[nagdu] nagdu Digest, Vol 44, Issue 23
Garry and Joy Relton
relton30857 at cox.net
Wed Nov 26 18:03:25 UTC 2008
Hi bunny et al,
I just want to clarify a little that Europe may allow dogs in restaurants
without any problems but the attitude concerning entering museums is a
little different. There are cards you can get from the consulate to permit
you to enter the various museums etc. The other issue I found in restaurants
was the distraction of the dogs. It wasn't anything serious once you worked
with the restaurant employees and the dog owners. The other thing I
experienced I had that you need to be careful that the staff realizes that
you don't want your dog fed at the table. A socer of milk didn't bother me
as much as the attempt to feed my dog bones from a bird. The intent was
great, but the consequences were potentially very dangerous.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of nagdu-request at nfbnet.org
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:00 PM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: nagdu Digest, Vol 44, Issue 23
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: New to list (Marion & Martin)
2. therapy dog v service dog (Bunny Davidson)
3. Re: one sided representing on guide dog school list
(Margo and Elmo)
4. in my defense (cheryl echevarria)
5. (no subject) (Bunny Davidson)
6. Re: service vs therapy dogs and welcome (Mardi Hadfield)
7. Re: service vs therapy dogs and welcome (Ted Shelly)
8. Re: New to list (Pickrell, Rebecca M.)
9. Re: newbie intro & comment on previous submitted cruiseship Q
(Pickrell, Rebecca M.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 13:56:08 -0500
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New to list
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <001501c94d9d$aaa4c8a0$6501a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
Ted,
Welcome to the NAGDU list. I know you will find a great deal of
information and support.
Let me personally apologize for the NAGDU web site. We are revamping the
whole thing and some of the links are not yet connected.That will be
corrected soon!
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users
National Federation of the Blind
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Shelly" <tshelly at optonline.net>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 1:47 PM
Subject: [nagdu] New to list
> Hello all,
>
> I just joined the list and I'm hoping to pick up some good information
> on guide dogs. I have been contemplating for some time the idea of
> getting a dog and today I am putting in the mail applications to two
> providers - Fidelco and Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>
> For the past few months I've been doing my homework on the subject..
> I've done the Hadley School's course, which has a lot of good
> information. I've downloaded and read several books from Bookshare and
> I've read through the web sites of several providers. I chose to
> apply to Fidelco because they are close by and come to your home for
> training. I'm also applying to GDB for several reasons: They have a
> facility in Oregon, where I used to live and still have friends and
> family. Also I once met one of their directors and he gave me a good
> feeling about the quality of their program.
>
> I would be interested in other resources that anyone on the lists
> knows
> of.
> In particular, sources of books or articles that are available in
> electronic
> form. I checked out the nagdu web site, but there seem to be many broken
> links. The newsletter does not seem to be available at all.
>
> I'll be interested to monitor this list and observe the issues and
> comments
> of all of you.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ted Shelly
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
n.net
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:49:46 -0500
From: Bunny Davidson <bunnydavidson at live.com>
Subject: [nagdu] therapy dog v service dog
To: <annedie at nycap.rr.com>, service dog list <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <BAY119-W41177A966E9FB3284EBAB0C1090 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello anne,
before i became disabled i was one of the first to have certified therapy
dogs
admitted into one of NJ better hospitals.
the name of the organization that tested my dogs and i was called
"therapy dogs international" their headquarters is in wyoming, and i know
they did a nice monthly magazine sent to all paid up members. Perhaphs now
they even have an online site, list or something.
fell free to google and contact them, and pass on that article.
I am in total agreement - i have been on both ends of this situation and you
are right THERAPY DOGS ARE NOT PRIVY TO SAME ACCESS AS SERVICE DOGS, AND
MANY FOLKS WITH THERAPY DOGS DO THINK / ACT LIKE THEY ARE SAME.
A few months ago i was at a community / church dinner- the minister has a
little teacup yorkie that she takes everywhere with her in a purse, then
lets it run wild without a leash when she gets to her destination (ie: the
church dining hall).
I had to go over and ask her to restrain or remove her dog because it kept
coming up to me and my dog and jumping all over and causing kaos.
She said, oh my so and so is a service dog too, we go to hospitals and
nursing homes...blah blah...
I tried to explain that a even a service dog is required by the USDJ to be
leashed/ and kept with the person it served, not let loose to roam in public
venues disturbing other patrons.
I also tried to explain that what her dog did by going to hospitals was not
acting as a "service dog" but was legally refered to as a "therapy dog".(she
didnt listen kept saying she understood, so and so was a service dog blah
blah) - i did try to explain what a service dog was and what difference it
made legaly but i know she didnt listen: I returned there the next month for
the monthly meal and her silly dog was all over the place loose again and
she was no where in sight of the disturbance it caused to me and my dog.
I hope to find this nutty rev. and get her email / or give her a copy of
this article myself if i can.
Bunny
_________________________________________________________________
Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile?.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:03:58 -0500
From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] one sided representing on guide dog school list
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <6F531A8B5EF1499CB9EA35710C07B2ED at demoPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
Thanks, jenine, for the clarification. People on any list are not always
gong to like what we say or what we post or misunderstand what we post.
I figure if the moderators of a list allow this or that or don't like
something I've posted or the way I've posted it, I'll know for sure.
Margo andElmo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] one sided representing on guide dog school list
> Sorry if I've missed something in a discussion that might have
> prompted Cheryl's message. I seem to be getting double messages on
> several lists lately.
>
> I realize this may not be taken in the spirit in which it is meant due
> to
> my
> employment by the guide dog school, but I have given the school's opinion
> on
> our graduate list, when people have complained about Cheryl's posting of
> NFB
> and NAGDU events, that the list welcomes such postings of events from
> anyone
> and any blindness organization. The moderators have also stated this to
> Cheryl privately and to list members. The list does allow meeting
> announcements and other material as long as it has to do with guide dogs,
> from any organization. We regularly post Cheryl's meeting announcements.
> We
> cannot, however, be responsible for any off-list messages sent to her
> criticizing her posting of such material and when messages have been sent
> to
> the moderators and myself as a representative of the school regarding such
> postings, we have all said that we encourage posting of meeting
> announcements and other guide dog related material from any blindness
> organization and that people may delete such messages if they do not wish
> to
> read them. We, being the moderators, and myself when asked, encourage
> anyone
> posting such messages to make the subject clear in the subject line and
> not
> post without official permission of the organization.
>
> As for the Long Island Acb president being one of our volunteer staff
> in
> our
> GPS program, it's my understanding that he was just recently elected to
> that
> position and since we have not held a GPS class since mid 2007, he hasn't
> had a chance to spread the word about Long Island ACB. <grin> He is also
> not
> a member of our graduate list.
>
> Not sure what provoked Cheryl's message but I did want to keep the
> record straight from GDF's end. As I stated at this summer's NAGDU
> convention, we give out the address and web site for NAGDU to all
> graduating teams in their grad packet. We also often refer people to
> NAGDU and NFB for local assistance with advocacy issues. Marion can
> verify that I've contacted him several times for this purpose.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizo
n.net
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:30:05 -0500
From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
Subject: [nagdu] in my defense
To: "nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <BAY131-DS714F44A06B0B39BD7AFABA1080 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I just brought to the attention of nagdu list, what I felt was important.
I am also not going to apologize for my opinions. I stand up for what I
believe and we will be repremanded and shot down for what we believe.
Not everyone is going to like what everyone says, like I said it was my
opinion. I know other people have posted not on this list of on the gdf grad
list that they have been black listed or even were told not to come back to
school's because of what they believe. To educate is to show the good and
the bad, and the ugly.
I take full responsibility for my actions of what comes out of my mouth.
As state it was my concerns with my situation. And the person I speak of is
not newly elected which really doesn't matter at all.
I put things out there on the grad list about NAGDU, never discussed
politics in fact I also posted when I put anything if anyone wanted to
discuss matters they can do it off list.
I am not arguing this.
My concern is that when someone from the schools put something on the list
such as PSA's or other items out there but not ours is not right either.
Cheryl Echevarria
Treasurer
National Federation of the Blind Greater Long Island Chapter.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:06:53 -0500
From: Bunny Davidson <bunnydavidson at live.com>
Subject: [nagdu] (no subject)
To: service dog list <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <COL104-W227470EEAFD2AB7872E187C1080 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi all
i guess im passionate about the misinformation generators that affect our
lives!
I cut/pasted that article on service v therapy dogs and composed a letter to
the address given on therapy dog intl. website. in searching for other
therapy groups to "educate" lol... I found a couple real good rescources,
the first link is a page to a url that deals mostly with therapy dogs, but
this page explains what service dogs are, what they are entitled to do, and
lists many helpful links to various state laws concerning service dogs
et..there are many lists and groups links there for folks using service
dogs.
Service Dogs and Other Special Animal Relationships Links
http://www.dogplay.com/Activities/Therapy/special.html
this link is to a misinformed moron (ha!) who is printing and selling
textiles
with this on them:
Therapy dogs Animal Assisted Activities
(he thinks that this statement/ label on all tshirts, hats, bags et, is
non-contradictory! LOL)
http://www.cafepress.com/dogtherapy
i wrote him with copies of the ADA definition of service dog & told him that
a therapy dog doesnt assist, a service dog does...
(cant wait to hear back!)
Therapy dogs Animal Assisted Activities store : Therapy dogs Animal ...
... for the blind, service dogs, guide dog, working dog, certified therapy
animal... Therapy dogs Animal Assisted Activities store. Shopkeeper: Name:
... http://www.cafepress.com/dogtherapy
the above is how his site is displayed on search engine.
best to all
bunny
_________________________________________________________________
Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_access_
112008
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:52:49 -0700
From: "Mardi Hadfield" <wolfsinger.lakota at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] service vs therapy dogs and welcome
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Message-ID:
<9023d1d70811231852jb9da47bqc0343b481923d85d at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi every one, I have had similar experiences with Therapy dog owners.
They seem to think they know it all. They seem to think,because I am in a
wheelchair that my dog is not a guide.They can't see beyond the chair. My
dog must be a "wheelchair dog",because I use a wheelchair. I am told that I
don't look blind. Can some one tell me what a blind person looks like? Do
they all look the same? I get so aggravated at these people, that I don't
even try to explain. I just roll away and ignore them. There are too many
other battles that are more important to take care of. Welcome
Ted. All my guides have been Siberian Huskies except for my current
trainee,Wanagi. She is a Husky/Shepherd cross, and I adopted her from the
pound. I have trained my dogs with the aid of a private trainer. I am sure
that whatever school you choose, you will get a wonderful, and faithful
partner. Have a great day, Mardi and Nala, retired, Wanagi, gdit, and
Tokala,gdit.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:17:53 -0500
From: Ted Shelly <tshelly at optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] service vs therapy dogs and welcome
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <2B448A2DF62B433DB03D2DA759E44B30 at ShellyD>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mardi,
Thank you for the welcome. I'm fascinated by your use of Siberians. I
think those are fantastic dogs, but I didn't know anyone was using them as
guides. Maybe you can write me off-list and tell me more about your
experiences (tshelly at optonline.net).
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Mardi Hadfield
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 9:53 PM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nagdu] service vs therapy dogs and welcome
Hi every one, I have had similar experiences with Therapy dog owners.
They seem to think they know it all. They seem to think,because I am in a
wheelchair that my dog is not a guide.They can't see beyond the chair. My
dog must be a "wheelchair dog",because I use a wheelchair. I am told that I
don't look blind. Can some one tell me what a blind person looks like? Do
they all look the same? I get so aggravated at these people, that I don't
even try to explain. I just roll away and ignore them. There are too many
other battles that are more important to take care of. Welcome
Ted. All my guides have been Siberian Huskies except for my current
trainee,Wanagi. She is a Husky/Shepherd cross, and I adopted her from the
pound. I have trained my dogs with the aid of a private trainer. I am sure
that whatever school you choose, you will get a wonderful, and faithful
partner. Have a great day, Mardi and Nala, retired, Wanagi, gdit, and
Tokala,gdit.
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tshelly%40optonline.n
et
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:28:56 -0500
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M." <Rebecca.Pickrell at ngc.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New to list
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <52B67E1F32707847B44B4B7B1238E3631541071D at xmbv3801>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
How did you manage school, combined with training and bonding with your dog?
Curious.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Hope Paulos
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 7:16 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users;
nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nagdu] New to list
EITHER Ted. Where are you from? You sdFidelco is close to you.
I'm from Maine and have a Fidelco dog. I loved the experience. i had
JohnByfield, one of the best trainersat Fidelco. Many people would say he
is the best. I think my training period lasted 12 to 14days and we worked
extensively. He gave me the weekends off, though, which was good, because
boy did he like to getup early! The earlier for him the better! Smile. The
2 main reasons I picked Fidelco was that they train exclusively shepherds
(which is what I wanted most of all) and the in community training. I
couldn't take time off from school and I didn't want to wait until the
Summer to get a dog. Good luck with your research and please keep us posted
about the school you're excepted to! Hope and Fidelco's Beignet
> ----- Original Message -----
>From: Ted Shelly <tshelly at optonline.net
>To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:47:47 -0500
>Subject: [nagdu] New to list
>Hello all,
>I just joined the list and I'm hoping to pick up some good
information on
>guide dogs. I have been contemplating for some time the idea of
getting a
>dog and today I am putting in the mail applications to two
providers -
>Fidelco and Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>For the past few months I've been doing my homework on the
subject.. I've
>done the Hadley School's course, which has a lot of good
information. I've
>downloaded and read several books from Bookshare and I've read
through the
>web sites of several providers. I chose to apply to Fidelco
because they
>are close by and come to your home for training. I'm also
applying to GDB
>for several reasons: They have a facility in Oregon, where I
used to live
>and still have friends and family. Also I once met one of their
directors
>and he gave me a good feeling about the quality of their program.
>I would be interested in other resources that anyone on the lists
knows of.
>In particular, sources of books or articles that are available in
electronic
>form. I checked out the nagdu web site, but there seem to be
many broken
>links. The newsletter does not seem to be available at all.
> I'll be interested to monitor this list and observe the issues
and comments
>of all of you.
>Best regards,
>Ted Shelly
>_______________________________________________
>nagdu mailing list
>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for nagdu:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/hope.paulo
s%40maine.edu
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
40ngc.com
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:33:52 -0500
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M." <Rebecca.Pickrell at ngc.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] newbie intro & comment on previous submitted
cruiseship Q
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <52B67E1F32707847B44B4B7B1238E3631541071F at xmbv3801>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Linda.
Just now reading this, and cognrads on moving to be with your boyfriend.
Yay! Write me off-list, I'm a sucker for romance, and am glad that you got
together with your long-time friend, like we'd talked about.
Yay for both of you!
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 5:41 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] newbie intro & comment on previous submitted cruiseship
Q
Hi Bunny,
Welcome to the list. Sometimes people say where they are living, sometimes
not. I live in San Diego, CA and am working with my eighth guide, a
Lab/Golden cross named Landon. I got home from The Seeing Eye with him a
year ago.
I did notice that you live in New England. I am a native New Englander and I
am planning on moving back to Vermont next summer to be with my boyfriend.
I'm moving to Montpelier, VT and they are very good about guide dogs. Is
your dog a guide dog or are you a sighted disabled person working with a
service dog? A visually impaired service dog user? Or a combination? I
lived in Montpelier way before the ADA and I don't recall having any access
problems with my guide dog. I was treated like a normal person - like
everyone else. I was there two years ago and still no problems. There are
several guide dog users there but I don't know anything about if people have
any service dogs. I did encounter several wheelchair users running around
in the downtown area. Where are you living - Vermont or Massachusetts. Are
you near Brattleboro?
There is a Vermont State NFB meeting this coming Saturday in Brattleboro.
If you would like to go, contact the State NFB President, Franlkin Shiner,
and let him know you'd like to go and he'll give you the details. His email
is fshiner at verizon.net. Tell him his friend Linda sent you. Franklin can
hook you up with a chapter in your area if you aren't with a chapter now. I
plan to join the Montpelier chapter when I move back there.
I have found Montpelier a very good place to live. When I lived there and
was going to Goddard College, I got the State of Vermont to issue non-driver
ID cards from the DMV. There were no IDs availible for people who didn't
drive back then. Now, they do! Working on this project was my college
senior year project and I am so glad it was a sucessful project. I will
finally get one of my very own when I move back there! I also ran for VT
State Senate there back in 1978.
Take care.
Linda and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bunny Davidson" <bunnydavidson at live.com>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 10:20 AM
Subject: [nagdu] newbie intro & comment on previous submitted cruise ship Q
Hi all,
I have been reading for a few weeks and decided today to enter the
participation realm!
My name is Bunny, my guide's name is Lady.
(i am not sure how much info is appropriate or customary here)
I feel so releaved to be a part of this list. I am in an isolated Rural
Mayberry RFD type area of
new england and sometimes feel like david vs. goliath when trying to go
about my biz with my dog.
I read with interest every post and thank you all so much for this list,
your comments and the education/experience you all share here. i dont know
who heads this list, but thank you to them especially.
Is there a place where we can see who belongs and where they are from ?
(like is there any membership list/profile info)?
if so please direct me...
my lady is getting on in years and i have begun a bit of inquiry to find a
new service dog.
I got her at 2 years old from a family who no longer had time for her.
I worked with dogs professionaly prior to my injuries, and had no problem (i
welcomed)
the oportunity to train her to my specific needs.
if any of you can share with me any tips on obtaining an adult dog (1-3
yrs)
that i can train please share.
I am in the western mass/southern vermont border area if any of you know of
any places i can seek out a dog to adopt.
I have had several occasions in the last 12 years to defend my rights under
the ada, and i usually keep a printout
in ladys vest pocket to show ignorant policemen who are called about me /dog
or by me and dog for help where i am denied access.
I do know there is no american's with disabilities act once you leave our
country. so for the woman cuising, keep that in mind.
I also know that in europe for instance, there is no need for a service dog
law, as dogs go all over with the owners.
it is common to see german shephards, boxers et... in german restarants ,
cafe's and shops. No one gets all upity about it, its normal there. To bad
we need a law here, even worse most dont even know laws principals
nor do they act within it so often.
maybe you can find an online community events/social chat based in bahamas
or wherever your ship is docking, ask them to tell you
what is common protocol there for people with pet dogs & for people with
guide dogs? just an idea, the internet is full of rescources.
God bless you all, and most of all bless god for our wonderful dogs.
Bunny
BunnyBunBunaBUN-Dance,BUNderful, BunTastic, Some Bun Special,
Cuddle-bunSweetBUN (if you think of more, let me know!)
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows(r) connects the people, information, and fun that are part
of
your life
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119463819/direct/01/
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End of nagdu Digest, Vol 44, Issue 23
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