[nabs-l] question about independence

Wed Mar 5 02:40:47 UTC 2014

Hi, Arielle and everyone,

         As more of a youngster, I used to think this premise carried 
with it more logic than it actually does. Of course, upon one's 
interacting with a single blind person then of course, that person 
would set the tambour of all future blind people. Yet, I think I have 
identified the reality in which individuals set the pace for 
themselves. Good discussion!
for today, Car
408-209-3239

,

>It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind
>person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree
>with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind
>people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me
>think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm
>negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups.
>I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with
>managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our
>own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive
>relationships with others around us.
>
>Best,
>Arielle
>
>On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely.
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Antonio
> >
> > On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Greetings.
> >>
> >> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce this
> >> message.
> >>
> >> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so
> >> complicated.
> >>
> >> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based on
> >> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about
> >> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who
> >> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently
> >> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis that
> >> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any task
> >> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their own,
> >> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further
> >> training.
> >>
> >> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is
> >> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr.
> >> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much
> >> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more
> >> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more convenient
> >> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for someone.
> >> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case
> >> basis.
> >>
> >> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with
> >> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as
> >> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you take
> >> a human guide  most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this thread
> >> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this
> >> concept of autonomy.
> >>
> >> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even though
> >> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and
> >> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when
> >> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person
> >> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a
> >> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the
> >> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves
> >> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of
> >> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided people
> >> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these
> >> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of autonomy
> >> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when they
> >> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound
> >> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the problem
> >> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations
> >> are both internal and external.
> >>
> >> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the case
> >> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we
> >> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience
> >> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can contribute
> >> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the
> >> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be
> >> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a
> >> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never get
> >> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous.
> >>
> >> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence as
> >> it relates to all the topics discussed above.
> >>
> >> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices
> >> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to do
> >> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate
> >> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to get
> >> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be
> >> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that
> >> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then
> >> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively
> >> and working on your own.
> >>
> >> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the situation
> >> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words,
> >> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know
> >> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique
> >> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are
> >> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without
> >> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help
> >> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice
> >> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward between
> >> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems
> >> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one
> >> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make
> >> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the
> >> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who
> >> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any
> >> information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, I
> >> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally
> >> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that
> >> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that I
> >> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it means
> >> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that
> >> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes
> >> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade
> >> for the help they give me.
> >>
> >> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with unwanted
> >> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I
> >> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the
> >> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to do
> >> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is
> >> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an ambassador
> >> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research tells
> >> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there
> >> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel
> >> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy
> >> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone gets
> >> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between getting
> >> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the reality
> >> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes,
> >> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all
> >> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness.
> >>
> >> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's
> >> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the notion
> >> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder.
> >>
> >> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the
> >> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that
> >> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about
> >> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to
> >> independence. I have found this to be less so than not.
> >>
> >> Respectfully,
> >> Jedi
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Good morning, Antonio,
> >>>
> >>>       I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my
> >>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and  not
> >>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their
> >>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help
> >>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers.
> >>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't
> >>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as well.
> >>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to
> >>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so be
> >>> it It doesn't matter, in the end.
> >>>  It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more
> >>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually abstract
> >>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way,
> >>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply by
> >>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward
> >>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to
> >>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in
> >>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are
> >>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and
> >>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight of
> >>> this reality.
> >>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote:
> >>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks
> >>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy.
> >>>>
> >>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they deal
> >>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close
> >>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our social
> >>>> groups.
> >>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may
> >>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay
> >>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I feel
> >>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight
> >>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing
> >>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, someone
> >>>> will have a perception of that.
> >>>>
> >>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know
> >>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my own,
> >>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing
> >>>> wrong with my approach on either day.
> >>>>
> >>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the
> >>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my
> >>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I may
> >>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and
> >>>> will do so very firmly.
> >>>>
> >>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling
> >>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to
> >>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide.
> >>>>
> >>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because
> >>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and
> >>>> quick.
> >>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how I
> >>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe.
> >>>>
> >>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling a
> >>>> short distance guided by the cane direction.
> >>>>
> >>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about safety,
> >>>> I will be guided by Cain.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences between
> >>>> me, and the guy.
> >>>>
> >>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She
> >>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by Cain,
> >>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual
> >>>> trouble from that.
> >>>>
> >>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How
> >>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to situation.
> >>>> It changes with time also.
> >>>>
> >>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is the
> >>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with
> >>>> something or another.
> >>>>
> >>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and
> >>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different
> >>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think
> >>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost?
> >>>>
> >>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from help,
> >>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day.
> >>>>
> >>>> Antonio
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you
> >>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed <malhajamy at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence.  Earlier, someone
> >>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread.  That reminds me of
> >>>>>> something.  So, this friday, I was in a cab.  I go to school by taking
> >>>>>> cabs.  So, this driver in  particular, he wanted to help me  with
> >>>>>> practically everything.  Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's  door,
> >>>>>> getting into the school, everything.  This is what I'm wondering.
> >>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? In
> >>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done
> >>>>>> what I did, and politely said no?
> >>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>>
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