accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level >>the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >>Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >>was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >>It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >>accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >>people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address >>them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating >>policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines >>(and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people >>including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >>philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs >>and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special >>treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of >>course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be >accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special >accommodations. >>It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >>accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >>I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >>treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >>accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >>some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's >>time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself >as a competent person. >>Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >>the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >>right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. >>Best, >>Arielle >>On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> >>> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >>> >>> First, you write: >>> >>> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >>> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >>> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >>> that may be true, but usually it's not." >>> >>> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >>> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >>> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >>> extended the courtesy. >>> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >>> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >>> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >>> leave both parties satisfied. >>> >>> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >>> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >>> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >>> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >>> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >>> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is >>> I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >>> >>> Next, you write: >>> >>> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >>> that social goal." >>> >>> My response: >>> >>> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >>> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >>> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >>> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >>> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >>> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >>> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >>> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >>> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >>> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public >>> buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes >>> with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more >>> deserving of that courtesy than another." >>> >>> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >>> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >>> between true independence and independence according to one's >>> convenient definition. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >>> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >>> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >>> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >>> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >>> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >>> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of >>> assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that >>> courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can >>> sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they >>> have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than >they. >>> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >>> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >>> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >>> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >>> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >>> simple "how can I help you?" >>> query >>> would have resolved that problem. >>> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >>> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >>> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >>> their gesture without asking. >>> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >>> that social goal. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>>> Hi Arielle, >>>> >>>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>>> disabilities, and yes, >>women. >>>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or >>>> the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should >>fear. >>>> It's >>> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>> Silverman >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>>> being a guide dog traveler? >>>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>>> >>>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender >>>> for that matter, to be courtesies. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -Anjelina >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>>> repeating every few >>> years. >>>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or >>>>>> silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot >>>>>> of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because >>>>>> of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my >>>>>> IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my >>>>>> social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>>> she likes >>>> something". >>>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>>> skills. >>>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>>> for having lasting >>relationships: >>>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>>> holding >>>> grudges. >>>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about >>>>>> social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we >>>>>> can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, >charismatic person. >>>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >>> belong. >>>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>>> lot of >>>> trial and error. >>>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>>> social competence. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40 >>>>>> g >>>>>> m >>>>>> a >>>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.c >>om >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >>gmail >>.com >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >>si.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 19:41:02 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 14:41:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: References: <003b01cf3af8$14a8c920$3dfa5b60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000501cf3b06$57495520$05dbff60$@gmail.com> I guess that would be dependent upon the job. Maybe a good mentor in the field to give you some hints and ideas as to how best to accomplish certain parts of the job. You seem to be quite skilled; I'd be coming to you for stuff Steve. Everything you just said was accurate. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 2:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times Justin, I've been a computer programmer and a computer analyst and am now a "data quality analyst", but it really doesn't matter. If you are a teacher and you can't figure out how to grade papers as quickly as your co-workers, you aren't doing your job. If you are a programmer and you can't generally get your work done to meet a deadline, you are not doing your job. If you are a technical writer and can't deliver the document by the deadline, you are not doing your job. I have been in situations, for example, where I had to provide data for a lawsuit where the data was ordered to be available by a judge. There are times in any job when deadlines are not met. Sometimes they are not realistic, and sometimes sighted people don't meet them, either. However, you can't expect that because you are blind that a deadline will be extended for you because it is usually not an arbitrary deadline. Usually it is set because of some other reason. You will have to figure out how you can be more efficient or how you can take the extra time you need to complete the work on time. I'm not telling you that I can do everything on my job as fast as my co-workers. Some things I can't do as quickly. What I have traditionally done, though, is figured out, usually on my own time, how I could automate certain tasks that my co-workers might have done manually, for example. Sometimes I do have to work extra to get something done on time, but that even happens to sighted employees. It is just a lot different than being a student. Sometimes you actually have more flexibility in how you might accomplish a task, but you can't think that because you are blind that a deadline should be extended for that reason. The academic environment is artificial in some ways where blind people are concerned. We have DSS offices to convert materials and extended test times. If worse comes to worse and we fail a class, it isn't good, but we can take it again. It is very inconsistent to what degree an employer might offer such things. There isn't a disabled employee office in most cases that will convert materials for you. If you miss a deadline and you don't have a reason other than blindness, you've missed an opportunity that can't just be given again. At the very least, you would need to show that you learned something and won't likely make the same mistakes. If you have ability and your employer sees that, they will cut you some slack, but there isn't the same right to extended time as there is when you are a student. One's time as a student is a perfect time to start experimenting with some of this because your risk is low. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:58:56 -0500, justin williams wrote: >What are you doing as an employee? >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve >Jacobson >Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times >I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to >discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in >school, there were no official extended test times but because of the >way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that >was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. >I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in >them. I found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have >because I was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the >tests. Please understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it >is just part of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra >time for multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It >finally occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time >when I am on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come >out of my leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. >I decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was >a student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed >my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that other >students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. >So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable >and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where >you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time >as an employee? >Best regards, >Steve Jacobson >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >>Green >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >>feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >>Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >>waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >>me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >>don't demand special treatment. >>I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >>just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >>that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be >>wrong >about this. >>I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >>that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands >>all of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For >>example, I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. >>She teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. >>The first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I >>was there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this >>week we were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person >>who came into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >>accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >>was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be >>teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with >>a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind >>people are like that person. Usually blind students contact >>professors before the >first day of class. >>Have a blessed day. >>Best, >>Melissa R Green and PJ >>Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Arielle Silverman" >>To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >>mailing list" >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>Hi Joe, >>I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never >>be offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it >>is fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >>any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >>responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >>we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. >>Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >>to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver >>orders the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am >>even halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >>anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >>out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >>asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >>and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >>them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >>Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >>and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >>But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >>tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >>denies me the opportunity to decline. >>And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra >>time on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't >>address the real problems that would be causing kids to need extra >>time in the first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra >>time is an accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to >>try to level the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >>Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >>was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >>It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >>accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >>people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to >>address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in >>advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the >>front lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind >>people including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >>philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real >>needs and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that >>special treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. >>Of course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be >accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special >accommodations. >>It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >>accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >>I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >>treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >>accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >>some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other >>people's time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or >>perception of oneself >as a competent person. >>Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >>the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >>right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. >>Best, >>Arielle >>On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> >>> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >>> >>> First, you write: >>> >>> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >>> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >>> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >>> that may be true, but usually it's not." >>> >>> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >>> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, >>> than you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had >>> just extended the courtesy. >>> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >>> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >>> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >>> leave both parties satisfied. >>> >>> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >>> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >>> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >>> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >>> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >>> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it >>> is I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >>> >>> Next, you write: >>> >>> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes >>> with that social goal." >>> >>> My response: >>> >>> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness >>> is still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to >>> give the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on >>> face, then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's >>> your right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but >>> giving you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not >>> receive. We should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because >>> other vendors can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're >>> talking about buses, we should eliminate special transit services >>> since people with disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able >>> to use public buses just like anyone else. As you yourself >>> acknowledge "it comes with some kind of assumption about why one >>> group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than another." >>> >>> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >>> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >>> between true independence and independence according to one's >>> convenient definition. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >>> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >>> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >>> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >>> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >>> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >>> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind >>> of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of >>> that courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I >>> can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because >>> they have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat >>> more than >they. >>> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >>> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >>> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >>> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >>> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >>> simple "how can I help you?" >>> query >>> would have resolved that problem. >>> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >>> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >>> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >>> their gesture without asking. >>> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes >>> with that social goal. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>>> Hi Arielle, >>>> >>>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard >>>> to basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but >>>> you get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than >>>> the norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>>> disabilities, and yes, >>women. >>>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, >>>> or the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was >>>> her pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone >>>> was nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we >>>> should >>fear. >>>> It's >>> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something >>>> in there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>>> being a guide dog traveler? >>>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's >>>> usually because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for >>>> a back seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them >>>> verbally point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>>> >>>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my >>>> gender for that matter, to be courtesies. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went >>>>> through similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to >>>>> talk to so many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -Anjelina >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>>> repeating every few >>> years. >>>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and >>>>>> want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my >>>>>> house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were >>>>>> childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was >>>>>> one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that >>>>>> because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were >>>>>> goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that >>>>>> dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals >>>>>> like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>>> she likes >>>> something". >>>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she >>>>>> wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave >>>>>> was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>>> skills. >>>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>>> for having lasting >>relationships: >>>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>>> holding >>>> grudges. >>>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in >>>>>> the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I >>>>>> think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming >>>>>> friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell >>>>>> me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can >>>>>> learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage >>>>>> in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things >>>>>> that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so >>>>>> we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we >>>>>> still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it >>>>>> seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills >>>>>> when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but >>>>>> chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, >charismatic person. >>>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >>> belong. >>>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>>> lot of >>>> trial and error. >>>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them >>>>>> opportunities to make friends and have real social >>>>>> encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on >>>>>> a narrow definition of social competence. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%4 >>>>>> 0 >>>>>> g >>>>>> m >>>>>> a >>>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>c >>om >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>0 >>gmail >>.com >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v >>i >>si.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >gmail >.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 21:01:15 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 14:01:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: <000501cf3b06$57495520$05dbff60$@gmail.com> References: <003b01cf3af8$14a8c920$3dfa5b60$@gmail.com> <000501cf3b06$57495520$05dbff60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think Steve makes an excellent point. Also, I think it's important to distinguish between extra time needed to set up the technology or to communicate with a test reader, vs. extra time spent agonizing over questions because you can't figure out the answers. I heard somewhere that on multiple-choice tests, 85% of people get the answer right on their first gut-reaction answer. My experience has been that when I used extra time it was usually spent trying to agonize over questions I really wasn't prepared to answer. For example, I was given extra time to solve problems involving tactile diagrams but it just took me a second to feel the diagram. The rest of that time was spent going over it repeatedly because I couldn't figure out what it was trying to show, which was probably a combination of poorly made diagrams and inadequate training in reading them. The extra time didn't improve my performance and didn't help me get better at reading the diagrams; in fact it just left me cranky and discouraged. If you are requiring extra time a lot, it may be worth considering whether you really understand the material and whether the test is provided in the best possible format. Fixing one or both of these problems will probably limit your need for extra time considerably while also improving your grades and your morale. Arielle On 3/8/14, justin williams wrote: > I guess that would be dependent upon the job. Maybe a good mentor in the > field to give you some hints and ideas as to how best to accomplish certain > parts of the job. You seem to be quite skilled; I'd be coming to you for > stuff Steve. Everything you just said was accurate. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 2:00 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times > > Justin, > > I've been a computer programmer and a computer analyst and am now a "data > quality analyst", but it really doesn't matter. If you are a teacher and > you can't figure out how to grade papers as quickly as your co-workers, you > aren't doing your job. If you are a programmer and you can't generally get > your work done to meet a deadline, you are not doing your job. If you are > a > technical writer and can't deliver the document by the deadline, you are > not > doing your job. I have been in situations, for example, where I had to > provide data for a lawsuit where the data was ordered to be available by a > judge. > > There are times in any job when deadlines are not met. Sometimes they are > not realistic, and sometimes sighted people don't meet them, either. > However, you can't expect that because you are blind that a deadline will > be > extended for you because it is usually not an arbitrary deadline. Usually > it is set because of some other reason. You will have to figure out how > you > can be more efficient or how you can take the extra time you need to > complete the work on time. I'm not telling you that I can do everything on > my job as fast as my co-workers. Some things I can't do as quickly. What > I > have traditionally done, though, is figured out, usually on my own time, > how > I could automate certain tasks that my co-workers might have done manually, > for example. Sometimes I do have to work extra to get something done on > time, but that even happens to sighted employees. It is just a lot > different than being a student. Sometimes you actually have more > flexibility in how you might accomplish a task, but you can't think that > because you are blind that a deadline should be extended for that reason. > The academic environment is artificial in some ways where blind people are > concerned. We have DSS offices to convert materials and extended test > times. If worse comes to worse and we fail a class, it isn't good, but we > can take it again. It is very inconsistent to what degree an employer > might > offer such things. There isn't a disabled employee office in most cases > that will convert materials for you. If you miss a deadline and you don't > have a reason other than blindness, you've missed an opportunity that can't > just be given again. At the very least, you would need to show that you > learned something and won't likely make the same mistakes. If you have > ability and your employer sees that, they will cut you some slack, but > there > isn't the same right to extended time as there is when you are a student. > One's time as a student is a perfect time to start experimenting with some > of this because your risk is low. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:58:56 -0500, justin williams wrote: > >>What are you doing as an employee? > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve >>Jacobson >>Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times > >>I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to >>discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in >>school, there were no official extended test times but because of the >>way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that >>was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all concerned > knowing that was the case. >>I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in >>them. I found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have >>because I was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the >>tests. Please understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it >>is just part of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra >>time for multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It >>finally occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time >>when I am on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come >>out of my leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. >>I decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was >>a student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed >>my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that other >>students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert the test >> into > an accessible format and convert my answers back. > >>So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable >>and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where >>you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time >>as an employee? > >>Best regards, > >>Steve Jacobson > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >>>Green >>>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > >>>there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >>>feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >>>Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >>>waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >>>me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >>>don't demand special treatment. >>>I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >>>just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >>>that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be >>>wrong >>about this. >>>I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >>>that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands >>>all of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For >>>example, I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. >>>She teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. >>>The first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I >>>was there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this >>>week we were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person >>>who came into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >>>accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >>>was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be >>>teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with >>>a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind >>>people are like that person. Usually blind students contact >>>professors before the >>first day of class. >>>Have a blessed day. >>>Best, >>>Melissa R Green and PJ >>>Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. > >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >>>mailing list" >>>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > >>>Hi Joe, > >>>I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never >>>be offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it >>>is fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >>>any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >>>responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >>>we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. > >>>Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >>>to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver >>>orders the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am >>>even halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >>>anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >>>out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >>>asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >>>and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >>>them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >>>Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >>>and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >>>But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >>>tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >>>denies me the opportunity to decline. > >>>And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra >>>time on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't >>>address the real problems that would be causing kids to need extra >>>time in the first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra >>>time is an accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to >>>try to level the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation > for us. >>>Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >>>was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >>>It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >>>accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >>>people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to >>>address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in >>>advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the >>>front lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind >>>people including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >>>philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real >>>needs and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that >>>special treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. >>>Of course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be >>accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special >>accommodations. >>>It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >>>accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >>>I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >>>treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >>>accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >>>some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other >>>people's time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or >>>perception of oneself >>as a competent person. >>>Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >>>the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >>>right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. > >>>Best, >>>Arielle > >>>On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> >>>> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >>>> >>>> First, you write: >>>> >>>> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >>>> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >>>> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >>>> that may be true, but usually it's not." >>>> >>>> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >>>> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, >>>> than you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had >>>> just extended the courtesy. >>>> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >>>> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >>>> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >>>> leave both parties satisfied. >>>> >>>> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >>>> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >>>> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >>>> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >>>> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >>>> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it >>>> is I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't > educate. >>>> >>>> Next, you write: >>>> >>>> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes >>>> with that social goal." >>>> >>>> My response: >>>> >>>> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >>>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness >>>> is still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to >>>> give the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on >>>> face, then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's >>>> your right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but >>>> giving you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not >>>> receive. We should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because >>>> other vendors can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're >>>> talking about buses, we should eliminate special transit services >>>> since people with disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able >>>> to use public buses just like anyone else. As you yourself >>>> acknowledge "it comes with some kind of assumption about why one >>>> group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than another." >>>> >>>> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >>>> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >>>> between true independence and independence according to one's >>>> convenient definition. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>>> mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>> >>>> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >>>> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >>>> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >>>> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >>>> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >>>> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >>>> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind >>>> of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of >>>> that courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I >>>> can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because >>>> they have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat >>>> more than >>they. >>>> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >>>> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >>>> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >>>> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >>>> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >>>> simple "how can I help you?" >>>> query >>>> would have resolved that problem. >>>> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >>>> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >>>> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >>>> their gesture without asking. >>>> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes >>>> with that social goal. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>>>> Hi Arielle, >>>>> >>>>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>>>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard >>>>> to basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but >>>>> you get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than >>>>> the norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>>>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>>>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>>>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>>>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>>>> disabilities, and yes, >>>women. >>>>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>>>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, >>>>> or the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was >>>>> her pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone >>>>> was nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we >>>>> should >>>fear. >>>>> It's >>>> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something >>>>> in there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>>>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>>>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>>>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>>>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>>>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>>>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>>>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>>>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>>>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>>>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>>>> being a guide dog traveler? >>>>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's >>>>> usually because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for >>>>> a back seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them >>>>> verbally point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats > for me. >>>>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>>>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>>>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>>>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>>>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>>>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>>>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>>>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>>>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my >>>>> gender for that matter, to be courtesies. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went >>>>>> through similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to >>>>>> talk to so many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -Anjelina >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>>>> repeating every few >>>> years. >>>>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and >>>>>>> want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my >>>>>>> house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were >>>>>>> childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was >>>>>>> one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that >>>>>>> because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were >>>>>>> goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that >>>>>>> dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my > progress. >>>>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals >>>>>>> like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their > day". >>>>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>>>> she likes >>>>> something". >>>>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she >>>>>>> wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave >>>>>>> was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>>>> skills. >>>>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>>>> for having lasting >>>relationships: >>>>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>>>> holding >>>>> grudges. >>>>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in >>>>>>> the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I >>>>>>> think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming >>>>>>> friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell >>>>>>> me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can >>>>>>> learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and >>>>>>> sharing > with others. >>>>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage >>>>>>> in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things >>>>>>> that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so >>>>>>> we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend > in. >>>>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we >>>>>>> still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it >>>>>>> seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills >>>>>>> when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but >>>>>>> chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, >>charismatic person. >>>>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >>>> belong. >>>>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>>>> lot of >>>>> trial and error. >>>>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them >>>>>>> opportunities to make friends and have real social >>>>>>> encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on >>>>>>> a narrow definition of social competence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%4 >>>>>>> 0 >>>>>>> g >>>>>>> m >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>>> c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>>c >>>om > > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>0 >>>gmail >>>.com > > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v >>>i >>>si.com > > > > > > > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >>gmail >>.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >>si.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 21:05:32 2014 From: pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 13:05:32 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Great news Message-ID: <531b863e.e7ed440a.5c5c.ffffde61@mx.google.com> Hey guys, Have you ever heard of River Flows in You by Yiruma? Well, I learned it and am playing it for the school's tallent show, which I auditiond for and got in. Well, it turns out that it is a grade four piece of music. All I need to work on, (in the school's theatre), is the timing of the pedal. From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 21:08:55 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 16:08:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Great news In-Reply-To: <531b863e.e7ed440a.5c5c.ffffde61@mx.google.com> References: <531b863e.e7ed440a.5c5c.ffffde61@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <001c01cf3b12$9e47f600$dad7e200$@gmail.com> Good job. Outstanding. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marissa Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 4:06 PM To: Nabsl Subject: [nabs-l] Great news Hey guys, Have you ever heard of River Flows in You by Yiruma? Well, I learned it and am playing it for the school's tallent show, which I auditiond for and got in. Well, it turns out that it is a grade four piece of music. All I need to work on, (in the school's theatre), is the timing of the pedal. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 21:12:48 2014 From: pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 13:12:48 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Great news Message-ID: <531b87f2.2587440a.7709.fffffbc0@mx.google.com> I never had sheet music. Just one youtube video that said all the notes. Took me bout tyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you thanks a lot for helping me in trying to find Lorenzo’s oil and Peroxisomes Movie! I really appreciate it a lot! In fact, I just wanted to tell you that I with the help of some of you here, I actually got the movie in descriptive audio! And I actually watch it last night! So now I’m getting ready to probably write my extra credit 10 sentences or more paper, which is regarding my opinion and perhaps what I felt when I watched it. Would it be possible for me to send you my 10 sentences or more paper off list in order for you to see it and give me your opinion, and tell me what should I improve on it? And if you can, only if you did a paper or something like that regarding the movie, could you send it to me off list in order for me to get an idea of how can I start my paper? Only if you want of course! And the reason I wanted to be off list, is because I really don’t want to clutter the list with off topic subjects. And thank you again for helping me find the movie in descriptive audio! Just to let you know, the MP3 link of the movie is going to be below in order for you to see it. You actually need to downloaded first, and then copy and paste it to some folder that you like, but before you press enter on it, you need to go to the application menu key, and select play with windows media player. And the reason I’m saying that is because if you don’t do that, it will play automatically in the music app of your computer, and then you would not be able to stop it by yourself! I really like this movie a lot! And for those of you who don’t know, it is actually a true story! Hope you like it! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much for listening to me! https://www.dropbox.com/s/ze2l1fabuyedr2v/Lorenzo%27s%20oil%20%281992%29.mp3 P.S. I forgot to ask you, my mom is trying to find the Lorenzo’s Oil and Peroxisomes movie without descriptive audio but she can’t find it in youtube. In youtube is only the trailer of the movie not the entire movie! In fact, she actually find the movie in Amazon, and it was an option where she can rent the movie by two dollars or so, but it say there that it has to do with instant video. Do you ever rent a movie in Amazon before? And if you did, how does it work? I really didn’t do that before! Also, I know that in order to get movies from Netflex, you have to pay 8 dollars membrship every month, but I just wanted to ask you, if I get movies from Netflex send to my house are they free, rather than just watching them online? Or do I have to be a member in order for the movies to come to my house? I’m just wondering, since she actually found the movie in Netflex by searching online. But just to let you know, I’m not a member of Netflex! I will really appreciate it if you could help me with this. Sorry, sorry, for asking you all these questions! Thanks again! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-winkingsmile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1135 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jsoro620 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 21:46:10 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 16:46:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003001cf3b17$d24ad580$76e08080$@gmail.com> In a couple weeks I'll be taking a foreign language proficiency exam for my job. The administrator was appalled that I would request a reader/scribe, but not double time or time and a half. In this case the battle was not worth escalating, so we compromised on time and a half and not make use of the extra time if I didn't need it. The nature of the exam is such that either I will know the material, or I won't, and if you think about it, that is usually the case with all exams. The irony is of course that in a real world operation where my foreign language is tested, I would not have extra time to complete the tasking. My best advice to students is to get into the habit of not making use of the extra allotment. You'll be more efficient, and while in the short-term you might feel more pressure to perform well under tighter time constraints, in the long run you'll perform better because you've trained your brain to push forward with less second guesses. In the end, it's those pesky second guesses that wear you down more than the content itself. Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in school, there were no official extended test times but because of the way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. I found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come out of my leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. I decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was a student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that other students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time as an employee? Best regards, Steve Jacobson >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >Green >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >don't demand special treatment. >I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong about this. >I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all >of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, >I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She >teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The >first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was >there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we >were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came >into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching >in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind >person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are >like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the first day of class. >Have a blessed day. >Best, >Melissa R Green and PJ >Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arielle Silverman" >To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >mailing list" >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >Hi Joe, >I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be >offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is >fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. >Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders >the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even >halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >denies me the opportunity to decline. >And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time >on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the >real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the >first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an >accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level >the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address >them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating >policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines >(and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people >including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs >and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special >treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of >course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special accommodations. >It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's >time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. >Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. >Best, >Arielle >On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >> >> First, you write: >> >> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >> that may be true, but usually it's not." >> >> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >> extended the courtesy. >> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >> leave both parties satisfied. >> >> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is >> I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >> >> Next, you write: >> >> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal." >> >> My response: >> >> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public >> buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes >> with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more >> deserving of that courtesy than another." >> >> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >> between true independence and independence according to one's >> convenient definition. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of >> assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that >> courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can >> sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they >> have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. >> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >> simple "how can I help you?" >> query >> would have resolved that problem. >> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >> their gesture without asking. >> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>> Hi Arielle, >>> >>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>> disabilities, and yes, >women. >>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or >>> the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should >fear. >>> It's >> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>> being a guide dog traveler? >>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>> >>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender >>> for that matter, to be courtesies. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>> >>>> >>>> -Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>> repeating every few >> years. >>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>> >>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or >>>>> silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot >>>>> of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because >>>>> of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my >>>>> IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my >>>>> social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>> she likes >>> something". >>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>> skills. >>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>> for having lasting >relationships: >>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>> holding >>> grudges. >>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about >>>>> social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we >>>>> can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >> belong. >>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>> lot of >>> trial and error. >>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>> social competence. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40 >>>>> g >>>>> m >>>>> a >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.c >om >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >gmail >.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 22:00:05 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 15:00:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility presentation in my computing ethics class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Suzanne, The NFB Braille and Technology Center has developed detailed standards for Web accessibility. I would suggest calling them at 410-659-9314 and asking to speak with Ann Taylor, or emailing her at ataylor at nfb.org Best, Arielle On 3/7/14, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I am a legally blind computer science student at Arizona State University. > I am currently taking a course in computing ethics. I chose to do my > presentation on computing and the disabled. There are only a couple of > pages in our text about it that talk about accessibility but also talk > about companies deciding not to provide accommodation becasue technology > now allows employees to work remote. > > I will be researching the subject but I know that the people on these lists > have vast knowledge so I thought this was the perfect place to ask > questions. I am a user of mac zoom and zoontext so I dont' know a lot about > the specific accessibility issues when using JAWS > > So here are some of my questions. Also feel free to offer information on > anything I may have left outs. > > What do software developers need to do to ensure the software they develop > is accessible via a screen reader? > Is is just things like in visual studio setting the Accessibility > Properties of a control like a combo box? > When I use ZoomText the insertion point is tracked in some software but not > others. What needs to be done to allow tracking? Does the software need to > expose something? > What makes a web page accessible vs not accessible with speech? > What have been people's experiences with things like blackboard, or other > sites you are required to use in school to access your class, turn in > assignments, take online quizzes/tests etc. > Where can a developer go to learn about requirements for accessibility, > what makes a program or webpage more accessible > Does anyone have experience on the job in which a program you were using > was accessible but they came out with a new version that was no longer > accessible? Specific examples would be really helpful > What laws exist concerning accessibility to computers, software etc? > I would really love to show a demo of someone who is really experienced > with JAWS especially someone who works in the computer science field. Would > any one be willing to provide me with a short video of you working so the > students can see how we work in the field? I would provide a link to my > dropbox for the video. I can do any required editing. > > After I present to the class, I am planning on providing my presentation to > the dean of computer science and explain why I believe accessibility should > be taught from the beginning to computer science students. If they learn to > at least think about it when learning to develop software I believe they > will be more likely to do it in practice. I believe most people don't even > think about since it does not affect them or anyone they know. > > I also think it would be really cool for the disabled student resource > center to partner with the computer science department to set up a list of > volunteers who are users on screen readers to sit with students and test > the accessibility of their code as a learning experience. > > Thank you in advance for your help > Suzanne > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 22:06:19 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:06:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: <003001cf3b17$d24ad580$76e08080$@gmail.com> References: <003001cf3b17$d24ad580$76e08080$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401cf3b1a$a2892880$e79b7980$@gmail.com> Jow is right; some of this is just training. I think of time in a half is a balance point. Just one small benefit in a situation which usually leaves me at a disadvantage. My disability office finally caught up to me and my self and the professors in my department solved somd of my accessibility issues. I had to double time my efforts the first month to month and a half of the semester. Just don't think as if you have time in a half, but if you need it, it is there. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 4:46 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In a couple weeks I'll be taking a foreign language proficiency exam for my job. The administrator was appalled that I would request a reader/scribe, but not double time or time and a half. In this case the battle was not worth escalating, so we compromised on time and a half and not make use of the extra time if I didn't need it. The nature of the exam is such that either I will know the material, or I won't, and if you think about it, that is usually the case with all exams. The irony is of course that in a real world operation where my foreign language is tested, I would not have extra time to complete the tasking. My best advice to students is to get into the habit of not making use of the extra allotment. You'll be more efficient, and while in the short-term you might feel more pressure to perform well under tighter time constraints, in the long run you'll perform better because you've trained your brain to push forward with less second guesses. In the end, it's those pesky second guesses that wear you down more than the content itself. Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in school, there were no official extended test times but because of the way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. I found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come out of my leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. I decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was a student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that other students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time as an employee? Best regards, Steve Jacobson >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >Green >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >don't demand special treatment. >I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be >wrong about this. >I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all >of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, >I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She >teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The >first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was >there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we >were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came >into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching >in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind >person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are >like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the first day of class. >Have a blessed day. >Best, >Melissa R Green and PJ >Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arielle Silverman" >To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >mailing list" >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >Hi Joe, >I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be >offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is >fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. >Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders >the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even >halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >denies me the opportunity to decline. >And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time >on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the >real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the >first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an >accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level >the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address >them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating >policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines >(and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people >including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs >and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special >treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of >course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special accommodations. >It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's >time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of >oneself as a competent person. >Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. >Best, >Arielle >On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >> >> First, you write: >> >> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >> that may be true, but usually it's not." >> >> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >> extended the courtesy. >> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >> leave both parties satisfied. >> >> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is >> I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >> >> Next, you write: >> >> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal." >> >> My response: >> >> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public >> buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes >> with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more >> deserving of that courtesy than another." >> >> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >> between true independence and independence according to one's >> convenient definition. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of >> assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that >> courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can >> sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they >> have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. >> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >> simple "how can I help you?" >> query >> would have resolved that problem. >> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >> their gesture without asking. >> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>> Hi Arielle, >>> >>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>> disabilities, and yes, >women. >>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or >>> the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should >fear. >>> It's >> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>> being a guide dog traveler? >>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>> >>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender >>> for that matter, to be courtesies. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>> >>>> >>>> -Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>> repeating every few >> years. >>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>> >>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or >>>>> silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot >>>>> of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because >>>>> of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my >>>>> IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my >>>>> social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>> she likes >>> something". >>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>> skills. >>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>> for having lasting >relationships: >>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>> holding >>> grudges. >>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about >>>>> social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we >>>>> can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >> belong. >>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>> lot of >>> trial and error. >>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>> social competence. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40 >>>>> g >>>>> m >>>>> a >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.c >om >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >gmail >.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 8 22:16:11 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:16:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: References: <003b01cf3af8$14a8c920$3dfa5b60$@gmail.com><000501cf3b06$57495520$05dbff60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C6D3BB37FB4CB3AAECE02428C5AF58@OwnerPC> Hi, well, I think its fair to have extra time considering we cannot use our prefered format; for me its braille as that gives me the ability to read and remember it best. I have to have questions often reread for multiple choice tests since I have eliminated a few answers on the first try. The second time, I can better listen for the correct answer after eliminating some. I have had extended time always. But generally, I use it for multiple choice tests, but other formats such as short answer and essay tests don't take me more time. As for work, I think its apples and oranges. you do not have tests often at work, except for continuing education; even then, mostly, you go to workshops and seminars; no long exams. You have your eight hours to work. Most workers actually do not spend those hours working; I've read that maybe half that time is working. Other times its surfing the internet, making online purchases, or gossiping with coworkers In my conversations with blind employees, time is typically not an issue. They might have to sometimes work through lunch at their desk, but they seem to get their work done. So point being at work your extended time is already built in and if you needed more time, I guess you could take it home or ask for it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 4:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times I think Steve makes an excellent point. Also, I think it's important to distinguish between extra time needed to set up the technology or to communicate with a test reader, vs. extra time spent agonizing over questions because you can't figure out the answers. I heard somewhere that on multiple-choice tests, 85% of people get the answer right on their first gut-reaction answer. My experience has been that when I used extra time it was usually spent trying to agonize over questions I really wasn't prepared to answer. For example, I was given extra time to solve problems involving tactile diagrams but it just took me a second to feel the diagram. The rest of that time was spent going over it repeatedly because I couldn't figure out what it was trying to show, which was probably a combination of poorly made diagrams and inadequate training in reading them. The extra time didn't improve my performance and didn't help me get better at reading the diagrams; in fact it just left me cranky and discouraged. If you are requiring extra time a lot, it may be worth considering whether you really understand the material and whether the test is provided in the best possible format. Fixing one or both of these problems will probably limit your need for extra time considerably while also improving your grades and your morale. Arielle On 3/8/14, justin williams wrote: > I guess that would be dependent upon the job. Maybe a good mentor in the > field to give you some hints and ideas as to how best to accomplish > certain > parts of the job. You seem to be quite skilled; I'd be coming to you for > stuff Steve. Everything you just said was accurate. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve > Jacobson > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 2:00 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times > > Justin, > > I've been a computer programmer and a computer analyst and am now a "data > quality analyst", but it really doesn't matter. If you are a teacher and > you can't figure out how to grade papers as quickly as your co-workers, > you > aren't doing your job. If you are a programmer and you can't generally > get > your work done to meet a deadline, you are not doing your job. If you are > a > technical writer and can't deliver the document by the deadline, you are > not > doing your job. I have been in situations, for example, where I had to > provide data for a lawsuit where the data was ordered to be available by a > judge. > > There are times in any job when deadlines are not met. Sometimes they are > not realistic, and sometimes sighted people don't meet them, either. > However, you can't expect that because you are blind that a deadline will > be > extended for you because it is usually not an arbitrary deadline. Usually > it is set because of some other reason. You will have to figure out how > you > can be more efficient or how you can take the extra time you need to > complete the work on time. I'm not telling you that I can do everything > on > my job as fast as my co-workers. Some things I can't do as quickly. What > I > have traditionally done, though, is figured out, usually on my own time, > how > I could automate certain tasks that my co-workers might have done > manually, > for example. Sometimes I do have to work extra to get something done on > time, but that even happens to sighted employees. It is just a lot > different than being a student. Sometimes you actually have more > flexibility in how you might accomplish a task, but you can't think that > because you are blind that a deadline should be extended for that reason. > The academic environment is artificial in some ways where blind people are > concerned. We have DSS offices to convert materials and extended test > times. If worse comes to worse and we fail a class, it isn't good, but we > can take it again. It is very inconsistent to what degree an employer > might > offer such things. There isn't a disabled employee office in most cases > that will convert materials for you. If you miss a deadline and you don't > have a reason other than blindness, you've missed an opportunity that > can't > just be given again. At the very least, you would need to show that you > learned something and won't likely make the same mistakes. If you have > ability and your employer sees that, they will cut you some slack, but > there > isn't the same right to extended time as there is when you are a student. > One's time as a student is a perfect time to start experimenting with some > of this because your risk is low. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:58:56 -0500, justin williams wrote: > >>What are you doing as an employee? > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve >>Jacobson >>Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times > >>I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to >>discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in >>school, there were no official extended test times but because of the >>way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that >>was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all concerned > knowing that was the case. >>I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in >>them. I found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have >>because I was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the >>tests. Please understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it >>is just part of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra >>time for multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It >>finally occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time >>when I am on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come >>out of my leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. >>I decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was >>a student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed >>my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that other >>students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert the test >> into > an accessible format and convert my answers back. > >>So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable >>and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where >>you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time >>as an employee? > >>Best regards, > >>Steve Jacobson > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >>>Green >>>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > >>>there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >>>feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >>>Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >>>waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >>>me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >>>don't demand special treatment. >>>I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >>>just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >>>that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be >>>wrong >>about this. >>>I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >>>that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands >>>all of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For >>>example, I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. >>>She teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. >>>The first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I >>>was there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this >>>week we were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person >>>who came into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >>>accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >>>was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be >>>teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with >>>a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind >>>people are like that person. Usually blind students contact >>>professors before the >>first day of class. >>>Have a blessed day. >>>Best, >>>Melissa R Green and PJ >>>Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. > >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >>>mailing list" >>>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > >>>Hi Joe, > >>>I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never >>>be offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it >>>is fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >>>any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >>>responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >>>we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. > >>>Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >>>to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver >>>orders the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am >>>even halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >>>anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >>>out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >>>asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >>>and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >>>them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >>>Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >>>and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >>>But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >>>tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >>>denies me the opportunity to decline. > >>>And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra >>>time on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't >>>address the real problems that would be causing kids to need extra >>>time in the first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra >>>time is an accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to >>>try to level the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation > for us. >>>Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >>>was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >>>It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >>>accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >>>people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to >>>address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in >>>advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the >>>front lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind >>>people including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >>>philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real >>>needs and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that >>>special treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. >>>Of course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be >>accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special >>accommodations. >>>It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >>>accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >>>I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >>>treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >>>accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >>>some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other >>>people's time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or >>>perception of oneself >>as a competent person. >>>Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >>>the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >>>right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. > >>>Best, >>>Arielle > >>>On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> >>>> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >>>> >>>> First, you write: >>>> >>>> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >>>> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >>>> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >>>> that may be true, but usually it's not." >>>> >>>> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >>>> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, >>>> than you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had >>>> just extended the courtesy. >>>> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >>>> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >>>> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >>>> leave both parties satisfied. >>>> >>>> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >>>> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >>>> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >>>> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >>>> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >>>> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it >>>> is I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't > educate. >>>> >>>> Next, you write: >>>> >>>> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes >>>> with that social goal." >>>> >>>> My response: >>>> >>>> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >>>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness >>>> is still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to >>>> give the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on >>>> face, then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's >>>> your right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but >>>> giving you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not >>>> receive. We should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because >>>> other vendors can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're >>>> talking about buses, we should eliminate special transit services >>>> since people with disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able >>>> to use public buses just like anyone else. As you yourself >>>> acknowledge "it comes with some kind of assumption about why one >>>> group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than another." >>>> >>>> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >>>> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >>>> between true independence and independence according to one's >>>> convenient definition. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>>> mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>> >>>> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >>>> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >>>> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >>>> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >>>> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >>>> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >>>> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind >>>> of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of >>>> that courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I >>>> can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because >>>> they have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat >>>> more than >>they. >>>> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >>>> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >>>> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >>>> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >>>> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >>>> simple "how can I help you?" >>>> query >>>> would have resolved that problem. >>>> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >>>> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >>>> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >>>> their gesture without asking. >>>> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes >>>> with that social goal. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>>>> Hi Arielle, >>>>> >>>>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>>>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard >>>>> to basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but >>>>> you get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than >>>>> the norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>>>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>>>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>>>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>>>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>>>> disabilities, and yes, >>>women. >>>>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>>>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, >>>>> or the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was >>>>> her pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone >>>>> was nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we >>>>> should >>>fear. >>>>> It's >>>> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> >>>>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something >>>>> in there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>>>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>>>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>>>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>>>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>>>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>>>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>>>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>>>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>>>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>>>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>>>> being a guide dog traveler? >>>>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's >>>>> usually because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for >>>>> a back seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them >>>>> verbally point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats > for me. >>>>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>>>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>>>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>>>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>>>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>>>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>>>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>>>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>>>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my >>>>> gender for that matter, to be courtesies. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>>>> Arielle, >>>>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went >>>>>> through similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to >>>>>> talk to so many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -Anjelina >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>>>> repeating every few >>>> years. >>>>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and >>>>>>> want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my >>>>>>> house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were >>>>>>> childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was >>>>>>> one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that >>>>>>> because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were >>>>>>> goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that >>>>>>> dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my > progress. >>>>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals >>>>>>> like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their > day". >>>>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>>>> she likes >>>>> something". >>>>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she >>>>>>> wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave >>>>>>> was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>>>> skills. >>>>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>>>> for having lasting >>>relationships: >>>>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>>>> holding >>>>> grudges. >>>>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in >>>>>>> the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I >>>>>>> think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming >>>>>>> friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell >>>>>>> me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can >>>>>>> learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and >>>>>>> sharing > with others. >>>>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage >>>>>>> in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things >>>>>>> that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so >>>>>>> we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend > in. >>>>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we >>>>>>> still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it >>>>>>> seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills >>>>>>> when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but >>>>>>> chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, >>charismatic person. >>>>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >>>> belong. >>>>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>>>> lot of >>>>> trial and error. >>>>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them >>>>>>> opportunities to make friends and have real social >>>>>>> encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on >>>>>>> a narrow definition of social competence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%4 >>>>>>> 0 >>>>>>> g >>>>>>> m >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>>> c >>>>> om >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>>c >>>om > > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>0 >>>gmail >>>.com > > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v >>>i >>>si.com > > > > > > > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >>gmail >>.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >>si.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Mar 8 23:52:23 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 16:52:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility presentation in my computing ethics class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Arielle I woudl also like individuals personal experiences to give concrete examples of situations like a software upgrade that then makes that software not accessible. On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Suzanne, > The NFB Braille and Technology Center has developed detailed standards > for Web accessibility. I would suggest calling them at > 410-659-9314 > and asking to speak with Ann Taylor, or emailing her at > ataylor at nfb.org > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/7/14, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > I am a legally blind computer science student at Arizona State > University. > > I am currently taking a course in computing ethics. I chose to do my > > presentation on computing and the disabled. There are only a couple of > > pages in our text about it that talk about accessibility but also talk > > about companies deciding not to provide accommodation becasue technology > > now allows employees to work remote. > > > > I will be researching the subject but I know that the people on these > lists > > have vast knowledge so I thought this was the perfect place to ask > > questions. I am a user of mac zoom and zoontext so I dont' know a lot > about > > the specific accessibility issues when using JAWS > > > > So here are some of my questions. Also feel free to offer information on > > anything I may have left outs. > > > > What do software developers need to do to ensure the software they > develop > > is accessible via a screen reader? > > Is is just things like in visual studio setting the Accessibility > > Properties of a control like a combo box? > > When I use ZoomText the insertion point is tracked in some software but > not > > others. What needs to be done to allow tracking? Does the software need > to > > expose something? > > What makes a web page accessible vs not accessible with speech? > > What have been people's experiences with things like blackboard, or other > > sites you are required to use in school to access your class, turn in > > assignments, take online quizzes/tests etc. > > Where can a developer go to learn about requirements for accessibility, > > what makes a program or webpage more accessible > > Does anyone have experience on the job in which a program you were using > > was accessible but they came out with a new version that was no longer > > accessible? Specific examples would be really helpful > > What laws exist concerning accessibility to computers, software etc? > > I would really love to show a demo of someone who is really experienced > > with JAWS especially someone who works in the computer science field. > Would > > any one be willing to provide me with a short video of you working so the > > students can see how we work in the field? I would provide a link to my > > dropbox for the video. I can do any required editing. > > > > After I present to the class, I am planning on providing my presentation > to > > the dean of computer science and explain why I believe accessibility > should > > be taught from the beginning to computer science students. If they learn > to > > at least think about it when learning to develop software I believe they > > will be more likely to do it in practice. I believe most people don't > even > > think about since it does not affect them or anyone they know. > > > > I also think it would be really cool for the disabled student resource > > center to partner with the computer science department to set up a list > of > > volunteers who are users on screen readers to sit with students and test > > the accessibility of their code as a learning experience. > > > > Thank you in advance for your help > > Suzanne > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sun Mar 9 00:24:23 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 19:24:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004201cf3b2d$ee60eb90$cb22c2b0$@net> I have a slightly different outlook on this at the moment because a considerable percentage of my materials are in Braille. I have 100% extended time on my IEP and more time can be allotted if the individual teacher feels I should have it if I still need to finish. I also have 100% extended time on my college board accomidations as well. I generally go maybe up to time and a half on about 99% of my tests if that. This is mainly for producing diagrams such as drawings from a math graphing calculator or things like punnet squares when I was taking biology. When I was making punnet squares, I was gluing bits of paper with letters in the boxes in the square because I didn't realize that I could use excel until after the test for that unit. I also don't really double check multiple choice questions. However, I will proofread short answers and essay questions for spelling and grammar and the like. The one area where I am the most guilty of taking advantage of my extended time is in writing history DBQs, or document based questions that are similar to a portion of the essay questions on the advanced placement test. I write slowly, and generally sit there for a few minutes planning what I will say in my essay. There are generally no diagrams prohibiting me from finishing as fast as the other students. I have the extension on assignments accomidation on my IEP as well, although I really don't use it. The only case where I do use it is when I have to construct a diagram that requires many pieces of paper or other material, such as a punnet square. That's really the only time I recall using that accomidation. I generally don't like using extended time though because I feel like I lose my rhythm when answering questions and I can never get back into it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in school, there were no official extended test times but because of the way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. I found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come out of my leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. I decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was a student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that other students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time as an employee? Best regards, Steve Jacobson >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >Green >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >don't demand special treatment. >I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong about this. >I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all >of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, >I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She >teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The >first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was >there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we >were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came >into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching >in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind >person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are >like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the first day of class. >Have a blessed day. >Best, >Melissa R Green and PJ >Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arielle Silverman" >To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >mailing list" >Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >Hi Joe, >I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be >offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is >fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. >Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders >the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even >halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >denies me the opportunity to decline. >And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time >on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the >real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the >first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an >accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level >the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address >them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating >policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines >(and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people >including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs >and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special >treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of >course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special accommodations. >It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's >time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself as a competent person. >Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. >Best, >Arielle >On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >> Arielle, >> >> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >> >> First, you write: >> >> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >> that may be true, but usually it's not." >> >> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >> extended the courtesy. >> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >> leave both parties satisfied. >> >> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is >> I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >> >> Next, you write: >> >> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal." >> >> My response: >> >> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public >> buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes >> with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more >> deserving of that courtesy than another." >> >> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >> between true independence and independence according to one's >> convenient definition. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >> >> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of >> assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that >> courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can >> sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they >> have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. >> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >> simple "how can I help you?" >> query >> would have resolved that problem. >> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >> their gesture without asking. >> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >> that social goal. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>> Hi Arielle, >>> >>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>> disabilities, and yes, >women. >>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or >>> the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should >fear. >>> It's >> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>> Silverman >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>> being a guide dog traveler? >>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>> >>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender >>> for that matter, to be courtesies. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>> >>>> >>>> -Anjelina >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>> repeating every few >> years. >>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>> >>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or >>>>> silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot >>>>> of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because >>>>> of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my >>>>> IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my >>>>> social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>> she likes >>> something". >>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>> skills. >>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>> for having lasting >relationships: >>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>> holding >>> grudges. >>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about >>>>> social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with others. >>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we >>>>> can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, charismatic person. >>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >> belong. >>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>> lot of >>> trial and error. >>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>> social competence. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40 >>>>> g >>>>> m >>>>> a >>>>> il.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.c >om >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >gmail >.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 00:42:50 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:42:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: <004201cf3b2d$ee60eb90$cb22c2b0$@net> References: <004201cf3b2d$ee60eb90$cb22c2b0$@net> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, I'm not sure I understand your post quite right. Are you saying that you think extended time is justified in your case because you use Braille? Or are you saying that because you use Braille, you don't usually need the extended time unless you have to do something like hand-draw a graph? If it's the former, then I would wonder why extended time should be given for Braille readers? I'm not just asking that of you in particular, but asking more generally why educators seem to agree that Braille users should get even more extended time than large-print users. In general, I think the only time extended time is justified is when the test-taking method is somehow different from the method the student normally uses to complete assignments. For example, if the teacher gives the test in an inaccessible format and the student has to spend time converting it before starting the test. If the student's normal method of completing work takes longer than it does for sighted students, then it seems the priority should be to try to figure out how that method can be made more efficient, not band-aiding the problem with extended time. As Steve pointed out, there are important situations where extended time is not an option since others are depending on us to get work done. In those cases, it seems non-optimal to be relying on a slow method to complete the work. I remember taking standardized tests in Braille during elementary school and my TVI being really impressed because I was able to whiz through the vocab portions without needing any extra time. This should not have been impressive. I learned Braille when I was in preschool and I knew the vocab. That should be the standard all blind students are held to. Arielle On 3/8/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > I have a slightly different outlook on this at the moment because a > considerable percentage of my materials are in Braille. I have 100% > extended > time on my IEP and more time can be allotted if the individual teacher > feels > I should have it if I still need to finish. I also have 100% extended time > on my college board accomidations as well. I generally go maybe up to time > and a half on about 99% of my tests if that. This is mainly for producing > diagrams such as drawings from a math graphing calculator or things like > punnet squares when I was taking biology. When I was making punnet squares, > I was gluing bits of paper with letters in the boxes in the square because > I > didn't realize that I could use excel until after the test for that unit. > I also don't really double check multiple choice questions. However, I will > proofread short answers and essay questions for spelling and grammar and > the > like. The one area where I am the most guilty of taking advantage of my > extended time is in writing history DBQs, or document based questions that > are similar to a portion of the essay questions on the advanced placement > test. I write slowly, and generally sit there for a few minutes planning > what I will say in my essay. There are generally no diagrams prohibiting me > from finishing as fast as the other students. > I have the extension on assignments accomidation on my IEP as well, > although > I really don't use it. The only case where I do use it is when I have to > construct a diagram that requires many pieces of paper or other material, > such as a punnet square. That's really the only time I recall using that > accomidation. > I generally don't like using extended time though because I feel like I > lose > my rhythm when answering questions and I can never get back into it. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times > > I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to > discuss > the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in school, there > were no official extended test times but because of the way I took tests I > had extra time and I think it was understood that was the case. In other > words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. > I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. > I > found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I was > able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please > understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part of > what > I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for multiple choice > tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally occurred to me as a > student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am on the job. If I needed > extra time, it would have to come out of my leisure time, and sometimes > that > might not even be possible. I decided at some point that I needed to work > on efficiency when I was a student because it would be harder to do that on > the job. I changed my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on > testing that other students had, although I excluded the time it took to > convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. > > So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable and > even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where you have > extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time as an > employee? > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >>Green >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > >>there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >>feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >>Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >>waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >>me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >>don't demand special treatment. >>I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >>just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >>that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong > about this. >>I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >>that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all >>of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, >>I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She >>teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The >>first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was >>there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we >>were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came >>into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >>accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >>was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching >>in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind >>person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are >>like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the > first day of class. >>Have a blessed day. >>Best, >>Melissa R Green and PJ >>Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Arielle Silverman" >>To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >>mailing list" >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > >>Hi Joe, > >>I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be >>offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is >>fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >>any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >>responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >>we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. > >>Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >>to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders >>the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even >>halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >>anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >>out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >>asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >>and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >>them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >>Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >>and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >>But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >>tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >>denies me the opportunity to decline. > >>And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time >>on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the >>real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the >>first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an >>accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level >>the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >>Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >>was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >>It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >>accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >>people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address >>them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating >>policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines >>(and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people >>including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >>philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs >>and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special >>treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of >>course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be > accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special > accommodations. >>It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >>accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >>I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >>treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >>accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >>some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's >>time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself > as a competent person. >>Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >>the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >>right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. > >>Best, >>Arielle > >>On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> >>> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >>> >>> First, you write: >>> >>> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >>> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >>> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >>> that may be true, but usually it's not." >>> >>> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >>> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >>> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >>> extended the courtesy. >>> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >>> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >>> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >>> leave both parties satisfied. >>> >>> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >>> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >>> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >>> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >>> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >>> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is >>> I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >>> >>> Next, you write: >>> >>> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >>> that social goal." >>> >>> My response: >>> >>> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >>> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >>> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >>> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >>> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >>> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >>> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >>> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >>> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >>> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public >>> buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes >>> with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more >>> deserving of that courtesy than another." >>> >>> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >>> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >>> between true independence and independence according to one's >>> convenient definition. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >>> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >>> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >>> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >>> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >>> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >>> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of >>> assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that >>> courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can >>> sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they >>> have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than > they. >>> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >>> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >>> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >>> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >>> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >>> simple "how can I help you?" >>> query >>> would have resolved that problem. >>> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >>> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >>> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >>> their gesture without asking. >>> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >>> that social goal. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>>> Hi Arielle, >>>> >>>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>>> disabilities, and yes, >>women. >>>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or >>>> the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should >>fear. >>>> It's >>> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>> Silverman >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>>> being a guide dog traveler? >>>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>>> >>>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender >>>> for that matter, to be courtesies. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -Anjelina >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>>> repeating every few >>> years. >>>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or >>>>>> silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot >>>>>> of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because >>>>>> of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my >>>>>> IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my >>>>>> social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>>> she likes >>>> something". >>>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>>> skills. >>>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>>> for having lasting >>relationships: >>>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>>> holding >>>> grudges. >>>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about >>>>>> social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with >>>>>> others. >>>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we >>>>>> can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, > charismatic person. >>>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >>> belong. >>>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>>> lot of >>>> trial and error. >>>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>>> social competence. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40 >>>>>> g >>>>>> m >>>>>> a >>>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.c >>om > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >>gmail >>.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >>si.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. > net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Sun Mar 9 01:42:35 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 20:42:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Writing Advice for Helga In-Reply-To: <9A389578905D48569C8EA9FB9DDBC9DE@Helga> References: <9A389578905D48569C8EA9FB9DDBC9DE@Helga> Message-ID: Hello Helga, I am not sure what the specific instructions are for your paper. However, there are a few guiding principles you can follow when completing writing assignments. Generally, there is always some kind of introduction, a thesis statement, body paragraphs or sentences to support your thesis, and a conclusion. How long your introduction, supporting details, and conclusion are suppose to be will depend on your specific assignment. It is common for people not to know what to write about when first starting on a writing assignment. If you are having trouble getting started, be sure to read the assignment instructions again to see what your instructor is looking for in this particular assignment. The assignment sheet may provide examples that can help you get started. After reading through the assignment sheet, I usually perform a writing exercise known as free writing. Basically, I take five to ten minutes writing down every thought that comes into my mind. If I cannot think of anything to write about, then I write down that I cannot think of anything to write about during this exercise. Other statements common during this exercise include things like how much this assignment sucks, and the fact that I really do not have anything to say. I find that as I keep writing, the more productive my thoughts become, and I find a few statements I can actually use for my writing assignment. If this exercise sparks some ideas, I will simply continue writing when the time is up. However, sometimes I need to read through what I have just written in order to create more ideas or material for my writing assignment. When I am done with this exercise, I will take all the good thoughts and statements to create a working draft for my assignment. Sometimes you will need to create several drafts before creating a final polished draft that you can turn into your professor. If you think you need more help in completing your writing assignments, there are usually resources available on campus as well as in the community. Resources you may find on campus may include a writing center, tutoring services, and international services for those who speak and write English as a second language. Your college may also provide classes specifically to help students who are struggling with English as a second language you may wish to take to help improve your writing skills. I know each college is different, but I think it would definitely be worthwhile for you to seek out some of these services. Based on what you have posted to the email list, I can tell you are a rather intelligent young woman who is looking to succeed in life. I have no doubt that your thoughts alone would make for a great paper for any of your classes. I think learning how to learn how to get things done without always having to rely on others is an important lesson to learn in college. So do not be afraid to give something a try even if you are not quite sure how well it will turn out in the end. And if you truly feel as though you do not have the skills to succeed, then perhaps you may wish to attend one of the NFB training centers. I hear they are a great place to help build self-confidence and other important skills for success. Anyway, sorry for my long post, but I hope you have found some of what I have said helpful for completing your writing assignments. Best of luck, Elizabeth From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 02:06:19 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 21:06:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times In-Reply-To: References: <004201cf3b2d$ee60eb90$cb22c2b0$@net> Message-ID: <7A2C0A8EA6744C6D951CE86A779D87CB@Helga> Hi Arielle and all, this is Helga. I just wanted to mention, what would happen if the student who is low vision in high school, and loses his or her sight at the age of 16, and he or she is from another country and is still learning the english language, and really needs to learn Braille, since noone taught him or her when he or she was low vision; don't you think that student should need extra time for his or her school assignment or testests to be complete it? I'm just saying this because I lost my sight at the age of 16, and I learned How to read Braille at the age of 16, since noone nor my TVI wanted to teach me Braille at the age of 12 when I was low vision, and I actually came to the U.S. at that age. She always told my parents that I didn't need to Learn Braille, since I was low vision, but when I lost my sight, that is when she realize that I needed Braill. I think if they have taught me Braill, since I was 12, I could have already know Braille when I was 16, and my speed of reading Braille could have been faster than now. I really don't know my Braille reading sppeed is, but I think is fast, but not fast enough if they have taught me Braille before, but they never think of the future. Just to let you know, I'm actually 21 years old, almost 22, and I think that I still need to improve my Braille skills. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying ok? I really like Braille a lot, and I'm glad that my TVI taught me how to read Braille. However, I think they should teach children who are low vision how to read Braille even though they are low vision. Just to let you know, I use extra time when it comes to having to take a test online or having to take a test in Braille that involves short answers and multiple choice. For instance, when it is 40 questions long, which involves 20 multiple choice questions, and 20 short answers that involves reding quotes from stories that I need to answer. I really don't take advantage of the extra time, I just use it when it is given the opportunity. In fact, I turn in my work at the same time of my classmates. I'm just saying that if the professors give youextra time in order for you to complete assignments or tests, use it wisely, and don't take advantage of it, just because the professor is nice in giving it to you, just try hard in completing your work and let the professor know that you are working hard! Hope you understand me! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless! :) P.S. It is nice to open my heart to you all here!, you are very nice friends to talk to! Thanks again! ;) -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 7:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times Hi Lillie, I'm not sure I understand your post quite right. Are you saying that you think extended time is justified in your case because you use Braille? Or are you saying that because you use Braille, you don't usually need the extended time unless you have to do something like hand-draw a graph? If it's the former, then I would wonder why extended time should be given for Braille readers? I'm not just asking that of you in particular, but asking more generally why educators seem to agree that Braille users should get even more extended time than large-print users. In general, I think the only time extended time is justified is when the test-taking method is somehow different from the method the student normally uses to complete assignments. For example, if the teacher gives the test in an inaccessible format and the student has to spend time converting it before starting the test. If the student's normal method of completing work takes longer than it does for sighted students, then it seems the priority should be to try to figure out how that method can be made more efficient, not band-aiding the problem with extended time. As Steve pointed out, there are important situations where extended time is not an option since others are depending on us to get work done. In those cases, it seems non-optimal to be relying on a slow method to complete the work. I remember taking standardized tests in Braille during elementary school and my TVI being really impressed because I was able to whiz through the vocab portions without needing any extra time. This should not have been impressive. I learned Braille when I was in preschool and I knew the vocab. That should be the standard all blind students are held to. Arielle On 3/8/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > I have a slightly different outlook on this at the moment because a > considerable percentage of my materials are in Braille. I have 100% > extended > time on my IEP and more time can be allotted if the individual teacher > feels > I should have it if I still need to finish. I also have 100% extended time > on my college board accomidations as well. I generally go maybe up to time > and a half on about 99% of my tests if that. This is mainly for producing > diagrams such as drawings from a math graphing calculator or things like > punnet squares when I was taking biology. When I was making punnet > squares, > I was gluing bits of paper with letters in the boxes in the square because > I > didn't realize that I could use excel until after the test for that unit. > I also don't really double check multiple choice questions. However, I > will > proofread short answers and essay questions for spelling and grammar and > the > like. The one area where I am the most guilty of taking advantage of my > extended time is in writing history DBQs, or document based questions that > are similar to a portion of the essay questions on the advanced placement > test. I write slowly, and generally sit there for a few minutes planning > what I will say in my essay. There are generally no diagrams prohibiting > me > from finishing as fast as the other students. > I have the extension on assignments accomidation on my IEP as well, > although > I really don't use it. The only case where I do use it is when I have to > construct a diagram that requires many pieces of paper or other material, > such as a punnet square. That's really the only time I recall using that > accomidation. > I generally don't like using extended time though because I feel like I > lose > my rhythm when answering questions and I can never get back into it. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve > Jacobson > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times > > I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to > discuss > the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in school, there > were no official extended test times but because of the way I took tests I > had extra time and I think it was understood that was the case. In other > words, I received extra time with all concerned knowing that was the case. > I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. > I > found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I was > able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please > understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part of > what > I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for multiple choice > tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally occurred to me as a > student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am on the job. If I needed > extra time, it would have to come out of my leisure time, and sometimes > that > might not even be possible. I decided at some point that I needed to work > on efficiency when I was a student because it would be harder to do that > on > the job. I changed my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on > testing that other students had, although I excluded the time it took to > convert the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. > > So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable and > even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where you have > extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra time as an > employee? > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >>Green >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > >>there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >>feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >>Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >>waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >>me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >>don't demand special treatment. >>I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >>just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >>that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be wrong > about this. >>I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >>that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands all >>of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For example, >>I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. She >>teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. The >>first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I was >>there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this week we >>were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person who came >>into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >>accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >>was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be teaching >>in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with a blind >>person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind people are >>like that person. Usually blind students contact professors before the > first day of class. >>Have a blessed day. >>Best, >>Melissa R Green and PJ >>Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Arielle Silverman" >>To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >>mailing list" >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > >>Hi Joe, > >>I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never be >>offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it is >>fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >>any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >>responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >>we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. > >>Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >>to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver orders >>the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am even >>halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >>anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >>out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >>asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >>and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >>them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >>Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >>and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >>But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >>tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >>denies me the opportunity to decline. > >>And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra time >>on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't address the >>real problems that would be causing kids to need extra time in the >>first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra time is an >>accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to try to level >>the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >>Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >>was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >>It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >>accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >>people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to address >>them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in advocating >>policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the front lines >>(and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind people >>including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >>philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real needs >>and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that special >>treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. Of >>course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be > accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special > accommodations. >>It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >>accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >>I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >>treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >>accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >>some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other people's >>time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or perception of oneself > as a competent person. >>Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >>the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >>right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. > >>Best, >>Arielle > >>On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> >>> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >>> >>> First, you write: >>> >>> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >>> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >>> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >>> that may be true, but usually it's not." >>> >>> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >>> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, than >>> you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had just >>> extended the courtesy. >>> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >>> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >>> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >>> leave both parties satisfied. >>> >>> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >>> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >>> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >>> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >>> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >>> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it is >>> I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >>> >>> Next, you write: >>> >>> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >>> that social goal." >>> >>> My response: >>> >>> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness is >>> still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to give >>> the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on face, >>> then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's your >>> right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but giving >>> you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not receive. We >>> should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because other vendors >>> can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're talking about >>> buses, we should eliminate special transit services since people with >>> disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able to use public >>> buses just like anyone else. As you yourself acknowledge "it comes >>> with some kind of assumption about why one group of people is more >>> deserving of that courtesy than another." >>> >>> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >>> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >>> between true independence and independence according to one's >>> convenient definition. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >>> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >>> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >>> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >>> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >>> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >>> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind of >>> assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of that >>> courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I can >>> sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because they >>> have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat more than > they. >>> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >>> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >>> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >>> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >>> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >>> simple "how can I help you?" >>> query >>> would have resolved that problem. >>> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >>> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >>> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >>> their gesture without asking. >>> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes with >>> that social goal. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>>> Hi Arielle, >>>> >>>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard to >>>> basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but you >>>> get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than the >>>> norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>>> disabilities, and yes, >>women. >>>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, or >>>> the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was her >>>> pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone was >>>> nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we should >>fear. >>>> It's >>> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>>> Silverman >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something in >>>> there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>>> being a guide dog traveler? >>>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's usually >>>> because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for a back >>>> seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them verbally >>>> point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>>> >>>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my gender >>>> for that matter, to be courtesies. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went through >>>>> similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to talk to so >>>>> many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -Anjelina >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>>> repeating every few >>> years. >>>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and want >>>>>> to control what we were doing. When adults came into my house and >>>>>> tried to interact with me in ways I thought were childish or >>>>>> silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was one for a lot >>>>>> of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that because >>>>>> of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were goals on my >>>>>> IEP throughout elementary and middle school that dealt with my >>>>>> social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals like >>>>>> "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>>> she likes >>>> something". >>>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she wrote >>>>>> it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave was >>>>>> expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>>> skills. >>>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>>> for having lasting >>relationships: >>>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>>> holding >>>> grudges. >>>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in the >>>>>> world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I think >>>>>> the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming friends with >>>>>> blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell me if I was >>>>>> doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can learn about >>>>>> social interaction just by listening, talking and sharing with >>>>>> others. >>>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage in >>>>>> artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things that >>>>>> congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so we >>>>>> can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we still >>>>>> have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it seems >>>>>> that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills when the >>>>>> fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but chosen not >>>>>> to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, > charismatic person. >>>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >>> belong. >>>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>>> lot of >>>> trial and error. >>>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them opportunities >>>>>> to make friends and have real social encounters--instead of >>>>>> indoctrinating them with lessons based on a narrow definition of >>>>>> social competence. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40 >>>>>> g >>>>>> m >>>>>> a >>>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.c >>om > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >>gmail >>.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >>si.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. > net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 9 03:13:53 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 22:13:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Message-ID: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> Hi all, My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He could also teach assistive technology somewhere. I’ve considered being a camp counselor too. Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would like to hear about that. Ashley From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 03:39:07 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 22:39:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, Are you and your friend only looking into counselor positions at blind camps because there are thousands and thousands of summer camp programs out there that you could work at. I've worked at both a day camp for kids ages 7-13 and an overnight camp for only visually impaired children in the same age range. Both of my experiences were extremely positive; I had a lot of fun working with the kids, doing arts and crafts projects, writing skits and songs, participating in the usual summery physical activities. If you like working with kids, then it's definitely an excellent job to look into. It can get pretty exhausting though, especially the overnight camps as you are responsible for rambunctious children 24/7. Many non profits also host their own summer programs targeting specific groups of underprivileged youth, so you could start by doing a search for non profits in your area dedicated to doing this kind of work. I personally use and love idealist.org. If you're into sports, there's a pretty popular camp I believe called Camp Abilities that teach kids adaptive sports. I honestly don't know any music camps geared towards blind children, but your friend could just do a general google search on summer music camps; he could always teach music theory and jazz to sighted students. Hope this helps. Minh On 3/8/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory is > looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or help > blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He could > also teach assistive technology somewhere. > > I've considered being a camp counselor too. > > Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be nice > if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. > I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook > school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. > > > > If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would > like to hear about that. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 04:20:37 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 23:20:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> Ashley, The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just for blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him or you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our bell programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Hi all, > > My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He could also teach assistive technology somewhere. > > I’ve considered being a camp counselor too. > > Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. > I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. > > > > If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would like to hear about that. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From ligne14 at verizon.net Sun Mar 9 15:12:59 2014 From: ligne14 at verizon.net (sami osborne) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 11:12:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Message-ID: <0N2600GISCY4MZA0@vms173023.mailsrvcs.net> Hi Ashley and all. I usually don't answer to topics like this, because I usually don't attend summer camps, you know, since every summer we go to France. However, this year I am going to atjend a pre-college camp here in New York. I also have a few things to add on this topic. Ashley, I'm sorry if I went off-topic, but is your friend named Andrew Zhang, who lives in New York and who attends the same music school for the blind on Saturdays as I do, and who also p'lays the piano? I'm just curious. I don't know of any music camps except for the one my brother goes to now during the summers. It is here in Nyack, and it's not for the blind. My brother plays the violin. And no, Overbrook School for the Blind isn't in New York, it's in Pennsylvania. I just wanted to let you know of that. Minh, yes, I know camp abilities. I go to the one in Pennsylvania during memorial day weekends to do sports, and I like it a lot and it's alot of fun. I would therefore encourage anyone interested in sports to give it a try. Note: I believe the maximum age you can be is 19, I might be wrong, though. With the hope that Andrew will find the best music camp for him, Sami. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: <004201cf3b2d$ee60eb90$cb22c2b0$@net> Message-ID: <007d01cf3bcb$e300bcf0$a90236d0$@net> Hi Arielle, I apologize for the lack of clarity here. I was saying that because I used Braille, the test is essentially in my own hands. I do not have to rely on anyone else to read the test to me. Therefore, it is my responsibility to finish the test in a timely, yet appropriate amount of time so that I am not rushing. I think that slower Braille readers and their parents/TVIs should work early on to ensure a faster Braille reading speed instead of championing very hard for extended time. Problems such as this, in my opinion should be worked out before the student goes to college, or better yet high school where there is a plethora of standardized tests to take. I am not arguing for the removal of extended time, but I think that it should not be used freely and that users should be mindful of its use. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 7:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times Hi Lillie, I'm not sure I understand your post quite right. Are you saying that you think extended time is justified in your case because you use Braille? Or are you saying that because you use Braille, you don't usually need the extended time unless you have to do something like hand-draw a graph? If it's the former, then I would wonder why extended time should be given for Braille readers? I'm not just asking that of you in particular, but asking more generally why educators seem to agree that Braille users should get even more extended time than large-print users. In general, I think the only time extended time is justified is when the test-taking method is somehow different from the method the student normally uses to complete assignments. For example, if the teacher gives the test in an inaccessible format and the student has to spend time converting it before starting the test. If the student's normal method of completing work takes longer than it does for sighted students, then it seems the priority should be to try to figure out how that method can be made more efficient, not band-aiding the problem with extended time. As Steve pointed out, there are important situations where extended time is not an option since others are depending on us to get work done. In those cases, it seems non-optimal to be relying on a slow method to complete the work. I remember taking standardized tests in Braille during elementary school and my TVI being really impressed because I was able to whiz through the vocab portions without needing any extra time. This should not have been impressive. I learned Braille when I was in preschool and I knew the vocab. That should be the standard all blind students are held to. Arielle On 3/8/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > I have a slightly different outlook on this at the moment because a > considerable percentage of my materials are in Braille. I have 100% > extended time on my IEP and more time can be allotted if the > individual teacher feels I should have it if I still need to finish. I > also have 100% extended time on my college board accomidations as > well. I generally go maybe up to time and a half on about 99% of my > tests if that. This is mainly for producing diagrams such as drawings > from a math graphing calculator or things like punnet squares when I > was taking biology. When I was making punnet squares, I was gluing > bits of paper with letters in the boxes in the square because I didn't > realize that I could use excel until after the test for that unit. > I also don't really double check multiple choice questions. However, I > will proofread short answers and essay questions for spelling and > grammar and the like. The one area where I am the most guilty of > taking advantage of my extended time is in writing history DBQs, or > document based questions that are similar to a portion of the essay > questions on the advanced placement test. I write slowly, and > generally sit there for a few minutes planning what I will say in my > essay. There are generally no diagrams prohibiting me from finishing > as fast as the other students. > I have the extension on assignments accomidation on my IEP as well, > although I really don't use it. The only case where I do use it is > when I have to construct a diagram that requires many pieces of paper > or other material, such as a punnet square. That's really the only > time I recall using that accomidation. > I generally don't like using extended time though because I feel like > I lose my rhythm when answering questions and I can never get back > into it. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve > Jacobson > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 12:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Test Times > > I changed the subject but am wondering if people would be willing to > discuss the role of extended test times a bit more. When I was in > school, there were no official extended test times but because of the > way I took tests I had extra time and I think it was understood that > was the case. In other words, I received extra time with all > concerned knowing that was the case. > I was a math major, and some of our tests had open book elements in them. > I > found that I probably didn't study as hard as I should have because I > was able to do some on the fly studying when I took the tests. Please > understand, that isn't always the case, I know that, it is just part > of what I experienced. I don't remember needing extra time for > multiple choice tests as long as I had a good reader. It finally > occurred to me as a student that I wouldn't have extra time when I am > on the job. If I needed extra time, it would have to come out of my > leisure time, and sometimes that might not even be possible. I > decided at some point that I needed to work on efficiency when I was a > student because it would be harder to do that on the job. I changed > my study habbits and imposed the same time limits on testing that > other students had, although I excluded the time it took to convert > the test into an accessible format and convert my answers back. > > So my question is this. With extended test times now being acceptable > and even mandated, how does one transition from an environment where > you have extra time as a student to one where you don't have extra > time as an employee? > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa >>Green >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:29 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > >>there is another side to this issue. what about miss blind smith who >>feels that she deserves the special treatment because she is blind. >>Thus she demands that people get out of the front seat, or that she be >>waved from a class. I have met people like this. It is annoying to >>me. then sightling compares her to me. When I say no thank you or >>don't demand special treatment. >>I would have to disagree about extended time on tests because it isn't >>just for blind people. If someone wants to not take it then I think >>that they have the right to turn down the acomodation. I could be >>wrong > about this. >>I personally use all of the accomodations that I am offered. for me, >>that is part of my independence. but, the blind person who demands >>all of the accomodations and want things to change for them. For >>example, I was talking to a college professor the other day at my job. >>She teaches classes at a college as well as to pre school children. >>The first day I met her, she was very rude too me. She asked me why I >>was there and when I said I was a teacher she stalked off. So this >>week we were having a comversation and she told me of a blind person >>who came into her frinch class the first day and demanded all of these >>accomodations and she wasn't prepared. This told me that is why she >>was so rude to me and surprised that me a blind woman would be >>teaching in a pre school. This is because of her last experience with >>a blind person. I took the time to say to her that not all blind >>people are like that person. Usually blind students contact >>professors before the > first day of class. >>Have a blessed day. >>Best, >>Melissa R Green and PJ >>Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Arielle Silverman" >>To: ; "National Association of Blind Students >>mailing list" >>Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 1:05 PM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy > > >>Hi Joe, > >>I think I need to clarify my position. I don't think we should never >>be offered or accept special treatment. I do think, as do you, that it >>is fine for sighted folks to ask us what kind of special treatment, if >>any, we require and to respect our answers. I also think we have a >>responsibility to be mindful of what special treatment we accept, why >>we accept it, and the potential costs of accepting it. > >>Unfortunately, my experience has been that many people aren't willing >>to stop at asking if we want a courtesy. Instead, the bus driver >>orders the front passenger to vacate their seat for me before I am >>even halfway on the bus and can join the conversation. The kind couple >>anonymously pays for my meal at a restaurant and leaves before I find >>out and can be part of the conversation. Or the stranger, instead of >>asking if I need help across the street, physically pulls on my body >>and storms off in a huff when I ask them to stop; no time to educate >>them on what would have been a better way to offer help. >>Yes, there are exceptions to this, and some people are perfectly kind >>and respectful. It's important not to always be expecting the worst. >>But I hope you can understand that being offered special treatment >>tends to get my feathers up in anticipation of an escalation that >>denies me the opportunity to decline. > >>And, for the record, I don't think blind students should get extra >>time on tests. I think this accommodation is unfair and doesn't >>address the real problems that would be causing kids to need extra >>time in the first place, like inadequate Braille instruction. Extra >>time is an accommodation invented by sighted teachers in an effort to >>try to level the playing field. I don't think it's the best accommodation for us. >>Similarly, Randolph-Sheppard was passed in the 1930's before the NFB >>was around, by sighted legislators trying to help us find employment. >>It helps in some ways, but it, too, has a lot of problems. I think the >>accommodations we are offered need to be based on the needs real blind >>people identify and solutions that real blind people imagine to >>address them. Of course, we will collaborate with sighted people in >>advocating policies that affect us, but we really need to be on the >>front lines (and by "we" I don't just mean the NFB; I mean all blind >>people including unaffiliated blind and those who disagree with NFB >>philosophy). If we accept special treatment that is based on real >>needs and that is actually effective in meeting those needs, that >>special treatment is no longer tied to outsider assumptions about us. >>Of course, we should also consider that if the world were set up to be > accessible to us from the get-go, we wouldn't require any special > accommodations. >>It is not a black-and-white issue and the need for special >>accommodation will differ between two blind people at any given time. >>I agree that independence is not about rejecting all selective >>treatment on principle. I think it is about being mindful of what >>accommodations we seek out and why. Every accommodation has a cost of >>some sort. Sometimes, it's other people's tax dollars or other >>people's time. Other times it's a cost to personal freedom or >>perception of oneself > as a competent person. >>Accommodations also have benefits and sometimes the benefits outweigh >>the costs. Other times they don't, and when they don't, we have the >>right to reject them without being considered excessively independent. > >>Best, >>Arielle > >>On 3/7/14, Joe wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> >>> I think on this one we're going to have to agree to disagree. >>> >>> First, you write: >>> >>> "Why does someone get up on the bus so I can sit, when they wouldn't >>> do that for a sighted passenger? Because they have some assumption >>> that I as a blind person need the seat more than they. Occasionally >>> that may be true, but usually it's not." >>> >>> To which I say that the person has no idea when that occasional >>> exception presents itself. Better that they ask, and you refuse, >>> than you pass on an opportunity you could have had if the person had >>> just extended the courtesy. >>> I've never advocated that blind people should be forced to receive >>> the courtesy. I agree with you that sometimes the help is >>> misdirected, but thank goodness for two-way communication that can >>> leave both parties satisfied. >>> >>> Second, we have to seize educational opportunities when they present >>> themselves. No, I don't need that seat at the front of the bus. I >>> really don't mind standing, or no, I can cross this street on my own. >>> Want to see how? Yeah, that sounds a little like an after-school >>> special, but some of the best educational opportunities have come >>> from people asking to do something and then me telling them why it >>> is I don't need it. The general public will never know if we don't educate. >>> >>> Next, you write: >>> >>> "I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes >>> with that social goal." >>> >>> My response: >>> >>> I've always had a problem with that organizational mentality. Yes, >>> blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance, but blindness >>> is still a characteristic that necessitates certain courtesies to >>> give the blind person an equal shot. If we took your statement on >>> face, then we should eliminate extra time on exams. After all, it's >>> your right to have an exam in the format you need to take it, but >>> giving you extra time is a courtesy other test takers did not >>> receive. We should eliminate the Randolph Sheppard program, because >>> other vendors can't get those vending facilities. As long as we're >>> talking about buses, we should eliminate special transit services >>> since people with disabilities, blind or otherwise, ought to be able >>> to use public buses just like anyone else. As you yourself >>> acknowledge "it comes with some kind of assumption about why one >>> group of people is more deserving of that courtesy than another." >>> >>> I am not advocating we eliminate those courtesies. Yet, I raise the >>> examples to show we can't have it both ways. There is a fine line >>> between true independence and independence according to one's >>> convenient definition. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:arielle71 at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:05 PM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>> >>> I'm all for people being nicer to each other and caring more about >>> each other. I would say it is a problem if people selectively offer >>> us courtesies they don't offer sighted people just because we are >>> blind, just as I think it is a problem if men offer me courtesies as >>> a woman that they wouldn't offer other men. To me selective courtesy >>> is a form of discrimination. It allows some people but not others to >>> experience kindness, but more importantly, it comes with some kind >>> of assumption about why one group of people is more deserving of >>> that courtesy than another. Why does someone get up on the bus so I >>> can sit, when they wouldn't do that for a sighted passenger? Because >>> they have some assumption that I as a blind person need the seat >>> more than > they. >>> Occasionally that may be true, but usually it's not. >>> And then there's times when people offer me unnecessary courtesies >>> but then neglect to provide help I really need. Case in point, the >>> bus driver lowers the bus entrance thinking I would have trouble >>> climbing the step, but he neglects to say which bus he's driving. A >>> simple "how can I help you?" >>> query >>> would have resolved that problem. >>> That's why I have no problem if people ask me whether or not I want >>> some form of assistance, because asking still leaves the power in my >>> hands. It is a problem to me if someone assumes I would appreciate >>> their gesture without asking. >>> I don't think it's about excessive independence or pride here. I >>> think it's about people wanting to be perceived as equals, whether >>> that be women or blind people, and selective courtesy interferes >>> with that social goal. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/6/14, Joe wrote: >>>> Hi Arielle, >>>> >>>> My reference to courtesies really goes beyond blindness. I work in >>>> Washington DC where too many people rush about with little regard >>>> to basic niceties. Maybe it's the Texas boy in me coming out, but >>>> you get to a point where kind gestures are more the exception than >>>> the norm. I spent too many years building up my confidence for my >>>> independence to be challenged by someone asking if I would like a >>>> seat or help across the street or any number of gestures people >>>> think I could benefit from, and I too find myself behaving extra >>>> nice to people in wheelchairs, people with intellectual >>>> disabilities, and yes, >>women. >>>> No, I don't think women are at any kind of disadvantage, but the >>>> only thing that ever hurt a woman when a guy opened her car door, >>>> or the front door or pulled out a chair for her at a restaurant was >>>> her pride. The notion that I should feel inferior because someone >>>> was nice toward me makes no sense to me. It's not the gestures we >>>> should >>fear. >>>> It's >>> when the gestures stop that we should truly worry. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:56 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Independence and courtesy >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> I liked your blog post for the most part, but there was something >>>> in there that puzzled me, as it sounded like a bit of a contradiction. >>>> You say that you'd like it if people offered you front seats on the >>>> bus because you are blind, yet admit that you would turn the offer >>>> down. You also make a statement to the effect that if you were >>>> sighted you would offer such special treatment to a blind person. >>>> I question, What is the logic behind advocating special courtesies >>>> for blind people that aren't extended to the sighted? Why should a >>>> blind person be offered preferential seating or a discount as a >>>> courtesy that is not offered to everyone else? Am I missing >>>> something? Is receiving a seat near the door something that >>>> addresses blindness-related needs? Perhaps it is something about >>>> being a guide dog traveler? >>>> While I sometimes take the seat near the door on a bus, it's >>>> usually because I don't want to hold up the bus while I search for >>>> a back seat. If someone wants to be courteous, I'd rather them >>>> verbally point out empty seats to me rather than giving up their seats for me. >>>> Nor do I expect a man to give me a seat because I am female. In >>>> fact, I'd find such treatment insulting. >>>> >>>> I appreciate when people offer me courtesies that they would offer >>>> anyone, such as holding the door open. I also like it when people >>>> offer courtesies that address my access needs, like describing >>>> visual things to me. I don't like it when people presume needs I >>>> don't have, such as presuming I can't stand on a crowded bus. If >>>> people have questions about how far my blindness affects my >>>> abilities, I'd rather they ask than assume. I don't consider such >>>> assumptions about my preferences based on my blindness, or my >>>> gender for that matter, to be courtesies. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/5/14, Anjelina wrote: >>>>> Arielle, >>>>> I hope you are archiving your wisdom for a book in the near future! >>>>> I can't add much to your well-written message except I went >>>>> through similar experiences. In my IEP had goals like I had to >>>>> talk to so many people a day since I was a more interverted person. >>>>> Social skills are wonderful and helpful, but real authentic >>>>> friendships which are meaningful friendships are most important. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -Anjelina >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:22 AM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> OK. Since it was brought up here, I feel compelled to share some >>>>>> of my experiences and controversial views on how blind people >>>>>> should learn social skills. Some of you have heard this rant >>>>>> before in part, but I think it is important enough to bear >>>>>> repeating every few >>> years. >>>>>> I guess I'm also curious if any of you have had similar >>>>>> experiences growing up or if the things I am about to advocate >>>>>> make any sense to others besides me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been blind my whole life and I was always an introverted >>>>>> person. As a child I had few close friends, read a lot by myself. >>>>>> When I did hang out with kids my age I tended to be bossy and >>>>>> want to control what we were doing. When adults came into my >>>>>> house and tried to interact with me in ways I thought were >>>>>> childish or silly, I would go to my room and read. I never was >>>>>> one for a lot of physical affection, hugging, touching etc. >>>>>> When I was growing up it was assumed that all my undesirable >>>>>> traits linked back to my blindness. So it was assumed that >>>>>> because of my blindness I had poor social skills. There were >>>>>> goals on my IEP throughout elementary and middle school that >>>>>> dealt with my social skills and my TVI was tasked with evaluating my progress. >>>>>> For example, in elementary school I would get graded on goals >>>>>> like "Shows interest in other children" or "asks others about their day". >>>>>> In middle school, one goal on my IEP was "compliments others when >>>>>> she likes >>>> something". >>>>>> I am not even slightly joking. My TVI would ask me every day to >>>>>> tell her how many people I had complimented that day and she >>>>>> wrote it down on her clipboard. The number of compliments I gave >>>>>> was expected to increase over time. Since I was usually a good >>>>>> student and I liked and respected this teacher a lot, I tried my >>>>>> hardest to give her a good compliment report every day, by >>>>>> contriving situations where I could compliment my family and >>>>>> classmates. I still don't understand what this had to do with my >>>>>> blindness. If I complimented people less than my parents or >>>>>> teachers expected it was because that just wasn't a big part of >>>>>> how I liked to interact with people. Had I been sighted, I >>>>>> wouldn't have been graded on such a silly thing. She also read me >>>>>> passages from a social skills book as a way to teach me social >>>> skills. >>>>>> Eventually my TVI and I discussed this and she told me that my >>>>>> parents had really expected her to do these things and she did >>>>>> even though she knew they were ridiculous. >>>>>> When people in the blindness world talk about social skills, it >>>>>> seems they're usually referring to two things: skills at winning >>>>>> friends and influencing people (charisma, likability, popularity) >>>>>> or following social conventions like being places on time, >>>>>> attempting eye contact, etc. (what Jedi refers to as "blending >>>>>> in"). By the first set of criteria, winning friends and >>>>>> influencing people, Adolf Hitler had wonderful social skills. I >>>>>> think there are other social skills that are much more important >>>>>> for having lasting >>relationships: >>>>>> things like sharing, helping others in need, being sensitive to >>>>>> other people's feelings, respecting other people's opinions, not >>>>>> holding >>>> grudges. >>>>>> There are many sighted politicians who have absolutely terrible >>>>>> social skills by these criteria! These are all things that blind >>>>>> people can learn just as well as sighted people by listening to >>>>>> other people's conversations, talking about issues going on in >>>>>> the world, and actually being a part of close relationships. I >>>>>> think the most social skills I ever learned was by becoming >>>>>> friends with blind people who were willing to be blunt and tell >>>>>> me if I was doing something obnoxious. There is a lot we can >>>>>> learn about social interaction just by listening, talking and >>>>>> sharing with others. >>>>>> Reading about this stuff in a book, or being required to engage >>>>>> in artificial interactions with others, doesn't help build these >>>>>> social skills in the long term. Role-playing social interactions >>>>>> doesn't help when you're out in the real world and the thing you >>>>>> practiced feels really awkward and fake. >>>>>> On blending in, I do think there are certain nonverbal things >>>>>> that congenitally blind people should be explicitly told about so >>>>>> we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to blend in. >>>>>> For example, of course blind folks should be told about which >>>>>> colors people usually wear together or what kind of clothing is >>>>>> appropriate for a job interview vs. the movies. But then, we >>>>>> still have the right to choose to blend in or not. So often it >>>>>> seems that blind folks are labeled as having poor social skills >>>>>> when the fact is that they've learned what is "appropriate" but >>>>>> chosen not to follow these norms for whatever reason. >>>>>> I realize now that my parents and teachers were unfortunately >>>>>> using blindness and the IEP system to try to change who I >>>>>> fundamentally was--to turn me into an extroverted, gregarious, > charismatic person. >>>>>> It took a long time for me to realize that I was OK being myself, >>>>>> and that I was just reared in an environment where I didn't quite >>> belong. >>>>>> Although I don't have tons of friends, I have great relationships >>>>>> with the friends I do have, a loving husband and co-workers who >>>>>> respect me, and I try to be the best person I can. Most of the >>>>>> things I learned to get me to this place came from my firsthand >>>>>> experiences making friends, my real discussions with others and a >>>>>> lot of >>>> trial and error. >>>>>> I don't think I missed out on the process because I am blind, but >>>>>> I also don't think the attempts to teach me social skills from a >>>>>> textbook were either effective or necessary. >>>>>> In closing, I hope that any good blindness center would support >>>>>> students in developing social skills--by giving them >>>>>> opportunities to make friends and have real social >>>>>> encounters--instead of indoctrinating them with lessons based on >>>>>> a narrow definition of social competence. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%4 >>>>>> 0 >>>>>> g >>>>>> m >>>>>> a >>>>>> il.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail. >>c >>om > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>0 >>gmail >>.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v >>i >>si.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. > net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sun Mar 9 19:21:01 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:21:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] several Apple questions Message-ID: <007e01cf3bcc$b5798180$206c8480$@net> Hi everyone, I could probably find all of these answers in a google search, but the first results I was finding had a lot of clicking and pictures in their answers, and not keyboard commands, so I thought I'd ask here to see if anyone knew what I could do. First, since I upgraded to IOS seven, my iPhone has this movable cursor with writing emails. I can no longer read a draft of an email without my place in the email being messed up. Is there any way I can turn this off. Second, I found my iPod Nano the other day and want to update it with new music. I haven't updated it since 2009, and really don't remember how to do it. Third, I know you can copy files out of your itunes library and place them on a thumb drive or in another location. However, I use iTunes sharing and am linked to my dads library that way. Is there any way to copy these files out of that library or otherwise have access to them so I can put them on my iPod? I'd prefer to not have to have him send them to me via drop box or on a flash drive, but I guess I could do that. Thank you for any help. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 9 19:25:52 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:25:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <9397FFB5320A4D2D9CCAB2B3CD03A7A3@OwnerPC> Minh, thanks. Which overnight camp for blind kids was this at? You're right there's thousands of camps in general. I got the sense that he might feel more comfortable at a blindness camp though. We both know the concerns a sighted director will have about employing a blind counselor. I'll ask him if he may feel up to trying to teach music to sighted kids. Chris makes an excellent point that there are a lot of options for general music camps in the MD and DC area. In your experience with the sighted kids, how did you handle them? How did you know who was in the room? Having a handful of kids moving about may be challenging; to me many little voices sound the same. How did you know what they were doing especially for arts and crafts projects? Something like singing would not pose much challenge, nor would stories around the camp fire; its auditory. Were you working at a general day camp? How long were the hours? May I ask how old you were when working at the camps? I'm glad to know it worked out for you. Some employers are open minded and give us a chance. Many college students work at summer camps; so I agree it’s a good job. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: minh ha Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 10:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Ashley, Are you and your friend only looking into counselor positions at blind camps because there are thousands and thousands of summer camp programs out there that you could work at. I've worked at both a day camp for kids ages 7-13 and an overnight camp for only visually impaired children in the same age range. Both of my experiences were extremely positive; I had a lot of fun working with the kids, doing arts and crafts projects, writing skits and songs, participating in the usual summery physical activities. If you like working with kids, then it's definitely an excellent job to look into. It can get pretty exhausting though, especially the overnight camps as you are responsible for rambunctious children 24/7. Many non profits also host their own summer programs targeting specific groups of underprivileged youth, so you could start by doing a search for non profits in your area dedicated to doing this kind of work. I personally use and love idealist.org. If you're into sports, there's a pretty popular camp I believe called Camp Abilities that teach kids adaptive sports. I honestly don't know any music camps geared towards blind children, but your friend could just do a general google search on summer music camps; he could always teach music theory and jazz to sighted students. Hope this helps. Minh On 3/8/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory > is > looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or help > blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He could > also teach assistive technology somewhere. > > I've considered being a camp counselor too. > > Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be > nice > if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. > I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook > school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. > > > > If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would > like to hear about that. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 9 19:29:49 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:29:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19EF0475C5774B0296CE8E3E69A6B6FD@OwnerPC> Chris, Thanks, can I write off list? What music are you involved in? just singing? I'll ask him if he has an age preference. I do not know if he would try sighted students at music camp. I'll ask as I do agree this would open up more opportunities. Keep in mind that we are in northern VA so the camp would have to be either in commuting distance or they would need to provide housing. I know when I went to camps that the counselors were provided housing as it was overnight, and counselors who were college students came from all over. Are most music camps overnight or day camps? Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Ashley, The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just for blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him or you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our bell programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory > is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or > help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He > could also teach assistive technology somewhere. > > I’ve considered being a camp counselor too. > > Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be > nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. > I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook > school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. > > > > If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would > like to hear about that. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From matt.dierckens at me.com Sun Mar 9 19:29:50 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 15:29:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] several Apple questions In-Reply-To: <007e01cf3bcc$b5798180$206c8480$@net> References: <007e01cf3bcc$b5798180$206c8480$@net> Message-ID: Hi Lillie. Can you elaborate more on your email problem? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 9, 2014, at 15:21, Lillie Pennington wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > I could probably find all of these answers in a google search, but the first > results I was finding had a lot of clicking and pictures in their answers, > and not keyboard commands, so I thought I'd ask here to see if anyone knew > what I could do. > > First, since I upgraded to IOS seven, my iPhone has this movable cursor with > writing emails. I can no longer read a draft of an email without my place in > the email being messed up. Is there any way I can turn this off. > > > > Second, I found my iPod Nano the other day and want to update it with new > music. I haven't updated it since 2009, and really don't remember how to do > it. > > > > Third, I know you can copy files out of your itunes library and place them > on a thumb drive or in another location. However, I use iTunes sharing and > am linked to my dads library that way. Is there any way to copy these files > out of that library or otherwise have access to them so I can put them on my > iPod? I'd prefer to not have to have him send them to me via drop box or on > a flash drive, but I guess I could do that. > > > > Thank you for any help. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 9 19:33:18 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:33:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <0N2600GISCY4MZA0@vms173023.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0N2600GISCY4MZA0@vms173023.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Sami, no Andrew is in VA with me. I know overbrook school is in PA, I might have not been clear. What I meant was the summer camp I thought existed was in NY. I knew about the michigan one, but did not know its name, now I do. Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: sami osborne Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 11:12 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Hi Ashley and all. I usually don't answer to topics like this, because I usually don't attend summer camps, you know, since every summer we go to France. However, this year I am going to atjend a pre-college camp here in New York. I also have a few things to add on this topic. Ashley, I'm sorry if I went off-topic, but is your friend named Andrew Zhang, who lives in New York and who attends the same music school for the blind on Saturdays as I do, and who also p'lays the piano? I'm just curious. I don't know of any music camps except for the one my brother goes to now during the summers. It is here in Nyack, and it's not for the blind. My brother plays the violin. And no, Overbrook School for the Blind isn't in New York, it's in Pennsylvania. I just wanted to let you know of that. Minh, yes, I know camp abilities. I go to the one in Pennsylvania during memorial day weekends to do sports, and I like it a lot and it's alot of fun. I would therefore encourage anyone interested in sports to give it a try. Note: I believe the maximum age you can be is 19, I might be wrong, though. With the hope that Andrew will find the best music camp for him, Sami. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC> Chris, can I forward your email to him? -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Ashley, The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just for blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him or you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our bell programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory > is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or > help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He > could also teach assistive technology somewhere. > > I’ve considered being a camp counselor too. > > Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be > nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. > I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook > school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. > > > > If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would > like to hear about that. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 21:12:58 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:12:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> <5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi all, I have not been a summer counselor, but I was a counselor for a weeklong retreat once with sighted high school students. This was when I was 18, and before I was active in the NFB. The staff told me that there were a couple of counselors-in-training who were assigned to work in conjunction with counselors, and because I was blind, they wanted to assign my cabin one of them so there would be a pair of eyes to see if kids were sneaking out. Not knowing what blind counselors could really do, I figured this was fair. The irony was that this counselor-in-training was a really bad influence on the kids, and one night I busted them sneaking out when I was woken up by the sound of a door creaking. It turns out the counselor-in-training had encouraged the kids to sneak out, and if she hadn't been assigned to keep an eye on the cabin, there wouldn't have been a problem! Anyway, I was the one who noticed what was going on. I think if you are just tuned in and listening carefully around you, and set things up so the kids will respect you from the beginning, they will be less likely to mess with you and if they do, you will know and be able to stop it. Arielle On 3/9/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Chris, > can I forward your email to him? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs > > Ashley, > > The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille > beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many good > things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open to > teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just for > blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him or > you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here in > Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I ask > because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our bell > programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory >> is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or >> help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He >> could also teach assistive technology somewhere. >> >> I've considered being a camp counselor too. >> >> Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be >> nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. >> I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook >> school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. >> >> >> >> If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would >> like to hear about that. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 21:31:37 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 17:31:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> <5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <0621D491-3B65-42CC-A26D-10382F152390@gmail.com> Sure. He is welcome to contact me at this email address if he has any direct questions. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Chris, > can I forward your email to him? > > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs > > Ashley, > > The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just for blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him or you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our bell programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He could also teach assistive technology somewhere. >> >> I’ve considered being a camp counselor too. >> >> Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. >> I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. >> >> >> >> If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would like to hear about that. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 05:43:08 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:43:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <0621D491-3B65-42CC-A26D-10382F152390@gmail.com> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> <5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC> <0621D491-3B65-42CC-A26D-10382F152390@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I have only done a small number of counselor-ish things, but I've had very positive experiences. A few summers ago I was a junior counselor at a day camp for children with special needs, mostly Down Syndrome. This was a great experience for me, and the kids had fun too. The hardest part in that experience was working with kids who were very severely disabled, as well as those who were very highly functioning. I had to split my time between making sure one of the students didn't try to leave the building because she had a habit of wondering off, and keeping the highest functioning student engaged. Of course, I also had to devote time and attention to those who fell into the gap between the 2, but it worked out okay. My other experience as a counselor of sorts has been in the NFB Ohio Bell Program. I was one of the teachers last summer and loved it! I'm looking forward to going back, and had a blast working with the kids. The affiliate has gotten great reports from parents too, and 2 of our students even came to speak about BELL at our state convention a few months ago. BELL might be something both of you consider; it's a great time, and it can actually teach counselors/teachers a lot, too. As far as music camps go, I know of a few. Braille Beats is one I have personally attended as a student for years, although students are welcome through college age and a lot of the work is handled by the adult directors. The Summer Braille Music Institute, the program you spoke of in Philadelphia, is another good one that I have attended. However, you are right that it has not been held last year, and will not be held this summer as well while the directors are looking into improving the program. I've heard of a jazz camp in Louisiana, and there also is a jazz-specific summer program I looked into attending last summer held at Berkely School of Music in Mas. I can try to find the information in my inbox again and send it to you to pass on to your friend, Ashley, if you think he'd be interested. From what you've written, that one sounds like it might be right up his ally. On 3/9/14, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Sure. He is welcome to contact me at this email address if he has any direct > questions. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> wrote: >> >> Chris, >> can I forward your email to him? >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs >> >> Ashley, >> >> The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille >> beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many >> good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open >> to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just for >> blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him or >> you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here >> in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I >> ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our bell >> programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory >>> is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or >>> help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He >>> could also teach assistive technology somewhere. >>> >>> I've considered being a camp counselor too. >>> >>> Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be >>> nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. >>> I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook >>> school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. >>> >>> >>> >>> If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would >>> like to hear about that. >>> >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Mar 10 06:20:17 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 02:20:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC><9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com><5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC><0621D491-3B65-42CC-A26D-10382F152390@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4139A2B50F8A4F1BB8A146A24D5B4D30@OwnerPC> Hi Kaiti, Thanks for this info. What type of things are taught at Braille Beats? Is it structured with classes and lectures, or how is it run? Do you live in dorms? How many kids attend per session? Do you know if counselors were paid? Bell is a good idea, especially for me. Its volunteer based though. Since I've contemplated becoming a teacher of vision impaired, this would give me experience with kids. I'll look into that. I've not heard if they planned the dates in VA yet. Do you know if they will hold the summer Braille music institute again? I was dismayed to learn there was no program this year. I know a few teens who could probably benefit from such camps, and maybe when they are older, they can be counselors. I did all my music by listening. I had no one to teach me braille music and have tried large print which proved hard to read it and play it and I lacked patience to learn music anyway. I played piano and sung in middle school choir. This to say, I have interest in music, and wish I had attended the camps you speak of, but I did not know about them, until senior year when I met a low vision girl who went to a music camp for blind students. I wish there was an adult version of Braille Beats. Yes, please send info about the jazz camps. Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 1:43 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Hi all, I have only done a small number of counselor-ish things, but I've had very positive experiences. A few summers ago I was a junior counselor at a day camp for children with special needs, mostly Down Syndrome. This was a great experience for me, and the kids had fun too. The hardest part in that experience was working with kids who were very severely disabled, as well as those who were very highly functioning. I had to split my time between making sure one of the students didn't try to leave the building because she had a habit of wondering off, and keeping the highest functioning student engaged. Of course, I also had to devote time and attention to those who fell into the gap between the 2, but it worked out okay. My other experience as a counselor of sorts has been in the NFB Ohio Bell Program. I was one of the teachers last summer and loved it! I'm looking forward to going back, and had a blast working with the kids. The affiliate has gotten great reports from parents too, and 2 of our students even came to speak about BELL at our state convention a few months ago. BELL might be something both of you consider; it's a great time, and it can actually teach counselors/teachers a lot, too. As far as music camps go, I know of a few. Braille Beats is one I have personally attended as a student for years, although students are welcome through college age and a lot of the work is handled by the adult directors. The Summer Braille Music Institute, the program you spoke of in Philadelphia, is another good one that I have attended. However, you are right that it has not been held last year, and will not be held this summer as well while the directors are looking into improving the program. I've heard of a jazz camp in Louisiana, and there also is a jazz-specific summer program I looked into attending last summer held at Berkely School of Music in Mas. I can try to find the information in my inbox again and send it to you to pass on to your friend, Ashley, if you think he'd be interested. From what you've written, that one sounds like it might be right up his ally. On 3/9/14, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > Sure. He is welcome to contact me at this email address if he has any > direct > questions. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> wrote: >> >> Chris, >> can I forward your email to him? >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs >> >> Ashley, >> >> The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille >> beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many >> good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open >> to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just >> for >> blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him >> or >> you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here >> in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I >> ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our >> bell >> programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a >>> conservatory >>> is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or >>> help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. >>> He >>> could also teach assistive technology somewhere. >>> >>> I've considered being a camp counselor too. >>> >>> Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be >>> nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. >>> I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook >>> school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. >>> >>> >>> >>> If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, >>> would >>> like to hear about that. >>> >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From sgermano at asu.edu Mon Mar 10 18:31:58 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:31:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Accessibility presentation in my computing ethics class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I sent this out last week and got a few replies. I am hoping for many more and would like some personal experiences. I will be presenting to future software developers so here is a chance to tell them issues that exist, frustrations with new releases no longer being accessible and what is needed for accessibility. I would like accessibility to be discussed throughout the computer science degree program so the more information I can provide the better. I am a legally blind computer science student at Arizona State University. I am currently taking a course in computing ethics. I chose to do my presentation on computing and the disabled. There are only a couple of pages in our text about it that talk about accessibility but also talk about companies deciding not to provide accommodation becasue technology now allows employees to work remote. I will be researching the subject but I know that the people on these lists have vast knowledge so I thought this was the perfect place to ask questions. I am a user of mac zoom and zoontext so I dont' know a lot about the specific accessibility issues when using JAWS So here are some of my questions. Also feel free to offer information on anything I may have left outs. What do software developers need to do to ensure the software they develop is accessible via a screen reader? Is is just things like in visual studio setting the Accessibility Properties of a control like a combo box? When I use ZoomText the insertion point is tracked in some software but not others. What needs to be done to allow tracking? Does the software need to expose something? What makes a web page accessible vs not accessible with speech? What have been people's experiences with things like blackboard, or other sites you are required to use in school to access your class, turn in assignments, take online quizzes/tests etc. Where can a developer go to learn about requirements for accessibility, what makes a program or webpage more accessible Does anyone have experience on the job in which a program you were using was accessible but they came out with a new version that was no longer accessible? Specific examples would be really helpful What laws exist concerning accessibility to computers, software etc? I would really love to show a demo of someone who is really experienced with JAWS especially someone who works in the computer science field. Would any one be willing to provide me with a short video of you working so the students can see how we work in the field? I would provide a link to my dropbox for the video. I can do any required editing. After I present to the class, I am planning on providing my presentation to the dean of computer science and explain why I believe accessibility should be taught from the beginning to computer science students. If they learn to at least think about it when learning to develop software I believe they will be more likely to do it in practice. I believe most people don't even think about since it does not affect them or anyone they know. I also think it would be really cool for the disabled student resource center to partner with the computer science department to set up a list of volunteers who are users on screen readers to sit with students and test the accessibility of their code as a learning experience. Thank you in advance for your help Suzanne From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 19:54:24 2014 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 15:54:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Giving You The Spice Of Life, The Djd Invasion Returns To Sky106 Tonight Message-ID: Hi All! With all the changes coming to the program lineup on Sky now, The Djd Invasion is one of those changes. After Amy's show from 4 to 7 PM eastern, join me for The Djd Invasion show. We have some cool remakes, some songs from the European charts, the usual variety of pop rock and country, your requests, and we've all heard what the fox says according to Ylvis. Tonight, find out what the fox did. As always, you can contact me on twitter at ddunphyradio or sky106radio You can search my song library for the tune you want at http://www.daviddunphyradio.com/requests Contact me via skype at daviddunphyradio Call me at 516 945 9165 Download the TeamTalk installer at http://www.daviddunphyradio.com and join me and friends on teamtalk to chat And don't forget to join me by tuning into the stream too! Access it at http://sky106.net or use the mobile player that works for all mobile devices at http://www.daviddunphyradio.com click the play link there and you're on. Or you can put the following into your media player of choice: http://listen.sky106.net:9016/stream and enjoy! Hope to see you all there! >From David Dunphy From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 20:33:57 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 16:33:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Accessibility presentation in my computing ethics class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c701cf3ca0$10523290$30f697b0$@gmail.com> I'm going to get my thoughts together and respond, but when do you need this by. Give me a ttime line so I can better assist you. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 2:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; nfbcs at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Accessibility presentation in my computing ethics class I sent this out last week and got a few replies. I am hoping for many more and would like some personal experiences. I will be presenting to future software developers so here is a chance to tell them issues that exist, frustrations with new releases no longer being accessible and what is needed for accessibility. I would like accessibility to be discussed throughout the computer science degree program so the more information I can provide the better. I am a legally blind computer science student at Arizona State University. I am currently taking a course in computing ethics. I chose to do my presentation on computing and the disabled. There are only a couple of pages in our text about it that talk about accessibility but also talk about companies deciding not to provide accommodation becasue technology now allows employees to work remote. I will be researching the subject but I know that the people on these lists have vast knowledge so I thought this was the perfect place to ask questions. I am a user of mac zoom and zoontext so I dont' know a lot about the specific accessibility issues when using JAWS So here are some of my questions. Also feel free to offer information on anything I may have left outs. What do software developers need to do to ensure the software they develop is accessible via a screen reader? Is is just things like in visual studio setting the Accessibility Properties of a control like a combo box? When I use ZoomText the insertion point is tracked in some software but not others. What needs to be done to allow tracking? Does the software need to expose something? What makes a web page accessible vs not accessible with speech? What have been people's experiences with things like blackboard, or other sites you are required to use in school to access your class, turn in assignments, take online quizzes/tests etc. Where can a developer go to learn about requirements for accessibility, what makes a program or webpage more accessible Does anyone have experience on the job in which a program you were using was accessible but they came out with a new version that was no longer accessible? Specific examples would be really helpful What laws exist concerning accessibility to computers, software etc? I would really love to show a demo of someone who is really experienced with JAWS especially someone who works in the computer science field. Would any one be willing to provide me with a short video of you working so the students can see how we work in the field? I would provide a link to my dropbox for the video. I can do any required editing. After I present to the class, I am planning on providing my presentation to the dean of computer science and explain why I believe accessibility should be taught from the beginning to computer science students. If they learn to at least think about it when learning to develop software I believe they will be more likely to do it in practice. I believe most people don't even think about since it does not affect them or anyone they know. I also think it would be really cool for the disabled student resource center to partner with the computer science department to set up a list of volunteers who are users on screen readers to sit with students and test the accessibility of their code as a learning experience. Thank you in advance for your help Suzanne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 20:51:56 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 16:51:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} Fwd: Mike Honda has responded to the petition: Pass TEACH Act: Equal Access to Educational Materials for Students with Disabilities References: <531e20383953a_1c4a12ec088330bb@production-change-main-resque-03.mail> Message-ID: <584A66A9-1613-4664-BB5A-CE1EFAC9A47C@gmail.com> Hello All, The following is an update on our TEACH Act petition which I received from Change.org today. I'm not entirely sure who Mike Honda is, but according to the message he is a "decision maker" who has influence in this matter. See response below. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: "Change.org" > Date: March 10, 2014 at 4:27:36 PM EDT > To: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com > Subject: Mike Honda has responded to the petition: Pass TEACH Act: Equal Access to Educational Materials for Students with Disabilities > Reply-To: "Change.org" > > > > > > > > Chris, > > You signed Pass TEACH Act: Equal Access to Educational Materials for Students with Disabilities > > Mike Honda has responded: > > > "Jamie, thank you for bringing attention to this issue. My heart goes out to you, and to every college student who’s been held back because of a lack of support for their disability. In the 21st century, when higher education has become increasingly..." read more > > March 10, 2014 > > > See the full response > > You can join in the conversation by visiting the decision makers response page and leaving a comment about what you think should happen next. > > This is an important step on the road to victory. Congrats! > > - The Change.org Team > > > > > This email was sent by Change.org to dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com. > Unsubscribe from updates about this petition > You can edit your notification preferences or unsubscribe from Change.org emails. > Start a petition on Change.org > > Mailing Address: 216 West 104th Street, Suite #130 · New York, NY 10025 · USA > From sgermano at asu.edu Mon Mar 10 21:37:02 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:37:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Accessibility presentation in my computing ethics class In-Reply-To: <00c701cf3ca0$10523290$30f697b0$@gmail.com> References: <00c701cf3ca0$10523290$30f697b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you. My presentation is April 4th so there is some time. On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 1:33 PM, justin williams wrote: > I'm going to get my thoughts together and respond, but when do you need > this > by. Give me a ttime line so I can better assist you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne > Germano > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 2:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; nfbcs at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Accessibility presentation in my computing ethics > class > > I sent this out last week and got a few replies. I am hoping for many more > and would like some personal experiences. I will be presenting to future > software developers so here is a chance to tell them issues that exist, > frustrations with new releases no longer being accessible and what is > needed > for accessibility. I would like accessibility to be discussed throughout > the > computer science degree program so the more information I can provide the > better. > > I am a legally blind computer science student at Arizona State University. > I am currently taking a course in computing ethics. I chose to do my > presentation on computing and the disabled. There are only a couple of > pages > in our text about it that talk about accessibility but also talk about > companies deciding not to provide accommodation becasue technology now > allows employees to work remote. > > I will be researching the subject but I know that the people on these lists > have vast knowledge so I thought this was the perfect place to ask > questions. I am a user of mac zoom and zoontext so I dont' know a lot about > the specific accessibility issues when using JAWS > > So here are some of my questions. Also feel free to offer information on > anything I may have left outs. > > What do software developers need to do to ensure the software they develop > is accessible via a screen reader? > Is is just things like in visual studio setting the Accessibility > Properties > of a control like a combo box? > When I use ZoomText the insertion point is tracked in some software but not > others. What needs to be done to allow tracking? Does the software need to > expose something? > What makes a web page accessible vs not accessible with speech? > What have been people's experiences with things like blackboard, or other > sites you are required to use in school to access your class, turn in > assignments, take online quizzes/tests etc. > Where can a developer go to learn about requirements for accessibility, > what > makes a program or webpage more accessible Does anyone have experience on > the job in which a program you were using was accessible but they came out > with a new version that was no longer accessible? Specific examples would > be > really helpful What laws exist concerning accessibility to computers, > software etc? > I would really love to show a demo of someone who is really experienced > with > JAWS especially someone who works in the computer science field. Would any > one be willing to provide me with a short video of you working so the > students can see how we work in the field? I would provide a link to my > dropbox for the video. I can do any required editing. > > After I present to the class, I am planning on providing my presentation to > the dean of computer science and explain why I believe accessibility should > be taught from the beginning to computer science students. If they learn to > at least think about it when learning to develop software I believe they > will be more likely to do it in practice. I believe most people don't even > think about since it does not affect them or anyone they know. > > I also think it would be really cool for the disabled student resource > center to partner with the computer science department to set up a list of > volunteers who are users on screen readers to sit with students and test > the > accessibility of their code as a learning experience. > > Thank you in advance for your help > Suzanne > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 00:35:22 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:35:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <4139A2B50F8A4F1BB8A146A24D5B4D30@OwnerPC> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> <5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC> <0621D491-3B65-42CC-A26D-10382F152390@gmail.com> <4139A2B50F8A4F1BB8A146A24D5B4D30@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, Braille beats is pretty set in terms of curriculum, although the schedule varries from year to year depending on how many students are there, the age range, what activities have been planned, etc. Every year students can count on music theory classes, art, keyboard ensemble practice, individual practice on solos or anything else that needs to get done on an individual basis, and usually a movement activity. In the past music history and jazz history classes were also taught, although we did not have either this past year. There are opportunities to play in large and small ensembles, as well as perform as a soloist in an end-of-week recital, and on a more informal talent show. Speakers are typically brought in to talk about or demonstrate things, and Daniel Kish has also taught flash sonar techniques. Depending on the staff there and the instruments the students play, lessons may be offered, although they are generally not needed for older students. Braille music is the same; if you have a good handle on it you may not receive as much instruction, but for those who are learning instruction is every day. As I said, the program is open to students 9 years of age through college, and about 5 or 6 of us who go are college students ourselves. We don't really have counselors though, as the staff pretty much runs everything. There is one guy kind of counselor figure, and a blind woman who stay in the cabins with the younger kids. However, most of the time they just act as role models and don't have much to worry about. Most of the students who have attended Braille Beats come in from out of state, and have pretty good independence skills. >From what I understand the summer braille music institute is not being held this year because the staff is trying to improve the program for the future. So, I think the intention is to have it in 2015. I know the plan was to take 2013 off and have it again in 2014, but the staff felt like they needed to take more time to really improve the program. I'll look up the stuff on that jazz camp. It might take me a while because if I no longer have the information I'll have to go through my braille music institute contacts to find it. On 3/10/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Kaiti, > Thanks for this info. What type of things are taught at Braille Beats? > Is it structured with classes and lectures, or how is it run? > Do you live in dorms? How many kids attend per session? > > Do you know if counselors were paid? > > Bell is a good idea, especially for me. Its volunteer based though. Since > I've contemplated becoming a teacher of vision impaired, this would give me > > experience with kids. I'll look into that. I've not heard if they planned > the dates in VA yet. > > Do you know if they will hold the summer Braille music institute again? I > was dismayed to learn there was no program this year. > I know a few teens who could probably benefit from such camps, and maybe > when they are older, they can be counselors. > > I did all my music by listening. I had no one to teach me braille music and > > have tried large print which proved hard to read it and play it and I lacked > > patience to learn music anyway. > > I played piano and sung in middle school choir. > This to say, I have interest in music, and wish I had attended the camps you > > speak of, but I did not know about them, until senior year when I met a low > > vision girl who went to a music camp for blind students. > I wish there was an adult version of Braille Beats. > > Yes, please send info about the jazz camps. Thanks. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 1:43 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs > > Hi all, > > I have only done a small number of counselor-ish things, but I've had > very positive experiences. A few summers ago I was a junior counselor > at a day camp for children with special needs, mostly Down Syndrome. > This was a great experience for me, and the kids had fun too. The > hardest part in that experience was working with kids who were very > severely disabled, as well as those who were very highly functioning. > I had to split my time between making sure one of the students didn't > try to leave the building because she had a habit of wondering off, > and keeping the highest functioning student engaged. Of course, I > also had to devote time and attention to those who fell into the gap > between the 2, but it worked out okay. > > My other experience as a counselor of sorts has been in the NFB Ohio > Bell Program. I was one of the teachers last summer and loved it! > I'm looking forward to going back, and had a blast working with the > kids. The affiliate has gotten great reports from parents too, and 2 > of our students even came to speak about BELL at our state convention > a few months ago. BELL might be something both of you consider; it's > a great time, and it can actually teach counselors/teachers a lot, > too. > > As far as music camps go, I know of a few. Braille Beats is one I > have personally attended as a student for years, although students are > welcome through college age and a lot of the work is handled by the > adult directors. The Summer Braille Music Institute, the program you > spoke of in Philadelphia, is another good one that I have attended. > However, you are right that it has not been held last year, and will > not be held this summer as well while the directors are looking into > improving the program. I've heard of a jazz camp in Louisiana, and > there also is a jazz-specific summer program I looked into attending > last summer held at Berkely School of Music in Mas. I can try to find > the information in my inbox again and send it to you to pass on to > your friend, Ashley, if you think he'd be interested. From what > you've written, that one sounds like it might be right up his ally. > > On 3/9/14, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Sure. He is welcome to contact me at this email address if he has any >> direct >> questions. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Chris, >>> can I forward your email to him? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs >>> >>> Ashley, >>> >>> The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille >>> beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many >>> good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open >>> to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just >>> for >>> blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him >>> or >>> you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them >>> here >>> in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? >>> I >>> ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our >>> bell >>> programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a >>>> conservatory >>>> is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or >>>> help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. >>>> He >>>> could also teach assistive technology somewhere. >>>> >>>> I've considered being a camp counselor too. >>>> >>>> Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be >>>> nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. >>>> I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook >>>> school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, >>>> would >>>> like to hear about that. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From theblindtech at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 01:25:53 2014 From: theblindtech at gmail.com (Gabe Vega) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:25:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training Webinar Using Microsoft Cloud products from a blindness perspective Message-ID: Please forward to all who are interested who can benefit from this training. When: March 28th 2014 at 1:00PM Eastern Where: Online Webinar Price: 19.99 (50% off for current Commtech Subscribers) What: Commtech LLC is hosting a webinar on using Microsoft products in the cloud from a blindness perspective. the blind are often mislead to believing that cloud services are difficult or not accessible to the blind and we are here to show you they are. from outlook.com to office.com and even onedrive.com if you are a trainer wanting to teach your students something new, modern and staying with the times. or a consumer wanting to learn for yourself, your school or your job. come join us for this exciting, modern, one of a kind webinar. to purchase a seat please click the link below. http://commtechusa.net/store/?catid=6 Or to read more about the event visit our blog at http://commtechusa.net/using-office-in-the-cloud/ Gabe Vega CEO Commtech LLC Web: http://commtechusa.net FaceBook: http://facebook.com/commtechllc Twitter: http://twitter.com/commtechllc Email: info at commtechusa.net Phone: (888) 351-5289 ext. 710 Fax: (480) 535-7649 From wmodnl at hotmail.com Tue Mar 11 04:29:39 2014 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:29:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: References: <0N2600GISCY4MZA0@vms173023.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Sent from my iPad > On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:34 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Sami, > no Andrew is in VA with me. > I know overbrook school is in PA, I might have not been clear. What I meant was the summer camp I thought existed was in NY. I knew about the michigan one, but > did not know its name, now I do. > > Thanks. > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- From: sami osborne > Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 11:12 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs > > Hi Ashley and all. > > I usually don't answer to topics like this, because I usually > don't attend summer camps, you know, since every summer we go to > France. However, this year I am going to atjend a pre-college > camp here in New York. > I also have a few things to add on this topic. > Ashley, I'm sorry if I went off-topic, but is your friend named > Andrew Zhang, who lives in New York and who attends the same > music school for the blind on Saturdays as I do, and who also > p'lays the piano? > I'm just curious. > I don't know of any music camps except for the one my brother > goes to now during the summers. It is here in Nyack, and it's > not for the blind. My brother plays the violin. > And no, Overbrook School for the Blind isn't in New York, it's > in Pennsylvania. I just wanted to let you know of that. > Minh, yes, I know camp abilities. I go to the one in > Pennsylvania during memorial day weekends to do sports, and I > like it a lot and it's alot of fun. I would therefore encourage > anyone interested in sports to give it a try. Note: I believe > the maximum age you can be is 19, I might be wrong, though. > With the hope that Andrew will find the best music camp for him, > > Sami. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date sent: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 22:13:53 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs > > Hi all, > > My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a > conservatory is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music > for people and / or help blind kids learn about music whether its > theory or braille music. He could also teach assistive > technology somewhere. > > I've considered being a camp counselor too. > > Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It > would be nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far > away. > I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at > overbrook school for the blind but I think I read its not running > this year. > > > > If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp > counselor, would like to hear about that. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ligne14%40ver > izon.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.comThe camp for the blind in New York is Visions Vacation Camp for the Blind. They may have renamed themselves as the Visions Center on Blindness. They are i Spring Valley, NY. You can read more at: www.visionsvcb.org Hope this helps. From ALewis at nfb.org Tue Mar 11 12:14:13 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:14:13 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] The Horrors of Atalissa Message-ID: <76c48861a3124c269c455a477aeada75@BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> The Horrors of Atalissa https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/horrors-atalissa Monday, March 10, 2014 On Sunday, March 9, the New York Times published "The Boys in the Bunkhouse," which tells the story, in excruciating and horrific detail, of the men who worked for Henry's Turkey Service in Atalissa, Iowa. The article largely speaks for itself, and raises a critical question: how could this happen? But the article does not provide the answer, at least not directly, so we will make the attempt. History teaches that whenever any group of human beings is viewed as inferior and marked for different treatment, that group becomes subject to exploitation and abuse. This is true even if the badge of inferiority was not necessarily intended to lead to that result. In 1938, Congress created a separate system of employment for people with disabilities, a system which is not subject to the minimum wage and other labor protections that non-disabled American workers enjoy. This system was created out of a belief that disabled workers were not as productive as other workers and would not be given the opportunity to work at all unless their employers were exempted from the normal rules. The intent was compassionate, but workers with disabilities were clearly marked as inferior to others. When we believe our fellow human beings to be inferior, we lay the groundwork for slowly and inexorably stripping them of their very humanity. That is what happened to the men of Henry's Turkey Service. They were called boys even though they were men; their self-determination and free will were stripped from them; and as the eyes of the people of Atalissa and the world withdrew, the so-called "boys" were isolated, punished in ever-more-frightening ways for even minor perceived infractions, and forced to live in conditions unfit for animals. And this was all done to them by people who claimed, and still have the nerve to claim, to love them. What happened in Atalissa does not happen in every sheltered workshop in quite the same horrific way, but it is the ultimate, logical outcome of marking American workers with disabilities as inferior. That is why nothing less than the abolition of Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act can redeem the suffering of the men of Atalissa and correct the injustice being done to all American workers with disabilities who toil under special wage certificates. No mediocre half-measure will do. To deny workers with disabilities the same labor protections as everyone else is to deny their humanity. To read the full article, please visit http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/09/us/the-boys-in-the-bunkhouse.html?_r=1. To watch the corresponding video, please visit http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000002757071/the-men-of-atalissa.html. Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Deputy Executive Director National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 659-5129 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org Twitter: @AnilLife The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture. From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 12:25:07 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:25:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Message-ID: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> Good Morning Nabs Members, I'm planning to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell Program. Do you know anyone who would be willing to help me with this? From mikgephart at icloud.com Tue Mar 11 12:31:26 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:31:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> References: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <373D5030-58CD-4A82-ADB2-D437203F8708@icloud.com> Do they have to live in FL? Sent from my iPad On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > Good Morning Nabs Members, > > I'm planning to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell Program. Do you know anyone who would be willing to help me with this? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 12:32:39 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 05:32:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> References: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <18945B4B-76C3-4EC6-9F51-D671A6E95999@gmail.com> Hello, Who is the coordinator in Florida? Maybe you could work with them? This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 11, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > > Good Morning Nabs Members, > > I'm planning to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell Program. Do you know anyone who would be willing to help me with this? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Tue Mar 11 12:36:02 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:36:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <18945B4B-76C3-4EC6-9F51-D671A6E95999@gmail.com> References: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> <18945B4B-76C3-4EC6-9F51-D671A6E95999@gmail.com> Message-ID: <14F5D31C-9327-47BA-A5E8-30969AD1DCDD@icloud.com> Or the lead teacher/ another volunteer? Sent from my iPad On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:32 AM, Darian wrote: > Hello, > Who is the coordinator in Florida? Maybe you could work with them? > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Mar 11, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: >> >> Good Morning Nabs Members, >> >> I'm planning to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell Program. Do you know anyone who would be willing to help me with this? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 12:41:38 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:41:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Message-ID: <531f0485.425d8c0a.01d2.fffffc73@mx.google.com> I don't know but I'll email the editor and ask him. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 12:44:33 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:44:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> References: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3F179D7D-6992-4E11-ACD6-CC81E996077C@gmail.com> You might contact Natalie Shaheen at our national office. She may be able to put you in contact with the person(s) who is/are in charge of the Florida BELL Program. If you are only writing about your experiences involving BELL and are only looking for writing help, I would be happy to give some feedback. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > > Good Morning Nabs Members, > > I'm planning to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell Program. Do you know anyone who would be willing to help me with this? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 12:45:58 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:45:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <14F5D31C-9327-47BA-A5E8-30969AD1DCDD@icloud.com> References: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> <18945B4B-76C3-4EC6-9F51-D671A6E95999@gmail.com> <14F5D31C-9327-47BA-A5E8-30969AD1DCDD@icloud.com> Message-ID: The coordinator is most often the lead teacher also. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:36 AM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > > Or the lead teacher/ another volunteer? > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:32 AM, Darian wrote: >> >> Hello, >> Who is the coordinator in Florida? Maybe you could work with them? >> >> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >> >>> On Mar 11, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: >>> >>> Good Morning Nabs Members, >>> >>> I'm planning to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell Program. Do you know anyone who would be willing to help me with this? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 12:54:59 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:54:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Message-ID: <531f07a6.443cec0a.4020.08e9@mx.google.com> Do you have Natalie's email address? I emailed the editor about this and am still waiting on a response from him. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 13:10:08 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:10:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <531f07a6.443cec0a.4020.08e9@mx.google.com> References: <531f07a6.443cec0a.4020.08e9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <467EB7E5-5CAC-4A20-8230-88BFB94DBBDB@gmail.com> Natalie's email is nshaheen at nfb.org. Gary may not know the people to contact in Florida, but Natalie definitely has this information. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > > Do you have Natalie's email address? I emailed the editor about this and am still waiting on a response from him. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 13:18:46 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 06:18:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <531f07a6.443cec0a.4020.08e9@mx.google.com> References: <531f07a6.443cec0a.4020.08e9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1A3AB17F-702B-4C28-B93E-B442D26EC172@gmail.com> Can connect you with the belt program coordinator. If personal experiences or what you want to share then seeking assistance from someone on this list might be beneficial to you. Good luck If you are writing about the belt program it's self that you will want to contact the coordinator. This is a good opportunity to be in contact with your affiliate president as they will want to get to know you and This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 11, 2014, at 5:54 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > > Do you have Natalie's email address? I emailed the editor about this and am still waiting on a response from him. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Tue Mar 11 13:27:23 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 07:27:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Horrors of Atalissa In-Reply-To: <76c48861a3124c269c455a477aeada75@BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <76c48861a3124c269c455a477aeada75@BLUPR07MB689.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <531F0F3B.5090201@comcast.net> I will never look at turkey the same way again. Omg, omg, omg, I never thought this was even going on. I will never look at work the same way again. Beth On 3/11/2014 6:14 AM, Lewis, Anil wrote: > The Horrors of Atalissa > > https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/horrors-atalissa > > > > Monday, March 10, 2014 > > > > On Sunday, March 9, the New York Times published "The Boys in the Bunkhouse," which tells the story, in excruciating and horrific detail, of the men who worked for Henry's Turkey Service in Atalissa, Iowa. The article largely speaks for itself, and raises a critical question: how could this happen? But the article does not provide the answer, at least not directly, so we will make the attempt. History teaches that whenever any group of human beings is viewed as inferior and marked for different treatment, that group becomes subject to exploitation and abuse. This is true even if the badge of inferiority was not necessarily intended to lead to that result. In 1938, Congress created a separate system of employment for people with disabilities, a system which is not subject to the minimum wage and other labor protections that non-disabled American workers enjoy. This system was created out of a belief that disabled workers were not as productive as other workers and would not be given the opportunity to work at all unless their employers were exempted from the normal rules. The intent was compassionate, but workers with disabilities were clearly marked as inferior to others. When we believe our fellow human beings to be inferior, we lay the groundwork for slowly and inexorably stripping them of their very humanity. That is what happened to the men of Henry's Turkey Service. They were called boys even though they were men; their self-determination and free will were stripped from them; and as the eyes of the people of Atalissa and the world withdrew, the so-called "boys" were isolated, punished in ever-more-frightening ways for even minor perceived infractions, and forced to live in conditions unfit for animals. And this was all done to them by people who claimed, and still have the nerve to claim, to love them. What happened in Atalissa does not happen in every sheltered workshop in quite the same horrific way, but it is the ultimate, logical outcome of marking American workers with disabilities as inferior. That is why nothing less than the abolition of Section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standards Act can redeem the suffering of the men of Atalissa and correct the injustice being done to all American workers with disabilities who toil under special wage certificates. No mediocre half-measure will do. To deny workers with disabilities the same labor protections as everyone else is to deny their humanity. > > > > > > > > To read the full article, please visit http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/09/us/the-boys-in-the-bunkhouse.html?_r=1. To watch the corresponding video, please visit http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000002757071/the-men-of-atalissa.html. > > > > Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. > Deputy Executive Director > > National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute > 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place > Baltimore, Maryland 21230 > > (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) > (410) 659-5129 (FAX) > Email: alewis at nfb.org > Web: www.nfb.org > Twitter: @AnilLife > > The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. > > To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 14:01:53 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 10:01:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Message-ID: <531f1754.8589e00a.7525.115f@mx.google.com> Can you please ask her to email me? I have tried to email her twice and it has come back to me. From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 14:47:38 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 10:47:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <531f1754.8589e00a.7525.115f@mx.google.com> References: <531f1754.8589e00a.7525.115f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2A520B37-B22E-45BB-8E60-B7AE68281C3B@gmail.com> I would try again. I checked and this is the right spelling of her last name. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2014, at 10:01 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > > Can you please ask her to email me? I have tried to email her twice and it has come back to me. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Tue Mar 11 16:16:29 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:16:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] several Apple questions In-Reply-To: References: <007e01cf3bcc$b5798180$206c8480$@net> Message-ID: <2C596981-5A8C-4446-8CA3-D273B211976C@fuse.net> Hi I will try to explain this as best as I can. When writing an email, there is the keyboard at the bottom of the screen. Above that is the email I am writing. When I touch that part of the screen there is a small clicking sound and my cursor is placed On that line. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:29 PM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: > > Hi Lillie. > Can you elaborate more on your email problem? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 9, 2014, at 15:21, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> >> >> I could probably find all of these answers in a google search, but the first >> results I was finding had a lot of clicking and pictures in their answers, >> and not keyboard commands, so I thought I'd ask here to see if anyone knew >> what I could do. >> >> First, since I upgraded to IOS seven, my iPhone has this movable cursor with >> writing emails. I can no longer read a draft of an email without my place in >> the email being messed up. Is there any way I can turn this off. >> >> >> >> Second, I found my iPod Nano the other day and want to update it with new >> music. I haven't updated it since 2009, and really don't remember how to do >> it. >> >> >> >> Third, I know you can copy files out of your itunes library and place them >> on a thumb drive or in another location. However, I use iTunes sharing and >> am linked to my dads library that way. Is there any way to copy these files >> out of that library or otherwise have access to them so I can put them on my >> iPod? I'd prefer to not have to have him send them to me via drop box or on >> a flash drive, but I guess I could do that. >> >> >> >> Thank you for any help. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Tue Mar 11 16:20:16 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 12:20:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] sat prep In-Reply-To: References: <530c04ed.21af3c0a.43b7.ffffb68c@mx.google.com> <16622A61-15BB-4B18-A052-9EDA524A5B16@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi I know I am jumping into this late but the college board has books in Braille and practice tests that you can request. Hth Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 25, 2014, at 12:19 AM, minh ha wrote: > > College Board does offer free study materials, but from my experience, > they're not that accessible or helpful when it comes to math. I know > there are SAT prep books on bookshare so definitely check those out. > Also, there are usually SAT prep programs in the community that you > can get involved with and they usually pair you up with a personal > tutor who can help you address your weaknesses. When I was taking the > SAT's, I approached my math teacher and asked him if he would be > willing to help me work through some issues I was having and he was > really enthusiastic about staying after school to give me some extra > help. I think this could be a viable option for you to pursue. Also > see if there are any students in your school who have taken the SAT's > and who would be willing to tutor you for free as part of community > service; it's a great resume booster that doesn't take up that much > time. Hope this helps and good luck studying. > Minh > >> On 2/24/14, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Hey Sophie, >> >> Does your school offer SAT Prep classes? If so, I would suggest taking this >> course for math--I will definitely do that next year. There is also study >> material on the College Board's Web site. >> >> HTH, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 9:50 PM, Sophie Trist >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey NABSsters, >>> >>> I'm a junior in high school, and as the subject of my email suggests, I'm >>> going to take the SAT in May. Have any of you taken the SAT? If so, what >>> are some good tips for studying and preparing? I took the PSAT and got an >>> awesome score in English, but math, my weakest subject, needs some serious >>> work. Any tips will be seriously appreciated. >>> >>> Yours sincerely, >>> Sophie >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 17:32:29 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 11:32:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor References: <531f00a6.24a3ec0a.1420.2b77@mx.google.com> Message-ID: You can also contact the editor of the braille monetor. His name is gary wunder gwunder at nfb.org . HTH! Have a blessed day. Best, Melissa R Green and PJ Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roanna Baccchus" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:25 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Good Morning Nabs Members, I'm planning to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell Program. Do you know anyone who would be willing to help me with this? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 17:36:05 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 13:36:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Message-ID: <531f4988.891fec0a.3c16.028a@mx.google.com> I have contacted him twice in the past two days and he has not responded. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 11 18:54:36 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 14:54:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <531f4988.891fec0a.3c16.028a@mx.google.com> References: <531f4988.891fec0a.3c16.028a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0035C15E04AC446580D4019DDFB532F2@OwnerPC> Hi, I'm sure he will respond; give it a few days; I think being the editor is a part time job, so he may not check his email every day. -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Baccchus Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 1:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor I have contacted him twice in the past two days and he has not responded. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From mary.nelle at earthlink.net Wed Mar 12 00:21:46 2014 From: mary.nelle at earthlink.net (Mary Nelle McLennan) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:21:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] BANA to Hold 2014 Spring Meeting in Philadelphia, April 3, 4, and 5 Message-ID: Press Release March 2014 For Immediate Release CONTACT: Frances Mary D’Andrea, Chair Braille Authority of North America Phone: 412-521-5797 Email: literacy2 at mindspring.com BANA to Hold 2014 Spring Meeting in Philadelphia, April 3–5 The Braille Authority of North America (BANA), which meets face-to-face semiannually, will hold its 2014 spring meeting April 3–5 in Philadelphia, PA. This meeting will be hosted by Associated Services for the Blind (ASB), a BANA member organization. Meetings­including an Open Forum on Saturday, April 5­will take place at ASB, which is located at 919 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, PA, 19107. Items on the Board’s agenda include updates of BANA’s numerous ongoing projects. The Board will review formal reports from all of BANA's technical committees such as music, math, foreign language, and tactile graphics and will take action on recommendations when appropriate. BANA continues to plan the transition to Unified English Braille (UEB) in the United States. In-depth reports will be presented by BANA’s UEB Task Force, which is made up of Kim Charlson (ACB), Frances Mary D’Andrea (AFB), Judy Dixon (NLS), Jennifer Dunnam (NFB), Cindi Laurent (NBA), Mary Nelle McLennan (APH), and Sue Reilly (CTEBVI). As always, interested parties are invited to observe the BANA Board meetings. If you are interested in observing the BANA meeting, please contact BANA Chair Frances Mary D’Andrea at 412-521-5797 or by email at literacy2 at mindspring.com. On Saturday, April 5, from 11:00 AM to 12:30 PM, BANA will host an Open Forum at ASB. This forum provides a venue for participants to discuss braille with the Board and to learn more about the workings of BANA. Open Forum participants are encouraged to express their views and suggestions surrounding braille and its future. Braille readers, teachers, and students as well as producers and distributors of braille are encouraged to take advantage of this opportunity to participate in a round-table discussion with the members of the BANA Board. To reserve your space at the Open Forum and to help ensure accurate counts for handouts, contact Frances Mary D’Andrea as indicated above. NOTE: This press release is available in HTML on the BANA website at http://www.brailleauthority.org/pressreleases/pr-2014-3.html For additional resource information, visit www.brailleauthority.org The Board of BANA consists of appointed representatives from seventeen member organizations of braille producers, transcribers, teachers, and consumers. The mission of the Braille Authority of North America is to assure literacy for tactile readers through the standardization of braille and/or tactile graphics. The purpose of BANA is to promote and to facilitate the uses, teaching, and production of braille. Pursuant to this purpose, BANA will promulgate rules, make interpretations, and render opinions pertaining to braille codes and guidelines for the provisions of literary and technical materials and related forms and formats of embossed materials now in existence or to be developed in the future for the use of blind persons in North America. When appropriate, BANA shall accomplish these activities in international collaboration with countries using English braille. In exercising its function and authority, BANA shall consider the effects of its decisions on other existing braille codes and guidelines, forms and formats; ease of production by various methods; and acceptability to readers. _______________________________________________ BANA-Announce mailing list BANA-Announce at brailleauthority.org http://www.brailleauthority.org/mailman/listinfo/bana-announce From kim at senderogroup.com Wed Mar 12 00:23:39 2014 From: kim at senderogroup.com (Kim Casey) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:23:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Releasing 2014 Sendero GPS products and KeyMaps for BrailleNote! Message-ID: Greetings from Sendero! This 2014 version is Sendero's 18th release and we have yet another surprise for you. After 14 years, blind users of Sendero products have asked for and gotten improvements that make the BrailleNote and Braille Sense products flexible and powerful­earning them the title of the Cadillac of GPS, functionality that is also available on the Windows PC. To encourage you to keep your Cadillac of GPS up to date, all upgrades, no matter which version you have, will be a fraction of previous upgrade pricing. Purchase by the end of April for only $49. What’s new in 2014? There are a few important bug fixes under the hood. The main improvement is in the 2014 map data and POIs. If you have Sendero Maps, 2014 maps and POIs are available. Updates to all products are best managed from your Sendero Maps software on the Windows PC, which comes free with new BrailleNote GPS or Sense Nav GPS purchases. The BrailleNote classic was the first electronic portable braille device which served as the launching pad for Sendero's GPS software in 2001. Sendero and HumanWare have a very special update for BrailleNote Apex users in 2014. The next release of the BrailleNote's interface, KeySoft 9.4.1 for the BrailleNote Apex, will include KeyMaps. KeyMaps is a free virtual navigation tool which allows you to: * Download your country's maps directly to the BrailleNote Apex using its internet connection. No need to use a PC, KeyMaps guides you through the simple process to download the map directly to the BrailleNote Apex. * Search for an address and explore the area around it. Traveling to a hotel next week? Search for it in KeyMaps and virtually learn the area and what is around the hotel before you even arrive. * Walking to a grocery store you haven't been to yet? Search for its address or name in KeyMaps and learn the best route to take before you head out. * Use KeyMaps as a phonebook: Want the phone number to make a reservation at that new restaurant people can't stop talking about? Search for it in KeyMaps and instantly see the phone number, address, and distance from you, and so much more. If you would like to upgrade from Keymaps to the full BrailleNote GPS including Bluetooth GPS receiver for outdoor usage, it will now be $599, nearly half its previous price. Stay tuned for a HumanWare announcement about the KeySoft release. Current BrailleNote GPS customers can upgrade today* for only $49 at http://senderogroup.com/products/shopgps.htm#gpsupg (*limited time offer valid through the end of April 2014). Sense Navigation customers go to: http://senderogroup.com/products/shopvsnav.htm#upg. We encourage using Sendero PC Maps to upgrade your PDA GPS versions. It is by far the easiest way to upgrade as well as an excellent tool to use in conjunction with your PDA or mobile device such as Seeing Eye GPS for the iPhone. For more information, visit http://www.senderogroup.com/products/shopmaps.htm See the following links for tutorials with specifics on using Sendero Maps to upgrade. For BrailleNote GPS instructions on the Apex, go to: http://www.senderogroup.com/MP3/installingsenderomapsApex.mp3 For Sense Nav instructions, go to: http://www.senderogroup.com/MP3/installing_sense_navigation_with_senderomaps.mp3 For those who have a free upgrade available, visit http://www.GoSendero.com and log in with your username and password to access your account. For problems with accounts or passwords, call your respective manufacturer or Sendero at 1-888-757-6810. For technical support, please read the support documentation before contacting your manufacturer http://senderogroup.com/support/support.htm. If you are attending the CSUN conference, visit our CSUN schedule webpage to see how you can connect with Sendero. http://senderogroup.com/news/csunform.asp To obtain help with your upgrade to 2014, visit your respective manufacturer’s CSUN booth. Happy independent traveling. “It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive.” ---------- [] This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. From graduate56 at juno.com Wed Mar 12 00:35:25 2014 From: graduate56 at juno.com (melissa R green) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:35:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] colorado asociation of guide dog users seminar. Message-ID: Anouncing the first ever colorado asociation of guide dog users seminar. Attached is the seminar flier in both word and PDF. I will also paste the flier in this message. It has the contact information to RSvP. Hope to see you there. Woman walking with her Guide Dog The Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users (COAGDU) Is a proud division of the National Association of Guide Dog Users and the NFB of Colorado Present “Tails, Wags, & Pack” Guide Dog 101 Saturday May 31, 2014 10:00 am – 4:00 pm Colorado Center for the Blind 2233 West Shepperd Ave, Littleton, CO Learn About Access Rights, Is a Guide Dog for You?, Care of Guide Dogs, Guide Dogs and Your Life, Guide Dog versus White Cane, And MUCH More! Representatives Will Speak From ADA, TSA, RTD, Guide Dog Schools, Guide Dog Users & More RSVP by May 15th to Penn Street Call: 970-581-4922 or Email: icyimi at gmail.com ($5.00 Suggested Donation includes Membership, Lunch & Door Prize Drawings) Have a blessed day. Best, Melissa R Green COAGDU President Some people come into your life just to teach you how to let go. "melissa R green" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2dbb34.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13184 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: COAGDU Seminar Flyer1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 21830 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: COAGDU Seminar Flyer1.doc Type: application/msword Size: 37376 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cathy at blindtraining.com Wed Mar 12 00:49:25 2014 From: cathy at blindtraining.com (CathyAnne) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:49:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Free Windows 8.1 Online Seminar Message-ID: Join me Saturday, April 5, 2014 for a free online seminar - An Introduction to Windows 8.1. Space is limited so please register early! To review the seminar schedule and register, please visit: http://www.blindtraining.com/Seminars/Win8.1Intro.html I hope to see you there! CathyAnne CathyAnne Murtha Director Access Technology Institute Twitter: www.twitter.com/CathyAnneMurtha Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CathyAnneMurtha cathy at blindtraining.com www.blindtraining.com _______________________________________________ News mailing list News at lists.blindtraining.com http://lists.blindtraining.com/listinfo.cgi/news-blindtraining.com From matt.dierckens at me.com Wed Mar 12 01:53:34 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 21:53:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] several Apple questions In-Reply-To: <2C596981-5A8C-4446-8CA3-D273B211976C@fuse.net> References: <007e01cf3bcc$b5798180$206c8480$@net> <2C596981-5A8C-4446-8CA3-D273B211976C@fuse.net> Message-ID: Hi Lilie. Correct, this is for reviewing the text that you just typed, I don't understand why you would want to turn that off, as you can't, since that's where your inset ion is. Hope this was helpful. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Mar 11, 2014, at 12:16 PM, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi > I will try to explain this as best as I can. > When writing an email, there is the keyboard at the bottom of the screen. Above that is the email I am writing. When I touch that part of the screen there is a small clicking sound and my cursor is placed On that line. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:29 PM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: >> >> Hi Lillie. >> Can you elaborate more on your email problem? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 9, 2014, at 15:21, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> >>> >>> I could probably find all of these answers in a google search, but the first >>> results I was finding had a lot of clicking and pictures in their answers, >>> and not keyboard commands, so I thought I'd ask here to see if anyone knew >>> what I could do. >>> >>> First, since I upgraded to IOS seven, my iPhone has this movable cursor with >>> writing emails. I can no longer read a draft of an email without my place in >>> the email being messed up. Is there any way I can turn this off. >>> >>> >>> >>> Second, I found my iPod Nano the other day and want to update it with new >>> music. I haven't updated it since 2009, and really don't remember how to do >>> it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Third, I know you can copy files out of your itunes library and place them >>> on a thumb drive or in another location. However, I use iTunes sharing and >>> am linked to my dads library that way. Is there any way to copy these files >>> out of that library or otherwise have access to them so I can put them on my >>> iPod? I'd prefer to not have to have him send them to me via drop box or on >>> a flash drive, but I guess I could do that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you for any help. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 10:37:51 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 03:37:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The National Association of Blind Students Presents: a philosophy discussion Message-ID: <04BA4D42-E3D0-4CFD-88F4-759989CC788D@gmail.com> Greetings Fellow Students! For all of what we do in the federation, it is always important to remember that every bit of it is rooted in our philosophy; our unshakeable belief in blind people. our philosophy is expressed in many different ways. One of those ways is our many riveting banquet speeches. These speeches have been given over the years by some of our greatest leaders and illustrate clearly our beliefs on the true abilities of the blind and our relentless pursuit of full integration on the basis of equality. On sunday, may 16, the National Association of Blind Students presents a philosophy discussion based on the speech “blindness: a left-handed dissertation”. We are happy to have Sarah Patnaude as our moderator for this call. Sarah is president of our Virginia Association of Blind Students and a member of the membership committee of the National Association of Blind Students. For those of you who may not be familiar with the speech; you can find it here:https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/convent/blndnesl.htm. So to recap… Who?: The National Association of Blind STudents What?: philosophy discussion based upon “blindness: a left-handed dissertation”. When?: Sunday, March 16, 2014 at 7p.m. ET Where? conference call (605)475-6700. Code:7869673. Talk to you then! The National Association of Blind STudents. : . Darian Smith 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students (415) 215-9809 dsmithnfb at gmail.com. twitter: @goldengateace www.nabslink.org Follow the National Association of Blind Students on twitter: @nabslink. “ A good Head and a good heart are always a formidable combination” - Nelson Mandela. > > Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further > Donate your car to the National Federation of the Blind today! > For more information, please visit: www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 From ALewis at nfb.org Wed Mar 12 14:27:07 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:27:07 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] True Integrity in Providing Equal Wage Protections Message-ID: I offer the following as an example of true integrity in providing equal wage protections from Goodwill of Goodwill Industries of Northern New England. Our Policy and Practice Concerning Wages http://www.goodwillnne.org/public-policy/commitment-standard-minimum-wage/ While we are a proud member of Goodwill Industries International, we make completely localized decisions including the way Goodwill of Northern New England compensates all employees. Since 1996, it has been our policy and practice to always meet or exceed the minimum wage for our over 1700 employees of all abilities in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont. A Resolution to Affirm Goodwill Industries of Northern New England's Commitment to the Standard of Minimum Wage; and to Actively Support Public Policy Initiatives that Align with this Commitment At Goodwill Industries of Northern New England (GoodwillNNE), our integrity revolves around how closely we adhere to our fundamental belief in the value of every human being and the 'place' where we live - the environment and the economy that brings structure to our communities. As affirmed by GoodwillNNE's Board of Directors in 2013, it is our policy and practice to always meet or exceed minimum wage for all our employees in Maine, New Hampshire and northern Vermont. As we connect people who face diverse challenges to jobs in the marketplace, we ensure that they, too, are paid competitive wages, never less than the established minimum wage. This practice is core to our principles - and, is essential to the well being of our employees and the communities where we all live. We know that this is a local issue. Community based organizations, including other Goodwills, practice based on their experiences and leadership. In 1996, GoodwillNNE ceased sub minimum wage compensation within its employment opportunities. This resolution formally affirms that GoodwillNNE supports public policy initiatives that align with our commitment to always meet or exceed minimum wage for all workers in our region. Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Deputy Executive Director National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 659-5129 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org Twitter: @AnilLife The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture. From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 14:37:04 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 10:37:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Message-ID: <53207116.886fb60a.297e.ffffb117@mx.google.com> Dear Nabs Members, Yesterday I posted that I wanted to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell program. Natalie Shaheen at our national office said that it would be inappropriate to do it because the coordinator opted not to write about the program for the Monitor. Gary Wunder also told me via email that articles for this year will be written when the 2014 Bell season is over. I'd really like to write an article for the Braille Monitor. Can you give me some suggestions as to what I could write about? From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 14:55:00 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 07:55:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <53207116.886fb60a.297e.ffffb117@mx.google.com> References: <53207116.886fb60a.297e.ffffb117@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55F8E695-63A7-4F26-A930-DEDC2405F3E3@gmail.com> Hello, It sounds as if you are really interested in writing for the monitor. May I ask why? I think that the best person to talk ideas with is probably Gary. It also might be a good idea to read up on recent issues of the monitor to get a feel for what has been featured. Has there been a theme? What does the content look like? This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 12, 2014, at 7:37 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > > Dear Nabs Members, > > Yesterday I posted that I wanted to write an article for the Braille Monitor about the Florida Bell program. Natalie Shaheen at our national office said that it would be inappropriate to do it because the coordinator opted not to write about the program for the Monitor. Gary Wunder also told me via email that articles for this year will be written when the 2014 Bell season is over. I'd really like to write an article for the Braille Monitor. Can you give me some suggestions as to what I could write about? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 14:58:41 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 10:58:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Message-ID: <53207626.a413b60a.34d3.ffffa9cf@mx.google.com> I've seen other students such as chris Nusbaum write for the Monitor. I think it would be really fun for me. From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 15:37:59 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 08:37:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <53207626.a413b60a.34d3.ffffa9cf@mx.google.com> References: <53207626.a413b60a.34d3.ffffa9cf@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <368890E1-C12D-488D-9767-209C869E6E4B@gmail.com> Personally, I find that writing for the monitor is a good thing to do if you have the opportunity to do so. What I mean by opportunity is primarily that you have something of substance to contribute. I’ve also found that writing for the Student Slate was a fun thing to do. For those who don’t know, the student slate is the Publication the National Association of Blind STudents puts out. It’s very much a similar publication to the braille monitor but that the slate obviously has more of a student focus. To be clear, neither publication competes with the other, but I might say that one has more of specialized focus where as the other tries to have content reflective of the general populous of the federation. if you find you are experiencing writer’s block (you don’t quite know what you want to write, it’s perfectly fine to wait until you do and contact Gary at that point. good luck, Darian . On Mar 12, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > I've seen other students such as chris Nusbaum write for the Monitor. I think it would be really fun for me. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 21:53:56 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 15:53:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] a question. Message-ID: <948507914FDF43E8BEA6C4DB6A369F5F@HP30910210001> Hi all. I was told that there may be a blind student coming into the school where I have my job. my boss wants to know if it would be legal for me to braill books for this student to read. I saw a lot for blind adults but not for children who are K-12. I believe that I can until the family is signed up with vision services. But want to have documentation to show that this can be done and that no copyright laws are broken. any links or directions are apreciated. It will be little books and I know my teachers did it all of the time. Just want to practice CYA. Lol! Thanks in advance. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj "Only one thing has to change for us to know happiness in our lives: where we focus our attention." From jhud7789 at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 21:59:40 2014 From: jhud7789 at gmail.com (Joseph Hudson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:59:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] a question. In-Reply-To: <948507914FDF43E8BEA6C4DB6A369F5F@HP30910210001> References: <948507914FDF43E8BEA6C4DB6A369F5F@HP30910210001> Message-ID: Hello Melissa, I don't see that there will be any kind of a problem with that. It's just like having a brave list brill you books. On 3/12/14, melissa Green wrote: > Hi all. > I was told that there may be a blind student coming into the school where I > > have my job. my boss wants to know if it would be legal for me to braill > books for this student to read. I saw a lot for blind adults but not for > children who are K-12. I believe that I can until the family is signed up > with vision services. But want to have documentation to show that this can > > be done and that no copyright laws are broken. any links or directions are > > apreciated. It will be little books and I know my teachers did it all of > the time. Just want to practice CYA. Lol! > Thanks in advance. > Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > "Only one thing has to change for us to know happiness in our lives: where > we focus our attention." > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jhud7789%40gmail.com > -- Joseph Hudson phone 2544661251 From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 13 01:42:37 2014 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:42:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Website Creator Message-ID: <0CC77D3B-5DF5-4662-9E33-F7D692130C92@yahoo.com> Hello, does anyone know of any websites where you can create your own website that does not require flashl software? Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey From lizzym0827 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 13:37:32 2014 From: lizzym0827 at gmail.com (lizzy) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:37:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible College Websites Message-ID: <5321b4b0.454be00a.5a58.4504@mx.google.com> Hi All, I'm wondering if those of you with experience using the following websites have had any issues using them, more specifically with Window-Eyes or Voice Over. Moodle: Apparently it's an online classroom similar to blackboard or D to L. 2. alcohol.edu A college health type course. 3. The third one is a software used primarily for psychology and statistics labs called PSS something or other (don't remember all of the letters), I saw a post about it a while ago, and I don't think it was accessible, so what do you all use/do as an alternative? Thanks! Lizzy From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 13:38:00 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:38:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: <368890E1-C12D-488D-9767-209C869E6E4B@gmail.com> References: <53207626.a413b60a.34d3.ffffa9cf@mx.google.com> <368890E1-C12D-488D-9767-209C869E6E4B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, I am on the student slate committee, and I have personally written an article about the Ohio Bell Program. If you would like to contribute an article about the program held in Florida, you can contact me off list about it. On 3/12/14, Darian Smith wrote: > Personally, I find that writing for the monitor is a good thing to do if > you have the opportunity to do so. What I mean by opportunity is primarily > that you have something of substance to contribute. > I've also found that writing for the Student Slate was a fun thing to do. > For those who don't know, the student slate is the Publication the > National Association of Blind STudents puts out. > It's very much a similar publication to the braille monitor but that the > slate obviously has more of a student focus. To be clear, neither > publication competes with the other, but I might say that one has more of > specialized focus where as the other tries to have content reflective of > the general populous of the federation. > if you find you are experiencing writer's block (you don't quite know > what you want to write, it's perfectly fine to wait until you do and > contact Gary at that point. > good luck, > Darian . > On Mar 12, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: > >> I've seen other students such as chris Nusbaum write for the Monitor. I >> think it would be really fun for me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 14:29:18 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 10:29:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <53207626.a413b60a.34d3.ffffa9cf@mx.google.com> <368890E1-C12D-488D-9767-209C869E6E4B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Roanna and All, As Roanna very kindly pointed out, I have recently written an article which was published in the June, 2013 issue of the Monitor. Like Darian, I found writing for the Monitor to be a wonderful opportunity and hope to contribute more in the future. In my experience, Gary Wunder (the Monitor's current editor) is very open-minded and genuinely enjoys hearing/reading the thoughts of all Federationists in the Monitor and otherwise. If he finds your article of interest and/or benefit to Monitor readers, he will most likely publish it. If he doesn't feel it can be published at this time, he may give you some tips on making your writing better. Gary is a very nice guy and one who I have been priveleged to get to know. Though I've never written an article for the Slate, I have read many an issue and find it a great publication. This may be a good place to get your first article published as you work up to a publication with a wider readership such as the Monitor. As Darian mentioned, however, the Slate is geared toward blind students specifically. If you would like to write an article about the BELL Program from the perspective of how it benefited you as a student, the Slate might be the best magazine in which to publish it. However, if you are addressing your comments toward all Federationists with the hope that your story might inspire more blind people—both students and adults—to volunteer for the BELL Program, it might be best to send it to the Monitor. My advice would be to consider your audience and write your article first, deciding where to send it later. You could even send it to both publications; it may be published in both! All you can do is write it from your heart and send it on. I never thought my article (the first I had written for any NFB publication) would be ran in the Monitor, but I sent it anyway and it was. I hope these comments and suggestions help you as you write your article. If you need any further help, please feel free to write to me off-list. I look forward to reading your contribution in one of our magazines soon. Good luck, Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2014, at 9:38 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hello, > > I am on the student slate committee, and I have personally written an > article about the Ohio Bell Program. If you would like to contribute > an article about the program held in Florida, you can contact me off > list about it. > >> On 3/12/14, Darian Smith wrote: >> Personally, I find that writing for the monitor is a good thing to do if >> you have the opportunity to do so. What I mean by opportunity is primarily >> that you have something of substance to contribute. >> I've also found that writing for the Student Slate was a fun thing to do. >> For those who don't know, the student slate is the Publication the >> National Association of Blind STudents puts out. >> It's very much a similar publication to the braille monitor but that the >> slate obviously has more of a student focus. To be clear, neither >> publication competes with the other, but I might say that one has more of >> specialized focus where as the other tries to have content reflective of >> the general populous of the federation. >> if you find you are experiencing writer's block (you don't quite know >> what you want to write, it's perfectly fine to wait until you do and >> contact Gary at that point. >> good luck, >> Darian . >>> On Mar 12, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: >>> >>> I've seen other students such as chris Nusbaum write for the Monitor. I >>> think it would be really fun for me. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 14:49:55 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 07:49:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking students with community Service experience. Message-ID: <9E7BCF7A-5333-480D-88FF-51A96B8A654C@gmail.com> Hi all, the Community Service Group of the National Federation of the Blind is seeking students (middle school, high school or college) who are doing or might have recently done community service work. We are looking for potential entries for the community service group blog and/or potential presenters at our seminar at national convention. if you think this is you, please contact me directly (off-list) at dsmithnfb at gmail.com many thanks, Darian Smith From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 15:58:57 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (rbacchus228 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:58:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <53207626.a413b60a.34d3.ffffa9cf@mx.google.com> <368890E1-C12D-488D-9767-209C869E6E4B@gmail.com> Message-ID: hi Chris thanks for your message. i have decided to write about the lack of braille educN in the United States. Let me know what you think. Sent from my iPad > On Mar 13, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: > > Roanna and All, > > As Roanna very kindly pointed out, I have recently written an article which was published in the June, 2013 issue of the Monitor. Like Darian, I found writing for the Monitor to be a wonderful opportunity and hope to contribute more in the future. In my experience, Gary Wunder (the Monitor's current editor) is very open-minded and genuinely enjoys hearing/reading the thoughts of all Federationists in the Monitor and otherwise. If he finds your article of interest and/or benefit to Monitor readers, he will most likely publish it. If he doesn't feel it can be published at this time, he may give you some tips on making your writing better. Gary is a very nice guy and one who I have been priveleged to get to know. > > Though I've never written an article for the Slate, I have read many an issue and find it a great publication. This may be a good place to get your first article published as you work up to a publication with a wider readership such as the Monitor. As Darian mentioned, however, the Slate is geared toward blind students specifically. If you would like to write an article about the BELL Program from the perspective of how it benefited you as a student, the Slate might be the best magazine in which to publish it. However, if you are addressing your comments toward all Federationists with the hope that your story might inspire more blind people—both students and adults—to volunteer for the BELL Program, it might be best to send it to the Monitor. My advice would be to consider your audience and write your article first, deciding where to send it later. You could even send it to both publications; it may be published in both! All you can do is write it from your heart and send it on. I never thought my article (the first I had written for any NFB publication) would be ran in the Monitor, but I sent it anyway and it was. I hope these comments and suggestions help you as you write your article. If you need any further help, please feel free to write to me off-list. I look forward to reading your contribution in one of our magazines soon. > > Good luck, > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 13, 2014, at 9:38 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I am on the student slate committee, and I have personally written an >> article about the Ohio Bell Program. If you would like to contribute >> an article about the program held in Florida, you can contact me off >> list about it. >> >>> On 3/12/14, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Personally, I find that writing for the monitor is a good thing to do if >>> you have the opportunity to do so. What I mean by opportunity is primarily >>> that you have something of substance to contribute. >>> I've also found that writing for the Student Slate was a fun thing to do. >>> For those who don't know, the student slate is the Publication the >>> National Association of Blind STudents puts out. >>> It's very much a similar publication to the braille monitor but that the >>> slate obviously has more of a student focus. To be clear, neither >>> publication competes with the other, but I might say that one has more of >>> specialized focus where as the other tries to have content reflective of >>> the general populous of the federation. >>> if you find you are experiencing writer's block (you don't quite know >>> what you want to write, it's perfectly fine to wait until you do and >>> contact Gary at that point. >>> good luck, >>> Darian . >>>> On Mar 12, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: >>>> >>>> I've seen other students such as chris Nusbaum write for the Monitor. I >>>> think it would be really fun for me. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 16:45:32 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:45:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <53207626.a413b60a.34d3.ffffa9cf@mx.google.com> <368890E1-C12D-488D-9767-209C869E6E4B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7DFF60DC-E8B9-4F29-BD11-0975CA45ED53@gmail.com> I think that's always an important topic to write about. However, because of its importance many people have written about it, especially in blindness-related publications such as the Monitor. Do you have personal experience with lacking education in Braille? If so, this may make your article more unique and thus more likely to be published. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2014, at 11:58 AM, rbacchus228 at gmail.com wrote: > > hi Chris thanks for your message. i have decided to write about the lack of braille educN in the United States. Let me know what you think. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 13, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> >> Roanna and All, >> >> As Roanna very kindly pointed out, I have recently written an article which was published in the June, 2013 issue of the Monitor. Like Darian, I found writing for the Monitor to be a wonderful opportunity and hope to contribute more in the future. In my experience, Gary Wunder (the Monitor's current editor) is very open-minded and genuinely enjoys hearing/reading the thoughts of all Federationists in the Monitor and otherwise. If he finds your article of interest and/or benefit to Monitor readers, he will most likely publish it. If he doesn't feel it can be published at this time, he may give you some tips on making your writing better. Gary is a very nice guy and one who I have been priveleged to get to know. >> >> Though I've never written an article for the Slate, I have read many an issue and find it a great publication. This may be a good place to get your first article published as you work up to a publication with a wider readership such as the Monitor. As Darian mentioned, however, the Slate is geared toward blind students specifically. If you would like to write an article about the BELL Program from the perspective of how it benefited you as a student, the Slate might be the best magazine in which to publish it. However, if you are addressing your comments toward all Federationists with the hope that your story might inspire more blind people—both students and adults—to volunteer for the BELL Program, it might be best to send it to the Monitor. My advice would be to consider your audience and write your article first, deciding where to send it later. You could even send it to both publications; it may be published in both! All you can do is write it from your heart and send it on. I never thought my article (the first I had written for any NFB publication) would be ran in the Monitor, but I sent it anyway and it was. I hope these comments and suggestions help you as you write your article. If you need any further help, please feel free to write to me off-list. I look forward to reading your contribution in one of our magazines soon. >> >> Good luck, >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 13, 2014, at 9:38 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I am on the student slate committee, and I have personally written an >>> article about the Ohio Bell Program. If you would like to contribute >>> an article about the program held in Florida, you can contact me off >>> list about it. >>> >>>> On 3/12/14, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Personally, I find that writing for the monitor is a good thing to do if >>>> you have the opportunity to do so. What I mean by opportunity is primarily >>>> that you have something of substance to contribute. >>>> I've also found that writing for the Student Slate was a fun thing to do. >>>> For those who don't know, the student slate is the Publication the >>>> National Association of Blind STudents puts out. >>>> It's very much a similar publication to the braille monitor but that the >>>> slate obviously has more of a student focus. To be clear, neither >>>> publication competes with the other, but I might say that one has more of >>>> specialized focus where as the other tries to have content reflective of >>>> the general populous of the federation. >>>> if you find you are experiencing writer's block (you don't quite know >>>> what you want to write, it's perfectly fine to wait until you do and >>>> contact Gary at that point. >>>> good luck, >>>> Darian . >>>>> On Mar 12, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Roanna Baccchus wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I've seen other students such as chris Nusbaum write for the Monitor. I >>>>> think it would be really fun for me. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rbacchus228%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 17:05:02 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:05:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Update On Writing An Article For The Braille Monitor Message-ID: <5321e545.62ecb60a.1ede.ffffb0c1@mx.google.com> Hi Kattie do you have facetime? Maybe we can facetime sometime today about this. From kd8qiq at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 17:53:02 2014 From: kd8qiq at gmail.com (jeff crouch- k8tvv) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:53:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] texas state university Message-ID: Hey all, I am looking at going to texas state university in 2 years, I was wanting some peoples experience who have gawn there. How is getting around the campis? Is there good services there? And just anything else that you can think of. I am wanting to go in to the undergrad program for psychology. Anything would help. thanks -- Skype: magic2127 FB: apdc19 at gmail.com http://www.twitter.com/k8tvv 73 K8TVV Jeff Crouch From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 23:57:13 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:57:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate Message-ID: <532245e1.c3ef320a.3ac8.71b6@mx.google.com> Dear Nabs Members, I am thinking about writing an article for the Student Slate. I am going to be writing about the benefits of attending a public school as a blind student. Do you think this is a good topic for the Student Slate? If not can you give me some ideas as to what I could write about? From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Mar 14 01:14:37 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 21:14:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate In-Reply-To: <532245e1.c3ef320a.3ac8.71b6@mx.google.com> References: <532245e1.c3ef320a.3ac8.71b6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00fa01cf3f22$c4d2a1d0$4e77e570$@net> Hi Roanna, I could be wrong here, but I am not sure that this is the best topic for the Student Slate. A large percentile of the readers are college students or are out of high school so I am not sure how much interest your article would have. Perhaps this would be better placed in the Parents Future Reflections Magazine? If you were to do this I would recommend placing statistics, case studies/examples, and other facts in this article so that it has more weight and credibility to it, because you will most likely generate a wider reading base this way. What I have noticed about the Student Slate is that it is mainly empowering articles about what students or young blind adults are doing. You may want to view the other articles from past issues to see what sorts of issues are discussed. One article that has always stood out to me was an article on how a blind person could use a grill with mostly common household tools. Have you done something awesome that you think it would help the blind public to know about? Are you a member of an NFB devision and would like to premote it? Would you like to write about the NFB has changed you? Are you doing an activity in your school or in the community that you think is kind of unusual and could provide inspiration to other blind people? Good Luck -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roanna Baccchus Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 7:57 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate Dear Nabs Members, I am thinking about writing an article for the Student Slate. I am going to be writing about the benefits of attending a public school as a blind student. Do you think this is a good topic for the Student Slate? If not can you give me some ideas as to what I could write about? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse. net From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 01:23:11 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 21:23:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate In-Reply-To: <532245e1.c3ef320a.3ac8.71b6@mx.google.com> References: <532245e1.c3ef320a.3ac8.71b6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9E0C4B1DD75C460CA0D3BB486A976094@Helga> Hi Roanna, this is Helga! How are you? I was just thinking, why don't you write about the Teach Act. And if you write about the Teach Act, you could express your opinions in how this Act will help us as students in our colleges, and universities. And in that way, we can make this Teach Act become a Law soon. What do you think about that? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Baccchus Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 7:57 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate Dear Nabs Members, I am thinking about writing an article for the Student Slate. I am going to be writing about the benefits of attending a public school as a blind student. Do you think this is a good topic for the Student Slate? If not can you give me some ideas as to what I could write about? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 02:22:56 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 22:22:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] texas state university In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cf3f2c$504d2e20$f0e78a60$@gmail.com> Hi, I'm a Texas State alum. Getting around the campus is great as long as you're fine with steps and stairs all over the place. It's in the Hill Country. What can you do? Beautiful campus though. In terms of services, they're okay, but you have to advocate for yourself. They're not going to be proactive or offer some of the services people at A&M or the University of Texas are accustomed to recieving. I only took two courses in psychology as an undergrad, but the professors were excellent. Otherwise, there are nice people, lots of activities and student organizations, decent night life, and Austin is just up the road on 35. San Antonio is just down the road on the same highway, but who would want to go there? :) Take it easy, and write me off list if you need further help.--Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of jeff crouch- k8tvv Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 1:53 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] texas state university Hey all, I am looking at going to texas state university in 2 years, I was wanting some peoples experience who have gawn there. How is getting around the campis? Is there good services there? And just anything else that you can think of. I am wanting to go in to the undergrad program for psychology. Anything would help. thanks -- Skype: magic2127 FB: apdc19 at gmail.com http://www.twitter.com/k8tvv 73 K8TVV Jeff Crouch _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 14:09:28 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 10:09:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate Message-ID: <53230da0.612e320a.3710.ffffea99@mx.google.com> Hi Helga I think this is a good idea. Can you provide me with some facts about the Teach Act? From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 14:23:21 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 07:23:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reminder: The National Association of Blind Students Presents: a philosophy discussion In-Reply-To: <04BA4D42-E3D0-4CFD-88F4-759989CC788D@gmail.com> References: <04BA4D42-E3D0-4CFD-88F4-759989CC788D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42F81A1A-3BFB-4599-A910-E950DDA401B2@gmail.com> > Greetings Fellow Students! > > For all of what we do in the federation, it is always important to remember that every bit of it is rooted in our philosophy; our unshakeable belief in blind people. > our philosophy is expressed in many different ways. One of those ways is our many riveting banquet speeches. > These speeches have been given over the years by some of our greatest leaders and illustrate clearly our beliefs on the true abilities of the blind and our relentless pursuit of full integration on the basis of equality. > On sunday, may 16, the National Association of Blind Students presents a philosophy discussion based on the speech “blindness: a left-handed dissertation”. > We are happy to have Sarah Patnaude as our moderator for this call. > Sarah is president of our Virginia Association of Blind Students and a member of the membership committee of the National Association of Blind Students. > For those of you who may not be familiar with the speech; you can find it here:https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/convent/blndnesl.htm. > > So to recap… > Who?: The National Association of Blind STudents > What?: philosophy discussion based upon “blindness: a left-handed dissertation”. > When?: Sunday, March 16, 2014 at 7p.m. ET > Where? conference call (605)475-6700. Code:7869673. > Talk to you then! > The National Association of Blind STudents. : . > > > > Darian Smith > 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students > (415) 215-9809 > dsmithnfb at gmail.com. > twitter: @goldengateace > > www.nabslink.org > Follow the National Association of Blind Students on twitter: @nabslink. > “ A good Head and a good heart are always a formidable combination” > - Nelson Mandela. >> >> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further >> Donate your car to the National Federation of the Blind today! >> For more information, please visit: www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 15:19:53 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:19:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible College Websites In-Reply-To: <5321b4b0.454be00a.5a58.4504@mx.google.com> References: <5321b4b0.454be00a.5a58.4504@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, I have never used moodle, so I cannot personally speak to its accessibility. However, a lot of the platforms similar to moodle, including blackboard and sakai, are making really big strides in accessibility. My school did require me to complete courses on alcohol.edu, and the site was completely inaccessible. I tried to appeal to the company's IT people, and they said they would make changes (However, I know from my sister taking the course that it looks exactly the same as it did when I took it). There really aren't many alternatives for it, other than having someone go through it with you. My mom was able to sit down with me for a few hours, and we got through the reading, quizzes, and video modules pretty easily. The good thing, though, is that the video modules are so corney that you get a lot of what you need from the dialog. I don't think my mom actually had to describe much. If the psych program you're referring to is called Psych Lab, I have used it and had pretty good success with it. I didn't run into any major issues when I was using it for my abnormal psychology class last spring, so you should be good to go if this is the program you need to use. On 3/13/14, lizzy wrote: > Hi All, > I'm wondering if those of you with experience using the following > websites have had any issues using them, more specifically with > Window-Eyes or Voice Over. > Moodle: Apparently it's an online classroom similar to blackboard > or D to L. > 2. alcohol.edu A college health type course. > 3. The third one is a software used primarily for psychology and > statistics labs called PSS something or other (don't remember > all of the letters), I saw a post about it a while ago, and I > don't think it was accessible, so what do you all use/do as an > alternative? > Thanks! > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 15:28:34 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:28:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: Good morning all, The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be beginning work on Saturday Mar 22 at 7:00 PM Eastern. We will have a brief meeting to meet, brainstorm ideas for getting started, and to see where we want to go in the next several months. Some of you have already indicated your interest in helping with this project, and I have written your names down so there is no need to worry about being forgotten. I thank you for your quick responses to my initial email. If you have not already emailed to tell me you are interested in this project, and would still like to help, please email me at this address, crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com. I will send out the conference number and access code Saturday morning. Have a good weekend, Kaiti Shelton. President, Ohio Association of Blind Students. -- Kaiti ' From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 17:11:28 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:11:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate In-Reply-To: <53230da0.612e320a.3710.ffffea99@mx.google.com> References: <53230da0.612e320a.3710.ffffea99@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Roanna, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I don't really have facts yet, I just have my own opinion about it. In fact, I have some attachments that I learn in my Government class, when we were discussing about how a bill becomes a Law in Congress. And actually my Government Professor gave us an assignment where we needed to answer some questions regarding another bill, where we actually needed to find information regarding the bill online. So I actually going to attach some documents that you might find interesting. The first document is about 19 steps in How a Bill becomes a Law, the second document is about an Overview in Congressional Committees, which means how committees work in Congress, and the third document is about Teach Act questions that we can answer, or we can think about, this were actually the questions that my Professor gave us in order to answer the other Bill, which I actually change the name of it, but if you want you can investigate about them. I actually want to answer them by looking at the Teach Act Bill, but I'm not able to do it right now, since I'm very busy with school assignments, but I will eventually do it! And Just to let you know, below is going to be a link of the Teach Act Bill, where you can get more information about the Teach Act bill. Hope this info helps! And if you have a chance to answer the questions, could you let me know the answers? I will really appreciate it a lot! only if you have time of course! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much for listening to me. God bless! :) http://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th/house-bill/3505 P.S. Sorry all for cluttering the list with this message. However, if you are interested about the information I attached in here, feel free to read it! Again sorry, sorry for cluttering the list! Thanks again! -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Baccchus Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 10:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate Hi Helga I think this is a good idea. Can you provide me with some facts about the Teach Act? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Teach Act Peitition Questions to answer and think about.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 13091 bytes Desc: not available URL: From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 17:30:31 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:30:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate In-Reply-To: <53230da0.612e320a.3710.ffffea99@mx.google.com> References: <53230da0.612e320a.3710.ffffea99@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Roanna, this is Helga! Here is another link that you might find interesting as well! this is a link of the change.org site if you have not receive it! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) http://www.change.org/petitions/pass-teach-act-equal-access-to-educational-materials-for-students-with-disabilities/responses/10846 -----Original Message----- From: Roanna Baccchus Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 10:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate Hi Helga I think this is a good idea. Can you provide me with some facts about the Teach Act? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From johnniejduran at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 20:01:18 2014 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:01:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Mike Honda has responded to the petition: Pass TEACH Act: Equal Access to Educational Materials for Students with Disabilities In-Reply-To: <531e264157d9b_a6944f0844951d@app-metal-05.change.org.mail> References: <531e264157d9b_a6944f0844951d@app-metal-05.change.org.mail> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Change.org" Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 15:53:21 -0500 Subject: Mike Honda has responded to the petition: Pass TEACH Act: Equal Access to Educational Materials for Students with Disabilities To: johnniejduran at gmail.com Johnnie Jean, You signed Pass TEACH Act: Equal Access to Educational Materials for Students with Disabilities Mike Honda has responded: Jamie, thank you for bringing attention to this issue. My heart goes out to you, and to every college student who's been held back because of a lack of support for their disability. In the 21st century, when higher education has become increasingly... See the full response: http://www.change.org/petitions/pass-teach-act-equal-access-to-educational-materials-for-students-with-disabilities/responses/10846 This email was sent by Change.org to johnniejduran at gmail.com. Click here to change your notification preferences: http://www.change.org/account_settings/edit_email_preferences Click here to unsubscribe from Change.org emails: http://www.change.org/unsubscribe?token=7eLWDP3OkyLzCQF82OYR7OuQqoFZxUk7TfBqey1jS6k= Click here to start a petition on Change.org: http://www.change.org/start-a-petition Mailing Address: 216 West 104th Street, Suite #130 · New York, NY 10025 · USA -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: http://facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Skype: jj.duran13 Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 14 21:23:43 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 17:23:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC><9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com><5C9FF963CDF8438895DFE162CB922250@OwnerPC><0621D491-3B65-42CC-A26D-10382F152390@gmail.com><4139A2B50F8A4F1BB8A146A24D5B4D30@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <15787CA9593142A696E964DA0A4D8A7F@OwnerPC> Kaiti, Thanks. How long have you attended Braille Beats? It sounds like a good camp, but not one where you'd work there as a counselor. Do you have a point of contact for the summer Braille music institute? I think I'd want more info on that. Maybe I can suggest that to other blind students around here to attend. What were the living arrangements for the institute? Did you say your major was music therapy? If so, can I write off list and which email should I use? Andrew may want to study music therapy as a grad student. Yes, the jazz camp sounds good, and pass along the info if you have it. Thanks. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Hi Ashley, Braille beats is pretty set in terms of curriculum, although the schedule varries from year to year depending on how many students are there, the age range, what activities have been planned, etc. Every year students can count on music theory classes, art, keyboard ensemble practice, individual practice on solos or anything else that needs to get done on an individual basis, and usually a movement activity. In the past music history and jazz history classes were also taught, although we did not have either this past year. There are opportunities to play in large and small ensembles, as well as perform as a soloist in an end-of-week recital, and on a more informal talent show. Speakers are typically brought in to talk about or demonstrate things, and Daniel Kish has also taught flash sonar techniques. Depending on the staff there and the instruments the students play, lessons may be offered, although they are generally not needed for older students. Braille music is the same; if you have a good handle on it you may not receive as much instruction, but for those who are learning instruction is every day. As I said, the program is open to students 9 years of age through college, and about 5 or 6 of us who go are college students ourselves. We don't really have counselors though, as the staff pretty much runs everything. There is one guy kind of counselor figure, and a blind woman who stay in the cabins with the younger kids. However, most of the time they just act as role models and don't have much to worry about. Most of the students who have attended Braille Beats come in from out of state, and have pretty good independence skills. >From what I understand the summer braille music institute is not being held this year because the staff is trying to improve the program for the future. So, I think the intention is to have it in 2015. I know the plan was to take 2013 off and have it again in 2014, but the staff felt like they needed to take more time to really improve the program. I'll look up the stuff on that jazz camp. It might take me a while because if I no longer have the information I'll have to go through my braille music institute contacts to find it. On 3/10/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Kaiti, > Thanks for this info. What type of things are taught at Braille Beats? > Is it structured with classes and lectures, or how is it run? > Do you live in dorms? How many kids attend per session? > > Do you know if counselors were paid? > > Bell is a good idea, especially for me. Its volunteer based though. Since > I've contemplated becoming a teacher of vision impaired, this would give > me > > experience with kids. I'll look into that. I've not heard if they planned > the dates in VA yet. > > Do you know if they will hold the summer Braille music institute again? I > was dismayed to learn there was no program this year. > I know a few teens who could probably benefit from such camps, and maybe > when they are older, they can be counselors. > > I did all my music by listening. I had no one to teach me braille music > and > > have tried large print which proved hard to read it and play it and I > lacked > > patience to learn music anyway. > > I played piano and sung in middle school choir. > This to say, I have interest in music, and wish I had attended the camps > you > > speak of, but I did not know about them, until senior year when I met a > low > > vision girl who went to a music camp for blind students. > I wish there was an adult version of Braille Beats. > > Yes, please send info about the jazz camps. Thanks. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 1:43 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs > > Hi all, > > I have only done a small number of counselor-ish things, but I've had > very positive experiences. A few summers ago I was a junior counselor > at a day camp for children with special needs, mostly Down Syndrome. > This was a great experience for me, and the kids had fun too. The > hardest part in that experience was working with kids who were very > severely disabled, as well as those who were very highly functioning. > I had to split my time between making sure one of the students didn't > try to leave the building because she had a habit of wondering off, > and keeping the highest functioning student engaged. Of course, I > also had to devote time and attention to those who fell into the gap > between the 2, but it worked out okay. > > My other experience as a counselor of sorts has been in the NFB Ohio > Bell Program. I was one of the teachers last summer and loved it! > I'm looking forward to going back, and had a blast working with the > kids. The affiliate has gotten great reports from parents too, and 2 > of our students even came to speak about BELL at our state convention > a few months ago. BELL might be something both of you consider; it's > a great time, and it can actually teach counselors/teachers a lot, > too. > > As far as music camps go, I know of a few. Braille Beats is one I > have personally attended as a student for years, although students are > welcome through college age and a lot of the work is handled by the > adult directors. The Summer Braille Music Institute, the program you > spoke of in Philadelphia, is another good one that I have attended. > However, you are right that it has not been held last year, and will > not be held this summer as well while the directors are looking into > improving the program. I've heard of a jazz camp in Louisiana, and > there also is a jazz-specific summer program I looked into attending > last summer held at Berkely School of Music in Mas. I can try to find > the information in my inbox again and send it to you to pass on to > your friend, Ashley, if you think he'd be interested. From what > you've written, that one sounds like it might be right up his ally. > > On 3/9/14, Chris Nusbaum wrote: >> Sure. He is welcome to contact me at this email address if he has any >> direct >> questions. >> >> Chris Nusbaum >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 9, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Chris, >>> can I forward your email to him? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum >>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs >>> >>> Ashley, >>> >>> The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille >>> beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many >>> good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open >>> to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just >>> for >>> blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him >>> or >>> you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them >>> here >>> in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? >>> I >>> ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our >>> bell >>> programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. >>> >>> Chris Nusbaum >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a >>>> conservatory >>>> is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or >>>> help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. >>>> He >>>> could also teach assistive technology somewhere. >>>> >>>> I've considered being a camp counselor too. >>>> >>>> Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be >>>> nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. >>>> I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook >>>> school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, >>>> would >>>> like to hear about that. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 14 21:32:02 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 17:32:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <049E8F2F317241069D5E7710681C260D@OwnerPC> Hello Chris, After speaking with Andrew more, I found out where he'd feel comfortable. He did say he would try working at a mainstream camp; after all, we both agreed music is music and its going to be pretty auditory; at general camps, we are concerned about supervision, not seeing kids run around and be in danger. But a music camp is a more controlled environment, and he might be more successful there. He would like to focus on a piano music camp because he grew up learning it and feels he could teach or assistant teach this better. He wants to work with kids not too young, like over 5 years old; but work with music students at the beginning or intermediate stages. Yes, let me know your voice teacher's name. Is this the best email to write off list? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs Ashley, The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just for blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him or you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our bell programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory > is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or > help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He > could also teach assistive technology somewhere. > > I’ve considered being a camp counselor too. > > Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be > nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. > I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook > school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. > > > > If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would > like to hear about that. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Mar 15 00:12:00 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 20:12:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs In-Reply-To: <049E8F2F317241069D5E7710681C260D@OwnerPC> References: <7963193EE64F4FF6A651CDC232182A72@OwnerPC> <9E60ED7C-36D6-4F98-9C32-CE0CD51DEE7F@gmail.com> <049E8F2F317241069D5E7710681C260D@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4F9C9E06-580A-422C-9BBC-5A80B3912680@gmail.com> I will write you off list with that information. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 14, 2014, at 5:32 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Hello Chris, > After speaking with Andrew more, I found out where he'd feel comfortable. He did say he would try working at a mainstream camp; after all, we both agreed music is music and its going to be pretty auditory; at general camps, we are concerned about supervision, not seeing kids run around and be in danger. But a music camp is a more controlled environment, and he might be more successful there. > > He would like to focus on a piano music camp because he grew up learning it and feels he could teach or assistant teach this better. > He wants to work with kids not too young, like over 5 years old; but work with music students at the beginning or intermediate stages. > > Yes, let me know your voice teacher's name. Is this the best email to write off list? > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Nusbaum > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:20 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] summer camp jobs > > Ashley, > > The only music camp I know of specifically for blind students is braille beats in Michigan. Though I haven't been to this camp, I've heard many good things about it and I'd like to go at some point. If Andrew is open to teaching at the mainstream music camp and does not want a camp just for blind kids, there are numerous music camps in the area. I could put him or you in contact with my voice teacher who is involved in some of them here in Maryland and DC. Also, what age range would he like to teach if any? I ask because this may be a cool opportunity for the kids in one of our bell programs. Just some thoughts for you to consider. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> My friend, Andrew, who is a blind student studying jazz in a conservatory is looking for a summer job. He wants to play music for people and / or help blind kids learn about music whether its theory or braille music. He could also teach assistive technology somewhere. >> >> I’ve considered being a camp counselor too. >> >> Any music camps or enrichment camps you all can recommend? It would be nice if it were on the east coast so its not so far away. >> I thought there was a camp in NY; a music camp used to run at overbrook school for the blind but I think I read its not running this year. >> >> >> >> If any of you have had positive experiences being a camp counselor, would like to hear about that. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From codyjbair at yahoo.com Sat Mar 15 02:15:12 2014 From: codyjbair at yahoo.com (Cody Bair) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 20:15:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NFBCO Scholarship Deadline April 15 References: Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: Jessica Beecham > Date: March 5, 2014 at 10:44:24 AM MST > To: Colorado-talk , cabs at nfbnet.org, Tanni , jolson at csdb.org, Jennifer Langley > Subject: NFBCO Scholarship Deadline April 15 > > Hello Friends > > It is time to apply for the 2014 NFBCO Scholarship. Please read the below flier for more information. To apply, visit the following link. http://www.nfbco.org/scholarships > > Don't forget that our National Scholarships are also available! The National deadline is March 31. Please visit the following link to apply for our National Scholarship. https://nfb.org/scholarships > > Remember, even if you have applied in the past please apply again. Winning a scholarship in a previous year does not make you ineligible to receive a NFBCO or NFB National scholarship. We are ready to give away some money so get your applications in soon! > > Best Wishes > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sat Mar 15 21:38:54 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 17:38:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate In-Reply-To: References: <53230da0.612e320a.3710.ffffea99@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, I also think this could be a pretty good article for future reflections. Would would be cool, to add to what was already suggested, would be if you interviewed several people who attended public and schools for the blind, past and present. That way you could get different perspectives on accomodations, how well the school prepared its blind students for life after graduation, how accepted the student felt with peers, etc. On 3/14/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi Roanna, this is Helga! Here is another link that you might find > interesting as well! this is a link of the change.org site if you have not > receive it! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) > http://www.change.org/petitions/pass-teach-act-equal-access-to-educational-materials-for-students-with-disabilities/responses/10846 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roanna Baccchus > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 10:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate > > Hi Helga I think this is a good idea. Can you provide me with > some facts about the Teach Act? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 16 20:36:07 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:36:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate In-Reply-To: References: <53230da0.612e320a.3710.ffffea99@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <909E9E9926204380ABBF38E5277F0EA6@OwnerPC> I agree with Kaiti; comparing schools for blind and public schools sounds good. -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate Hi, I also think this could be a pretty good article for future reflections. Would would be cool, to add to what was already suggested, would be if you interviewed several people who attended public and schools for the blind, past and present. That way you could get different perspectives on accomodations, how well the school prepared its blind students for life after graduation, how accepted the student felt with peers, etc. On 3/14/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi Roanna, this is Helga! Here is another link that you might find > interesting as well! this is a link of the change.org site if you have not > receive it! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) > http://www.change.org/petitions/pass-teach-act-equal-access-to-educational-materials-for-students-with-disabilities/responses/10846 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roanna Baccchus > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 10:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate > > Hi Helga I think this is a good idea. Can you provide me with > some facts about the Teach Act? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 20:45:39 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:45:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reminder: Today, The National Association of Blind Students Presents: a philosophy discussion In-Reply-To: <42F81A1A-3BFB-4599-A910-E950DDA401B2@gmail.com> References: <04BA4D42-E3D0-4CFD-88F4-759989CC788D@gmail.com> <42F81A1A-3BFB-4599-A910-E950DDA401B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E894F55-CA7B-4E85-B09F-A960761BBA71@gmail.com> > >> Greetings Fellow Students! >> >> For all of what we do in the federation, it is always important to remember that every bit of it is rooted in our philosophy; our unshakeable belief in blind people. >> our philosophy is expressed in many different ways. One of those ways is our many riveting banquet speeches. >> These speeches have been given over the years by some of our greatest leaders and illustrate clearly our beliefs on the true abilities of the blind and our relentless pursuit of full integration on the basis of equality. >> On sunday, may 16, the National Association of Blind Students presents a philosophy discussion based on the speech “blindness: a left-handed dissertation”. >> We are happy to have Sarah Patnaude as our moderator for this call. >> Sarah is president of our Virginia Association of Blind Students and a member of the membership committee of the National Association of Blind Students. >> For those of you who may not be familiar with the speech; you can find it here:https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/convent/blndnesl.htm. >> >> So to recap… >> Who?: The National Association of Blind STudents >> What?: philosophy discussion based upon “blindness: a left-handed dissertation”. >> When?: Sunday, March 16, 2014 at 7p.m. ET >> Where? conference call (605)475-6700. Code:7869673. >> Talk to you then! >> The National Association of Blind STudents. : . >> >> >> >> Darian Smith >> 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students >> (415) 215-9809 >> dsmithnfb at gmail.com. >> twitter: @goldengateace >> >> www.nabslink.org >> Follow the National Association of Blind Students on twitter: @nabslink. >> “ A good Head and a good heart are always a formidable combination” >> - Nelson Mandela. >>> >>> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further >>> Donate your car to the National Federation of the Blind today! >>> For more information, please visit: www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 >> > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 02:13:57 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 22:13:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate In-Reply-To: <909E9E9926204380ABBF38E5277F0EA6@OwnerPC> References: <53230da0.612e320a.3710.ffffea99@mx.google.com> <909E9E9926204380ABBF38E5277F0EA6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Roanna, When you do write your article, feel free to send it to me, as I am on the Slate committee. On 3/16/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > I agree with Kaiti; comparing schools for blind and public schools sounds > good. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kaiti Shelton > Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 5:38 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate > > Hi, > > I also think this could be a pretty good article for future > reflections. Would would be cool, to add to what was already > suggested, would be if you interviewed several people who attended > public and schools for the blind, past and present. That way you > could get different perspectives on accomodations, how well the school > prepared its blind students for life after graduation, how accepted > the student felt with peers, etc. > > On 3/14/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com > wrote: >> Hi Roanna, this is Helga! Here is another link that you might find >> interesting as well! this is a link of the change.org site if you have >> not >> receive it! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless!! :) >> http://www.change.org/petitions/pass-teach-act-equal-access-to-educational-materials-for-students-with-disabilities/responses/10846 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Roanna Baccchus >> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 10:09 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thinking About Writing For The Student Slate >> >> Hi Helga I think this is a good idea. Can you provide me with >> some facts about the Teach Act? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From matt.dierckens at me.com Mon Mar 17 15:13:03 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:13:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] IOS and Mac training Message-ID: <445CE145-E46B-4168-AF13-9495A80581EA@me.com> Good morning. Just letting you guys know, that I offer McIntosh and IOS training for a fee of only $10 an hour. Yes, I do work with blind access training, but I figured, this price may be more beneficial if some folks are unable to afford the $30/h or $80 subscription fees. So, if you or someone you know are new to the iPhone platform, or just want to brush up on your voiceover skills with both IOS and or Mac, feel free to take my offering to consideration. Payments sent via paypal please to matt.dierckens at gmail.com or call, +1-573-401-1018 Thanks Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 16:57:10 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:57:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The One Ting that Will Lower Your Cell Phone Bill Message-ID: <00fb01cf4201$f054bf00$d0fe3d00$@gmail.com> Most of you here are high school or college kids; therefore, I hope my post is not totally left field since presumably you are interested in all things that save you money. Not that you should stop being financially responsible when you are an adult, but if you are interested in a carrier I've grown to love, check out my post on the subject: The One Ting that Will Lower Your Cell Phone Bill http://joeorozco.com/blog_the_one_ting_that_will_lower_your_cell_phone_bill -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog From Melody.Roane at dbvi.virginia.gov Mon Mar 17 19:31:36 2014 From: Melody.Roane at dbvi.virginia.gov (Roane, Melody (DBVI)) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:31:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Toastmasters Message-ID: Hi, I am looking for information from blind individuals who have participated in or are currently participating in Toastmasters. Are the booklets and materials they use available in accessible formats? If so, from where are they accessible? We are looking at the possibility of chartering a group here at the rehab center in Richmond which would be open to our students and the general public. Please e-mail me off line at melody.roane at dbvi.virginia.gov about your experience with Toastmasters. Thank you for your help. Melody Roane, Director Virginia Rehabilitation Center for the Blind & Vision Impaired 401 Azalea Avenue Richmond, Virginia 23227 Phone: 804.371.3323 Email: melody.roane at dbvi.virginia.gov Worldwide Web: http://www.vrcbvi.org From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Mon Mar 17 20:11:48 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:11:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Toastmasters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Melody, Have you tried searching for any of their materials on Bookshare? Although they do not have everything under the sun, I have found their collection to be a great resource. As for anyone taking part in Toast Masters itself, if I recall correctly, I believe Isaiah Wilcox mentioned this when he ran for NABS President a couple of years ago. So perhaps you may wish to get in touch with him. I know this may not be much, but I hope it helps in some way. I think this would be a great addition to your training center. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Roane,Melody (DBVI) (by way of David Andrews)" Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 3:31 PM To: Subject: [nabs-l] Toastmasters > > Hi, > > I am looking for information from blind individuals who have participated > in or are currently participating in Toastmasters. Are the booklets and > materials they use available in accessible formats? If so, from where are > they accessible? > > We are looking at the possibility of chartering a group here at the rehab > center in Richmond which would be open to our students and the general > public. Please e-mail me off line at > melody.roane at dbvi.virginia.gov > about your experience with Toastmasters. > > Thank you for your help. > > Melody Roane, Director > Virginia Rehabilitation Center for the Blind & Vision Impaired > 401 Azalea Avenue > Richmond, Virginia 23227 > Phone: 804.371.3323 > Email: > melody.roane at dbvi.virginia.gov > Worldwide Web: http://www.vrcbvi.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 23:08:03 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:08:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] ADA and SayText app questions Message-ID: <61ECDA12784B4E729BDB9A0F8079C83E@Helga> Hi all, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to ask you some questions regarding the ADA and the SayText app that I have on my iPhone. Regarding the ADA, do I as a blind student, do I’m automatically a member of it, or do I need to apply for it? I’m just wondering. Also, regarding the SayText app, I’m trying to take a picture of a paper by using the camera on it, but for some reason is not working so well with me. Do any of you here use the SayText app? And if you do, could you tell me how do I use it in order to take a picture with it? I’m not really so sure if I’m doing it right, since I’m totally blind, and I don’t see where I’m putting the camera! LOL! Just to let you know, whenever I’m on the app, I always double tap on take picture, and after I do that, I double tap on camera, and then the camera sound goes off, but when I want to read the text of the paper I took a picture off on my iPhone, my iPhone is not reading it at all! I don’t know what I am doing wrong. I will really appreciate it if you could help me with this, since I want to read this paper, since it is an assignment with instructions that I need to follow in order to write an essay for. Hope to hear from you soon. Thank you so much and God bless!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 23:57:07 2014 From: blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com (Aleeha Dudley) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 19:57:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] ADA and SayText app questions In-Reply-To: <61ECDA12784B4E729BDB9A0F8079C83E@Helga> References: <61ECDA12784B4E729BDB9A0F8079C83E@Helga> Message-ID: <3E1F38CD-FB03-44DC-91BC-18B3E65ABDD6@gmail.com> Hello Helga, If you mean ADA as in the Americans with Disabilities Act, every person with a qualifying disability automatically is covered under its protection. As far as SayText goes, I have never found that app to work well and, as such, do not use it. Can you ask your instructor to send you an electronic copy of the assignment? Your phone's camera generally doesn't have the capability to take a good enough picture to read text. HTH, Aleeha Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 17, 2014, at 7:08 PM, wrote: > > Hi all, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to ask you some questions regarding the ADA and the SayText app that I have on my iPhone. Regarding the ADA, do I as a blind student, do I’m automatically a member of it, or do I need to apply for it? I’m just wondering. Also, regarding the SayText app, I’m trying to take a picture of a paper by using the camera on it, but for some reason is not working so well with me. Do any of you here use the SayText app? And if you do, could you tell me how do I use it in order to take a picture with it? I’m not really so sure if I’m doing it right, since I’m totally blind, and I don’t see where I’m putting the camera! LOL! Just to let you know, whenever I’m on the app, I always double tap on take picture, and after I do that, I double tap on camera, and then the camera sound goes off, but when I want to read the text of the paper I took a picture off on my iPhone, my iPhone is not reading it at all! I don’t know what I am doing wrong. I will really appreciate it if you could help me with this, since I want to read this paper, since it is an assignment with instructions that I need to follow in order to write an essay for. Hope to hear from you soon. Thank you so much and God bless!! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 02:53:00 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 22:53:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] ADA and SayText app questions In-Reply-To: <3E1F38CD-FB03-44DC-91BC-18B3E65ABDD6@gmail.com> References: <61ECDA12784B4E729BDB9A0F8079C83E@Helga> <3E1F38CD-FB03-44DC-91BC-18B3E65ABDD6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Helga, I too have not had very good luck with that app, or other OCR apps from the App Store. I would suggest asking your professor to send you an electronic copy, or taking it to your disability services office so the staff there can make the sheet accessible to you. Hope this helps. On 3/17/14, Aleeha Dudley wrote: > Hello Helga, > If you mean ADA as in the Americans with Disabilities Act, every person with > a qualifying disability automatically is covered under its protection. As > far as SayText goes, I have never found that app to work well and, as such, > do not use it. Can you ask your instructor to send you an electronic copy of > the assignment? Your phone's camera generally doesn't have the capability to > take a good enough picture to read text. > HTH, > Aleeha > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 17, 2014, at 7:08 PM, wrote: >> >> Hi all, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to ask you >> some questions regarding the ADA and the SayText app that I have on my >> iPhone. Regarding the ADA, do I as a blind student, do I'm automatically a >> member of it, or do I need to apply for it? I'm just wondering. Also, >> regarding the SayText app, I'm trying to take a picture of a paper by >> using the camera on it, but for some reason is not working so well with >> me. Do any of you here use the SayText app? And if you do, could you tell >> me how do I use it in order to take a picture with it? I'm not really so >> sure if I'm doing it right, since I'm totally blind, and I don't see where >> I'm putting the camera! LOL! Just to let you know, whenever I'm on the >> app, I always double tap on take picture, and after I do that, I double >> tap on camera, and then the camera sound goes off, but when I want to read >> the text of the paper I took a picture off on my iPhone, my iPhone is not >> reading it at all! I don't know what I am doing wrong. I will really >> appreciate it if you could help me with this, since I want to read this >> paper, since it is an assignment with instructions that I need to follow >> in order to write an essay for. Hope to hear from you soon. Thank you so >> much and God bless!! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From jim.hulme at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 13:19:33 2014 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:19:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Toastmasters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All, Recently you have mentioned both Toastmasters and Isaiah Wilcox. Here is his contact info. Please feel free to contact him. Isaiah G. Wilcox President of NFB of GA- Atlanta Chapter Treasurer of NFB of Georgia 404-291-7791 (M) 404-371-1000 (W) 404-371-1002 (Fax) His work address is: 315 West Ponce de Leon Avenue, Suite 1021 Decatur, GA 30030 His work e-mail address is: iwilcox at nfbga.org Hope this helps, Jimmy Hulme jim.hulme at gmail.com "We Care, We Share, We Make a difference." "Together we are changing what it means to be blind." On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Elizabeth Mohnke wrote: > Hello Melody, > > Have you tried searching for any of their materials on Bookshare? Although > they do not have everything under the sun, I have found their collection to > be a great resource. > > As for anyone taking part in Toast Masters itself, if I recall correctly, > I believe Isaiah Wilcox mentioned this when he ran for NABS President a > couple of years ago. So perhaps you may wish to get in touch with him. > > I know this may not be much, but I hope it helps in some way. I think this > would be a great addition to your training center. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Roane,Melody (DBVI) (by way of David Andrews)" < > Melody.Roane at dbvi.virginia.gov> > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 3:31 PM > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Toastmasters > > >> Hi, >> >> I am looking for information from blind individuals who have participated >> in or are currently participating in Toastmasters. Are the booklets and >> materials they use available in accessible formats? If so, from where are >> they accessible? >> >> We are looking at the possibility of chartering a group here at the rehab >> center in Richmond which would be open to our students and the general >> public. Please e-mail me off line at > virginia.gov>melody.roane at dbvi.virginia.gov about your experience with >> Toastmasters. >> >> Thank you for your help. >> >> Melody Roane, Director >> Virginia Rehabilitation Center for the Blind & Vision Impaired >> 401 Azalea Avenue >> Richmond, Virginia 23227 >> Phone: 804.371.3323 >> Email: melody.roane@ >> dbvi.virginia.gov >> Worldwide Web: http://www.vrcbvi.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From ALewis at nfb.org Wed Mar 19 16:50:54 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:50:54 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] March 20 Imagination Fund Call Message-ID: NFB Imaginators: The next NFB Imagination Fund telephone conference will take place Thursday, March 20, 2014 at 9PM eastern. Again, we will keep the call brief but informative. (Approximately 30 minutes.) The following is our one minute message discussed in our previous call of March 6. Please take the time to commit it to memory as a gateway statement: The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. The call in information is as follows: Dial-In Number: 877-394-5901 Access Code: 7719753 If you have not already provided your Imaginator Information, please complete the following and send it back to me at your earliest convenience. Imaginator Information Form Personal Contact Information Name: ______________________________ Address: ______________________________ City, State Zip: ______________________________ Telephone: ______________________________ Email: ______________________________ Twitter: ______________________________ Facebook: ______________________________ Donor Page Information Donation Keyword: _______________ (Note: must be between 1 and 10 characters, easy to remember, hard to misspell and not case sensitive) Fundraising Goal: $ (Note: Must be at least $1,000) Your personal Call to Action in 140 characters or less: (The default Call to Action: The NFB raises the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and their dreams. Blindness will not hold us back.) Attach a photo you would like to display on your mobile giving page, with a caption that will eventually be the text displayed in place of the photo for screen access software Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Deputy Executive Director National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 659-5129 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org Twitter: @AnilLife The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture. From jsoro620 at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 21:28:20 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 17:28:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: scholarships to SCBWI conference for undergrad and graduate students Message-ID: <00a601cf43ba$273b9cf0$75b2d6d0$@gmail.com> Each year the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators sponsors two student writer scholarships to the Summer and Winter Conferences for full-time university students in an English or Creative Writing program. Award: –Full tuition to main conference events including keynotes and breakout sessions. (Award does not include travel or hotel expenses.) –Exclusive exposure to industry professionals at the conference. –An SCBWI Conference advisor to help navigate the jammed-packed weekend. PLUS: LA Summer Conference: An individual manuscript consultation of the first twenty pages of your manuscript with an industry professional and entrance to the Writers’ Intensive. Eligibility: 1. You must be at least eighteen years old to apply. 2. All full-time students enrolled in an accredited educational institution are eligible to apply. Guidelines: One winner will be chosen from a graduate or doctoral program and one winner will be chosen from an undergraduate program. Applicants are required to submit: –Short cover letter stating why you want to attend the conference and a synopsis of your work. –Five-page sample of a manuscript –Copy of your student ID –Letter of recommendation sent directly from a professor at your university. Applications MUST BE electronically submitted as ONE PDF to kaylaDOTheinenATscbwiDOTorg kayla.heinen at scbwi.org. Letters of recommendation can be sent separately as a Word document. Applications will be judged by a panel decided by SCBWI. In the event that a recipient cannot attend for any reason, the grant committee should be notified as soon as possible. The scholarship may, in that event, be awarded to another applicant. The grant is not transferrable and cannot be postponed. SCBWI reserves the right not to award the scholarship in any given year. Deadline: April 15 From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 23:21:36 2014 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 19:21:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: Calling All Fans Of A Cappella Music Message-ID: Hi All! Get ready for an a cappella paradise that will last for 120 minutes, starting at 8 PM eastern on Sky106, right before Toonhead's Ho Down Throw Down, um I mean, his country show Hard Drive at 10PM eastern lol. Seriously though, on tonight's A Cappellas Anonymous, you'll be getting Tributes to disney and broadway An a cappella comparrison of Pharell Williams current hit Happy Some other a cappella favorites and more... As always, during the show, you can reach me on twitter at sky106radio or ddunphyradio Via skype at daviddunphyradio Via telephone at 516 945 9165 or you can go to http://www.daviddunphyradio.com where you can download and connect to me on Teamtalk To tune in, you can either go to http://www.daviddunphyradio.com http://sky106.net or put the following into your favorite media player of choice: http://listen.sky106.net:9016/stream Regardless of how you tune in, I hope to see you there, so you can hear the power and magic of the human voice as a musical instrument! I hope to see you all there! >From David Dunphy From mikgephart at icloud.com Thu Mar 20 18:08:37 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:08:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes Message-ID: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> Hi, I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you want, you can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? Mikayla Sent from my iPad From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 18:13:29 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:13:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> Message-ID: I've done distance learning for both my masters in theology, and my doctorate as well. So it is doible. RJ Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mikayla Gephart" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes > Hi, > I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you want, you > can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? > Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From johnniejduran at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 18:58:41 2014 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 11:58:41 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes In-Reply-To: References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> Message-ID: They have been awful for me. I had to take a spanish 2 course online, and it was so inaccessible, I ended up dropping out. On 3/20/14, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I've done distance learning for both my masters in theology, and my > doctorate as well. So it is doible. RJ Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mikayla Gephart" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes > > >> Hi, >> I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you want, you >> >> can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? >> Mikayla >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: http://facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Skype: jj.duran13 Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 19:07:59 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes In-Reply-To: References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> Message-ID: <049901cf446f$b5e954a0$21bbfde0$@gmail.com> Hadley is good; I'm sure there are others, but I wouldn't no of them. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of johnnie Jean duran Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Online classes They have been awful for me. I had to take a spanish 2 course online, and it was so inaccessible, I ended up dropping out. On 3/20/14, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I've done distance learning for both my masters in theology, and my > doctorate as well. So it is doible. RJ Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mikayla Gephart" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes > > >> Hi, >> I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you >> want, you >> >> can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? >> Mikayla >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >> ur%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gm > ail.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: http://facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Skype: jj.duran13 Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From mikgephart at icloud.com Thu Mar 20 19:10:04 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:10:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes In-Reply-To: <049901cf446f$b5e954a0$21bbfde0$@gmail.com> References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> <049901cf446f$b5e954a0$21bbfde0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6796637F-2556-451B-A6D0-67F5037F1A53@icloud.com> I mean for school. Sent from my iPad On Mar 20, 2014, at 3:07 PM, justin williams wrote: > Hadley is good; I'm sure there are others, but I wouldn't no of them. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of johnnie Jean > duran > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Online classes > > They have been awful for me. I had to take a spanish 2 course online, and it > was so inaccessible, I ended up dropping out. > > On 3/20/14, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> I've done distance learning for both my masters in theology, and my >> doctorate as well. So it is doible. RJ Sandefur >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mikayla Gephart" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes >> >> >>> Hi, >>> I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you >>> want, you >>> >>> can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? >>> Mikayla >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >>> ur%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gm >> ail.com >> > > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United > States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), > The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro > Chapter of the NFB. > Facebook: http://facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Skype: jj.duran13 > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 > Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From amakkawy at uncc.edu Thu Mar 20 19:10:33 2014 From: amakkawy at uncc.edu (Makkawy, Amin) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 19:10:33 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes In-Reply-To: References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> Message-ID: <8b4aaefded014ba6a8156bfaae47c1bd@BL2PR03MB228.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> Mikayla, I have taken a college level food science class online, and my experience was fantastic. The book was also online, and with no accommodations it was accessible. The most important thing is to be able to get your hands on the software platforms/portals used to facilitate the online class before the start of the semester/quarter/whatever so you can be familiar/see if/how it will work out for you. Respect, Amin -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of johnnie Jean duran Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Online classes They have been awful for me. I had to take a spanish 2 course online, and it was so inaccessible, I ended up dropping out. On 3/20/14, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I've done distance learning for both my masters in theology, and my > doctorate as well. So it is doible. RJ Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mikayla Gephart" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes > > >> Hi, >> I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you >> want, you >> >> can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? >> Mikayla >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/ >> listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RB >> aK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR3 >> 6CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a >> 22b1d941dd58e60fae75012c To unsubscribe, change your list options or >> get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/ >> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%2540gmail.com&k=rPDsRmU >> 4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfM >> Y%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=a8ed6cc >> 319e75f52aff17c8791cd89aa508074ab06fcfa19309527b85069700c >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/l > istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK > 3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CE > iVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a22b1 > d941dd58e60fae75012c To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account info for > nabs-l: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/o > ptions/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%2540gmail.com&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tM > YRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m > =FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=49c3842c5a1d5a658 > e410ece42ecf6c30fb2da01c845e639d2777845a0214978 > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://facebook.com/johnniejean.duran&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=2b263ba7d0ea909872cbc1643da54d3ba867af565ae8ee9b3ee63d1c5c22d194 Skype: jj.duran13 Twitter: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=0bd5b242c956b48f4d9818ebb8e92973e4186cd3894c8a51c398cfc026a8462d Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a22b1d941dd58e60fae75012c To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amakkawy%2540uncc.edu&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=e70cdcd99c1fff9eb238a8ea30a6ec933dc994bb0f00c601cc97b01ce197a2d1 From rbacchus228 at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 19:20:23 2014 From: rbacchus228 at gmail.com (Roanna Baccchus) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:20:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes Message-ID: <532b3f8b.894d320a.52fe.ffffad6c@mx.google.com> Hi Mikayla I have taken several online classes. They have all been accessible for me. From trillian551 at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 19:55:29 2014 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:55:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Browsing on Mac Message-ID: Hi all, I am wondering if there is a key command to switch between opened tabs when using Safari on a Mac. Right now to switch between pages, I've been going back to the top of the page, stop interacting with the page, and select it from the list of opened webpages, but this is extremely cumbersome. Second, is there any way to make sure that when you navigate back to an opened webpage, the, you can return to the text where you left off. I find that every time I navigate away from a webpage, I have to find my spot again, since Voiceover goes back to the top. Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks. -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." -- Maya Angelou From ALewis at nfb.org Thu Mar 20 19:58:55 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 19:58:55 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Imagination Fund Campaign Tip Message-ID: The following Imagination Fund message was sent via email by Melissa Riccobono, NFBMD president to motivate our Maryland members to actively participate in the Imagination Fund Campaign. Uncle Whozit encourages all of our affiliate leaders to do the same. . Join Team NFBMD and Become an Imaginator!: As you may have heard in the Presidential Release, Uncle Whozit is counting on you! The National Federation of the Blind has a goal to raise $300000 for the Imagination Fund by May 31, 2014. The Imagination Fund not only supports NFB Jernigan Institute programs, it also helps fund special programs and projects in state affiliates. Raising money for the Imagination Fund means finding other peoples' money! If you want to support the NFB personally, please consider joining the PAC Plan (More about the PAC Plan later in these messages.) If you want to be an Imaginator and raise money for the Imagination Fund as part of Team NFBMD, , please reach out to your family, friends, business contacts, etc. and tell them why the National Federation of the Blind is important to you. Please ask them for a donation. . How do they donate? People can make a donation to Team NFBMD by visiting https://app.mobilecause.com/public/social/9716 As a member of Team NFBMD, please feel free to visit this page yourself and use the links provided to ask for donations from your Facebook friends and Twitter followers. You can also send a customized email to your contacts directly from this page and encourage them to donate. If you are asking someone for a donation in person, you can have him or her text the word Maryland to 71777. Or, donors can send a check made out to NFB with Imagination Fund Maryland in the memo line to 200 East Wells St.; Baltimore, MD 21230. The NFBMD has a goal to raise $7500 in commemoration of the upcoming 75th anniversary of the national Federation of the Blind. This seems like a large number, but I know we will be able to achieve this goal if we all participate as one team and reach out to those we know to ask them for their help. We are counting on you; we still have a long way to go to reach our goal. . If you would like to have the NFB Jernigan Institute create a personal Imaginator page for you, please send an email to imaginationfund at nfb.org Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Deputy Executive Director National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 659-5129 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org Twitter: @AnilLife The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture. From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 20:09:58 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan Silveira) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:09:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Browsing on Mac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C4B039F-F73D-4519-9665-DF1866F27820@gmail.com> Hi Mary, I don’t think there is a command to switch between tabs, but I will look further. You may be able to custom assign one. As far as returning to the spot where you left off, I’m reasonably certain you cannot do that, but again, I will look further. I know it’s cumbersome, but I am pretty sure that, at this point, what you’re doing is the best thing. Ryan L. Silveira Corresponding Secretary Ohio Association of Blind Students A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it Means to be Blind” (203) 731-7580 ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com On Mar 20, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Hi all, > I am wondering if there is a key command to switch between opened tabs > when using Safari on a Mac. Right now to switch between pages, I've > been going back to the top of the page, stop interacting with the > page, and select it from the list of opened webpages, but this is > extremely cumbersome. Second, is there any way to make sure that when > you navigate back to an opened webpage, the, you can return to the > text where you left off. I find that every time I navigate away from a > webpage, I have to find my spot again, since Voiceover goes back to > the top. Any input would be greatly appreciated! > Thanks. > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > -- > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From matt.dierckens at me.com Thu Mar 20 20:11:50 2014 From: matt.dierckens at me.com (Matthew Dierckens) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:11:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Browsing on Mac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <333BCF19-B4F0-4AC0-9284-B7D0ACB9651E@me.com> Hello. Good question, I hope that you find this answer helpful. Yes, there is a keystroke for switching between tabs. Press control plus tab to switch between tabs. Regarding your second question, that's a bit of a hit and miss. Sometimes VO doesn't focus on the text where you last left off, sometimes you do. If you have any other questions about mac, please don't hesitate to ask. Hope this helped. Matthew Dierckens Macintosh Trainer Blind Access Training www.blindaccesstraining.com 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 On Mar 20, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Hi all, > I am wondering if there is a key command to switch between opened tabs > when using Safari on a Mac. Right now to switch between pages, I've > been going back to the top of the page, stop interacting with the > page, and select it from the list of opened webpages, but this is > extremely cumbersome. Second, is there any way to make sure that when > you navigate back to an opened webpage, the, you can return to the > text where you left off. I find that every time I navigate away from a > webpage, I have to find my spot again, since Voiceover goes back to > the top. Any input would be greatly appreciated! > Thanks. > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > -- > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Thu Mar 20 21:16:19 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:16:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes In-Reply-To: <8b4aaefded014ba6a8156bfaae47c1bd@BL2PR03MB228.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> <8b4aaefded014ba6a8156bfaae47c1bd@BL2PR03MB228.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <00ea01cf4481$a32f74e0$e98e5ea0$@mediacombb.net> I am taking courses online. And I have done so in the past. While some platforms are easier than others, you should be able to do it just fine. I can't say never; however, I'm not sure I would do anything different from here on out. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Makkawy, Amin Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:11 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Online classes Mikayla, I have taken a college level food science class online, and my experience was fantastic. The book was also online, and with no accommodations it was accessible. The most important thing is to be able to get your hands on the software platforms/portals used to facilitate the online class before the start of the semester/quarter/whatever so you can be familiar/see if/how it will work out for you. Respect, Amin -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of johnnie Jean duran Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Online classes They have been awful for me. I had to take a spanish 2 course online, and it was so inaccessible, I ended up dropping out. On 3/20/14, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I've done distance learning for both my masters in theology, and my > doctorate as well. So it is doible. RJ Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mikayla Gephart" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes > > >> Hi, >> I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you >> want, you >> >> can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? >> Mikayla >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/ >> listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RB >> aK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR3 >> 6CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a >> 22b1d941dd58e60fae75012c To unsubscribe, change your list options or >> get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/ >> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%2540gmail.com&k=rPDsRmU >> 4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfM >> Y%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=a8ed6cc >> 319e75f52aff17c8791cd89aa508074ab06fcfa19309527b85069700c >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/l > istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK > 3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CE > iVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a22b1 > d941dd58e60fae75012c To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account info for > nabs-l: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/o > ptions/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%2540gmail.com&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tM > YRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m > =FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=49c3842c5a1d5a658 > e410ece42ecf6c30fb2da01c845e639d2777845a0214978 > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://facebook.com/johnniejean.d uran&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloX VCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=2b263ba 7d0ea909872cbc1643da54d3ba867af565ae8ee9b3ee63d1c5c22d194 Skype: jj.duran13 Twitter: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 &k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTo dfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=0bd5b242c95 6b48f4d9818ebb8e92973e4186cd3894c8a51c398cfc026a8462d Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinf o/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQ SedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI% 3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a22b1d941dd58e60fae75012c To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options /nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amakkawy%2540uncc.edu&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r =aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR3 6CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=e70cdcd99c1fff9eb238a8ea30a6ec933dc994bb0f00c60 1cc97b01ce197a2d1 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n et From ALewis at nfb.org Fri Mar 21 01:45:14 2014 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 01:45:14 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Imaginator Social Giving Process Message-ID: NFB Imaginators: As referenced on the call, attached and below is a description of the Imaginator Social Giving Process. It primarily describes the Social Giving tool, but also provides information about how to ensure that paper check donations are attributed to your Imagination Fund campaign. Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Imaginator Social Giving Process To text in a donation: How to Ask Your Supporters to Donate Ask your supporters to text your keyword to 71777 to either view your campaign's progress or to make a debit or credit card donation to your campaign. Donation Process from Supporter's Point of View Once your supporter has sent the text message, a reply text message will be sent stating, "NFB needs help, please donate here: [link to your campaign's personal page] Msg&Data Rate May Apply. Info? Visit igfn.org/t Reply HELP for help, STOP to cancel." The supporter will then select the first link in the reply text message, which will take him/her directly to your personal fundraising page. Or, to donate via the Web link, simply select the link: In either case, the supporter is then taken to your personal fundraising page. Your fundraising page contains a personal photo, a call to action, and organization information, as well as a progress thermometer with your goal, campaign duration, and amount donated thus far. On this page, the supporter can either make a donation and/or share your page via Facebook, Twitter, and e-mail. When you share your page via this media, default content is displayed; however, each supporter can customize the text before sharing the page with followers. Make a Donation A supporter will need to fill in an e-mail address, first name, last name, address, city, state, Zip Code, and credit card information. By default, a donation amount of $25 will appear; this amount can be edited. Make a Donation via Check If a supporter chooses, a check on your behalf may be submitted. Although check donations are not visible on your social giving page, we will still add this amount to your fundraising total. As such, it is important that you ask the supporter to write your keyword in the memo portion of the check so that we can associate it with your total amount raised. Learning of New Donations After donations are submitted you will receive a weekly e-mail with donor's names and amounts so that you can acknowledge the donations personally. Outbound Call: If a supporter texts your keyword to 71777 and does not fulfill the donation at that time, a call will be made on behalf of the NFB, asking the supporter to complete the donation. Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Deputy Executive Director National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 659-5129 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org Twitter: @AnilLife The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can have the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back. To make a donation to the National Federation of the Blind Imagination Fund campaign, please visit www.nfb.org/ImaginingOurFuture. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Imaginator Social Giving Process.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 13751 bytes Desc: Imaginator Social Giving Process.docx URL: From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 12:25:43 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:25:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes In-Reply-To: <00ea01cf4481$a32f74e0$e98e5ea0$@mediacombb.net> References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> <8b4aaefded014ba6a8156bfaae47c1bd@BL2PR03MB228.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <00ea01cf4481$a32f74e0$e98e5ea0$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: Hello, In my experiences, the college level online classes tend to be a little better in accessibility than the ones for high school. I have only had one bad experience with online course material while in college, and it was with a community college I tried to take classes at over the summer, not my own university. I've used online course sites for a number of my claasses, which had online books, quizzes, and forums or things of that nature, and they've all worked out for me. I actually just completed a 5 week communications course in this way. :) Good luck, and I hope this helps. On 3/20/14, Loren Wakefield wrote: > I am taking courses online. And I have done so in the past. While some > platforms are easier than others, you should be able to do it just fine. I > can't say never; however, I'm not sure I would do anything different from > here on out. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Makkawy, Amin > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:11 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Online classes > > Mikayla, > > I have taken a college level food science class online, and my experience > was fantastic. The book was also online, and with no accommodations it was > accessible. The most important thing is to be able to get your hands on the > software platforms/portals used to facilitate the online class before the > start of the semester/quarter/whatever so you can be familiar/see if/how it > will work out for you. > > Respect, > > Amin > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of johnnie Jean > duran > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Online classes > > They have been awful for me. I had to take a spanish 2 course online, and > it > was so inaccessible, I ended up dropping out. > > On 3/20/14, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> I've done distance learning for both my masters in theology, and my >> doctorate as well. So it is doible. RJ Sandefur >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mikayla Gephart" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes >> >> >>> Hi, >>> I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you >>> want, you >>> >>> can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? >>> Mikayla >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/ >>> listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RB >>> aK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR3 >>> 6CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a >>> 22b1d941dd58e60fae75012c To unsubscribe, change your list options or >>> get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/ >>> options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%2540gmail.com&k=rPDsRmU >>> 4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfM >>> Y%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=a8ed6cc >>> 319e75f52aff17c8791cd89aa508074ab06fcfa19309527b85069700c >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/l >> istinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK >> 3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CE >> iVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a22b1 >> d941dd58e60fae75012c To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account info for >> nabs-l: >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/o >> ptions/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%2540gmail.com&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tM >> YRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m >> =FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=49c3842c5a1d5a658 >> e410ece42ecf6c30fb2da01c845e639d2777845a0214978 >> > > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United > States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), > The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro > Chapter of the NFB. > Facebook: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://facebook.com/johnniejean.d > uran&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloX > VCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=2b263ba > 7d0ea909872cbc1643da54d3ba867af565ae8ee9b3ee63d1c5c22d194 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Twitter: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 > &k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTo > dfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=0bd5b242c95 > 6b48f4d9818ebb8e92973e4186cd3894c8a51c398cfc026a8462d > Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinf > o/nabs-l_nfbnet.org&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r=aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQ > SedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR36CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI% > 3D%0A&s=84839744bdca6290251323c0e73c5c4d71be7c6a22b1d941dd58e60fae75012c > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options > /nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amakkawy%2540uncc.edu&k=rPDsRmU4QOB12tMYRtqLtA%3D%3D%0A&r > =aOU1RBaK3WcwkdZIQDCQSedszzYOa1FmloXVCTodfMY%3D%0A&m=FVopJzaIJYQXuFZoO1fVaR3 > 6CEiVtH78HYgq8nWeuPI%3D%0A&s=e70cdcd99c1fff9eb238a8ea30a6ec933dc994bb0f00c60 > 1cc97b01ce197a2d1 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 17:47:04 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 13:47:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Problem with Email Client Message-ID: <2F2A9369-5DE7-42CF-9D9C-4C2CCFFEB95B@gmail.com> Hi guys, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I use Windows Live Mail, which is actually an email client, in order to check myGmail email address and my Hotmail email address since they are in there. However, when I want to open my Windows live mail, is not opening at all! Do any of you use an emil client or windows Live Mail emil client in order to chec your emails? I'm just wondering, since I use windows live mail on my computer a lot, since I don't use webbase email, due to the fact that is very difficult. I will really appreciate it a lot, if you could help me with this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent from my iPhone From johnniejduran at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 17:50:35 2014 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:50:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Problem with Email Client In-Reply-To: <2F2A9369-5DE7-42CF-9D9C-4C2CCFFEB95B@gmail.com> References: <2F2A9369-5DE7-42CF-9D9C-4C2CCFFEB95B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Helga, I would recommend reinstalling the program, because it seems as if it's corrupted. I use microsoft outlook express, and I've had to do this twice. Good Luck! JJ Sent from my iPhone On 3/21/14, Helga Schreiber wrote: > > > Hi guys, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I > use Windows Live Mail, which is actually an email client, in order to check > myGmail email address and my Hotmail email address since they are in there. > However, when I want to open my Windows live mail, is not opening at all! Do > any of you use an emil client or windows Live Mail emil client in order to > chec your emails? I'm just wondering, since I use windows live mail on my > computer a lot, since I don't use webbase email, due to the fact that is > very difficult. I will really appreciate it a lot, if you could help me with > this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent > from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Lakewood, Colorado, United States Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: http://facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Skype: jj.duran13 Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Mar 21 19:02:11 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 14:02:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Problem with Email Client In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Helga, Maybe you already know this, but when you first open Windows Live Mail, it usually tries to get all of your mail. It also does some other checking as well. When it does this, it sometimes seems to lock out screen readers. This can make it seem that nothing is happening. Be sure you wait a couple of minutes before you decide to give up. Also, if you open Windows Live Mail from the start menu, be careful to open the correct program because there are likely several entries that start with "Windows Live." There have been times when I have closed Windows Live and then started it again to get it to start up, but this doesn't happen often. I have used Windows Live for a while now, although it is not my main mail program, but I have not had to reinstall it. Obviously, reinstalling it to see if the problem is corrected doesn't hurt and it might even help, but it could be you have something else happening. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On 3/21/14, Helga Schreiber wrote: >> >> >> Hi guys, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I >> use Windows Live Mail, which is actually an email client, in order to check >> myGmail email address and my Hotmail email address since they are in there. >> However, when I want to open my Windows live mail, is not opening at all! Do >> any of you use an emil client or windows Live Mail emil client in order to >> chec your emails? I'm just wondering, since I use windows live mail on my >> computer a lot, since I don't use webbase email, due to the fact that is >> very difficult. I will really appreciate it a lot, if you could help me with >> this. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent >> from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >> >-- >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >8th Grade Student >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >Lakewood, Colorado, United States >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado (NFBCO), >The Colorado Association Of Blind Students (CABS), and the North Metro >Chapter of the NFB. >Facebook: http://facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >Skype: jj.duran13 >Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/jj_duran14 >Voicemail: (303) 552-9683 (Voicemail only) >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 21:14:37 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 17:14:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Problem with Mail Client Fix Message-ID: <88D9D352F2E14A9A97AA28F665695AE3@Helga> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to inform you that my Email Client issue that I was having is fix now! Actually, when my brother who is sighted came home from school or something, I ask him if he could help me with this issue, and he actually did. What he do was that he restarted my laptop computer by clicking on the restart button with the mouse. and after my computer restarted, I actually press alt ctrl L in order to start my Windows Live Mail and for some reason it work! I really didn’t know that I needed to do a restart to my computer in order to fix this issue. The only thing I did was turn off my computer, and I did that 4 times, but it didn’t work! at all. However, now it works well! Thanks so much guys for helping me and also giving me some suggestions in how can I fix this problem. I really appreciate it a lot! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 21 21:33:11 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 17:33:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes In-Reply-To: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> Message-ID: Mikayla, Online experiences will vary. However, from what I've seen on this list, we tend to run into accessibility challenges. I took an online course in editting; also a hybrid class where half is online and half in class. My school uses blackboard. I found blackboard is not fully accessible. I cannot submit assignments online. Also, when reading quizzes or tests, when you press r for radio button, jaws reads the whole question, not just your choice of answer. In short, it also depends on your learning style. me, I really prefer the class discussions and interaction I have in class. I would recommend sticking with in class courses if possible. Do not take visual classes online like math and science; you need the professor's help and will likely not get the 1:1 help you need online. I bvelieve the other learning platform, Desire to learn, is more screen reaeer friendly. So it depends on your online platform they use. You should be able to add and drop classes first week. So, if your class is not very accessible, drop it Fast. Do not waste your time and money on an inaccessible course. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mikayla Gephart Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes Hi, I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you want, you can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? Mikayla Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From gpaikens at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 01:45:02 2014 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 21:45:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Internet Browsing on Mac In-Reply-To: <333BCF19-B4F0-4AC0-9284-B7D0ACB9651E@me.com> References: <333BCF19-B4F0-4AC0-9284-B7D0ACB9651E@me.com> Message-ID: <3D475A09-870B-4038-9877-AE9725B83AD1@gmail.com> To add to Matthew’s post, CMD+` will switch between open windows in Safari or any program. I find that as I browse, sometimes I end up with multiple windows with multiple tabs. On Mar 20, 2014, at 4:11 PM, Matthew Dierckens wrote: > Hello. > Good question, I hope that you find this answer helpful. > Yes, there is a keystroke for switching between tabs. > Press control plus tab to switch between tabs. > Regarding your second question, that's a bit of a hit and miss. Sometimes VO doesn't focus on the text where you last left off, sometimes you do. > If you have any other questions about mac, please don't hesitate to ask. > Hope this helped. > > Matthew Dierckens > Macintosh Trainer > Blind Access Training > www.blindaccesstraining.com > 1-877-774-7670 ext. 4 > > > > > On Mar 20, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Mary Fernandez wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I am wondering if there is a key command to switch between opened tabs >> when using Safari on a Mac. Right now to switch between pages, I've >> been going back to the top of the page, stop interacting with the >> page, and select it from the list of opened webpages, but this is >> extremely cumbersome. Second, is there any way to make sure that when >> you navigate back to an opened webpage, the, you can return to the >> text where you left off. I find that every time I navigate away from a >> webpage, I have to find my spot again, since Voiceover goes back to >> the top. Any input would be greatly appreciated! >> Thanks. >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >> feel." >> -- >> Maya Angelou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/matt.dierckens%40me.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 02:00:39 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 22:00:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Interview for the NFB Student Scholarship Message-ID: Hi all, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to inform you that today in the morning I actually receive an email from Ms. Johnnie Stalon, who is actually Board member of the National Federation of the Blind where she tells me that she would like to interview me. However, I actually have a problem, she ask me in the email that she would like to see my essay before the interview, but I’m actually didn’t finish it yet, I’m actually still working on it. Just to let you know, for my essay I actually wrote 1,071 words, and as you know I need to have 700 words on it. But I’m going to work on reducing the words, but I’m actually doing another assignment for school right now, I just wanted to ask you, what do you think I should do regarding this? I was actually thinking in submiting my essay with my application on Monday, and after I do that, I’m thinking in writing her an email with my attach essay in order for her to se it. I would like to hear your opinions regarding this since you probably experience this before. I will really appreciate it, if you could help me with this and give me some suggestions regarding this. Thanks so much and God bless! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sandersj6 at att.net Sat Mar 22 02:19:04 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 22:19:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Message-ID: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Hi all, I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. Why is this required? I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders From louvins at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 05:08:20 2014 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 00:08:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Hi, this is how I received some of my textbooks in the beginning. I'm not sure why this is required, but it is. Also, there is learning ally which I did get some of my textbooks from. Also, bookshare is a pretty good source for textbooks, and I think the website is www.coursesmart.com. Good luck. On 3/21/14, John Sanders wrote: > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Mar 22 05:31:00 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 22:31:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Because they cannot give you books for free. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:19 PM, John Sanders wrote: > Hi all, > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Sat Mar 22 12:59:45 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 07:59:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give you it for free? Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi all, I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. Why is this required? I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 14:16:42 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:16:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" wrote: > > Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give you it for free? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From filerime at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 14:54:43 2014 From: filerime at gmail.com (Elif Emir) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:54:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Kindle Application Message-ID: Hi all, I did set up the kindle application on my Microsoft computer, and then downloaded a book from Amazon; however, I can't read it with my jaws. Is the kindle application only accessible on Apple devices? Is there a way that I can access my kindle book on my Microsoft Windows computer? Thanks From sandersj6 at att.net Sat Mar 22 15:10:26 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 11:10:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: Hi, I'm already in classes that require a lot of reading and writing. And I need those books. I've contacted the office of disability of supported services and they said that since I have started class on the first day that they can't get a reader or some one to help me write that soon. I don't mind using jaws to read regular books. but, when it gets to college reading, that's when it becomes a problem. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:59 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give you it for free? Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi all, I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. Why is this required? I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Mar 22 15:16:29 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 08:16:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: We are required to buy books just like everybody else. If the book does not already come electronic which you can buy then we are required to by a print version to have scanned to electronic. If we don't pay for a book it is no different than stealing it. On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 7:16 AM, Helga Schreiber < helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is > not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us > to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are > going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying > the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid > always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us > since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they > should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other > disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can > give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope > to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" > wrote: > > > > Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give > you it for free? > > > > Loren > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John > Sanders > > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > > > Hi all, > > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College > and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want > to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > > Why is this required? > > I hope to hear from you soon. > > Sincerely, > > John Sanders > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Sat Mar 22 15:53:15 2014 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:53:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class with lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to catch up. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" wrote: > > Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give you it for free? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Mar 22 16:17:18 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 09:17:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: That of course depends on the university. We have Pell grants available at least two weeks before class starts. My DRC turns around a scanned book in 3 days but I got to a very large university. I would think they should at least be able to get the first chapters to students quickly. We also were able to request books early but they would not give them to us until we showed proof of purchase. So I requested books a couple months before the semester started. That may have changed though because now we have to not only show proof but also provide the book which they unbind and scann On Saturday, March 22, 2014, Loren Wakefield wrote: > It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take > several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class with > lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to > catch up. > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] On Behalf > Of Helga Schreiber > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is > not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us > to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are > going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying > the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid > always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us > since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they > should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other > disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can > give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope > to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" > > wrote: > > > > Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give > you it for free? > > > > Loren > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org ] On > Behalf Of John Sanders > > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > > > Hi all, > > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College > and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want > to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > > Why is this required? > > I hope to hear from you soon. > > Sincerely, > > John Sanders > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From sandersj6 at att.net Sat Mar 22 17:11:54 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 13:11:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> Message-ID: <1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> Hi, What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks long. With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me to get caught back up with the rest of the class. It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen again. The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not providing any accomidations at all. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class with lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to catch up. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" > wrote: > > Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give you > it for free? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Mar 22 17:32:21 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:32:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> <1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Have you checked with the publishers to see if the books are already in electronic format? On you on VR, I have known students who have had readers paid for through VR. Are you saying they claim that Michigan State provides no accommodations? I have been on their website and they do provide etext (as long as it is not already available from another source), Braille ( they prefer to do texts for use with refreshable but will do paper braille books, note takers in class etc On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks long. > With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me to > get caught back up with the rest of the class. > It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported > services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. > This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen > again. > The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my > major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not providing > any accomidations at all. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take > several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class with > lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to > catch up. > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga > Schreiber > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is > not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us > to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are > going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying > the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid > always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us > since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they > should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other > disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can > give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope > to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" >> wrote: >> >> Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give >> you it for free? >> >> Loren >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> Hi all, >> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and >> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >> Why is this required? >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> theweird1%40mediacombb.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ > theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 17:52:28 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 13:52:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Kindle Application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02FD3BC9-AC7A-400C-9027-C4A60123C509@gmail.com> Unfortunately, the Kindle app is only accessible on iOS devices at this time. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Elif Emir wrote: > > Hi all, > I did set up the kindle application on my Microsoft computer, and then > downloaded a book from Amazon; however, I can't read it with my jaws. > Is the kindle application only accessible on Apple devices? > Is there a way that I can access my kindle book on my Microsoft > Windows computer? > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From sandersj6 at att.net Sat Mar 22 18:36:53 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 14:36:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC><006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net><00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net><1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Hi, I'm not sure who the publishers are on the reading 150 and study strategies for success. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Have you checked with the publishers to see if the books are already in electronic format? On you on VR, I have known students who have had readers paid for through VR. Are you saying they claim that Michigan State provides no accommodations? I have been on their website and they do provide etext (as long as it is not already available from another source), Braille ( they prefer to do texts for use with refreshable but will do paper braille books, note takers in class etc On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks > long. > With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me to > get caught back up with the rest of the class. > It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported > services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. > This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen > again. > The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my > major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not providing > any accomidations at all. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take > several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class > with > lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to > catch up. > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga > Schreiber > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is > not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us > to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are > going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying > the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid > always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us > since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they > should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other > disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can > give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! > Hope > to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" >> wrote: >> >> Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give >> you it for free? >> >> Loren >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> Hi all, >> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and >> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >> Why is this required? >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> theweird1%40mediacombb.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ > theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Mar 22 18:44:08 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 11:44:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> <1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: The bookstore should be able to provide you all of that information. they should also be able to tell you if they sell the electronic version. If you have title and author you can google the book and get publisher info. On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:36 AM, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > I'm not sure who the publishers are on the reading 150 and study > strategies for success. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Have you checked with the publishers to see if the books are already in > electronic format? On you on VR, I have known students who have had readers > paid for through VR. > > Are you saying they claim that Michigan State provides no accommodations? I > have been on their website and they do provide etext (as long as it is not > already available from another source), Braille ( they prefer to do texts > for use with refreshable but will do paper braille books, note takers in > class etc > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, John Sanders wrote: > > Hi, >> What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks >> long. >> With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me to >> get caught back up with the rest of the class. >> It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported >> services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. >> This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen >> again. >> The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my >> major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not providing >> any accomidations at all. >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take >> several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class >> with >> lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to >> catch up. >> >> Loren >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >> Schreiber >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is >> not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us >> to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are >> going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying >> the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid >> always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us >> since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they >> should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other >> disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can >> give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! >> Hope >> to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" > > >> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give >>> you it for free? >>> >>> Loren >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John >>> Sanders >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and >>> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >>> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >>> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >>> Why is this required? >>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>> Sincerely, >>> John Sanders >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> theweird1%40mediacombb.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> theweird1%40mediacombb.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 19:48:14 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:48:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes In-Reply-To: References: <7EFE9B9F-1FBF-4CD8-A651-6C17D1ED8F27@icloud.com> Message-ID: Hi Michaela, Ashley does make some very good points. While I have generally had very positive experiences with hybrid and totally online courses, I would never sign up for one in math or science subjects. All the courses I've used online platforms with have been in fields like communications, psychology, etc. Course management sites will varry in accessibility. I've heard some blackboard users say it's really inaccessible, while others say it is very jaws-friendly. I know my school has an E-learning department of IT, which is responsible for fixing accessibility issues, so I don't think it depends on the platform you're using so much as it does the level of commitment your school has to making learning materials accessible. My college uses a version of Sakai, and although I have run into bugs, I've been able to work with the E-learning department to have them all fixed. They actually have hired me to beta test changes they make, and so it has turned out to be a very positive partnership. I would start by asking questions of the people in the disabilities office. They can give you a run don of how committed the school is to accessibility. Are there people in IT who are assigned to troubleshoot these kinds of problems? Would they be willing to work with you to make sure assignments are accessible? Are they available to answer questions your professors might have? Etc. Hope this helps. On 3/21/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Mikayla, > > Online experiences will vary. However, from what I've seen on this list, we > > tend to run into accessibility challenges. > I took an online course in editting; also a hybrid class where half is > online and half in class. > > My school uses blackboard. I found blackboard is not fully accessible. I > cannot submit assignments online. Also, when reading quizzes or tests, when > > you press r for radio button, jaws reads the whole question, not just your > choice of answer. > > In short, it also depends on your learning style. me, I really prefer the > class discussions and interaction I have in class. > I would recommend sticking with in class courses if possible. Do not take > visual classes online like math and science; you need the professor's help > and will likely not get the 1:1 help you need online. > > I bvelieve the other learning platform, Desire to learn, is more screen > reaeer friendly. So it depends on your online platform they use. > > You should be able to add and drop classes first week. So, if your class is > > not very accessible, drop it Fast. Do not waste your time and money on an > inaccessible course. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Mikayla Gephart > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:08 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Online classes > > Hi, > I will be going to a school where if they don't have a class you want, you > can take it online. What have been your experiences with this? > Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 20:04:23 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:04:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! Message-ID: Hello all, The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in the CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, plan for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews figured out. Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. Code 7869673. Hope to see you all there! -- Kaiti From pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 20:10:54 2014 From: pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 13:10:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. Message-ID: <532dee53.631d440a.772e.ffff86a7@mx.google.com> Hey guys, So, I know have the "An Introduction to reading braille music" by Richard Tesh. I can read a little music now, but if someone can help me get better. I can read all the eighth notes and the rest. A whole note c. And the time signatures. From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 20:15:40 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:15:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> <1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Hi, Why we can't just have books given to us for free: Getting text, or otherwise accessible versions of books is an accomodation. However, that does not excuse us from not buying the book like everyone else. Just be happy that the university isn't charging you for converting the book, and you're paying a fair price rather than paying double for the same thing (a college in my area is notorious for doing this, even though it's technically illegal). Also, if the university can't get book files from the publisher, they then will need your copy to rip it apart and scan it. Most universities have online bookstores, so what I do is just send the recipt of my order that is emailed to me to the disability services inbox, and that's proof enough for them. Don't forget, even though you buy these print books and never use them, you can still sell them back and regain some of your money. I do this every semester, and usually I get more back than most people do because my books are still in the rapping, and all the bookstore workers have to do is restock them. Bookshare is a great source for textbooks, and so is Bard/NLS. I personally hate Reading Ally because I support braille over readers and don't use readers for anything myself, but I know it works for other people. Best practices for getting books and other accomodations in the future: Let the DS office know what your needs are as soon as you schedule your classes. Email your professors and see if they would like to meet in-person or over the phone to discuss course materials. Turn in book lists and recipts as soon as you have them. If there is an online platform for the course, see if you can get someone in IT to check out the accessibility ahead of time. These things are even more important if you have accelerated courses, modules, or courses over the summer or MayMester schedules. Pay attention to deadlines regarding when you can drop classes without penalty, because if the accessibility of a class is an issue for you you need to try to switch into another section with different requirements so you can work around the issue, or you need to switch into a new course entirely and take that semester to work out the kinks before signing up again. On 3/22/14, Suzanne Germano wrote: > The bookstore should be able to provide you all of that information. they > should also be able to tell you if they sell the electronic version. If you > have title and author you can google the book and get publisher info. > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:36 AM, John Sanders wrote: > >> Hi, >> I'm not sure who the publishers are on the reading 150 and study >> strategies for success. >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> Have you checked with the publishers to see if the books are already in >> electronic format? On you on VR, I have known students who have had >> readers >> paid for through VR. >> >> Are you saying they claim that Michigan State provides no accommodations? >> I >> have been on their website and they do provide etext (as long as it is >> not >> already available from another source), Braille ( they prefer to do texts >> for use with refreshable but will do paper braille books, note takers in >> class etc >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, John Sanders wrote: >> >> Hi, >>> What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks >>> long. >>> With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me to >>> get caught back up with the rest of the class. >>> It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported >>> services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. >>> This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen >>> again. >>> The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my >>> major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not >>> providing >>> any accomidations at all. >>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>> Sincerely, >>> John Sanders >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield >>> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>> >>> It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take >>> several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class >>> with >>> lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying >>> to >>> catch up. >>> >>> Loren >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >>> Schreiber >>> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>> >>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is >>> not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for >>> us >>> to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are >>> going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying >>> the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial >>> Aid >>> always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us >>> since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think >>> they >>> should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other >>> disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can >>> give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! >>> Hope >>> to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" >>> >> > >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give >>>> you it for free? >>>> >>>> Loren >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John >>>> Sanders >>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College >>>> and >>>> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want >>>> to >>>> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, >>>> I >>>> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >>>> Why is this required? >>>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>>> Sincerely, >>>> John Sanders >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> theweird1%40mediacombb.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> theweird1%40mediacombb.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From louvins at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 20:38:15 2014 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:38:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net> <00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> <1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Hi to all. What've done when it comes to textbooks, is go to the bookstore at my college ahead of time and get the books I need. My VR services has given me book vouchers in the past which will help me pay for the cost of the books I need to get for classes. The main thing when it comes to getting textbooks in an accessible format, is get your books to the disability office as soon as possible so they have time to scan the books. I have also gotten money back for some of my books at the end of the semester. Also, see if you qualify for FAFSA. You can usually get help paying for your books with that, and also there are ppela grants. I've gotten those before as well. There are different options available, but you just have to do some research. On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Why we can't just have books given to us for free: Getting text, or > otherwise accessible versions of books is an accomodation. However, > that does not excuse us from not buying the book like everyone else. > Just be happy that the university isn't charging you for converting > the book, and you're paying a fair price rather than paying double for > the same thing (a college in my area is notorious for doing this, even > though it's technically illegal). Also, if the university can't get > book files from the publisher, they then will need your copy to rip it > apart and scan it. Most universities have online bookstores, so what > I do is just send the recipt of my order that is emailed to me to the > disability services inbox, and that's proof enough for them. Don't > forget, even though you buy these print books and never use them, you > can still sell them back and regain some of your money. I do this > every semester, and usually I get more back than most people do > because my books are still in the rapping, and all the bookstore > workers have to do is restock them. > > Bookshare is a great source for textbooks, and so is Bard/NLS. I > personally hate Reading Ally because I support braille over readers > and don't use readers for anything myself, but I know it works for > other people. > > Best practices for getting books and other accomodations in the > future: Let the DS office know what your needs are as soon as you > schedule your classes. Email your professors and see if they would > like to meet in-person or over the phone to discuss course materials. > Turn in book lists and recipts as soon as you have them. If there is > an online platform for the course, see if you can get someone in IT > to check out the accessibility ahead of time. These things are even > more important if you have accelerated courses, modules, or courses > over the summer or MayMester schedules. Pay attention to deadlines > regarding when you can drop classes without penalty, because if the > accessibility of a class is an issue for you you need to try to switch > into another section with different requirements so you can work > around the issue, or you need to switch into a new course entirely and > take that semester to work out the kinks before signing up again. > > On 3/22/14, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> The bookstore should be able to provide you all of that information. they >> should also be able to tell you if they sell the electronic version. If >> you >> have title and author you can google the book and get publisher info. >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:36 AM, John Sanders wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I'm not sure who the publishers are on the reading 150 and study >>> strategies for success. >>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>> Sincerely, >>> John Sanders >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano >>> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>> >>> Have you checked with the publishers to see if the books are already in >>> electronic format? On you on VR, I have known students who have had >>> readers >>> paid for through VR. >>> >>> Are you saying they claim that Michigan State provides no >>> accommodations? >>> I >>> have been on their website and they do provide etext (as long as it is >>> not >>> already available from another source), Braille ( they prefer to do >>> texts >>> for use with refreshable but will do paper braille books, note takers in >>> class etc >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:11 AM, John Sanders >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>>> What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks >>>> long. >>>> With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me >>>> to >>>> get caught back up with the rest of the class. >>>> It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported >>>> services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. >>>> This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen >>>> again. >>>> The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my >>>> major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not >>>> providing >>>> any accomidations at all. >>>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>>> Sincerely, >>>> John Sanders >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>>> >>>> It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still >>>> take >>>> several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class >>>> with >>>> lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying >>>> to >>>> catch up. >>>> >>>> Loren >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga >>>> Schreiber >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>>> >>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is >>>> not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for >>>> us >>>> to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are >>>> going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are >>>> buying >>>> the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial >>>> Aid >>>> always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us >>>> since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think >>>> they >>>> should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other >>>> disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they >>>> can >>>> give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! >>>> Hope >>>> to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give >>>>> you it for free? >>>>> >>>>> Loren >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John >>>>> Sanders >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College >>>>> and >>>>> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want >>>>> to >>>>> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, >>>>> I >>>>> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the >>>>> books. >>>>> Why is this required? >>>>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> John Sanders >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>> theweird1%40mediacombb.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>> helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> theweird1%40mediacombb.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sat Mar 22 20:47:04 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:47:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. In-Reply-To: <532dee53.631d440a.772e.ffff86a7@mx.google.com> References: <532dee53.631d440a.772e.ffff86a7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <60EBAD73-C2BB-4327-A605-8891339A8AFC@fuse.net> How do you feel we could best help you? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Hey guys, > > So, I know have the "An Introduction to reading braille music" by Richard Tesh. I can read a little music now, but if someone can help me get better. > > I can read all the eighth notes and the rest. A whole note c. And the time signatures. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 20:51:44 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 14:51:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I'm available for an interview if you would like some info about NABS from 2005-2011. I'll see how much I can remember! I'll be at convention this year too. Best, Arielle On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hello all, > > The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be > getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in the > CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, plan > for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews > figured out. > > Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. > Code 7869673. > > Hope to see you all there! > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 20:52:21 2014 From: pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 13:52:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. Message-ID: <532df80b.88cc440a.51e3.ffff9be9@mx.google.com> I'm not exactly sure, but neither one of my aids can read braille music, or have the time to help me learn, (they only come in math). So I have to learn this all on my own. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington wrote: Hey guys, So, I know have the "An Introduction to reading braille music" by Richard Tesh. I can read a little music now, but if someone can help me get better. I can read all the eighth notes and the rest. A whole note c. And the time signatures. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pianogirlforl ife7%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 22 20:53:11 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:53:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> John, Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business writing and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal studies. You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; publishers do not want to release a book without making money. You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its fair to the publishers. Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once you have given them receits. Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts to the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on bulletin boards at my school. I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you were like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. I would have used bookshare, if it were around. Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do better with human readers. This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if it poses a lot of financial hardship. However, your parents probably will pay the fee. Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting for the disability office. Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library is a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology skills are good. I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the bookstore; I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. Then I can order them with this info. Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about books. Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment on that. I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I think its from Course smart. I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for your accomodations. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi all, I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. Why is this required? I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 22 21:04:15 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:04:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net><00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net> <1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: John, I don't mean to be nosy or judgemental. But I'm wondering why you need a scribe in class. Many schools offer notetakers in class or what is often called scribes. Can you take your own notes? I don't know if you have a disability that makes it hard to write while listening. What was done in high school? For me, I always took my notes with a brailler or electronic notetaker. How about bringing something with you to class to take notes? If you have a braille notetaker this works well such as a braille Note or braille sense. You can also bring a tablet device assuming you have one with a keyboard; this might be an ipad orwindows tablet. Some students even use laptops but I never did that as it would be hard to hear jaws and the professor. I don't know why you'd neet someone to write for you; a reader I understand, but a writer, hmm. Also I'm wondering why won't the school assign a notetaker for class now? True, you did not supply your receits, but why does this affect your request for in class support? These are separate accomodations. Your textbooks are contingent on the receits. But requesting in class support is not contingent on getting your texts. This really does not make sense to me. VTW, I had some notetakers for certain classes and it was helpful. My grammar professor wrote lots of examples on the board, and yes she read aloud, but it was fast, and I liked getting to review it later; my notetaker copied down the examples; and no way I could copy it down as she read it. Same with interpersonal communication; he also wrote key outlines on the board, and my notetaker's notes were helpful. So, I'm not knocking the class support. I'm just suggesting you take your own notes if possible. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi, What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks long. With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me to get caught back up with the rest of the class. It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen again. The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not providing any accomidations at all. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class with lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to catch up. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" > wrote: > > Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give you > it for free? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 21:15:34 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:15:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Interview for the NFB Student Scholarship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Helga, The deadline is march 31 for the application and interview. This should give you enough time to cut down your essay and send it to her before the interview. If you need to have the interview very soon, you could send her the longer version of your essay and just say you will be cutting it down. I think she is just asking for your essay to get a general idea of what you will be writing about. Best of luck! Arielle On 3/21/14, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > Hi all, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to inform you that > today in the morning I actually receive an email from Ms. Johnnie Stalon, > who is actually Board member of the National Federation of the Blind where > she tells me that she would like to interview me. However, I actually have a > problem, she ask me in the email that she would like to see my essay before > the interview, but I'm actually didn't finish it yet, I'm actually still > working on it. Just to let you know, for my essay I actually wrote 1,071 > words, and as you know I need to have 700 words on it. But I'm going to work > on reducing the words, but I'm actually doing another assignment for school > right now, I just wanted to ask you, what do you think I should do regarding > this? I was actually thinking in submiting my essay with my application on > Monday, and after I do that, I'm thinking in writing her an email with my > attach essay in order for her to se it. I would like to hear your opinions > regarding this since you probably experience this before. I will really > appreciate it, if you could help me with this and give me some suggestions > regarding this. Thanks so much and God bless! From mikgephart at icloud.com Sat Mar 22 21:24:00 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:24:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36916633-DBBB-47BB-8B66-A41A38C1710B@icloud.com> Will you be on the call? Sent from my iPad On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > I'm available for an interview if you would like some info about NABS > from 2005-2011. I'll see how much I can remember! I'll be at > convention this year too. > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be >> getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in the >> CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, plan >> for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews >> figured out. >> >> Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. >> Code 7869673. >> >> Hope to see you all there! >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From sandersj6 at att.net Sat Mar 22 21:26:13 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:26:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net><00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net><1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: <3971D160D0644D9C91C8BB34D1B30E04@JohnSandersPC> Hi, I don't have the latest in braille notetaker. I still have the old braille lite millennium 20. One of the keys keeps on sticking. The spacebar key. I've talked with my vocational rehabilitation counselar about it. They've sent it down to the Manufacturer to get it repaired. It got repaired and was sent back. It worked fine for a couple of days. After that, that's when the spacebar key sticks. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question John, I don't mean to be nosy or judgemental. But I'm wondering why you need a scribe in class. Many schools offer notetakers in class or what is often called scribes. Can you take your own notes? I don't know if you have a disability that makes it hard to write while listening. What was done in high school? For me, I always took my notes with a brailler or electronic notetaker. How about bringing something with you to class to take notes? If you have a braille notetaker this works well such as a braille Note or braille sense. You can also bring a tablet device assuming you have one with a keyboard; this might be an ipad orwindows tablet. Some students even use laptops but I never did that as it would be hard to hear jaws and the professor. I don't know why you'd neet someone to write for you; a reader I understand, but a writer, hmm. Also I'm wondering why won't the school assign a notetaker for class now? True, you did not supply your receits, but why does this affect your request for in class support? These are separate accomodations. Your textbooks are contingent on the receits. But requesting in class support is not contingent on getting your texts. This really does not make sense to me. VTW, I had some notetakers for certain classes and it was helpful. My grammar professor wrote lots of examples on the board, and yes she read aloud, but it was fast, and I liked getting to review it later; my notetaker copied down the examples; and no way I could copy it down as she read it. Same with interpersonal communication; he also wrote key outlines on the board, and my notetaker's notes were helpful. So, I'm not knocking the class support. I'm just suggesting you take your own notes if possible. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi, What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks long. With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me to get caught back up with the rest of the class. It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen again. The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not providing any accomidations at all. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class with lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to catch up. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" > wrote: > > Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give you > it for free? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From sandersj6 at att.net Sat Mar 22 21:28:33 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:28:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi, In highschool I did my work in braille. The way it worked was that two people were in a room typing up assignments on a computer and brailling them. The braille worksheets were given to me and I was able to do them. I've gone around and around in circles with my disability services office. I'm going to be requesting a meeting with the director. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 4:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question John, Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business writing and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal studies. You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; publishers do not want to release a book without making money. You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its fair to the publishers. Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once you have given them receits. Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts to the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on bulletin boards at my school. I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you were like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. I would have used bookshare, if it were around. Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do better with human readers. This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if it poses a lot of financial hardship. However, your parents probably will pay the fee. Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting for the disability office. Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library is a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology skills are good. I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the bookstore; I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. Then I can order them with this info. Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about books. Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment on that. I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I think its from Course smart. I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for your accomodations. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi all, I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. Why is this required? I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 21:34:18 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 14:34:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! In-Reply-To: <36916633-DBBB-47BB-8B66-A41A38C1710B@icloud.com> References: <36916633-DBBB-47BB-8B66-A41A38C1710B@icloud.com> Message-ID: <5AF43400-FD05-4275-ABB1-618C6CB52E3F@gmail.com> It sounds like she won't. But, she would be awesome to interview! I'm always amazed at what she remembers This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > > Will you be on the call? > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I'm available for an interview if you would like some info about NABS >> from 2005-2011. I'll see how much I can remember! I'll be at >> convention this year too. >> Best, >> Arielle >> >>> On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> >>> The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be >>> getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in the >>> CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, plan >>> for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews >>> figured out. >>> >>> Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. >>> Code 7869673. >>> >>> Hope to see you all there! >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 21:35:57 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:35:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! In-Reply-To: <5AF43400-FD05-4275-ABB1-618C6CB52E3F@gmail.com> References: <36916633-DBBB-47BB-8B66-A41A38C1710B@icloud.com> <5AF43400-FD05-4275-ABB1-618C6CB52E3F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I wasn't planning on it but I can be there if the committee wants me to be. Arielle On 3/22/14, Darian wrote: > It sounds like she won't. > But, she would be awesome to interview! > I'm always amazed at what she remembers > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Mikayla Gephart >> wrote: >> >> Will you be on the call? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I'm available for an interview if you would like some info about NABS >>> from 2005-2011. I'll see how much I can remember! I'll be at >>> convention this year too. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be >>>> getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in the >>>> CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, plan >>>> for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews >>>> figured out. >>>> >>>> Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. >>>> Code 7869673. >>>> >>>> Hope to see you all there! >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 21:35:04 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:35:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Braille Lite Millennium is ancient! I'm not one to always have the newest technology, but if you already have a voc rehab case, can they get you a more modern notetaker or a laptop for notetaking and homework? Arielle On 3/22/14, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > In highschool I did my work in braille. > The way it worked was that two people were in a room typing up assignments > on a computer and brailling them. > The braille worksheets were given to me and I was able to do them. > I've gone around and around in circles with my disability services office. > I'm going to be requesting a meeting with the director. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 4:53 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > John, > Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a > community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I > figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business writing > and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal > studies. > > You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; publishers > do not want to release a book without making money. > You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you > bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its fair > to the publishers. > Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once you > have given them receits. > Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts to > the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling > them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on bulletin > boards at my school. > > I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your > disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you were > like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. > I would have used bookshare, if it were around. > Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. > > Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do > better with human readers. > This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. > I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. > Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. > Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if it > poses a lot of financial hardship. > > However, your parents probably will pay the fee. > Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting for > the disability office. > Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library is > a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get > them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD > site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology > skills are good. > > I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the bookstore; > I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. > Then I can order them with this info. > Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about books. > Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment on > that. > I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I think > its from Course smart. > > I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for > your accomodations. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 22 21:36:53 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:36:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <3971D160D0644D9C91C8BB34D1B30E04@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <006001cf45ce$99e2f080$cda8d180$@mediacombb.net><00b701cf45e6$d68d41d0$83a7c570$@mediacombb.net><1BEAE77EF81944F29601CEE009B91E92@JohnSandersPC> <3971D160D0644D9C91C8BB34D1B30E04@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: <6001633D515A436CB51F8E4562B2C986@OwnerPC> Hi John, sorry to hear this. I know the problems with old notetakers. I remember when mine kept freezing on me. I had a braille note classic; version 5.1. I got them to purchase me the em power, the latest notetaker at the time, and still have it. I'd say, fight to get them to purchase a notetaker then. Justification is you need it to function independently in classes. A notetaker is no good if it fails to work wich is your case. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi, I don't have the latest in braille notetaker. I still have the old braille lite millennium 20. One of the keys keeps on sticking. The spacebar key. I've talked with my vocational rehabilitation counselar about it. They've sent it down to the Manufacturer to get it repaired. It got repaired and was sent back. It worked fine for a couple of days. After that, that's when the spacebar key sticks. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question John, I don't mean to be nosy or judgemental. But I'm wondering why you need a scribe in class. Many schools offer notetakers in class or what is often called scribes. Can you take your own notes? I don't know if you have a disability that makes it hard to write while listening. What was done in high school? For me, I always took my notes with a brailler or electronic notetaker. How about bringing something with you to class to take notes? If you have a braille notetaker this works well such as a braille Note or braille sense. You can also bring a tablet device assuming you have one with a keyboard; this might be an ipad orwindows tablet. Some students even use laptops but I never did that as it would be hard to hear jaws and the professor. I don't know why you'd neet someone to write for you; a reader I understand, but a writer, hmm. Also I'm wondering why won't the school assign a notetaker for class now? True, you did not supply your receits, but why does this affect your request for in class support? These are separate accomodations. Your textbooks are contingent on the receits. But requesting in class support is not contingent on getting your texts. This really does not make sense to me. VTW, I had some notetakers for certain classes and it was helpful. My grammar professor wrote lots of examples on the board, and yes she read aloud, but it was fast, and I liked getting to review it later; my notetaker copied down the examples; and no way I could copy it down as she read it. Same with interpersonal communication; he also wrote key outlines on the board, and my notetaker's notes were helpful. So, I'm not knocking the class support. I'm just suggesting you take your own notes if possible. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 1:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi, What makes it worse is that both of my classes I'm taking are 8 weeks long. With out a reader and some one to write, it's going to be hard for me to get caught back up with the rest of the class. It's my fault for not notifying the Office of disability supported services that I needed these accomidations ahead of time. This is a lesson that I've learned and will make sure it doesn't happen again. The community college that I'm going to is trying to go towards what my major University, Michigan State University is doing. That's not providing any accomidations at all. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Loren Wakefield Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:53 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question It's not just that. Even once a receipt is turned in, it can still take several weeks to get the books. And when you are dealing with a class with lots of reading, or is on an accelerated schedule, it can be fun trying to catch up. Loren -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:17 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi guys, this is Helga. I think buying the books and bring a receipt is not really so good. They are actually very expensive. It's not need for us to purchase books with our own money since we can't read it and we are going to get an electronic copy of it. But the only way if we are buying the book is we have financial aid in order to buy them. But Financial Aid always comes four or two days before class and that is not good for us since we are not able to get our books in text or something! I think they should give Financial aid to all visually impaired studets and other disabled students in order to buy the books before hand so that they can give it to the DSS office! What do you think about this? Just curious! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:59 AM, "Loren Wakefield" > wrote: > > Ed proof that you have paid them for their work. Why should they give you > it for free? > > Loren > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 22 21:38:06 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:38:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC><0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: John, oh, I understand. In this case, then, a notetaker is reasonable and they need to provide that. Again, it has nothing to do with ordering your accessible texts. Yes have a meeting. be polite, but forceful. good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi, In highschool I did my work in braille. The way it worked was that two people were in a room typing up assignments on a computer and brailling them. The braille worksheets were given to me and I was able to do them. I've gone around and around in circles with my disability services office. I'm going to be requesting a meeting with the director. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 4:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question John, Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business writing and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal studies. You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; publishers do not want to release a book without making money. You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its fair to the publishers. Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once you have given them receits. Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts to the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on bulletin boards at my school. I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you were like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. I would have used bookshare, if it were around. Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do better with human readers. This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if it poses a lot of financial hardship. However, your parents probably will pay the fee. Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting for the disability office. Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library is a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology skills are good. I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the bookstore; I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. Then I can order them with this info. Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about books. Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment on that. I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I think its from Course smart. I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for your accomodations. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi all, I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. Why is this required? I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From mikgephart at icloud.com Sat Mar 22 21:41:56 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:41:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! In-Reply-To: <5AF43400-FD05-4275-ABB1-618C6CB52E3F@gmail.com> References: <36916633-DBBB-47BB-8B66-A41A38C1710B@icloud.com> <5AF43400-FD05-4275-ABB1-618C6CB52E3F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am considering talking to her. We both have amazing memories. Look for an email from me soon, Arielle.Mikayla Sent from my iPad On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Darian wrote: > It sounds like she won't. > But, she would be awesome to interview! > I'm always amazed at what she remembers > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >> >> Will you be on the call? >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I'm available for an interview if you would like some info about NABS >>> from 2005-2011. I'll see how much I can remember! I'll be at >>> convention this year too. >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be >>>> getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in the >>>> CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, plan >>>> for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews >>>> figured out. >>>> >>>> Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. >>>> Code 7869673. >>>> >>>> Hope to see you all there! >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 22 21:50:57 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:50:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC><0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Arielle, I second that! How terrible. No wonder his notetaker keeps sticking. its ancient! I hope he gets a new one. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Braille Lite Millennium is ancient! I'm not one to always have the newest technology, but if you already have a voc rehab case, can they get you a more modern notetaker or a laptop for notetaking and homework? Arielle On 3/22/14, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > In highschool I did my work in braille. > The way it worked was that two people were in a room typing up assignments > on a computer and brailling them. > The braille worksheets were given to me and I was able to do them. > I've gone around and around in circles with my disability services office. > I'm going to be requesting a meeting with the director. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 4:53 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > John, > Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a > community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I > figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business writing > and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal > studies. > > You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; > publishers > do not want to release a book without making money. > You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you > bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its > fair > to the publishers. > Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once > you > have given them receits. > Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts > to > the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling > them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on bulletin > boards at my school. > > I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your > disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you > were > like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. > I would have used bookshare, if it were around. > Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. > > Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do > better with human readers. > This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. > I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. > Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. > Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if > it > poses a lot of financial hardship. > > However, your parents probably will pay the fee. > Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting > for > the disability office. > Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library > is > a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get > them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD > site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology > skills are good. > > I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the > bookstore; > I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. > Then I can order them with this info. > Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about > books. > Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment on > that. > I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I > think > its from Course smart. > > I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for > your accomodations. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 22:03:09 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:03:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! In-Reply-To: References: <36916633-DBBB-47BB-8B66-A41A38C1710B@icloud.com> <5AF43400-FD05-4275-ABB1-618C6CB52E3F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CC19687-86AF-4EFB-A145-56EF10E6D9DD@gmail.com> Mikaela, Are you on this committee as well? This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:41 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > > I am considering talking to her. We both have amazing memories. Look for an email from me soon, Arielle.Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Darian wrote: >> >> It sounds like she won't. >> But, she would be awesome to interview! >> I'm always amazed at what she remembers >> >> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >> >>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >>> >>> Will you be on the call? >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> I'm available for an interview if you would like some info about NABS >>>> from 2005-2011. I'll see how much I can remember! I'll be at >>>> convention this year too. >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> >>>>> The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be >>>>> getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in the >>>>> CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, plan >>>>> for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews >>>>> figured out. >>>>> >>>>> Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. >>>>> Code 7869673. >>>>> >>>>> Hope to see you all there! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Sat Mar 22 22:28:40 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 18:28:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! In-Reply-To: <9CC19687-86AF-4EFB-A145-56EF10E6D9DD@gmail.com> References: <36916633-DBBB-47BB-8B66-A41A38C1710B@icloud.com> <5AF43400-FD05-4275-ABB1-618C6CB52E3F@gmail.com> <9CC19687-86AF-4EFB-A145-56EF10E6D9DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5409930D-4BD5-4CC5-B6A8-48A812163C6C@icloud.com> Yes. Sent from my iPad On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:03 PM, Darian wrote: > Mikaela, > Are you on this committee as well? > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:41 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >> >> I am considering talking to her. We both have amazing memories. Look for an email from me soon, Arielle.Mikayla >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Darian wrote: >>> >>> It sounds like she won't. >>> But, she would be awesome to interview! >>> I'm always amazed at what she remembers >>> >>> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >>>> >>>> Will you be on the call? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I'm available for an interview if you would like some info about NABS >>>>> from 2005-2011. I'll see how much I can remember! I'll be at >>>>> convention this year too. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>> >>>>>> The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be >>>>>> getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in the >>>>>> CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, plan >>>>>> for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews >>>>>> figured out. >>>>>> >>>>>> Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. >>>>>> Code 7869673. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hope to see you all there! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From opensesame at me.com Sat Mar 22 22:37:07 2014 From: opensesame at me.com (Bryan Jones) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 18:37:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Kindle Application In-Reply-To: <02FD3BC9-AC7A-400C-9027-C4A60123C509@gmail.com> References: <02FD3BC9-AC7A-400C-9027-C4A60123C509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0E89F693-210B-42D8-8036-02D88CF2C5E5@me.com> Hello Elif, Yes, the Kindle application for MS Windows can be used to read Kindle books aloud, assuming the book in question is Text-to-Speech enabled as noted in the details section of Amazon’s listing for the book. You will need to install the Kindle for PC Accessibility Plug-in. Instructions can be found at the following link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200596280 Also, I believe the Windows App still does not provide the same level of navigation granularity as found in the IOS Kindle App. HTH, Bryan >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Elif Emir wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I did set up the kindle application on my Microsoft computer, and then >> downloaded a book from Amazon; however, I can't read it with my jaws. >> Is the kindle application only accessible on Apple devices? >> Is there a way that I can access my kindle book on my Microsoft >> Windows computer? From sandersj6 at att.net Sat Mar 22 22:07:38 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 18:07:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC><0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi, And what's worse is that in my previous class, the instructer said you need to find other ways to get things done. I told her about recording the classes. She said that recording isn't very effective. I'm doing what I can with what I have. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Arielle, I second that! How terrible. No wonder his notetaker keeps sticking. its ancient! I hope he gets a new one. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:35 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Braille Lite Millennium is ancient! I'm not one to always have the newest technology, but if you already have a voc rehab case, can they get you a more modern notetaker or a laptop for notetaking and homework? Arielle On 3/22/14, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > In highschool I did my work in braille. > The way it worked was that two people were in a room typing up assignments > on a computer and brailling them. > The braille worksheets were given to me and I was able to do them. > I've gone around and around in circles with my disability services office. > I'm going to be requesting a meeting with the director. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 4:53 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > John, > Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a > community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I > figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business writing > and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal > studies. > > You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; > publishers > do not want to release a book without making money. > You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you > bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its > fair > to the publishers. > Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once > you > have given them receits. > Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts > to > the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling > them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on bulletin > boards at my school. > > I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your > disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you > were > like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. > I would have used bookshare, if it were around. > Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. > > Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do > better with human readers. > This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. > I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. > Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. > Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if > it > poses a lot of financial hardship. > > However, your parents probably will pay the fee. > Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting > for > the disability office. > Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library > is > a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get > them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD > site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology > skills are good. > > I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the > bookstore; > I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. > Then I can order them with this info. > Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about > books. > Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment on > that. > I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I > think > its from Course smart. > > I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for > your accomodations. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 22:50:20 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:50:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi John, How are you typing your emails to the list? Could you use the computer you're typing on for notetaking too, or is it a desktop? Recording is not very effective because you aren't the one actively writing down info, and the info is not filtered so it's hard to know what you really need written down, unless you record and then type notes later on the recordings. Having someone else take notes has similar issues because you aren't actively engaging with the material. Arielle On 3/22/14, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > And what's worse is that in my previous class, the instructer said you need > > to find other ways to get things done. > I told her about recording the classes. > She said that recording isn't very effective. > I'm doing what I can with what I have. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Arielle, > I second that! How terrible. No wonder his notetaker keeps sticking. its > ancient! > I hope he gets a new one. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Braille Lite Millennium is ancient! I'm not one to always have the > newest technology, but if you already have a voc rehab case, can they > get you a more modern notetaker or a laptop for notetaking and > homework? > Arielle > > On 3/22/14, John Sanders wrote: >> Hi, >> In highschool I did my work in braille. >> The way it worked was that two people were in a room typing up >> assignments >> on a computer and brailling them. >> The braille worksheets were given to me and I was able to do them. >> I've gone around and around in circles with my disability services >> office. >> I'm going to be requesting a meeting with the director. >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ashley Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 4:53 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> John, >> Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a >> community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I >> figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business >> writing >> and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal >> studies. >> >> You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; >> publishers >> do not want to release a book without making money. >> You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you >> bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its >> fair >> to the publishers. >> Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once >> you >> have given them receits. >> Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts >> >> to >> the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling >> them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on >> bulletin >> boards at my school. >> >> I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your >> disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you >> were >> like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. >> I would have used bookshare, if it were around. >> Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. >> >> Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do >> better with human readers. >> This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. >> I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. >> Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. >> Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if >> it >> poses a lot of financial hardship. >> >> However, your parents probably will pay the fee. >> Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting >> for >> the disability office. >> Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library >> >> is >> a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get >> them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD >> site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology >> skills are good. >> >> I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the >> bookstore; >> I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. >> Then I can order them with this info. >> Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about >> books. >> Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment >> on >> that. >> I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I >> think >> its from Course smart. >> >> I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for >> your accomodations. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Sanders >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> Hi all, >> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and >> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >> Why is this required? >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sandersj6 at att.net Sat Mar 22 23:44:21 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 19:44:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC><0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi, I'm using a desktop. all of the laptop computers are using touchscreens. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:50 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi John, How are you typing your emails to the list? Could you use the computer you're typing on for notetaking too, or is it a desktop? Recording is not very effective because you aren't the one actively writing down info, and the info is not filtered so it's hard to know what you really need written down, unless you record and then type notes later on the recordings. Having someone else take notes has similar issues because you aren't actively engaging with the material. Arielle On 3/22/14, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > And what's worse is that in my previous class, the instructer said you > need > > to find other ways to get things done. > I told her about recording the classes. > She said that recording isn't very effective. > I'm doing what I can with what I have. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:50 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Arielle, > I second that! How terrible. No wonder his notetaker keeps sticking. its > ancient! > I hope he gets a new one. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:35 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Braille Lite Millennium is ancient! I'm not one to always have the > newest technology, but if you already have a voc rehab case, can they > get you a more modern notetaker or a laptop for notetaking and > homework? > Arielle > > On 3/22/14, John Sanders wrote: >> Hi, >> In highschool I did my work in braille. >> The way it worked was that two people were in a room typing up >> assignments >> on a computer and brailling them. >> The braille worksheets were given to me and I was able to do them. >> I've gone around and around in circles with my disability services >> office. >> I'm going to be requesting a meeting with the director. >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ashley Bramlett >> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 4:53 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> John, >> Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a >> community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I >> figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business >> writing >> and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal >> studies. >> >> You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; >> publishers >> do not want to release a book without making money. >> You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you >> bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its >> fair >> to the publishers. >> Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once >> you >> have given them receits. >> Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts >> >> to >> the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling >> them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on >> bulletin >> boards at my school. >> >> I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your >> disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you >> were >> like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. >> I would have used bookshare, if it were around. >> Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. >> >> Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do >> better with human readers. >> This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. >> I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. >> Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. >> Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if >> it >> poses a lot of financial hardship. >> >> However, your parents probably will pay the fee. >> Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting >> for >> the disability office. >> Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library >> >> is >> a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get >> them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD >> site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology >> skills are good. >> >> I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the >> bookstore; >> I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. >> Then I can order them with this info. >> Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about >> books. >> Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment >> on >> that. >> I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I >> think >> its from Course smart. >> >> I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for >> your accomodations. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Sanders >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> Hi all, >> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and >> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >> Why is this required? >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From marissat789 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 00:43:50 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:43:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532e2e4c.819a420a.03ca.699c@mx.google.com> Hey, Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? From lissa1531 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 01:29:45 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 19:29:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Kindle Application References: <02FD3BC9-AC7A-400C-9027-C4A60123C509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C360C1FAC594973A5AA09507FE0A09F@HP30910210001> there is a kinddle for PC. You have to search for it on amazon. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Nusbaum" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Kindle Application Unfortunately, the Kindle app is only accessible on iOS devices at this time. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Elif Emir wrote: > > Hi all, > I did set up the kindle application on my Microsoft computer, and then > downloaded a book from Amazon; however, I can't read it with my jaws. > Is the kindle application only accessible on Apple devices? > Is there a way that I can access my kindle book on my Microsoft > Windows computer? > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 01:37:09 2014 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa R Green) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 19:37:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <53BD6000A50242CA842110E25903596B@HP30910210001> Many schools also have memberships to both bookshare and learning ally. they can sign students up on there accounts. Have a blessed day. Best Wishes Melissa R. Green and Pj ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question John, Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business writing and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal studies. You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; publishers do not want to release a book without making money. You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its fair to the publishers. Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once you have given them receits. Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts to the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on bulletin boards at my school. I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you were like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. I would have used bookshare, if it were around. Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do better with human readers. This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if it poses a lot of financial hardship. However, your parents probably will pay the fee. Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting for the disability office. Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library is a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology skills are good. I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the bookstore; I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. Then I can order them with this info. Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about books. Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment on that. I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I think its from Course smart. I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for your accomodations. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: John Sanders Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi all, I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. Why is this required? I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 01:39:05 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan L. Silveira) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <532e2e4c.819a420a.03ca.699c@mx.google.com> References: <532e2e4c.819a420a.03ca.699c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4B924214-23C6-4ABF-8CA9-8A269A5E3651@gmail.com> Hi Marisa, I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an iPhone? there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad or an iPod touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music store. They are very cheap. Ryan L. Silveira Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From marissat789 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 01:47:54 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 18:47:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532e3d50.a2c5440a.4647.ffffa2df@mx.google.com> No, I only have the Apex. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan L. Silveira" wrote: Hey, Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei ra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 02:44:11 2014 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 22:44:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Windows 8.1 with JAWS Message-ID: Hi All! Hope you are doing well! I was wondering if any of you use the Windows 8.1 operating software with JAWS? If so, how well does it interact with one other? I am looking into getting a new system and am asking your feedback. Thanks in advance, Justin From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Sun Mar 23 04:53:05 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 22:53:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Windows 8.1 with JAWS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <532E68B1.3040704@comcast.net> Hey, Justin. I'd recommend NVDA whyen using Windows 8.1 so you don't have to buy JAWS for thousands of dollars. The keystrokes are really similar to JAWS and some are Windows Standard. I think Microsoft wanted to copy Apple, which is nuts. Beth On 3/22/2014 8:44 PM, Justin Young wrote: > Hi All! > > Hope you are doing well! I was wondering if any of you use the > Windows 8.1 operating software with JAWS? If so, how well does it > interact with one other? I am looking into getting a new system and > am asking your feedback. > > Thanks in advance, > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From louvins at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 05:32:37 2014 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 00:32:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Windows 8.1 with JAWS In-Reply-To: <532E68B1.3040704@comcast.net> References: <532E68B1.3040704@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Justin. If you do get a new system, I'd recommend getting a windows7 machine. You won't have to deal with the screen issues with windows8. Windows7 is very easy to use, very similar to windows xp. I am using jaws 13 with my system, and it works very well. On 3/22/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: > Hey, Justin. I'd recommend NVDA whyen using Windows 8.1 so you don't > have to buy JAWS for thousands of dollars. The keystrokes are really > similar to JAWS and some are Windows Standard. I think Microsoft wanted > to copy Apple, which is nuts. > Beth > > On 3/22/2014 8:44 PM, Justin Young wrote: >> Hi All! >> >> Hope you are doing well! I was wondering if any of you use the >> Windows 8.1 operating software with JAWS? If so, how well does it >> interact with one other? I am looking into getting a new system and >> am asking your feedback. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Justin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 10:26:22 2014 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 06:26:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Windows 8.1 with JAWS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Justin. JAWS 15 and Windows 8.1 work fine together. You can tackle the learning curve by spending 10-15 minutes with Freedom Scientific's help files. If you are in a pinch, your old favorites, such as WindowsKey+M/D, will still take you to your standard desktop. The Windows key will bring up a new tiled grid start menu interface, and you can arrow among a selection of programs or type in an application in the search box. WindowsKey+X will bring up a standard context menu, where you can get to shortcuts such as your file manager, control panel, and programs and features. I think there's some fear and exaggeration when people say to stay away from a new operating system or program. Yes, Windows 8.1 is new, but you can handle it. You will want JAWS 14 or later for Windows 8. Otherwise, Beth's suggestion of NVDA might serve you well. Brice On 3/22/14, Justin Young wrote: > Hi All! > > Hope you are doing well! I was wondering if any of you use the > Windows 8.1 operating software with JAWS? If so, how well does it > interact with one other? I am looking into getting a new system and > am asking your feedback. > > Thanks in advance, > > Justin > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > From mikgephart at icloud.com Sun Mar 23 17:23:48 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 13:23:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] speech for stone harbor lions club Message-ID: Hi, I will be giving a speech for a local lions club. What do you think of it? Mikayla -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: speech for stone harbor lions club.doc Type: application/msword Size: 18944 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPad From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sun Mar 23 17:43:11 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 13:43:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] speech for stone harbor lions club In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Makayla, What is the points you are trying to make? I mean, why were you invited to give this speech? I like what you are saying. You may want to have someone who goes to lions clubs on a regular basis to double check your speech to ensure that mainly your addressing the appropriate audience. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2014, at 1:23 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > > Hi, > I will be giving a speech for a local lions club. What do you think of it? > Mikayla > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sun Mar 23 18:00:32 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <532e3d50.a2c5440a.4647.ffffa2df@mx.google.com> References: <532e3d50.a2c5440a.4647.ffffa2df@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <75354431-C3AA-4D47-83C6-B5BE422B07D5@fuse.net> Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I would simply recomend buying one if you can. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > No, I only have the Apex. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Hi Marisa, > I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an iPhone? there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad or an iPod touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music store. They are very cheap. > Ryan L. Silveira > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From marissat789 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 18:12:17 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 11:12:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532f2409.e2c5440a.1895.5b28@mx.google.com> I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington wrote: No, I only have the Apex. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan L. Silveira" wrote: Hey, Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei ra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 19:39:31 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 13:39:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <53BD6000A50242CA842110E25903596B@HP30910210001> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> <53BD6000A50242CA842110E25903596B@HP30910210001> Message-ID: I think some modern laptops still have keyboards, and JAWS is starting to support touch screens. I'd love to hear more about current laptop options since I will need to get a new one soon. You may also have luck with an older laptop or netbook, or with a Macbook running VoiceOver. There are a lot of modern notetaking solutions out there that are accessible. Another option would be to ask for an Ipad or Iphone and Braille display. Arielle On 3/22/14, melissa R Green wrote: > Many schools also have memberships to both bookshare and learning ally. > they can sign students up on there accounts. > Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 2:53 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > > John, > Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a > community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I > figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business writing > and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal > studies. > > You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; publishers > do not want to release a book without making money. > You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you > bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its fair > to the publishers. > Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once you > have given them receits. > Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell texts to > the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling > them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on bulletin > boards at my school. > > I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your > disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you were > like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. > I would have used bookshare, if it were around. > Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. > > Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do > better with human readers. > This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. > I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. > Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out more. > Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if it > poses a lot of financial hardship. > > However, your parents probably will pay the fee. > Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting for > the disability office. > Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS library is > a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get > them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD > site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology > skills are good. > > I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the bookstore; > I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. > Then I can order them with this info. > Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about books. > Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment on > that. > I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I think > its from Course smart. > > I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for > your accomodations. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Sanders > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Mar 23 19:51:58 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 12:51:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> <53BD6000A50242CA842110E25903596B@HP30910210001> Message-ID: All laptops have keyboards. Some may also be touch screen. If it does not have a keyboard it will be considered a tablet. On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I think some modern laptops still have keyboards, and JAWS is starting > to support touch screens. I'd love to hear more about current laptop > options since I will need to get a new one soon. You may also have > luck with an older laptop or netbook, or with a Macbook running > VoiceOver. There are a lot of modern notetaking solutions out there > that are accessible. Another option would be to ask for an Ipad or > Iphone and Braille display. > > Arielle > > On 3/22/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > Many schools also have memberships to both bookshare and learning ally. > > they can sign students up on there accounts. > > Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 2:53 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > > > > > John, > > Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a > > community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I > > figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business > writing > > and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal > > studies. > > > > You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; > publishers > > do not want to release a book without making money. > > You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof you > > bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its > fair > > to the publishers. > > Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once > you > > have given them receits. > > Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell > texts to > > the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling > > them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on > bulletin > > boards at my school. > > > > I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your > > disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you > were > > like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. > > I would have used bookshare, if it were around. > > Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. > > > > Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do > > better with human readers. > > This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. > > I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. > > Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out > more. > > Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if > it > > poses a lot of financial hardship. > > > > However, your parents probably will pay the fee. > > Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting > for > > the disability office. > > Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS > library is > > a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get > > them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the BARD > > site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology > > skills are good. > > > > I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the > bookstore; > > I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. > > Then I can order them with this info. > > Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about > books. > > Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment > on > > that. > > I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I > think > > its from Course smart. > > > > I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive for > > your accomodations. > > > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Sanders > > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > > > Hi all, > > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and > > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > > Why is this required? > > I hope to hear from you soon. > > Sincerely, > > John Sanders > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 20:19:22 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan L. Silveira) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:19:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <532f2409.e2c5440a.1895.5b28@mx.google.com> References: <532f2409.e2c5440a.1895.5b28@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5E3125F6-95DA-40F3-AC9F-6AB62AE6CDE4@gmail.com> Even if you do use YouTube, the recording will not be at the speed you want. Buying one is probably your best bet. They really are very cheap. Something like five dollars. Maybe less. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I would simply recomend buying one if you can. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > No, I only have the Apex. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Hi Marisa, > I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an iPhone? there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad or an iPod touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music store. They are very cheap. > Ryan L. Silveira > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From marissat789 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 20:24:12 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 13:24:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532f42f5.88c2440a.1a42.5827@mx.google.com> Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll see if we can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan L. Silveira" wrote: I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington wrote: No, I only have the Apex. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan L. Silveira" wrote: Hey, Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei ra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei ra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From jty727 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 20:57:07 2014 From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:57:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Windows 8.1 with JAWS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm in the process of getting JAWS 15 and from Brice's email it sounds like it would work which is good to hear! I'm not familiar enough to know, but what is the difference from Windows 8 to 8.1? Is 8.1 better than 8? I've read that was the hope at least. Thanks again, Justin On 3/23/14, Brice Smith wrote: > Hi, Justin. > > JAWS 15 and Windows 8.1 work fine together. You can tackle the > learning curve by spending 10-15 minutes with Freedom Scientific's > help files. If you are in a pinch, your old favorites, such as > WindowsKey+M/D, will still take you to your standard desktop. The > Windows key will bring up a new tiled grid start menu interface, and > you can arrow among a selection of programs or type in an application > in the search box. WindowsKey+X will bring up a standard context menu, > where you can get to shortcuts such as your file manager, control > panel, and programs and features. > > I think there's some fear and exaggeration when people say to stay > away from a new operating system or program. Yes, Windows 8.1 is new, > but you can handle it. You will want JAWS 14 or later for Windows 8. > Otherwise, Beth's suggestion of NVDA might serve you well. > > Brice > > > On 3/22/14, Justin Young wrote: >> Hi All! >> >> Hope you are doing well! I was wondering if any of you use the >> Windows 8.1 operating software with JAWS? If so, how well does it >> interact with one other? I am looking into getting a new system and >> am asking your feedback. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Justin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com > From sandersj6 at att.net Sun Mar 23 21:40:16 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:40:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC><0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC><53BD6000A50242CA842110E25903596B@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <1F78023DADB348C686141332692E6F04@JohnSandersPC> Hi, I've contacted best buy to see if they had any laptops that have keyboards. They said that they didn't. I'm looking for a laptop with a keyboard. What stores sell laptops with keyboard layouts? I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 3:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question All laptops have keyboards. Some may also be touch screen. If it does not have a keyboard it will be considered a tablet. On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > I think some modern laptops still have keyboards, and JAWS is starting > to support touch screens. I'd love to hear more about current laptop > options since I will need to get a new one soon. You may also have > luck with an older laptop or netbook, or with a Macbook running > VoiceOver. There are a lot of modern notetaking solutions out there > that are accessible. Another option would be to ask for an Ipad or > Iphone and Braille display. > > Arielle > > On 3/22/14, melissa R Green wrote: > > Many schools also have memberships to both bookshare and learning ally. > > they can sign students up on there accounts. > > Have a blessed day. > > Best Wishes > > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 2:53 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > > > > > John, > > Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a > > community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I > > figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business > writing > > and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal > > studies. > > > > You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; > publishers > > do not want to release a book without making money. > > You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof > > you > > bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its > fair > > to the publishers. > > Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once > you > > have given them receits. > > Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell > texts to > > the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling > > them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on > bulletin > > boards at my school. > > > > I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your > > disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you > were > > like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. > > I would have used bookshare, if it were around. > > Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. > > > > Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do > > better with human readers. > > This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. > > I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. > > Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out > more. > > Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if > it > > poses a lot of financial hardship. > > > > However, your parents probably will pay the fee. > > Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting > for > > the disability office. > > Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS > library is > > a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get > > them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the > > BARD > > site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology > > skills are good. > > > > I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the > bookstore; > > I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. > > Then I can order them with this info. > > Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about > books. > > Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment > on > > that. > > I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I > think > > its from Course smart. > > > > I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive > > for > > your accomodations. > > > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Sanders > > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > > > Hi all, > > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College > > and > > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > > Why is this required? > > I hope to hear from you soon. > > Sincerely, > > John Sanders > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Mar 23 21:46:43 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:46:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <1F78023DADB348C686141332692E6F04@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> <53BD6000A50242CA842110E25903596B@HP30910210001> <1F78023DADB348C686141332692E6F04@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: I am pretty sure best buy must have misunderstood the question. Last time I was there they had laptops. All laptops have keyboards. Only tablets do not have keyboards. Best buy has 922 laptops on their website all have keyboards. On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:40 PM, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > I've contacted best buy to see if they had any laptops that have keyboards. > They said that they didn't. > I'm looking for a laptop with a keyboard. > What stores sell laptops with keyboard layouts? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 3:51 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > All laptops have keyboards. Some may also be touch screen. > > If it does not have a keyboard it will be considered a tablet. > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Arielle Silverman < > Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > > I think some modern laptops still have keyboards, and JAWS is starting >> to support touch screens. I'd love to hear more about current laptop >> options since I will need to get a new one soon. You may also have >> luck with an older laptop or netbook, or with a Macbook running >> VoiceOver. There are a lot of modern notetaking solutions out there >> that are accessible. Another option would be to ask for an Ipad or >> Iphone and Braille display. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 3/22/14, melissa R Green wrote: >> > Many schools also have memberships to both bookshare and learning ally. >> > they can sign students up on there accounts. >> > Have a blessed day. >> > Best Wishes >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 2:53 PM >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> > >> > >> > John, >> > Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend a >> > community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I >> > figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business >> writing >> > and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in liberal >> > studies. >> > >> > You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; >> publishers >> > do not want to release a book without making money. >> > You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof > >> you >> > bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its >> fair >> > to the publishers. >> > Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books once >> you >> > have given them receits. >> > Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell >> texts to >> > the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try selling >> > them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on >> bulletin >> > boards at my school. >> > >> > I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your >> > disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If you >> were >> > like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. >> > I would have used bookshare, if it were around. >> > Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. >> > >> > Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I do >> > better with human readers. >> > This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. >> > I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. >> > Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out >> more. >> > Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver if >> it >> > poses a lot of financial hardship. >> > >> > However, your parents probably will pay the fee. >> > Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than waiting >> for >> > the disability office. >> > Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS >> library is >> > a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and get >> > them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the > >> BARD >> > site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology >> > skills are good. >> > >> > I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the >> bookstore; >> > I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. >> > Then I can order them with this info. >> > Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about >> books. >> > Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot comment >> on >> > that. >> > I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I >> think >> > its from Course smart. >> > >> > I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive > >> for >> > your accomodations. >> > >> > Ashley >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: John Sanders >> > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM >> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> > >> > Hi all, >> > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College > >> and >> > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >> > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >> > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >> > Why is this required? >> > I hope to hear from you soon. >> > Sincerely, >> > John Sanders >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 21:52:33 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan L. Silveira) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:52:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <532f42f5.88c2440a.1a42.5827@mx.google.com> References: <532f42f5.88c2440a.1a42.5827@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yes. You should be able to find one for about $10 at any music store. I would be surprised if they were much more expensive than that. I mean, you just need a cheap little metronome. You don't need anything fancy, right? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll see if we can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:19:22 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Even if you do use YouTube, the recording will not be at the speed you want. Buying one is probably your best bet. They really are very cheap. Something like five dollars. Maybe less. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I would simply recomend buying one if you can. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > No, I only have the Apex. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Hi Marisa, > I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an iPhone? there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad or an iPod touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music store. They are very cheap. > Ryan L. Silveira > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From marissat789 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:04:26 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 15:04:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532f5a73.aa86440a.7924.74bf@mx.google.com> Correct. How easy is it to use, not being able to see? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan L. Silveira" wrote: Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll see if we can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan L. Silveira" wrote: I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington wrote: No, I only have the Apex. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan L. Silveira" wrote: Hey, Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei ra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei ra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei ra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:05:44 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:05:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] An Article regarding in How guide dogs bound with their owner Message-ID: <056E94D9-72D1-4037-9BD8-62F40D0FC827@gmail.com> Hi all, this is Helga! How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that my mom is in college and she told me that she is going to do a PowerPoint presentation in her class regarding topic that she likes, and I actually suggest her that probably she can pick and article in how a guide dog bound with his or her owner, and she told me that sounds like a great idea! I know that they are many topics about guide dogs. However, I just wanted to ask you, could you send me a small article that talks about a guide dogs bounding with their owner and what is the process in getting them to do so? I will really appreciate it , if you could help me with this and give me some suggestions regarding this. The article doesn't have to big since my mom only needs to do a 10 minutes presentation to her class. And if you can, could you allso send me a video of you and your dog where you talk about how your dog started bounding with you, but it only needs to last 2 minutes or so ok? And don't forget to mention your name and your dog's name. That will be nice in order for my mom to use! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!! :) Sent from my iPhone From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:13:21 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:13:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0182B1375B914CBC9E46E5848A3192BA@OwnerPC> <53BD6000A50242CA842110E25903596B@HP30910210001> <1F78023DADB348C686141332692E6F04@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: You can also read up a lot on laptops at www.amazon.com Arielle On 3/23/14, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I am pretty sure best buy must have misunderstood the question. Last time I > was there they had laptops. All laptops have keyboards. Only tablets do not > have keyboards. Best buy has 922 laptops on their website all have > keyboards. > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:40 PM, John Sanders wrote: > >> Hi, >> I've contacted best buy to see if they had any laptops that have >> keyboards. >> They said that they didn't. >> I'm looking for a laptop with a keyboard. >> What stores sell laptops with keyboard layouts? >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano >> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 3:51 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> All laptops have keyboards. Some may also be touch screen. >> >> If it does not have a keyboard it will be considered a tablet. >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Arielle Silverman < >> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: >> >> I think some modern laptops still have keyboards, and JAWS is starting >>> to support touch screens. I'd love to hear more about current laptop >>> options since I will need to get a new one soon. You may also have >>> luck with an older laptop or netbook, or with a Macbook running >>> VoiceOver. There are a lot of modern notetaking solutions out there >>> that are accessible. Another option would be to ask for an Ipad or >>> Iphone and Braille display. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/22/14, melissa R Green wrote: >>> > Many schools also have memberships to both bookshare and learning >>> > ally. >>> > they can sign students up on there accounts. >>> > Have a blessed day. >>> > Best Wishes >>> > Melissa R. Green and Pj >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> > >>> > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 2:53 PM >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>> > >>> > >>> > John, >>> > Its required by most schools including ones I attended. I also attend >>> > a >>> > community college now for continuing education. May sound weird, but I >>> > figured its cheaper, and I wanted to get some guidance on business >>> writing >>> > and business classes in general while seeking work; my BA is in >>> > liberal >>> > studies. >>> > >>> > You have to buy the books because you cannot get a book for free; >>> publishers >>> > do not want to release a book without making money. >>> > You have to give receits to your disability services office as proof >>> > > >>> you >>> > bought the book. May seem unfair as you cannot read the texts, but its >>> fair >>> > to the publishers. >>> > Your school will then request an electronic text copy of your books >>> > once >>> you >>> > have given them receits. >>> > Remember you can buy used texts to save money. Also, you can resell >>> texts to >>> > the bookstore when semester ends. If they won't accept them, try >>> > selling >>> > them to other students. Ads are up all the time for used books on >>> bulletin >>> > boards at my school. >>> > >>> > I'll also reiterate what was said. You may not have to wait on your >>> > disability office to get texts. How did you read in high school? If >>> > you >>> were >>> > like me, you used Recording for the blind, now, named learning ally. >>> > I would have used bookshare, if it were around. >>> > Bookshare, Learning ally, and NLS are good sources of books. >>> > >>> > Do you learn better with a synthetic voice or human reader? For me, I >>> > do >>> > better with human readers. >>> > This is why I use learning ally a lot for texts. >>> > I suggest you have a bookshare and learning ally account. >>> > Bookshare is free for students. Go to www.bookshare.org to find out >>> more. >>> > Learning ally requires an annual fee now, but you can request a waver >>> > if >>> it >>> > poses a lot of financial hardship. >>> > >>> > However, your parents probably will pay the fee. >>> > Through these sources, you can order your own texts, rather than >>> > waiting >>> for >>> > the disability office. >>> > Also, for general novels you read in history and english, the NLS >>> library is >>> > a good source. You can order books from your cooperating library and >>> > get >>> > them in the mail on digital cartrige. Alternatively, you can use the > >>> BARD >>> > site and download them yourself using a flash drive if your technology >>> > skills are good. >>> > >>> > I often just get my own texts. I find out the book info from the >>> bookstore; >>> > I ask about the name, author, edition and publisher. >>> > Then I can order them with this info. >>> > Another way is to email the professor of the class and ask them about >>> books. >>> > Some ebooks are now accessible, but never used those, so cannot >>> > comment >>> on >>> > that. >>> > I know the bookstores I encountered let you purchase or rent ebooks. I >>> think >>> > its from Course smart. >>> > >>> > I hope you do well in school, and next time, be a bit more proactive >>> > > >>> for >>> > your accomodations. >>> > >>> > Ashley >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: John Sanders >>> > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM >>> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>> > >>> > Hi all, >>> > I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College >>> > > >>> and >>> > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want >>> > to >>> > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, >>> > I >>> > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the >>> > books. >>> > Why is this required? >>> > I hope to hear from you soon. >>> > Sincerely, >>> > John Sanders >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:33:05 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan Silveira) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:33:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <532f5a73.aa86440a.7924.74bf@mx.google.com> References: <532f5a73.aa86440a.7924.74bf@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Well, it depends on the device. If you get the super fancy ones (which cost a lot more the ten dollars), they may not be so easy because they probably have a screen which you would have to navigate. The cheap one that I have has one switch and a dial. The switch has three positions. All the way to the left is completely off, in the middle plays a concert A (the A above middle C) which string players can use to tune and then all the way to the right plays the metronome. The dial sets the tempo. That’s about it. It’s really easy to use. That’s how most of the cheap ones are. Ryan L. Silveira Corresponding Secretary Ohio Association of Blind Students A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it Means to be Blind” (203) 731-7580 ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Correct. How easy is it to use, not being able to see? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:52:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Yes. You should be able to find one for about $10 at any music store. I would be surprised if they were much more expensive than that. I mean, you just need a cheap little metronome. You don't need anything fancy, right? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll see if we can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:19:22 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Even if you do use YouTube, the recording will not be at the speed you want. Buying one is probably your best bet. They really are very cheap. Something like five dollars. Maybe less. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I would simply recomend buying one if you can. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > No, I only have the Apex. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Hi Marisa, > I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an iPhone? there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad or an iPod touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music store. They are very cheap. > Ryan L. Silveira > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From marissat789 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:39:17 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 15:39:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532f629e.858a440a.6629.70ae@mx.google.com> Wow,=20that=20tuneing=20may=20come=20in=20handy=20for=20band.=20=20Would=20= it?=20And=20do=20 you=20know=20the=20cheapest=20one=20price?=20I=20want=20to=20save=20as=20mu= ch=20of=20my=20 money=20if=20I=20can. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Ryan=20Silveira=20=20 wrote: =20Correct.=20=20How=20easy=20is=20it=20to=20use,=20not=20being=20able=20to= =20see? =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20Hey!=20I=20have=20$12.=20=20When=20I=20go=20out=20with=20my=20friend,=20= this=20week,=20I'll=20 see=20if=20we=20can=20stop=20by=20the=20music=20store.=20=20Is=20that=20whe= re=20it=20is? =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20I=20cannot=20use=20youtube.=20=20The=20site=20I=20use=20to=20convert=20w= ill=20not=20work=20 any=20more=20and=20any=20other=20side=20will=20not=20work=20with=20the=20Ap= ex,=20as=20far=20 as=20i=20know =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Lillie=20Pennington=20=20 wrote: =20No,=20I=20only=20have=20the=20Apex. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20Hey, =20Does=20anyone=20know=20of=20any=20online=20metranomes=20for=20free,=20th= at=20would=20 work=20on=20the=20Apex?=20Or,=20perhaps,=20a=20very=20very=20long=20metrano= me=20 recorded? =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning =20ton%40fuse.net =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei ra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 23:14:54 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:14:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: hello John, I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture classes. As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen to be glind. Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be the most ideal tool for the job. Warm regards, Elizabeth From: "John Sanders" Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM To: Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 23:18:00 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:18:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: hello John, I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture classes. As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be the most ideal tool for the job. Warm regards, Elizabeth hello John, I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture classes. As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be the most ideal tool for the job. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "John Sanders" Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM To: Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Mar 23 23:15:43 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:15:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: His school might remove the binding. My school does so we cannot sell back the books. On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Elizabeth Mohnke wrote: > hello John, > > I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without > providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. > Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you > cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to > scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance > necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math and > science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for > straight lecture classes. > > As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to > receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you > can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to > purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or > check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite > sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen to > be glind. > > Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in > class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access > to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class > notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite > my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do > not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have > to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would > be the most ideal tool for the job. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > From: "John Sanders" > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi all, >> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and >> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >> Why is this required? >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Sun Mar 23 23:25:44 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:25:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: hello Suzanne , I am familiar with the practices of this particular college, and I know they do not remove the binding of the book if they need to scan it. This is why I recommended this course of action for him. however, you are correct that not all colleges do this, so it is always best to speak with your college in regards to whether or not they follow this practice. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Suzanne Germano" Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:15 PM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > His school might remove the binding. My school does so we cannot sell back > the books. > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Elizabeth Mohnke > wrote: > >> hello John, >> >> I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without >> providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. >> Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you >> cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to >> scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance >> necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math >> and >> science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for >> straight lecture classes. >> >> As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to >> receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you >> can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to >> purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, >> or >> check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite >> sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen >> to >> be glind. >> >> Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in >> class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have >> access >> to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class >> notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me >> despite >> my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I >> do >> not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we >> have >> to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think >> would >> be the most ideal tool for the job. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> From: "John Sanders" >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM >> To: >> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> Hi all, >>> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College >>> and >>> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >>> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >>> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >>> Why is this required? >>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>> Sincerely, >>> John Sanders >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Sun Mar 23 23:23:30 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:23:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <532f629e.858a440a.6629.70ae@mx.google.com> References: <532f629e.858a440a.6629.70ae@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I think you would need a concert a flat for band mainly. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Wow, that tuneing may come in handy for band. Would it? And do you know the cheapest one price? I want to save as much of my money if I can. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ryan Silveira To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:33:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Well, it depends on the device. If you get the super fancy ones (which cost a lot more the ten dollars), they may not be so easy because they probably have a screen which you would have to navigate. The cheap one that I have has one switch and a dial. The switch has three positions. All the way to the left is completely off, in the middle plays a concert A (the A above middle C) which string players can use to tune and then all the way to the right plays the metronome. The dial sets the tempo. That’s about it. It’s really easy to use. That’s how most of the cheap ones are. > > > Ryan L. Silveira > Corresponding Secretary > Ohio Association of Blind Students > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it Means to be Blind” > (203) 731-7580 > ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > Correct. How easy is it to use, not being able to see? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:52:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Yes. You should be able to find one for about $10 at any music store. I would be surprised if they were much more expensive than that. I mean, you just need a cheap little metronome. You don't need anything fancy, right? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll see if we can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:19:22 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Even if you do use YouTube, the recording will not be at the speed you want. Buying one is probably your best bet. They really are very cheap. Something like five dollars. Maybe less. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I would simply recomend buying one if you can. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > No, I only have the Apex. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Hi Marisa, > I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an iPhone? there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad or an iPod touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music store. They are very cheap. > Ryan L. Silveira > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From marissat789 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 23:30:25 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:30:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532f6e9b.635e440a.7af5.ffff9800@mx.google.com> I'm=20not=20sure.=20=20My=20teacher=20usually=20has=20us=20do=20a=20concert= =20b-flat=20I=20 think?=20All=20I=20know=20is=20it=20is=20a=20c=20on=20the=20clarinet.=20=20= Either=20way,=20I=20 could=20make=20it=20work. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Lillie=20Pennington=20=20 wrote: =20Wow,=20that=20tuneing=20may=20come=20in=20handy=20for=20band.=20=20Would= =20it?=20And=20do=20 you=20know=20the=20cheapest=20one=20price?=20I=20want=20to=20save=20as=20mu= ch=20of=20my=20 money=20if=20I=20can. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Ryan=20Silveira=20=20 wrote: =20Correct.=20=20How=20easy=20is=20it=20to=20use,=20not=20being=20able=20to= =20see? =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20Hey!=20I=20have=20$12.=20=20When=20I=20go=20out=20with=20my=20friend,=20= this=20week,=20I'll=20 see=20if=20we=20can=20stop=20by=20the=20music=20store.=20=20Is=20that=20whe= re=20it=20is? =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20I=20cannot=20use=20youtube.=20=20The=20site=20I=20use=20to=20convert=20w= ill=20not=20work=20 any=20more=20and=20any=20other=20side=20will=20not=20work=20with=20the=20Ap= ex,=20as=20far=20 as=20i=20know =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Lillie=20Pennington=20=20 wrote: =20No,=20I=20only=20have=20the=20Apex. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20Hey, =20Does=20anyone=20know=20of=20any=20online=20metranomes=20for=20free,=20th= at=20would=20 work=20on=20the=20Apex?=20Or,=20perhaps,=20a=20very=20very=20long=20metrano= me=20 recorded? =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning =20ton%40fuse.net =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From musicproandy at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 23:35:18 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:35:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: References: <532f629e.858a440a.6629.70ae@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Concert B♭ is good for band. Most mets I've seen give you a concert A (440 HZ), the B♭ for band is somewhere around I think 466HZ. Depends which met you get, there's so many different models. A cheap simple one probably would have an adjustable time signature, adjustable tempo, and maybe a few tuning notes. But really, consider investing in an iOS device. There's a free app for iOS called TempoPerfect that has a huge range of tempos, subdivision, and time sigs. The Apex doesn't have any type of SDK (as far as I know), so developing an Apex-specific one is very much out of the question. On 3/23/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > I think you would need a concert a flat for band mainly. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Marissa wrote: >> >> Wow, that tuneing may come in handy for band. Would it? And do you know >> the cheapest one price? I want to save as much of my money if I can. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ryan Silveira > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:33:05 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes >> >> Well, it depends on the device. If you get the super fancy ones (which >> cost a lot more the ten dollars), they may not be so easy because they >> probably have a screen which you would have to navigate. The cheap one >> that I have has one switch and a dial. The switch has three positions. >> All the way to the left is completely off, in the middle plays a concert A >> (the A above middle C) which string players can use to tune and then all >> the way to the right plays the metronome. The dial sets the tempo. >> That’s about it. It’s really easy to use. That’s how most of the cheap >> ones are. >> >> >> Ryan L. Silveira >> Corresponding Secretary >> Ohio Association of Blind Students >> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it >> Means to be Blind” >> (203) 731-7580 >> ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com >> >> On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Marissa wrote: >> >> >> Correct. How easy is it to use, not being able to see? >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ryan L. Silveira" > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:52:33 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes >> >> Yes. You should be able to find one for about $10 at any music store. I >> would be surprised if they were much more expensive than that. I mean, >> you just need a cheap little metronome. You don't need anything fancy, >> right? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 23, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Marissa wrote: >> >> >> Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll see if we >> can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ryan L. Silveira" > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:19:22 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes >> >> Even if you do use YouTube, the recording will not be at the speed you >> want. Buying one is probably your best bet. They really are very cheap. >> Something like five dollars. Maybe less. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Marissa wrote: >> >> >> I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more >> and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Lillie Pennington > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes >> >> Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I would >> simply recomend buying one if you can. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa wrote: >> >> >> No, I only have the Apex. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ryan L. Silveira" > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes >> >> Hi Marisa, >> I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an iPhone? >> there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad or an iPod >> touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music store. They >> are very cheap. >> Ryan L. Silveira >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa wrote: >> >> Hey, >> >> Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the >> Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei >> ra%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning >> ton%40fuse.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei >> ra%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei >> ra%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei >> ra%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Mar 23 23:37:23 2014 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:37:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Elizabeth Yes then it is easy for him to be able to return the books. On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Elizabeth Mohnke wrote: > hello Suzanne , > > I am familiar with the practices of this particular college, and I know > they do not remove the binding of the book if they need to scan it. This is > why I recommended this course of action for him. however, you are correct > that not all colleges do this, so it is always best to speak with your > college in regards to whether or not they follow this practice. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Suzanne Germano" > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:15 PM > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > His school might remove the binding. My school does so we cannot sell back >> the books. >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Elizabeth Mohnke > >wrote: >> >> hello John, >>> >>> I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without >>> providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. >>> Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you >>> cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to >>> scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance >>> necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math >>> and >>> science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for >>> straight lecture classes. >>> >>> As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to >>> receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you >>> can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to >>> purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, >>> or >>> check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite >>> sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen >>> to >>> be glind. >>> >>> Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in >>> class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have >>> access >>> to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class >>> notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me >>> despite >>> my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I >>> do >>> not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we >>> have >>> to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think >>> would >>> be the most ideal tool for the job. >>> >>> Warm regards, >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>> From: "John Sanders" >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM >>> To: >>> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>>> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College >>>> and >>>> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >>>> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >>>> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >>>> Why is this required? >>>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>>> Sincerely, >>>> John Sanders >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From marissat789 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 23:43:10 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:43:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532f7197.045c440a.695c.ffff8c97@mx.google.com> You=20are=20correct=20on=20the=20Apex=20thing.=20=20Thing=20is=20horrable,= =20but=20the=20 only=20thing=20I=20have.=20=20I=20do=20not=20have=20money=20for=20an=20IOS= =20device.=20=20I=20 think=20my=20TVI=20was=20putting=20in=20an=20order=20for=20the=20visually=20= impared=20 kids=20in=20my=20district=20to=20get=20an=20i-pad,=20but=20that=20was=20a=20= long=20time=20 ago. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Andy=20=20wrote: =20I=20think=20you=20would=20need=20a=20concert=20a=20flat=20for=20band=20m= ainly. =20Sent=20from=20my=20iPhone =20On=20Mar=2023,=202014,=20at=206:39=20PM,=20Marissa=20=20 wrote: =20Wow,=20that=20tuneing=20may=20come=20in=20handy=20for=20band.=20=20Would= =20it?=20And=20do=20 you=20know =20the=20cheapest=20one=20price?=20I=20want=20to=20save=20as=20much=20of=20= my=20money=20if=20I=20 can. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Ryan=20Silveira=20=20 wrote: =20Correct.=20=20How=20easy=20is=20it=20to=20use,=20not=20being=20able=20to= =20see? =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20Hey!=20I=20have=20$12.=20=20When=20I=20go=20out=20with=20my=20friend,=20= this=20week,=20I'll=20 see=20if=20we =20can=20stop=20by=20the=20music=20store.=20=20Is=20that=20where=20it=20is?= =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20I=20cannot=20use=20youtube.=20=20The=20site=20I=20use=20to=20convert=20w= ill=20not=20work=20 any=20more =20and=20any=20other=20side=20will=20not=20work=20with=20the=20Apex,=20as=20= far=20as=20i=20know =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Lillie=20Pennington=20=20 wrote: =20No,=20I=20only=20have=20the=20Apex. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20Hey, =20Does=20anyone=20know=20of=20any=20online=20metranomes=20for=20free,=20th= at=20would=20 work=20on=20the =20Apex?=20Or,=20perhaps,=20a=20very=20very=20long=20metranome=20recorded? =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning =20ton%40fuse.net =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for =20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy% 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From sandersj6 at att.net Sun Mar 23 23:44:49 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:44:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Hi, The classes that I'm taking, Student Development 090 and Reading 150 require a lot of reading. The Student Development class especially requires a lot of reading and writing. The instructer is giving me a lot of assignment that are in print. The instructer did tell me that for the Student Development 090 class, I would require a reader. She had advised me that she would be in contact with Office of Disability Supportive Services. I go back to school tomorrow. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Mohnke Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question hello John, I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture classes. As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be the most ideal tool for the job. Warm regards, Elizabeth hello John, I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture classes. As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be the most ideal tool for the job. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "John Sanders" Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM To: Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > Hi all, > I have a question: I’m currently attending Lansing Community College and > the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to > have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I > need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. > Why is this required? > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 23:48:22 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:48:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Hi John, Could you ask your instructor to email you the assignments? She might not be able to email you the readings if they come from a course pack, but she should be able to send you the assignments. Also, if there are any public scanners at the college disability office, you can scan the printed assignments. Best, Arielle On 3/23/14, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > The classes that I'm taking, Student Development 090 and Reading 150 require > a lot of reading. > The Student Development class especially requires a lot of reading and > writing. > The instructer is giving me a lot of assignment that are in print. > The instructer did tell me that for the Student Development 090 class, I > would require a reader. > She had advised me that she would be in contact with Office of Disability > Supportive Services. > I go back to school tomorrow. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth Mohnke > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > hello John, > > I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without > providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. > Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you cannot > receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling > conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is when > doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. > Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture > classes. > > As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to receive > them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can re-sell > your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your > books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them out > in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you are > expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. > > Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in class > regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at > your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes > for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my > poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do not > see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to > make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be > the most ideal tool for the job. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > hello John, > > I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without > providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. > Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you cannot > receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling > conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is when > doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. > Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture > classes. > > As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to receive > them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can re-sell > your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your > books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them out > in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you are > expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. > > Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in class > regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at > your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes > for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my > poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do not > see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to > make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be > the most ideal tool for the job. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "John Sanders" > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > >> Hi all, >> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and >> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >> Why is this required? >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From musicproandy at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 23:49:22 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:49:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <532f7197.045c440a.695c.ffff8c97@mx.google.com> References: <532f7197.045c440a.695c.ffff8c97@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Well, then, I would suggest going to Sam Ash or any similar music store. Metronomes are quite cheap. On 3/23/14, Marissa wrote: > You are correct on the Apex thing. Thing is horrable, but the > only thing I have. I do not have money for an IOS device. I > think my TVI was putting in an order for the visually impared > kids in my district to get an i-pad, but that was a long time > ago. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Andy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:35:18 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Concert B♭ is good for band. Most mets I've seen give you a > concert A > (440 HZ), the B♭ for band is somewhere around I think 466HZ. > Depends > which met you get, there's so many different models. > > A cheap simple one probably would have an adjustable time > signature, > adjustable tempo, and maybe a few tuning notes. > > But really, consider investing in an iOS device. There's a free > app > for iOS called TempoPerfect that has a huge range of tempos, > subdivision, and time sigs. The Apex doesn't have any type of > SDK (as > far as I know), so developing an Apex-specific one is very much > out of > the question. > > On 3/23/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > I think you would need a concert a flat for band mainly. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > Wow, that tuneing may come in handy for band. Would it? And do > you know > the cheapest one price? I want to save as much of my money if I > can. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ryan Silveira To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:33:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Well, it depends on the device. If you get the super fancy ones > (which > cost a lot more the ten dollars), they may not be so easy > because they > probably have a screen which you would have to navigate. The > cheap one > that I have has one switch and a dial. The switch has three > positions. > All the way to the left is completely off, in the middle plays a > concert A > (the A above middle C) which string players can use to tune and > then all > the way to the right plays the metronome. The dial sets the > tempo. > That’s about it. It’s really easy to use. That’s how > most of the cheap > ones are. > > > Ryan L. Silveira > Corresponding Secretary > Ohio Association of Blind Students > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing > What it > Means to be Blind” > (203) 731-7580 > ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > > Correct. How easy is it to use, not being able to see? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:52:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Yes. You should be able to find one for about $10 at any music > store. I > would be surprised if they were much more expensive than that. > I mean, > you just need a cheap little metronome. You don't need anything > fancy, > right? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > > Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll > see if we > can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:19:22 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Even if you do use YouTube, the recording will not be at the > speed you > want. Buying one is probably your best bet. They really are > very cheap. > Something like five dollars. Maybe less. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > > I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work > any more > and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I > would > simply recomend buying one if you can. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > > No, I only have the Apex. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Hi Marisa, > I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an > iPhone? > there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad > or an iPod > touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music > store. They > are very cheap. > Ryan L. Silveira > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would > work on the > Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/musicproandy% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > > From marissat789 at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 00:05:57 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:05:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532f76ed.4387440a.099e.ffff9031@mx.google.com> I=20don't=20know=20my=20neighboorhood,=20so=20wouldn't=20know=20anything=20= about=20 that =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Andy=20=20wrote: =20You=20are=20correct=20on=20the=20Apex=20thing.=20=20Thing=20is=20horrabl= e,=20but=20the =20only=20thing=20I=20have.=20=20I=20do=20not=20have=20money=20for=20an=20I= OS=20device.=20=20I =20think=20my=20TVI=20was=20putting=20in=20an=20order=20for=20the=20visuall= y=20impared =20kids=20in=20my=20district=20to=20get=20an=20i-pad,=20but=20that=20was=20= a=20long=20time =20ago. =20=20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Andy=20=20wrot= e: =20=20I=20think=20you=20would=20need=20a=20concert=20a=20flat=20for=20band= =20mainly. =20=20Sent=20from=20my=20iPhone =20=20On=20Mar=2023,=202014,=20at=206:39=20PM,=20Marissa=20 References: <532f6e9b.635e440a.7af5.ffff9800@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <12C23D2A-5F6F-4144-9D0E-003A9D6A2788@fuse.net> Your right. I made a typo. I'm embarrassed now. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2014, at 7:30 PM, Marissa wrote: > > I'm not sure. My teacher usually has us do a concert b-flat I think? All I know is it is a c on the clarinet. Either way, I could make it work. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:23:30 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > I think you would need a concert a flat for band mainly. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Wow, that tuneing may come in handy for band. Would it? And do you know the cheapest one price? I want to save as much of my money if I can. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ryan Silveira To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:33:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Well, it depends on the device. If you get the super fancy ones (which cost a lot more the ten dollars), they may not be so easy because they probably have a screen which you would have to navigate. The cheap one that I have has one switch and a dial. The switch has three positions. All the way to the left is completely off, in the middle plays a concert A (the A above middle C) which string players can use to tune and then all the way to the right plays the metronome. The dial sets the tempo. That’s about it. It’s really easy to use. That’s how most of the cheap ones are. > > > Ryan L. Silveira > Corresponding Secretary > Ohio Association of Blind Students > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it Means to be Blind” > (203) 731-7580 > ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > Correct. How easy is it to use, not being able to see? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:52:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Yes. You should be able to find one for about $10 at any music store. I would be surprised if they were much more expensive than that. I mean, you just need a cheap little metronome. You don't need anything fancy, right? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll see if we can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:19:22 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Even if you do use YouTube, the recording will not be at the speed you want. Buying one is probably your best bet. They really are very cheap. Something like five dollars. Maybe less. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far as i know > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I would simply recomend buying one if you can. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > No, I only have the Apex. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Hi Marisa, > I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an iPhone? there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, and iPad or an iPod touch. You can also buy digital metronomes from any music store. They are very cheap. > Ryan L. Silveira > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From marissat789 at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 00:28:01 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:28:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <532f7c1a.2ac5440a.7d65.ffffa483@mx.google.com> O,=20it's=20fine.=20=20No=20worries.=20=20So=20the=20metranome=20wouldn't=20= match=20the=20 concert=20pitch? =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- From:=20Lillie=20Pennington=20=20 wrote: =20I'm=20not=20sure.=20=20My=20teacher=20usually=20has=20us=20do=20a=20conc= ert=20b-flat=20I=20 think?=20All=20I=20know=20is=20it=20is=20a=20c=20on=20the=20clarinet.=20=20= Either=20way,=20I=20 could=20make=20it=20work. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Lillie=20Pennington=20=20 wrote: =20Wow,=20that=20tuneing=20may=20come=20in=20handy=20for=20band.=20=20Would= =20it?=20And=20do=20 you=20know=20the=20cheapest=20one=20price?=20I=20want=20to=20save=20as=20mu= ch=20of=20my=20 money=20if=20I=20can. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Ryan=20Silveira=20=20 wrote: =20Correct.=20=20How=20easy=20is=20it=20to=20use,=20not=20being=20able=20to= =20see? =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20Hey!=20I=20have=20$12.=20=20When=20I=20go=20out=20with=20my=20friend,=20= this=20week,=20I'll=20 see=20if=20we=20can=20stop=20by=20the=20music=20store.=20=20Is=20that=20whe= re=20it=20is? =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20I=20cannot=20use=20youtube.=20=20The=20site=20I=20use=20to=20convert=20w= ill=20not=20work=20 any=20more=20and=20any=20other=20side=20will=20not=20work=20with=20the=20Ap= ex,=20as=20far=20 as=20i=20know =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20Lillie=20Pennington=20=20 wrote: =20No,=20I=20only=20have=20the=20Apex. =20-----=20Original=20Message=20----- =20From:=20"Ryan=20L.=20=20Silveira"=20=20 wrote: =20Hey, =20Does=20anyone=20know=20of=20any=20online=20metranomes=20for=20free,=20th= at=20would=20 work=20on=20the=20Apex?=20Or,=20perhaps,=20a=20very=20very=20long=20metrano= me=20 recorded? =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning =20ton%40fuse.net =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei =20ra%40gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning =20ton%40fuse.net =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 =200gmail.com =20_______________________________________________ =20nabs-l=20mailing=20list =20nabs-l at nfbnet.org =20http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org =20To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20a= ccount=20 info=20for=20nabs-l: =20 http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l=20mailing=20list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To=20unsubscribe,=20change=20your=20list=20options=20or=20get=20your=20acco= unt=20info=20 for=20nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From musicproandy at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 00:29:59 2014 From: musicproandy at gmail.com (Andy) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 20:29:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <532f7c1a.2ac5440a.7d65.ffffa483@mx.google.com> References: <532f7c1a.2ac5440a.7d65.ffffa483@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Depends on which met you get. Some have adjustable tunings, others do not. On 3/23/14, Marissa wrote: > > O, it's fine. No worries. So the metranome wouldn't match the > concert pitch? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 20:17:56 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Your right. I made a typo. I'm embarrassed now. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 7:30 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > I'm not sure. My teacher usually has us do a concert b-flat I > think? All I know is it is a c on the clarinet. Either way, I > could make it work. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:23:30 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > I think you would need a concert a flat for band mainly. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > Wow, that tuneing may come in handy for band. Would it? And do > you know the cheapest one price? I want to save as much of my > money if I can. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ryan Silveira To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:33:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Well, it depends on the device. If you get the super fancy ones > (which cost a lot more the ten dollars), they may not be so easy > because they probably have a screen which you would have to > navigate. The cheap one that I have has one switch and a dial. > The switch has three positions. All the way to the left is > completely off, in the middle plays a concert A (the A above > middle C) which string players can use to tune and then all the > way to the right plays the metronome. The dial sets the tempo. > That's about it. It's really easy to use. That's how most > of the cheap ones are. > > > Ryan L. Silveira > Corresponding Secretary > Ohio Association of Blind Students > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, "Changing > What it Means to be Blind" > (203) 731-7580 > ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 6:04 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > > Correct. How easy is it to use, not being able to see? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 17:52:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Yes. You should be able to find one for about $10 at any music > store. I would be surprised if they were much more expensive > than that. I mean, you just need a cheap little metronome. You > don't need anything fancy, right? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > > Hey! I have $12. When I go out with my friend, this week, I'll > see if we can stop by the music store. Is that where it is? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:19:22 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Even if you do use YouTube, the recording will not be at the > speed you want. Buying one is probably your best bet. They > really are very cheap. Something like five dollars. Maybe less. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:12 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > > I cannot use youtube. The site I use to convert will not work > any more and any other side will not work with the Apex, as far > as i know > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 14:00:32 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Have you checked YouTube? They may have a recording. However, I > would simply recomend buying one if you can. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > > No, I only have the Apex. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ryan L. Silveira" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:39:05 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes > > Hi Marisa, > I don't know of any that would work on the apex. Do you have an > iPhone? there are several apps that would work with an iPhone, > and iPad or an iPod touch. You can also buy digital metronomes > from any music store. They are very cheap. > Ryan L. Silveira > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 8:43 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > Hey, > > Does anyone know of any online metranomes for free, that would > work on the Apex? Or, perhaps, a very very long metranome > recorded? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silvei > ra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 > 0gmail.com > > > From sandersj6 at att.net Mon Mar 24 00:33:20 2014 From: sandersj6 at att.net (John Sanders) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 20:33:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question In-Reply-To: References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: <0BFEA6B03AD74E42B9A293A40829AB0C@JohnSandersPC> Hi, One of the buildings on the campus is being remodeled so the disability office has moved there services in to another building. The support services center at this time doesn't have a scanner to scan my documents. I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, John Sanders -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question Hi John, Could you ask your instructor to email you the assignments? She might not be able to email you the readings if they come from a course pack, but she should be able to send you the assignments. Also, if there are any public scanners at the college disability office, you can scan the printed assignments. Best, Arielle On 3/23/14, John Sanders wrote: > Hi, > The classes that I'm taking, Student Development 090 and Reading 150 > require > a lot of reading. > The Student Development class especially requires a lot of reading and > writing. > The instructer is giving me a lot of assignment that are in print. > The instructer did tell me that for the Student Development 090 class, I > would require a reader. > She had advised me that she would be in contact with Office of Disability > Supportive Services. > I go back to school tomorrow. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elizabeth Mohnke > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > hello John, > > I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without > providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. > Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you > cannot > receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling > conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is > when > doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. > Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture > classes. > > As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to > receive > them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can > re-sell > your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your > books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them > out > in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you > are > expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. > > Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in > class > regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at > your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes > for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my > poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do > not > see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to > make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be > the most ideal tool for the job. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > hello John, > > I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without > providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. > Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you > cannot > receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling > conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is > when > doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science classes. > Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture > classes. > > As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to > receive > them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can > re-sell > your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase your > books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them > out > in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you > are > expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. > > Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in > class > regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to at > your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes > for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my > poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do > not > see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to > make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would be > the most ideal tool for the job. > > Warm regards, > Elizabeth > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "John Sanders" > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > >> Hi all, >> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College and >> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >> Why is this required? >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 00:50:40 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 20:50:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] For Marissa Message-ID: <005701cf46fb$14b90880$3e2b1980$@gmail.com> Marissa, Here's an accessible Youtube site that may work with your Apex: http://tube.majestyc.net/ -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog From marissat789 at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 01:36:27 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:36:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] For Marissa Message-ID: <532f8c24.82e6440a.3678.ffffb34c@mx.google.com> Unfortunately, it didn't work. The Apex cannot view video. If it was just audio only, like mp3 or wav, or something like that, it would work. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> <0BFEA6B03AD74E42B9A293A40829AB0C@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: Hello John, Have you tried the library or the computer lab? Perhaps they might have a scanner you could use to scan your printed assignments. Again, sometimes it is about using the tools available to you and not necessarily the tools you would like to use. I believe it is best to explore as many possibilities as possible to find the one that will work the best in your particular situation. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "John Sanders" Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 8:33 PM To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > Hi, > One of the buildings on the campus is being remodeled so the disability > office has moved there services in to another building. > The support services center at this time doesn't have a scanner to scan my > documents. > I hope to hear from you soon. > Sincerely, > John Sanders > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > > Hi John, > > Could you ask your instructor to email you the assignments? She might > not be able to email you the readings if they come from a course pack, > but she should be able to send you the assignments. Also, if there are > any public scanners at the college disability office, you can scan the > printed assignments. > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/23/14, John Sanders wrote: >> Hi, >> The classes that I'm taking, Student Development 090 and Reading 150 >> require >> a lot of reading. >> The Student Development class especially requires a lot of reading and >> writing. >> The instructer is giving me a lot of assignment that are in print. >> The instructer did tell me that for the Student Development 090 class, I >> would require a reader. >> She had advised me that she would be in contact with Office of Disability >> Supportive Services. >> I go back to school tomorrow. >> I hope to hear from you soon. >> Sincerely, >> John Sanders >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Elizabeth Mohnke >> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> hello John, >> >> I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without >> providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. >> Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you >> cannot >> receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling >> conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is >> when >> doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science >> classes. >> Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture >> classes. >> >> As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to >> receive >> them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can >> re-sell >> your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase >> your >> books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them >> out >> in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you >> are >> expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. >> >> Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in >> class >> regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to >> at >> your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes >> for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my >> poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do >> not >> see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to >> make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would >> be >> the most ideal tool for the job. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> hello John, >> >> I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without >> providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. >> Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you >> cannot >> receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to scheduling >> conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance necessary is >> when >> doing peer review for writing classes along with math and science >> classes. >> Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for straight lecture >> classes. >> >> As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to >> receive >> them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you can >> re-sell >> your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to purchase >> your >> books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, or check them >> out >> in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite sure why you >> are >> expecting something for free simply because you happen to be blind. >> >> Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in >> class >> regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have access to >> at >> your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class notes >> for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me despite my >> poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I do >> not >> see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we have to >> make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think would >> be >> the most ideal tool for the job. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "John Sanders" >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM >> To: >> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >>> Hi all, >>> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College >>> and >>> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >>> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >>> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >>> Why is this required? >>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>> Sincerely, >>> John Sanders >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandersj6%40att.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 12:34:27 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:34:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] For Marissa In-Reply-To: <005701cf46fb$14b90880$3e2b1980$@gmail.com> References: <005701cf46fb$14b90880$3e2b1980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Unless this Web site will convert a YouTube video to an audio format (MP3, WAV, etc) or a WMV file, I don't think it will work on the Apex. The Apex currently has no support for Flash Player. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2014, at 8:50 PM, "Joe" wrote: > > Marissa, > > > > Here's an accessible Youtube site that may work with your Apex: > > > > http://tube.majestyc.net/ > > > > -- > > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > > > Visit my blog: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 12:34:27 2014 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (Chris Nusbaum) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:34:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] For Marissa In-Reply-To: <005701cf46fb$14b90880$3e2b1980$@gmail.com> References: <005701cf46fb$14b90880$3e2b1980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Unless this Web site will convert a YouTube video to an audio format (MP3, WAV, etc) or a WMV file, I don't think it will work on the Apex. The Apex currently has no support for Flash Player. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2014, at 8:50 PM, "Joe" wrote: > > Marissa, > > > > Here's an accessible Youtube site that may work with your Apex: > > > > http://tube.majestyc.net/ > > > > -- > > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > > > Visit my blog: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 20:04:01 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 16:04:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] History Project Message-ID: Hello all, The National Association of Blind Students History Project is officially underway. The committee met on Saturday night, and here is what we have come up with as goals for the future. Here are the highlights. O We want to ultimately complete a written history of the student division, modeled closely after Walking Alone Marching Together. O To do this, we will collect information through interviews. We will start with those who were around to see the events which led up to the student division's formation and its early years unfold, then work our way into the 21st century. O We may also publish particularly interesting interviews in publications such as the Braille Monitor, Future Reflections, and the Student Slate as relevant. O The project will last for an indeterminant amount of time. OUr interest is to produce high quality historical information, so at least for the foreseeable future there will never a be a time where it is too late to join us. If you are interested in joining, stay tuned for April meeting details. O Thank you to the wonderful people who chartered this committee with me, and who enthusiastically took interview assignments. You are awesome people, and I think we're off to a great start. Stay tuned for details about April's meeting. -- Kaiti From ligne14 at verizon.net Mon Mar 24 23:08:27 2014 From: ligne14 at verizon.net (sami osborne) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 19:08:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes Message-ID: <0N2Y00JKEQZ8Q030@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Hi All. Yes, as has been mentioned, there are a wide range of metronome apps available for the Ios platform. I, myself, have an app called Metronome Plus, which I'm not sure, but I think I heard that it's the most accessible with Voiceover. Another thing, even though I'm a musician, I don't quite get what you guys mean by "concert notes" (I don'tthink my piano teacher mentioned anything about that). Therefore, could you explain a little more, please? I would re'ally appreciate it. Marrisa, I don't want to be rude and I'm sorry if I'm going off-topic. But have you ever heard of the expression "when there's a will, there's a way"? In other words, you have your will, which is to have a metronome. Well, there are many ways you can get one. We have proposed several ways to get a metronome; but you don't seem to want to take any of our suggestions into account. I'm not saying this in a rude way. I'm simply saying that you have a response to everything saying that you don't want to do any of them. Just because you don't have an Ios device, that does not exclude you from getting a metronome, and just because you currently don't have enough money to buy an Ios device, that does not exclude you from getting one. If your TVI proposed to get an Ipad for the visually impaired children in your district, well, chances are he or she might have forgotten. Try to ask him or her if they're still working on that project, or ask how it is coming along. However, your TVI is of course not the only way you can get an Ipad. At your next IEP meeting, you can ask if it's possible to get an Ipad is possible. Or, you can ask your family members or friends to get you an Ios device on your next birthday or something. Now about buying your own metronome at a music store. I admit, I'm a little confused with 2 of your messages. In the first message, you have said that you'll be going out with your friends and you'll try to go to the music store, but later on you said that you can't go to the music store because you don't know the way around your neighborhood. I therefore don't know which one is true. And even if you are going out with your friends, you can still work on that not knowing your way around your neighborhood issue. You can apply for mobility services at home, or if you don't want to do that, you can go for walks around your neighborhood with your parents, guardian or whoever you live with, or even your friends. So you see, everything is possible. You are absolutely not blocked from getting a metronome. And yes, you're right, there is no metronome for the Apex, as far as I know. By the way, speaking of the Apex, I'd really like to know what you find "horrible about it"? I don't find anything horrible about it except that it sometimes freezes when you're working. If there's anything that I can do to help, just let me know. My appologies for the long message, and with the hope that you'll take my comments as constructive advice and not as criticism, Sami. ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy wrote: O, it's fine. No worries. So the metranome wouldn't match the concert pitch? ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington Hi everyone In my Spanish 3 class, we have listening homework that is due every two weeks or so. The options are mostly very tedious or inaccessible. I was doing online textbook work with sited assistance for reading the screen until my teacher stopped putting assignments on that site as an option. I believe her reason for not doing this was because she did not have time, or that is what she said for one chapter when they were not up there. I took advantage of a new assignment that was available as an option. It was watching a youtube video made by students in her class last year. The video then had some comprehension questions on a timed quiz in Spanish which someone would read to me. However, the questions mainly had some visual concepts. Such as what item was not in a persons suitcase. My mother had some issues seeing the video picture and I was providing the best translations of the video that I could in English. It is difficult to rely on someones descriptions of something that I can not see. I had 15 seconds left on the quiz by the time I was finished with it. I do not know what to do. I am not sure if this is significant enough to email my teacher about. I am not sure what I can really ask my teacher to do. My TVI will be no help in this situation. Should I just take the grade and suck it up? I am not asking to get out of the assignment. I am just asking for questions that require the person to pay attention to the video. For example, instead of what did Trevor pack in his suitcase, something like where did the boys agree to meet at 7:00. Is this an appropriate request? Thank you From lilliepennington at fuse.net Tue Mar 25 01:48:53 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 21:48:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] looking for an app Message-ID: <01bb01cf47cc$60d9f130$228dd390$@net> Hi everyone I apologize for multiple emails, but I felt that the two subjects were enough to separate into multiple requests. I am looking for an app on either the iPhone or iPad that will allow me to input appointments that are ongoing such as a meeting on every third Friday of the month. I want it to be able to remind me that I have the meetings/appointments a week, two days, and two times during the day of the appointment, preferably via text but I could do a push notification. Will the regular calendar app do this? Thanks for the help. From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 02:07:03 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan Silveira) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:07:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] looking for an app In-Reply-To: <01bb01cf47cc$60d9f130$228dd390$@net> References: <01bb01cf47cc$60d9f130$228dd390$@net> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, There is no app that I know of that will allow you to schedule meetings specifically for the third Friday of every month (like our OABS meetings). You can, however, create recurring appointments that happen on the same day or date. For example, if you have an event that happens every Friday or on the 24th of every month using the iPhone calendar. Hope this helps. Ryan L. Silveira Corresponding Secretary Ohio Association of Blind Students A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it Means to be Blind” (203) 731-7580 ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com On Mar 24, 2014, at 9:48 PM, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi everyone > > I apologize for multiple emails, but I felt that the two subjects were > enough to separate into multiple requests. I am looking for an app on either > the iPhone or iPad that will allow me to input appointments that are ongoing > such as a meeting on every third Friday of the month. I want it to be able > to remind me that I have the meetings/appointments a week, two days, and two > times during the day of the appointment, preferably via text but I could do > a push notification. Will the regular calendar app do this? > > Thanks for the help. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 02:10:00 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:10:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a spanish assignment In-Reply-To: <01b601cf47cb$df1b8690$9d5293b0$@net> References: <01b601cf47cb$df1b8690$9d5293b0$@net> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, I'm not sure what the other options are for assignments, but it seems like the teacher should be able to give you one that's accessible. Perhaps she could send you a file for one of the web-based assignments that's not accessible, or create a separate assignment for you. It's listening you're being tested on, so that doesn't have to be visual at all. I'd suggest either emailing your teacher or talking to her in person (or both) to see what the two of you can come up with. You can definitely agree on an assignment that's equivalent in terms of difficulty and stuff being tested on, but that doesn't include the visual questions or the inaccessible online quizzes. Best, Arielle On 3/24/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi everyone > > In my Spanish 3 class, we have listening homework that is due every two > weeks or so. The options are mostly very tedious or inaccessible. I was > doing online textbook work with sited assistance for reading the screen > until my teacher stopped putting assignments on that site as an option. I > believe her reason for not doing this was because she did not have time, or > that is what she said for one chapter when they were not up there. I took > advantage of a new assignment that was available as an option. It was > watching a youtube video made by students in her class last year. The video > then had some comprehension questions on a timed quiz in Spanish which > someone would read to me. > > However, the questions mainly had some visual concepts. Such as what item > was not in a persons suitcase. My mother had some issues seeing the video > picture and I was providing the best translations of the video that I could > in English. > > It is difficult to rely on someones descriptions of something that I can > not > see. I had 15 seconds left on the quiz by the time I was finished with it. > > I do not know what to do. I am not sure if this is significant enough to > email my teacher about. I am not sure what I can really ask my teacher to > do. My TVI will be no help in this situation. Should I just take the grade > and suck it up? I am not asking to get out of the assignment. I am just > asking for questions that require the person to pay attention to the video. > For example, instead of what did Trevor pack in his suitcase, something > like > where did the boys agree to meet at 7:00. Is this an appropriate request? > > Thank you > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Tue Mar 25 03:03:56 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:03:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Musical metrinomes In-Reply-To: <0N2Y00JKEQZ8Q030@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0N2Y00JKEQZ8Q030@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <807ABDBB-7B1B-4E52-8084-21754B1609D3@fuse.net> Concert notes that are used as the standard for all musicians. However, band instruments are a step above concert concert pitch. So concert b flat requires band instruments to play a c. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 24, 2014, at 7:08 PM, sami osborne wrote: > > Hi All. > > Yes, as has been mentioned, there are a wide range of metronome apps available for the Ios platform. I, myself, have an app called Metronome Plus, which I'm not sure, but I think I heard that it's the most accessible with Voiceover. > Another thing, even though I'm a musician, I don't quite get what you guys mean by "concert notes" (I don'tthink my piano teacher mentioned anything about that). Therefore, could you explain a little more, please? I would re'ally appreciate it. > > Marrisa, I don't want to be rude and I'm sorry if I'm going off-topic. But have you ever heard of the expression "when there's a will, there's a way"? > In other words, you have your will, which is to have a metronome. Well, there are many ways you can get one. We have proposed several ways to get a metronome; but you don't seem to want to take any of our suggestions into account. > I'm not saying this in a rude way. I'm simply saying that you have a response to everything saying that you don't want to do any of them. > Just because you don't have an Ios device, that does not exclude you from getting a metronome, and just because you > currently don't have enough money to buy an Ios device, that does not exclude you from getting one. > If your TVI proposed to get an Ipad for the visually impaired children in your district, well, chances are he or she might have forgotten. Try to ask him or her if they're still working on that project, or ask how it is coming along. > However, your TVI is of course not the only way you can get an Ipad. At your next IEP meeting, you can ask if it's possible to get an Ipad is possible. > Or, you can ask your family members or friends to get you an Ios device on your next birthday or something. > > Now about buying your own metronome at a music store. I admit, I'm a little confused with 2 of your messages. In the first message, you have said that you'll be going out with your friends and you'll try to go to the music store, but later on you said that you can't go to the music store because you don't know the From lilliepennington at fuse.net Tue Mar 25 03:05:00 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:05:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a spanish assignment In-Reply-To: References: <01b601cf47cb$df1b8690$9d5293b0$@net> Message-ID: Thank you. I will talk to my teacher and see what I can do. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 24, 2014, at 10:10 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > > I'm not sure what the other options are for assignments, but it seems > like the teacher should be able to give you one that's accessible. > Perhaps she could send you a file for one of the web-based assignments > that's not accessible, or create a separate assignment for you. It's > listening you're being tested on, so that doesn't have to be visual at > all. I'd suggest either emailing your teacher or talking to her in > person (or both) to see what the two of you can come up with. You can > definitely agree on an assignment that's equivalent in terms of > difficulty and stuff being tested on, but that doesn't include the > visual questions or the inaccessible online quizzes. > > Best, > Arielle > >> On 3/24/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> Hi everyone >> >> In my Spanish 3 class, we have listening homework that is due every two >> weeks or so. The options are mostly very tedious or inaccessible. I was >> doing online textbook work with sited assistance for reading the screen >> until my teacher stopped putting assignments on that site as an option. I >> believe her reason for not doing this was because she did not have time, or >> that is what she said for one chapter when they were not up there. I took >> advantage of a new assignment that was available as an option. It was >> watching a youtube video made by students in her class last year. The video >> then had some comprehension questions on a timed quiz in Spanish which >> someone would read to me. >> >> However, the questions mainly had some visual concepts. Such as what item >> was not in a persons suitcase. My mother had some issues seeing the video >> picture and I was providing the best translations of the video that I could >> in English. >> >> It is difficult to rely on someones descriptions of something that I can >> not >> see. I had 15 seconds left on the quiz by the time I was finished with it. >> >> I do not know what to do. I am not sure if this is significant enough to >> email my teacher about. I am not sure what I can really ask my teacher to >> do. My TVI will be no help in this situation. Should I just take the grade >> and suck it up? I am not asking to get out of the assignment. I am just >> asking for questions that require the person to pay attention to the video. >> For example, instead of what did Trevor pack in his suitcase, something >> like >> where did the boys agree to meet at 7:00. Is this an appropriate request? >> >> Thank you >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From filerime at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 03:05:00 2014 From: filerime at gmail.com (Elif Emir) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:05:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Kindle Application In-Reply-To: <4C360C1FAC594973A5AA09507FE0A09F@HP30910210001> References: <02FD3BC9-AC7A-400C-9027-C4A60123C509@gmail.com> <4C360C1FAC594973A5AA09507FE0A09F@HP30910210001> Message-ID: Thank you all, especially Bryan It's working now. Although I don't like it a lot, it's reading. I can't go to the page that I want. Do you know a way for it? Thanks again Elif 2014-03-22 21:29 GMT-04:00, melissa R Green : > there is a kinddle for PC. You have to search for it on amazon. > Have a blessed day. > Best Wishes > Melissa R. Green and Pj > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Nusbaum" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Kindle Application > > > Unfortunately, the Kindle app is only accessible on iOS devices at this > time. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Elif Emir wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I did set up the kindle application on my Microsoft computer, and then >> downloaded a book from Amazon; however, I can't read it with my jaws. >> Is the kindle application only accessible on Apple devices? >> Is there a way that I can access my kindle book on my Microsoft >> Windows computer? >> Thanks >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/filerime%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Tue Mar 25 03:06:14 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:06:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] looking for an app In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01cf47cc$60d9f130$228dd390$@net> Message-ID: Thanks. I will try to come up with a good solution. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 24, 2014, at 10:07 PM, Ryan Silveira wrote: > > Hi Lillie, > > There is no app that I know of that will allow you to schedule meetings specifically for the third Friday of every month (like our OABS meetings). You can, however, create recurring appointments that happen on the same day or date. For example, if you have an event that happens every Friday or on the 24th of every month using the iPhone calendar. Hope this helps. > > > Ryan L. Silveira > Corresponding Secretary > Ohio Association of Blind Students > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it Means to be Blind” > (203) 731-7580 > ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com > >> On Mar 24, 2014, at 9:48 PM, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> >> Hi everyone >> >> I apologize for multiple emails, but I felt that the two subjects were >> enough to separate into multiple requests. I am looking for an app on either >> the iPhone or iPad that will allow me to input appointments that are ongoing >> such as a meeting on every third Friday of the month. I want it to be able >> to remind me that I have the meetings/appointments a week, two days, and two >> times during the day of the appointment, preferably via text but I could do >> a push notification. Will the regular calendar app do this? >> >> Thanks for the help. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From dandrews at visi.com Tue Mar 25 03:32:57 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:32:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] What is New at Duxbury Systems? Message-ID: >From: "Anne Ronco" >Subject: [duxnews] What is New at Duxbury Systems? >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:25:23 -0400 > >What is new at Duxbury Systems (three announcements): > >1) We have issued a minor service release DBT 11.2 SR1 > >Here is the list of updates and corrections: > * The activation wizard has been updated to fix a problem when > using a custom installation in a drive other than C. > * Embossing on all Braillo non-sideways embossers is improved. > (That is all Braillo embosser models without "sw" or "stitch and > fold" in their model names.) > * The JAWS script has been updated. > * Corrected the handling of the symbol right harpoon over left > harpoon (used in Chemical equations) in file imports. > * Languages: Cantonese (Yue) print-to-braille has been > significantly improved, and we have added a new braille-to print > translator for Cantonese. >Those ishing more information about DBT 11.2 or DBT 11.2 SR1 should >see this web page: >http://www.duxburysystems.com/dbt_new.asp > >------- > >2) We have issued NimPro 1.2 (the previous version was NimPro 1.1) > >Here is the list of updates and corrections: > * Complete support for network activation, not just independent > activation. > * Works smoothly with a remotely activated DBT. > * Support for custom installations on any drive, not just the > default drive (C:). > * Improved output of italic (emphasized) text when exporting > .dxp files for DBT. > * Improvements to background image processing and display, with > better handling of images with bad data. > * In the NimPro display, the old "word count" has been replaced > by a more useful combination of a character counter, word counter, > and estimator of the number of braille pages in the selected text. > * Clearer and more consistent font display. > * This release is necessary for NimPro to recognize the latest > DBT release, DBT 11.2. > >Those wishing more information about NimPro should see this web >page: >http://www.duxburysystems.com/nimpro.asp > >------- > >3) New automated price quote for the cost to update. > >We now offer a service to get an automated quote for the cost of >updating your license to the latest edition. Launch DBT, and go to >the Help Menu, The click on Check for Updates. > >If the update is at no charge, you will be told so. If there is a >charge, there is a link to "obtain a quote". If the quote seems high >to you, feel free to contact Duxbury Systems at >orders at duxsys.com with your license number >to make sure that the automated system was correct. > > From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 05:55:58 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:55:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Scholarship Application Message-ID: <71412D6D716145069F99853DBF5E1C10@Helga> Hi all, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I already submitted my Scholarship application an hour ago, and the only thing that I need now is just my interview. However, I just wanted to ask you, when I went to the acknowledgement page of the Scholarship application. I clicked on the submit application button, does that mean that my application was sent successfully to the Scholarship committee even though they sent me a copy of it to my email? I’m just Wondering, since I don’t want to make any mistake! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless! From kathrynwebster at me.com Tue Mar 25 09:47:30 2014 From: kathrynwebster at me.com (Kathryn Webster) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:47:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Scholarship Application In-Reply-To: <71412D6D716145069F99853DBF5E1C10@Helga> References: <71412D6D716145069F99853DBF5E1C10@Helga> Message-ID: That email was a confirmation message, so yes you have successfully submitted it. Kathryn Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 25, 2014, at 1:55 AM, helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com wrote: > > Hi all, this is Helga. How are you all? I just wanted to tell you that I already submitted my Scholarship application an hour ago, and the only thing that I need now is just my interview. However, I just wanted to ask you, when I went to the acknowledgement page of the Scholarship application. I clicked on the submit application button, does that mean that my application was sent successfully to the Scholarship committee even though they sent me a copy of it to my email? I’m just Wondering, since I don’t want to make any mistake! Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kathrynwebster%40me.com From kramc11 at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 20:23:35 2014 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:23:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question References: <320C28831136437CB9295ABAA4298E46@JohnSandersPC> Message-ID: <89B9D02E4D6A4CEEAFC9759089DCD933@ownerf49ceb395> You can always go to an office supply store and get the book rebound for something like $5. Once rebound, I have been able to sell the books to another student or the book store no problem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Germano" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] college ebooks question > His school might remove the binding. My school does so we cannot sell back > the books. > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Elizabeth Mohnke > wrote: > >> hello John, >> >> I am not sure why the college would deny you in-class assistance without >> providing copies of book receipts since these two things are not related. >> Perhaps you simply contacted them too late into the semester, and you >> cannot receive in-class assistance for your specific classes due to >> scheduling conflicts. The only times I have found in-class assistance >> necessary is when doing peer review for writing classes along with math >> and >> science classes. Otherwise, I do not see why this would be necessary for >> straight lecture classes. >> >> As for your textbooks, I am not quite sure why you are expecting to >> receive them for free. The college does not tare off the binding, so you >> can re-sell your books at the end of the semester. If you do not wish to >> purchase your books, you could either search for the books on Bookshare, >> or >> check them out in the library and scan the books yourself. I am not quite >> sure why you are expecting something for free simply because you happen >> to >> be glind. >> >> Finally, I do not see any reason why you cannot take your own notes in >> class regardless of what kind of technology you may or may not have >> access >> to at your fingertips. I have been using a slate and stylus to take class >> notes for quite some time now, and it has worked well enough for me >> despite >> my poor Braille skills. If you learned Braille early on in life, then I >> do >> not see why this could not be an option for you as well. Sometimes we >> have >> to make due with the tools we have on hand rather than what we think >> would >> be the most ideal tool for the job. >> >> Warm regards, >> Elizabeth >> >> >> From: "John Sanders" >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:19 PM >> To: >> Subject: [nabs-l] college ebooks question >> >> Hi all, >>> I have a question: I'm currently attending Lansing Community College >>> and >>> the Office of disability services department is saying that if I want to >>> have a inclass assistant and have my textbooks translated in to etext, I >>> need to buy the books and show the receipt that I had bought the books. >>> Why is this required? >>> I hope to hear from you soon. >>> Sincerely, >>> John Sanders >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:15:34 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:15:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] looking for an app In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01cf47cc$60d9f130$228dd390$@net> Message-ID: Google Calendar might work. There is an option where you have it text appointment reminders to you. You set it up on your computer though. It's been a few years since I used it, and I will give the disclaimer that I didn't always get texts that I should have gotten, but maybe its improved now. On 3/24/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Thanks. I will try to come up with a good solution. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 24, 2014, at 10:07 PM, Ryan Silveira >> wrote: >> >> Hi Lillie, >> >> There is no app that I know of that will allow you to schedule meetings >> specifically for the third Friday of every month (like our OABS meetings). >> You can, however, create recurring appointments that happen on the same >> day or date. For example, if you have an event that happens every Friday >> or on the 24th of every month using the iPhone calendar. Hope this helps. >> >> >> Ryan L. Silveira >> Corresponding Secretary >> Ohio Association of Blind Students >> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, "Changing What it >> Means to be Blind" >> (203) 731-7580 >> ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com >> >>> On Mar 24, 2014, at 9:48 PM, Lillie Pennington >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi everyone >>> >>> I apologize for multiple emails, but I felt that the two subjects were >>> enough to separate into multiple requests. I am looking for an app on >>> either >>> the iPhone or iPad that will allow me to input appointments that are >>> ongoing >>> such as a meeting on every third Friday of the month. I want it to be >>> able >>> to remind me that I have the meetings/appointments a week, two days, and >>> two >>> times during the day of the appointment, preferably via text but I could >>> do >>> a push notification. Will the regular calendar app do this? >>> >>> Thanks for the help. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:19:24 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:19:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS History Project Call Tonight! In-Reply-To: <5409930D-4BD5-4CC5-B6A8-48A812163C6C@icloud.com> References: <36916633-DBBB-47BB-8B66-A41A38C1710B@icloud.com> <5AF43400-FD05-4275-ABB1-618C6CB52E3F@gmail.com> <9CC19687-86AF-4EFB-A145-56EF10E6D9DD@gmail.com> <5409930D-4BD5-4CC5-B6A8-48A812163C6C@icloud.com> Message-ID: Hi Arielle, Right now we're focusing on gathering information about the student division and the events that led up to it's formation in the late 50s through the 60s. We're going to do interviews in chronological order, because that is probably the best way for us to keep our facts straight. I do, however, have you down for an interview once we hit the 2000s to present. :) On 3/22/14, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > Yes. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:03 PM, Darian wrote: > >> Mikaela, >> Are you on this committee as well? >> >> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >> >>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:41 PM, Mikayla Gephart >>> wrote: >>> >>> I am considering talking to her. We both have amazing memories. Look for >>> an email from me soon, Arielle.Mikayla >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Darian wrote: >>>> >>>> It sounds like she won't. >>>> But, she would be awesome to interview! >>>> I'm always amazed at what she remembers >>>> >>>> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >>>> >>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Mikayla Gephart >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Will you be on the call? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> I'm available for an interview if you would like some info about NABS >>>>>> from 2005-2011. I'll see how much I can remember! I'll be at >>>>>> convention this year too. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/22/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The National Association of Blind Students History Project will be >>>>>>> getting started tonight. Please join me and the awesome people in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> CC line of this message for a brief meeting to brainstorm ideas, >>>>>>> plan >>>>>>> for the next several months, and to get our first few interviews >>>>>>> figured out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Call time is 7:00 PM Eastern. Use conference number (605)475-6700. >>>>>>> Code 7869673. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hope to see you all there! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:40:04 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:40:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. In-Reply-To: <532df80b.88cc440a.51e3.ffff9be9@mx.google.com> References: <532df80b.88cc440a.51e3.ffff9be9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Marissa, Here are some suggestions which worked for me: Find a blind person who reads braille music, and see if they'll tutor you. If there are none in your area, there are some who will tutor online. A better place to ask about braille music stuff would be the Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired (MENVI). If you go to Menvi.org and join their list serve, there are people on there who can help you. I know a woman named Sandra does tutoring over Skype, and has gotten some pretty good results. A more brutal way of teaching yourself, although it worked for me, is just to borrow a copy of "The Dictionary of Braille Music Signs" from NLS and read through it. A lot of the signs are ones you'll never have to read, like organ pedal markings, finger markings for stringed instruments, but this way you've at least seen everything. When you come across a symbol for a general music term (such as crescendo or an articulation), spend a little more time looking at it till you know what it is. You could also get in touch with the National Resource Center for Blind Musicians. They have a web site with all sorts of information at blindmusicstudent.org. The staff there is really awesome. There are summer programs which teach braille music classes and others. I know of programs at Berkley in Mas, Michigan, Louisiana, New York, Kentucky, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were some relatively close to you. Don't discount the programs which aren't specifically geared towards blind students; one of the things which really helped me to get proficient at reading braille music was participating in honor bands, and sight reading braille music at rehearsals. Sometimes following along while the rest of the band is looking at a measure, or when the conductor is saying something, really helps to teach you new signs or put what you're reading into context. In the future, keep the Summer Braille Music Institute, offered by the National Resource Center for Blind Musicians, in mind. They're not having a program this year, but anticipate to start having them again in 2015. They typically take students 16 or older, but there was a younger student the year I went (I think he was 12, but was very advanced). All you do is audition with a CD, and fill out a paper application, and complete a phone interview. There are also scholarships which will pay for nearly half of your fee to attend. (The year I went I was 16. I managed to get a full scholarship for $700, and fundraised the remaining $800 on my own. I also remember that instead of playing 2 solo pieces, I was able to put a piece I had played in an honor band earlier that year which had me playing a short solo on the CD, and they still took it. The paper application and the answers to the questions seemed more important). The biggest thing for me was daily exposure to reading the code. I don't think I really got good at reading it until I started taking classes which required me to read it every day. IF you get a piece your band is working on in braille, don't hesitate in asking your director for clarification on signs you don't understand. If you can point out the measure number and what you think is there, they can tell you what actually is, and correct your reading without even knowing the code or braille at all. HTH. On 3/22/14, Marissa wrote: > > I'm not exactly sure, but neither one of my aids can read braille > music, or have the time to help me learn, (they only come in > math). So I have to learn this all on my own. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lillie Pennington To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:47:04 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. > > How do you feel we could best help you? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Marissa > wrote: > > Hey guys, > > So, I know have the "An Introduction to reading braille music" > by Richard Tesh. I can read a little music now, but if someone > can help me get better. > > I can read all the eighth notes and the rest. A whole note c. > And the time signatures. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning > ton%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pianogirlforl > ife7%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:42:16 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:42:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. In-Reply-To: References: <532df80b.88cc440a.51e3.ffff9be9@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Also, Hadley has a really great braille music course that is free to take. So if nothing else, you could get tutoring that way. On 3/26/14, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Marissa, > > Here are some suggestions which worked for me: > > Find a blind person who reads braille music, and see if they'll tutor > you. If there are none in your area, there are some who will tutor > online. A better place to ask about braille music stuff would be the > Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired (MENVI). If you go > to Menvi.org and join their list serve, there are people on there who > can help you. I know a woman named Sandra does tutoring over Skype, > and has gotten some pretty good results. > > A more brutal way of teaching yourself, although it worked for me, is > just to borrow a copy of "The Dictionary of Braille Music Signs" from > NLS and read through it. A lot of the signs are ones you'll never > have to read, like organ pedal markings, finger markings for stringed > instruments, but this way you've at least seen everything. When you > come across a symbol for a general music term (such as crescendo or an > articulation), spend a little more time looking at it till you know > what it is. > > You could also get in touch with the National Resource Center for > Blind Musicians. They have a web site with all sorts of information > at blindmusicstudent.org. The staff there is really awesome. > > There are summer programs which teach braille music classes and > others. I know of programs at Berkley in Mas, Michigan, Louisiana, > New York, Kentucky, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were some > relatively close to you. Don't discount the programs which aren't > specifically geared towards blind students; one of the things which > really helped me to get proficient at reading braille music was > participating in honor bands, and sight reading braille music at > rehearsals. Sometimes following along while the rest of the band is > looking at a measure, or when the conductor is saying something, > really helps to teach you new signs or put what you're reading into > context. In the future, keep the Summer Braille Music Institute, > offered by the National Resource Center for Blind Musicians, in mind. > They're not having a program this year, but anticipate to start having > them again in 2015. They typically take students 16 or older, but > there was a younger student the year I went (I think he was 12, but > was very advanced). All you do is audition with a CD, and fill out a > paper application, and complete a phone interview. There are also > scholarships which will pay for nearly half of your fee to attend. > (The year I went I was 16. I managed to get a full scholarship for > $700, and fundraised the remaining $800 on my own. I also remember > that instead of playing 2 solo pieces, I was able to put a piece I had > played in an honor band earlier that year which had me playing a short > solo on the CD, and they still took it. The paper application and the > answers to the questions seemed more important). > > The biggest thing for me was daily exposure to reading the code. I > don't think I really got good at reading it until I started taking > classes which required me to read it every day. IF you get a piece > your band is working on in braille, don't hesitate in asking your > director for clarification on signs you don't understand. If you can > point out the measure number and what you think is there, they can > tell you what actually is, and correct your reading without even > knowing the code or braille at all. > > HTH. > > On 3/22/14, Marissa wrote: >> >> I'm not exactly sure, but neither one of my aids can read braille >> music, or have the time to help me learn, (they only come in >> math). So I have to learn this all on my own. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Lillie Pennington > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Date sent: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:47:04 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. >> >> How do you feel we could best help you? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 22, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Marissa >> wrote: >> >> Hey guys, >> >> So, I know have the "An Introduction to reading braille music" >> by Richard Tesh. I can read a little music now, but if someone >> can help me get better. >> >> I can read all the eighth notes and the rest. A whole note c. >> And the time signatures. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning >> ton%40fuse.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pianogirlforl >> ife7%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti From marissat789 at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:53:34 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:53:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. Message-ID: <5332dbec.45a9440a.3b45.ffffe166@mx.google.com> That sounds good. Not sure if i could do the camp though, but the other options i could. I have to find a transcriber. We have a piece of music but I'm afraid to get it transcribed because the students say it looks really comfusing. It's really easy, but there are the cues in their to listen to, which throw the students, including myself, off. It's called Voodoo. If you look up: "Voodoo Arranged for high school honors band" should be the second option i think. Anyway, it's a fun song. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kaiti Shelton wrote: I'm not exactly sure, but neither one of my aids can read braille music, or have the time to help me learn, (they only come in math). So I have to learn this all on my own. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington wrote: Hey guys, So, I know have the "An Introduction to reading braille music" by Richard Tesh. I can read a little music now, but if someone can help me get better. I can read all the eighth notes and the rest. A whole note c. And the time signatures. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pianogirlforl ife7%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104%40gmail.com -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From marissat789 at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 13:55:52 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 06:55:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reading braille music. Message-ID: <5332dc76.0382440a.6ab6.ffffd350@mx.google.com> I tried signing up with Hadley, but it's a lot of paper work. I'll see if my aid can help me with that when I go back to school. We're on break this week and my VI aid's breaks are the weel when we come back, so I won't see them for two weeks. One of them is more helpful then the other. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kaiti Shelton wrote: Hi Marissa, Here are some suggestions which worked for me: Find a blind person who reads braille music, and see if they'll tutor you. If there are none in your area, there are some who will tutor online. A better place to ask about braille music stuff would be the Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired (MENVI). If you go to Menvi.org and join their list serve, there are people on there who can help you. I know a woman named Sandra does tutoring over Skype, and has gotten some pretty good results. A more brutal way of teaching yourself, although it worked for me, is just to borrow a copy of "The Dictionary of Braille Music Signs" from NLS and read through it. A lot of the signs are ones you'll never have to read, like organ pedal markings, finger markings for stringed instruments, but this way you've at least seen everything. When you come across a symbol for a general music term (such as crescendo or an articulation), spend a little more time looking at it till you know what it is. You could also get in touch with the National Resource Center for Blind Musicians. They have a web site with all sorts of information at blindmusicstudent.org. The staff there is really awesome. There are summer programs which teach braille music classes and others. I know of programs at Berkley in Mas, Michigan, Louisiana, New York, Kentucky, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were some relatively close to you. Don't discount the programs which aren't specifically geared towards blind students; one of the things which really helped me to get proficient at reading braille music was participating in honor bands, and sight reading braille music at rehearsals. Sometimes following along while the rest of the band is looking at a measure, or when the conductor is saying something, really helps to teach you new signs or put what you're reading into context. In the future, keep the Summer Braille Music Institute, offered by the National Resource Center for Blind Musicians, in mind. They're not having a program this year, but anticipate to start having them again in 2015. They typically take students 16 or older, but there was a younger student the year I went (I think he was 12, but was very advanced). All you do is audition with a CD, and fill out a paper application, and complete a phone interview. There are also scholarships which will pay for nearly half of your fee to attend. (The year I went I was 16. I managed to get a full scholarship for $700, and fundraised the remaining $800 on my own. I also remember that instead of playing 2 solo pieces, I was able to put a piece I had played in an honor band earlier that year which had me playing a short solo on the CD, and they still took it. The paper application and the answers to the questions seemed more important). The biggest thing for me was daily exposure to reading the code. I don't think I really got good at reading it until I started taking classes which required me to read it every day. IF you get a piece your band is working on in braille, don't hesitate in asking your director for clarification on signs you don't understand. If you can point out the measure number and what you think is there, they can tell you what actually is, and correct your reading without even knowing the code or braille at all. HTH. On 3/22/14, Marissa wrote: I'm not exactly sure, but neither one of my aids can read braille music, or have the time to help me learn, (they only come in math). So I have to learn this all on my own. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lillie Pennington wrote: Hey guys, So, I know have the "An Introduction to reading braille music" by Richard Tesh. I can read a little music now, but if someone can help me get better. I can read all the eighth notes and the rest. A whole note c. And the time signatures. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepenning ton%40fuse.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pianogirlforl ife7%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine t104%40gmail.com -- Kaiti -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marissat789%4 0gmail.com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Wed Mar 26 20:22:41 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:22:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] looking for an app In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01cf47cc$60d9f130$228dd390$@net> Message-ID: <385135A5-FACF-4AA1-A5FF-09FF42B884F1@fuse.net> Thanks, I will check this out. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 26, 2014, at 9:15 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Google Calendar might work. There is an option where you have it text > appointment reminders to you. You set it up on your computer though. > It's been a few years since I used it, and I will give the disclaimer > that I didn't always get texts that I should have gotten, but maybe > its improved now. > >> On 3/24/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> Thanks. I will try to come up with a good solution. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 24, 2014, at 10:07 PM, Ryan Silveira >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Lillie, >>> >>> There is no app that I know of that will allow you to schedule meetings >>> specifically for the third Friday of every month (like our OABS meetings). >>> You can, however, create recurring appointments that happen on the same >>> day or date. For example, if you have an event that happens every Friday >>> or on the 24th of every month using the iPhone calendar. Hope this helps. >>> >>> >>> Ryan L. Silveira >>> Corresponding Secretary >>> Ohio Association of Blind Students >>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, "Changing What it >>> Means to be Blind" >>> (203) 731-7580 >>> ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com >>> >>>> On Mar 24, 2014, at 9:48 PM, Lillie Pennington >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi everyone >>>> >>>> I apologize for multiple emails, but I felt that the two subjects were >>>> enough to separate into multiple requests. I am looking for an app on >>>> either >>>> the iPhone or iPad that will allow me to input appointments that are >>>> ongoing >>>> such as a meeting on every third Friday of the month. I want it to be >>>> able >>>> to remind me that I have the meetings/appointments a week, two days, and >>>> two >>>> times during the day of the appointment, preferably via text but I could >>>> do >>>> a push notification. Will the regular calendar app do this? >>>> >>>> Thanks for the help. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Mar 27 02:10:32 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:10:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI Message-ID: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> Hello Everyone I apologize for my posts on this list being generally being negative as of late and my questions having a somewhat no-brainer type of answer. I have a new TVI this year. Based on what I have heard, my parents and I are pretty sure that I am the most advanced student on his caseload in terms of both Braille and/or blindness skills, as well as pretty high up there intellectually. In terms of doing my schoolwork and other school-related things, , I would classify myself as pretty responsible. I do not feel that I have done anything major that would result in a lack of mistrust. However, the way that my TVI sometimes acts towards me makes me feel otherwise. The way he questions some of my actions or what I say as if I cannot be trusted or as if I am lying bothers me. For example, he was wanting to talk about lunch things and who I sat with. He then asked my parra when she came back in the room if I did do these things (referring to my lunch routine.) Another example in my mind that sticks out of being mistrustful is when I was showing my parra the final draft of a research paper because we had been discussing Common Core State Standards (the topic of the paper) earlier. He wanted to see the paper, so I gave him the printed copy. He was quite skeptical about whether the paper was allowed to take an argumentative stance. I told him that it was, and he asked my parra (who is not in that class with me) if it was. There was an upserge in these problems today which I had mainly put in the back of my mind. He and my mobility instructor brought the student that I am supposed to be mentoring next year that I have mentioned in a previous post. They were mainly looking at the building, which I will admit is weirdly layed out. I had previously provided both a written and oral description of the building to this student, and my mobility teacher has obviously seen it working with me. I will go off on another side tangent for a moment. After my description and noting that there were no Braille numbers on the doors, my TVI and the student were very upset. My TVI sent some emails and there is a meeting scheduled at some point to discuss getting Braille numbers installed. I asked if this is really necessary because my sister and I never had that much trouble navigating the building. My TVI asked if I thought about anyone but myself. This comment bothered me at the time but I was worrying about other things at the time so did not give it much thought. Today after the student left, my TVI told me that I should help this student learn the campus. He told me to create a top 10 list; things that would help the student get around. These things had to be totally blind friendly and for someone who could not process things as quickly as I could. There are two problems with this. I do not necessarily know how to see through these student eyes (or in this case, not see.) I have a bit of periferil vision that I use along with alternative techniques to navigate the building. Along with this list, I was expected to come up with things that the administration could do to change the school. I had trouble coming up with both of these lists, because I am pretty happy with the school, and everything basically clicked for me. I did try for about 10 minutes to come up with things and I did come up with something for counting the doors. When I tried to come up with these things, and when I could not and I explained, my TVI did not believe me. He said that it certainly took more time for me to learn the building. I also explained about the vision thing and he was quite skeptical. I am done with being called a lier. I am done with everything I do being questioned. I am done trying to do a job that I feel is the mobility instructors job (with this list.) I felt like I was thrust into this position. I do not want to be generalized in this crusade about Braille numbers about all students who are blind needing them. I want to confront him about this tomorrow. I felt like in a way he was bullying me today. I want to not dread my study hall every day for what he may say. However, I know that I have to pick and choose my battles. I am not sure if this is worth confronting him about. I am going to for sure tell him that I cannot do anymore for this student besides just helping a blind person mentally adjust psychologically to high school. I have an AP test in 6 weeks and I need to focus on preparing for that. I have lost sleep over this student. I have no real attachment to this person but I do have a fear that if I am not the one actively doing things that this student will fall into the wayside. I am also going to tell him that I do not want to be included in the Braille number discussions and that I am perfectly happy with the way things are, and that I do not want any of these arguments being made for "all blind students" because that is not true. However, I do not know if I have the right to do this. My parents think I should help because otherwise no one else will. I feel like I am being manipulated, but I still in a way feel guilty. I am not going to mention the skepticism and how it makes me feel, but I will bring up my unhappiness with the arrangements for this student. I will also speak to my mobility instructor on my next lesson. My TVI is the only one I am hearing these things from. I am not going to bad mouth my TVI, but I will say that I have been asked to spend time doing things and making lists that I do not feel that I have the authority or the experience to make. Is there some other way to do this? I am going to be as respectful as I can, but for me this has to end. Am I doing the right thing? I do not know what else to do in terms of other options. I apologize for the long post. Thank You, Lillie From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 03:20:36 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:20:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI In-Reply-To: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> References: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> Message-ID: Lillie, This is an interesting dilemma. While it would be very nice of you to help this student out, I think you have a fair assessment in mind of what is reasonable for the blindness professionals to ask of you, and what is not. I see your point about there not being a universal need for braille numbers. With the exception of braille, which I will admit I strongly advocate for, there really isn't any universal accomodation that works for all blind students. There are too many variables to have blanket accomodations for everyone, especially in things like mobility where several factors, including amount of vision, other mental or developmental disabilities, and spatial awareness come into play. I personally would side with you on the braille number thing; none of my classrooms in high school except for my braillist's office had braille on them because the building was so old. Granted, my high school was essentially a big square on each floor, but it didn't take rocket science for me to remember room numbers in the first few weeks, and then the room numbers became unimportant because I knew where I was going. Room numbers are really not that important once you get past the first week or so of school and know your routes. I too can't speak for this other student, but at least in my experiences knowing how to get from point A to point B is easier than knowing I have to go from this room to that room. Heck, my college buildings don't have consistent braille labels on doors. In terms of mobility, some people are pretty advanced, and can figure most things out themselves or with minimal coaching, while others really struggle. While it isn't cool just to leave the mobility stragglers in the dust, it also is not okay to expect the good navigators to go above and beyond to help the stragglers. I personally think the best way to improve your skills is to practice them, and people who are coddled can't get that practice in independence. You certainly have the right to refuse to come to the meeting, especially since it would probably mean missing class for you, and as you said you have AP exams in a few weeks. Why should you miss class for a problem you're not having, especially when missing would cause problems for you? I wouldn't take what the TVI says so personally. Yes, it's annoying, and he might have totally ludicrous ideas of how little blind people can actually do, but you only have to put up with him for a limitted time, and if he thinks you're not doing enough to help this student, then he can think what he wants. It sounds like you want to help when it is reasonable, but you also have to protect your own interests and academics. On 3/26/14, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hello Everyone > > I apologize for my posts on this list being generally being negative as of > late and my questions having a somewhat no-brainer type of answer. > > I have a new TVI this year. Based on what I have heard, my parents and I > are > pretty sure that I am the most advanced student on his caseload in terms of > both Braille and/or blindness skills, as well as pretty high up there > intellectually. > > In terms of doing my schoolwork and other school-related things, , I would > classify myself as pretty responsible. I do not feel that I have done > anything major that would result in a lack of mistrust. However, the way > that my TVI sometimes acts towards me makes me feel otherwise. The way he > questions some of my actions or what I say as if I cannot be trusted or as > if I am lying bothers me. For example, he was wanting to talk about lunch > things and who I sat with. He then asked my parra when she came back in the > room if I did do these things (referring to my lunch routine.) Another > example in my mind that sticks out of being mistrustful is when I was > showing my parra the final draft of a research paper because we had been > discussing Common Core State Standards (the topic of the paper) earlier. He > wanted to see the paper, so I gave him the printed copy. He was quite > skeptical about whether the paper was allowed to take an argumentative > stance. I told him that it was, and he asked my parra (who is not in that > class with me) if it was. > > There was an upserge in these problems today which I had mainly put in the > back of my mind. He and my mobility instructor brought the student that I > am > supposed to be mentoring next year that I have mentioned in a previous > post. > They were mainly looking at the building, which I will admit is weirdly > layed out. > > I had previously provided both a written and oral description of the > building to this student, and my mobility teacher has obviously seen it > working with me. > > I will go off on another side tangent for a moment. After my description > and > noting that there were no Braille numbers on the doors, my TVI and the > student were very upset. My TVI sent some emails and there is a meeting > scheduled at some point to discuss getting Braille numbers installed. I > asked if this is really necessary because my sister and I never had that > much trouble navigating the building. My TVI asked if I thought about > anyone > but myself. This comment bothered me at the time but I was worrying about > other things at the time so did not give it much thought. > > Today after the student left, my TVI told me that I should help this > student > learn the campus. He told me to create a top 10 list; things that would > help > the student get around. These things had to be totally blind friendly and > for someone who could not process things as quickly as I could. There are > two problems with this. I do not necessarily know how to see through these > student eyes (or in this case, not see.) I have a bit of periferil vision > that I use along with alternative techniques to navigate the building. > Along > with this list, I was expected to come up with things that the > administration could do to change the school. I had trouble coming up with > both of these lists, because I am pretty happy with the school, and > everything basically clicked for me. I did try for about 10 minutes to come > up with things and I did come up with something for counting the doors. > > When I tried to come up with these things, and when I could not and I > explained, my TVI did not believe me. He said that it certainly took more > time for me to learn the building. I also explained about the vision thing > and he was quite skeptical. > > I am done with being called a lier. I am done with everything I do being > questioned. I am done trying to do a job that I feel is the mobility > instructors job (with this list.) I felt like I was thrust into this > position. I do not want to be generalized in this crusade about Braille > numbers about all students who are blind needing them. > > > > I want to confront him about this tomorrow. I felt like in a way he was > bullying me today. I want to not dread my study hall every day for what he > may say. However, I know that I have to pick and choose my battles. I am > not > sure if this is worth confronting him about. I am going to for sure tell > him > that I cannot do anymore for this student besides just helping a blind > person mentally adjust psychologically to high school. I have an AP test in > 6 weeks and I need to focus on preparing for that. > > I have lost sleep over this student. I have no real attachment to this > person but I do have a fear that if I am not the one actively doing things > that this student will fall into the wayside. I am also going to tell him > that I do not want to be included in the Braille number discussions and > that > I am perfectly happy with the way things are, and that I do not want any of > these arguments being made for "all blind students" because that is not > true. > > However, I do not know if I have the right to do this. My parents think I > should help because otherwise no one else will. I feel like I am being > manipulated, but I still in a way feel guilty. I am not going to mention > the > skepticism and how it makes me feel, but I will bring up my unhappiness > with > the arrangements for this student. > > I will also speak to my mobility instructor on my next lesson. My TVI is > the > only one I am hearing these things from. I am not going to bad mouth my > TVI, > but I will say that I have been asked to spend time doing things and making > lists that I do not feel that I have the authority or the experience to > make. > > > > Is there some other way to do this? I am going to be as respectful as I > can, > but for me this has to end. Am I doing the right thing? I do not know what > else to do in terms of other options. I apologize for the long post. > > Thank You, > > Lillie > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 03:25:51 2014 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan Silveira) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:25:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI In-Reply-To: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> References: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> Message-ID: Hi Lillie, It seems like you’ve got a couple different issue here. Firstly, you have the issue of your TVI not trusting you. I know this will sound harsh, but it is often true—if he is a new teacher, he is probably just exploring what he can and cannot do. Also, you made a point of stating that you were his most high-functioning student. He is used to having to check up on his other students because they, not being as high-functioning as you, may not do what is expected of them. It is also possible that he has been lied to by a number of his other students, simply because they felt that telling the truth (that they didn’t do what was asked of them) would get them in more trouble. I know this from experience. When I was very young (first or second grade, as I recall), I lied several times about not doing the work that was assigned to me. From then on, all throughout my school career, both my parents and teachers felt the need to check up on everything I did to make sure that I was doing what I was asked to do. What I would recommend is to show him, in the most subtle, respectful, polite way you can that you are responsible and reliable. For instance, when he tried to argue that your research paper wasn’t “allowed” to make an argumentative point (a rather ridiculous argument in itself, since the point of any term paper, especially one involving research is to present a point, support it with research and prove that your point is true), get out your rubric for the assignment and show him exactly what the requirements are. Don’t let hi ask your para questions. If and when he does, you step in and answer. It’s kind of like those instances when you are with a friend or a family member at, say, a restaurant and the waitor or waitress asks your friend or family member, “What would she like”, and then you step in and order for yourself. In this case, your TVI believes that you cannot function for yourself, so he asks your para questions. You simply need to step in and show him that you know what you are talking about and don’t let him ask your para questions. Don’t do it in a rude way so as to make him think you are interrupting him, but be firm. Show him that you are capable of handling yourself as well as anyone else. Regarding mentoring the other student, well, that can be a little tricky. If I were you, I would make it clear (again, keeping in mind to be polite, respectful, but firm) that you are in school as well and you have your own busy schedule. You are perfectly willing to answer questions when they are asked and to show the student around once or twice, but you are neither the student’s para, nor their mobility instructor nor their TVI. Basically, you are, to this student, what we all on this list are to each other—mentors. We are here to answer each other’s questions and to discuss issues we may have in common and offer help where and when needed. Like I said, simply make it clear to the TVI and to anyone else involved that you are willing to help, but that you are not a teacher and that you cannot spend every waking moment with the student. There may also be the issue of the student getting to “clingy”. Of course, if you want him or her to become your new best friend, that is all well and good. If you do not, however, make sure you set the boundaries and that the student, his or her parents and his or her teachers are aware of the boundaries. I hope my ramblings made sense. If not, you know how to contact me and I’ll try to make them clearer. Hope this helps. Ryan L. Silveira Corresponding Secretary Ohio Association of Blind Students A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, “Changing What it Means to be Blind” (203) 731-7580 ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com On Mar 26, 2014, at 10:10 PM, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hello Everyone > > I apologize for my posts on this list being generally being negative as of > late and my questions having a somewhat no-brainer type of answer. > > I have a new TVI this year. Based on what I have heard, my parents and I are > pretty sure that I am the most advanced student on his caseload in terms of > both Braille and/or blindness skills, as well as pretty high up there > intellectually. > > In terms of doing my schoolwork and other school-related things, , I would > classify myself as pretty responsible. I do not feel that I have done > anything major that would result in a lack of mistrust. However, the way > that my TVI sometimes acts towards me makes me feel otherwise. The way he > questions some of my actions or what I say as if I cannot be trusted or as > if I am lying bothers me. For example, he was wanting to talk about lunch > things and who I sat with. He then asked my parra when she came back in the > room if I did do these things (referring to my lunch routine.) Another > example in my mind that sticks out of being mistrustful is when I was > showing my parra the final draft of a research paper because we had been > discussing Common Core State Standards (the topic of the paper) earlier. He > wanted to see the paper, so I gave him the printed copy. He was quite > skeptical about whether the paper was allowed to take an argumentative > stance. I told him that it was, and he asked my parra (who is not in that > class with me) if it was. > > There was an upserge in these problems today which I had mainly put in the > back of my mind. He and my mobility instructor brought the student that I am > supposed to be mentoring next year that I have mentioned in a previous post. > They were mainly looking at the building, which I will admit is weirdly > layed out. > > I had previously provided both a written and oral description of the > building to this student, and my mobility teacher has obviously seen it > working with me. > > I will go off on another side tangent for a moment. After my description and > noting that there were no Braille numbers on the doors, my TVI and the > student were very upset. My TVI sent some emails and there is a meeting > scheduled at some point to discuss getting Braille numbers installed. I > asked if this is really necessary because my sister and I never had that > much trouble navigating the building. My TVI asked if I thought about anyone > but myself. This comment bothered me at the time but I was worrying about > other things at the time so did not give it much thought. > > Today after the student left, my TVI told me that I should help this student > learn the campus. He told me to create a top 10 list; things that would help > the student get around. These things had to be totally blind friendly and > for someone who could not process things as quickly as I could. There are > two problems with this. I do not necessarily know how to see through these > student eyes (or in this case, not see.) I have a bit of periferil vision > that I use along with alternative techniques to navigate the building. Along > with this list, I was expected to come up with things that the > administration could do to change the school. I had trouble coming up with > both of these lists, because I am pretty happy with the school, and > everything basically clicked for me. I did try for about 10 minutes to come > up with things and I did come up with something for counting the doors. > > When I tried to come up with these things, and when I could not and I > explained, my TVI did not believe me. He said that it certainly took more > time for me to learn the building. I also explained about the vision thing > and he was quite skeptical. > > I am done with being called a lier. I am done with everything I do being > questioned. I am done trying to do a job that I feel is the mobility > instructors job (with this list.) I felt like I was thrust into this > position. I do not want to be generalized in this crusade about Braille > numbers about all students who are blind needing them. > > > > I want to confront him about this tomorrow. I felt like in a way he was > bullying me today. I want to not dread my study hall every day for what he > may say. However, I know that I have to pick and choose my battles. I am not > sure if this is worth confronting him about. I am going to for sure tell him > that I cannot do anymore for this student besides just helping a blind > person mentally adjust psychologically to high school. I have an AP test in > 6 weeks and I need to focus on preparing for that. > > I have lost sleep over this student. I have no real attachment to this > person but I do have a fear that if I am not the one actively doing things > that this student will fall into the wayside. I am also going to tell him > that I do not want to be included in the Braille number discussions and that > I am perfectly happy with the way things are, and that I do not want any of > these arguments being made for "all blind students" because that is not > true. > > However, I do not know if I have the right to do this. My parents think I > should help because otherwise no one else will. I feel like I am being > manipulated, but I still in a way feel guilty. I am not going to mention the > skepticism and how it makes me feel, but I will bring up my unhappiness with > the arrangements for this student. > > I will also speak to my mobility instructor on my next lesson. My TVI is the > only one I am hearing these things from. I am not going to bad mouth my TVI, > but I will say that I have been asked to spend time doing things and making > lists that I do not feel that I have the authority or the experience to > make. > > > > Is there some other way to do this? I am going to be as respectful as I can, > but for me this has to end. Am I doing the right thing? I do not know what > else to do in terms of other options. I apologize for the long post. > > Thank You, > > Lillie > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 27 04:37:11 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 00:37:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI In-Reply-To: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> References: <000001cf4961$bbb04320$3310c960$@net> Message-ID: <700672A7550846DD8CAF11DB8AC03604@OwnerPC> Lilly, What a tough situation. Your TVI does not seem too respectful. I agree with Ryan. On the questions he directs to your para, just step in and answer them. Also, tell him you are a responsible student who can take AP classes. Say you can do your work yourself and if you need his help, you will ask for it. My TVIs always put me in control, especially in high school. I had to advocate; I had to get my work done and if I missed something written on the board, my TVI expected me to ask my teachers for that info orally. Also, get your parents backing, and if it continues, they should have words with him. I would not put up with this either, and I can tell its taking a psychological tole on you. For the mobility problems of the other blind student, I echo others suggestions; you can assist them in showing them around a few times. Besides this, it’s the mobility instructor's job. You could make a list of ten things to assist someone in navigation. You can get my ideas if needed. But, I think its unreasonable to solicit your input in changing the school. This student needs the skills to navigate, not the building to change for him. If the TVI thinks the school should change for him, that is a red flag. My TVIs always believed I had to adapt and learn skills, not let the world adapt for me. I'd reiterate your position that you would not see that anything changed, but you do hope with some teaching and repetition this student can navigate. I think braille numbers can help, especially when learning new areas; once you know a place, you don't need to confirm you're there with the numbers. But I think its helpful because you really confirm you are there; sighted people see the signs, and its nice to have them accessible. So, coming from someone with some spatial challenges, I would not fight against them. The student probably would benefit from tactile maps and if they have cognitive challenges, they could benefit from tactile cues to tell them what is next. Basically, I've heard of this technique for those with memory or verbal challenges; like when someone cannot understand words. You have objects to represent activities and locations. You as the teacher hand the student the object and then go to that location. It continues like this over lessons in a specific pattern. The student then associates the object with the location. For instance, toy food can represent the cafeteria, a small ball can represent gym, and a small instrument like a chime could represent music class. Not sure how it would work for general classes because they all seem similar. If the mobility instructor is good and has experience with a range of mental abilities, he/she should know this. I hope this gets resolved asap. Sorry to hear this since this is totally opposite of how a TVI should act. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Lillie Pennington Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 10:10 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] problems with a TVI Hello Everyone I apologize for my posts on this list being generally being negative as of late and my questions having a somewhat no-brainer type of answer. I have a new TVI this year. Based on what I have heard, my parents and I are pretty sure that I am the most advanced student on his caseload in terms of both Braille and/or blindness skills, as well as pretty high up there intellectually. In terms of doing my schoolwork and other school-related things, , I would classify myself as pretty responsible. I do not feel that I have done anything major that would result in a lack of mistrust. However, the way that my TVI sometimes acts towards me makes me feel otherwise. The way he questions some of my actions or what I say as if I cannot be trusted or as if I am lying bothers me. For example, he was wanting to talk about lunch things and who I sat with. He then asked my parra when she came back in the room if I did do these things (referring to my lunch routine.) Another example in my mind that sticks out of being mistrustful is when I was showing my parra the final draft of a research paper because we had been discussing Common Core State Standards (the topic of the paper) earlier. He wanted to see the paper, so I gave him the printed copy. He was quite skeptical about whether the paper was allowed to take an argumentative stance. I told him that it was, and he asked my parra (who is not in that class with me) if it was. There was an upserge in these problems today which I had mainly put in the back of my mind. He and my mobility instructor brought the student that I am supposed to be mentoring next year that I have mentioned in a previous post. They were mainly looking at the building, which I will admit is weirdly layed out. I had previously provided both a written and oral description of the building to this student, and my mobility teacher has obviously seen it working with me. I will go off on another side tangent for a moment. After my description and noting that there were no Braille numbers on the doors, my TVI and the student were very upset. My TVI sent some emails and there is a meeting scheduled at some point to discuss getting Braille numbers installed. I asked if this is really necessary because my sister and I never had that much trouble navigating the building. My TVI asked if I thought about anyone but myself. This comment bothered me at the time but I was worrying about other things at the time so did not give it much thought. Today after the student left, my TVI told me that I should help this student learn the campus. He told me to create a top 10 list; things that would help the student get around. These things had to be totally blind friendly and for someone who could not process things as quickly as I could. There are two problems with this. I do not necessarily know how to see through these student eyes (or in this case, not see.) I have a bit of periferil vision that I use along with alternative techniques to navigate the building. Along with this list, I was expected to come up with things that the administration could do to change the school. I had trouble coming up with both of these lists, because I am pretty happy with the school, and everything basically clicked for me. I did try for about 10 minutes to come up with things and I did come up with something for counting the doors. When I tried to come up with these things, and when I could not and I explained, my TVI did not believe me. He said that it certainly took more time for me to learn the building. I also explained about the vision thing and he was quite skeptical. I am done with being called a lier. I am done with everything I do being questioned. I am done trying to do a job that I feel is the mobility instructors job (with this list.) I felt like I was thrust into this position. I do not want to be generalized in this crusade about Braille numbers about all students who are blind needing them. I want to confront him about this tomorrow. I felt like in a way he was bullying me today. I want to not dread my study hall every day for what he may say. However, I know that I have to pick and choose my battles. I am not sure if this is worth confronting him about. I am going to for sure tell him that I cannot do anymore for this student besides just helping a blind person mentally adjust psychologically to high school. I have an AP test in 6 weeks and I need to focus on preparing for that. I have lost sleep over this student. I have no real attachment to this person but I do have a fear that if I am not the one actively doing things that this student will fall into the wayside. I am also going to tell him that I do not want to be included in the Braille number discussions and that I am perfectly happy with the way things are, and that I do not want any of these arguments being made for "all blind students" because that is not true. However, I do not know if I have the right to do this. My parents think I should help because otherwise no one else will. I feel like I am being manipulated, but I still in a way feel guilty. I am not going to mention the skepticism and how it makes me feel, but I will bring up my unhappiness with the arrangements for this student. I will also speak to my mobility instructor on my next lesson. My TVI is the only one I am hearing these things from. I am not going to bad mouth my TVI, but I will say that I have been asked to spend time doing things and making lists that I do not feel that I have the authority or the experience to make. Is there some other way to do this? I am going to be as respectful as I can, but for me this has to end. Am I doing the right thing? I do not know what else to do in terms of other options. I apologize for the long post. Thank You, Lillie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From philso1003 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 10:28:37 2014 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Phil) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 06:28:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Message-ID: Hi all, I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. Thanks! Best, Phil From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Mar 27 11:53:53 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 05:53:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53341151.5020606@comcast.net> Hi, Phil. Let me see something here. What I've found about the blind folks who fail at stuff is that they have the following characeteristics: they lack the ability to memorize bits and concepts of info, as in my last boyfriend I had because he had memory issues; they are passive victims of bullying, but worse off, they exhibit problematic behavior on and offline, which is the case with the same man; they start things, in the case of a blind girl I met online; they do not let go of things, even when the person has changed, as in the case of someone I know for years. Problematic behaviors that keep the blind back include charming, seducing, then abusing; lack of social skills training; lack of discipline and centrality; lack of understanding of different people, etc. The best characteristics that blind people have that give them success is consideration, caring for others, and a general characteristic of all people who are successful is the people with empathy. Empathy, I have found, really works on people. I am a whole lot more empathic to people's needs than a lot, and I don't mean to brag. But that's just me. Beth On 3/27/2014 4:28 AM, Phil wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. > Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, > social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's > likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal > characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal > characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a > different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful > blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? > For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity > and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical > surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and > career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having > the courage to be different is important as a blind person. > What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? > Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. > Thanks! > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 17:48:00 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:48:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be willing to explore, and adapt. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Hi all, I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. Thanks! Best, Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 18:26:17 2014 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:26:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because we are blind? Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We are not just blind; we are people. A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you aren't > good > at something, then they don't count for as much; you have to make yourself > useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more knowledge than everyone > else around you. Understanding the value of good training, personal > development, a wealth of knowledge, and great technique. Learn any thing > you can. Learn also how to interweave your blindness skills into the > normal > skills of what you as a person need to no. Learn what you do, and what you > don't do. Also, be willing to explore, and adapt. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind > people > > Hi all, > > I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. > Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social > and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood > of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a > moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a > blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and > behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what > makes you cite these traits? > For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and > exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, > intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career > possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage > to > be different is important as a blind person. > What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? > Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. > Thanks! > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Mar 27 15:33:28 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:33:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <53341151.5020606@comcast.net> References: <53341151.5020606@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Phil. Beth has some good points. I would also add resilliance or the ability to recover from mistakes is important. Also being assertive but knowing when to chose your battles. Problem solving is huge. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 27, 2014, at 7:53 AM, Beth Taurasi wrote: > > Hi, Phil. > Let me see something here. What I've found about the blind folks who fail at stuff is that they have the following characeteristics: they lack the ability to memorize bits and concepts of info, as in my last boyfriend I had because he had memory issues; they are passive victims of bullying, but worse off, they exhibit problematic behavior on and offline, which is the case with the same man; they start things, in the case of a blind girl I met online; they do not let go of things, even when the person has changed, as in the case of someone I know for years. Problematic behaviors that keep the blind back include charming, seducing, then abusing; lack of social skills training; lack of discipline and centrality; lack of understanding of different people, etc. The best characteristics that blind people have that give them success is consideration, caring for others, and a general characteristic of all people who are successful is the people with empathy. Empathy, I have found, really works on people. I am a whole lot more empathic to people's needs than a lot, and I don't mean to brag. But that's just me. > Beth >> On 3/27/2014 4:28 AM, Phil wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >> likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 18:48:08 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:48:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be better than average and a little unique to really find the success you want. If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, or something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is a dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but you got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It is merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because we are blind? Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We are not just blind; we are people. A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you > aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have > to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more > knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of > good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great > technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave > your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person > need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be > willing to explore, and adapt. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > Hi all, > > I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. > Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, > social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's > likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal > characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal > characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a > different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful > blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? > For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity > and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical > surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and > career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having > the courage to be different is important as a blind person. > What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? > Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. > Thanks! > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. > com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:18:01 2014 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:18:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think it's probably fair to say The trades that contribute to people being successful in general-discipline, grit, knowing how to set and work towards goals, etc., apply to us as blind people probably more then they would even for the average person. Ability, whether blindness specific skills or whatever other talents a person might have, can only take you so far.l i'm learning this through painful experience right now, by the way… i'm intelligent, I have solid blindness skills and plenty of other talents… but I'm discovering that The willingness to work my ass off, which I'm still trying to develop, probably counts for at least as much as all those other things put together. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 27, 2014, at 11:48 AM, "justin williams" wrote: > > Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you aren't good > at something, then they don't count for as much; you have to make yourself > useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more knowledge than everyone > else around you. Understanding the value of good training, personal > development, a wealth of knowledge, and great technique. Learn any thing > you can. Learn also how to interweave your blindness skills into the normal > skills of what you as a person need to no. Learn what you do, and what you > don't do. Also, be willing to explore, and adapt. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind > people > > Hi all, > > I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. > Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social > and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood > of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a > moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a > blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and > behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what > makes you cite these traits? > For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and > exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, > intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career > possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to > be different is important as a blind person. > What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? > Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. > Thanks! > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:21:24 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:21:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's an article I've written. Effective comunication with your DBS councilor. http://dbs.myflorida.com/about-us/DBS-Newsletter/2014-03/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people >I think it's probably fair to say The trades that contribute to people >being successful in general-discipline, grit, knowing how to set and work >towards goals, etc., apply to us as blind people probably more then they >would even for the average person. Ability, whether blindness specific >skills or whatever other talents a person might have, can only take you so >far.l i'm learning this through painful experience right now, by the way… >i'm intelligent, I have solid blindness skills and plenty of other talents… >but I'm discovering that The willingness to work my ass off, which I'm >still trying to develop, probably counts for at least as much as all those >other things put together. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 27, 2014, at 11:48 AM, "justin williams" >> wrote: >> >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you aren't >> good >> at something, then they don't count for as much; you have to make >> yourself >> useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more knowledge than >> everyone >> else around you. Understanding the value of good training, personal >> development, a wealth of knowledge, and great technique. Learn any thing >> you can. Learn also how to interweave your blindness skills into the >> normal >> skills of what you as a person need to no. Learn what you do, and what >> you >> don't do. Also, be willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind >> people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social >> and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >> likelihood >> of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a >> moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help >> a >> blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and >> behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what >> makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and >> exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, >> intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career >> possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage >> to >> be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > From mikgephart at icloud.com Thu Mar 27 20:21:38 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:21:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Student Schollarships Message-ID: Hi, What is the application process for getting a student schollarship? It is not time yet for me, but I am starting to think about it. Mikayla Sent from my iPad From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:25:12 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:25:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you're oversimplifying the problem. Firstly, what does it mean to be average anyway? I'm an average student in that I work hard, get good grades, involve myself in extracurriculars and community service. There are thousands and thousands of students out there that are just "average" and they still get jobs and are successfully employed. It's not really about being unique, but about the experiences that you have and your work ethic. Employers are looking for people that will contribute 100% into their job and it doesn't matter if you have an undergrad or grad degree, they are still going to hold you to the same standards. It's a huge misconception out there that if you have a masters, it automatically elevates your chances of getting a job, and it's not true at all. At my service placement, I help clients search for jobs and a bunch of them have masters degrees and still can't gain employment. As for characteristics of successful blind people, I don't know why the distinction "blind" has to be associated at all. I'm running through a list of successful blind and sighted people I know and there's not one single characteristic that they do not share. On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At > times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, > you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you > befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping > outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my > personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the > mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, > because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to > access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be > better than average and a little unique to really find the success you > want. > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, > we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably > going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, > and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, > or > something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, > or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is > a > dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but > you > got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but > that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It is > merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps > catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for > purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie > McGinnity > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than > our > sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves > look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because we > are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over > emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define > them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary > skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We > are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception of > blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating > and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but > I > bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities > will > work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently > because > of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >> willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >> likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >> com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation > of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of > Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For > God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who > believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:32:11 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:32:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com><012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: You don't have to be better, just be yourself! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "minh ha" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people >I think you're oversimplifying the problem. Firstly, what does it mean > to be average anyway? I'm an average student in that I work hard, get > good grades, involve myself in extracurriculars and community service. > There are thousands and thousands of students out there that are just > "average" and they still get jobs and are successfully employed. It's > not really about being unique, but about the experiences that you have > and your work ethic. Employers are looking for people that will > contribute 100% into their job and it doesn't matter if you have an > undergrad or grad degree, they are still going to hold you to the same > standards. It's a huge misconception out there that if you have a > masters, it automatically elevates your chances of getting a job, and > it's not true at all. At my service placement, I help clients search > for jobs and a bunch of them have masters degrees and still can't gain > employment. > > As for characteristics of successful blind people, I don't know why > the distinction "blind" has to be associated at all. I'm running > through a list of successful blind and sighted people I know and > there's not one single characteristic that they do not share. > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. >> At >> times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, >> you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you >> befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping >> outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my >> personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the >> mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, >> because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to >> access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be >> better than average and a little unique to really find the success you >> want. >> If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same >> credentials, >> we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is >> probably >> going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in >> counseling, >> and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, >> or >> something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity >> treatment, >> or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it >> is >> a >> dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to >> be >> a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but >> you >> got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, >> but >> that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It >> is >> merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps >> catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for >> purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie >> McGinnity >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than >> our >> sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves >> look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because >> we >> are blind? >> >> Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't >> over >> emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define >> them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary >> skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. >> We >> are not just blind; we are people. >> >> A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception >> of >> blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating >> and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, >> but >> I >> bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities >> will >> work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently >> because >> of my blindness. >> Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? >> >> On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >>> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >>> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >>> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >>> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >>> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >>> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >>> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >>> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >>> willing to explore, and adapt. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>> blind people >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >>> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >>> likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >>> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >>> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >>> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >>> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >>> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >>> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >>> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >>> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Best, >>> Phil >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> 0gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation >> of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of >> Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> "For >> God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who >> believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:33:10 2014 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:33:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Advice on internship Message-ID: Hi all, I am currently applying for internships this summer, and I am looking for some advice on how to handle addressing one of the requirements for this particular internship. The internship is a fund-raising internship where I would be creating online giving campaigns and writing grants/getting in touch with donors. However, one of the requirements is proficiency with adobi photo shop or similar program to develop brochures. For obvious reasons, this requirement would be extremely hard for me to fulfill, but other than that, it is a perfect match for my skill set. How would you go about addressing an issue like this in a cover letter or subsequent interview? Thanks for any advice! Best, Minh -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From mikgephart at icloud.com Thu Mar 27 20:37:24 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:37:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Advice on internship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would probably say that I am blind, but can do all of the job requirements except that. Will there be other employees with the same responsibilities? Mikayla Sent from my iPad On Mar 27, 2014, at 4:33 PM, minh ha wrote: > Hi all, > > I am currently applying for internships this summer, and I am looking > for some advice on how to handle addressing one of the requirements > for this particular internship. The internship is a fund-raising > internship where I would be creating online giving campaigns and > writing grants/getting in touch with donors. However, one of the > requirements is proficiency with adobi photo shop or similar program > to develop brochures. For obvious reasons, this requirement would be > extremely hard for me to fulfill, but other than that, it is a perfect > match for my skill set. How would you go about addressing an issue > like this in a cover letter or subsequent interview? Thanks for any > advice! > > Best, > Minh > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:43:21 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:43:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003601cf49fd$31e7c4a0$95b74de0$@gmail.com> Agreed. I'm jusg giving you my experiences. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people I think you're oversimplifying the problem. Firstly, what does it mean to be average anyway? I'm an average student in that I work hard, get good grades, involve myself in extracurriculars and community service. There are thousands and thousands of students out there that are just "average" and they still get jobs and are successfully employed. It's not really about being unique, but about the experiences that you have and your work ethic. Employers are looking for people that will contribute 100% into their job and it doesn't matter if you have an undergrad or grad degree, they are still going to hold you to the same standards. It's a huge misconception out there that if you have a masters, it automatically elevates your chances of getting a job, and it's not true at all. At my service placement, I help clients search for jobs and a bunch of them have masters degrees and still can't gain employment. As for characteristics of successful blind people, I don't know why the distinction "blind" has to be associated at all. I'm running through a list of successful blind and sighted people I know and there's not one single characteristic that they do not share. On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you > do. At times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really > successful, you have to be better than average to make people decide > that hiring you befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is > worth stepping outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold > everyone to my personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just > average run of the mill, technically, you would be counted as less > than your counterparts, because they have nothing as a barrier for the > boss, friend, or lover to access their averageness. Spin it anyway you > want, but you've got to be better than average and a little unique to > really find the success you want. > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same > credentials, we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted > person is probably going to get the entry level job. Get your > master's degree in counseling, and stand out. There is less > competition, and you are seen as an expert, or something close. > Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, or you may > even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is a dead > end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, > but you got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is > alright, but that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you > really want. It is merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your > piers is what helps catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving > out spirituality for purposes of this conversation, but once again, > you got my drift. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie > McGinnity > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of > successful blind people > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better > than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to > make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not > overlook us because we are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't > over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics > that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, > learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills > in other areas. We are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread > misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and > focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no > way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who > worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a > certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >> willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind >> person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >> com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri > Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the > Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only > Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have > eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail > .com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:44:00 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:44:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701cf49fd$489ee480$d9dcad80$@gmail.com> We are saying the same thing, I just said it differently. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people I think you're oversimplifying the problem. Firstly, what does it mean to be average anyway? I'm an average student in that I work hard, get good grades, involve myself in extracurriculars and community service. There are thousands and thousands of students out there that are just "average" and they still get jobs and are successfully employed. It's not really about being unique, but about the experiences that you have and your work ethic. Employers are looking for people that will contribute 100% into their job and it doesn't matter if you have an undergrad or grad degree, they are still going to hold you to the same standards. It's a huge misconception out there that if you have a masters, it automatically elevates your chances of getting a job, and it's not true at all. At my service placement, I help clients search for jobs and a bunch of them have masters degrees and still can't gain employment. As for characteristics of successful blind people, I don't know why the distinction "blind" has to be associated at all. I'm running through a list of successful blind and sighted people I know and there's not one single characteristic that they do not share. On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you > do. At times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really > successful, you have to be better than average to make people decide > that hiring you befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is > worth stepping outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold > everyone to my personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just > average run of the mill, technically, you would be counted as less > than your counterparts, because they have nothing as a barrier for the > boss, friend, or lover to access their averageness. Spin it anyway you > want, but you've got to be better than average and a little unique to > really find the success you want. > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same > credentials, we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted > person is probably going to get the entry level job. Get your > master's degree in counseling, and stand out. There is less > competition, and you are seen as an expert, or something close. > Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, or you may > even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is a dead > end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, > but you got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is > alright, but that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you > really want. It is merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your > piers is what helps catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving > out spirituality for purposes of this conversation, but once again, > you got my drift. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie > McGinnity > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of > successful blind people > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better > than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to > make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not > overlook us because we are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't > over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics > that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, > learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills > in other areas. We are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread > misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and > focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no > way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who > worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a > certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >> willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind >> person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >> com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri > Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the > Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only > Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have > eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail > .com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:45:53 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:45:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com><012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003801cf49fd$8c6ed120$a54c7360$@gmail.com> Keep in mind folks; I am 34. I am coming at this from a different angle than most of you. Like me or hate me, I call it like I see it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people You don't have to be better, just be yourself! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "minh ha" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people >I think you're oversimplifying the problem. Firstly, what does it mean >to be average anyway? I'm an average student in that I work hard, get >good grades, involve myself in extracurriculars and community service. > There are thousands and thousands of students out there that are just >"average" and they still get jobs and are successfully employed. It's >not really about being unique, but about the experiences that you have >and your work ethic. Employers are looking for people that will >contribute 100% into their job and it doesn't matter if you have an >undergrad or grad degree, they are still going to hold you to the same >standards. It's a huge misconception out there that if you have a >masters, it automatically elevates your chances of getting a job, and >it's not true at all. At my service placement, I help clients search >for jobs and a bunch of them have masters degrees and still can't gain >employment. > > As for characteristics of successful blind people, I don't know why > the distinction "blind" has to be associated at all. I'm running > through a list of successful blind and sighted people I know and > there's not one single characteristic that they do not share. > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. >> At >> times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really >> successful, you have to be better than average to make people decide >> that hiring you befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you >> is worth stepping outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare >> hold everyone to my personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are >> just average run of the mill, technically, you would be counted as >> less than your counterparts, because they have nothing as a barrier >> for the boss, friend, or lover to access their averageness. Spin it >> anyway you want, but you've got to be better than average and a >> little unique to really find the success you want. >> If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same >> credentials, we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted >> person is probably going to get the entry level job. Get your >> master's degree in counseling, and stand out. There is less >> competition, and you are seen as an expert, or something close. >> Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, or you may >> even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is a >> dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want >> to be a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's >> degree, but you got my drift. You want people to respect you. >> Admiration is alright, but that does not get you hired, dated, or >> anything else you really want. It is merely the gateway to respect, >> and respect of your piers is what helps catapult you to actual >> success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for purposes of this >> conversation, but once again, you got my drift. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie >> McGinnity >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >> successful blind people >> >> This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better >> than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to >> make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not >> overlook us because we are blind? >> >> Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't >> over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics >> that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, >> learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and >> skills in other areas. >> We >> are not just blind; we are people. >> >> A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread >> misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and >> focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no >> way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who >> worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a >> certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. >> Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? >> >> On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >>> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >>> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you >>> have to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit >>> more knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the >>> value of good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, >>> and great technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to >>> interweave your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you >>> as a person need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. >>> Also, be willing to explore, and adapt. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>> blind people >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >>> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind >>> person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >>> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >>> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >>> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do >>> successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >>> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >>> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects >>> and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out >>> having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Best, >>> Phil >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> %4 >>> 0gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >>> com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri >> Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the >> Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only >> Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have >> eternal life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmai >> l.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu > r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:46:08 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:46:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Advice on internship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <758EF258-5C5B-4A30-BD27-CC5BC18FC42C@gmail.com> Hello, Forgive the vagueness here, as I don't necessarily know what exactly I would say. What's coming to mind right now is to assess how much of what I'm doing has to do with those programs. If a good majority of the work has to do with it then this might not be an appropriate opportunity for me because I'm spending more time on the workaround then being productive. This seems not to be the case however, so I would look into how I would work around this particular aspect. If the barrier I'm facing is small enough, maybe I can request an assistant on staff or a fellow intern to complete the task. Maybe I would look into what precisely i am supposed to do with these programs and see if there are other technological workarounds. This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 27, 2014, at 1:33 PM, minh ha wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am currently applying for internships this summer, and I am looking > for some advice on how to handle addressing one of the requirements > for this particular internship. The internship is a fund-raising > internship where I would be creating online giving campaigns and > writing grants/getting in touch with donors. However, one of the > requirements is proficiency with adobi photo shop or similar program > to develop brochures. For obvious reasons, this requirement would be > extremely hard for me to fulfill, but other than that, it is a perfect > match for my skill set. How would you go about addressing an issue > like this in a cover letter or subsequent interview? Thanks for any > advice! > > Best, > Minh > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:49:58 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:49:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Student Schollarships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19CA1C5C-0E54-4195-80DF-513D16A5CFC3@gmail.com> Hello, I would start to think about scholarships right around sophomore and into junior year. Of high school. In reality, just applying for scholarships and senior year and by that time hopefully you will have a good academic, extracurricular and the community service background. The requirements for the national Federation of the blind scholarship can be found at www.nfb.org/scholarships Hth Darian This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 27, 2014, at 1:21 PM, Mikayla Gephart wrote: > > Hi, > What is the application process for getting a student schollarship? It is not time yet for me, but I am starting to think about it. > Mikayla > > Sent from my iPad > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:57:12 2014 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:57:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: This entire discussion is pointless because no one has defined successful. What is it? Is it getting a master's degree and job in your field? Climbing a tall mountain? Working as a garbage collector to feed and protect your husband and children? If I travel solo around the world would you call me successful despite my disability, or laugh at me because I don't have a job? If I have an expensive English degree and work as a receptionist at an engineering firm am I now considered "successful" even if I'm miserable and hate my job? If I work at Target because I've got bills and responsibilities, am I successful for getting a job or a failure for not having the curiosity, intellect, training, adaptability -- or whatever other characteristics you have identified in this thread? We go on and on with these useless terms and buzzwords without defining them or considering that success to one person might be failure to another. Brice On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At > times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, > you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you > befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping > outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my > personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the > mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, > because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to > access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be > better than average and a little unique to really find the success you > want. > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, > we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably > going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, > and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, > or > something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, > or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is > a > dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but > you > got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but > that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It is > merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps > catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for > purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie > McGinnity > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than > our > sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves > look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because we > are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over > emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define > them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary > skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We > are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception of > blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating > and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but > I > bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities > will > work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently > because > of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >> willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >> likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >> com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation > of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of > Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For > God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who > believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:00:05 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:00:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003e01cf49ff$883ad980$98b08c80$@gmail.com> What ever you say it is for you. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people This entire discussion is pointless because no one has defined successful. What is it? Is it getting a master's degree and job in your field? Climbing a tall mountain? Working as a garbage collector to feed and protect your husband and children? If I travel solo around the world would you call me successful despite my disability, or laugh at me because I don't have a job? If I have an expensive English degree and work as a receptionist at an engineering firm am I now considered "successful" even if I'm miserable and hate my job? If I work at Target because I've got bills and responsibilities, am I successful for getting a job or a failure for not having the curiosity, intellect, training, adaptability -- or whatever other characteristics you have identified in this thread? We go on and on with these useless terms and buzzwords without defining them or considering that success to one person might be failure to another. Brice On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you > do. At times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really > successful, you have to be better than average to make people decide > that hiring you befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is > worth stepping outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold > everyone to my personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just > average run of the mill, technically, you would be counted as less > than your counterparts, because they have nothing as a barrier for the > boss, friend, or lover to access their averageness. Spin it anyway you > want, but you've got to be better than average and a little unique to > really find the success you want. > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same > credentials, we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted > person is probably going to get the entry level job. Get your > master's degree in counseling, and stand out. There is less > competition, and you are seen as an expert, or something close. > Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, or you may > even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is a dead > end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, > but you got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is > alright, but that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you > really want. It is merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your > piers is what helps catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving > out spirituality for purposes of this conversation, but once again, > you got my drift. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie > McGinnity > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of > successful blind people > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better > than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to > make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not > overlook us because we are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't > over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics > that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, > learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills > in other areas. We are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread > misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and > focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no > way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who > worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a > certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >> willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind >> person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >> com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri > Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the > Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only > Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have > eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40g > mail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From blacklotus86 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:03:58 2014 From: blacklotus86 at gmail.com (zeynep sule yilmaz) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:03:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advice on internship In-Reply-To: <758EF258-5C5B-4A30-BD27-CC5BC18FC42C@gmail.com> References: <758EF258-5C5B-4A30-BD27-CC5BC18FC42C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Minh, I would disclose it at my interview. You will have chance to convince employer for your qualifications. If they say that is the main duty, you can offer possible solutions. Everyone is looking for from his or her perspective so final decision is totally yours. Research says discrimination occurs less through in person communication. Good luck! Zeynep 2014-03-27 15:46 GMT-05:00, Darian : > Hello, > Forgive the vagueness here, as I don't necessarily know what exactly I would > say. > What's coming to mind right now is to assess how much of what I'm doing has > to do with those programs. If a good majority of the work has to do with it > then this might not be an appropriate opportunity for me because I'm > spending more time on the workaround then being productive. > > This seems not to be the case however, so I would look into how I would work > around this particular aspect. If the barrier I'm facing is small enough, > maybe I can request an assistant on staff or a fellow intern to complete the > task. Maybe I would look into what precisely i am supposed to do with > these programs and see if there are other technological workarounds. > > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Mar 27, 2014, at 1:33 PM, minh ha wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am currently applying for internships this summer, and I am looking >> for some advice on how to handle addressing one of the requirements >> for this particular internship. The internship is a fund-raising >> internship where I would be creating online giving campaigns and >> writing grants/getting in touch with donors. However, one of the >> requirements is proficiency with adobi photo shop or similar program >> to develop brochures. For obvious reasons, this requirement would be >> extremely hard for me to fulfill, but other than that, it is a perfect >> match for my skill set. How would you go about addressing an issue >> like this in a cover letter or subsequent interview? Thanks for any >> advice! >> >> Best, >> Minh >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86%40gmail.com > From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:05:52 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:05:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] From Dr. RJ Sandefur Message-ID: Dear List, I had a councilor tell me that being in the ministry wasn't a realistic goal, but I went to seminary, and obtained a masters and a doctoral degree in theology. Dr. RJ Sandefur From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:10:43 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:10:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Advice on internship References: <758EF258-5C5B-4A30-BD27-CC5BC18FC42C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F26F3FCD4B6470F8D8802212719ECB8@robert9999b7cf> Be honest! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "zeynep sule yilmaz" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Advice on internship > Hi Minh, > > I would disclose it at my interview. You will have chance to convince > employer for your qualifications. If they say that is the main duty, > you can offer possible solutions. Everyone is looking for from his or > her perspective so final decision is totally yours. Research says > discrimination occurs less through in person communication. > > Good luck! > > Zeynep > > > 2014-03-27 15:46 GMT-05:00, Darian : >> Hello, >> Forgive the vagueness here, as I don't necessarily know what exactly I >> would >> say. >> What's coming to mind right now is to assess how much of what I'm doing >> has >> to do with those programs. If a good majority of the work has to do with >> it >> then this might not be an appropriate opportunity for me because I'm >> spending more time on the workaround then being productive. >> >> This seems not to be the case however, so I would look into how I would >> work >> around this particular aspect. If the barrier I'm facing is small >> enough, >> maybe I can request an assistant on staff or a fellow intern to complete >> the >> task. Maybe I would look into what precisely i am supposed to do with >> these programs and see if there are other technological workarounds. >> >> >> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >> >>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 1:33 PM, minh ha wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I am currently applying for internships this summer, and I am looking >>> for some advice on how to handle addressing one of the requirements >>> for this particular internship. The internship is a fund-raising >>> internship where I would be creating online giving campaigns and >>> writing grants/getting in touch with donors. However, one of the >>> requirements is proficiency with adobi photo shop or similar program >>> to develop brochures. For obvious reasons, this requirement would be >>> extremely hard for me to fulfill, but other than that, it is a perfect >>> match for my skill set. How would you go about addressing an issue >>> like this in a cover letter or subsequent interview? Thanks for any >>> advice! >>> >>> Best, >>> Minh >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:12:51 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:12:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87DA25AC-EF15-442E-AC99-8D8A0EE56857@gmail.com> I agree that's success first needs to be defined before you can get to determining if someone is in fact successful. I however don't think that the buzzwords are pointless, because we use them and assign them meeting so they must be significant somehow. Many people (blind and sighted) have a difficult time defining success for themselves because they are often bombarded with what society sees as successful. But, if you'll indulge me (guess you kind of have no choice because you are reading this message, so you're kind of already indulging me) I think that, while success is ultimately viewed differently, we superficially view success as being happy, confident (self-assured and so on). People generally want something that is truly meaningful/fulfilling that occupies there time, friends and loved ones who share in and enhance their happiness and fulfillment, and some degree of security/comfort. If we achieve this, we feel pretty happy about ourselves or… Pretty successful in getting what we wanted. That's my thoughts. This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 27, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > > This entire discussion is pointless because no one has defined > successful. What is it? Is it getting a master's degree and job in > your field? Climbing a tall mountain? Working as a garbage collector > to feed and protect your husband and children? If I travel solo around > the world would you call me successful despite my disability, or laugh > at me because I don't have a job? If I have an expensive English > degree and work as a receptionist at an engineering firm am I now > considered "successful" even if I'm miserable and hate my job? If I > work at Target because I've got bills and responsibilities, am I > successful for getting a job or a failure for not having the > curiosity, intellect, training, adaptability -- or whatever other > characteristics you have identified in this thread? > > We go on and on with these useless terms and buzzwords without > defining them or considering that success to one person might be > failure to another. > > Brice > > >> On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At >> times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, >> you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you >> befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping >> outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my >> personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the >> mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, >> because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to >> access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be >> better than average and a little unique to really find the success you >> want. >> If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, >> we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably >> going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, >> and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, >> or >> something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, >> or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is >> a >> dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be >> a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but >> you >> got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but >> that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It is >> merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps >> catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for >> purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie >> McGinnity >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than >> our >> sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves >> look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because we >> are blind? >> >> Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over >> emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define >> them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary >> skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We >> are not just blind; we are people. >> >> A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception of >> blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating >> and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but >> I >> bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities >> will >> work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently >> because >> of my blindness. >> Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? >> >>> On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >>> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >>> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >>> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >>> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >>> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >>> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >>> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >>> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >>> willing to explore, and adapt. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>> blind people >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >>> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >>> likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >>> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >>> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >>> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >>> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >>> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >>> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >>> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >>> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Best, >>> Phil >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> 0gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >>> com >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation >> of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of >> Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> "For >> God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who >> believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:19:06 2014 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:19:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Message-ID: <533495ce.4719ec0a.33f5.6438@mx.google.com> Brice, you make a good point. Successful is an abstract word with no true definition. But in my opinion, being successful is doing what you want to do and being good at it, whether you're a successful novelist, doctor, or garbage collector. It's knowing that you are good at something, knowing that you have the skills and ability necessary to further your personal ambitions, whatever they may be. As to traits of successful blind people, one important one that no one has mentioned (and I agree with everything that has already been mentioned) is acceptance of blindness. I've known people who have denied their blindness. I was talking to a guy I'd just met on a school trip, and I made some casual reference as to him being blind. "I'm visually impaired! I can still see stuff, so I'm not blind!" he snapped at me. We must come to term with our blindness. If we are comfortable with it and accept it as a fact of life that we cannot change, we will grow in confidence. And if we grow in confidence, people will notice that. Whereas if we are uncomfortable with our blindness or inefficient because of a refusal to accknowledge blindness and receive training, people will notice us for an entirely different reason. They will give us "the pity treatment" as someone earlier said. This is a great discussion and I look forward to getting more input. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brice Smith wrote: You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be better than average and a little unique to really find the success you want. If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, or something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is a dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but you got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It is merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because we are blind? Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We are not just blind; we are people. A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be willing to explore, and adapt. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Hi all, I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. Thanks! Best, Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%4 0gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g mail. com -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia ms2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 9%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:28:20 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:28:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] article I've written Message-ID: Here's an article I've on Effective comunication with your DBS councilor. http://dbs.myflorida.com/about-us/DBS-Newsletter/2014-03/index.html From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:29:46 2014 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:29:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <533495ce.4719ec0a.33f5.6438@mx.google.com> References: <533495ce.4719ec0a.33f5.6438@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <373B3916-ADB3-4593-A902-71D264D793BC@gmail.com> Yes, part of success is to be comfortable in one's skin. However you choose to identify yourself is secondary to you being comfortable in your own skin. You can be comfortable in your blindness yet not call yourself blind nor would you prefer others to call you blind. Someone who is of Japanese dissent my call themselves American or Asian American or Japanese-American or Japanese. If they're doing what they want to do, living the life they want to live, comfortable where they are then they can be called successful. Since this is very much a relative term, who can argue against it? This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Mar 27, 2014, at 2:19 PM, Sophie Trist wrote: > > Brice, you make a good point. Successful is an abstract word with no true definition. But in my opinion, being successful is doing what you want to do and being good at it, whether you're a successful novelist, doctor, or garbage collector. It's knowing that you are good at something, knowing that you have the skills and ability necessary to further your personal ambitions, whatever they may be. As to traits of successful blind people, one important one that no one has mentioned (and I agree with everything that has already been mentioned) is acceptance of blindness. I've known people who have denied their blindness. I was talking to a guy I'd just met on a school trip, and I made some casual reference as to him being blind. "I'm visually impaired! I can still see stuff, so I'm not blind!" he snapped at me. We must come to term with our blindness. If we are comfortable with it and accept it as a fact of life that we cannot change, we will grow in confidence. And if we grow in confidence, people will notice that. Whereas if we are uncomfortable with our blindness or inefficient because of a refusal to accknowledge blindness and receive training, people will notice us for an entirely different reason. They will give us "the pity treatment" as someone earlier said. This is a great discussion and I look forward to getting more input. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brice Smith To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:57:12 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people > > This entire discussion is pointless because no one has defined > successful. What is it? Is it getting a master's degree and job in > your field? Climbing a tall mountain? Working as a garbage collector > to feed and protect your husband and children? If I travel solo around > the world would you call me successful despite my disability, or laugh > at me because I don't have a job? If I have an expensive English > degree and work as a receptionist at an engineering firm am I now > considered "successful" even if I'm miserable and hate my job? If I > work at Target because I've got bills and responsibilities, am I > successful for getting a job or a failure for not having the > curiosity, intellect, training, adaptability -- or whatever other > characteristics you have identified in this thread? > > We go on and on with these useless terms and buzzwords without > defining them or considering that success to one person might be > failure to another. > > Brice > > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At > times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, > you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you > befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping > outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my > personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the > mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, > because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to > access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be > better than average and a little unique to really find the success you > want. > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, > we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably > going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, > and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, > or > something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, > or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is > a > dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but > you > got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but > that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It is > merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps > catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for > purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie > McGinnity > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than > our > sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves > look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because we > are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over > emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define > them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary > skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We > are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception of > blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating > and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but > I > bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities > will > work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently > because > of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you > aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have > to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more > knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of > good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great > technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave > your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person > need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be > willing to explore, and adapt. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > Hi all, > > I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. > Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, > social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's > likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal > characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal > characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a > different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful > blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? > For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity > and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical > surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and > career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having > the courage to be different is important as a blind person. > What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? > Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. > Thanks! > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40g > mail. > com > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation > of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of > Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For > God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who > believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.willia > ms2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith31 > 9%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade > r%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Mar 27 22:08:23 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:08:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <373B3916-ADB3-4593-A902-71D264D793BC@gmail.com> References: <533495ce.4719ec0a.33f5.6438@mx.google.com> <373B3916-ADB3-4593-A902-71D264D793BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <370D13F0-3F01-44CB-ADF4-0069537392EE@fuse.net> Another thing that has sort of mentioned is being a go getter. Seeing something that you want to do and then doing it. If you are able to have this strength other things such as ambition and confidence go hand in hand. So basically if you have a specific goal in mind and you apply these strengths and get what you want that is success to me. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 27, 2014, at 5:29 PM, Darian wrote: > > Yes, part of success is to be comfortable in one's skin. > However you choose to identify yourself is secondary to you being comfortable in your own skin. You can be comfortable in your blindness yet not call yourself blind nor would you prefer others to call you blind. > Someone who is of Japanese dissent my call themselves American or Asian American or Japanese-American or Japanese. > If they're doing what they want to do, living the life they want to live, comfortable where they are then they can be called successful. Since this is very much a relative term, who can argue against it? > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > >> On Mar 27, 2014, at 2:19 PM, Sophie Trist wrote: >> >> Brice, you make a good point. Successful is an abstract word with no true definition. But in my opinion, being successful is doing what you want to do and being good at it, whether you're a successful novelist, doctor, or garbage collector. It's knowing that you are good at something, knowing that you have the skills and ability necessary to further your personal ambitions, whatever they may be. As to traits of successful blind people, one important one that no one has mentioned (and I agree with everything that has already been mentioned) is acceptance of blindness. I've known people who have denied their blindness. I was talking to a guy I'd just met on a school trip, and I made some casual reference as to him being blind. "I'm visually impaired! I can still see stuff, so I'm not blind!" he snapped at me. We must come to term with our blindness. If we are comfortable with it and accept it as a fact of life that we cannot change, we will grow in confidence. And if we grow in confidence, people will notice that. Whereas if we are uncomfortable with our blindness or inefficient because of a refusal to accknowledge blindness and receive training, people will notice us for an entirely different reason. They will give us "the pity treatment" as someone earlier said. This is a great discussion and I look forward to getting more input. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Brice Smith > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Date sent: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:57:12 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people >> >> This entire discussion is pointless because no one has defined >> successful. What is it? Is it getting a master's degree and job in >> your field? Climbing a tall mountain? Working as a garbage collector >> to feed and protect your husband and children? If I travel solo around >> the world would you call me successful despite my disability, or laugh >> at me because I don't have a job? If I have an expensive English >> degree and work as a receptionist at an engineering firm am I now >> considered "successful" even if I'm miserable and hate my job? If I >> work at Target because I've got bills and responsibilities, am I >> successful for getting a job or a failure for not having the >> curiosity, intellect, training, adaptability -- or whatever other >> characteristics you have identified in this thread? >> >> We go on and on with these useless terms and buzzwords without >> defining them or considering that success to one person might be >> failure to another. >> >> Brice >> >> >> On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At >> times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 27 22:10:05 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:10:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com><012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2261D196AF3945E2A12CBE39E071C1FE@OwnerPC> I agree with Minh, its about your experiences and work ethic that get people employed. I think we can be average, as long as we have initiative to apply our skills and get things done. I also think the education thing is more what you learned and if you can apply it. True a masters is needed for some professions; usually counseling and social work come to mind. But I think only like 25 percent of the population has BA degrees; so its still a marketable thing to have one. A lot of college grads have a degree and forget most of the stuff they learned. But, if you actually kept it in your head, and applied that to a later job, that’s what counts. You can still get a job with a BA or BS; its what you do with the knowledge you gained and your other activities that will help in the job search. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: minh ha Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people I think you're oversimplifying the problem. Firstly, what does it mean to be average anyway? I'm an average student in that I work hard, get good grades, involve myself in extracurriculars and community service. There are thousands and thousands of students out there that are just "average" and they still get jobs and are successfully employed. It's not really about being unique, but about the experiences that you have and your work ethic. Employers are looking for people that will contribute 100% into their job and it doesn't matter if you have an undergrad or grad degree, they are still going to hold you to the same standards. It's a huge misconception out there that if you have a masters, it automatically elevates your chances of getting a job, and it's not true at all. At my service placement, I help clients search for jobs and a bunch of them have masters degrees and still can't gain employment. As for characteristics of successful blind people, I don't know why the distinction "blind" has to be associated at all. I'm running through a list of successful blind and sighted people I know and there's not one single characteristic that they do not share. On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At > times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, > you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you > befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping > outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my > personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the > mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, > because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to > access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be > better than average and a little unique to really find the success you > want. > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, > we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably > going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, > and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, > or > something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, > or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is > a > dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to > be > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but > you > got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but > that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It > is > merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps > catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for > purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie > McGinnity > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than > our > sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves > look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because > we > are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over > emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define > them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary > skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We > are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception > of > blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating > and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but > I > bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities > will > work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently > because > of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >> willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >> likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >> com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation > of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of > Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For > God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who > believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 23:16:03 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:16:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Advice on internship In-Reply-To: <2F26F3FCD4B6470F8D8802212719ECB8@robert9999b7cf> References: <758EF258-5C5B-4A30-BD27-CC5BC18FC42C@gmail.com> <2F26F3FCD4B6470F8D8802212719ECB8@robert9999b7cf> Message-ID: Ya I probably wouldn't mention PhotoShop at all in the cover letter but would really focus there on how I can perform at the other duties. I would wait to mention it at the interview and stress how I can prepare all the written content for the brochures and then collaborate with another sighted employee to make it visually appealing. Good luck! Arielle On 3/27/14, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Be honest! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "zeynep sule yilmaz" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Advice on internship > > >> Hi Minh, >> >> I would disclose it at my interview. You will have chance to convince >> employer for your qualifications. If they say that is the main duty, >> you can offer possible solutions. Everyone is looking for from his or >> her perspective so final decision is totally yours. Research says >> discrimination occurs less through in person communication. >> >> Good luck! >> >> Zeynep >> >> >> 2014-03-27 15:46 GMT-05:00, Darian : >>> Hello, >>> Forgive the vagueness here, as I don't necessarily know what exactly I >>> would >>> say. >>> What's coming to mind right now is to assess how much of what I'm doing >>> has >>> to do with those programs. If a good majority of the work has to do with >>> >>> it >>> then this might not be an appropriate opportunity for me because I'm >>> spending more time on the workaround then being productive. >>> >>> This seems not to be the case however, so I would look into how I would >>> work >>> around this particular aspect. If the barrier I'm facing is small >>> enough, >>> maybe I can request an assistant on staff or a fellow intern to complete >>> >>> the >>> task. Maybe I would look into what precisely i am supposed to do with >>> these programs and see if there are other technological workarounds. >>> >>> >>> This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. >>> >>>> On Mar 27, 2014, at 1:33 PM, minh ha wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I am currently applying for internships this summer, and I am looking >>>> for some advice on how to handle addressing one of the requirements >>>> for this particular internship. The internship is a fund-raising >>>> internship where I would be creating online giving campaigns and >>>> writing grants/getting in touch with donors. However, one of the >>>> requirements is proficiency with adobi photo shop or similar program >>>> to develop brochures. For obvious reasons, this requirement would be >>>> extremely hard for me to fulfill, but other than that, it is a perfect >>>> match for my skill set. How would you go about addressing an issue >>>> like this in a cover letter or subsequent interview? Thanks for any >>>> advice! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blacklotus86%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From marissat789 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 00:17:18 2014 From: marissat789 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:17:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] music mailing list Message-ID: <5334bfa0.0382440a.6009.ffffa2ec@mx.google.com> Hi guys, I lost the email address to the music list when I switched machine's. Can someone please give it to me? Thanks. From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 01:12:19 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:12:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> Phil, A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. Isn't that obvious? But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in success. Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat sighted applicants. At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as to be labeled a minor inconvenience. Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post on the subject, which you can read at the link below: http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Hi all, I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. Thanks! Best, Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Fri Mar 28 01:26:31 2014 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:26:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is no room for error. Think of yourselves as the big elephant in the room, constantly sticcking-out like a sore thumb. You are always being judged even when you do something that a "normal" person does. That's life, and you got to love it, deal with it, and learn that this is what it is. Always try to achieve and/or overachieve. Never, never, try to take a short-cut, or take the easy way out. Finally, be careful, really careful who you make connections with or ask for help from. Some will always hold it against you; or use your intended help request(S) against you in some way at a later date. This is especially the case with social media, etc. Basically, be perfect. Every one who is different goes through this in our culture. Sent from my iPad > On Mar 27, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Julie McGinnity" wrote: > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better > than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to > make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not > overlook us because we are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't > over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics > that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, > learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills > in other areas. We are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread > misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and > focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no > way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who > worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a > certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > >> On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you aren't >> good >> at something, then they don't count for as much; you have to make yourself >> useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more knowledge than everyone >> else around you. Understanding the value of good training, personal >> development, a wealth of knowledge, and great technique. Learn any thing >> you can. Learn also how to interweave your blindness skills into the >> normal >> skills of what you as a person need to no. Learn what you do, and what you >> don't do. Also, be willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind >> people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social >> and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood >> of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a >> moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a >> blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and >> behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what >> makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and >> exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, >> intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career >> possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage >> to >> be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 03:09:20 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 23:09:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006e01cf4a33$1d5c9cf0$5815d6d0$@gmail.com> This is a great discussion folks; I'm loving it. I'm seeing on hear that some people are saying to have a great work ethic, and work twice as hard. My theory is to Have a great work ethic, and work smart. Work smart, not hard. Proper application of effort/force. I work hard in spurts, and do so when necessary. Twice as hard burns you out. To deny the blindness is a factor and is irrelevant is to like Joe said, deny the unemployment rate. If it is irrelevant, to you, then why are you on the list? It is what it is guys. I never said that you have to have or do any one thing, but if you do what your sighted counterparts around you do, you will usually find yourself lost in the shuffle. I've trained blind people for years in computers and in customer service. I've seen this time and time again. You just have to have a little more than simple hard work; unfortunately, like most minorities, you just have to raise your level. Remember, your sighted counterparts are also in many cases subscribing to the hard work theory. When I was most of you guys' age, I would have given anything to have someone tell me that, and to show me how to blend my skills. Don't get caught up on semantics and precise definitions; I am not going to define them for you. And if you want to find outliers and arguments to refute my claim, then so be it; please do so, knock yourself out. I don't care. I am only speaking from my observations, and my own experiences. One more thing. I read Joe's blog; it's great. Make sure that you love and have a passion for what you do, and no what it is you want to do. That burning desire is a kindled flame that will burn when all else seems to fail and if tended properly, will carry you through. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Phil, A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. Isn't that obvious? But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in success. Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat sighted applicants. At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as to be labeled a minor inconvenience. Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post on the subject, which you can read at the link below: http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Hi all, I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. Thanks! Best, Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 03:24:01 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:24:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <006e01cf4a33$1d5c9cf0$5815d6d0$@gmail.com> References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> <006e01cf4a33$1d5c9cf0$5815d6d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, The oft-quoted NFB mantra is that "with proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere nuisance". The "with proper training and opportunity" caveat is huge and, I think, under-appreciated. Some folks think the NFB is saying that blindness is a mere nuisance for everyone, but that's not true; it's only a nuisance for those with training and opportunity or in situations where opportunity is present. The real problem is that too many of us still lack either proper training, sufficient opportunity, or both. If all of us had training and opportunity, blindness simply would no longer be a problem for our success. I know in my life, in areas where I have had proper training and opportunity, blindness is a non-issue. In other areas where I haven't been given good skills or where others deny me opportunity, blindness becomes an obstacle. So instead of blaming blindness for our problems or praising ourselves and others for "overcoming" blindness, we really should be seeking training and opportunity and calling attention to situations where it is denied us. Keep in mind, too, that sighted people also require training and opportunity to be successful. The sighted person who lacks education or financial resources is still at a disadvantage in our society. So it's not about blindness as much as it is about the fact that blind people are still placed in a marginalized position where training and opportunity are lacking. Arielle On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > This is a great discussion folks; I'm loving it. I'm seeing on hear that > some people are saying to have a great work ethic, and work twice as hard. > My theory is to Have a great work ethic, and work smart. Work smart, not > hard. Proper application of effort/force. I work hard in spurts, and do > so > when necessary. Twice as hard burns you out. To deny the blindness is a > factor and is irrelevant is to like Joe said, deny the unemployment rate. > If it is irrelevant, to you, then why are you on the list? It is what it > is > guys. I never said that you have to have or do any one thing, but if you > do > what your sighted counterparts around you do, you will usually find > yourself lost in the shuffle. I've trained blind people for years in > computers and in customer service. I've seen this time and time again. > You just have to have a little more than simple hard work; unfortunately, > like most minorities, you just have to raise your level. Remember, your > sighted counterparts are also in many cases subscribing to the hard work > theory. > When I was most of you guys' age, I would have given anything to have > someone tell me that, and to show me how to blend my skills. Don't get > caught up on semantics and precise definitions; I am not going to define > them for you. And if you want to find outliers and arguments to refute my > claim, then so be it; please do so, knock yourself out. I don't care. I > am > only speaking from my observations, and my own experiences. One more > thing. > I read Joe's blog; it's great. Make sure that you love and have a passion > for what you do, and no what it is you want to do. That burning desire is > a kindled flame that will burn when all else seems to fail and if tended > properly, will carry you through. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > Phil, > > A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. Isn't that > obvious? > > But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from the > people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in > success. > Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness is > irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the reality > that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a degree, > overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't succeed > there, > a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is slim. Is the person > willing to advocate for themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard > to achieve tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the > time? Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess > sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to succeed at > life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may > need to ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to > the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat > sighted applicants. > > At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to the NFB > notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. Were that > true, I believe we would have seen better progress where blind people are > concerned. Blindness presents certain unique challenges a person must > regularly overcome to excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process > easier, but I don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of > independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as > to be labeled a minor inconvenience. > > Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think pursuing > your > own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post on the subject, which > you can read at the link below: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind > people > > Hi all, > > I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. > Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social > and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood > of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a > moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a > blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and > behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what > makes you cite these traits? > For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and > exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, > intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career > possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage > to > be different is important as a blind person. > What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? > Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. > Thanks! > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Mar 28 05:19:33 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 22:19:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140327221715.054bb0f8@comcast.net> Good evening, Success, to me, is however one choses o measure such a potentially loaded term. So, if success is, as you say traveling the world and not have a "real" job then so be it, you see yourself as a success. fortoday, Car cell; 408-209-3239 one At 01:57 PM 3/27/2014, Brice Smith wrote: >This entire discussion is pointless because no one has defined >successful. What is it? Is it getting a master's degree and job in >your field? Climbing a tall mountain? Working as a garbage collector >to feed and protect your husband and children? If I travel solo around >the world would you call me successful despite my disability, or laugh >at me because I don't have a job? If I have an expensive English >degree and work as a receptionist at an engineering firm am I now >considered "successful" even if I'm miserable and hate my job? If I >work at Target because I've got bills and responsibilities, am I >successful for getting a job or a failure for not having the >curiosity, intellect, training, adaptability -- or whatever other >characteristics you have identified in this thread? > >We go on and on with these useless terms and buzzwords without >defining them or considering that success to one person might be >failure to another. > >Brice > > >On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At > > times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, > > you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you > > befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping > > outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my > > personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the > > mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, > > because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to > > access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be > > better than average and a little unique to really find the success you > > want. > > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, > > we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably > > going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, > > and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, > > or > > something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, > > or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is > > a > > dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you want to be > > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but > > you > > got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but > > that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really want. It is > > merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps > > catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for > > purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie > > McGinnity > > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > > blind people > > > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than > > our > > sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves > > look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us because we > > are blind? > > > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over > > emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define > > them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary > > skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We > > are not just blind; we are people. > > > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread misconception of > > blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating > > and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but > > I > > bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities > > will > > work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently > > because > > of my blindness. > > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > > > > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you > >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have > >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more > >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of > >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great > >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave > >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person > >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be > >> willing to explore, and adapt. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil > >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > >> blind people > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. > >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, > >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's > >> likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal > >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal > >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a > >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful > >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? > >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity > >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical > >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and > >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having > >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. > >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? > >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. > >> Thanks! > >> > >> Best, > >> Phil > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > >> 0gmail > >> .com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. > >> com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Julie McG > > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation > > of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of > > Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > > "For > > God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who > > believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." > > John 3:16 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From robin-melvin at comcast.net Fri Mar 28 07:45:48 2014 From: robin-melvin at comcast.net (Robin) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 00:45:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140327221715.054bb0f8@comcast.net> References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> <012e01cf49ed$194b0f20$4be12d60$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20140327221715.054bb0f8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140328002232.0b1ddc78@comcast.net> Personally, I believe one of the most important personal traits to have is the ability to know when to employ the use of interpendence as opposed to independence. Everybody believes being completely autonomous should be the goal for any successful TOTALLY BLIND and/or LOW Vision person, but I beg to disagree. I presume shopping OnLine is preferred, but how is the greater public educated and/or exposed to Blindness if TOTALLY BLIND & Low Vision people perform most if not all of their shopping needs OnLine? To me this is no different than a blind person being secluded in private and isolated from the greater public. Independent blind travelers, who always refuse aid are, in my humble opinion, viewed by Ol'Sighty associally inept due to their limited interactions. I presume independent TOTALLY BLIND and/or Low Vision people social interactions are isolated to eemployment/Education and Family/friends. In my opinion, this doesn't help the public (Ol'Sighty) to feel more comfortable around blind people. Social interactions are probably the most important quality a TOTALLY BLIND and/or Low Vision person can have. If an employer is fond of you, then I presume he/she would bend over backwards to teach you the skills you would require/need to perform the duties of the job, but his/her other employees have to feel comfortable working you and interacting with you. I also presume the environment at work/employment is crucial because people like to work with others they can get along with even if they don't like them. just My opinion. At 10:19 PM 3/27/2014, you wrote: >Good evening, > > Success, to me, is however one choses o measure such a > potentially loaded term. So, if success is, as you say traveling > the world and not have a "real" job then so be it, you see yourself > as a success. >fortoday, Car >cell; 408-209-3239 > >one At 01:57 PM 3/27/2014, Brice Smith wrote: >>This entire discussion is pointless because no one has defined >>successful. What is it? Is it getting a master's degree and job in >>your field? Climbing a tall mountain? Working as a garbage collector >>to feed and protect your husband and children? If I travel solo around >>the world would you call me successful despite my disability, or laugh >>at me because I don't have a job? If I have an expensive English >>degree and work as a receptionist at an engineering firm am I now >>considered "successful" even if I'm miserable and hate my job? If I >>work at Target because I've got bills and responsibilities, am I >>successful for getting a job or a failure for not having the >>curiosity, intellect, training, adaptability -- or whatever other >>characteristics you have identified in this thread? >> >>We go on and on with these useless terms and buzzwords without >>defining them or considering that success to one person might be >>failure to another. >> >>Brice >> >> >>On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> > You do have to be better than the majority; it is not fair, but you do. At >> > times, you will get a little bit of a break, but to be really successful, >> > you have to be better than average to make people decide that hiring you >> > befriending you, or loving you, or what-evering you is worth stepping >> > outside of their comfort zone. While I won't dare hold everyone to my >> > personal opinion and say it is gospel, if you are just average run of the >> > mill, technically, you would be counted as less than your counterparts, >> > because they have nothing as a barrier for the boss, friend, or lover to >> > access their averageness. Spin it anyway you want, but you've got to be >> > better than average and a little unique to really find the success you >> > want. >> > If you and a sighted person go for the same job with the same credentials, >> > we'll use an undergrad degree in sociology, the sighted person is probably >> > going to get the entry level job. Get your master's degree in counseling, >> > and stand out. There is less competition, and you are seen as an expert, >> > or >> > something close. Average, or below average may get you the pity treatment, >> > or you may even get the customer service job in the call center, but it is >> > a >> > dead end job for sure. You don't want to just be the token; you >> want to be >> > a real contributor. Not that everyone has to get a master's degree, but >> > you >> > got my drift. You want people to respect you. Admiration is alright, but >> > that does not get you hired, dated, or anything else you really >> want. It is >> > merely the gateway to respect, and respect of your piers is what helps >> > catapult you to actual success. Okay, I'm leaving out spirituality for >> > purposes of this conversation, but once again, you got my drift. >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie >> > McGinnity >> > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:26 PM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> > blind people >> > >> > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better than >> > our >> > sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to make ourselves >> > look particularly successful so that others will not overlook us >> because we >> > are blind? >> > >> > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't over >> > emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics that define >> > them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, learn necessary >> > skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills in other areas. We >> > are not just blind; we are people. >> > >> > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread >> misconception of >> > blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and focusing on educating >> > and advocating. Personally, I think this is no way to live our lives, but >> > I >> > bet that I am not the only one who worries about how certain activities >> > will >> > work for me or whether a certain professor will treat me differently >> > because >> > of my blindness. >> > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? >> > >> > On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >> >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >> >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >> >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >> >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >> >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >> >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >> >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >> >> willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> >> blind people >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >> >> likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> >> 0gmail >> >> .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. >> >> com >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Julie McG >> > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation >> > of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of >> > Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> > "For >> > God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who >> > believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." >> > John 3:16 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> > .com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/robin-melvin%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Mar 28 12:00:43 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 05:00:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Advice on internship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140328044758.01f00a98@comcast.net> Good morning, Minh, This seems simple you might not bring this problem up in a cover let, or resum`e but in the interview. Describe in the interview your plans to collaborate with another person on the project to take care of the visual requirements of the job. Be sure to point out the way your knowledge of whichever technical know-how of computers ought to prove simply invaluable while your team endeavors to put together fundraising campaigns. And, as has been said by some of us, you might not emphasize not being able to interface with graphics, as your facility with that over which you do have control might make that little fact pretty irrelevant since you will simply kick technical ass. 3/27/2014, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >I would probably say that I am blind, but can do all of the job >requirements except that. Will there be other employees with the >same responsibilities? >Mikayla > >Sent from my iPad > >On Mar 27, 2014, at 4:33 PM, minh ha wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I am currently applying for internships this summer, and I am looking > > for some advice on how to handle addressing one of the requirements > > for this particular internship. The internship is a fund-raising > > internship where I would be creating online giving campaigns and > > writing grants/getting in touch with donors. However, one of the > > requirements is proficiency with adobi photo shop or similar program > > to develop brochures. For obvious reasons, this requirement would be > > extremely hard for me to fulfill, but other than that, it is a perfect > > match for my skill set. How would you go about addressing an issue > > like this in a cover letter or subsequent interview? Thanks for any > > advice! > > > > Best, > > Minh > > > > -- > > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 12:37:11 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:37:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Advice on internship In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140328044758.01f00a98@comcast.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20140328044758.01f00a98@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00c501cf4a82$71539260$53fab720$@gmail.com> First off, do not put that in your cover letter. What ever you do. In the interview, have mapped out the ways by which you will be able to facilitate that part of the job being accomplished whether that is colaborateing with another employee or not. Make sure the employer knows where your skills stop, and the coworker's begin. Explain to them how your technology works at least on a basic level. You've got to have it worked out before you get there. The employer needs to feel comfortable with your ability to do the job. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 8:01 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Advice on internship Good morning, Minh, This seems simple you might not bring this problem up in a cover let, or resum`e but in the interview. Describe in the interview your plans to collaborate with another person on the project to take care of the visual requirements of the job. Be sure to point out the way your knowledge of whichever technical know-how of computers ought to prove simply invaluable while your team endeavors to put together fundraising campaigns. And, as has been said by some of us, you might not emphasize not being able to interface with graphics, as your facility with that over which you do have control might make that little fact pretty irrelevant since you will simply kick technical ass. 3/27/2014, Mikayla Gephart wrote: >I would probably say that I am blind, but can do all of the job >requirements except that. Will there be other employees with the same >responsibilities? >Mikayla > >Sent from my iPad > >On Mar 27, 2014, at 4:33 PM, minh ha wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I am currently applying for internships this summer, and I am > > looking for some advice on how to handle addressing one of the > > requirements for this particular internship. The internship is a > > fund-raising internship where I would be creating online giving > > campaigns and writing grants/getting in touch with donors. However, > > one of the requirements is proficiency with adobi photo shop or > > similar program to develop brochures. For obvious reasons, this > > requirement would be extremely hard for me to fulfill, but other > > than that, it is a perfect match for my skill set. How would you go > > about addressing an issue like this in a cover letter or subsequent > > interview? Thanks for any advice! > > > > Best, > > Minh > > > > -- > > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the > > dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icl > > oud.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. >net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From lizzym0827 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 13:44:14 2014 From: lizzym0827 at gmail.com (lizzy) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:44:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College Message-ID: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> Hi All, I'm thinking about taking some form of a martial art (more specifically Judo, Karate or Tae Kwon Do) in the fall semester. They are all club sports, so no one has to have prior experience to join. I'm wondering if I should speak to the instructor before coming to a class? Should I try to learn some of the movements one-on-one before class and then practice them while there? Or should I just show up and go with the flow? Are martial arts typically very visual? If anyone has experience with or knows someone who has done these martial arts before could you give me some pointers. I honestly have never seen any of the moves so I don't really know what to expect. I've done other sports before but nothing like this so as always, any advice or information you can give me would be fantastic! Thanks, Lizzy From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 13:58:37 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 09:58:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College In-Reply-To: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> References: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00df01cf4a8d$d1a8ab90$74fa02b0$@gmail.com> I would recommend judo to start with. Of course, that depends upon your level of sight, but Judo is very tactual. There are methods for becoming skilled at kick punch systems, but for many of us, judo is a great sport. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of lizzy Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College Hi All, I'm thinking about taking some form of a martial art (more specifically Judo, Karate or Tae Kwon Do) in the fall semester. They are all club sports, so no one has to have prior experience to join. I'm wondering if I should speak to the instructor before coming to a class? Should I try to learn some of the movements one-on-one before class and then practice them while there? Or should I just show up and go with the flow? Are martial arts typically very visual? If anyone has experience with or knows someone who has done these martial arts before could you give me some pointers. I honestly have never seen any of the moves so I don't really know what to expect. I've done other sports before but nothing like this so as always, any advice or information you can give me would be fantastic! Thanks, Lizzy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 14:01:10 2014 From: rahul.bajaj1038 at gmail.com (Rahul Bajaj) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:31:10 +0530 Subject: [nabs-l] Visually impaired law students Message-ID: Hello everyone, I hope this message finds you well. I am Rahul Bajaj from Nagpur, India and am blind since birth on account of Leber's congenital amaurosis (LCA). I am a 2nd year law student and would love to interact with other visually impaired law students in order to discuss the best strategies for circumventing the problems that law school entails. So, I would be very grateful if all law students reading this mail would be so kind as to respond to this post or mail me off-list. I look forward to interacting with you. Cheers, Rahul Sent from my iPhone From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Mar 28 14:18:12 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:18:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College In-Reply-To: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> References: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <533584A4.3070003@comcast.net> My current boyfriend is a tai kwon do champion and has done it for years, especially during the teen years. I'm sure he could give you some pointers. I tried judo, but the place where we do it in Denver was too far away from where I lived at the time. Anyway, if you have any questions, you can talk to me. Beth On 3/28/2014 7:44 AM, lizzy wrote: > Hi All, > I'm thinking about taking some form of a martial art (more > specifically Judo, Karate or Tae Kwon Do) in the fall semester. They > are all club sports, so no one has to have prior experience to join. > I'm wondering if I should speak to the instructor before coming to a > class? Should I try to learn some of the movements one-on-one before > class and then practice them while there? Or should I just show up and > go with the flow? Are martial arts typically very visual? If anyone > has experience with or knows someone who has done these martial arts > before could you give me some pointers. I honestly have never seen > any of the moves so I don't really know what to expect. I've done > other sports before but nothing like this so as always, any advice or > information you can give me would be fantastic! > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Fri Mar 28 14:32:42 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 10:32:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Visually impaired law students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Rahul, Have you tried posting this email to the lawyers email list? I see more law students take part on that email list rather than this one, so you may get a better response by posting this email to the lawyers email list. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Rahul Bajaj" Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 10:01 AM To: Subject: [nabs-l] Visually impaired law students > Hello everyone, > > I hope this message finds you well. > I am Rahul Bajaj from Nagpur, India and am blind since birth on account > of Leber's congenital amaurosis (LCA). > I am a 2nd year law student and would love to interact with other visually > impaired law students in order to discuss the best strategies for > circumventing the problems that law school entails. > So, I would be very grateful if all law students reading this mail would > be so kind as to respond to this post or mail me off-list. > I look forward to interacting with you. > > Cheers, > Rahul > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 15:17:47 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 11:17:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College In-Reply-To: <533584A4.3070003@comcast.net> References: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> <533584A4.3070003@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi, I took karate while in high school, and really loved it. I was in a really regimented program, which had us come to 3 hour long classes a week. My instructors were very good about working with me, and often used me as an example for the rest of the class. It helped that, aside from a dad who was taking the class along with his son, I was the only one who wasn't 6 or so, so it helped the other students see how the moves should go since I was more the instructor's size. If I was doing something wrong they would pull me aside to correct what I was doing wrong, then send me back into the rotation so I could practice the moves the corrected way. The one hiccup in the thing was sparring, and unfortunately it was what forced me to stop karate just before earning my blue belt. My instructors did place special emphasis on blocking for me, and I was pretty good and quick at it, but my eye condition is so tempramental that getting hit in the head or face is risky, and it wasn't a risk that neither my parents and I were willing to take. I still brush up on what I know from belts white through orange every once in a while to stay sharp, and I've even managed to remember a lot of the Japanese terminology. I have heard of totally blind people earning their black belts, even in different degrees, and my instructor said he competed against a totally blind guy who was very good. So, it is possible to go as far as you want to with karate, and it really is a lot of fun. Had I not had issues with getting hit and my retinas becoming unstable, I would have loved to continue myself. I would highly recommend it though; it is really fun, and is a great way to get exercise. On 3/28/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: > My current boyfriend is a tai kwon do champion and has done it for > years, especially during the teen years. I'm sure he could give you > some pointers. I tried judo, but the place where we do it in Denver was > too far away from where I lived at the time. Anyway, if you have any > questions, you can talk to me. > Beth > On 3/28/2014 7:44 AM, lizzy wrote: >> Hi All, >> I'm thinking about taking some form of a martial art (more >> specifically Judo, Karate or Tae Kwon Do) in the fall semester. They >> are all club sports, so no one has to have prior experience to join. >> I'm wondering if I should speak to the instructor before coming to a >> class? Should I try to learn some of the movements one-on-one before >> class and then practice them while there? Or should I just show up and >> go with the flow? Are martial arts typically very visual? If anyone >> has experience with or knows someone who has done these martial arts >> before could you give me some pointers. I honestly have never seen >> any of the moves so I don't really know what to expect. I've done >> other sports before but nothing like this so as always, any advice or >> information you can give me would be fantastic! >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 15:30:43 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 11:30:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College In-Reply-To: References: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> <533584A4.3070003@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00ec01cf4a9a$afa77500$0ef65f00$@gmail.com> Agreed Kaiti. I practice a variety of striking techniques; you can find a way if you have the desire to do so You n eed a good instructor. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 11:18 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Athletics in College Hi, I took karate while in high school, and really loved it. I was in a really regimented program, which had us come to 3 hour long classes a week. My instructors were very good about working with me, and often used me as an example for the rest of the class. It helped that, aside from a dad who was taking the class along with his son, I was the only one who wasn't 6 or so, so it helped the other students see how the moves should go since I was more the instructor's size. If I was doing something wrong they would pull me aside to correct what I was doing wrong, then send me back into the rotation so I could practice the moves the corrected way. The one hiccup in the thing was sparring, and unfortunately it was what forced me to stop karate just before earning my blue belt. My instructors did place special emphasis on blocking for me, and I was pretty good and quick at it, but my eye condition is so tempramental that getting hit in the head or face is risky, and it wasn't a risk that neither my parents and I were willing to take. I still brush up on what I know from belts white through orange every once in a while to stay sharp, and I've even managed to remember a lot of the Japanese terminology. I have heard of totally blind people earning their black belts, even in different degrees, and my instructor said he competed against a totally blind guy who was very good. So, it is possible to go as far as you want to with karate, and it really is a lot of fun. Had I not had issues with getting hit and my retinas becoming unstable, I would have loved to continue myself. I would highly recommend it though; it is really fun, and is a great way to get exercise. On 3/28/14, Beth Taurasi wrote: > My current boyfriend is a tai kwon do champion and has done it for > years, especially during the teen years. I'm sure he could give you > some pointers. I tried judo, but the place where we do it in Denver > was too far away from where I lived at the time. Anyway, if you have > any questions, you can talk to me. > Beth > On 3/28/2014 7:44 AM, lizzy wrote: >> Hi All, >> I'm thinking about taking some form of a martial art (more >> specifically Judo, Karate or Tae Kwon Do) in the fall semester. They >> are all club sports, so no one has to have prior experience to join. >> I'm wondering if I should speak to the instructor before coming to a >> class? Should I try to learn some of the movements one-on-one before >> class and then practice them while there? Or should I just show up >> and go with the flow? Are martial arts typically very visual? If >> anyone has experience with or knows someone who has done these >> martial arts before could you give me some pointers. I honestly have >> never seen any of the moves so I don't really know what to expect. >> I've done other sports before but nothing like this so as always, any >> advice or information you can give me would be fantastic! >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%4 >> 0comcast.net >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 16:08:48 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 12:08:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College In-Reply-To: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> References: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Lizzy, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing Karate, but I don't do it at school, I do it outside of school! I started doing it last augus, and I really like it a lot, I'm actually a yellow belt now. Just to let you know, I'm actually the first blind student in my class! I actually attend a Saturday class which is a class where students that have some kind of dissability works one to one. In fact, one of my friend invited me and she told the Sensei that I was blind, and he started working with me one to one, and now he makes me work with some of the students that are in his regular classes that volunteer to help in that day, but he also works with me when they are not available. And once in a while I come to one of his classes that are held on the week. I never did Karate before, and I really enjoy it a lot! I recommend you take Karate! I think the first thing you should do is talk to your instructor first, and tell him or her that you are visually impaired, and then telll him that you are willing to learn the moves if he teach you one to one first for a two months or so, and then he or she can assign you a student that can help you and both of you can practice together and then he or she can come to check on you both! For the first time learning the moves could be difficult, but not impossible! If you have any questions, you can write me offlist or you can write me on list ok? Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless! :) -----Original Message----- From: lizzy Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College Hi All, I'm thinking about taking some form of a martial art (more specifically Judo, Karate or Tae Kwon Do) in the fall semester. They are all club sports, so no one has to have prior experience to join. I'm wondering if I should speak to the instructor before coming to a class? Should I try to learn some of the movements one-on-one before class and then practice them while there? Or should I just show up and go with the flow? Are martial arts typically very visual? If anyone has experience with or knows someone who has done these martial arts before could you give me some pointers. I honestly have never seen any of the moves so I don't really know what to expect. I've done other sports before but nothing like this so as always, any advice or information you can give me would be fantastic! Thanks, Lizzy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 16:37:19 2014 From: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com (helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 12:37:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Visually impaired law students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D8F9A68FAD44E11B892B0DA28183CB0@Helga> Hi Rahul, this is Helga. I'm actually not in Law School yet, I'm actually still completing my Associate of Arts degree. However, I would like to know regarding Law school when I get the chance to go there since I would like to become a Lawyer. I don't know if I can ask you some questions regarding it. Would you like me to do that? Only if you want of course! By the way, just to let you know, I'm actually part of the Blind Lawyers list that Elisabeth mention earlier. Would you like me to send you the link in order for you to subscribe to them? Just wondering. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless! -----Original Message----- From: Rahul Bajaj Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 10:01 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Visually impaired law students Hello everyone, I hope this message finds you well. I am Rahul Bajaj from Nagpur, India and am blind since birth on account of Leber's congenital amaurosis (LCA). I am a 2nd year law student and would love to interact with other visually impaired law students in order to discuss the best strategies for circumventing the problems that law school entails. So, I would be very grateful if all law students reading this mail would be so kind as to respond to this post or mail me off-list. I look forward to interacting with you. Cheers, Rahul Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 17:28:13 2014 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 11:28:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College In-Reply-To: References: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2D45A9B9-2C07-43D8-B548-8AC376B22149@gmail.com> Lizzie, I did judo for a couple years and am actually thinking about starting up again, as I live fairly close to a dojo now. My sensei was pretty good about demonstrating new throws and ground tech Meeks on me and letting me try them out on him until I'm more or less got them down. I also got some of the other more advanced students show me things when I needed help… And it worked pretty well. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 28, 2014, at 10:08 AM, wrote: > > Hi Lizzy, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing Karate, but I don't do it at school, I do it outside of school! I started doing it last augus, and I really like it a lot, I'm actually a yellow belt now. Just to let you know, I'm actually the first blind student in my class! I actually attend a Saturday class which is a class where students that have some kind of dissability works one to one. In fact, one of my friend invited me and she told the Sensei that I was blind, and he started working with me one to one, and now he makes me work with some of the students that are in his regular classes that volunteer to help in that day, but he also works with me when they are not available. And once in a while I come to one of his classes that are held on the week. I never did Karate before, and I really enjoy it a lot! I recommend you take Karate! I think the first thing you should do is talk to your instructor first, and tell him or her that you are visually impaired, and then telll him that you are willing to learn the moves if he teach you one to one first for a two months or so, and then he or she can assign you a student that can help you and both of you can practice together and then he or she can come to check on you both! For the first time learning the moves could be difficult, but not impossible! If you have any questions, you can write me offlist or you can write me on list ok? Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and God bless! :) > > -----Original Message----- From: lizzy > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:44 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College > > Hi All, > I'm thinking about taking some form of a martial art (more > specifically Judo, Karate or Tae Kwon Do) in the fall semester. > They are all club sports, so no one has to have prior experience > to join. I'm wondering if I should speak to the instructor > before coming to a class? Should I try to learn some of the > movements one-on-one before class and then practice them while > there? Or should I just show up and go with the flow? Are martial > arts typically very visual? If anyone has experience with or > knows someone who has done these martial arts before could you > give me some pointers. I honestly have never seen any of the > moves so I don't really know what to expect. I've done other > sports before but nothing like this so as always, any advice or > information you can give me would be fantastic! > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 28 21:23:40 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:23:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <67A4274EB508495CB138A01C99A6FC6F@OwnerPC> Hi Joe, very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low vision. I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news and weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness insignificant in doing what we want to do. Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your passions. Its also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. Go out and achieve big things for you. Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that field, is a rather successful thing you accomplished. You are smart. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joe Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Phil, A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. Isn't that obvious? But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in success. Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat sighted applicants. At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as to be labeled a minor inconvenience. Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post on the subject, which you can read at the link below: http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Hi all, I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. Thanks! Best, Phil _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 23:29:04 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:29:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> <006e01cf4a33$1d5c9cf0$5815d6d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301cf4add$8230ae50$86920af0$@gmail.com> Arielle, Yes, the "mantra" as you call it says that with proper training and opportunity blindness can be reduced to a mere nuisance, but the "proper training" naturally refers to the NFB's prescription of what proper training looks like, training which for a variety of reasons the majority of blind people will not receive. I am confident in my abilities despite my never having attended a training center. Nevertheless, my confidence is irrelevant when I encounter computer applications at work that are not accessible. I cannot make these programs work no matter how advanced my technology proficiency might be or no matter how much I preach the Section 508 gospel. I don't sit in a corner and bemoan my blindness, but nor do I view it as a mere nuisance. When I bought a house, I did so with an eye to a bus stop within walking distance. That may not sound like a unique argument considering our sighted friends could also desire a bus stop within walking distance, but the significant difference is that they have the marvelous choice of riding a bike or driving a car. They have the freedom to live in rural or urban environments and still get to work. True, we can hire drivers. So could our sighted friends. The difference is that for us it's a necessity. For them it's not, and so again this does not feel like a mere nuisance. Even the most well-trained blind person is not above everyday challenges: the guide dog user who may need to argue to be let into a restaurant, the student who may need to insist that their exam be offered in an accessible format, the job applicant who may have to persuade the employer to look past his blindness, etc. I would never argue that these things can't be conquered. Remember my whole tangent on not blaming the economy for unemployment? Yet, I am not immune to the reality that blindness poses a number of inconveniences my sighted peers do not have to face on their road to success. The NFB philosophy does an excellent job of motivating us to adjust to the world rather than expecting the world to adjust to us. It makes for a vigorous resolution amongst our own company, but then we hit the real world and discover reality has not quite caught up to our battle cry. It is true that our sighted friends have their own need for training. You mention sighted people need education and financial resources, but then, so do blind people. We can add education and money to everything else we have to do to overcome the everyday challenges of being blind. The fact that we should take your excellent suggestion and eradicate those scenarios where training and opportunities are denied us only proves the point that blindness presents its own set of obstacles we must eliminate before we can succeed elsewhere, for surely it should never be enough to say we are successful because we are independent. Independence, in my opinion, is only a means to an end. I liked how Dr. Jernigan put it: "We the blind must neither cop out by selling ourselves short with self-pity and myths of tragic deprivation, nor lie to ourselves by denying the existence of a problem." I totally agree with you that we should not blame blindness nor congratulate ourselves for overcoming it. However, I think we as a collective group will need to exercise the NFB philosophy in the context of real-world issues successful blind people face day in and day out. I'm glad, for example, that blind people working the federal contract circuit will theoretically make more money with the hikes in minimum wage. If minimum wage is what someone considers success, more power to them, but to the person who wants more, we should acknowledge the obstacles for what they are and face them head on. Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Hi all, The oft-quoted NFB mantra is that "with proper training and opportunity, blindness can be reduced to a mere nuisance". The "with proper training and opportunity" caveat is huge and, I think, under-appreciated. Some folks think the NFB is saying that blindness is a mere nuisance for everyone, but that's not true; it's only a nuisance for those with training and opportunity or in situations where opportunity is present. The real problem is that too many of us still lack either proper training, sufficient opportunity, or both. If all of us had training and opportunity, blindness simply would no longer be a problem for our success. I know in my life, in areas where I have had proper training and opportunity, blindness is a non-issue. In other areas where I haven't been given good skills or where others deny me opportunity, blindness becomes an obstacle. So instead of blaming blindness for our problems or praising ourselves and others for "overcoming" blindness, we really should be seeking training and opportunity and calling attention to situations where it is denied us. Keep in mind, too, that sighted people also require training and opportunity to be successful. The sighted person who lacks education or financial resources is still at a disadvantage in our society. So it's not about blindness as much as it is about the fact that blind people are still placed in a marginalized position where training and opportunity are lacking. Arielle On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: > This is a great discussion folks; I'm loving it. I'm seeing on hear > that some people are saying to have a great work ethic, and work twice as hard. > My theory is to Have a great work ethic, and work smart. Work smart, > not hard. Proper application of effort/force. I work hard in spurts, > and do so when necessary. Twice as hard burns you out. To deny the > blindness is a factor and is irrelevant is to like Joe said, deny the > unemployment rate. > If it is irrelevant, to you, then why are you on the list? It is what > it is guys. I never said that you have to have or do any one thing, > but if you do > what your sighted counterparts around you do, you will usually find > yourself lost in the shuffle. I've trained blind people for years in > computers and in customer service. I've seen this time and time again. > You just have to have a little more than simple hard work; > unfortunately, like most minorities, you just have to raise your > level. Remember, your sighted counterparts are also in many cases > subscribing to the hard work theory. > When I was most of you guys' age, I would have given anything to have > someone tell me that, and to show me how to blend my skills. Don't > get caught up on semantics and precise definitions; I am not going to > define them for you. And if you want to find outliers and arguments > to refute my claim, then so be it; please do so, knock yourself out. > I don't care. I am only speaking from my observations, and my own > experiences. One more thing. > I read Joe's blog; it's great. Make sure that you love and have a passion > for what you do, and no what it is you want to do. That burning desire is > a kindled flame that will burn when all else seems to fail and if > tended properly, will carry you through. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of > successful blind people > > Phil, > > A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. Isn't > that obvious? > > But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from > the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor > in success. > Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness is > irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the > reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a > degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't > succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is > slim. Is the person willing to advocate for themselves? Are they > willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks their sighted peers can > complete sometimes in half the time? Are they honest enough with > themselves to tell if they possess sufficient daily living, > technology, and communication skills to succeed at life, let alone the > workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may need to ponder > some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to the same > depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat > sighted applicants. > > At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to the > NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. > Were that true, I believe we would have seen better progress where > blind people are concerned. Blindness presents certain unique > challenges a person must regularly overcome to excel. Yes, building up > confidence makes the process easier, but I don't know that we have > reached a point in our evolution of independence that blindness is > irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as to be labeled a minor inconvenience. > > Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think > pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post on > the subject, which you can read at the link below: > > http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > Hi all, > > I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. > Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, > social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's > likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal > characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal > characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a > different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful > blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? > For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity > and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical > surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and > career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having > the courage to be different is important as a blind person. > What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? > Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. > Thanks! > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 23:37:20 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:37:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <011001cf49e4$b2ddb880$18992980$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401cf4ade$aa0da5d0$fe28f170$@gmail.com> Was that sarcasm, or were you for real? It seems overwrought. I mean hear hear for hard work and over-achievement, but to push hard because you think the world is always judging you seems like we're giving too much control to the rest of the world. If I fail at something, I think I'll do a good job all on my own feeling bad. Letting everyone else's scrutiny compound the situation would be too much damn pressure. LOL -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of wmodnl wmodnl Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people There is no room for error. Think of yourselves as the big elephant in the room, constantly sticcking-out like a sore thumb. You are always being judged even when you do something that a "normal" person does. That's life, and you got to love it, deal with it, and learn that this is what it is. Always try to achieve and/or overachieve. Never, never, try to take a short-cut, or take the easy way out. Finally, be careful, really careful who you make connections with or ask for help from. Some will always hold it against you; or use your intended help request(S) against you in some way at a later date. This is especially the case with social media, etc. Basically, be perfect. Every one who is different goes through this in our culture. Sent from my iPad > On Mar 27, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "Julie McGinnity" wrote: > > This brings up another discussion entirely: do we need to be better > than our sighted colleagues to make it in the world? Do we need to > make ourselves look particularly successful so that others will not > overlook us because we are blind? > > Here's one idea... I feel like blind people who are successful don't > over emphasize their blindness. It is one of many characteristics > that define them(us). We are blind, and we need to deal with it, > learn necessary skills, and continue to develop our talents and skills > in other areas. We are not just blind; we are people. > > A counter argument would assert that due to the widespread > misconception of blindness, we need to be constantly on our gard and > focusing on educating and advocating. Personally, I think this is no > way to live our lives, but I bet that I am not the only one who > worries about how certain activities will work for me or whether a > certain professor will treat me differently because of my blindness. > Maybe it's reality... What do you guys think? > >> On 3/27/14, justin williams wrote: >> Hard down skill. All the other intangibles are nice, but if you >> aren't good at something, then they don't count for as much; you have >> to make yourself useful to folks, and try to have a little bit more >> knowledge than everyone else around you. Understanding the value of >> good training, personal development, a wealth of knowledge, and great >> technique. Learn any thing you can. Learn also how to interweave >> your blindness skills into the normal skills of what you as a person >> need to no. Learn what you do, and what you don't do. Also, be >> willing to explore, and adapt. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind >> person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail >> .com > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri > Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the > Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only > Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have > eternal life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.c > om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Sat Mar 29 12:46:11 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 05:46:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <67A4274EB508495CB138A01C99A6FC6F@OwnerPC> References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> <67A4274EB508495CB138A01C99A6FC6F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140329054438.01f2abe8@comcast.net> Good morning, everyone, So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of getting assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's wrong with that? for today, Car At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >Hi Joe, >very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance >anymore. Not with the barriers I face because the world is not >conducive to nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. >Do I think about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I >have low vision. >I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news >and weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory >a lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, >no its not a nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to >render blindness insignificant in doing what we want to do. > >Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your passions. >Its also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change >the world. Go out and achieve big things for you. > >Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >field, is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >You are smart. > >Ashley >-----Original Message----- From: Joe >Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >successfulblind people > >Phil, > >A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. Isn't that >obvious? > >But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from the >people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in success. >Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness is >irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the reality >that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a degree, >overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't succeed there, >a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is slim. Is the person >willing to advocate for themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard >to achieve tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the >time? Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to succeed at >life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may >need to ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to >the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat >sighted applicants. > >At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to the NFB >notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. Were that >true, I believe we would have seen better progress where blind people are >concerned. Blindness presents certain unique challenges a person must >regularly overcome to excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process >easier, but I don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as >to be labeled a minor inconvenience. > >Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think pursuing your >own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post on the subject, which >you can read at the link below: > >http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream > >-- >Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >Visit my blog: >http://joeorozco.com/blog > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind >people > >Hi all, > >I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social >and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood >of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a >moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a >blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and >behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what >makes you cite these traits? >For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and >exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, >intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career >possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to >be different is important as a blind person. >What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >Thanks! > >Best, >Phil > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 14:59:37 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 10:59:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140329054438.01f2abe8@comcast.net> References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> <67A4274EB508495CB138A01C99A6FC6F@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20140329054438.01f2abe8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <016401cf4b5f$81b828e0$85287aa0$@gmail.com> Nothing. If there not accessible, then either have them made accessible, or get help. Sometimes, getting help is the best way. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Good morning, everyone, So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of getting assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's wrong with that? for today, Car At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >Hi Joe, >very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. >Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. >Do I think about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have >low vision. >I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news and >weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a lot >and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things differently >because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does play a role in >my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance filling out job >applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came across at least >three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, and I do not know >what the errors are. or others I fill out are not accepted telling me >that I missed fields, and I have no idea which fields I missed. I need >some eyes to assist me. >Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >insignificant in doing what we want to do. > >Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your passions. >Its also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the >world. Go out and achieve big things for you. > >Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >field, is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >You are smart. > >Ashley >-----Original Message----- From: Joe >Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >successfulblind people > >Phil, > >A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. Isn't >that obvious? > >But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from the >people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in success. >Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness is >irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the >reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a >degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't >succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is >slim. Is the person willing to advocate for themselves? Are they >willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks their sighted peers can >complete sometimes in half the time? Are they honest enough with >themselves to tell if they possess sufficient daily living, technology, >and communication skills to succeed at life, let alone the workplace? >It may be true that our sighted peers may need to ponder some of these >points, but not with the same necessity or to the same depth as the >blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat sighted applicants. > >At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to the >NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. >Were that true, I believe we would have seen better progress where >blind people are concerned. Blindness presents certain unique >challenges a person must regularly overcome to excel. Yes, building up >confidence makes the process easier, but I don't know that we have >reached a point in our evolution of independence that blindness is >irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as to be labeled a minor inconvenience. > >Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think pursuing >your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post on the >subject, which you can read at the link below: > >http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream > >-- >Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >Visit my blog: >http://joeorozco.com/blog > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >blind people > >Hi all, > >I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's >likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >Thanks! > >Best, >Phil > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.co >m > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earth >link.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. >net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 16:02:48 2014 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 10:02:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20140329054438.01f2abe8@comcast.net> References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> <67A4274EB508495CB138A01C99A6FC6F@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20140329054438.01f2abe8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <672BD3FB-F5C2-4813-A0F6-4D85F7884DCE@gmail.com> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, everyone, > > So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of getting assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's wrong with that? > for today, Car > > At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi Joe, >> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low vision. >> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news and weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, >> no its not a nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness insignificant in doing what we want to do. >> >> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your passions. Its also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. Go out and achieve big things for you. >> >> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that field, is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >> You are smart. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people >> >> Phil, >> >> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. Isn't that >> obvious? >> >> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from the >> people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in success. >> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness is >> irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the reality >> that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a degree, >> overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't succeed there, >> a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is slim. Is the person >> willing to advocate for themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard >> to achieve tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the >> time? Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to succeed at >> life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may >> need to ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to >> the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat >> sighted applicants. >> >> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to the NFB >> notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. Were that >> true, I believe we would have seen better progress where blind people are >> concerned. Blindness presents certain unique challenges a person must >> regularly overcome to excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process >> easier, but I don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as >> to be labeled a minor inconvenience. >> >> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think pursuing your >> own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post on the subject, which >> you can read at the link below: >> >> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind >> people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, social >> and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind person's likelihood >> of success in life. But if we focus on personal characteristics for a >> moment, what do you think are some personal characteristics that can help a >> blind person succeed, or ask in a different way, what characteristics and >> behavior traits do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what >> makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity and >> exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical surrounding, >> intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and career >> possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having the courage to >> be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 16:10:19 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:10:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <672BD3FB-F5C2-4813-A0F6-4D85F7884DCE@gmail.com> References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> <67A4274EB508495CB138A01C99A6FC6F@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20140329054438.01f2abe8@comcast.net> <672BD3FB-F5C2-4813-A0F6-4D85F7884DCE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01cf4b69$620aadb0$26200910$@gmail.com> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Good morning, everyone, > > So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of getting assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's wrong with that? > for today, Car > > At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi Joe, >> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low vision. >> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news and weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness insignificant in doing what we want to do. >> >> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your passions. Its also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. Go out and achieve big things for you. >> >> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that field, is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >> You are smart. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >> successfulblind people >> >> Phil, >> >> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >> Isn't that obvious? >> >> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in success. >> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the >> reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a >> degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't >> succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is >> slim. Is the person willing to advocate for themselves? Are they >> willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks their sighted peers >> can complete sometimes in half the time? Are they honest enough with >> themselves to tell if they possess sufficient daily living, >> technology, and communication skills to succeed at life, let alone >> the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may need to >> ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to >> the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to beat sighted applicants. >> >> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents certain >> unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to excel. Yes, >> building up confidence makes the process easier, but I don't know >> that we have reached a point in our evolution of independence that >> blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as to be labeled a minor inconvenience. >> >> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >> >> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >> blind people >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind >> person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >> thlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcas >> t.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 16:57:08 2014 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:57:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College In-Reply-To: <2D45A9B9-2C07-43D8-B548-8AC376B22149@gmail.com> References: <53357ce6.27b1ec0a.1234.36f1@mx.google.com> <2D45A9B9-2C07-43D8-B548-8AC376B22149@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi again, Per the issue of letting your instructor know you're blind and such, I don't think it is such a big deal as we may think. When I started karate my dad mentioned it to my instructor, and I think it made him feel a little off guard. He did have me come in to an individual appointment, but once he saw that I could do what he was asking me to do he was like, "Good, you can start in the white belt class tomorrow." It helped that he competed against a blind guy perhaps, but overall it wasn't bad. Another thing I really liked, outside of martial arts that my dojo did, was circuit training. It was difficult for me to go early on since I was balancing marching band and karate, but once my marching season was over I started doing circuit training on the days I didn't take karate classes. It was hard work, but it was also a lot of fun. My instructor's wife was the one who taught it, and like her husband she was very open to working with me. IF we were trying something I had never done before she would show me how to do it, and then only pop over if I was doing something incorrectly or looked confused. I know this is a little off topic from martial arts, but it is also something I would recommend too. On 3/28/14, Kirt wrote: > Lizzie, > I did judo for a couple years and am actually thinking about starting up > again, as I live fairly close to a dojo now. My sensei was pretty good about > demonstrating new throws and ground tech Meeks on me and letting me try them > out on him until I'm more or less got them down. I also got some of the > other more advanced students show me things when I needed help... And it > worked pretty well. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 28, 2014, at 10:08 AM, wrote: >> >> Hi Lizzy, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm doing Karate, >> but I don't do it at school, I do it outside of school! I started doing it >> last augus, and I really like it a lot, I'm actually a yellow belt now. >> Just to let you know, I'm actually the first blind student in my class! I >> actually attend a Saturday class which is a class where students that have >> some kind of dissability works one to one. In fact, one of my friend >> invited me and she told the Sensei that I was blind, and he started >> working with me one to one, and now he makes me work with some of the >> students that are in his regular classes that volunteer to help in that >> day, but he also works with me when they are not available. And once in a >> while I come to one of his classes that are held on the week. I never did >> Karate before, and I really enjoy it a lot! I recommend you take Karate! I >> think the first thing you should do is talk to your instructor first, and >> tell him or her that you are visually impaired, and then telll him that >> you are willing to learn the moves if he teach you one to one first for a >> two months or so, and then he or she can assign you a student that can >> help you and both of you can practice together and then he or she can come >> to check on you both! For the first time learning the moves could be >> difficult, but not impossible! If you have any questions, you can write me >> offlist or you can write me on list ok? Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks >> and God bless! :) >> >> -----Original Message----- From: lizzy >> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:44 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College >> >> Hi All, >> I'm thinking about taking some form of a martial art (more >> specifically Judo, Karate or Tae Kwon Do) in the fall semester. >> They are all club sports, so no one has to have prior experience >> to join. I'm wondering if I should speak to the instructor >> before coming to a class? Should I try to learn some of the >> movements one-on-one before class and then practice them while >> there? Or should I just show up and go with the flow? Are martial >> arts typically very visual? If anyone has experience with or >> knows someone who has done these martial arts before could you >> give me some pointers. I honestly have never seen any of the >> moves so I don't really know what to expect. I've done other >> sports before but nothing like this so as always, any advice or >> information you can give me would be fantastic! >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber26%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 17:34:37 2014 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 11:34:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <000f01cf4b69$620aadb0$26200910$@gmail.com> References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> <67A4274EB508495CB138A01C99A6FC6F@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20140329054438.01f2abe8@comcast.net> <672BD3FB-F5C2-4813-A0F6-4D85F7884DCE@gmail.com> <000f01cf4b69$620aadb0$26200910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Funny you mentioned that… because it's actually one of my favorite speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way I interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main point in that speech was that real independence means getting things done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and as long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech is easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some people in the federation who don't quite live by it. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" wrote: > > Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind > people > > Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation teaches, > you've been listening to the wrong people. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> Good morning, everyone, >> >> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of getting > assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's wrong with > that? >> for today, Car >> >> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Hi Joe, >>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. > Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to nonvisual > access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think about blindness a > lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low vision. >>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news and > weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a lot and > feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things differently because of > my vision or feel down over it. But, it does play a role in my ability to > accomplish visual tasks. For instance filling out job applications; its like > half are inaccessible; I came across at least three which say errors, fix > the boxes by red stars, and I do not know what the errors are. or others I > fill out are not accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no > idea which fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I > struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness > insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>> >>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your passions. Its > also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. Go > out and achieve big things for you. >>> >>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that field, > is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>> You are smart. >>> >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>> successfulblind people >>> >>> Phil, >>> >>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>> Isn't that obvious? >>> >>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >>> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in > success. >>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >>> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the >>> reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a >>> degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't >>> succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is >>> slim. Is the person willing to advocate for themselves? Are they >>> willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks their sighted peers >>> can complete sometimes in half the time? Are they honest enough with >>> themselves to tell if they possess sufficient daily living, >>> technology, and communication skills to succeed at life, let alone >>> the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may need to >>> ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to >>> the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to > beat sighted applicants. >>> >>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents certain >>> unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to excel. Yes, >>> building up confidence makes the process easier, but I don't know >>> that we have reached a point in our evolution of independence that >>> blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as to be labeled a > minor inconvenience. >>> >>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >>> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>> >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>> blind people >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >>> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind >>> person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >>> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >>> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >>> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >>> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >>> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >>> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >>> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >>> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Best, >>> Phil >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>> com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >>> thlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcas >>> t.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >> mail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 18:33:05 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:33:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: References: <013901cf4a22$c4548290$4cfd87b0$@gmail.com> <67A4274EB508495CB138A01C99A6FC6F@OwnerPC> <7.0.1.0.2.20140329054438.01f2abe8@comcast.net> <672BD3FB-F5C2-4813-A0F6-4D85F7884DCE@gmail.com> <000f01cf4b69$620aadb0$26200910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of opportunity. Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when things are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a car, etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. Arielle On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: > Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite speeches > and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way I interpret and > apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main point in that speech > was that real independence means getting things done in the most efficient > way possible, Without placing ridiculously high burdens on other people. He > went out of his way to repeatedly emphasize that real independence, As he > saw it, does indeed mean you accept assistance if you want it, if it will > really be helpful, and as long as it is on your terms and not somebody > else's. That speech is easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say > there are some people in the federation who don't quite live by it. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >> wrote: >> >> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >> successfulblind >> people >> >> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation teaches, >> you've been listening to the wrong people. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Good morning, everyone, >>> >>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>> getting >> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's wrong >> with >> that? >>> for today, Car >>> >>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. >> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >> nonvisual >> access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think about blindness a >> lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low vision. >>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news and >> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a lot and >> feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things differently because >> of >> my vision or feel down over it. But, it does play a role in my ability to >> accomplish visual tasks. For instance filling out job applications; its >> like >> half are inaccessible; I came across at least three which say errors, fix >> the boxes by red stars, and I do not know what the errors are. or others I >> fill out are not accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no >> idea which fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your passions. Its >> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. >> Go >> out and achieve big things for you. >>>> >>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>> field, >> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>> You are smart. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>> successfulblind people >>>> >>>> Phil, >>>> >>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>> >>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >>>> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a factor in >> success. >>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >>>> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny the >>>> reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. To a >>>> degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if you can't >>>> succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding anywhere else is >>>> slim. Is the person willing to advocate for themselves? Are they >>>> willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks their sighted peers >>>> can complete sometimes in half the time? Are they honest enough with >>>> themselves to tell if they possess sufficient daily living, >>>> technology, and communication skills to succeed at life, let alone >>>> the workplace? It may be true that our sighted peers may need to >>>> ponder some of these points, but not with the same necessity or to >>>> the same depth as the blind person who has to be extra competitive to >> beat sighted applicants. >>>> >>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents certain >>>> unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to excel. Yes, >>>> building up confidence makes the process easier, but I don't know >>>> that we have reached a point in our evolution of independence that >>>> blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so minimal as to be labeled a >> minor inconvenience. >>>> >>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >>>> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>> >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>>> blind people >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility barriers, >>>> social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a blind >>>> person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on personal >>>> characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some personal >>>> characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or ask in a >>>> different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do successful >>>> blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of curiosity >>>> and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's physical >>>> surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different subjects and >>>> career possibilities, and so on. Others have also pointed out having >>>> the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >>>> thlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcas >>>> t.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From philso1003 at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 23:21:45 2014 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Phil) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:21:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones Message-ID: Hi all, Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's and con's? Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible and popular Android smartphones. Looking forward to hearing your views. Best, Phil From jsoro620 at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 23:39:50 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:39:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Message-ID: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> Arielle, Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not merely lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which we do not always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, could, be a non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did not slow down our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who can move through life without experiencing frustration with the delays and detours at random points along the way. In fact, I would submit that those few for whom blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones working at the heights of the blindness movement where it is easy to drum up platitudes of opportunity and analogies of blindness to a nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out and raise money for the cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of that leadership bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I will take a motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but there's success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and then there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn it. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of opportunity. Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when things are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a car, etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. Arielle On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: > Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite > speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way I > interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main > point in that speech was that real independence means getting things > done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously > high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly > emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you > accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and as > long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech is > easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some people in the federation who don't quite live by it. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >> wrote: >> >> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >> successfulblind people >> >> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Good morning, everyone, >>> >>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>> getting >> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >> wrong with that? >>> for today, Car >>> >>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. >> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >> vision. >>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news >>>> and >> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>> passions. Its >> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. >> Go >> out and achieve big things for you. >>>> >>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>> field, >> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>> You are smart. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>> successfulblind people >>>> >>>> Phil, >>>> >>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>> >>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >>>> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>> factor in >> success. >>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >>>> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny >>>> the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. >>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks >>>> their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are >>>> they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with >>>> the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has >>>> to be extra competitive to >> beat sighted applicants. >>>> >>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>> minimal as to be labeled a >> minor inconvenience. >>>> >>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >>>> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>> >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>>> blind people >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do >>>> successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e >>>> ar >>>> thlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comc >>>> as >>>> t.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 29 23:42:46 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:42:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> References: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01cf4ba8$970f6070$c52e2150$@gmail.com> Yeah, I agree with joe. You've got to have everything aligned to say that blindness is a nuisance, elsewise the questions I see on this list would be completely different. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:40 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Arielle, Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not merely lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which we do not always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, could, be a non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did not slow down our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who can move through life without experiencing frustration with the delays and detours at random points along the way. In fact, I would submit that those few for whom blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones working at the heights of the blindness movement where it is easy to drum up platitudes of opportunity and analogies of blindness to a nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out and raise money for the cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of that leadership bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I will take a motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but there's success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and then there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn it. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of opportunity. Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when things are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a car, etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. Arielle On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: > Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite > speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way I > interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main > point in that speech was that real independence means getting things > done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously > high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly > emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you > accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and as > long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech is > easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some > people in the federation who don't quite live by it. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >> wrote: >> >> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >> successfulblind people >> >> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Good morning, everyone, >>> >>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>> getting >> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >> wrong with that? >>> for today, Car >>> >>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. >> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >> vision. >>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news >>>> and >> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>> passions. Its >> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. >> Go >> out and achieve big things for you. >>>> >>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>> field, >> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>> You are smart. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>> successfulblind people >>>> >>>> Phil, >>>> >>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>> >>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >>>> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>> factor in >> success. >>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >>>> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny >>>> the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. >>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks >>>> their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are >>>> they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with >>>> the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has >>>> to be extra competitive to >> beat sighted applicants. >>>> >>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>> minimal as to be labeled a >> minor inconvenience. >>>> >>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >>>> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>> >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>>> blind people >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do >>>> successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a >>>> blind person. >>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e >>>> ar >>>> thlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comc >>>> as >>>> t.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sun Mar 30 00:46:45 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:46:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Joe, Good grief, which lack of opportunities do we have control over? If we had control over them, they would no longer constitute a lack of opportunities. It feels like you are playing games with words here. Blindness is going to be more than a nuisance at times as are many, many other things in life. Is it fair that we are not all born sighted? Of course not, but you could say that about a lot of characteristics. It is my understanding that the "reduced to a nuisance" thing was intended to address the notion that many sighted peopl have that we wake up every morning dreading living another day as a blind person. I can honestly say I do not wake up that way. A month ago, it was fifteen below zero here in Minnesota and a cab dropped me off at the wrong place. I pulled out my iPhone to use BlindSquare to see where I was. My fingers got so cold so quickly that I couldn't access it. Right then, blindness was more than a nuisance, and I don't mind admitting that. We have some big obstacles now and some will get bigger if we don't figure out how to deal with them more successfully. Accessibility is a very big one. Let's not forget, though, that thirty years ago, and I remember because I was in the work place then, we had access to no forms, no mail, no banking information and on and on. We had to hire readers for all of it. In some ways, I think taking classes back then was actually easier, though, than it is today, although I would have given a lot to be able to use the web to do research as can be done now. Things change, they gett better in some ways but worse in others. There are many things about life that can be difficult, and blindness is one, but not the only one and I maintain often not the biggest one. What our philosophy does for me is to help me keep it in some sort of perspective. Being born sighted would have been nice, but so would being born rich, or being born with an irresistable artistic tallent or maybe even athletic skills. Regardless of one's level of patriotism, I thing most would agree that being born blind here and in many other countries is probably preferable to being born sighted in a war zone or area of unrest. There are far too many of us who have not been able to move ahead to the degree that they likely would have had they been born sighted. We have to keep trying to make opportunities better than they are. In some ways, I think we have been fighting pretty hard just to stay even, but where would we be if we hadn't fought. I am frankly somewhat concerned about where we are right now with respect to accessibility, but I'm going to try to do what I can to make the chances better that it will move in the right direction. We also have to be willing to use other tools when we need to. It means asking for help sometimes but it also means finding a way to return the help we are given in another way. As I think you know, I don't work at the heights of the blindness movement, but I know I have been lucky in many ways and I am mindful of that. I just don't see where preaching hopelessness is going to help us. When I was looking for a job, just knowing that others had found jobs helped me keep moving. However, I was also able to learn from them so I received tangible assistance in that way, too. I think that too much time is spent on trying to define "nuisance" and "non-issue" instead of trying to get to the true intent of using those words, to paint a picture that is less bleak and to offer hope and support. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:39:50 -0400, Joe wrote: >Arielle, >Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not merely >lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which we do not >always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, could, be a >non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did not slow down >our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who can move through life >without experiencing frustration with the delays and detours at random >points along the way. In fact, I would submit that those few for whom >blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones working at the heights of the >blindness movement where it is easy to drum up platitudes of opportunity and >analogies of blindness to a nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out >and raise money for the cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of >that leadership bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I >will take a motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but >there's success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and >then there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn it. >-- >Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >Visit my blog: >http://joeorozco.com/blog >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >Silverman >Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind >people >Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of opportunity. >Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all >denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of >opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when things >are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a car, >etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. >Arielle >On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: >> Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite >> speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way I >> interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main >> point in that speech was that real independence means getting things >> done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously >> high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly >> emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you >> accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and as >> long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech is >> easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some people >in the federation who don't quite live by it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>> successfulblind people >>> >>> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >>> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good morning, everyone, >>>> >>>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>>> getting >>> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >>> wrong with that? >>>> for today, Car >>>> >>>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. >>> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >>> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >>> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >>> vision. >>>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news >>>>> and >>> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >>> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >>> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >>> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >>> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >>> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >>> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >>> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >>> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >>> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >>> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>>> passions. Its >>> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. >>> Go >>> out and achieve big things for you. >>>>> >>>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>>> field, >>> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>>> You are smart. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>> successfulblind people >>>>> >>>>> Phil, >>>>> >>>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>>> >>>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >>>>> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>>> factor in >>> success. >>>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >>>>> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny >>>>> the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. >>>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks >>>>> their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are >>>>> they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with >>>>> the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has >>>>> to be extra competitive to >>> beat sighted applicants. >>>>> >>>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>>> minimal as to be labeled a >>> minor inconvenience. >>>>> >>>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >>>>> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>>> >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>>>> blind people >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do >>>>> successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite >these traits? >>>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind >person. >>>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior >traits? >>>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e >>>>> ar >>>>> thlink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comc >>>>> as >>>>> t.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 00:47:00 2014 From: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com (Ryan Bishop) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 17:47:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F4B01ED-44E5-4E18-8424-0743320FB393@gmail.com> Hi all The iPhone LOL. No just kidding I did have a galaxy S III at one point and it was pretty accessible I also have the epic 4G and that was running android and it was quite accessible to. The only thing that wasn't accessible was the Internet. But I got around that with different applications. Sent from my iPhone Ryan Bishop Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com 480-221-5195 Secretary Arizona Association of blind students http://az.nfb.org/aabs Webmaster National Federation of the Blind of Arizona http://az.nfb.org Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the Blind today! For more information, please visit: http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind person has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical nuisance. Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. > On Mar 29, 2014, at 16:21, Phil wrote: > > Hi all, > > Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's > and con's? > Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible > and popular Android smartphones. > Looking forward to hearing your views. > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Sun Mar 30 01:01:26 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:01:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: <6F4B01ED-44E5-4E18-8424-0743320FB393@gmail.com> References: <6F4B01ED-44E5-4E18-8424-0743320FB393@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6610A602-454A-4299-85CC-28905B572F1A@icloud.com> The IPhone is not Android, but it is the most accessible phone. Sent from my iPad On Mar 29, 2014, at 8:47 PM, Ryan Bishop wrote: > Hi all > The iPhone LOL. No just kidding I did have a galaxy S III at one point and it was pretty accessible I also have the epic 4G and that was running android and it was quite accessible to. The only thing that wasn't accessible was the Internet. But I got around that with different applications. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > Ryan Bishop > Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com > 480-221-5195 > Secretary > Arizona Association of blind students > http://az.nfb.org/aabs > Webmaster > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona > http://az.nfb.org > Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the Blind today! For more information, please visit: > http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org > or call > 1-855-659-9314 > > The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind person has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical nuisance. > > Confidentiality Notice: > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. As such, dispensing of this information should only be to individuals on a need-to-know basis. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. > > > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 16:21, Phil wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's >> and con's? >> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >> and popular Android smartphones. >> Looking forward to hearing your views. >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From carlymih at comcast.net Sun Mar 30 01:04:47 2014 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:04:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20140329180323.0524f040@comcast.net> Hi, PhilAt 04:21 PM 3/29/2014, you wrote: >Hi all, >Don't forget the Moto X... Enough said! for today, Car 408-209-3239 >Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's >and con's? >Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >and popular Android smartphones. >Looking forward to hearing your views. > >Best, >Phil > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 01:36:53 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:36:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: References: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015d01cf4bb8$8791f8f0$96b5ead0$@gmail.com> Steve, I hardly think my words are dismal. My opposition is to people who claim success is irrelevant to blindness, and it was my response that the persistent unemployment rate tells a different story. I struggle with the notion that those 70 plus percent refuse to succeed. You can indeed become a teacher, an attorney, engineer, or anything else your heart desires, but as some here have pointed out, you must also conquer the first stretch of unique obstacles that present themselves to blind individuals. I too derive positive energy from the NFB philosophy, and despite my backhanded remark of the organization's leadership, I think they are mostly well-appointed to act on our collective concerns. However, these over-simplistic marketing sound bites and training center promises do nothing for the blind person at any stage of their independence who find themselves with tangible challenges no amount of positive philosophy can immediately resolve. All I am advocating for is a little pragmatic planning. You will most assuredly succeed. Yet, you must be prepared to go the extra mile to get there. It is not so simple as completing a round of training and presuming the world will be at your feet. We criticize our sighted peers for celebrating tasks we accomplish, because in our minds, these are minimal tasks anyone could accomplish. Me, I say to heck with that. I'm proud of you for the man you are. You make me look good to the public by association because you first challenged yourself to be an independent blind person and then went out and lived up to your own professional aspirations. Success does indeed have many faces. Yet, I think that belief can just as easily help us justify our accomplishments to skeptics as it can help us justify our complacency. I can't tell if I'm more of a hard-liner than you on this discussion, but regardless, we should both agree that the core message needs to change a bit if we want to reverse the declining interest in the traditional grassroots movement. There are too many approaches and too many channels to compare those approaches to claim the old mantras of a one-size-fits-all mentality are still relevant. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: Steve Jacobson [mailto:steve.jacobson at visi.com] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:47 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people Joe, Good grief, which lack of opportunities do we have control over? If we had control over them, they would no longer constitute a lack of opportunities. It feels like you are playing games with words here. Blindness is going to be more than a nuisance at times as are many, many other things in life. Is it fair that we are not all born sighted? Of course not, but you could say that about a lot of characteristics. It is my understanding that the "reduced to a nuisance" thing was intended to address the notion that many sighted peopl have that we wake up every morning dreading living another day as a blind person. I can honestly say I do not wake up that way. A month ago, it was fifteen below zero here in Minnesota and a cab dropped me off at the wrong place. I pulled out my iPhone to use BlindSquare to see where I was. My fingers got so cold so quickly that I couldn't access it. Right then, blindness was more than a nuisance, and I don't mind admitting that. We have some big obstacles now and some will get bigger if we don't figure out how to deal with them more successfully. Accessibility is a very big one. Let's not forget, though, that thirty years ago, and I remember because I was in the work place then, we had access to no forms, no mail, no banking information and on and on. We had to hire readers for all of it. In some ways, I think taking classes back then was actually easier, though, than it is today, although I would have given a lot to be able to use the web to do research as can be done now. Things change, they gett better in some ways but worse in others. There are many things about life that can be difficult, and blindness is one, but not the only one and I maintain often not the biggest one. What our philosophy does for me is to help me keep it in some sort of perspective. Being born sighted would have been nice, but so would being born rich, or being born with an irresistable artistic tallent or maybe even athletic skills. Regardless of one's level of patriotism, I thing most would agree that being born blind here and in many other countries is probably preferable to being born sighted in a war zone or area of unrest. There are far too many of us who have not been able to move ahead to the degree that they likely would have had they been born sighted. We have to keep trying to make opportunities better than they are. In some ways, I think we have been fighting pretty hard just to stay even, but where would we be if we hadn't fought. I am frankly somewhat concerned about where we are right now with respect to accessibility, but I'm going to try to do what I can to make the chances better that it will move in the right direction. We also have to be willing to use other tools when we need to. It means asking for help sometimes but it also means finding a way to return the help we are given in another way. As I think you know, I don't work at the heights of the blindness movement, but I know I have been lucky in many ways and I am mindful of that. I just don't see where preaching hopelessness is going to help us. When I was looking for a job, just knowing that others had found jobs helped me keep moving. However, I was also able to learn from them so I received tangible assistance in that way, too. I think that too much time is spent on trying to define "nuisance" and "non-issue" instead of trying to get to the true intent of using those words, to paint a picture that is less bleak and to offer hope and support. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:39:50 -0400, Joe wrote: >Arielle, >Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not >merely lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which >we do not always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, >could, be a non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did >not slow down our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who >can move through life without experiencing frustration with the delays >and detours at random points along the way. In fact, I would submit >that those few for whom blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones >working at the heights of the blindness movement where it is easy to >drum up platitudes of opportunity and analogies of blindness to a >nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out and raise money for the >cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of that leadership >bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I will take a >motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but there's >success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and then there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn it. >-- >Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >Visit my blog: >http://joeorozco.com/blog >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >Silverman >Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >successfulblind people >Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of opportunity. >Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all >denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of >opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when >things are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a >car, etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. >Arielle >On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: >> Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite >> speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way >> I interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main >> point in that speech was that real independence means getting things >> done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously >> high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly >> emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you >> accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and >> as long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech >> is easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some >> people >in the federation who don't quite live by it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>> successfulblind people >>> >>> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >>> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good morning, everyone, >>>> >>>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>>> getting >>> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >>> wrong with that? >>>> for today, Car >>>> >>>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. >>> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >>> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >>> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >>> vision. >>>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the >>>>> news and >>> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >>> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >>> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >>> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >>> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >>> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >>> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >>> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >>> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, >>>>> I >>> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >>> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>>> passions. Its >>> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. >>> Go >>> out and achieve big things for you. >>>>> >>>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>>> field, >>> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>>> You are smart. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>> successfulblind people >>>>> >>>>> Phil, >>>>> >>>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>>> >>>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective >>>>> from the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>>> factor in >>> success. >>>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and >>>>> blindness is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is >>>>> to deny the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. >>>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve >>>>> tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? >>>>> Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not >>>>> with the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person >>>>> who has to be extra competitive to >>> beat sighted applicants. >>>>> >>>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>>> minimal as to be labeled a >>> minor inconvenience. >>>>> >>>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog >>>>> post on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>>> >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>> successful blind people >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits >>>>> do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you >>>>> cite >these traits? >>>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a >>>>> blind >person. >>>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior >traits? >>>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40 >>>>> e >>>>> ar >>>>> thlink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40com >>>>> c >>>>> as >>>>> t.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude% >>>> 4 >>>> 0g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> % >>> 40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0 >>> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.co >m >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 01:51:23 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:51:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful blind people In-Reply-To: <015d01cf4bb8$8791f8f0$96b5ead0$@gmail.com> References: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> <015d01cf4bb8$8791f8f0$96b5ead0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps the issue is whether we are talking about individual or collective success. On a group level, as you point out, blind people experience less success than their sighted peers, and face several tangible obstacles that I still contend are all part of lack of opportunity. On an individual level, though, blindness is more relevant in some of our lives than others. I don't think blindness affected my own academic experiences much. This was because I had training and opportunity, and because I was in a field where nonvisual access was pretty easy to come by. For others of us blindness presented huge obstacles. I don't like the generalization that blindness is a handicap for all of us but instead I would argue that the impact of blindness is very dependent on context. Even in the last few days visiting my family for spring break, in a place where there's little public transit, nothing in the kitchen is organized or Brailled, etc. I feel a huge loss of the independence I am so accustomed to living on my own. My blindness didn't change when I flew to Arizona but the surrounding situation changed instead. I do think our philosophy needs to focus on improving our situations, which is what I think is meant by creating opportunity, rather than on eradicating blindness or blaming our troubles on blindness. Blindness is a fixed thing but our situations are highly flexible and as a collective we must continue to make our situations better for us. Arielle On 3/29/14, Joe wrote: > Steve, > > I hardly think my words are dismal. My opposition is to people who claim > success is irrelevant to blindness, and it was my response that the > persistent unemployment rate tells a different story. I struggle with the > notion that those 70 plus percent refuse to succeed. You can indeed become > a > teacher, an attorney, engineer, or anything else your heart desires, but as > some here have pointed out, you must also conquer the first stretch of > unique obstacles that present themselves to blind individuals. > > I too derive positive energy from the NFB philosophy, and despite my > backhanded remark of the organization's leadership, I think they are mostly > well-appointed to act on our collective concerns. However, these > over-simplistic marketing sound bites and training center promises do > nothing for the blind person at any stage of their independence who find > themselves with tangible challenges no amount of positive philosophy can > immediately resolve. > > All I am advocating for is a little pragmatic planning. You will most > assuredly succeed. Yet, you must be prepared to go the extra mile to get > there. It is not so simple as completing a round of training and presuming > the world will be at your feet. We criticize our sighted peers for > celebrating tasks we accomplish, because in our minds, these are minimal > tasks anyone could accomplish. Me, I say to heck with that. I'm proud of > you > for the man you are. You make me look good to the public by association > because you first challenged yourself to be an independent blind person and > then went out and lived up to your own professional aspirations. > > Success does indeed have many faces. Yet, I think that belief can just as > easily help us justify our accomplishments to skeptics as it can help us > justify our complacency. I can't tell if I'm more of a hard-liner than you > on this discussion, but regardless, we should both agree that the core > message needs to change a bit if we want to reverse the declining interest > in the traditional grassroots movement. There are too many approaches and > too many channels to compare those approaches to claim the old mantras of a > one-size-fits-all mentality are still relevant. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Jacobson [mailto:steve.jacobson at visi.com] > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 8:47 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful > blind people > > Joe, > > Good grief, which lack of opportunities do we have control over? If we had > control over them, they would no longer constitute a lack of opportunities. > It feels like you are playing games with words here. Blindness is going to > be more than a nuisance at times as are many, many other things in life. > Is > it fair that we are not all born sighted? Of course not, but you could say > that about a lot of characteristics. It is my understanding that the > "reduced to a nuisance" thing was intended to address the notion that many > sighted peopl have that we wake up every morning dreading living another > day > as a blind person. I can honestly say I do not wake up that way. A month > ago, it was fifteen below zero here in Minnesota and a cab dropped me off > at > the wrong place. I pulled out my iPhone to use BlindSquare to see where I > was. My fingers got so cold so quickly that I couldn't access it. Right > then, blindness was more than a nuisance, and I don't mind admitting that. > We have some big obstacles now and some will get bigger if we don't figure > out how to deal with them more successfully. Accessibility is a very big > one. Let's not forget, though, that thirty years ago, and I remember > because I was in the work place then, we had access to no forms, no mail, > no > banking information and on and on. We had to hire readers for all of it. > In some ways, I think taking classes back then was actually easier, though, > than it is today, although I would have given a lot to be able to use the > web to do research as can be done now. Things change, they gett better in > some ways but worse in others. There are many things about life that can > be > difficult, and blindness is one, but not the only one and I maintain often > not the biggest one. What our philosophy does for me is to help me keep it > in some sort of perspective. Being born sighted would have been nice, but > so would being born rich, or being born with an irresistable artistic > tallent or maybe even athletic skills. Regardless of one's level of > patriotism, I thing most would agree that being born blind here and in many > other countries is probably preferable to being born sighted in a war zone > or area of unrest. > > There are far too many of us who have not been able to move ahead to the > degree that they likely would have had they been born sighted. We have to > keep trying to make opportunities better than they are. In some ways, I > think we have been fighting pretty hard just to stay even, but where would > we be if we hadn't fought. I am frankly somewhat concerned about where we > are right now with respect to accessibility, but I'm going to try to do > what > I can to make the chances better that it will move in the right direction. > We also have to be willing to use other tools when we need to. It means > asking for help sometimes but it also means finding a way to return the > help > we are given in another way. As I think you know, I don't work at the > heights of the blindness movement, but I know I have been lucky in many > ways > and I am mindful of that. I just don't see where preaching hopelessness is > going to help us. > When I was looking for a job, just knowing that others had found jobs > helped > me keep moving. However, I was also able to learn from them so I received > tangible assistance in that way, too. > > I think that too much time is spent on trying to define "nuisance" and > "non-issue" instead of trying to get to the true intent of using those > words, to paint a picture that is less bleak and to offer hope and support. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:39:50 -0400, Joe wrote: > >>Arielle, > >>Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not >>merely lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which >>we do not always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, >>could, be a non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did >>not slow down our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who >>can move through life without experiencing frustration with the delays >>and detours at random points along the way. In fact, I would submit >>that those few for whom blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones >>working at the heights of the blindness movement where it is easy to >>drum up platitudes of opportunity and analogies of blindness to a >>nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out and raise money for the >>cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of that leadership >>bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I will take a >>motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but there's >>success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and then > there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn it. > >>-- >>Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > >>Visit my blog: >>http://joeorozco.com/blog > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle >>Silverman >>Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>successfulblind people > >>Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of > opportunity. >>Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all >>denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of >>opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when >>things are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a >>car, etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. >>Arielle > >>On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: >>> Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite >>> speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way >>> I interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main >>> point in that speech was that real independence means getting things >>> done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously >>> high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly >>> emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you >>> accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and >>> as long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech >>> is easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some >>> people >>in the federation who don't quite live by it. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>> successfulblind people >>>> >>>> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >>>> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good morning, everyone, >>>>> >>>>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>>>> getting >>>> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >>>> wrong with that? >>>>> for today, Car >>>>> >>>>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance > anymore. >>>> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >>>> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >>>> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >>>> vision. >>>>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the >>>>>> news and >>>> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >>>> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >>>> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >>>> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >>>> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >>>> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >>>> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >>>> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >>>> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, >>>>>> I >>>> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >>>> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>>>> passions. Its >>>> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the >>>> world. >>>> Go >>>> out and achieve big things for you. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>>>> field, >>>> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>>>> You are smart. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>>> successfulblind people >>>>>> >>>>>> Phil, >>>>>> >>>>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>>>> >>>>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective >>>>>> from the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>>>> factor in >>>> success. >>>>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and >>>>>> blindness is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is >>>>>> to deny the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are > unemployed. >>>>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve >>>>>> tasks their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? >>>>>> Are they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not >>>>>> with the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person >>>>>> who has to be extra competitive to >>>> beat sighted applicants. >>>>>> >>>>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>>>> minimal as to be labeled a >>>> minor inconvenience. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog >>>>>> post on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>>> successful blind people >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you > think. >>>>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits >>>>>> do successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you >>>>>> cite >>these traits? >>>>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a >>>>>> blind >>person. >>>>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior >>traits? >>>>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Phil >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40 >>>>>> e >>>>>> ar >>>>>> thlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40com >>>>>> c >>>>>> as >>>>>> t.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude% >>>>> 4 >>>>> 0g >>>>> mail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>>> % >>>> 40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0 >>>> gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >>> com >>> > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.co >>m > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >>si.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 30 04:14:43 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 00:14:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> References: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C7BADFFE02542E8B1B25FBEE4241DF6@OwnerPC> Joe, I agree and you said what I could not figure out how to say. I think the huge barriers such as the technology, transportation, and unemployment we have are depictitions of reality. We cannot simply drive to an entry level job such as receptionist and do it well; for one thing we cannot drive, for another, we could not do most reception jobs I'm finding due to the paperwork and checking IDS. We can sure be successful in spite of the barriers and the world built for the sighted, but it is no nuisance. That said, I believe that we should be able to do what we want to do and not limit ourselves on perceived perceptions. We can do much more than the sighted believe we can, and we just have to muster the courage to get out there and participate amongst the sighted as equals. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joe Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:39 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Arielle, Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not merely lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which we do not always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, could, be a non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did not slow down our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who can move through life without experiencing frustration with the delays and detours at random points along the way. In fact, I would submit that those few for whom blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones working at the heights of the blindness movement where it is easy to drum up platitudes of opportunity and analogies of blindness to a nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out and raise money for the cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of that leadership bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I will take a motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but there's success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and then there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn it. -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of opportunity. Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when things are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a car, etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. Arielle On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: > Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite > speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way I > interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main > point in that speech was that real independence means getting things > done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously > high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly > emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you > accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and as > long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech is > easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some people in the federation who don't quite live by it. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >> wrote: >> >> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >> successfulblind people >> >> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Good morning, everyone, >>> >>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>> getting >> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >> wrong with that? >>> for today, Car >>> >>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance anymore. >> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >> vision. >>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news >>>> and >> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>> passions. Its >> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. >> Go >> out and achieve big things for you. >>>> >>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>> field, >> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>> You are smart. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>> successfulblind people >>>> >>>> Phil, >>>> >>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>> >>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >>>> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>> factor in >> success. >>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >>>> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny >>>> the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. >>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks >>>> their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are >>>> they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with >>>> the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has >>>> to be extra competitive to >> beat sighted applicants. >>>> >>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>> minimal as to be labeled a >> minor inconvenience. >>>> >>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >>>> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>> >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>>> blind people >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you think. >>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do >>>> successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite these traits? >>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind person. >>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior traits? >>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e >>>> ar >>>> thlink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comc >>>> as >>>> t.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0g >>> mail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us Sun Mar 30 10:46:12 2014 From: icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us (Greg Wocher) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 06:46:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> Hello, I would suggest either: 1. Google Nexus 5 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition 3. Motorola Moto G- Google Play edition. All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one of these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They are all at the $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store editions because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on them. Greg Wocher Follow me on Twitter @GWocher On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: > Hi all, > > Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's > and con's? > Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible > and popular Android smartphones. > Looking forward to hearing your views. > > Best, > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > From philso1003 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 12:48:46 2014 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Phil) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:48:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> References: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Hi Greg, How does one get a Google Play edition phone? Say if I go to Verizon store and get a Moto X, do I ask for Google Play edition? Thanks. Phil On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: > Hello, > I would suggest either: > 1. Google Nexus 5 > 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition > 3. Motorola Moto G- Google Play edition. > All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one of > these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They are > all at the > $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store editions > because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on them. > > Greg Wocher > > Follow me on Twitter @GWocher > > On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's >> and con's? >> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >> and popular Android smartphones. >> Looking forward to hearing your views. >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 14:42:26 2014 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:42:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: References: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: <008e01cf4c26$45c6d300$d1547900$@gmail.com> Do they provide as much accessibility as an eye phone? I tried very hard to find a different option than an eye phone and held out until the last minute before buying mine. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 8:49 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones Hi Greg, How does one get a Google Play edition phone? Say if I go to Verizon store and get a Moto X, do I ask for Google Play edition? Thanks. Phil On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: > Hello, > I would suggest either: > 1. Google Nexus 5 > 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition 3. Motorola Moto G- Google > Play edition. > All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one of > these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They are > all at the > $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store editions > because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on them. > > Greg Wocher > > Follow me on Twitter @GWocher > > On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? >> Pro's and con's? >> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >> and popular Android smartphones. >> Looking forward to hearing your views. >> >> Best, >> Phil >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtw >> ebdesign.us >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail > .com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From piano.girl0299 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 15:08:58 2014 From: piano.girl0299 at gmail.com (Kelsey Nicolay) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:08:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] has anyone attended these colleges Message-ID: <5338339b.a14d320a.5e82.ffffb356@mx.google.com> Hello, I posted this before, but here it is again. I'm looking to go back to school for education in a few years once I've worked a while and can afford it, but I'm starting to look at schools. I've been in contact with someone who went to Kent, but I am wondering if anyone has or know someone who has gone to the following other schools: Bowling Green State University, Slippery Rock University, Eastern Michigan University, and Edinboro University of Pennsylvania. All of these schools have good education programs from what I've read and heard from others. I have been told to stay away from Youngstown State though because it's in a very bad area. I have therefore eliminated Youngstown from my list. Has anyone ever gone to or know someone who has gone to the above schools? As I mentioned, I've been in contact with a Kent graduate, so I'm looking for input on the other schools I mentioned. If you or someone you know has gone to the above mentioned schools, please feel free to write me offlist to share your experiences or put me in contact with someone. Slippery Rock and Edinboro are in Pennsylvania and Bowling Green is in Ohio, not Kentucky. There is a bowling green kentucky, so I wanted to make sure which state I meant. Eastern Michigan is located in Ypsilanti. Thanks in advance, Kelsey Nicolay From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Sun Mar 30 16:19:17 2014 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:19:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] has anyone attended these colleges In-Reply-To: <5338339b.a14d320a.5e82.ffffb356@mx.google.com> References: <5338339b.a14d320a.5e82.ffffb356@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello Kelsey, If you are interested in these colleges, then I would suggest visiting them to get the best feel for what they may be like. While visiting these colleges, you could potentially sit in on one of their classes as well as talk to current students and faculty members in the department you are interested in studying. I think visiting a college is the best way to find out if the college is the right one for you. However, if you are not able to visit every college you are interested in attending, then perhaps you could contact their alumni associations so you could talk to people who attended these colleges. I think you would have a better chance finding someone who attended these colleges by contacting their alumni associations rather than posting an email on this email list. I hope this helps you in your search in finding the right college for you. Warm regards, Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kelsey Nicolay" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:08 AM To: Subject: [nabs-l] has anyone attended these colleges > Hello, > I posted this before, but here it is again. I'm looking to go > back to school for education in a few years once I've worked a > while and can afford it, but I'm starting to look at schools. > I've been in contact with someone who went to Kent, but I am > wondering if anyone has or know someone who has gone to the > following other schools: Bowling Green State University, Slippery > Rock University, Eastern Michigan University, and Edinboro > University of Pennsylvania. All of these schools have good > education programs from what I've read and heard from others. I > have been told to stay away from Youngstown State though because > it's in a very bad area. I have therefore eliminated Youngstown > from my list. Has anyone ever gone to or know someone who has > gone to the above schools? As I mentioned, I've been in contact > with a Kent graduate, so I'm looking for input on the other > schools I mentioned. If you or someone you know has gone to the > above mentioned schools, please feel free to write me offlist to > share your experiences or put me in contact with someone. > Slippery Rock and Edinboro are in Pennsylvania and Bowling Green > is in Ohio, not Kentucky. There is a bowling green kentucky, so > I wanted to make sure which state I meant. Eastern Michigan is > located in Ypsilanti. > Thanks in advance, > Kelsey Nicolay > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From clb5590 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 16:17:22 2014 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:17:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Question About JAWS and Ms Access Message-ID: Hi all, I have to use Access for my job and I am currently having trouble with this. We have a database of study participants, and there is a table consisting of several columns with information about each participant, and each row is dedicated to one participant. I am supposed to be able to click on the participant's id number which is contained in one of the columns of the table to bring up their record to view and update their contact information. I have tried everything I can think of, pressing enter, space, right clicking and looking through the options, using my JAWS cursor, etc., and I cannot bring up a participant's record. Does anyone have any advice about activating items in tables in Access? I have looked through the JAWS Access and table help and only got keystrokes regarding reading information in tables, and Google searches haven't come up with anything either. Thanks, -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us Sun Mar 30 16:19:49 2014 From: icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us (Greg Wocher) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:19:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: References: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: <53384425.2050002@gtwebdesign.us> Hello, The only way to get a play edition phone is by ordering it from the Google Play store unfortunately. If you get the one Verizon sells it will still be a really good phone but it will not get updates as fast. Also the non play edition will be loaded with all Verizon's software. Greg Wocher Follow me on Twitter @GWocher On 3/30/2014 8:48 AM, Phil wrote: > Hi Greg, > > How does one get a Google Play edition phone? Say if I go to Verizon > store and get a Moto X, do I ask for Google Play edition? > > Thanks. > Phil > > > On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >> Hello, >> I would suggest either: >> 1. Google Nexus 5 >> 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition >> 3. Motorola Moto G- Google Play edition. >> All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one of >> these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They are >> all at the >> $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store editions >> because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on them. >> >> Greg Wocher >> >> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >> >> On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's >>> and con's? >>> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >>> and popular Android smartphones. >>> Looking forward to hearing your views. >>> >>> Best, >>> Phil >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 16:25:58 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:25:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Message-ID: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company of so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom I have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB fundraising campaigns. In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in scope. They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources we've already had. Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind professionals. I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the organization because they were turned away or because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of a mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of sustaining. So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want it to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had to be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management to you. I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength. Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 16:51:06 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:51:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was > caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company > of > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a > recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a > counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real > world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a > national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership > seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's > spirit, > but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit > business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more > members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing > that > so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose > of > inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating > more > ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating > byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom > I > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > fundraising campaigns. > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the > movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts > for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in > scope. > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or > the > only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and > raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources > we've already had. > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > professionals. > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will > be > and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the > organization because they were turned away or because they were never > welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind > when > I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of > a > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to > get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant > attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB > lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to > the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves > incapable of sustaining. > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want > it > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I > think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of > spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only > guide > your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the > political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own > wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > you > anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > to > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I > will > be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this > downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is > necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to > exist. > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've > found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem > happier, > and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > lesson > in financial management to you. > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would > never > become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide > different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through > the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no > business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they > couldn't > cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at > whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our > strength. > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the > rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the > original question, my answer would be this: > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume > what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and > wisdom to recognize the difference. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From michael.capelle at frontier.com Sun Mar 30 16:57:58 2014 From: michael.capelle at frontier.com (Michael Capelle) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:57:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> Hello all. This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. Thanks. Mike -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was > caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company > of > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a > recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a > counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real > world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a > national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership > seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's > spirit, > but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit > business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more > members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing > that > so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose > of > inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating > more > ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating > byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom > I > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > fundraising campaigns. > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the > movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts > for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in > scope. > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or > the > only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and > raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources > we've already had. > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > professionals. > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will > be > and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the > organization because they were turned away or because they were never > welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind > when > I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of > a > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to > get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant > attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB > lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to > the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves > incapable of sustaining. > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want > it > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I > think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of > spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only > guide > your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the > political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own > wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > you > anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > to > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I > will > be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this > downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is > necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to > exist. > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've > found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem > happier, > and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > lesson > in financial management to you. > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would > never > become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide > different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through > the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no > business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they > couldn't > cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at > whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our > strength. > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the > rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the > original question, my answer would be this: > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume > what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and > wisdom to recognize the difference. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com From juanitaherrera1991 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 17:53:51 2014 From: juanitaherrera1991 at gmail.com (Juanita Herrera) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:53:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> Hello Joe, I strongly agree with you. I once held a leadership position in the NFB. However, due to health issues I was unable to continue holding that position, so I found myself having to give it up. Since then maybe one or two people have kept in touch with me. That brought me to the realization that this particular organization only wants people when that person has something to offer. If a person is unable to contribute, it seems like those people are pushed to the side or forgotten. Just as you stated, I feel that I have fallen through the cracks. In my opinion, if an organization wants to keep its members active and it's membership growing, then they should continue to reach out to their members even when those members are unable to contribute because maybe at a later time they'll be able to do so again. However, being that I have fallen through the cracks I don't know if I'll be able to do that again. I sort of feel rejected by my own community. Sorry for the long rant but these have been my feelings for a while now. Juanita Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:25 AM, "Joe" wrote: > > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was > caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company of > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a > recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a > counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real > world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a > national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership > seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, > but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit > business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more > members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing that > so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating more > ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating > byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom I > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > fundraising campaigns. > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the > movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts > for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in scope. > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or the > only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and > raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources > we've already had. > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind professionals. > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will be > and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the > organization because they were turned away or because they were never > welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind when > I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of a > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to > get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant > attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB > lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to > the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves > incapable of sustaining. > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want it > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I > think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of > spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only guide > your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the > political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own > wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you > anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had to > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I will > be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this > downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is > necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to > exist. > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've > found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem happier, > and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson > in financial management to you. > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would never > become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide > different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through > the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no > business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't > cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at > whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our > strength. > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the > rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the > original question, my answer would be this: > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume > what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and > wisdom to recognize the difference. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitaherrera1991%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 18:00:01 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:00:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize drawings and the like. To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. Arielle On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > Hello all. > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, > live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all > mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > Thanks. > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without > the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > >> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >> was >> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >> >> of >> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >> leadership >> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >> spirit, >> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >> that >> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >> it >> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >> of >> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >> more >> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >> >> I >> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> fundraising campaigns. >> >> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> efforts >> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >> scope. >> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >> the >> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >> and >> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >> resources >> we've already had. >> >> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> professionals. >> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >> be >> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >> when >> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >> >> a >> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >> to >> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >> to >> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >> incapable of sustaining. >> >> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >> >> it >> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >> guide >> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >> own >> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >> you >> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> >> to >> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >> will >> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >> or >> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >> exist. >> >> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >> happier, >> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> lesson >> in financial management to you. >> >> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >> never >> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >> provide >> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >> couldn't >> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >> at >> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >> strength. >> >> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >> the >> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >> the >> original question, my answer would be this: >> >> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >> and >> wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 18:57:22 2014 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> Message-ID: <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> Arielle, That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. Joe, I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > drawings and the like. > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative > could be a loss of programs and resources. > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, > this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > > Arielle > >> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >> Hello all. >> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> Thanks. >> Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>> was >>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >>> >>> of >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>> leadership >>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>> spirit, >>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>> >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>> that >>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>> it >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >>> of >>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>> more >>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>> >>> I >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>> fundraising campaigns. >>> >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>> efforts >>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>> scope. >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >>> the >>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>> and >>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>> resources >>> we've already had. >>> >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>> professionals. >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >>> be >>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>> when >>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>> >>> a >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>> to >>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>> to >>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>> incapable of sustaining. >>> >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >>> >>> it >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>> guide >>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>> own >>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>> you >>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>> >>> to >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>> will >>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >>> or >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>> exist. >>> >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>> happier, >>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>> lesson >>> in financial management to you. >>> >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>> never >>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>> provide >>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>> couldn't >>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>> at >>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>> strength. >>> >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>> the >>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>> the >>> original question, my answer would be this: >>> >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>> and >>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Sun Mar 30 19:03:28 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:03:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> Because of the mental health issues I've experienced, the NFB has shunned me, and any division having to do with blind/mental illness folks has been shunned by the NFB. I'm sorry, but that sounds weird to me that anyone would shun another person in the disabled community. Beth On 3/30/2014 11:53 AM, Juanita Herrera wrote: > Hello Joe, > I strongly agree with you. I once held a leadership position in the NFB. However, due to health issues I was unable to continue holding that position, so I found myself having to give it up. Since then maybe one or two people have kept in touch with me. That brought me to the realization that this particular organization only wants people when that person has something to offer. If a person is unable to contribute, it seems like those people are pushed to the side or forgotten. Just as you stated, I feel that I have fallen through the cracks. In my opinion, if an organization wants to keep its members active and it's membership growing, then they should continue to reach out to their members even when those members are unable to contribute because maybe at a later time they'll be able to do so again. However, being that I have fallen through the cracks I don't know if I'll be able to do that again. I sort of feel rejected by my own community. Sorry for the long rant but these have been my feelings for a while now. > Juanita > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:25 AM, "Joe" wrote: >> >> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was >> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company of >> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership >> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, >> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing that >> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it >> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom I >> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> fundraising campaigns. >> >> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts >> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in scope. >> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or the >> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and >> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources >> we've already had. >> >> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind professionals. >> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will be >> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind when >> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of a >> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to >> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to >> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >> incapable of sustaining. >> >> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want it >> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only guide >> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own >> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you >> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had to >> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I will >> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or >> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >> exist. >> >> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem happier, >> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson >> in financial management to you. >> >> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would never >> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide >> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't >> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at >> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >> strength. >> >> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the >> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the >> original question, my answer would be this: >> >> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and >> wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitaherrera1991%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From lizzym0827 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 19:07:36 2014 From: lizzym0827 at gmail.com (lizzy) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:07:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Athletics in College Message-ID: <53386b78.71188c0a.33d7.ffffdfdb@mx.google.com> Hi All, Thank you very much for the advice and information. I think I'll call the sensei and just feel him out and maybe talk to him a bit, I don't want him to make assumptions about my abilities so I think that might be the best route for me. If he wants to meet in person I'll let him know that I'm willing to do that as well (to show him what I can do). I'll be sure to relay the tips you all have given here and if more information is needed I'll email off list. Thanks! Lizzy From dandrews at visi.com Sun Mar 30 19:20:51 2014 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:20:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> Message-ID: The other side of this argument is that unless you get involved and get political power yourself, then things won't change. The NFB has its strengths, and its weaknesses, and depending on the situation they are often the same thing. Dave At 01:57 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote: >Arielle, >That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >Joe, >I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations >furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in >high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this >perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs >members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are >willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense >way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those >of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with >political power are treated with hostility by some at the national >level, and more still within our local chapters. > >Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: > > > > Hi Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > > drawings and the like. > > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to > > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > > sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative > > could be a loss of programs and resources. > > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment > > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that > > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the > > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all > > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, > > this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > > > > Arielle > > > >> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >> Hello all. > >> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, > >> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all > >> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > >> Thanks. > >> Mike > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: RJ Sandefur > >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > >> list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >> > >> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without > >> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Joe" > >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >> > >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >> > >> > >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I > >>> was > >>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company > >>> > >>> of > >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a > >>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a > >>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real > >>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a > >>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend > >>> leadership > >>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's > >>> spirit, > >>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>> > >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit > >>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more > >>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing > >>> that > >>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > >>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found > >>> it > >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose > >>> of > >>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating > >>> more > >>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating > >>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called > friends from whom > >>> > >>> I > >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > >>> fundraising campaigns. > >>> > >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the > >>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development > >>> efforts > >>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in > >>> scope. > >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or > >>> the > >>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood > >>> and > >>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and > >>> resources > >>> we've already had. > >>> > >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>> professionals. > >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will > >>> be > >>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the > >>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never > >>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind > >>> when > >>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>> > >>> a > >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough > >>> to > >>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant > >>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB > >>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true > >>> to > >>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves > >>> incapable of sustaining. > >>> > >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want > >>> > >>> it > >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I > >>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of > >>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only > >>> guide > >>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the > >>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your > >>> own > >>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give > >>> you > >>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > >>> > >>> to > >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I > >>> will > >>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this > >>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is > >>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether > >>> or > >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to > >>> exist. > >>> > >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've > >>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem > >>> happier, > >>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few > >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a > >>> lesson > >>> in financial management to you. > >>> > >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would > >>> never > >>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to > >>> provide > >>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through > >>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no > >>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they > >>> couldn't > >>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel > >>> at > >>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our > >>> strength. > >>> > >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be > >>> the > >>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer > >>> the > >>> original question, my answer would be this: > >>> > >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume > >>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, > >>> and > >>> wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>> > >>> Joe From anjelinac at att.net Sun Mar 30 19:23:12 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (Anjelina) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:23:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0FB1BA8B-3A71-4A6B-92B4-B3552D11CC9A@att.net> Joe, During my many starts and stops on this list, I have always respected your viewpoints. Your comfort with your blindness, reality of the challenges we face along with your forward independent thinking are admirable traits. I have never been in the leadership circle and never will be, but I do respect the work and philosophy of the NFB. Thank you for challenging us and sharing your wisdom. -Anjelina Sent from my iPad > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Joe" wrote: > > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was > caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company of > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a > recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a > counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real > world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a > national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership > seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, > but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit > business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more > members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing that > so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was > dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of > inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating more > ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating > byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom I > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB > fundraising campaigns. > > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the > movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts > for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in scope. > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or the > only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and > raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources > we've already had. > > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind professionals. > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will be > and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the > organization because they were turned away or because they were never > welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind when > I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of a > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to > get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant > attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB > lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to > the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves > incapable of sustaining. > > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want it > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I > think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of > spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only guide > your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the > political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own > wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you > anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had to > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I will > be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this > downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is > necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to > exist. > > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've > found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem happier, > and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson > in financial management to you. > > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would never > become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide > different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through > the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no > business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't > cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at > whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our > strength. > > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the > rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the > original question, my answer would be this: > > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume > what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and > wisdom to recognize the difference. > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net From michael.capelle at frontier.com Sun Mar 30 19:23:09 2014 From: michael.capelle at frontier.com (Michael Capelle) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:23:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> Message-ID: thats the problem with this so called organization, i wont make anymore comments publically. -----Original Message----- From: Beth Taurasi Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 2:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Because of the mental health issues I've experienced, the NFB has shunned me, and any division having to do with blind/mental illness folks has been shunned by the NFB. I'm sorry, but that sounds weird to me that anyone would shun another person in the disabled community. Beth On 3/30/2014 11:53 AM, Juanita Herrera wrote: > Hello Joe, > I strongly agree with you. I once held a leadership position in the NFB. > However, due to health issues I was unable to continue holding that > position, so I found myself having to give it up. Since then maybe one or > two people have kept in touch with me. That brought me to the realization > that this particular organization only wants people when that person has > something to offer. If a person is unable to contribute, it seems like > those people are pushed to the side or forgotten. Just as you stated, I > feel that I have fallen through the cracks. In my opinion, if an > organization wants to keep its members active and it's membership growing, > then they should continue to reach out to their members even when those > members are unable to contribute because maybe at a later time they'll be > able to do so again. However, being that I have fallen through the cracks > I don't know if I'll be able to do that again. I sort of feel rejected by > my own community. Sorry for the long rant but these have been my feelings > for a while now. > Juanita > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:25 AM, "Joe" wrote: >> >> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >> was >> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >> of >> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >> leadership >> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >> spirit, >> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >> that >> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >> it >> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >> of >> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >> more >> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >> whom I >> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> fundraising campaigns. >> >> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> efforts >> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >> scope. >> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >> the >> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >> and >> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >> resources >> we've already had. >> >> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> professionals. >> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >> be >> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >> when >> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >> a >> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >> to >> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >> to >> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >> incapable of sustaining. >> >> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >> it >> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >> guide >> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >> own >> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >> you >> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> to >> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >> will >> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >> or >> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >> exist. >> >> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >> happier, >> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> lesson >> in financial management to you. >> >> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >> never >> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >> provide >> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >> couldn't >> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >> at >> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >> strength. >> >> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >> the >> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >> the >> original question, my answer would be this: >> >> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >> and >> wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitaherrera1991%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com From mikgephart at icloud.com Sun Mar 30 19:29:16 2014 From: mikgephart at icloud.com (Mikayla Gephart) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:29:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> Message-ID: <920EC95A-5EB3-497A-A4BA-DA3F54BEA369@icloud.com> I understand what is being said. However, the money is needed. I attended the 2010 Junior Science Academy, and will be helping out with the BELL program. The NFB does a lot to help others, but we need money. Mikayla Sent from my iPad On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:57 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: > Arielle, > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > > Joe, > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >> drawings and the like. >> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >> could be a loss of programs and resources. >> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>> Hello all. >>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>> Thanks. >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joe" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> >>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>> was >>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >>>> >>>> of >>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>> leadership >>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>> spirit, >>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>> >>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>>> that >>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>>> it >>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >>>> of >>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>> more >>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>> >>>> I >>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>> >>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>> efforts >>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>> scope. >>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >>>> the >>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>> and >>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>> resources >>>> we've already had. >>>> >>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>> professionals. >>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >>>> be >>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>> when >>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>> >>>> a >>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>>> to >>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>>> to >>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>> >>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >>>> >>>> it >>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>> guide >>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>> own >>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>> you >>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>> >>>> to >>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>> will >>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >>>> or >>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>>> exist. >>>> >>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>> happier, >>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>> lesson >>>> in financial management to you. >>>> >>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>> never >>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>> provide >>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>> couldn't >>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>>> at >>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>> strength. >>>> >>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>> the >>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>> the >>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>> >>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>> and >>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mikgephart%40icloud.com From anjelinac at att.net Sun Mar 30 19:30:45 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (Anjelina) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:30:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> Message-ID: <9BBE7E37-EC4A-4C47-92E1-C64677D48FE0@att.net> Hi Arielle, Your leadership and your openness to new ideas is a feature I thoroughly still enjoy on this list. :) Keep it up! I sadly have noticed that for a person who may have multiple disabilities and may not be able to follow, say structured disorcovery to a tee, they have felt put out or less than. Thankfully this does not happen to everyone, and like you said there are always other chapters and devisions. When I next talk to a few friends who have felt like outsiders I will be sure to mention this option. -Anjelina Sent from my iPad > On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize > drawings and the like. > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative > could be a loss of programs and resources. > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division > and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, > this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > > Arielle > >> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >> Hello all. >> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >> Thanks. >> Mike >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>> was >>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >>> >>> of >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>> leadership >>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>> spirit, >>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>> >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>> that >>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>> it >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >>> of >>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>> more >>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>> >>> I >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>> fundraising campaigns. >>> >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>> efforts >>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>> scope. >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >>> the >>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>> and >>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>> resources >>> we've already had. >>> >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>> professionals. >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >>> be >>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>> when >>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>> >>> a >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>> to >>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>> to >>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>> incapable of sustaining. >>> >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >>> >>> it >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>> guide >>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>> own >>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>> you >>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>> >>> to >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>> will >>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >>> or >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>> exist. >>> >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>> happier, >>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>> lesson >>> in financial management to you. >>> >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>> never >>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>> provide >>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>> couldn't >>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>> at >>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>> strength. >>> >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>> the >>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>> the >>> original question, my answer would be this: >>> >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>> and >>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net From anjelinac at att.net Sun Mar 30 19:44:29 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (Anjelina) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:44:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> Message-ID: Beth, how do you think this could improved? I know increased understanding and acceptance or mental illness can go a long way, but in the organization itself. Sadly society is still working toward accepting mental health issues as they do heart disease or diabetes. -Anjelina Sent from my iPad > On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Beth Taurasi wrote: > > Because of the mental health issues I've experienced, the NFB has shunned me, and any division having to do with blind/mental illness folks has been shunned by the NFB. I'm sorry, but that sounds weird to me that anyone would shun another person in the disabled community. > Beth >> On 3/30/2014 11:53 AM, Juanita Herrera wrote: >> Hello Joe, >> I strongly agree with you. I once held a leadership position in the NFB. However, due to health issues I was unable to continue holding that position, so I found myself having to give it up. Since then maybe one or two people have kept in touch with me. That brought me to the realization that this particular organization only wants people when that person has something to offer. If a person is unable to contribute, it seems like those people are pushed to the side or forgotten. Just as you stated, I feel that I have fallen through the cracks. In my opinion, if an organization wants to keep its members active and it's membership growing, then they should continue to reach out to their members even when those members are unable to contribute because maybe at a later time they'll be able to do so again. However, being that I have fallen through the cracks I don't know if I'll be able to do that again. I sort of feel rejected by my own community. Sorry for the long rant but these have been my feelings for a while now. >> Juanita >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:25 AM, "Joe" wrote: >>> >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was >>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company of >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership >>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, >>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>> >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing that >>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom I >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>> fundraising campaigns. >>> >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts >>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in scope. >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or the >>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and >>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources >>> we've already had. >>> >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind professionals. >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will be >>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind when >>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of a >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to >>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to >>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>> incapable of sustaining. >>> >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want it >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only guide >>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own >>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you >>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had to >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I will >>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>> exist. >>> >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem happier, >>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson >>> in financial management to you. >>> >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would never >>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide >>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't >>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at >>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>> strength. >>> >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the >>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the >>> original question, my answer would be this: >>> >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and >>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitaherrera1991%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Mar 30 20:47:35 2014 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:47:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> Good afternoon everyone, I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who runs from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of serving in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. People are only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't find other ways to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than becoming or remaining lion chasers. The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be NFB members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get over it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, becoming a better traveler will help you become more independent and create new career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of help regardless of whose camp they come from. As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like to bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive proposition. On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair for those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. Some of us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt to harm their display or interfear with their activities in any way. They did not return the favor. One year several of their members tried to knock over our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president at the time should have had the backbone to notify show officials and have them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of these ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new company we may be interested in learning about. Since we did not have a laptop with an Internet connection present to verify his story or not we were unable to do anything about it. Had we searched for the name of his company and found no reference to it online it's possible we could have had him kicked out for promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we have no patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to promote a fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. The individual I referred to in this paragraph has served as the Alamo Council of the Blind's President. On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to ride in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. Yes I know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind why we've taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best summarized in a paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin Tom Conners: "That there may never elsewhere be, Another Philadelphia tragedy, Another philadelphia tragety." The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals were involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the blind helped lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance against those who have nothing better to do than to run away from battles, sit on fences, etc there has never been another incident of that kind involving us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took action prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this is America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as they see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of others?They attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin a similar program and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The Braille Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. Again this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone wishes to be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need they need to meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host agency decides that immersion training is to be used in the operation of a particular program or service anyone wishing to partner with this agency will need to endorse immersion training or they will not be considered as a venture partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in the operation of a program or service offered by a blindness agency that chooses to use immersion training they'll need to over hall their philosophy and adopt immersion training as a viable way to operate a program. If they're unwilling to do that they will be filtered and would do well not to complain that they were left out of consideration and would do well to refrain from trying to undermind the activities of such an agency because they were unwilling to adapt their approach and philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs of the blind. Again we have no patience with losers according to our standards! As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become yet we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll land that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge blind individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop multiple income channels should something happen to your primary income source and so you will have the funds to support causes such as the activities of the NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a blind child in our area to encourage her to do this so she will be bettter able to meet her blind child's needs as she progresses through school and college and to have financial resources that will last her for her entire life instead of just 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high unemployment rate we face. And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a few. The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children to develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school district is unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can hire someone to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for another blind individual. If necessary they could home-school their blind child and give him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public schools. Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person to attend one of our centers since we urged them and their families to create ,multiple income streams they could pay for it themselves and to Hell with the rehab system. The more financial resources you have at your disposal that you can control the better you can provide for your blind child or fund the training you yourself wish to obtain. We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're heeding the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in one basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y for short understand the value of this advice and are creating multiple income streams for themselves should something happen to them or their career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need to become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons and their families to do likewise. Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In the late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in a well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level of success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of the products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet portals in which one can transact business, yet this individual and his wife built an empire using this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with the company in question to insure that this is so and they have greatly appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would think other blind individuals would have followed his lead in large numbers given the technology and services now available to those persuing careers in the direct selling industry. We find this state of affairs sad and shameful! This is something that can change in the years ahead. It's not too late. Anyone wanting more information about such opportunities is strongly advised to seek it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, false, and misleading. We're neither talking about your grandmother's business opportunity or NFB. If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to change the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to career options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last them a lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row when those years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice that will allow its members and others to have the resources needed to support its programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a deasent quality of life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. Peter Donahue --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 21:05:52 2014 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:05:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> Message-ID: <8F1C7FD1-B3A4-4A98-9FB7-08C3F39E7E59@gmail.com> This is exactly the problem I have with the way some within the organization play the political game. The feud with the ACB is nothing but a distraction. It's a tool to give a cub set of members something to rally behind, because nothing says "I'm a dedicated member of the in-group" like sharing a common out-group rival. And why do you need a computer with internet connection for verification, simply to be a respectful individual and hear a colleague's proposal? Stating that you run a company is not by any means sufficient to scam anyone. And you can always check when you get home if you're so inclined, but to turn them away entirely and claim it is because your laptop isn't handy makes me suspect another motive for turning away a member of the out-group. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:47 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > > > Good afternoon everyone, > > I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who runs from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of serving in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. People are only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't find other ways to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than becoming or remaining lion chasers. > > The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be NFB members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get over it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, becoming a better traveler will help you become more independent and create new career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of help regardless of whose camp they come from. > > As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like to bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive proposition. > > On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair for those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. Some of us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt to harm their display or interfear with their activities in any way. They did not return the favor. One year several of their members tried to knock over our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president at the time should have had the backbone to notify show officials and have them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of these ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new company we may be interested in learning about. Since we did not have a laptop with an Internet connection present to verify his story or not we were unable to do anything about it. Had we searched for the name of his company and found no reference to it online it's possible we could have had him kicked out for promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we have no patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to promote a fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. The individual I referred to in this paragraph has served as the Alamo Council of the Blind's President. > > On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to ride in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. Yes I know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind why we've taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best summarized in a paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin Tom Conners: > "That there may never elsewhere be, > Another Philadelphia tragedy, > Another philadelphia tragety." > > The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals were involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the blind helped lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance against those who have nothing better to do than to run away from battles, sit on fences, etc there has never been another incident of that kind involving us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took action prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. > > Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this is America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as they see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of others?They attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin a similar program and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The Braille Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. > > One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. Again this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone wishes to be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need they need to meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host agency decides that immersion training is to be used in the operation of a particular program or service anyone wishing to partner with this agency will need to endorse immersion training or they will not be considered as a venture partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in the operation of a program or service offered by a blindness agency that chooses to use immersion training they'll need to over hall their philosophy and adopt immersion training as a viable way to operate a program. If they're unwilling to do that they will be filtered and would do well not to complain that they were left out of consideration and would do well to refrain from trying to undermind the activities of such an agency because they were unwilling to adapt their approach and philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs of the blind. Again we have no patience with losers according to our standards! > > As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become yet we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll land that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge blind individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop multiple income channels should something happen to your primary income source and so you will have the funds to support causes such as the activities of the NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a blind child in our area to encourage her to do this so she will be bettter able to meet her blind child's needs as she progresses through school and college and to have financial resources that will last her for her entire life instead of just 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high unemployment rate we face. > > And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a few. The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children to develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school district is unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can hire someone to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for another blind individual. If necessary they could home-school their blind child and give him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public schools. Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person to attend one of our centers since we urged them and their families to create ,multiple income streams they could pay for it themselves and to Hell with the rehab system. The more financial resources you have at your disposal that you can control the better you can provide for your blind child or fund the training you yourself wish to obtain. > > We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're heeding the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in one basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y for short understand the value of this advice and are creating multiple income streams for themselves should something happen to them or their career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need to become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons and their families to do likewise. > > > Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In the late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in a well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level of success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of the products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet portals in which one can transact business, yet this individual and his wife built an empire using this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with the company in question to insure that this is so and they have greatly appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would think other blind individuals would have followed his lead in large numbers given the technology and services now available to those persuing careers in the direct selling industry. We find this state of affairs sad and shameful! This is something that can change in the years ahead. It's not too late. Anyone wanting more information about such opportunities is strongly advised to seek it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, false, and misleading. We're neither talking about your grandmother's business opportunity or NFB. > > > > If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to change the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to career options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last them a lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row when those years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice that will allow its members and others to have the resources needed to support its programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a deasent quality of life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. > > Peter Donahue > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From michael.capelle at frontier.com Sun Mar 30 21:25:51 2014 From: michael.capelle at frontier.com (Michael Capelle) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:25:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <8F1C7FD1-B3A4-4A98-9FB7-08C3F39E7E59@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com><7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> <8F1C7FD1-B3A4-4A98-9FB7-08C3F39E7E59@gmail.com> Message-ID: <725CB130F6C74DF4AE1549F3D1ED9393@MikePC> as a member of ACB, peter, you are sadly mistaken, as most of you NFB people are, you sit and bitch, bitch about how ACB is trash, how ACB does this and that, as a proud member of ACB, we do not sit and bash NFB, we dont sit and call your president a dictator, even though my personal opinion, is that he is, how if someone doesn't agree with nfb philosophy, you shun them and kick them to the curb as if they are junk, calling people traders and the like to boost your ego does not and will not achieve anything, you are the sad depressed people who need to see the light or are you just to blind to see the light? Lets take a trip back in time if we may, to the year 2000. ACB held there conference/convention in DesMoines. Durring the convention, ACB President Chris Grey and other members were treated pourly. Based on what I have been told,, you nfb people treated acb like we were the plague. -----Original Message----- From: Jamie Principato Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 4:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB This is exactly the problem I have with the way some within the organization play the political game. The feud with the ACB is nothing but a distraction. It's a tool to give a cub set of members something to rally behind, because nothing says "I'm a dedicated member of the in-group" like sharing a common out-group rival. And why do you need a computer with internet connection for verification, simply to be a respectful individual and hear a colleague's proposal? Stating that you run a company is not by any means sufficient to scam anyone. And you can always check when you get home if you're so inclined, but to turn them away entirely and claim it is because your laptop isn't handy makes me suspect another motive for turning away a member of the out-group. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:47 PM, "Peter Donahue" > wrote: > > > Good afternoon everyone, > > I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who runs > from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of serving > in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. People are > only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't find other ways > to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than becoming or remaining > lion chasers. > > The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being > offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be NFB > members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get over > it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, becoming a > better traveler will help you become more independent and create new > career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of help regardless > of whose camp they come from. > > As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like to > bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served > notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do > well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a > few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the > conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them > pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in > this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive > proposition. > > On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair for > those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. Some of > us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt to harm > their display or interfear with their activities in any way. They did not > return the favor. One year several of their members tried to knock over > our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president > at the time should have had the backbone to notify show officials and have > them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of these > ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new company we may be > interested in learning about. Since we did not have a laptop with an > Internet connection present to verify his story or not we were unable to > do anything about it. Had we searched for the name of his company and > found no reference to it online it's possible we could have had him kicked > out for promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we have no > patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to promote a > fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. The individual I > referred to in this paragraph has served as the Alamo Council of the > Blind's President. > > On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and > services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for > example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to ride > in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. Yes I > know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind why we've > taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best summarized in a > paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin Tom Conners: > "That there may never elsewhere be, > Another Philadelphia tragedy, > Another philadelphia tragety." > > The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals > were involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. > Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the blind helped > lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance against those > who have nothing better to do than to run away from battles, sit on > fences, etc there has never been another incident of that kind involving > us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took > action prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to > our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. > > Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our > programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this is > America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as they > see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of others?They > attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the > way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin a similar program > and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The Braille > Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. > > One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind > community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to > all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria > these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling > like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. Again > this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone wishes to > be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need they need to > meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host agency decides > that immersion training is to be used in the operation of a particular > program or service anyone wishing to partner with this agency will need to > endorse immersion training or they will not be considered as a venture > partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in the operation of a program > or service offered by a blindness agency that chooses to use immersion > training they'll need to over hall their philosophy and adopt immersion > training as a viable way to operate a program. If they're unwilling to do > that they will be filtered and would do well not to complain that they > were left out of consideration and would do well to refrain from trying to > undermind the activities of such an agency because they were unwilling to > adapt their approach and philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs > of the blind. Again we have no patience with losers according to our > standards! > > As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to > the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the > NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become yet > we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll land > that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge blind > individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop multiple > income channels should something happen to your primary income source and > so you will have the funds to support causes such as the activities of the > NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a blind child in our area > to encourage her to do this so she will be bettter able to meet her blind > child's needs as she progresses through school and college and to have > financial resources that will last her for her entire life instead of just > 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high unemployment rate we > face. > > And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the > refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children > and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a few. > The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children to > develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school district is > unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can hire someone > to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for another blind > individual. If necessary they could home-school their blind child and give > him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public schools. > Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person to attend one of > our centers since we urged them and their families to create ,multiple > income streams they could pay for it themselves and to Hell with the rehab > system. The more financial resources you have at your disposal that you > can control the better you can provide for your blind child or fund the > training you yourself wish to obtain. > > We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. > Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're heeding > the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in one > basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y > for short understand the value of this advice and are creating multiple > income streams for themselves should something happen to them or their > career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a > part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals > should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need to > become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons and their > families to do likewise. > > > Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In the > late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in a > well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level of > success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of the > products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet portals in > which one can transact business, yet this individual and his wife built an > empire using this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our > accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with > the company in question to insure that this is so and they have greatly > appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would think other blind > individuals would have followed his lead in large numbers given the > technology and services now available to those persuing careers in the > direct selling industry. We find this state of affairs sad and shameful! > This is something that can change in the years ahead. It's not too late. > Anyone wanting more information about such opportunities is strongly > advised to seek it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like > the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread > information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, false, and > misleading. We're neither talking about your grandmother's business > opportunity or NFB. > > > > If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to change > the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to career > options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last them a > lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row when those > years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice that will allow > its members and others to have the resources needed to support its > programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a deasent quality of > life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. > > Peter Donahue > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 21:40:05 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 17:40:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com><7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1><8F1C7FD1-B3A4-4A98-9FB7-08C3F39E7E59@gmail.com> <725CB130F6C74DF4AE1549F3D1ED9393@MikePC> Message-ID: Sir, that's why I'm not a member of either organization! Both of you gripe and complaine and both organizations why the blind have a seventy percent unemployment rate! RJ Sandefur ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Capelle" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > as a member of ACB, peter, you are sadly mistaken, as most of you NFB > people are, you sit and bitch, bitch about how ACB is trash, how ACB does > this and that, as a proud member of ACB, we do not sit and bash NFB, we > dont sit and call your president a dictator, even though my personal > opinion, is that he is, how if someone doesn't agree with nfb philosophy, > you shun them and kick them to the curb as if they are junk, calling > people traders and the like to boost your ego does not and will not > achieve anything, you are the sad depressed people who need to see the > light or are you just to blind to see the light? > Lets take a trip back in time if we may, to the year 2000. ACB held there > conference/convention in DesMoines. Durring the convention, ACB President > Chris Grey and other members were treated pourly. Based on what I have > been told,, you nfb people treated acb like we were the plague. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jamie Principato > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 4:05 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > This is exactly the problem I have with the way some within the > organization play the political game. The feud with the ACB is nothing but > a distraction. It's a tool to give a cub set of members something to rally > behind, because nothing says "I'm a dedicated member of the in-group" like > sharing a common out-group rival. > > And why do you need a computer with internet connection for verification, > simply to be a respectful individual and hear a colleague's proposal? > Stating that you run a company is not by any means sufficient to scam > anyone. And you can always check when you get home if you're so inclined, > but to turn them away entirely and claim it is because your laptop isn't > handy makes me suspect another motive for turning away a member of the > out-group. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:47 PM, "Peter Donahue" >> wrote: >> >> >> Good afternoon everyone, >> >> I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who >> runs from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of >> serving in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. >> People are only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't >> find other ways to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than >> becoming or remaining lion chasers. >> >> The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being >> offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be >> NFB members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get >> over it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, >> becoming a better traveler will help you become more independent and >> create new career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of help >> regardless of whose camp they come from. >> >> As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like to >> bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served >> notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do >> well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a >> few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the >> conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them >> pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in >> this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive >> proposition. >> >> On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair for >> those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. Some of >> us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt to harm >> their display or interfear with their activities in any way. They did not >> return the favor. One year several of their members tried to knock over >> our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president >> at the time should have had the backbone to notify show officials and >> have them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of >> these ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new company we >> may be interested in learning about. Since we did not have a laptop with >> an Internet connection present to verify his story or not we were unable >> to do anything about it. Had we searched for the name of his company and >> found no reference to it online it's possible we could have had him >> kicked out for promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we >> have no patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to >> promote a fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. The >> individual I referred to in this paragraph has served as the Alamo >> Council of the Blind's President. >> >> On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and >> services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for >> example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to >> ride in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. >> Yes I know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind >> why we've taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best >> summarized in a paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin >> Tom Conners: >> "That there may never elsewhere be, >> Another Philadelphia tragedy, >> Another philadelphia tragety." >> >> The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals >> were involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. >> Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the blind helped >> lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance against those >> who have nothing better to do than to run away from battles, sit on >> fences, etc there has never been another incident of that kind involving >> us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took >> action prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to >> our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. >> >> Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our >> programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this is >> America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as they >> see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of others?They >> attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the >> way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin a similar program >> and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The Braille >> Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. >> >> One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind >> community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to >> all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria >> these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling >> like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. >> Again this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone >> wishes to be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need >> they need to meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host >> agency decides that immersion training is to be used in the operation of >> a particular program or service anyone wishing to partner with this >> agency will need to endorse immersion training or they will not be >> considered as a venture partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in the >> operation of a program or service offered by a blindness agency that >> chooses to use immersion training they'll need to over hall their >> philosophy and adopt immersion training as a viable way to operate a >> program. If they're unwilling to do that they will be filtered and would >> do well not to complain that they were left out of consideration and >> would do well to refrain from trying to undermind the activities of such >> an agency because they were unwilling to adapt their approach and >> philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs of the blind. Again we >> have no patience with losers according to our standards! >> >> As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to >> the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the >> NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become >> yet we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll >> land that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge >> blind individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop >> multiple income channels should something happen to your primary income >> source and so you will have the funds to support causes such as the >> activities of the NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a blind >> child in our area to encourage her to do this so she will be bettter able >> to meet her blind child's needs as she progresses through school and >> college and to have financial resources that will last her for her entire >> life instead of just 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high >> unemployment rate we face. >> >> And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the >> refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children >> and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a few. >> The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children to >> develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school district is >> unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can hire someone >> to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for another blind >> individual. If necessary they could home-school their blind child and >> give him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public >> schools. Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person to >> attend one of our centers since we urged them and their families to >> create ,multiple income streams they could pay for it themselves and to >> Hell with the rehab system. The more financial resources you have at your >> disposal that you can control the better you can provide for your blind >> child or fund the training you yourself wish to obtain. >> >> We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. >> Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're heeding >> the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in one >> basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y >> for short understand the value of this advice and are creating multiple >> income streams for themselves should something happen to them or their >> career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a >> part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals >> should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need to >> become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons and their >> families to do likewise. >> >> >> Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In >> the late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in >> a well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level of >> success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of the >> products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet portals in >> which one can transact business, yet this individual and his wife built >> an empire using this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our >> accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with >> the company in question to insure that this is so and they have greatly >> appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would think other blind >> individuals would have followed his lead in large numbers given the >> technology and services now available to those persuing careers in the >> direct selling industry. We find this state of affairs sad and shameful! >> This is something that can change in the years ahead. It's not too late. >> Anyone wanting more information about such opportunities is strongly >> advised to seek it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like >> the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread >> information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, false, >> and misleading. We're neither talking about your grandmother's business >> opportunity or NFB. >> >> >> >> If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to >> change the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to >> career options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last >> them a lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row >> when those years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice >> that will allow its members and others to have the resources needed to >> support its programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a deasent >> quality of life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From clb5590 at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 22:00:29 2014 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:00:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Email list courtesies reminder Message-ID: Hi all, I just wanted to pass along a friendly reminder that correspondence sent to the List should contain language fit for professional correspondence. In other words, not including swear words or anything you wouldn't want your boss to read would be awesome. I joined this list when I was very young and have read messages from people of all walks of life and preferences, so let's be respectful. Thanks. :) Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology: UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com Sent from my iPhone From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 30 22:45:13 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:45:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question About JAWS and Ms Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6502462421594D0DA20720F81DF8653F@OwnerPC> I think Access became mostly inaccessible when they came out with 2010. Sorry to say this. I'm afraid there's no solution -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:17 PM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Cc: Jobs for the Blind Subject: [nabs-l] Question About JAWS and Ms Access Hi all, I have to use Access for my job and I am currently having trouble with this. We have a database of study participants, and there is a table consisting of several columns with information about each participant, and each row is dedicated to one participant. I am supposed to be able to click on the participant's id number which is contained in one of the columns of the table to bring up their record to view and update their contact information. I have tried everything I can think of, pressing enter, space, right clicking and looking through the options, using my JAWS cursor, etc., and I cannot bring up a participant's record. Does anyone have any advice about activating items in tables in Access? I have looked through the JAWS Access and table help and only got keystrokes regarding reading information in tables, and Google searches haven't come up with anything either. Thanks, -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 30 22:53:21 2014 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:53:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1F1FDFD1CB224A259C3CF995DABF73C9@OwnerPC> Beth, Oh my goodness, I don't know where you had this experience. But, I'd have to say that we have people with other disabilities in our local chapters. I don't think your perception is accurate of NFB totally. NFB has many diverse members. However, I think your individual experience with a particular chapter may make you characterize it this way. I can see why those with multiple disabilities may feel unwelcome in some chapters, yet, I see nothing in our constitution or philosophy precluding those with mental disabilities from joining. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Beth Taurasi Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Because of the mental health issues I've experienced, the NFB has shunned me, and any division having to do with blind/mental illness folks has been shunned by the NFB. I'm sorry, but that sounds weird to me that anyone would shun another person in the disabled community. Beth On 3/30/2014 11:53 AM, Juanita Herrera wrote: > Hello Joe, > I strongly agree with you. I once held a leadership position in the NFB. > However, due to health issues I was unable to continue holding that > position, so I found myself having to give it up. Since then maybe one or > two people have kept in touch with me. That brought me to the realization > that this particular organization only wants people when that person has > something to offer. If a person is unable to contribute, it seems like > those people are pushed to the side or forgotten. Just as you stated, I > feel that I have fallen through the cracks. In my opinion, if an > organization wants to keep its members active and it's membership growing, > then they should continue to reach out to their members even when those > members are unable to contribute because maybe at a later time they'll be > able to do so again. However, being that I have fallen through the cracks > I don't know if I'll be able to do that again. I sort of feel rejected by > my own community. Sorry for the long rant but these have been my feelings > for a while now. > Juanita > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:25 AM, "Joe" wrote: >> >> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >> was >> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >> of >> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >> leadership >> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >> spirit, >> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >> >> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >> that >> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >> it >> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >> of >> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >> more >> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >> whom I >> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >> fundraising campaigns. >> >> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >> efforts >> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >> scope. >> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >> the >> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >> and >> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >> resources >> we've already had. >> >> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >> professionals. >> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >> be >> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >> when >> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >> a >> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >> to >> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >> to >> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >> incapable of sustaining. >> >> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >> it >> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >> guide >> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >> own >> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >> you >> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >> to >> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >> will >> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >> or >> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >> exist. >> >> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >> happier, >> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >> lesson >> in financial management to you. >> >> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >> never >> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >> provide >> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >> couldn't >> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >> at >> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >> strength. >> >> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >> the >> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >> the >> original question, my answer would be this: >> >> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >> and >> wisdom to recognize the difference. >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitaherrera1991%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 31 00:06:31 2014 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 19:06:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com><7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1><8F1C7FD1-B3A4-4A98-9FB7-08C3F39E7E59@gmail.com><725CB130F6C74DF4AE1549F3D1ED9393@MikePC> Message-ID: Good evening everyone, It's also the reason why the blind community would be better off without fence sitters too. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > Sir, that's why I'm not a member of either organization! Both of you gripe > and complaine and both organizations why the blind have a seventy percent > unemployment rate! RJ Sandefur > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Capelle" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > >> as a member of ACB, peter, you are sadly mistaken, as most of you NFB >> people are, you sit and bitch, bitch about how ACB is trash, how ACB does >> this and that, as a proud member of ACB, we do not sit and bash NFB, we >> dont sit and call your president a dictator, even though my personal >> opinion, is that he is, how if someone doesn't agree with nfb philosophy, >> you shun them and kick them to the curb as if they are junk, calling >> people traders and the like to boost your ego does not and will not >> achieve anything, you are the sad depressed people who need to see the >> light or are you just to blind to see the light? >> Lets take a trip back in time if we may, to the year 2000. ACB held >> there conference/convention in DesMoines. Durring the convention, ACB >> President Chris Grey and other members were treated pourly. Based on >> what I have been told,, you nfb people treated acb like we were the >> plague. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jamie Principato >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 4:05 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> This is exactly the problem I have with the way some within the >> organization play the political game. The feud with the ACB is nothing >> but a distraction. It's a tool to give a cub set of members something to >> rally behind, because nothing says "I'm a dedicated member of the >> in-group" like sharing a common out-group rival. >> >> And why do you need a computer with internet connection for verification, >> simply to be a respectful individual and hear a colleague's proposal? >> Stating that you run a company is not by any means sufficient to scam >> anyone. And you can always check when you get home if you're so inclined, >> but to turn them away entirely and claim it is because your laptop isn't >> handy makes me suspect another motive for turning away a member of the >> out-group. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:47 PM, "Peter Donahue" >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Good afternoon everyone, >>> >>> I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who >>> runs from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of >>> serving in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. >>> People are only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't >>> find other ways to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than >>> becoming or remaining lion chasers. >>> >>> The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being >>> offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be >>> NFB members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get >>> over it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, >>> becoming a better traveler will help you become more independent and >>> create new career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of >>> help regardless of whose camp they come from. >>> >>> As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like >>> to bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served >>> notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do >>> well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a >>> few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the >>> conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them >>> pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage >>> in this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive >>> proposition. >>> >>> On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair >>> for those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. >>> Some of us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt >>> to harm their display or interfear with their activities in any way. >>> They did not return the favor. One year several of their members tried >>> to knock over our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on >>> it. Our president at the time should have had the backbone to notify >>> show officials and have them removed from the event but didn't. On >>> another occasion one of these ACB folks tried to tell us he was the >>> president of a new company we may be interested in learning about. Since >>> we did not have a laptop with an Internet connection present to verify >>> his story or not we were unable to do anything about it. Had we searched >>> for the name of his company and found no reference to it online it's >>> possible we could have had him kicked out for promoting a scam during >>> the expo. By now you know that we have no patience with those who >>> misrepresent themselves by atempting to promote a fraudulant company or >>> engage in destructive behavior. The individual I referred to in this >>> paragraph has served as the Alamo Council of the Blind's President. >>> >>> On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and >>> services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for >>> example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to >>> ride in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. >>> Yes I know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind >>> why we've taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best >>> summarized in a paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin >>> Tom Conners: >>> "That there may never elsewhere be, >>> Another Philadelphia tragedy, >>> Another philadelphia tragety." >>> >>> The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals >>> were involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia >>> Pennsylvania. Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the >>> blind helped lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance >>> against those who have nothing better to do than to run away from >>> battles, sit on fences, etc there has never been another incident of >>> that kind involving us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the >>> warning signs and took action prior to that year's national convention >>> to fend it off. Thanks to our alertness that national convention went >>> without a hitch. >>> >>> Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our >>> programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this >>> is America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as >>> they see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of >>> others?They attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they >>> didn't like the way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin >>> a similar program and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we >>> now host The Braille Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice >>> about that one. >>> >>> One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind >>> community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to >>> all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria >>> these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling >>> like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. >>> Again this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone >>> wishes to be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need >>> they need to meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host >>> agency decides that immersion training is to be used in the operation of >>> a particular program or service anyone wishing to partner with this >>> agency will need to endorse immersion training or they will not be >>> considered as a venture partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in >>> the operation of a program or service offered by a blindness agency that >>> chooses to use immersion training they'll need to over hall their >>> philosophy and adopt immersion training as a viable way to operate a >>> program. If they're unwilling to do that they will be filtered and would >>> do well not to complain that they were left out of consideration and >>> would do well to refrain from trying to undermind the activities of such >>> an agency because they were unwilling to adapt their approach and >>> philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs of the blind. Again we >>> have no patience with losers according to our standards! >>> >>> As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to >>> the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the >>> NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become >>> yet we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll >>> land that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge >>> blind individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop >>> multiple income channels should something happen to your primary income >>> source and so you will have the funds to support causes such as the >>> activities of the NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a >>> blind child in our area to encourage her to do this so she will be >>> bettter able to meet her blind child's needs as she progresses through >>> school and college and to have financial resources that will last her >>> for her entire life instead of just 40 or 50 years of it if even that >>> given the high unemployment rate we face. >>> >>> And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the >>> refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children >>> and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a >>> few. The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children >>> to develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school >>> district is unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can >>> hire someone to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for >>> another blind individual. If necessary they could home-school their >>> blind child and give him/her an education far superior to that offered >>> in many public schools. Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a >>> blind person to attend one of our centers since we urged them and their >>> families to create ,multiple income streams they could pay for it >>> themselves and to Hell with the rehab system. The more financial >>> resources you have at your disposal that you can control the better you >>> can provide for your blind child or fund the training you yourself wish >>> to obtain. >>> >>> We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. >>> Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're >>> heeding the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in >>> one basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or >>> Gen-Y for short understand the value of this advice and are creating >>> multiple income streams for themselves should something happen to them >>> or their career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are >>> considered to be a part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts >>> blind individuals should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of >>> the blind need to become more agressive in this respect and urge blind >>> persons and their families to do likewise. >>> >>> >>> Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In >>> the late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in >>> a well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level >>> of success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of >>> the products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet >>> portals in which one can transact business, yet this individual and his >>> wife built an empire using this concept. The online resources I'm >>> speaking of our accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have >>> worked closely with the company in question to insure that this is so >>> and they have greatly appreciated our assistance. Given his success one >>> would think other blind individuals would have followed his lead in >>> large numbers given the technology and services now available to those >>> persuing careers in the direct selling industry. We find this state of >>> affairs sad and shameful! This is something that can change in the years >>> ahead. It's not too late. Anyone wanting more information about such >>> opportunities is strongly advised to seek it from credible sources such >>> as attending a meeting like the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB >>> Lists have been used to spread information concerning particular >>> companies that is inaccurate, false, and misleading. We're neither >>> talking about your grandmother's business opportunity or NFB. >>> >>> >>> >>> If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to >>> change the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to >>> career options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last >>> them a lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row >>> when those years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice >>> that will allow its members and others to have the resources needed to >>> support its programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a >>> deasent quality of life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best >>> everyone. >>> >>> Peter Donahue >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 00:39:08 2014 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:39:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> Message-ID: <504FAFB9-ECBC-4DE4-BC3F-B37BC900A88D@gmail.com> This is exactly the problem I have with the way some within the organization play the political game. The feud with the ACB is nothing but a distraction. It's a tool to give a cub set of members something to rally behind, because nothing says "I'm a dedicated member of the in-group" like sharing a common out-group rival. And why do you need a computer with internet connection for verification, simply to be a respectful individual and hear a colleague's proposal? Stating that you run a company is not by any means sufficient to scam anyone. And you can always check when you get home if you're so inclined, but to turn them away entirely and claim it is because your laptop isn't handy makes me suspect another motive for turning away a member of the out-group. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:47 PM, "Peter Donahue" wrote: > > > Good afternoon everyone, > > I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who runs from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of serving in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. People are only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't find other ways to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than becoming or remaining lion chasers. > > The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be NFB members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get over it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, becoming a better traveler will help you become more independent and create new career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of help regardless of whose camp they come from. > > As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like to bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive proposition. > > On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair for those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. Some of us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt to harm their display or interfear with their activities in any way. They did not return the favor. One year several of their members tried to knock over our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president at the time should have had the backbone to notify show officials and have them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of these ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new company we may be interested in learning about. Since we did not have a laptop with an Internet connection present to verify his story or not we were unable to do anything about it. Had we searched for the name of his company and found no reference to it online it's possible we could have had him kicked out for promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we have no patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to promote a fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. The individual I referred to in this paragraph has served as the Alamo Council of the Blind's President. > > On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to ride in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. Yes I know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind why we've taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best summarized in a paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin Tom Conners: > "That there may never elsewhere be, > Another Philadelphia tragedy, > Another philadelphia tragety." > > The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals were involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the blind helped lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance against those who have nothing better to do than to run away from battles, sit on fences, etc there has never been another incident of that kind involving us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took action prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. > > Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this is America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as they see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of others?They attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin a similar program and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The Braille Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. > > One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. Again this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone wishes to be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need they need to meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host agency decides that immersion training is to be used in the operation of a particular program or service anyone wishing to partner with this agency will need to endorse immersion training or they will not be considered as a venture partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in the operation of a program or service offered by a blindness agency that chooses to use immersion training they'll need to over hall their philosophy and adopt immersion training as a viable way to operate a program. If they're unwilling to do that they will be filtered and would do well not to complain that they were left out of consideration and would do well to refrain from trying to undermind the activities of such an agency because they were unwilling to adapt their approach and philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs of the blind. Again we have no patience with losers according to our standards! > > As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become yet we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll land that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge blind individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop multiple income channels should something happen to your primary income source and so you will have the funds to support causes such as the activities of the NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a blind child in our area to encourage her to do this so she will be bettter able to meet her blind child's needs as she progresses through school and college and to have financial resources that will last her for her entire life instead of just 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high unemployment rate we face. > > And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a few. The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children to develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school district is unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can hire someone to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for another blind individual. If necessary they could home-school their blind child and give him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public schools. Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person to attend one of our centers since we urged them and their families to create ,multiple income streams they could pay for it themselves and to Hell with the rehab system. The more financial resources you have at your disposal that you can control the better you can provide for your blind child or fund the training you yourself wish to obtain. > > We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're heeding the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in one basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y for short understand the value of this advice and are creating multiple income streams for themselves should something happen to them or their career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need to become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons and their families to do likewise. > > > Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In the late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in a well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level of success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of the products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet portals in which one can transact business, yet this individual and his wife built an empire using this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with the company in question to insure that this is so and they have greatly appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would think other blind individuals would have followed his lead in large numbers given the technology and services now available to those persuing careers in the direct selling industry. We find this state of affairs sad and shameful! This is something that can change in the years ahead. It's not too late. Anyone wanting more information about such opportunities is strongly advised to seek it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, false, and misleading. We're neither talking about your grandmother's business opportunity or NFB. > > > > If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to change the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to career options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last them a lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row when those years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice that will allow its members and others to have the resources needed to support its programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a deasent quality of life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. > > Peter Donahue > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Mon Mar 31 00:39:22 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:39:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5338B93A.1070707@comcast.net> I think it could improve by way of electing said people to a vice presidential or presidential position without thinking that oh, they're psychotic or oh, this person's not what WE want as the NFB standard or whatever. I am not popular and don't get opportunities to lead a group, and was told by my own parents that I'm not capable of leading a group. How wrong is this! I may end up leading a family if that is true, and the only way the perception of mentally ill and blind people can change is that if we just plain stop shunning them. I will soon be writing about the trials and successes and questions about such things in my blog, I have a new wordpress blog so you all can check it out. :) Beth On 3/30/2014 1:44 PM, Anjelina wrote: > Beth, how do you think this could improved? I know increased understanding and acceptance or mental illness can go a long way, but in the organization itself. > Sadly society is still working toward accepting mental health issues as they do heart disease or diabetes. > > > -Anjelina > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Beth Taurasi wrote: >> >> Because of the mental health issues I've experienced, the NFB has shunned me, and any division having to do with blind/mental illness folks has been shunned by the NFB. I'm sorry, but that sounds weird to me that anyone would shun another person in the disabled community. >> Beth >>> On 3/30/2014 11:53 AM, Juanita Herrera wrote: >>> Hello Joe, >>> I strongly agree with you. I once held a leadership position in the NFB. However, due to health issues I was unable to continue holding that position, so I found myself having to give it up. Since then maybe one or two people have kept in touch with me. That brought me to the realization that this particular organization only wants people when that person has something to offer. If a person is unable to contribute, it seems like those people are pushed to the side or forgotten. Just as you stated, I feel that I have fallen through the cracks. In my opinion, if an organization wants to keep its members active and it's membership growing, then they should continue to reach out to their members even when those members are unable to contribute because maybe at a later time they'll be able to do so again. However, being that I have fallen through the cracks I don't know if I'll be able to do that again. I sort of feel rejected by my own community. Sorry for the long rant but these have been my feelings for a while now. >>> Juanita >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:25 AM, "Joe" wrote: >>>> >>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I was >>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company of >>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend leadership >>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, >>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>> >>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing that >>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it >>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of >>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom I >>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>> >>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development efforts >>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in scope. >>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or the >>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood and >>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and resources >>>> we've already had. >>>> >>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind professionals. >>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will be >>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind when >>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of a >>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough to >>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true to >>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>> >>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want it >>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only guide >>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own >>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you >>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had to >>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I will >>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether or >>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>>> exist. >>>> >>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem happier, >>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a lesson >>>> in financial management to you. >>>> >>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would never >>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to provide >>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't >>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at >>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>> strength. >>>> >>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be the >>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer the >>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>> >>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, and >>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitaherrera1991%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Mon Mar 31 00:47:10 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:47:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <1F1FDFD1CB224A259C3CF995DABF73C9@OwnerPC> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com> <53386A80.4070202@comcast.net> <1F1FDFD1CB224A259C3CF995DABF73C9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5338BB0E.2080703@comcast.net> I could have been more involvd in the Denver chapter, but I feel completely drowned out by the voices of professionals, blind parents, etc. Brent Batron, for instance, and his wife, Ina, got a paper article written about them and their kids. Kids! They got kids and a decent life together. The headline was amazing, and I am not complaining that they shouldn't have such a thing, but because they are both what I call "vanilla" blind, they were able to get jobs and such. I as a someone with multiple disabilities, probably PTSD as a result of parental misconduct and some forms of abuse and chemical restraint and attempted brainwashing about my capabilities, am not welcome to the elite ranks of the NFB or ACB. Sorry. Beth On 3/30/2014 4:53 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Beth, > Oh my goodness, I don't know where you had this experience. But, I'd > have to say that we have people with other disabilities in our local > chapters. > I don't think your perception is accurate of NFB totally. NFB has many > diverse members. However, I think your individual experience with a > particular chapter may make you characterize it this way. I can see > why those with multiple disabilities may feel unwelcome in some > chapters, yet, I see nothing in our constitution or philosophy > precluding those with mental disabilities from joining. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Beth Taurasi > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > Because of the mental health issues I've experienced, the NFB has > shunned me, and any division having to do with blind/mental illness > folks has been shunned by the NFB. I'm sorry, but that sounds weird to > me that anyone would shun another person in the disabled community. > Beth > On 3/30/2014 11:53 AM, Juanita Herrera wrote: >> Hello Joe, >> I strongly agree with you. I once held a leadership position in the >> NFB. However, due to health issues I was unable to continue holding >> that position, so I found myself having to give it up. Since then >> maybe one or two people have kept in touch with me. That brought me >> to the realization that this particular organization only wants >> people when that person has something to offer. If a person is unable >> to contribute, it seems like those people are pushed to the side or >> forgotten. Just as you stated, I feel that I have fallen through the >> cracks. In my opinion, if an organization wants to keep its members >> active and it's membership growing, then they should continue to >> reach out to their members even when those members are unable to >> contribute because maybe at a later time they'll be able to do so >> again. However, being that I have fallen through the cracks I don't >> know if I'll be able to do that again. I sort of feel rejected by my >> own community. Sorry for the long rant but these have been my >> feelings for a while now. >> Juanita >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 9:25 AM, "Joe" wrote: >>> >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there >>> I was >>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>> company of >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>> real >>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>> leadership >>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>> spirit, >>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>> >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>> disappointing that >>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>> found it >>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>> dose of >>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of >>> generating more >>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>> frustrating >>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends >>> from whom I >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>> fundraising campaigns. >>> >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>> the >>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>> efforts >>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national >>> in scope. >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>> top, or the >>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new >>> blood and >>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>> resources >>> we've already had. >>> >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>> professionals. >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>> will be >>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in >>> mind when >>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too >>> much of a >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>> enough to >>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made >>> the NFB >>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>> true to >>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>> incapable of sustaining. >>> >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>> want it >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>> what I >>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the >>> verge of >>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will >>> only guide >>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be >>> your own >>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>> give you >>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you >>> always had to >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and >>> I will >>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>> Whether or >>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want >>> it to >>> exist. >>> >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>> I've >>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>> happier, >>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>> lesson >>> in financial management to you. >>> >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>> would never >>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>> provide >>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>> through >>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>> couldn't >>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>> excel at >>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the >>> greater our >>> strength. >>> >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I >>> be the >>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to >>> answer the >>> original question, my answer would be this: >>> >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>> consume >>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will >>> not, and >>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -- >>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>> >>> Visit my blog: >>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitaherrera1991%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Mar 31 00:50:15 2014 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 19:50:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Exhibitors and Scams References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com><7FA2DA53-EAF6-4EE9-8567-D8AB3C97B1F5@gmail.com><7B1DC58ABCF94124AD04966A8062F657@peted2AB964BD1> <504FAFB9-ECBC-4DE4-BC3F-B37BC900A88D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <735AC981D0084426876BAF43EB8FB09A@peted2AB964BD1> Good evening again everyone, If they're attempting to destroy our expensive adaptive technology and otherwise disrupt the show and make fools of themselves I believe we have grounds for ask that they be removed from the show. This has nothing to do with the NFB-ACB matter but disrespect for another exhibitor. Had such an incident happened at our national convention such a Klan would have been delt with post haste. If they left us along we would have respected their right to be there and everyone would have had a good time. As for the aledged scammer you need only listen to the news headlines to know why there is cause for dealing with such an individual before they could do their dirty work on other attendees. I hope that clears things up. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Principato" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > This is exactly the problem I have with the way some within the > organization play the political game. The feud with the ACB is nothing but > a distraction. It's a tool to give a cub set of members something to rally > behind, because nothing says "I'm a dedicated member of the in-group" like > sharing a common out-group rival. > > And why do you need a computer with internet connection for verification, > simply to be a respectful individual and hear a colleague's proposal? > Stating that you run a company is not by any means sufficient to scam > anyone. And you can always check when you get home if you're so inclined, > but to turn them away entirely and claim it is because your laptop isn't > handy makes me suspect another motive for turning away a member of the > out-group. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:47 PM, "Peter Donahue" >> wrote: >> >> >> Good afternoon everyone, >> >> I have a few thoughts on this thread. First no one likes anyone who runs >> from a fight. Health, work, and other issues can get in the way of >> serving in the organization but there are other ways to stay involved. >> People are only pushed to the side is they believe they are and don't >> find other ways to stay involved. They become lion prey rather than >> becoming or remaining lion chasers. >> >> The shunning we've seen is of those who lack blindness skills being >> offered the opportunity to learn them from those who just happen to be >> NFB members. My advice to such individuals is that of Judge Judy "Get >> over it!" If learning to use a computer, honing your Braille skills, >> becoming a better traveler will help you become more independent and >> create new career opportunities for God sakes except their offers of help >> regardless of whose camp they come from. >> >> As for this whole NFB VS ACB junk particularly when ACB members like to >> bring up stuff that happened 50 or 60 years ago they have been served >> notice from us that such conversations are off limits and they would do >> well to "Get over it" and that we're not interested in hearing it. On a >> few occasions we had several of them removed from our home due to the >> conversation getting out-of-control. And it didn't bother us to see them >> pay a $50 cab fare to get home to teach them that continuing to engage in >> this kind of non-productive garbage can become a very expensive >> proposition. >> >> On several occasions our chapter exhibited at a local resource fair for >> those with low vision. Both NFB and ACB had booths at this event. Some of >> us went by the ACB table to say hello. At no time did we attempt to harm >> their display or interfear with their activities in any way. They did not >> return the favor. One year several of their members tried to knock over >> our table which had a number of expensive notetakers on it. Our president >> at the time should have had the backbone to notify show officials and >> have them removed from the event but didn't. On another occasion one of >> these ACB folks tried to tell us he was the president of a new company we >> may be interested in learning about. Since we did not have a laptop with >> an Internet connection present to verify his story or not we were unable >> to do anything about it. Had we searched for the name of his company and >> found no reference to it online it's possible we could have had him >> kicked out for promoting a scam during the expo. By now you know that we >> have no patience with those who misrepresent themselves by atempting to >> promote a fraudulant company or engage in destructive behavior. The >> individual I referred to in this paragraph has served as the Alamo >> Council of the Blind's President. >> >> On the other hand if they wish to learn about various programs and >> services offered by the federation, learn about the BELL Program for >> example, our STEM Initiative, or if they would like an opportunity to >> ride in a car driven by a blind driver we're game for the conversation. >> Yes I know this is rather heavy-handed but there's some history behind >> why we've taken such a hard line with these people. It can be best >> summarized in a paraphraise of some words of a song by the late Stompin >> Tom Conners: >> "That there may never elsewhere be, >> Another Philadelphia tragedy, >> Another philadelphia tragety." >> >> The words above refer to an insident I and several other individuals >> were involved in during our 2001 Convention in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. >> Disagreements and philosophies among organizations of the blind helped >> lead up to this incident. Since taking such a hard stance against those >> who have nothing better to do than to run away from battles, sit on >> fences, etc there has never been another incident of that kind involving >> us. We had a close call in 2012 but heeded the warning signs and took >> action prior to that year's national convention to fend it off. Thanks to >> our alertness that national convention went without a hitch. >> >> Another thing that disturbs us is the ACB's attempts to undermind our >> programs and activities in some states. Did anyone tell them that this is >> America and they're free to establish programs and operate them as they >> see fit instead of attempting to scuttle the hard work of others?They >> attempted to quash NFB Newsline in a few states. If they didn't like the >> way the Newsline Program operates they're free to begin a similar program >> and operate it as they choose. Fortunately since we now host The Braille >> Forum I would hope it's got them thinking twice about that one. >> >> One thing that could help bring about greater unity in the blind >> community is if more agency directors had more backbone and laid out to >> all potential partners for a program they're considering the criteria >> these partners will need to satisfy for consideration instead of feeling >> like they need to be all things to all consumer groups of the blind. >> Again this is America and we're a free enterprise society. If someone >> wishes to be considered to assist with a program or to help fill a need >> they need to meet the criteria for consideration. For example if a host >> agency decides that immersion training is to be used in the operation of >> a particular program or service anyone wishing to partner with this >> agency will need to endorse immersion training or they will not be >> considered as a venture partner. Thus if ACB wants to be a partner in the >> operation of a program or service offered by a blindness agency that >> chooses to use immersion training they'll need to over hall their >> philosophy and adopt immersion training as a viable way to operate a >> program. If they're unwilling to do that they will be filtered and would >> do well not to complain that they were left out of consideration and >> would do well to refrain from trying to undermind the activities of such >> an agency because they were unwilling to adapt their approach and >> philosophy to meet changing conditions and needs of the blind. Again we >> have no patience with losers according to our standards! >> >> As for Joe's point about fundraising part of this one can be traced to >> the approach to career planning taken by many in the field including the >> NFB. We hear it every day about how unstable the job market has become >> yet we still tell people to go to school, get good grades, and you'll >> land that dream job when we should be taking it a step farther and urge >> blind individuals, parents, and educators of blind children to develop >> multiple income channels should something happen to your primary income >> source and so you will have the funds to support causes such as the >> activities of the NFB. We're currently working with the mother of a blind >> child in our area to encourage her to do this so she will be bettter able >> to meet her blind child's needs as she progresses through school and >> college and to have financial resources that will last her for her entire >> life instead of just 40 or 50 years of it if even that given the high >> unemployment rate we face. >> >> And let's not forget aboutthe the high cost of technology, and the >> refusal of the so-called blindness professionals to teach blind children >> and adults such valuable skills as Braille and cane travel to name a few. >> The NFB needs to urge blind persons and parents of blind children to >> develop multiple income sources so in the event that a school district is >> unwilling to teach a blind kid Braille no problem. They can hire someone >> to teach them privately and perhaps provide a job for another blind >> individual. If necessary they could home-school their blind child and >> give him/her an education far superior to that offered in many public >> schools. Likewise if a state agency refuses to fund a blind person to >> attend one of our centers since we urged them and their families to >> create ,multiple income streams they could pay for it themselves and to >> Hell with the rehab system. The more financial resources you have at your >> disposal that you can control the better you can provide for your blind >> child or fund the training you yourself wish to obtain. >> >> We attend regular information sessions related to one of our ventures. >> Each week we see many college students at these meetings. They're heeding >> the advice of those telling them not to put all of their eggs in one >> basket. These young folks most often referred to as Generation Y or Gen-Y >> for short understand the value of this advice and are creating multiple >> income streams for themselves should something happen to them or their >> career job. Individuals 30 years of age and under are considered to be a >> part of Gen-Y. Like their sighted Gen-Y counterparts blind individuals >> should be as intelligent. Consumer organizations of the blind need to >> become more agressive in this respect and urge blind persons and their >> families to do likewise. >> >> >> Mary and I have been around professional networking for years. In the >> late 1970s a blind individual and his wife became very successful in a >> well-known direct selling business achieving an extremely high level of >> success. Back then there were no smart phones, no direct delivery of the >> products in question to his home as there is now, no Internet portals in >> which one can transact business, yet this individual and his wife built >> an empire using this concept. The online resources I'm speaking of our >> accessible and usable by blind entrepreneurs. We have worked closely with >> the company in question to insure that this is so and they have greatly >> appreciated our assistance. Given his success one would think other blind >> individuals would have followed his lead in large numbers given the >> technology and services now available to those persuing careers in the >> direct selling industry. We find this state of affairs sad and shameful! >> This is something that can change in the years ahead. It's not too late. >> Anyone wanting more information about such opportunities is strongly >> advised to seek it from credible sources such as attending a meeting like >> the one mentioned above. Some of our NFB Lists have been used to spread >> information concerning particular companies that is inaccurate, false, >> and misleading. We're neither talking about your grandmother's business >> opportunity or NFB. >> >> >> >> If the NFB wishes to have increased financial support it needs to change >> the advice it gives to its members and others with respect to career >> options and advise blind consumers to create an income to last them a >> lifetime not just for 50 years of it only to end upon skid row when those >> years are over. It needs to give the kind of career advice that will >> allow its members and others to have the resources needed to support its >> programs and to allow blind individuals to maintain a deasent quality of >> life. Now I believe I'm spent. All the best everyone. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 01:51:23 2014 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 21:51:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007201cf4c83$b914f960$2b3eec20$@gmail.com> Dave, That was a good point, and very true. Put your money where your mouth is and whatnot. The only thing I would add is to find the role that's right for you. Not everyone has to be president of this or board member of that. I, for example, am too politically incorrect to be anyone's leader. I'm a better force behind the throne, assuming I belong in leadership at all, but it took me leaving the Federation to grow up and realize that. I've argued many times that our leaders should be allowed to take a sabbatical to get reacquainted with the reality they seek to improve, otherwise their efforts only thrive in a vacuum. Beth, Angelina makes a good point that society as a whole is still trying to wrap its mind around mental health. You would think blind people would be more sensitive, but then, we are blind, not perfect, and every bit as judgmental as the rest of the general public. Perhaps we would be well served to address the topic at local chapters or state conventions, maybe establish partnerships with organizations with expertise in that field in an effort to normalize what seems abnormal to the uninformed bystander. I think though the organization has always been careful about not straying too far from its own expertise, which is blindness. There are a myriad of conditions and circumstances that affect the membership beyond that, but as Pete pointed out, we can't be all things to all people at all times. Mind you, that is no excuse for us not to be more welcoming of all people. Common courtesy has never gone out of style, and I would hope the majority of members can see past these shallow factors. As to a spot in the elite circle, and this point is for Juanita as well, I suspect it's not everything it's cracked up to be. Remember the higher you rise, the harder you fall. I certainly never saw that whole bit with Peggy Elliott coming. Some of the best work you'll ever carry out will happen at the local level, where you have the most access to real people who really need your help. Jamie, We're on the same boat. I came into the fold late in 2001. Over the next several years I felt a noticeable change that felt nothing like the raw grassroots power I initially encountered. Still, change is possible. Arielle, Children and youth programs are vitally important. There is no greater priority than ensuring the future success of those coming up behind us, but the NFB is no redheaded stepchild. According to public records, the NFB has net assets of $26 million. My point is, I think the National Office could step up its efforts to rely more on strategic partners and less on the membership to generate the funds needed to keep those programs alive. Up to a point we have to realize you can't squeeze water from a stone, and while I am drawing a very simplistic picture of development and programming for the sake of this discussion, if we must raise more money, we have got to find a less pervasive means of communicating that to the membership that doesn't include a constant parade of opportunities you can increase your donation, sign up new donors, and win a prize! There is only so much public appeal capital we have to spend. To my knowledge, no one has been blatantly barred from joining the NFB. Yet, sometimes actions speak louder than words. Some people are treated in a condescending fashion for not using the longer white canes. Other people are ostracized for not having attended a center or, worse, for going to the wrong one. Sadly, some of our older generation still look down on those members who choose to get a guide dog. Now, to a degree people need to toughen up. There are bad apples in any organization, but it took more than several occurrences for me to notice a trend and not just a few isolated incidents. At some point we need to find a balance. And that brings me to perhaps the most important point that's come from this thread. Michael and Pete, I criticize the NFB because I want it to succeed. The mature among you will understand where I'm coming from. The two of you, however, are going about it the wrong way. In short, knock it off. ACB versus NFB is a stale argument. No one in our generation cares half as much about the division as the old curmudgeons in both organizations with nothing better to do. I'm hopeful that in our lifetime we will see at least one joint convention where we can test how much stronger we are as a united front on a few well-chosen issues. Anyone who believes the other camp is the real enemy ought to be booted from office, because they are a detriment to the collective good. Michael, I especially expect better of you as an ambassador to the ACB on an NFB forum. I don't think Kim Charlson would approve of the way you are portraying your group. Sometimes you need to be the more gallant gentleman. Don't let me down. Now, hopefully, a few of you will rise to your potential as leaders, gather what you're learning from this iscussion, and act on it as you assume office in the various chapters, affiliates and divisions. My homework to you this coming convention, should you care about anything a black sheep asks you to do, is to look up some people who are the real deal. This is not a definitive list. I won't pretend to have met all the excellent people in leadership, and some of the best leaders you'll find in the most remote chapters and not at the dais. The most lovable chapter president I ever met was Andy Virden in Minnesota, may he rest in peace. Still, some of the best mentor figures I had the privilege of meeting that are well-known to you and accessible were Joy and Allen Harris, Ron Gardner, James Gashel, Joanne Wilson, Gary Wunder, Pam Allen, and Curtis Chong. I've never met Steve Jacobs and David Andrews, though their guidance is generally in the right place. David gets on my nerves every now and then, but that's a good sign he's probably good people. And, believe it or not, Dr. Maurer is not half bad when he's not being an ass about how much smarter he is than the rest of us. One on one he can be a good guy to bounce ideas and set you straight when it's warranted. Are they always right? No. In fact I think sometimes they ought to be separated to generate better ideas. Will they always have the best advice? No, but remember my suggestion about dismissing the counsel that does not contribute to your upward mobility. On the whole, this is just a starting list of people you must meet, shake hands with, and milk them for all the wisdom they're worth. Our collective success depends on it. We're on the edge of transitioning to a new era, and I have high hopes for those of you taking the helm. Whatever your definition of the successful blind person, we need lots more of them. Me, I think I'll start my own organization. LOL Joe -- Twitter: @ScribblingJoe Visit my blog: http://joeorozco.com/blog -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB The other side of this argument is that unless you get involved and get political power yourself, then things won't change. The NFB has its strengths, and its weaknesses, and depending on the situation they are often the same thing. Dave At 01:57 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote: >Arielle, >That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >Joe, >I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high >school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective >is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see >past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues >of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy >to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the >line and pander to those with political power are treated with >hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our >local chapters. > >Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman > wrote: > > > > Hi Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the > > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are > > saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also > > felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival > > with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of > > banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken > > up with prize drawings and the like. > > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is > > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due > > to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income > > sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the > > alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. > > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused > > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly > > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not > > to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or > > judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is > > perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped > > as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members > > expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of > > hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance > > among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is > > unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person > > and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt > > completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would > > encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try > > again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find > > acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. > > > > Arielle > > > >> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: > >> Hello all. > >> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own > >> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size > >> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. > >> Thanks. > >> Mike > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: RJ Sandefur > >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM > >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > >> mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >> > >> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary > >> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a > >> mentoor. RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Joe" > >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >> > >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > >> > >> > >>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While > >>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad > >>> to be in the company > >>> > >>> of > >>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me > >>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my > >>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my > >>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's > >>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington > >>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. > >>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I > >>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with > >>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. > >>> > >>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other > >>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn > >>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it > >>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned > >>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money > >>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent > >>> issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, > >>> featured several articles just to the focus of generating more > >>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most > >>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from > >>> so-called > friends from whom > >>> > >>> I > >>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their > >>> NFB fundraising campaigns. > >>> > >>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot > >>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead > >>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness > >>> field, also national in scope. > >>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the > >>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on > >>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about > >>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. > >>> > >>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind > >>> professionals. > >>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I > >>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, > >>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or > >>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's > >>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of > >>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of > >>> > >>> a > >>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable > >>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have > >>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who > >>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and > >>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some > >>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of > >>> sustaining. > >>> > >>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I > >>> don't want > >>> > >>> it > >>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know > >>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on > >>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB > >>> banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about > >>> the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys > >>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will > >>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The > >>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had > >>> > >>> to > >>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, > >>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough > >>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a > >>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. > >>> Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks > >>> around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. > >>> > >>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know > >>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the > >>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to > >>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do > >>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management > >>> to you. > >>> > >>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I > >>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only > >>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation > >>> of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never > >>> taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like > >>> the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe > >>> it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it > >>> is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our > >>> strength. > >>> > >>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest > >>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame > >>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: > >>> > >>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to > >>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away > >>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. > >>> > >>> Joe _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 03:20:57 2014 From: ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com (ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 21:20:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: <007201cf4c83$b914f960$2b3eec20$@gmail.com> References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> <007201cf4c83$b914f960$2b3eec20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have observed even at the national level that the NFb is not supportive of minority groups other than blindness be it lgbt or other handicaps. If you aren't not able to be a "professional "and conduct yourself very well then basically you're not welcome. Also, I have observed that NFB people say that blind people can compete with the same time as their sighted peers with the correct tools but, from what I have found that is not true it still takes people longer to do the same things. I have tried to compete and be at the same level as the NFB philosophy but in many ways it is not realistic. Lora Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:51 PM, "Joe" wrote: > > Dave, > > That was a good point, and very true. Put your money where your mouth is and > whatnot. The only thing I would add is to find the role that's right for > you. Not everyone has to be president of this or board member of that. I, > for example, am too politically incorrect to be anyone's leader. I'm a > better force behind the throne, assuming I belong in leadership at all, but > it took me leaving the Federation to grow up and realize that. I've argued > many times that our leaders should be allowed to take a sabbatical to get > reacquainted with the reality they seek to improve, otherwise their efforts > only thrive in a vacuum. > > Beth, > > Angelina makes a good point that society as a whole is still trying to wrap > its mind around mental health. You would think blind people would be more > sensitive, but then, we are blind, not perfect, and every bit as judgmental > as the rest of the general public. Perhaps we would be well served to > address the topic at local chapters or state conventions, maybe establish > partnerships with organizations with expertise in that field in an effort to > normalize what seems abnormal to the uninformed bystander. I think though > the organization has always been careful about not straying too far from its > own expertise, which is blindness. There are a myriad of conditions and > circumstances that affect the membership beyond that, but as Pete pointed > out, we can't be all things to all people at all times. Mind you, that is no > excuse for us not to be more welcoming of all people. Common courtesy has > never gone out of style, and I would hope the majority of members can see > past these shallow factors. > > As to a spot in the elite circle, and this point is for Juanita as well, I > suspect it's not everything it's cracked up to be. Remember the higher you > rise, the harder you fall. I certainly never saw that whole bit with Peggy > Elliott coming. Some of the best work you'll ever carry out will happen at > the local level, where you have the most access to real people who really > need your help. > > Jamie, > > We're on the same boat. I came into the fold late in 2001. Over the next > several years I felt a noticeable change that felt nothing like the raw > grassroots power I initially encountered. Still, change is possible. > > Arielle, > > Children and youth programs are vitally important. There is no greater > priority than ensuring the future success of those coming up behind us, but > the NFB is no redheaded stepchild. According to public records, the NFB has > net assets of $26 million. My point is, I think the National Office could > step up its efforts to rely more on strategic partners and less on the > membership to generate the funds needed to keep those programs alive. Up to > a point we have to realize you can't squeeze water from a stone, and while I > am drawing a very simplistic picture of development and programming for the > sake of this discussion, if we must raise more money, we have got to find a > less pervasive means of communicating that to the membership that doesn't > include a constant parade of opportunities you can increase your donation, > sign up new donors, and win a prize! There is only so much public appeal > capital we have to spend. > > To my knowledge, no one has been blatantly barred from joining the NFB. Yet, > sometimes actions speak louder than words. Some people are treated in a > condescending fashion for not using the longer white canes. Other people are > ostracized for not having attended a center or, worse, for going to the > wrong one. Sadly, some of our older generation still look down on those > members who choose to get a guide dog. Now, to a degree people need to > toughen up. There are bad apples in any organization, but it took more than > several occurrences for me to notice a trend and not just a few isolated > incidents. At some point we need to find a balance. > > And that brings me to perhaps the most important point that's come from this > thread. > > Michael and Pete, > > I criticize the NFB because I want it to succeed. The mature among you will > understand where I'm coming from. The two of you, however, are going about > it the wrong way. > > In short, knock it off. ACB versus NFB is a stale argument. No one in our > generation cares half as much about the division as the old curmudgeons in > both organizations with nothing better to do. I'm hopeful that in our > lifetime we will see at least one joint convention where we can test how > much stronger we are as a united front on a few well-chosen issues. Anyone > who believes the other camp is the real enemy ought to be booted from > office, because they are a detriment to the collective good. > > Michael, I especially expect better of you as an ambassador to the ACB on an > NFB forum. I don't think Kim Charlson would approve of the way you are > portraying your group. Sometimes you need to be the more gallant gentleman. > Don't let me down. > > Now, hopefully, a few of you will rise to your potential as leaders, gather > what you're learning from this iscussion, and act on it as you assume office > in the various chapters, affiliates and divisions. My homework to you this > coming convention, should you care about anything a black sheep asks you to > do, is to look up some people who are the real deal. This is not a > definitive list. I won't pretend to have met all the excellent people in > leadership, and some of the best leaders you'll find in the most remote > chapters and not at the dais. The most lovable chapter president I ever met > was Andy Virden in Minnesota, may he rest in peace. Still, some of the best > mentor figures I had the privilege of meeting that are well-known to you and > accessible were Joy and Allen Harris, Ron Gardner, James Gashel, Joanne > Wilson, Gary Wunder, Pam Allen, and Curtis Chong. I've never met Steve > Jacobs and David Andrews, though their guidance is generally in the right > place. David gets on my nerves every now and then, but that's a good sign > he's probably good people. And, believe it or not, Dr. Maurer is not half > bad when he's not being an ass about how much smarter he is than the rest of > us. One on one he can be a good guy to bounce ideas and set you straight > when it's warranted. Are they always right? No. In fact I think sometimes > they ought to be separated to generate better ideas. Will they always have > the best advice? No, but remember my suggestion about dismissing the counsel > that does not contribute to your upward mobility. On the whole, this is just > a starting list of people you must meet, shake hands with, and milk them for > all the wisdom they're worth. Our collective success depends on it. We're on > the edge of transitioning to a new era, and I have high hopes for those of > you taking the helm. Whatever your definition of the successful blind > person, we need lots more of them. > > Me, I think I'll start my own organization. LOL > > Joe > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Andrews > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB > > The other side of this argument is that unless you get involved and get > political power yourself, then things won't change. The NFB has its > strengths, and its weaknesses, and depending on the situation they are often > the same thing. > > Dave > > At 01:57 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote: >> Arielle, >> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >> >> Joe, >> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >> my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >> organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >> organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high >> school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective >> is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see >> past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues >> of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy >> to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the >> line and pander to those with political power are treated with >> hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our >> local chapters. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival >>> with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of >>> banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken >>> up with prize drawings and the like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person >>> and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt >>> completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would >>> encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try >>> again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find >>> acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be > sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>> Hello all. >>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>> Thanks. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>> mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>> mentoor. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joe" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>> to be in the company >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent >>>>> issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, >>>>> featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >>>>> so-called >> friends from whom >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>> >>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>>> field, also national in scope. >>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>> >>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>> professionals. >>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>> sustaining. >>>>> >>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>> don't want >>>>> >>>>> it >>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>>> banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about >>>>> the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>>> Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks >>>>> around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. >>>>> >>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management >>>>> to you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >>>>> of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >>>>> taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like >>>>> the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe >>>>> it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it >>>>> is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>>> strength. >>>>> >>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>> >>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>> >>>>> Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com From anjelinac at att.net Mon Mar 31 05:27:12 2014 From: anjelinac at att.net (Anjelina) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 01:27:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Question About JAWS and Ms Access In-Reply-To: <6502462421594D0DA20720F81DF8653F@OwnerPC> References: <6502462421594D0DA20720F81DF8653F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <2674C105-C4FC-4A95-A467-77AAB00E923A@att.net> Hi Cindy and Ashley, I also have to use MS Access for a project and am plannng to give FS a call today. If I learn of any tips I will pass them along. -Anjelina Sent from my iPad > On Mar 30, 2014, at 6:45 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > I think Access became mostly inaccessible when they came out with 2010. > Sorry to say this. I'm afraid there's no solution > > -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Bennett > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:17 PM > To: National Asociation of Blind Students > Cc: Jobs for the Blind > Subject: [nabs-l] Question About JAWS and Ms Access > > Hi all, > > I have to use Access for my job and I am currently having trouble with this. > > We have a database of study participants, and there is a table > consisting of several columns with information about each participant, > and each row is dedicated to one participant. I am supposed to be able > to click on the participant's id number which is contained in one of > the columns of the table to bring up their record to view and update > their contact information. I have tried everything I can think of, > pressing enter, space, right clicking and looking through the options, > using my JAWS cursor, etc., and I cannot bring up a participant's > record. Does anyone have any advice about activating items in tables > in Access? I have looked through the JAWS Access and table help and > only got keystrokes regarding reading information in tables, and > Google searches haven't come up with anything either. > > Thanks, > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac%40att.net From philso1003 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 09:45:58 2014 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Phil) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 05:45:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: <53384425.2050002@gtwebdesign.us> References: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> <53384425.2050002@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: Hi Greg, When you say the phone will be loaded with Verizon software, or T-Mobiel for that matter, would that make the phone less accessible? Or just additional apps that I can simply ignore? Thanks. Phil On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: > Hello, > The only way to get a play edition phone is by ordering it from the > Google Play store unfortunately. If you get the one Verizon sells it > will still be a really good phone but it will not get updates as fast. > Also the non play edition will be loaded with all Verizon's software. > > Greg Wocher > > Follow me on Twitter @GWocher > > On 3/30/2014 8:48 AM, Phil wrote: >> Hi Greg, >> >> How does one get a Google Play edition phone? Say if I go to Verizon >> store and get a Moto X, do I ask for Google Play edition? >> >> Thanks. >> Phil >> >> >> On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >>> Hello, >>> I would suggest either: >>> 1. Google Nexus 5 >>> 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition >>> 3. Motorola Moto G- Google Play edition. >>> All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one of >>> these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They are >>> all at the >>> $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store editions >>> because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on them. >>> >>> Greg Wocher >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >>> >>> On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's >>>> and con's? >>>> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >>>> and popular Android smartphones. >>>> Looking forward to hearing your views. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > From philso1003 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 10:08:37 2014 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Phil) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 06:08:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind people In-Reply-To: <8C7BADFFE02542E8B1B25FBEE4241DF6@OwnerPC> References: <012901cf4ba8$2dbd18b0$89374a10$@gmail.com> <8C7BADFFE02542E8B1B25FBEE4241DF6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi all, wow thanks for your responses and diverse viewpoints. This is great discussion / debate. And certainly give me lots to think about. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. Everyone's view is at least backed by one example, namely your experience. And this is why I kept the question open to solicit diverse opinions. And if I must draw a common theme across all your views, it is this: A key characteristic of blind people who succeed at what they do is the ability to continually assess and learn about the environments, including social environments, physical environments, tech environments, and of course career environments, etc. in order to pick a suitable environment and pick the right thing to do that will maximize one's chance of success, and then do it by leveraging all the tools and people you can and wish to use, and use it in the most efficient way, and give your 100%. And to say it in two words: be strategic. I think that encompasses the jist of what everyone says. something like that. Phil On 3/30/14, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Joe, > I agree and you said what I could not figure out how to say. I think the > huge barriers such as the technology, transportation, and unemployment we > have are depictitions of reality. We cannot simply drive to an entry level > job such as receptionist and do it well; for one thing we cannot drive, for > > another, we could not do most reception jobs I'm finding due to the > paperwork and checking IDS. > We can sure be successful in spite of the barriers and the world built for > the sighted, but it is no nuisance. > > That said, I believe that we should be able to do what we want to do and not > > limit ourselves on perceived perceptions. > We can do much more than the sighted believe we can, and we just have to > muster the courage to get out there and participate amongst the sighted as > equals. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:39 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successfulblind > > people > > Arielle, > > Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, and discrimination are not merely > lack of opportunities. They are depictions of reality over which we do not > always have control. Perhaps it could be said that blindness, could, be a > non-issue if the stars aligned and these inconveniences did not slow down > our forward momentum, but few are the blind people who can move through > life > without experiencing frustration with the delays and detours at random > points along the way. In fact, I would submit that those few for whom > blindness is truly a non-issue are the ones working at the heights of the > blindness movement where it is easy to drum up platitudes of opportunity > and > analogies of blindness to a nuisance. Whatever will motivate you to go out > and raise money for the cause, right? For the rest of us living outside of > that leadership bubble, life's tough. Can it be done? Most assuredly, and I > will take a motivational whip to anyone's arse who claims otherwise, but > there's success according to the over-simplistic way Baltimore preaches and > then there's success according to the real-world way the rest of us earn > it. > > -- > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe > > Visit my blog: > http://joeorozco.com/blog > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle > Silverman > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 2:33 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of > successfulblind > people > > Joe, I think all the examples you cite are instances of lack of > opportunity. > Inaccessible technology, lack of transit, discrimination; these are all > denials of opportunity. Everyone admits that blindness makes a lack of > opportunity more of a barrier. But when there is opportunity--when things > are accessible, there are ways to get around besides driving a car, > etc.--blindness becomes a non-issue. > Arielle > > On 3/29/14, Kirt wrote: >> Funny you mentioned that... because it's actually one of my favorite >> speeches and, in my opinion, one of the best explanations of The way I >> interpret and apply Federation philosophy. If you recall, his main >> point in that speech was that real independence means getting things >> done in the most efficient way possible, Without placing ridiculously >> high burdens on other people. He went out of his way to repeatedly >> emphasize that real independence, As he saw it, does indeed mean you >> accept assistance if you want it, if it will really be helpful, and as >> long as it is on your terms and not somebody else's. That speech is >> easily one of my favorites-I think it's fair to say there are some people > in the federation who don't quite live by it. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 10:10 AM, "justin williams" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Revisit the Dr. Jernican speech on interdependence. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 12:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>> successfulblind people >>> >>> Absolutely nothing and, if you think that's what the federation >>> teaches, you've been listening to the wrong people. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Good morning, everyone, >>>> >>>> So, going back to how Robin holds up interdependence as a means of >>>> getting >>> assistance for such things as not quite accessable forms, what's >>> wrong with that? >>>> for today, Car >>>> >>>> At 02:23 PM 3/28/2014, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Hi Joe, >>>>> very well said. I, too, cannot believe blindness is a nuisance >>>>> anymore. >>> Not with the barriers I face because the world is not conducive to >>> nonvisual access, especially appliances and technology. Do I think >>> about blindness a lot? No, its part of me; actually I have low >>> vision. >>>>> I go about my business like making breakfast, listening to the news >>>>> and >>> weather via radio and watching tv shows that are rather auditory a >>> lot and feel happy. I don't think about that I'm doing things >>> differently because of my vision or feel down over it. But, it does >>> play a role in my ability to accomplish visual tasks. For instance >>> filling out job applications; its like half are inaccessible; I came >>> across at least three which say errors, fix the boxes by red stars, >>> and I do not know what the errors are. or others I fill out are not >>> accepted telling me that I missed fields, and I have no idea which >>> fields I missed. I need some eyes to assist me. >>>>> Then there is the transit issue; with mobility being a challenge, I >>> struggle with that, and hate the inconvenience of paratransit. >>>>> Then you have electronics which we cannot see. So, no its not a >>>>> nuisance, and we have not made enough progress to render blindness >>> insignificant in doing what we want to do. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I agree with you on success. Its about living your >>>>> passions. Its >>> also, I believe, about making goals, and doing them to change the world. >>> Go >>> out and achieve big things for you. >>>>> >>>>> Also, yeah, success is you. Having a federal job as you do in that >>>>> field, >>> is a rather successful thing you accomplished. >>>>> You are smart. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:12 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of >>>>> successfulblind people >>>>> >>>>> Phil, >>>>> >>>>> A successful blind person looks, acts, and communicates like me. >>>>> Isn't that obvious? >>>>> >>>>> But, kidding aside, I want to give you a different perspective from >>>>> the people whining about how it is unfair to make blindness a >>>>> factor in >>> success. >>>>> Apparently some of us believe that success is success and blindness >>>>> is irrelevant, but to deny that blindness is a factor is to deny >>>>> the reality that more than 70% of our blind peers are unemployed. >>>>> To a degree, overcoming blindness is success onto itself, and if >>>>> you can't succeed there, a person's likelihood of succeeding >>>>> anywhere else is slim. Is the person willing to advocate for >>>>> themselves? Are they willing to work twice as hard to achieve tasks >>>>> their sighted peers can complete sometimes in half the time? Are >>>>> they honest enough with themselves to tell if they possess >>>>> sufficient daily living, technology, and communication skills to >>>>> succeed at life, let alone the workplace? It may be true that our >>>>> sighted peers may need to ponder some of these points, but not with >>>>> the same necessity or to the same depth as the blind person who has >>>>> to be extra competitive to >>> beat sighted applicants. >>>>> >>>>> At some point over the past several years I stopped subscribing to >>>>> the NFB notion that blindness can be reduced to the level of a >>>>> nuisance. Were that true, I believe we would have seen better >>>>> progress where blind people are concerned. Blindness presents >>>>> certain unique challenges a person must regularly overcome to >>>>> excel. Yes, building up confidence makes the process easier, but I >>>>> don't know that we have reached a point in our evolution of >>>>> independence that blindness is irrelevant, and certainly not so >>>>> minimal as to be labeled a >>> minor inconvenience. >>>>> >>>>> Now, as to success across the board, blind or sighted, I think >>>>> pursuing your own passions is a key ingredient. I wrote a blog post >>>>> on the subject, which you can read at the link below: >>>>> >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog_are_you_living_someone_elses_dream >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Phil >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:29 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Personal characteristics and traits of successful >>>>> blind people >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I'm working on a research paper, and would like to hear what you >>>>> think. >>>>> Obviously there are external factors such as accessibility >>>>> barriers, social and attitudinal barriers and so on that affect a >>>>> blind person's likelihood of success in life. But if we focus on >>>>> personal characteristics for a moment, what do you think are some >>>>> personal characteristics that can help a blind person succeed, or >>>>> ask in a different way, what characteristics and behavior traits do >>>>> successful blind people around you exhibit? And what makes you cite > these traits? >>>>> For example, some have rightly pointed out that a sense of >>>>> curiosity and exploration is key, both curiosity to explore one's >>>>> physical surrounding, intellectual curiosity to explore different >>>>> subjects and career possibilities, and so on. Others have also >>>>> pointed out having the courage to be different is important as a blind > person. >>>>> What else do you think are important characteristics or behavior > traits? >>>>> Hope to hear lots of diverse views on this. >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40e >>>>> ar >>>>> thlink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comc >>>>> as >>>>> t.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0g >>>> mail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >>> gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. >> com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > From icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us Mon Mar 31 10:44:43 2014 From: icewolf2011 at gtwebdesign.us (Greg Wocher) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 06:44:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: References: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> <53384425.2050002@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: <5339471B.5020703@gtwebdesign.us> Hello, It will just be software you can ignore. The software the carriers usually put on there just takes up a lot of storage space. For example I use a Samsung Galaxy S4 I bought thru AT&T and the carrier software and Samsungs took up nearly 8gig of the 16gig on board storage. Greg Wocher Follow me on Twitter @GWocher On 3/31/2014 5:45 AM, Phil wrote: > Hi Greg, > When you say the phone will be loaded with Verizon software, or > T-Mobiel for that matter, would that make the phone less accessible? > Or just additional apps that I can simply ignore? > Thanks. > Phil > > On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >> Hello, >> The only way to get a play edition phone is by ordering it from the >> Google Play store unfortunately. If you get the one Verizon sells it >> will still be a really good phone but it will not get updates as fast. >> Also the non play edition will be loaded with all Verizon's software. >> >> Greg Wocher >> >> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >> >> On 3/30/2014 8:48 AM, Phil wrote: >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> How does one get a Google Play edition phone? Say if I go to Verizon >>> store and get a Moto X, do I ask for Google Play edition? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> I would suggest either: >>>> 1. Google Nexus 5 >>>> 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition >>>> 3. Motorola Moto G- Google Play edition. >>>> All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one of >>>> these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They are >>>> all at the >>>> $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store editions >>>> because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on them. >>>> >>>> Greg Wocher >>>> >>>> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >>>> >>>> On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? Pro's >>>>> and con's? >>>>> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >>>>> and popular Android smartphones. >>>>> Looking forward to hearing your views. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us > From philso1003 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 10:54:22 2014 From: philso1003 at gmail.com (Phil) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 06:54:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Top 3 accessible Android smartphones In-Reply-To: <5339471B.5020703@gtwebdesign.us> References: <5337F5F4.5090309@gtwebdesign.us> <53384425.2050002@gtwebdesign.us> <5339471B.5020703@gtwebdesign.us> Message-ID: oh man! Are those additional software deletable? On 3/31/14, Greg Wocher wrote: > Hello, > It will just be software you can ignore. The software the carriers > usually put on there just takes up a lot of storage space. For example > I use a Samsung Galaxy S4 I bought thru AT&T and the carrier software > and Samsungs took up nearly 8gig of the 16gig on board storage. > > Greg Wocher > > Follow me on Twitter @GWocher > > On 3/31/2014 5:45 AM, Phil wrote: >> Hi Greg, >> When you say the phone will be loaded with Verizon software, or >> T-Mobiel for that matter, would that make the phone less accessible? >> Or just additional apps that I can simply ignore? >> Thanks. >> Phil >> >> On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >>> Hello, >>> The only way to get a play edition phone is by ordering it from the >>> Google Play store unfortunately. If you get the one Verizon sells it >>> will still be a really good phone but it will not get updates as fast. >>> Also the non play edition will be loaded with all Verizon's software. >>> >>> Greg Wocher >>> >>> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >>> >>> On 3/30/2014 8:48 AM, Phil wrote: >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>> How does one get a Google Play edition phone? Say if I go to Verizon >>>> store and get a Moto X, do I ask for Google Play edition? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/30/14, Greg Wocher wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> I would suggest either: >>>>> 1. Google Nexus 5 >>>>> 2. Motorola Moto X- google play edition >>>>> 3. Motorola Moto G- Google Play edition. >>>>> All three of these are good Android phones. I would recommend one of >>>>> these three because they will get updates very quickly. Also They are >>>>> all at the >>>>> $400 or less for unlocked phones. I recommend the play store editions >>>>> because they don't have all the carrier crap software installed on >>>>> them. >>>>> >>>>> Greg Wocher >>>>> >>>>> Follow me on Twitter @GWocher >>>>> >>>>> On 3/29/2014 7:21 PM, Phil wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Which Android smartphones would you say are the most accessible? >>>>>> Pro's >>>>>> and con's? >>>>>> Maybe from this discussion we can then come up with top 3 accessible >>>>>> and popular Android smartphones. >>>>>> Looking forward to hearing your views. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Phil >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/icewolf2011%40gtwebdesign.us >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/philso1003%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Mon Mar 31 15:58:45 2014 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:58:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] has anyone attended these colleges In-Reply-To: <5338339b.a14d320a.5e82.ffffb356@mx.google.com> References: <5338339b.a14d320a.5e82.ffffb356@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Kelsey I believe you said your from ohio. Have you considered looking into joining the ohio association of blind students? They be able to help with connecting you you with schools. Also, have you considered Miami university? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 30, 2014, at 11:08 AM, Kelsey Nicolay wrote: > > Hello, > I posted this before, but here it is again. I'm looking to go > back to school for education in a few years once I've worked a > while and can afford it, but I'm starting to look at schools. > I've been in contact with someone who went to Kent, but I am > wondering if anyone has or know someone who has gone to the > following other schools: Bowling Green State University, Slippery > Rock University, Eastern Michigan University, and Edinboro > University of Pennsylvania. All of these schools have good > education programs from what I've read and heard from others. I > have been told to stay away from Youngstown State though because > it's in a very bad area. I have therefore eliminated Youngstown > from my list. Has anyone ever gone to or know someone who has > gone to the above schools? As I mentioned, I've been in contact > with a Kent graduate, so I'm looking for input on the other > schools I mentioned. If you or someone you know has gone to the > above mentioned schools, please feel free to write me offlist to > share your experiences or put me in contact with someone. > Slippery Rock and Edinboro are in Pennsylvania and Bowling Green > is in Ohio, not Kentucky. There is a bowling green kentucky, so > I wanted to make sure which state I meant. Eastern Michigan is > located in Ypsilanti. > Thanks in advance, > Kelsey Nicolay > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 17:03:25 2014 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:03:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <009501cf4c34$bbb363e0$331a2ba0$@gmail.com> <465347063DD8401AB5E1024C7629FE92@MikePC> <342F854E-DB9A-4D39-A418-D63112931156@gmail.com> <007201cf4c83$b914f960$2b3eec20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Everyone: I have had many differing feelings and thoughts as I have followed this discussion. I have a little different of a perspective regarding the NFB not being welcoming of others who have multiple disabilities. I joined the NFB in 2010 and was welcomed with open arms in my state. In fact, many in my state had been trying to get me to join for a long time but I refused because I had many misperceptions about the NFB. In January of 2013, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I had a wonderful experience, and would recomend training at an NFB center to anyone who is blind. In addition to being totally blind, I have severe hearing loss. My hearing loss particularly affects my travel. I am not a vanilla blind person, and yet I have felt welcome in the organization. I love attending national conventions, and have made a lot of friends. Last year, I was recomended by my state President and was invited to attend an invitation only leadership seminar at the National center held by NABS. At national convention last summer, I met a prominent leader in the Nebraska affiliate. She told me about a story about how she got to meet with Kenneth Jernigan once. I don't exactly remember all the details of the story, but this lady told me she went to meet Dr. Jernigan and she was complaining about this and that and she kept on complaining. After she was finished, Dr. Jernigan looked at her and said "So what are you going to do about it?" This story really stuck with me. I think it's easy for those of us who aren't in the leadership circle to sometimes feel unwelcomed and get burned out or become so frustrated we quit. But, if we want the organization to change, we can't quit. We can't give up. Not everyone is just the vanilla blind. We can't give up. If you don't feel welcome, or you don't feel involved enough, take steps to change that. Reach out to the leaders at the state and chapter level. If you have one in your area, get involved in your local chapter. Attend your state's board meetings even if you are not on the board. We can't expect anything to change if we aren't willing to try to fight to make those changes happen. If we just give up and quit the organization, nothing will change. As for ACB, I do not like ACB at all. I have listened to a few of their conventions/conferences online, and I feel they run their organization very unprofessionally. I feel the NFB has many more programs and the three NFB training centers to help blind people be successful. I feel the ACB just complains all the time, but takes no action. I have witnessed this happening. I feel like in the NFB we really take action and stand up and fight whereas the ACB doesn't really do much and just complains and does not take much action. I have never heard of anyone being blatantly turned away from joining the NFB. If this happens, the person should notify the National office right away. It would be a huge shame if something like that happened. Are there areas where the organization could change or become better? Certainly. The NFB is not perfect by any means. I also would like to see more blind people with multiple disabilities have more prominent leadership roles. I wish more blind people with multiple disabilities joined in the organization. But, if those of us who are just average or not exactly the vanilla blind want our voices to be heard, we can't give up and we have to keep fighting for change. The more of us there are the bigger our voices can be!! Please don't give up!! I hope my post does not offend anyone. I am just really passionate about this organization, and as someone who does have multiple disabilities I hate to see people feeling unwelcome/like they are falling through the cracks. I believe every blind person could benefit from the organization, and everyone should be able to have the same opportunities as those who are "vanilla blind" if they so choose. Thanks, Kerri On 3/30/14, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: > I have observed even at the national level that the NFb is not supportive of > minority groups other than blindness be it lgbt or other handicaps. If you > aren't not able to be a "professional "and conduct yourself very well then > basically you're not welcome. > > Also, I have observed that NFB people say that blind people can compete with > the same time as their sighted peers with the correct tools but, from what I > have found that is not true it still takes people longer to do the same > things. > > I have tried to compete and be at the same level as the NFB philosophy but > in many ways it is not realistic. > > > Lora > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:51 PM, "Joe" wrote: >> >> Dave, >> >> That was a good point, and very true. Put your money where your mouth is >> and >> whatnot. The only thing I would add is to find the role that's right for >> you. Not everyone has to be president of this or board member of that. I, >> for example, am too politically incorrect to be anyone's leader. I'm a >> better force behind the throne, assuming I belong in leadership at all, >> but >> it took me leaving the Federation to grow up and realize that. I've >> argued >> many times that our leaders should be allowed to take a sabbatical to get >> reacquainted with the reality they seek to improve, otherwise their >> efforts >> only thrive in a vacuum. >> >> Beth, >> >> Angelina makes a good point that society as a whole is still trying to >> wrap >> its mind around mental health. You would think blind people would be more >> sensitive, but then, we are blind, not perfect, and every bit as >> judgmental >> as the rest of the general public. Perhaps we would be well served to >> address the topic at local chapters or state conventions, maybe establish >> partnerships with organizations with expertise in that field in an effort >> to >> normalize what seems abnormal to the uninformed bystander. I think though >> the organization has always been careful about not straying too far from >> its >> own expertise, which is blindness. There are a myriad of conditions and >> circumstances that affect the membership beyond that, but as Pete pointed >> out, we can't be all things to all people at all times. Mind you, that is >> no >> excuse for us not to be more welcoming of all people. Common courtesy has >> never gone out of style, and I would hope the majority of members can see >> past these shallow factors. >> >> As to a spot in the elite circle, and this point is for Juanita as well, >> I >> suspect it's not everything it's cracked up to be. Remember the higher >> you >> rise, the harder you fall. I certainly never saw that whole bit with >> Peggy >> Elliott coming. Some of the best work you'll ever carry out will happen >> at >> the local level, where you have the most access to real people who really >> need your help. >> >> Jamie, >> >> We're on the same boat. I came into the fold late in 2001. Over the next >> several years I felt a noticeable change that felt nothing like the raw >> grassroots power I initially encountered. Still, change is possible. >> >> Arielle, >> >> Children and youth programs are vitally important. There is no greater >> priority than ensuring the future success of those coming up behind us, >> but >> the NFB is no redheaded stepchild. According to public records, the NFB >> has >> net assets of $26 million. My point is, I think the National Office could >> step up its efforts to rely more on strategic partners and less on the >> membership to generate the funds needed to keep those programs alive. Up >> to >> a point we have to realize you can't squeeze water from a stone, and while >> I >> am drawing a very simplistic picture of development and programming for >> the >> sake of this discussion, if we must raise more money, we have got to find >> a >> less pervasive means of communicating that to the membership that doesn't >> include a constant parade of opportunities you can increase your >> donation, >> sign up new donors, and win a prize! There is only so much public appeal >> capital we have to spend. >> >> To my knowledge, no one has been blatantly barred from joining the NFB. >> Yet, >> sometimes actions speak louder than words. Some people are treated in a >> condescending fashion for not using the longer white canes. Other people >> are >> ostracized for not having attended a center or, worse, for going to the >> wrong one. Sadly, some of our older generation still look down on those >> members who choose to get a guide dog. Now, to a degree people need to >> toughen up. There are bad apples in any organization, but it took more >> than >> several occurrences for me to notice a trend and not just a few isolated >> incidents. At some point we need to find a balance. >> >> And that brings me to perhaps the most important point that's come from >> this >> thread. >> >> Michael and Pete, >> >> I criticize the NFB because I want it to succeed. The mature among you >> will >> understand where I'm coming from. The two of you, however, are going >> about >> it the wrong way. >> >> In short, knock it off. ACB versus NFB is a stale argument. No one in our >> generation cares half as much about the division as the old curmudgeons >> in >> both organizations with nothing better to do. I'm hopeful that in our >> lifetime we will see at least one joint convention where we can test how >> much stronger we are as a united front on a few well-chosen issues. >> Anyone >> who believes the other camp is the real enemy ought to be booted from >> office, because they are a detriment to the collective good. >> >> Michael, I especially expect better of you as an ambassador to the ACB on >> an >> NFB forum. I don't think Kim Charlson would approve of the way you are >> portraying your group. Sometimes you need to be the more gallant >> gentleman. >> Don't let me down. >> >> Now, hopefully, a few of you will rise to your potential as leaders, >> gather >> what you're learning from this iscussion, and act on it as you assume >> office >> in the various chapters, affiliates and divisions. My homework to you >> this >> coming convention, should you care about anything a black sheep asks you >> to >> do, is to look up some people who are the real deal. This is not a >> definitive list. I won't pretend to have met all the excellent people in >> leadership, and some of the best leaders you'll find in the most remote >> chapters and not at the dais. The most lovable chapter president I ever >> met >> was Andy Virden in Minnesota, may he rest in peace. Still, some of the >> best >> mentor figures I had the privilege of meeting that are well-known to you >> and >> accessible were Joy and Allen Harris, Ron Gardner, James Gashel, Joanne >> Wilson, Gary Wunder, Pam Allen, and Curtis Chong. I've never met Steve >> Jacobs and David Andrews, though their guidance is generally in the right >> place. David gets on my nerves every now and then, but that's a good sign >> he's probably good people. And, believe it or not, Dr. Maurer is not half >> bad when he's not being an ass about how much smarter he is than the rest >> of >> us. One on one he can be a good guy to bounce ideas and set you straight >> when it's warranted. Are they always right? No. In fact I think sometimes >> they ought to be separated to generate better ideas. Will they always >> have >> the best advice? No, but remember my suggestion about dismissing the >> counsel >> that does not contribute to your upward mobility. On the whole, this is >> just >> a starting list of people you must meet, shake hands with, and milk them >> for >> all the wisdom they're worth. Our collective success depends on it. We're >> on >> the edge of transitioning to a new era, and I have high hopes for those >> of >> you taking the helm. Whatever your definition of the successful blind >> person, we need lots more of them. >> >> Me, I think I'll start my own organization. LOL >> >> Joe >> >> -- >> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >> >> Visit my blog: >> http://joeorozco.com/blog >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David >> Andrews >> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >> >> The other side of this argument is that unless you get involved and get >> political power yourself, then things won't change. The NFB has its >> strengths, and its weaknesses, and depending on the situation they are >> often >> the same thing. >> >> Dave >> >> At 01:57 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> >>> Joe, >>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring >>> my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the >>> organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the >>> organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high >>> school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective >>> is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see >>> past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues >>> of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy >>> to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the >>> line and pander to those with political power are treated with >>> hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our >>> local chapters. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are >>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also >>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a carnival >>>> with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of >>>> banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken >>>> up with prize drawings and the like. >>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due >>>> to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the >>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not >>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or >>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is >>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped >>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members >>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of >>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of acceptance >>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is >>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind person >>>> and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I still felt >>>> completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so lucky. I would >>>> encourage prospective members who have a negative experience to try >>>> again in a different chapter or division and perhaps they will find >>>> acceptance there. But at the same time, this is something we need to be >> sensitive to in the organization. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>> life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size >>>>> fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students >>>>> mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a >>>>> mentoor. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While >>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad >>>>>> to be in the company >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me >>>>>> as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my >>>>>> summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my >>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's >>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington >>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. >>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I >>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other >>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn >>>>>> it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it >>>>>> rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned >>>>>> into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money >>>>>> for this fund or that effort. I found it even sadder that a recent >>>>>> issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of inspiration, >>>>>> featured several articles just to the focus of generating more >>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>> frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from >>>>>> so-called >>> friends from whom >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their >>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot >>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead >>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness >>>>>> field, also national in scope. >>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the >>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on >>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about >>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>> professionals. >>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I >>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, >>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or >>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's >>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste of >>>>>> leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have >>>>>> really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who >>>>>> could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and >>>>>> most important, remaining true to the cause and not some >>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of >>>>>> sustaining. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I >>>>>> don't want >>>>>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know >>>>>> what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on >>>>>> the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB >>>>>> banner will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about >>>>>> the organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys >>>>>> behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will >>>>>> earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new. The >>>>>> philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, >>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough >>>>>> to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a >>>>>> world where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. >>>>>> Technology has seen to that. Whether or not the movement sticks >>>>>> around largely depends on how badly we want it to exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know >>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the >>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to >>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they do >>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial management >>>>>> to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I >>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only >>>>>> goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation >>>>>> of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never >>>>>> taste the real world, you have no business leading. That's like >>>>>> the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe >>>>>> it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it >>>>>> is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>>>> strength. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest >>>>>> I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame >>>>>> attempt to answer the original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>> >>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away >>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com > From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 17:28:15 2014 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:28:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille since u2 Message-ID: <2317B64C99C1439CA1D1E841942CF78C@robert9999b7cf> Hi guys. Do any of you use a Braille since U2? If so, What can a Braille since U2 do that my laptop can not do? RJ From steve.jacobson at visi.com Mon Mar 31 19:41:42 2014 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:41:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB Message-ID: Joe and others, It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself. If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the limits of current technology and explore ways of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it. So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to educate every person who writes software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us to control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an organization. Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through training. This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education. Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself, and you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own. I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we need the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all members, though, to handle change. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >Arielle, >That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >Joe, >I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still within our local chapters. >Sent from my iPhone >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >> drawings and the like. >> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >> could be a loss of programs and resources. >> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>> Hello all. >>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own life, >>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>> Thanks. >>> Mike >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary without >>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joe" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>> >>> >>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>> was >>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the company >>>> >>>> of >>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the real >>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>> leadership >>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>> spirit, >>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>> >>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather disappointing >>>> that >>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I found >>>> it >>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose >>>> of >>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>> more >>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most frustrating >>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from whom >>>> >>>> I >>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>> >>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about the >>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>> efforts >>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>> scope. >>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, or >>>> the >>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>> and >>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>> resources >>>> we've already had. >>>> >>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>> professionals. >>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever will >>>> be >>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>> when >>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much of >>>> >>>> a >>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable enough >>>> to >>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the NFB >>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining true >>>> to >>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves >>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>> >>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't want >>>> >>>> it >>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what I >>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge of >>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>> guide >>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave the >>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>> own >>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give >>>> you >>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had >>>> >>>> to >>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>> will >>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB is >>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. Whether >>>> or >>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it to >>>> exist. >>>> >>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what I've >>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>> happier, >>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>> lesson >>>> in financial management to you. >>>> >>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>> never >>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>> provide >>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up through >>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>> couldn't >>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you excel >>>> at >>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater our >>>> strength. >>>> >>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>> the >>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>> the >>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>> >>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to consume >>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>> and >>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>> >>>> Visit my blog: >>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 21:53:00 2014 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:53:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? Message-ID: Hi all, I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and more than that, the number of blind people with additional disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to help them with. I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going to be elected and welcomed in these positions. Best, Arielle On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: > Joe and others, > > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is > wrong. Organizations are made up of > human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to > be perfect. Still, some of what one > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good > while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more > funds than we used to have to raise. I > do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a > risk. When you look at our budget and > that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it > is certainly clear that legislative > successes are not > proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation > ACB passes or not, I recognize that the > ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel > particularly more so now that our > problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, > for example. There is a lot of emphasis > on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be > accessible, for example. I happen to believe > this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, > particularly on the job, all by itself. > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the limits > of current technology and explore ways > of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about > being able to drive a car, although I > certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I got > very excited about the fact that as a > result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of > getting information that had not been > explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB > reader. At the time, it was something > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB > reader to the lists of registered people at > a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it > start to read the content. There have > probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one > kind or another through our efforts. We > have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, > teachers, and major players in the > technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, > and much of this would not have been > done even now if we hadn't tried it. > > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My > point is that a lot of this is about risks > and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts > will make a difference. Frankly, I am a > believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one learns > from what does, because if you make a > mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those > thousand kids get into math or science > because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better > because of what we did with the KNFB > reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see > a reader that could use artificial > intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to > educate every person who writes > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us to > control the Google self-driving cars > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least > some of the answers are yes, but at this > point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass > roots organization that we were in the > 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was > it the right time for that. But it > also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as > we adjust to change. Joe, what you see > as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied > to say that it has to be that way, > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an > organization. > > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers won't > miraculously make life better, and > the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw > conclusions about such training based > upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and > challenges of seeking employment as a blind > person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in > Minnesota and I assume by our other > centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that > you have to have a set of tools to > approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do more > than run people through training. > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating > that software must be accessible and that > one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but > it won't matter much if we don't have > training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we > don't get a good basic education. > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if > there are no braille instructors in a > given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to > success by itself, and you can't see any > given issue as completely standing on its own. > > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the > complex challenges we face with a larger > budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we > understand where we are going and how our > philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the > challenges of the world and what do we need > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone > asking questions like that outside of this > organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our > understanding of asking for help and looking for > our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is > risky, I think that branching out is a risk > worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all > members, though, to handle change. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: > >>Arielle, >>That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. > >>Joe, >>I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my >> own relationship with the NFB. while I > deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw > potential the organization has moving > forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to > cautious cynicism. I don't think this > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who > can see past the smoke and mirrors of > PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a > no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to > hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and > pander to those with political power > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still > within our local chapters. > >>Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joe, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>> drawings and the like. >>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>> Hello all. >>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>> life, >>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>> Thanks. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>> without >>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joe" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>>> was >>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>> company >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>> real >>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>> leadership >>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>> spirit, >>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>> >>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>> disappointing >>>>> that >>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>> found >>>>> it >>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>> dose >>>>> of >>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>>> more >>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>> frustrating >>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>> whom >>>>> >>>>> I >>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>> >>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>> the >>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>> efforts >>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>> scope. >>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>> or >>>>> the >>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>>> and >>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>> resources >>>>> we've already had. >>>>> >>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>> professionals. >>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>> will >>>>> be >>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>>> when >>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>> enough >>>>> to >>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>> NFB >>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>> true >>>>> to >>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>> ourselves >>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>> >>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>> want >>>>> >>>>> it >>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what >>>>> I >>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>> of >>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>>> guide >>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>> the >>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>>> own >>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>> give >>>>> you >>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>> had >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>>> will >>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>> is >>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>> Whether >>>>> or >>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it >>>>> to >>>>> exist. >>>>> >>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>> I've >>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>> happier, >>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>> lesson >>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>> never >>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>> provide >>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>> through >>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>> couldn't >>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>> excel >>>>> at >>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>> our >>>>> strength. >>>>> >>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>>> the >>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>>> the >>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>> >>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>> consume >>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>>> and >>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 22:20:53 2014 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 18:20:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: New Beginnings Great Music And More On Tonight's Djd Invasion Message-ID: <4AB2E4BDF2C74139A52DD5D563B4DC49@AudioAccessFMPC> Hi All! So when I ended The Djd Invasion show last week, I had annoying people in my life, drama that could strike at any moment, and an old LG Revere phone. As we get closer to show time this week, I've blocked over 25 people on twitter, have no drama, and no more LG phone either! So how did the events of the past week result in me being the proud owner of an I Phone? This story, plus musical variety and more to come your way during tonight's Djd Invasion, which starts at 7 PM eastern on Sky106Radio. And like last week, you the listener get to decide which one of three songs I will torture our beloved Sweet Steaphnie with on her Friday sky show. More to come about that on tonight's show. During the program, you can get in touch Via skype at daviddunphyradio Via twitter at either ddunphyradio sky106radio or posrad Through telephone at 516 945 9165 Send requests to me at http://www.daviddunphyradio.com/requests Download and connect to teamtalk through http://www.daviddunphyradio.com where you can also listen through our mobile player for I Phones and PC's This should be a fun show, so I hope you'll be there. To tune in, either visit http://www.daviddunphyradio.com and click on the play link or put the following into your default media player/media player of choice: http://listen.sky106.net:9016/stream Hope to see you all there! >From David Dunphy From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Mon Mar 31 23:32:07 2014 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:32:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with multiple disabilities? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5339FAF7.3030500@comcast.net> On one hand, being dual disabled, blind and mentally ill, can mean that your family can shelter you a lot and tell you you can't run for a leadership position. That's not right, and I think we need to do some educational campaigns that say that yes, we can lead. Alll this talk of academic excellence could lead to people being left out: people with Turner's Syndrome, Down's Syndrome, etc. Both have limits and one has an educational impairment along with it. We need to educate the people about mental illness in that it does not cause people to go "psychotic" twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. No, it does not mean we are all experiencing delusional thoughts of grandeur. My parents thought I was delusional and placed me under a guardianship due to that and their lack of knowledge and understanding of the disorders I was diagnosed with at 17 and later at 19. There would've been better ideas on solving the problems, but with little knowledge, parents make decisions that aren't always the best, such as guardianship or incapacitation or placement in a group home that won't allow the person to talk with his/her friends. Beth On 3/31/2014 3:53 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number of > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase, and > more than that, the number of blind people with additional > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true when > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort from > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost. > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to > help them with. > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about its > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind wheelchair > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed. I > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there are > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions don't > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there just > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I think > having such divisions could help folks who have additional > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization, and > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education about > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a whole > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would be > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is something > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in > order to change things, change also needs to come from the > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are going > to be elected and welcomed in these positions. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson wrote: >> Joe and others, >> >> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is negative is >> wrong. Organizations are made up of >> human beings and we are not perfect so our creations are not likely going to >> be perfect. Still, some of what one >> person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as >> perspective and opinion. We embarked a good >> while back now on an expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more >> funds than we used to have to raise. I >> do not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this is a >> risk. When you look at our budget and >> that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it >> is certainly clear that legislative >> successes are not >> proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree with legislation >> ACB passes or not, I recognize that the >> ACB has made contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel >> particularly more so now that our >> problems can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, >> for example. There is a lot of emphasis >> on getting more legislation passed that will force software to be >> accessible, for example. I happen to believe >> this is necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us, >> particularly on the job, all by itself. >> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand the limits >> of current technology and explore ways >> of getting information that is new. I am not one who got all excited about >> being able to drive a car, although I >> certainly hope that blind people can do that at some point. However, I got >> very excited about the fact that as a >> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of ways of >> getting information that had not been >> explored before. A significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB >> reader. At the time, it was something >> nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a KNFB >> reader to the lists of registered people at >> a national convention that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it >> start to read the content. There have >> probably been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one >> kind or another through our efforts. We >> have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, >> teachers, and major players in the >> technology field. We couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, >> and much of this would not have been >> done even now if we hadn't tried it. >> >> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this. My >> point is that a lot of this is about risks >> and perspectives. We won't know for a long time if some of these efforts >> will make a difference. Frankly, I am a >> believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't work as one learns >> from what does, because if you make a >> mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those >> thousand kids get into math or science >> because of what we did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better >> because of what we did with the KNFB >> reader? Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see >> a reader that could use artificial >> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of having to >> educate every person who writes >> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way for us to >> control the Google self-driving cars >> because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that at least >> some of the answers are yes, but at this >> point I can't really say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass >> roots organization that we were in the >> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed above, nor was >> it the right time for that. But it >> also means that we change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as >> we adjust to change. Joe, what you see >> as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges of change. I'm not satisfied >> to say that it has to be that way, >> though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and as an >> organization. >> >> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our centers won't >> miraculously make life better, and >> the marketing does sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw >> conclusions about such training based >> upon the marketing. Discussing and exploring the uncertainties and >> challenges of seeking employment as a blind >> person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND Incorporated here in >> Minnesota and I assume by our other >> centers. Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that >> you have to have a set of tools to >> approach a given situation and not just one tool. Still, we have to do more >> than run people through training. >> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though. Legislating >> that software must be accessible and that >> one cannot discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but >> it won't matter much if we don't have >> training. Legislation and even training won't matter all that much if we >> don't get a good basic education. >> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that problem if >> there are no braille instructors in a >> given area. You can't pick any one thing out and say that it can lead to >> success by itself, and you can't see any >> given issue as completely standing on its own. >> >> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to impact the >> complex challenges we face with a larger >> budget than we were. However, it is more important than ever that we >> understand where we are going and how our >> philosophy fits in. The question of what can we change to address the >> challenges of the world and what do we need >> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see anyone >> asking questions like that outside of this >> organization. With our strengths and our failings, I think our >> understanding of asking for help and looking for >> our own solutions is what has set us apart in my mind, and while it is >> risky, I think that branching out is a risk >> worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the help of all >> members, though, to handle change. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >>> Arielle, >>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response. >>> Joe, >>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations furring my >>> own relationship with the NFB. while I >> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the raw >> potential the organization has moving >> forward, the passion I joined with back in high school has turned to >> cautious cynicism. I don't think this >> perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs members who >> can see past the smoke and mirrors of >> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics in a >> no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to >> hear. It is a shame though when those of us less willing to toe the line and >> pander to those with political power >> are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more still >> within our local chapters. >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following the >>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are saying >>>> about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt like >>>> the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with all >>>> the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet that >>>> used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with prize >>>> drawings and the like. >>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it is >>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due to >>>> a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income >>>> sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative >>>> could be a loss of programs and resources. >>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused >>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly >>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not to >>>> join because they perceive hostility from the organization or judgment >>>> of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception only, >>>> and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical >>>> one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find that >>>> could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there >>>> probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of the >>>> organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am not >>>> the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I >>>> first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not all >>>> of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a >>>> negative experience to try again in a different chapter or division >>>> and perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time, >>>> this is something we need to be sensitive to in the organization. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle wrote: >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my own >>>>> life, >>>>> live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size fits all >>>>> mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does. >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM >>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>> list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary >>>>> without >>>>> the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a mentoor. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe" >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While there I >>>>>> was >>>>>> caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be in the >>>>>> company >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me as a >>>>>> recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer as a >>>>>> counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with the >>>>>> real >>>>>> world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from attending a >>>>>> national convention or Washington Seminar or one of the weekend >>>>>> leadership >>>>>> seminars in Baltimore. They are very well-suited to boost a person's >>>>>> spirit, >>>>>> but I believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with >>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other nonprofit >>>>>> business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn it needs more >>>>>> members to help raise the money. Still, I found it rather >>>>>> disappointing >>>>>> that >>>>>> so much of the board meeting I tuned into listen to last summer was >>>>>> dominated by calls to raise money for this fund or that effort. I >>>>>> found >>>>>> it >>>>>> even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly >>>>>> dose >>>>>> of >>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of generating >>>>>> more >>>>>> ways to drum up more financial support, but perhaps the most >>>>>> frustrating >>>>>> byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails from so-called friends from >>>>>> whom >>>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their NFB >>>>>> fundraising campaigns. >>>>>> >>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot about >>>>>> the >>>>>> movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead development >>>>>> efforts >>>>>> for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also national in >>>>>> scope. >>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the top, >>>>>> or >>>>>> the >>>>>> only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on recruiting new blood >>>>>> and >>>>>> raising new money and forget about strengthening the members and >>>>>> resources >>>>>> we've already had. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind >>>>>> professionals. >>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I ever >>>>>> will >>>>>> be >>>>>> and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but they shun the >>>>>> organization because they were turned away or because they were never >>>>>> welcomed in the first place. It's something I should have kept in mind >>>>>> when >>>>>> I had my brief taste of leadership in the organization. I had too much >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable >>>>>> enough >>>>>> to >>>>>> get the job done. But, getting the job done should have really meant >>>>>> attracting and pulling in these men and women who could have made the >>>>>> NFB >>>>>> lots better, listening to new ideas, and most important, remaining >>>>>> true >>>>>> to >>>>>> the cause and not some multi-million-dollar institute we find >>>>>> ourselves >>>>>> incapable of sustaining. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I don't >>>>>> want >>>>>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well know what >>>>>> I >>>>>> think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on the verge >>>>>> of >>>>>> spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB banner will only >>>>>> guide >>>>>> your way so far. Take what's great about the organization and leave >>>>>> the >>>>>> political drama and marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your >>>>>> own >>>>>> wits and talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never >>>>>> give >>>>>> you >>>>>> anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always >>>>>> had >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president, and I >>>>>> will >>>>>> be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to reverse this >>>>>> downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a world where the NFB >>>>>> is >>>>>> necessary for collective momentum. Technology has seen to that. >>>>>> Whether >>>>>> or >>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we want it >>>>>> to >>>>>> exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know what >>>>>> I've >>>>>> found from the people I've met on that side of the house? They seem >>>>>> happier, >>>>>> and that's something we can't seem to figure out in our camp. The few >>>>>> victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be a >>>>>> lesson >>>>>> in financial management to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I would >>>>>> never >>>>>> become one of those bitter former NFB members. My only goal was to >>>>>> provide >>>>>> different perspectives to the new generation of leaders coming up >>>>>> through >>>>>> the ranks. After all, if you never taste the real world, you have no >>>>>> business leading. That's like the teacher who teaches because they >>>>>> couldn't >>>>>> cut it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you >>>>>> excel >>>>>> at >>>>>> whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there are, the greater >>>>>> our >>>>>> strength. >>>>>> >>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest I be >>>>>> the >>>>>> rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame attempt to answer >>>>>> the >>>>>> original question, my answer would be this: >>>>>> >>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to >>>>>> consume >>>>>> what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away what will not, >>>>>> and >>>>>> wisdom to recognize the difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit my blog: >>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capelle%40frontier.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >