[nagdu] ownership
cheryl echevarria
cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
Mon Apr 27 11:38:58 UTC 2009
at the guide dog foundation of smithtown we have a choice and I choose to
own my dog.
I think we all should have that option.
Cheryl Echevarria
----- Original Message -----
From: <nagdu-request at nfbnet.org>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:35 AM
Subject: nagdu Digest, Vol 49, Issue 27
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Statistics on Guide Dog use (Angie Matney)
> 2. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Sherri)
> 3. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Sherri)
> 4. Re: Statistics on Guide Dog use (Jenine Stanley)
> 5. Devil's advocate on ownership (Jenine Stanley)
> 6. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Garry and Joy Relton)
> 7. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (sblanjones11)
> 8. Re: Statistics on Guide Dog use (Angie Matney)
> 9. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (d m gina)
> 10. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (d m gina)
> 11. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Peter Donahue)
> 12. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Elizabeth Campbell)
> 13. Re: Devil's advocate on ownership (d m gina)
> 14. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (d m gina)
> 15. Re: Devil's advocate on ownership (Angie Matney)
> 16. Re: Statistics on Guide Dog use (Marion & Martin)
> 17. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Marion & Martin)
> 18. Re: Devil's advocate on ownership (Jenine Stanley)
> 19. Re: Devil's advocate on ownership (Marion & Martin)
> 20. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Angie Matney)
> 21. Re: Statistics on Guide Dog use (Angie Matney)
> 22. Re: Statistics on Guide Dog use (Danielle Nicole Larsen)
> 23. Re: Devil's advocate on ownership (sblanjones11)
> 24. Re: Devil's advocate on ownership (Angie Matney)
> 25. Re: Devil's advocate on ownership (Sherri)
> 26. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (tina thomas )
> 27. Re: Devil's advocate on ownership (Marion & Martin)
> 28. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Marion & Martin)
> 29. Re: NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership (Marion & Martin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:31:34 -0400
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <49f4a885.02c3f10a.5db1.4279 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Marion,
>
>
>
> I just listened to your excellent initerview on Through Our Eyes.
>
>
>
> I have a question. You mentioned that approximately 5 to 7% of blind
> people
> use guide dogs. Can you cite the source for this statistic? I ask because
> all other sources I have seen give a much lower figure-somewhere around
> 1%.
> Does the statistic you cite include all blind people, or only those who
> use
> some form of mobility aid other than sighted guide?
>
>
>
> Also, I'm not sure how many conclusions we can draw based on the number of
> teams in attendance at national convention. I think that the group who
> attends national convention is not likely to be an accurate representation
> of the demographic of all blind people. I think the group at convention
> probably has a higher rate of guide-dog use than blind people as a whole.
> Also, I would guess that the number of guide-dog teams at ACB's convention
> is even higher. Perhaps Jenine or someone else on list can speak to this
> point.
>
>
>
> Again, thanks for representing NAGDU so eloquently.
>
>
>
> Angie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:37:35 -0400
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <81A51C5A59C245EE875835579484ABA2 at owner6f8520fac>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> I am aware of that, but hopefully by then, they will have changed their
> policy once again. Hey, I have to wait two years before I outright own my
> Laptop that the Division of Blind Services just got me. *smile.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> > Sherry,
> > When you go back to leader dogs, you will have to wait two years before
> > you can own your dog again.
> > this is a new thing just starting with leader.
> > I don't remember the year they started this, I can say it happened after
> > 2004.
> > I speak because I was a leader dog grad.
> > Just some thoughts.
> >
> > --
> > --Dar
> > every saint has a past
> > every sinner has a future
> >
> > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:36:33 -0400
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <06D0052637044D918FCAF66A2490E2D7 at owner6f8520fac>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I have no problem with a positively worded resolution, but I don't want
> any
> schools condemned and deplored for their ownership policy. *smile.
> Sherri
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> > Would those of you with dogs from Leader, GEB, GDB, and other schools
> > that
> > don't grant immediate ownership have a problem with a resolution
> > encouraging
> > the schools to reconsider these policies and to find ways to promote
> > self-determination for their students? I'm just curious. A resolution
> > doesn't have to state that all NFB members will only attend schools that
> > grant immediate ownership of the dog at graduation.
> >
> > I ask because if we came up with a resolution that urged Seeing Eye to
> > reconsider some policy in light of consumer preference, I could
> > potentially
> > support it, even though I plan to get all my future dogs from that
> > school.
> >
> > Angie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Sherri
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:07 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> > Joining the minority view, I agree. I was very pleased with my training
> > experience at Leader and though having ownership does carry some weight
> > and
> > at the time I went to Leader, which was 2004, I owned my dog, I will
> > probably go back there for my next guide dog.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> >
> >> Marion,
> >> What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> >> Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as policy?
> >> Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers. I
> >> believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> >> forcing
> >> this issue.
> >> JMHO.
> >> Susan
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Marion & Martin
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >> Susan,
> >> Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> >> spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> >> should.
> >> Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the convention
> >> of
> >> the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members think?
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >>
> >>> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >>> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>>
> >>> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >>> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >>> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >>> voted on that as policy.
> >>>
> >>> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put it
> >>> at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >>> JMHO.
> >>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>
> >>> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> >>> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>
> >>> The next link to pick is:
> >>> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >>>
> >>> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >>> for.
> >>> The
> >>> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>>
> >>> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >>> computer.
> >>> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >>> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >>> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >>> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to that
> >>> folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >>> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >>> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >>> (Control O).
> >>> Navigate
> >>> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >>> downloaded and press enter.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >>> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer only.
> >>>
> >>> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >>> archived shows that you will like.
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Vince
> >>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >>> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Message -----
> >>> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >>> found
> >>> on
> >>> our podcast
> >>>
> >>> or archive podcast pages.
> >>>
> >>> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>
> >>> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >>> night's
> >>> show
> >>> this afternoon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Quintina
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>>right
> >>>> podcast.
> >>>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for example,
> >>>> steps,
> >>>> as to how to get there?
> >>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>>> Thanks.
> >>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>> Behalf
> >>>> Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>>
> >>>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >>>> Marion,
> >>>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs, your
> >>>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU support
> >>>> since
> >>>> you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point to share for
> >>>> the
> >>>> NFB
> >>>> support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners into the NFB. The
> >>>> description
> >>>> of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were uplifting and positively
> >>>> stated.
> >>>> You
> >>>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>>> We,
> >>>> from
> >>>> the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and thank you
> >>>> for
> >>>> joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as the NAGDU
> >>>> President.
> >>>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>>> why
> >>>> or
> >>>> when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or another
> >>>> method.
> >>>> These
> >>>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>>> good
> >>>> to
> >>>> hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working with our
> >>>> four
> >>>> legged partners.
> >>>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and future
> >>>> topics
> >>>> you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have missed the live
> >>>> broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or through the
> >>>> archive
> >>>> link
> >>>> on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the link is:
> >>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>>> wife,
> >>>> my
> >>>> heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear partner. All
> >>>> God's
> >>>> blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of you...
> >>>>
> >>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>>> Coe-Chair
> >>>> Lead _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>> bal.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >>> .net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >>> .net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>> bal.net
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
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> >> n.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> bal.net
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > com
> >
> >
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:08:59 -0400
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <79A70FA84743423B99B1E02BD1E0D868 at dragonslayer>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Angie,
>
> The Acb ratio is usually around 2000 people attending convention with
> anywhere from 300 to 400 guide dog teams. Much of this depends on the
> venue
> as well. I expect that in 2010 in Phoenix, a number of people will choose
> to
> leave their dogs at home due to the climate. Generally, though people are
> asked to note their mobility tool n the registration, only around 150 to
> 200
> guide dog handlers do so. The actual count tends to be much higher.
>
> Hope those stats helped flesh out your point, or were just interesting.
> <grin>
>
> Conventions by their nature are going to attract only a certain percentage
> of membership from either organization. I applaud NAGDU for publicizing
> its
> board meetings and making them open to the public. I think that goes a
> long
> way toward making members feel a part of the organization.
>
> It looks as if I will be joining you all in Detroit this summer and look
> forward to it. I had a great time last year and now that I know more of
> you
> from the list, it will be fun to match voices with email.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 15:35:07 -0400
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <246BEFB5BD124B749D9640995596B94B at dragonslayer>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I am
> very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
> graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
> schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon
> graduation.
> I know GDF did so.
>
> That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some type
> of
> custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog and
> hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
> involved?
>
> I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
> this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide
> dog.
> Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
>
> Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused their
> dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope that
> no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
> enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
> Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd
> wager
> do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be
> taken
> away.
>
> This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
> graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
> killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was, how did
> this
> person get a dog to begin with?
>
> That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
> killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before the
> incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from
> their
> donors and others over the incident though.
>
> Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally,
> I'll
> reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
>
> It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
> "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection from
> me, why have I been accepted for training?
>
> That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle situations
> in
> which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally owned?
>
> Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we
> would
> consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the animal
> control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse allegations,
> even when they are legitimate.
>
> Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog is
> too
> much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as a
> child and that may not be kindly.
>
> What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint about a
> grad?
>
> We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
> reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage
> though
> of complaints that are valid.
>
> How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if you
> found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
>
> I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that the
> schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on that
> one. <grin>
>
> >From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may
> >cause
> policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
> returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of these
> dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or another.
> Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. Yet,
> if
> the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she
> wants.
> Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed
> with
> another person.
>
> How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
> something we all hope happens but something that can change for any team
> over time?
>
> Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing
> questions
> as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the
> desk.
> Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes those
> people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:15:39 -0400
> From: "Garry and Joy Relton" <relton30857 at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <9FCD4D17F6CA414A83D94C1A61B8D489 at JoyRelton>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I firmly believe that immediate ownership is the correct and proper thing
> to
> do. Other policies are patronizing and counter productive to thee goal of
> achieving greater independence.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> Susan,
> Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they should.
> Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the convention of
> the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members think?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
>
>
> > Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> > I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >
> > The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> > division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy. Correct
> > me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever voted on
> > that as policy.
> >
> > I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put it
> > at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school. JMHO.
> > Susan & Rhoda
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> > link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >
> > http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >
> > The next link to pick is:
> > To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >
> > The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> > for.
> > The
> > header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >
> > This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> > computer. To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file,
> > you would place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then
> > manually do a right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save
> > As, pick a place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your
> > focus to that folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> > This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing starts,
> > you
> > may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open (Control O).
> > Navigate
> > yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> > downloaded
> > and press enter.
> >
> > Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> > the
> > link
> > and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer only.
> >
> > Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> > archived shows that you will like. http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >
> > Vince
> > Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> > Coe-Chair
> > Lead
> >
> >
> > Message -----
> > From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> > found
> > on
> > our podcast
> >
> > or archive podcast pages.
> >
> > The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >
> > The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> > night's
> > show
> > this afternoon.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Quintina
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >
> >
> >>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>right podcast. Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a
> >>clue , for example, steps,
> >> as to how to get there?
> >> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >> Thanks.
> >> Susan & Rhoda
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Vincent Chaney
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >> Marion and Joe,
> >>
> >> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >> Marion, the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide
> >> Dogs, your knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and
> >> GDU support since
> >> you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point to share for the
> >> NFB
> >> support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners into the NFB. The
> >> description
> >> of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were uplifting and positively stated.
> >> You
> >> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU. We,
> >> from
> >> the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and thank you
> >> for
> >> joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as the NAGDU
> >> President.
> >> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how, why
> >> or
> >> when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or another method.
> >> These
> >> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and good
> >> to
> >> hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working with our four
> >> legged partners.
> >> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and future
> >> topics
> >> you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have missed the live
> >> broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or through the archive
> >> link
> >> on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the link is:
> >> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your wife,
> >> my
> >> heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear partner. All
> >> God's
> >> blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of you...
> >>
> >> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >> Coe-Chair Lead _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40
> > sbcglo
> >> bal.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40c
> > omcast
> > .net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> > .net
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> > bal.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/relton30857%40cox.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:29:17 -0400
> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <002c01c9c6ad$ad05cc50$4001a8c0 at Dellbert>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Angie & listers,
> I would not have a problem with that wording, but I would have a problem
> with a blanket statement such as,
> "It is the policy of NAGDU that blind people should own their dogs
> outright."
> Susan & Rhoda
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:52 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
> Would those of you with dogs from Leader, GEB, GDB, and other schools that
> don't grant immediate ownership have a problem with a resolution
> encouraging
> the schools to reconsider these policies and to find ways to promote
> self-determination for their students? I'm just curious. A resolution
> doesn't have to state that all NFB members will only attend schools that
> grant immediate ownership of the dog at graduation.
>
> I ask because if we came up with a resolution that urged Seeing Eye to
> reconsider some policy in light of consumer preference, I could
> potentially
> support it, even though I plan to get all my future dogs from that school.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Sherri
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:07 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
> Joining the minority view, I agree. I was very pleased with my training
> experience at Leader and though having ownership does carry some weight
> and
> at the time I went to Leader, which was 2004, I owned my dog, I will
> probably go back there for my next guide dog.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> > Marion,
> > What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> > Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as policy?
> > Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers. I
> > believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> > forcing this issue.
> > JMHO.
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Marion & Martin
> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> > Susan,
> > Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> > spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> > should.
> > Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the
> > convention of the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members
> > think?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >
> >
> >> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>
> >> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >> voted on that as policy.
> >>
> >> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put
> >> it at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >> JMHO.
> >> Susan & Rhoda
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >> Hi Everyone,
> >>
> >> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> >> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>
> >> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>
> >> The next link to pick is:
> >> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >>
> >> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >> for.
> >> The
> >> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>
> >> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >> computer.
> >> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to
> >> that folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >> (Control O).
> >> Navigate
> >> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >> downloaded and press enter.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer only.
> >>
> >> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >> archived shows that you will like.
> >> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>
> >> Vince
> >> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>
> >>
> >> Message -----
> >> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >> found on our podcast
> >>
> >> or archive podcast pages.
> >>
> >> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>
> >> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >> night's show this afternoon.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Quintina
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >>
> >>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>right podcast.
> >>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for
> >>>example, steps, as to how to get there?
> >>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>> Thanks.
> >>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>
> >>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >>> Marion,
> >>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs, your
> >>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU
> >>> support since you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point
> >>> to share for the NFB support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners
> >>> into the NFB. The description of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were
> >>> uplifting and positively stated.
> >>> You
> >>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>> We, from the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and
> >>> thank you for joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as
> >>> the NAGDU President.
> >>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>> why or when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or
> >>> another method.
> >>> These
> >>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>> good to hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working
> >>> with our four legged partners.
> >>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and
> >>> future topics you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have
> >>> missed the live broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or
> >>> through the archive link on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the
> >>> link is:
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>> wife, my heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear
> >>> partner. All God's blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of
> >>> you...
> >>>
> >>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>> Coe-Chair Lead _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>> for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>> bal.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>> for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >> .net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> >> .net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >> bal.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> > n.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> > bal.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> bal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:33:49 -0400
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <49f4c52c.47c2f10a.4ae2.6016 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks for that information, Jenine. That did indeed flush out my point,
> and
> it was interesting.
>
> I agree-I was verly pleased to read about the NAGDU board meeting.
>
> I won't be in Detroit--I'll be studying for the Bar. But since the Seeing
> Eye reunion is conveniently scheduled for several weeks after the Bar, I
> plan to be there! Hope to meet some of you at that event.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:09 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
>
> Angie,
>
> The Acb ratio is usually around 2000 people attending convention with
> anywhere from 300 to 400 guide dog teams. Much of this depends on the
> venue
> as well. I expect that in 2010 in Phoenix, a number of people will choose
> to
> leave their dogs at home due to the climate. Generally, though people are
> asked to note their mobility tool n the registration, only around 150 to
> 200
> guide dog handlers do so. The actual count tends to be much higher.
>
> Hope those stats helped flesh out your point, or were just interesting.
> <grin>
>
> Conventions by their nature are going to attract only a certain percentage
> of membership from either organization. I applaud NAGDU for publicizing
> its
> board meetings and making them open to the public. I think that goes a
> long
> way toward making members feel a part of the organization.
>
> It looks as if I will be joining you all in Detroit this summer and look
> forward to it. I had a great time last year and now that I know more of
> you
> from the list, it will be fun to match voices with email.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:59:47 -0400
> From: d m gina <dmgina at samobile.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID: <20090426205947.29507.73577 at web1.serotek.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>
> I have a question for you and all,
> In my case I think I have folks who would take my dog if something
> would happen to me.
> One of the plusses I have with leader doing what they are doing, is
> that you can feel if your health went down the school would get the dog.
> So I have gone back and forth with this one in my mind.
> I do love the idea I own my dog.
> I feel as if nothing is held over my head.
> Or if someone called the school because they thought I was dreadful to
> my dog, the school could take the dog with in the two years, being their
> dog.
> I have to say that is a concern for me.
> What are some of the thoughts on this list?
> Thanks,
>
> --
> --Dar
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:12:21 -0400
> From: d m gina <dmgina at samobile.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID: <20090426211221.29507.7278 at web1.serotek.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>
> I know why it bothers me is because with and for years the dog was
> yours you had a choice, and now this is how it is and that is that.
> I have a problem with folks who treat me as if I forgot to be an adult.
> As far as a computer is concerned, I wish you the best getting a job.
> With all of the folks losing jobs, I feel it is harder for us.
> Wishing you the best.
>
> --
> --Dar
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:39:40 -0500
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <00a501c9c6b7$82cc9450$210110ac at yourfsyly0jtwn>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
> It's high time that immediate ownership of guide dogs upon graduation
> becomes the law of the land and I have no problem with condemning those
> programs that continue to retain ownership of their dogs and treating
> students and graduates the way they do. Bring on a strongly-worded
> resolution again! These schools need it!
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> I have no problem with a positively worded resolution, but I don't want
> any
> schools condemned and deplored for their ownership policy. *smile.
> Sherri
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> > Would those of you with dogs from Leader, GEB, GDB, and other schools
> > that
> > don't grant immediate ownership have a problem with a resolution
> > encouraging
> > the schools to reconsider these policies and to find ways to promote
> > self-determination for their students? I'm just curious. A resolution
> > doesn't have to state that all NFB members will only attend schools that
> > grant immediate ownership of the dog at graduation.
> >
> > I ask because if we came up with a resolution that urged Seeing Eye to
> > reconsider some policy in light of consumer preference, I could
> > potentially
> > support it, even though I plan to get all my future dogs from that
> > school.
> >
> > Angie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Sherri
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:07 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> > Joining the minority view, I agree. I was very pleased with my training
> > experience at Leader and though having ownership does carry some weight
> > and
> > at the time I went to Leader, which was 2004, I owned my dog, I will
> > probably go back there for my next guide dog.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> >
> >> Marion,
> >> What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> >> Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as policy?
> >> Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers. I
> >> believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> >> forcing
> >> this issue.
> >> JMHO.
> >> Susan
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Marion & Martin
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >> Susan,
> >> Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> >> spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> >> should.
> >> Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the convention
> >> of
> >> the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members think?
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >>
> >>> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >>> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>>
> >>> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >>> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >>> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >>> voted on that as policy.
> >>>
> >>> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put it
> >>> at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >>> JMHO.
> >>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>
> >>> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> >>> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>
> >>> The next link to pick is:
> >>> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >>>
> >>> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >>> for.
> >>> The
> >>> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>>
> >>> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >>> computer.
> >>> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >>> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >>> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >>> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to that
> >>> folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >>> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >>> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >>> (Control O).
> >>> Navigate
> >>> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >>> downloaded and press enter.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >>> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer only.
> >>>
> >>> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >>> archived shows that you will like.
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Vince
> >>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >>> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Message -----
> >>> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >>> found
> >>> on
> >>> our podcast
> >>>
> >>> or archive podcast pages.
> >>>
> >>> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>
> >>> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >>> night's
> >>> show
> >>> this afternoon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Quintina
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>>right
> >>>> podcast.
> >>>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for example,
> >>>> steps,
> >>>> as to how to get there?
> >>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>>> Thanks.
> >>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>> Behalf
> >>>> Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>>
> >>>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >>>> Marion,
> >>>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs, your
> >>>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU support
> >>>> since
> >>>> you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point to share for
> >>>> the
> >>>> NFB
> >>>> support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners into the NFB. The
> >>>> description
> >>>> of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were uplifting and positively
> >>>> stated.
> >>>> You
> >>>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>>> We,
> >>>> from
> >>>> the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and thank you
> >>>> for
> >>>> joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as the NAGDU
> >>>> President.
> >>>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>>> why
> >>>> or
> >>>> when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or another
> >>>> method.
> >>>> These
> >>>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>>> good
> >>>> to
> >>>> hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working with our
> >>>> four
> >>>> legged partners.
> >>>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and future
> >>>> topics
> >>>> you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have missed the live
> >>>> broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or through the
> >>>> archive
> >>>> link
> >>>> on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the link is:
> >>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>>> wife,
> >>>> my
> >>>> heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear partner. All
> >>>> God's
> >>>> blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of you...
> >>>>
> >>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>>> Coe-Chair
> >>>> Lead _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>> bal.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >>> .net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> >>> .net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>> bal.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> >> n.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >> bal.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> > com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 16:44:57 -0500
> From: "Elizabeth Campbell" <batescampbell at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <B35537A693C9495C84CE2BA5D50303CA at OwnerPC>
>
> Hello marionn and listers,
>
> I believe that everyone should own their dogs upon graduation from their
> respective schools. That is one of the reasons why I chose to attend the
> Seeing Eye where I have gotten two wonderful dogs.
> However, I don't think a resolution is necessary.
> I think we should devote our energy toward making sure the schools are
> providing training that will prepare the dogs and their owners to deal
> with
> the complex traffic situations we deal with.
> I'm not sure that all schools meet that criteria
>
> Before I would support an ownership resolution, I want to hear the
> schools'
> rationale for determining ownership upon graduation.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Liz and Gabe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 5:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> > Susan,
> > I suspect that there are many who do not realize that ownership is an
> > option. One school is even telling their students that their regressive,
> > custodial, paternalistic ownership policy is "the way guide dog schools
> > are going"! This is absulutely false and goes to the credibility of the
> > program.
> > To answer your question about creating policy: The NFB creates its
> > initiatives through resolutions that define our positions, guided by our
> > statement of philosophy. As a consumer advocacy organization, it is not
> > only our right but our responsibility to ensure that consumers are
> > protected. Absent ownership agreements that protect the consumer from
> > unwarranted interference by the guide dog schools, consumers risk being
> > treated unfairly and arbitrarily.
> > As for the issue of the training centers, the premise seems to be
> > that
> > there is an issue with their policies. Perhaps it would be a good idea
> > to
> > attend our Sunday evening (July 5) seminar during convention and get the
> > facts about the policies before such a decision is made.
> >
> > Fraternally,
> > Marion Gwizdal-Schoch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> >
> >> Marion,
> >> What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> >> Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as policy?
> >> Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers. I
> >> believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> >> forcing
> >> this issue.
> >> JMHO.
> >> Susan
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Marion & Martin
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >> Susan,
> >> Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> >> spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> >> should.
> >> Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the convention
> >> of
> >> the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members think?
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >>
> >>> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >>> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>>
> >>> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >>> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >>> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >>> voted on that as policy.
> >>>
> >>> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put it
> >>> at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >>> JMHO.
> >>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>
> >>> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> >>> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>
> >>> The next link to pick is:
> >>> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >>>
> >>> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >>> for.
> >>> The
> >>> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>>
> >>> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >>> computer.
> >>> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >>> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >>> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >>> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to that
> >>> folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >>> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >>> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >>> (Control O).
> >>> Navigate
> >>> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >>> downloaded and press enter.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >>> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer only.
> >>>
> >>> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >>> archived shows that you will like.
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Vince
> >>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >>> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Message -----
> >>> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >>> found
> >>> on
> >>> our podcast
> >>>
> >>> or archive podcast pages.
> >>>
> >>> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>
> >>> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >>> night's
> >>> show
> >>> this afternoon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Quintina
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>>right
> >>>> podcast.
> >>>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for example,
> >>>> steps,
> >>>> as to how to get there?
> >>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>>> Thanks.
> >>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>> Behalf
> >>>> Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>>
> >>>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >>>> Marion,
> >>>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs, your
> >>>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU support
> >>>> since
> >>>> you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point to share for
> >>>> the
> >>>> NFB
> >>>> support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners into the NFB. The
> >>>> description
> >>>> of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were uplifting and positively
> >>>> stated.
> >>>> You
> >>>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>>> We,
> >>>> from
> >>>> the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and thank you
> >>>> for
> >>>> joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as the NAGDU
> >>>> President.
> >>>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>>> why
> >>>> or
> >>>> when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or another
> >>>> method.
> >>>> These
> >>>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>>> good
> >>>> to
> >>>> hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working with our
> >>>> four
> >>>> legged partners.
> >>>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and future
> >>>> topics
> >>>> you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have missed the live
> >>>> broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or through the
> >>>> archive
> >>>> link
> >>>> on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the link is:
> >>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>>> wife,
> >>>> my
> >>>> heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear partner. All
> >>>> God's
> >>>> blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of you...
> >>>>
> >>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>>> Coe-Chair
> >>>> Lead _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>> bal.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >>> .net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> >>> .net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>> bal.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> >> n.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >> bal.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/batescampbell%40charter.net
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:55:37 -0400
> From: d m gina <dmgina at samobile.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID: <20090426215537.4127.79998 at web1.serotek.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>
> I feel if paper work is signed to own the dog, then you sign paper work
> to give the dog back to the school.
> This is what I did with some of the dogs I got from leader.
> I signed paper work when I sent a dog back to GDf as well.
> I feel the dog shows how they are feeling with the person in front of
> others.
> They look afraid or they just look uninterested.
> I give folks permition to write to my school if I am doing something
> wrong.
> Because if I feel I am doing rite, I have nothing to be afraid of.
> I must say here though,
> I felt I did rite with leader, and they still believed all of the hog
> wash sent to them, where I had no say in the matter.
> Yes years have gone by, but the pain is still there.
> that an outsideer has more of a pull than I the owner of any dog.
> I am sure this will bother me for the rest of my life.
> Yes I moved forward, and yes I have a wonderful dog.
> and yes I love the school who gave me the dog.
> I just don't feel I had a chance in a say, and to be told you are never
> allowed on our campus again.
> Makes me feel as if I did something truly wrong.
> I didn't.
> I was as fare with the instructor as I could be.
> Also the part on paper, have you been to other schools?
> If you went to a school now twenty years ago,
> why would it be important to say I went here twenty years ago.
> The school has no clue how you are doing, what you have been doing all
> your life, and the list goes on.
> I need it explained why if I wwent to many schools why I have to share
> how many and why I left.
> I truly don't feel it is any business of any school.
> Unless you are just school hopping and want to see how many schools accept
> you.
> I am pleased I moved on, and we the team are doing well.
> so that is my story for the day, and I am stuck with it smile.
>
> --
> --Dar
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:58:28 -0400
> From: d m gina <dmgina at samobile.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID: <20090426215828.4127.49054 at web1.serotek.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>
> Because it is nagdu saying it, and the folks who are with A C B
> wouldn't get fare treatment/
> Or because it is with the Federation?
> Just some thoughts.
> I love the idea that nagdu would be willing to say to the schools,
> ownership is what is needed.
> We will do our best to get this to happen?
> then will they put on an applocation "if you are a member of nagdu you
> can't come here?
> I don't think that could happen, but you know these days anything is
> possible.
> Just some thoughts.
>
> --
> --Dar
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:16:06 -0400
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <49f4dd25.04c2f10a.6e2d.72d6 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Jenine,
>
> Excellent post. I certainly don't presume to know how I'd handle things if
> I
> were responsible for a guide-dog school. The reason I think ownership upon
> graduation is the best way to go partly has to do with a cost-benefit
> analysis. In his interview, Marion mentioned that some people are less
> likely to seek help with problems if they are afraid the dog will be taken
> away. Since these people are making a choice to keep quiet about
> difficulties, we probably have no idea how many such people there are. But
> clearly this is a recipe for disaster. I would argue that the abuse of a
> few
> dogs is, regrettably, a necessary "cost" to guide-dog mobility.
>
> That probably made me sound heartless. I doo think that all appropriate
> measures should be taken to minimize these incidents, but nothing will
> ever
> completely eliminate them. The incident with the Leader Dog happened
> around
> the time I got Glaze. I also applied to Leader back then, and Leader asked
> me for six references. So this man from PA was probably able to find six
> people who could vouch for him, six people who were willing to say, in
> writing, that he was a good candidate for a guide dog.
>
> I think the problem of people not returning dogs when they don't work out
> is
> similarly an unavoidable cost of guide-dog mobility. Maybe the schools
> could
> find ways to really emphasize the worth of these dogs and to encourage
> grads
> (without coercion) that returning a mismatched dog is in the best
> interests
> of all concerned. (On the other hand, I do think there are some instances
> when a grad is in a better position to judge whether or not a dog should
> be
> re-evaluated. But that's a whole nother kettle o' fish, and I ain't
> touching
> it tonight.)
>
> In this country, there are thousands of fatalities from automobile
> accidents
> each year; yet we continue to allow cars to be on the road because the
> cost-benefit analysis weighs in favor of maintaining the system. We pass
> laws to minimize traffic accidents, but we recognize that some people are
> going to be killed each year, no matter what we do. I guess I view
> ownership
> in the same way. If providing ownership at graduation would make it more
> likely for struggling handlers to seek help, then it is probably worth
> doing, even with its associated "costs." I'm sure the schools do conduct
> some form of cost-benefit analysis, even if they don't couch it in those
> terms.
>
> Again, great post.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
> Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I am
> very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
> graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
> schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon
> graduation.
> I know GDF did so.
>
> That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some type
> of
> custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog and
> hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
> involved?
>
> I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
> this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide
> dog.
> Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
>
> Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused their
> dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope that
> no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
> enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
> Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd
> wager
> do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be
> taken
> away.
>
> This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
> graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
> killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was, how did
> this
> person get a dog to begin with?
>
> That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
> killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before the
> incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from
> their
> donors and others over the incident though.
>
> Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally,
> I'll
> reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
>
> It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
> "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection from
> me, why have I been accepted for training?
>
> That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle situations
> in
> which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally owned?
>
> Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we
> would
> consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the animal
> control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse allegations,
> even when they are legitimate.
>
> Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog is
> too
> much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as a
> child and that may not be kindly.
>
> What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint about a
> grad?
>
> We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
> reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage
> though
> of complaints that are valid.
>
> How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if you
> found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
>
> I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that the
> schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on that
> one. <grin>
>
> >From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may
> >cause
> policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
> returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of these
> dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or another.
> Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. Yet,
> if
> the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she
> wants.
> Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed
> with
> another person.
>
> How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
> something we all hope happens but something that can change for any team
> over time?
>
> Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing
> questions
> as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the
> desk.
> Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes those
> people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:43:36 -0400
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <059401c9c6c0$70e7cdf0$6501a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Angie,
> Thanks for your support and for listening to the interview. Joe said
> on
> the chapter Presidents' list that there were more than 500 listeners, so
> the
> word about NAGDU got out far and wide! We need to find these creative ways
> to spread the word!
> As for the statisttics about guide dog use, I wasn't the one who came
> up
> with the figure; that was Joe's doing! I would need to listen to the
> interview again to hear how it went, but when Joe threw out that figure, I
> think I did a quick math problem in my head, thought about the counts at
> convention and said, "That sounds about right!"
> I remember we had this discussion on the list and it seemed that Ed
> Eames gave us a figure. Now, perhaps there is a personal issue with him
> (in
> the interest of full disclosure), but I don't know how accurate his
> figures
> are, either. I remember hearing somewhere that the figure was much lower,
> too - something like 2 - 3% - but I'm not even sure where that comes from.
> In any case, I think one point is that a majority of blind people do not
> use
> guide dogs. I wonder if a majority even use white canes! (smile)
> Again, thank you for your support and your involvement in NAGDU. have
> an
> awesome week!
>
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 2:31 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
>
>
> > Hi Marion,
> >
> >
> >
> > I just listened to your excellent initerview on Through Our Eyes.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a question. You mentioned that approximately 5 to 7% of blind
> > people
> > use guide dogs. Can you cite the source for this statistic? I ask
> > because
> > all other sources I have seen give a much lower figure-somewhere around
> > 1%.
> > Does the statistic you cite include all blind people, or only those who
> > use
> > some form of mobility aid other than sighted guide?
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, I'm not sure how many conclusions we can draw based on the number
> > of
> > teams in attendance at national convention. I think that the group who
> > attends national convention is not likely to be an accurate
> > representation
> > of the demographic of all blind people. I think the group at convention
> > probably has a higher rate of guide-dog use than blind people as a
> > whole.
> > Also, I would guess that the number of guide-dog teams at ACB's
> > convention
> > is even higher. Perhaps Jenine or someone else on list can speak to this
> > point.
> >
> >
> >
> > Again, thanks for representing NAGDU so eloquently.
> >
> >
> >
> > Angie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:54:40 -0400
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <05a301c9c6c1$fbd2be10$6501a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=response
>
> Sherri,
> First of all, I'm not a "condemn and deplore" type of person! (smile)
> The schools have the right to establish any policy they wish while we have
> the right to disagree with that policy and work for change. I do believe
> that the logic for Leader changing its ownership policy is severely flawed
> and - if what I have been told by a couple of recent graduates is true -
> their assertion that "this is the way most schools are going" raises more
> questions than answers. Furthermore, I have never heard an argument for
> not
> transferring ownership that seems sound to me! It smacks of paternalism
> and
> I wonder what schools who do not think blind people can adequately care
> for
> their dogs think of our abilities to care for our children!
> I am also working on another resolution encouraging state affiliates
> to
> work on legislation criminalizing access denials, as is so in Florida,
> Georgia, Illinois, and a few other states. If I do this, the ownership
> resolution would be put on the back burner, perhaps to be introduced
> during
> next year's convention.
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> >I have no problem with a positively worded resolution, but I don't want
> >any
> >schools condemned and deplored for their ownership policy. *smile.
> > Sherri
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> >
> >> Would those of you with dogs from Leader, GEB, GDB, and other schools
> >> that
> >> don't grant immediate ownership have a problem with a resolution
> >> encouraging
> >> the schools to reconsider these policies and to find ways to promote
> >> self-determination for their students? I'm just curious. A resolution
> >> doesn't have to state that all NFB members will only attend schools
> >> that
> >> grant immediate ownership of the dog at graduation.
> >>
> >> I ask because if we came up with a resolution that urged Seeing Eye to
> >> reconsider some policy in light of consumer preference, I could
> >> potentially
> >> support it, even though I plan to get all my future dogs from that
> >> school.
> >>
> >> Angie
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Sherri
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:07 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >> Joining the minority view, I agree. I was very pleased with my training
> >> experience at Leader and though having ownership does carry some weight
> >> and
> >> at the time I went to Leader, which was 2004, I owned my dog, I will
> >> probably go back there for my next guide dog.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >>
> >>> Marion,
> >>> What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> >>> Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as
> >>> policy?
> >>> Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers. I
> >>> believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> >>> forcing
> >>> this issue.
> >>> JMHO.
> >>> Susan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Marion & Martin
> >>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>>
> >>> Susan,
> >>> Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> >>> spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> >>> should.
> >>> Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the
> >>> convention
> >>> of
> >>> the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members think?
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> >>> Users'"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >>>> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>>>
> >>>> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >>>> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >>>> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >>>> voted on that as policy.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put
> >>>> it
> >>>> at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >>>> JMHO.
> >>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> >>>> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>>
> >>>> The next link to pick is:
> >>>> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >>>>
> >>>> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >>>> for.
> >>>> The
> >>>> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>>>
> >>>> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >>>> computer.
> >>>> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >>>> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >>>> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >>>> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to
> >>>> that
> >>>> folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >>>> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >>>> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >>>> (Control O).
> >>>> Navigate
> >>>> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >>>> downloaded and press enter.
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >>>> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer
> >>>> only.
> >>>>
> >>>> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >>>> archived shows that you will like.
> >>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Vince
> >>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >>>> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Message -----
> >>>> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >>>> found
> >>>> on
> >>>> our podcast
> >>>>
> >>>> or archive podcast pages.
> >>>>
> >>>> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>>
> >>>> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >>>> night's
> >>>> show
> >>>> this afternoon.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Quintina
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> >>>> Users'"
> >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>>>right
> >>>>> podcast.
> >>>>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for
> >>>>> example,
> >>>>> steps,
> >>>>> as to how to get there?
> >>>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>>> Behalf
> >>>>> Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >>>>> Marion,
> >>>>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs, your
> >>>>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU
> >>>>> support
> >>>>> since
> >>>>> you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point to share for
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> NFB
> >>>>> support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners into the NFB. The
> >>>>> description
> >>>>> of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were uplifting and positively
> >>>>> stated.
> >>>>> You
> >>>>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>>>> We,
> >>>>> from
> >>>>> the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and thank
> >>>>> you
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as the NAGDU
> >>>>> President.
> >>>>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>>>> why
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or another
> >>>>> method.
> >>>>> These
> >>>>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>>>> good
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working with our
> >>>>> four
> >>>>> legged partners.
> >>>>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and
> >>>>> future
> >>>>> topics
> >>>>> you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have missed the live
> >>>>> broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or through the
> >>>>> archive
> >>>>> link
> >>>>> on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the link is:
> >>>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>>>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>>>> wife,
> >>>>> my
> >>>>> heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear partner. All
> >>>>> God's
> >>>>> blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of you...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>>>> Coe-Chair
> >>>>> Lead _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> nagdu:
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>>> bal.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> nagdu:
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >>>> .net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> >>>> .net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>> bal.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> >>> n.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>> bal.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> >> com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:55:05 -0400
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <F97FA0FA71F84658AC2C2F4B27CD0084 at dragonslayer>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Angie,
>
> I wish that it was as simple as granting people ownership for them to feel
> as if they could contact the school if they have issues.
>
> Sadly, I talk to people on a regular basis who know they own their dogs
> but
> still are afraid to contact the school because they fear having the dog
> taken away. I explain that we cannot take their dogs away without the
> intervention of an outside party, nor would we want to do so.
>
> I think some people are more embarrassed than afraid of the big bad
> school,
> and I completely understand that one.
>
> I think maybe we all, school staff included, need to explore what we think
> ownership means. There's a gravity to ownership, a responsibility if you
> will, that says that if the school is going to trust that I am an adult
> and
> that I am capable of caring for and working with this dog, I should then
> make every effort to do so, if not exactly as I was taught, then within
> good
> practices at least.
>
> The sad part is that there are a number of people, and I'd love to survey
> this one, who allow their dogs to become overweight, don't keep up on
> vaccinations or grooming, don't follow proper working etiquette, i.e.,
> allowing scavenging, barking in harness, etc.
>
> It puts me in mind of that old saying our parents loved, or at least mine
> did.
>
> "If you want to be treated like an adult, act like one and treat your
> stuff
> like one." OK, that last part was added by me. I'm sure my parents said
> something akin to it though when I neglected things I'd sworn I'd take
> care
> of.
>
> I'm not saying everyone neglects their dogs, but sadly, more people do
> than
> we really want to admit as other handlers. My spouse and I have differing
> views of in harness etiquette and I'd say that some of his control issues
> with his dog are a direct result of his views. <grin> There's a pretty
> wide
> spectrum of behavior and conditions before you get to neglect or misuse,
> or
> even abuse, but still, it hurts to hear on one hand that people want to be
> thought of and treated as adults, then to deal with them when their dogs
> are
> extremely overweight, when they are having control issues that might have
> been less or non-existent had they been doing things as they'd been
> taught.
>
> Maybe more authority needs to be exercised during class or training in any
> venue, about dog care and why it's bad to allow the dog to get fat, etc.
> Agencies these days in general are really trying to be more respectful but
> some things maybe need a little firmer or more strident explanation? Just
> trying to figure out what would help cement in people's brains that yes,
> you
> are an adult and yes we trust you to own this dog outright, but that means
> we also expect that you will keep the dog in good condition.
>
> All of my presumptions in this discussion assume that both the person in
> question and the school, particularly the school, are behaving above
> board,
> admitting to problems and working for the betterment of the team. We all
> know that doesn't always happen in the best of schools.
>
> Fascinating discussion though.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:33:32 -0400
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <05b401c9c6c7$69ffc090$6501a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Jenine,
> You raise some excellent points! I hope I can respond to most of them.
> First of all, the incident in which the man in Pennsylvania was,
> indeed,
> cited by Ron Haneline when i questioned Leader's change in the ownership
> policy. My question on this would be, "How long had this guy had his dog?"
> and "Was this his first dog?" It is my understanding that he had had his
> dog
> for more than two years and it was his second. I'm not sure if this is so
> or
> not, just hearsay!
> As the NFB representative to Southeastern Guide Dogs Graduate advisory
> Committee, I was the lone voice on the Council asking for the change in
> the
> ownership policy. The objections were raised about how to handle charges
> of
> abuse or neglect. Let me say that, to the best of my knowledge, there is
> no
> evidence to suggest that blind people are more likely to abuse an animal
> than the sighted public, contrary to the assertion by the Guide Horse
> Foundation and supported by a link to the National Institute on mental
> health (NIMH) that go nowhere! There are protections in place to deal with
> these issues and, I believe, these laws are adequate. I believe that the
> only way a guide dog school should be able to repossess a dog is if there
> is
> objective, third-party evidence of abuse.
> I would like to write more on this subject and am planning an article
> for the Braille Monitor concerning ownership policies. For now, I will let
> it rest at this and get ready for the NAGDU Board of Directors meeting.
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
>
> > Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I
> > am
> > very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
> > graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
> > schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon
> > graduation.
> > I know GDF did so.
> >
> > That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some
> > type
> > of
> > custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog
> > and
> > hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
> > involved?
> >
> > I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
> > this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide
> > dog.
> > Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
> >
> > Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused their
> > dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope
> > that
> > no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
> > enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
> > Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd
> > wager
> > do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be
> > taken
> > away.
> >
> > This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
> > graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
> > killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was, how did
> > this
> > person get a dog to begin with?
> >
> > That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
> > killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before
> > the
> > incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from
> > their
> > donors and others over the incident though.
> >
> > Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally,
> > I'll
> > reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
> >
> > It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
> > "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection
> > from
> > me, why have I been accepted for training?
> >
> > That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle
> > situations
> > in
> > which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally owned?
> >
> > Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we
> > would
> > consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the
> > animal
> > control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse
> > allegations,
> > even when they are legitimate.
> >
> > Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog is
> > too
> > much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as
> > a
> > child and that may not be kindly.
> >
> > What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint about
> > a
> > grad?
> >
> > We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
> > reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage
> > though
> > of complaints that are valid.
> >
> > How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if
> > you
> > found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
> >
> > I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that
> > the
> > schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on that
> > one. <grin>
> >
> >>From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may
> >>cause
> > policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
> > returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of these
> > dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or another.
> > Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. Yet,
> > if
> > the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she
> > wants.
> > Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed
> > with
> > another person.
> >
> > How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
> > something we all hope happens but something that can change for any team
> > over time?
> >
> > Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing
> > questions
> > as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the
> > desk.
> > Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes
> > those
> > people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
> > Jenine Stanley
> > jeninems at wowway.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:57:57 -0400
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <49f4f504.04c2f10a.6b12.ffffbc65 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Marion,
>
> I have another question. Since "paternalism" generally involves some
> benevolent intent, would you still argue that these policies are
> paternalistic? I would agree that they are custodial, but I don't know
> about
> paternalistic.
>
> Perhaps this is a distinction without a difference.
>
> Best,
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 6:55 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
> Sherri,
> First of all, I'm not a "condemn and deplore" type of person! (smile)
> The schools have the right to establish any policy they wish while we have
> the right to disagree with that policy and work for change. I do believe
> that the logic for Leader changing its ownership policy is severely flawed
> and - if what I have been told by a couple of recent graduates is true -
> their assertion that "this is the way most schools are going" raises more
> questions than answers. Furthermore, I have never heard an argument for
> not
> transferring ownership that seems sound to me! It smacks of paternalism
> and
> I wonder what schools who do not think blind people can adequately care
> for
> their dogs think of our abilities to care for our children!
> I am also working on another resolution encouraging state affiliates
> to
> work on legislation criminalizing access denials, as is so in Florida,
> Georgia, Illinois, and a few other states. If I do this, the ownership
> resolution would be put on the back burner, perhaps to be introduced
> during
> next year's convention.
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> >I have no problem with a positively worded resolution, but I don't want
> >any
>
> >schools condemned and deplored for their ownership policy. *smile.
> > Sherri
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> >
> >> Would those of you with dogs from Leader, GEB, GDB, and other schools
> >> that
> >> don't grant immediate ownership have a problem with a resolution
> >> encouraging
> >> the schools to reconsider these policies and to find ways to promote
> >> self-determination for their students? I'm just curious. A resolution
> >> doesn't have to state that all NFB members will only attend schools
> >> that
> >> grant immediate ownership of the dog at graduation.
> >>
> >> I ask because if we came up with a resolution that urged Seeing Eye to
> >> reconsider some policy in light of consumer preference, I could
> >> potentially
> >> support it, even though I plan to get all my future dogs from that
> >> school.
> >>
> >> Angie
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Sherri
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:07 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >> Joining the minority view, I agree. I was very pleased with my training
> >> experience at Leader and though having ownership does carry some weight
> >> and
> >> at the time I went to Leader, which was 2004, I owned my dog, I will
> >> probably go back there for my next guide dog.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >>
> >>> Marion,
> >>> What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> >>> Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as
> >>> policy?
> >>> Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers. I
> >>> believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> >>> forcing
> >>> this issue.
> >>> JMHO.
> >>> Susan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Marion & Martin
> >>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>>
> >>> Susan,
> >>> Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> >>> spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> >>> should.
> >>> Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the
> >>> convention
> >>> of
> >>> the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members think?
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> >>> Users'"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >>>> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>>>
> >>>> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >>>> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >>>> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >>>> voted on that as policy.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put
> >>>> it
> >>>> at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >>>> JMHO.
> >>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> >>>> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>>
> >>>> The next link to pick is:
> >>>> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >>>>
> >>>> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >>>> for.
> >>>> The
> >>>> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>>>
> >>>> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >>>> computer.
> >>>> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >>>> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >>>> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >>>> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to
> >>>> that
> >>>> folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >>>> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >>>> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >>>> (Control O).
> >>>> Navigate
> >>>> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >>>> downloaded and press enter.
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >>>> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer
> >>>> only.
> >>>>
> >>>> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >>>> archived shows that you will like.
> >>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Vince
> >>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >>>> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Message -----
> >>>> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >>>> found
> >>>> on
> >>>> our podcast
> >>>>
> >>>> or archive podcast pages.
> >>>>
> >>>> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>>
> >>>> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >>>> night's
> >>>> show
> >>>> this afternoon.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Quintina
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> >>>> Users'"
> >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>>>right
> >>>>> podcast.
> >>>>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for
> >>>>> example,
> >>>>> steps,
> >>>>> as to how to get there?
> >>>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>>> Behalf
> >>>>> Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >>>>> Marion,
> >>>>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs, your
> >>>>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU
> >>>>> support
> >>>>> since
> >>>>> you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point to share for
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> NFB
> >>>>> support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners into the NFB. The
> >>>>> description
> >>>>> of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were uplifting and positively
> >>>>> stated.
> >>>>> You
> >>>>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>>>> We,
> >>>>> from
> >>>>> the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and thank
> >>>>> you
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as the NAGDU
> >>>>> President.
> >>>>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>>>> why
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or another
> >>>>> method.
> >>>>> These
> >>>>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>>>> good
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working with our
> >>>>> four
> >>>>> legged partners.
> >>>>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and
> >>>>> future
> >>>>> topics
> >>>>> you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have missed the live
> >>>>> broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or through the
> >>>>> archive
> >>>>> link
> >>>>> on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the link is:
> >>>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>>>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>>>> wife,
> >>>>> my
> >>>>> heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear partner. All
> >>>>> God's
> >>>>> blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of you...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>>>> Coe-Chair
> >>>>> Lead _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> nagdu:
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>>> bal.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> nagdu:
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >>>> .net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> >>>> .net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>> bal.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> >>> n.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>> bal.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> >> com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:00:16 -0400
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <49f4f58f.02c3f10a.5db1.ffff9f1a at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Marion,
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I know I have seen the lower figures in
> other
> places as well--I believe on the GDB web site, but I'd have to go check.
> And
> you did a great job on the interview!
>
> Angie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 6:44 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
>
> Angie,
> Thanks for your support and for listening to the interview. Joe said
> on
> the chapter Presidents' list that there were more than 500 listeners, so
> the
>
> word about NAGDU got out far and wide! We need to find these creative ways
> to spread the word!
> As for the statisttics about guide dog use, I wasn't the one who came
> up
>
> with the figure; that was Joe's doing! I would need to listen to the
> interview again to hear how it went, but when Joe threw out that figure, I
> think I did a quick math problem in my head, thought about the counts at
> convention and said, "That sounds about right!"
> I remember we had this discussion on the list and it seemed that Ed
> Eames gave us a figure. Now, perhaps there is a personal issue with him
> (in
> the interest of full disclosure), but I don't know how accurate his
> figures
> are, either. I remember hearing somewhere that the figure was much lower,
> too - something like 2 - 3% - but I'm not even sure where that comes from.
> In any case, I think one point is that a majority of blind people do not
> use
>
> guide dogs. I wonder if a majority even use white canes! (smile)
> Again, thank you for your support and your involvement in NAGDU. have
> an
>
> awesome week!
>
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 2:31 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
>
>
> > Hi Marion,
> >
> >
> >
> > I just listened to your excellent initerview on Through Our Eyes.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a question. You mentioned that approximately 5 to 7% of blind
> > people
> > use guide dogs. Can you cite the source for this statistic? I ask
> > because
> > all other sources I have seen give a much lower figure-somewhere around
> > 1%.
> > Does the statistic you cite include all blind people, or only those who
> > use
> > some form of mobility aid other than sighted guide?
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, I'm not sure how many conclusions we can draw based on the number
> > of
> > teams in attendance at national convention. I think that the group who
> > attends national convention is not likely to be an accurate
> > representation
> > of the demographic of all blind people. I think the group at convention
> > probably has a higher rate of guide-dog use than blind people as a
> > whole.
> > Also, I would guess that the number of guide-dog teams at ACB's
> > convention
> > is even higher. Perhaps Jenine or someone else on list can speak to this
> > point.
> >
> >
> >
> > Again, thanks for representing NAGDU so eloquently.
> >
> >
> >
> > Angie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:05:36 -0400
> From: "Danielle Nicole Larsen" <larsen75 at students.rowan.edu>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAALEpennkP4RGtxUvvOxJvEnCgAAAEAAAAMhdAjIA3MJEqUoJhdPE0aoBAAAAAA==@students.rowan.edu>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Marion and Everyone:
> I did a quick bat of research and uncovered the majority of places do cite
> the statstic 2 - 3 percent. I found this number not only from the website
> for Guiding Eyes but also several other websites discussing basic facts
> about the blind and how they travel. One website cited that 35 percent of
> blind or VI people travelled with a cane and that 2-3 percent use guide
> dogs
> (the remaining individuals are those who are partial and do no t use a
> mobility device)
> -Danielle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 6:44 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
>
> Angie,
> Thanks for your support and for listening to the interview. Joe said
> on
> the chapter Presidents' list that there were more than 500 listeners, so
> the
>
> word about NAGDU got out far and wide! We need to find these creative ways
> to spread the word!
> As for the statisttics about guide dog use, I wasn't the one who came
> up
>
> with the figure; that was Joe's doing! I would need to listen to the
> interview again to hear how it went, but when Joe threw out that figure, I
> think I did a quick math problem in my head, thought about the counts at
> convention and said, "That sounds about right!"
> I remember we had this discussion on the list and it seemed that Ed
> Eames gave us a figure. Now, perhaps there is a personal issue with him
> (in
> the interest of full disclosure), but I don't know how accurate his
> figures
> are, either. I remember hearing somewhere that the figure was much lower,
> too - something like 2 - 3% - but I'm not even sure where that comes from.
> In any case, I think one point is that a majority of blind people do not
> use
>
> guide dogs. I wonder if a majority even use white canes! (smile)
> Again, thank you for your support and your involvement in NAGDU. have
> an
>
> awesome week!
>
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 2:31 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Statistics on Guide Dog use
>
>
> > Hi Marion,
> >
> >
> >
> > I just listened to your excellent initerview on Through Our Eyes.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a question. You mentioned that approximately 5 to 7% of blind
> > people
> > use guide dogs. Can you cite the source for this statistic? I ask
> > because
> > all other sources I have seen give a much lower figure-somewhere around
> > 1%.
> > Does the statistic you cite include all blind people, or only those who
> > use
> > some form of mobility aid other than sighted guide?
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, I'm not sure how many conclusions we can draw based on the number
> > of
> > teams in attendance at national convention. I think that the group who
> > attends national convention is not likely to be an accurate
> > representation
> > of the demographic of all blind people. I think the group at convention
> > probably has a higher rate of guide-dog use than blind people as a
> > whole.
> > Also, I would guess that the number of guide-dog teams at ACB's
> > convention
> > is even higher. Perhaps Jenine or someone else on list can speak to this
> > point.
> >
> >
> >
> > Again, thanks for representing NAGDU so eloquently.
> >
> >
> >
> > Angie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/larsen75%40students.r
> owan.edu
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:10:07 -0400
> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <001801c9c6cc$86fb8b70$4001a8c0 at Dellbert>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Sorry, I don't buy the thing about people not seeking help because they
> are
> afraid the school will take the dog away.
> Hopefully, I would have chosen a school I felt I could work with. A
> school
> I feel afraid will yank the dog without working with me is a school I
> would
> not want to attend.
> Admittedly, a first-timer might feel somewhat intimidated, but I think we
> all want guide dogs that will work for us.
> My school offers ownership after two years, and I'm fine with that.
> This gives the school the freedom to retrain a mismatched dog, which I
> think
> is only fair.
> Personally, I would rather we spend our time and energy making sure all
> schools give quality traffic training.
> JMHO,
> Susan & Rhoda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 6:16 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
> Hi Jenine,
>
> Excellent post. I certainly don't presume to know how I'd handle things if
> I
> were responsible for a guide-dog school. The reason I think ownership upon
> graduation is the best way to go partly has to do with a cost-benefit
> analysis. In his interview, Marion mentioned that some people are less
> likely to seek help with problems if they are afraid the dog will be taken
> away. Since these people are making a choice to keep quiet about
> difficulties, we probably have no idea how many such people there are. But
> clearly this is a recipe for disaster. I would argue that the abuse of a
> few
> dogs is, regrettably, a necessary "cost" to guide-dog mobility.
>
> That probably made me sound heartless. I doo think that all appropriate
> measures should be taken to minimize these incidents, but nothing will
> ever
> completely eliminate them. The incident with the Leader Dog happened
> around
> the time I got Glaze. I also applied to Leader back then, and Leader asked
> me for six references. So this man from PA was probably able to find six
> people who could vouch for him, six people who were willing to say, in
> writing, that he was a good candidate for a guide dog.
>
> I think the problem of people not returning dogs when they don't work out
> is
> similarly an unavoidable cost of guide-dog mobility. Maybe the schools
> could
> find ways to really emphasize the worth of these dogs and to encourage
> grads
> (without coercion) that returning a mismatched dog is in the best
> interests
> of all concerned. (On the other hand, I do think there are some instances
> when a grad is in a better position to judge whether or not a dog should
> be
> re-evaluated. But that's a whole nother kettle o' fish, and I ain't
> touching
> it tonight.)
>
> In this country, there are thousands of fatalities from automobile
> accidents
> each year; yet we continue to allow cars to be on the road because the
> cost-benefit analysis weighs in favor of maintaining the system. We pass
> laws to minimize traffic accidents, but we recognize that some people are
> going to be killed each year, no matter what we do. I guess I view
> ownership
> in the same way. If providing ownership at graduation would make it more
> likely for struggling handlers to seek help, then it is probably worth
> doing, even with its associated "costs." I'm sure the schools do conduct
> some form of cost-benefit analysis, even if they don't couch it in those
> terms.
>
> Again, great post.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
> Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I am
> very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
> graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
> schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon
> graduation.
> I know GDF did so.
>
> That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some type
> of
> custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog and
> hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
> involved?
>
> I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
> this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide
> dog.
> Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
>
> Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused their
> dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope that
> no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
> enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
> Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd
> wager
> do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be
> taken
> away.
>
> This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
> graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
> killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was, how did
> this
> person get a dog to begin with?
>
> That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
> killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before the
> incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from
> their
> donors and others over the incident though.
>
> Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally,
> I'll
> reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
>
> It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
> "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection from
> me, why have I been accepted for training?
>
> That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle situations
> in
> which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally owned?
>
> Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we
> would
> consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the animal
> control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse allegations,
> even when they are legitimate.
>
> Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog is
> too
> much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as a
> child and that may not be kindly.
>
> What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint about a
> grad?
>
> We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
> reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage
> though
> of complaints that are valid.
>
> How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if you
> found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
>
> I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that the
> schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on that
> one. <grin>
>
> >From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may
> >cause
> policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
> returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of these
> dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or another.
> Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. Yet,
> if
> the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she
> wants.
> Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed
> with
> another person.
>
> How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
> something we all hope happens but something that can change for any team
> over time?
>
> Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing
> questions
> as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the
> desk.
> Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes those
> people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> bal.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:03:39 -0400
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <49f5046a.c5c2f10a.606e.ffff9080 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Susan,
>
> I understand what you are saying. But I know of instances where people
> have
> chosen not to contact their school about problems until they had ownership
> of the dog. Perhaps it's not logical, but it does happen.
>
>
> I think Jenine made some good points, too, that people might choose not to
> cnotact their school for other reasons, including embarrassment. Sadly,
> people do not always approach this whole issue logically.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of sblanjones11
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:10 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
> Sorry, I don't buy the thing about people not seeking help because they
> are
> afraid the school will take the dog away.
> Hopefully, I would have chosen a school I felt I could work with. A
> school
> I feel afraid will yank the dog without working with me is a school I
> would
> not want to attend.
> Admittedly, a first-timer might feel somewhat intimidated, but I think we
> all want guide dogs that will work for us.
> My school offers ownership after two years, and I'm fine with that.
> This gives the school the freedom to retrain a mismatched dog, which I
> think
> is only fair.
> Personally, I would rather we spend our time and energy making sure all
> schools give quality traffic training.
> JMHO,
> Susan & Rhoda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 6:16 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
> Hi Jenine,
>
> Excellent post. I certainly don't presume to know how I'd handle things if
> I
> were responsible for a guide-dog school. The reason I think ownership upon
> graduation is the best way to go partly has to do with a cost-benefit
> analysis. In his interview, Marion mentioned that some people are less
> likely to seek help with problems if they are afraid the dog will be taken
> away. Since these people are making a choice to keep quiet about
> difficulties, we probably have no idea how many such people there are. But
> clearly this is a recipe for disaster. I would argue that the abuse of a
> few
> dogs is, regrettably, a necessary "cost" to guide-dog mobility.
>
> That probably made me sound heartless. I doo think that all appropriate
> measures should be taken to minimize these incidents, but nothing will
> ever
> completely eliminate them. The incident with the Leader Dog happened
> around
> the time I got Glaze. I also applied to Leader back then, and Leader asked
> me for six references. So this man from PA was probably able to find six
> people who could vouch for him, six people who were willing to say, in
> writing, that he was a good candidate for a guide dog.
>
> I think the problem of people not returning dogs when they don't work out
> is
> similarly an unavoidable cost of guide-dog mobility. Maybe the schools
> could
> find ways to really emphasize the worth of these dogs and to encourage
> grads
> (without coercion) that returning a mismatched dog is in the best
> interests
> of all concerned. (On the other hand, I do think there are some instances
> when a grad is in a better position to judge whether or not a dog should
> be
> re-evaluated. But that's a whole nother kettle o' fish, and I ain't
> touching
> it tonight.)
>
> In this country, there are thousands of fatalities from automobile
> accidents
> each year; yet we continue to allow cars to be on the road because the
> cost-benefit analysis weighs in favor of maintaining the system. We pass
> laws to minimize traffic accidents, but we recognize that some people are
> going to be killed each year, no matter what we do. I guess I view
> ownership
> in the same way. If providing ownership at graduation would make it more
> likely for struggling handlers to seek help, then it is probably worth
> doing, even with its associated "costs." I'm sure the schools do conduct
> some form of cost-benefit analysis, even if they don't couch it in those
> terms.
>
> Again, great post.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
> Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I am
> very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
> graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
> schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon
> graduation.
> I know GDF did so.
>
> That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some type
> of
> custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog and
> hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
> involved?
>
> I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
> this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide
> dog.
> Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
>
> Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused their
> dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope that
> no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
> enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
> Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd
> wager
> do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be
> taken
> away.
>
> This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
> graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
> killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was, how did
> this
> person get a dog to begin with?
>
> That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
> killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before the
> incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from
> their
> donors and others over the incident though.
>
> Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally,
> I'll
> reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
>
> It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
> "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection from
> me, why have I been accepted for training?
>
> That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle situations
> in
> which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally owned?
>
> Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we
> would
> consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the animal
> control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse allegations,
> even when they are legitimate.
>
> Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog is
> too
> much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as a
> child and that may not be kindly.
>
> What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint about a
> grad?
>
> We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
> reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage
> though
> of complaints that are valid.
>
> How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if you
> found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
>
> I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that the
> schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on that
> one. <grin>
>
> >From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may
> >cause
> policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
> returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of these
> dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or another.
> Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. Yet,
> if
> the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she
> wants.
> Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed
> with
> another person.
>
> How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
> something we all hope happens but something that can change for any team
> over time?
>
> Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing
> questions
> as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the
> desk.
> Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes those
> people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> bal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 22:13:43 -0400
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <4A0BF461FFB64E9F80AF8CE3F3385E4E at DCB3VNJ1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Janine, I totally agree that your points are very well-taken. for most
> people, ownership of the dog is probably a good thing, but there are those
> people. Then you have to consider that most guide dog schools operate and
> exist because of the donations of private entities. Therefore, looking at
> the issue from both sides of the desk is a valid and worthwhile thing to
> do.
>
> Sherri
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
>
> > Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I
> > am
> > very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
> > graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
> > schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon
> > graduation.
> > I know GDF did so.
> >
> > That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some
> > type
> > of
> > custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog
> > and
> > hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
> > involved?
> >
> > I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
> > this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide
> > dog.
> > Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
> >
> > Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused their
> > dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope
> > that
> > no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
> > enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
> > Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd
> > wager
> > do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be
> > taken
> > away.
> >
> > This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
> > graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
> > killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was, how did
> > this
> > person get a dog to begin with?
> >
> > That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
> > killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before
> > the
> > incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from
> > their
> > donors and others over the incident though.
> >
> > Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally,
> > I'll
> > reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
> >
> > It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
> > "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection
> > from
> > me, why have I been accepted for training?
> >
> > That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle
> > situations
> > in
> > which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally owned?
> >
> > Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we
> > would
> > consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the
> > animal
> > control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse
> > allegations,
> > even when they are legitimate.
> >
> > Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog is
> > too
> > much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as
> > a
> > child and that may not be kindly.
> >
> > What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint about
> > a
> > grad?
> >
> > We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
> > reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage
> > though
> > of complaints that are valid.
> >
> > How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if
> > you
> > found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
> >
> > I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that
> > the
> > schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on that
> > one. <grin>
> >
> >>From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may
> >>cause
> > policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
> > returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of these
> > dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or another.
> > Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. Yet,
> > if
> > the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she
> > wants.
> > Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed
> > with
> > another person.
> >
> > How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
> > something we all hope happens but something that can change for any team
> > over time?
> >
> > Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing
> > questions
> > as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the
> > desk.
> > Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes
> > those
> > people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
> > Jenine Stanley
> > jeninems at wowway.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:59:17 -0700
> From: "tina thomas " <tinadt at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
> <mailman.43388.1240824905.28886.nagdu_nfbnet.org at nfbnet.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> I do believe that ownership should be granted upon graduation. However, I
> don't believe we need a resolution to say so. People who apply to guide
> dog
> schools know their policies and they sign a contract. Bottom line is that
> dog users have a choice and we can choose not to go to a guide dog school
> that doesn't give ownership. As for guide dog users in California,
> ownership
> is not our first priority being that we have a guide dog board that is
> telling out of state guide dog schools that they can not come and work
> with
> graduates who reside in California without jumping through a bunch of
> hoops.
> As of right now, I can say, I would not be in favor of a resolution on
> ownership policy. We in California have bigger fish to fry.
> JMO.
> Tina
> JMO
>
> "Trust your own instinct. Your mistakes might as well be your own instead
> of
> someone else's."
> - Billy Wilder
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 9:52 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
> Would those of you with dogs from Leader, GEB, GDB, and other schools that
> don't grant immediate ownership have a problem with a resolution
> encouraging
> the schools to reconsider these policies and to find ways to promote
> self-determination for their students? I'm just curious. A resolution
> doesn't have to state that all NFB members will only attend schools that
> grant immediate ownership of the dog at graduation.
>
> I ask because if we came up with a resolution that urged Seeing Eye to
> reconsider some policy in light of consumer preference, I could
> potentially
> support it, even though I plan to get all my future dogs from that school.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Sherri
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:07 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
> Joining the minority view, I agree. I was very pleased with my training
> experience at Leader and though having ownership does carry some weight
> and
> at the time I went to Leader, which was 2004, I owned my dog, I will
> probably go back there for my next guide dog.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> > Marion,
> > What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> > Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as policy?
> > Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers. I
> > believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> > forcing this issue.
> > JMHO.
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf Of Marion & Martin
> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> > Susan,
> > Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> > spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> > should.
> > Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the
> > convention of the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members
> > think?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >
> >
> >> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>
> >> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >> voted on that as policy.
> >>
> >> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put
> >> it at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >> JMHO.
> >> Susan & Rhoda
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >> Hi Everyone,
> >>
> >> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> >> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>
> >> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>
> >> The next link to pick is:
> >> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >>
> >> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >> for.
> >> The
> >> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>
> >> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >> computer.
> >> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to
> >> that folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >> (Control O).
> >> Navigate
> >> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >> downloaded and press enter.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer only.
> >>
> >> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >> archived shows that you will like.
> >> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>
> >> Vince
> >> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>
> >>
> >> Message -----
> >> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >> found on our podcast
> >>
> >> or archive podcast pages.
> >>
> >> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>
> >> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >> night's show this afternoon.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Quintina
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >>
> >>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>right podcast.
> >>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for
> >>>example, steps, as to how to get there?
> >>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>> Thanks.
> >>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>
> >>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >>> Marion,
> >>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs, your
> >>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU
> >>> support since you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point
> >>> to share for the NFB support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners
> >>> into the NFB. The description of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were
> >>> uplifting and positively stated.
> >>> You
> >>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>> We, from the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and
> >>> thank you for joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as
> >>> the NAGDU President.
> >>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>> why or when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or
> >>> another method.
> >>> These
> >>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>> good to hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working
> >>> with our four legged partners.
> >>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and
> >>> future topics you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have
> >>> missed the live broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or
> >>> through the archive link on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the
> >>> link is:
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>> wife, my heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear
> >>> partner. All God's blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of
> >>> you...
> >>>
> >>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>> Coe-Chair Lead _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>> for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>> bal.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>> for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >> .net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> >> .net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >> bal.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> > n.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> > bal.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> >
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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> com
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> t
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 05:15:59 -0400
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <000801c9c718$c82a2ec0$6501a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=response
>
> Sherri,
> The Lighthouses for the Blind, Division of Blind Services, and other
> rehabilitation agencies operate on ublic funding, as well. Would you
> propose
> that we allow them to treat us in an arbitrary manner without any
> accountability to the consumers and their elected representatives? If the
> Division of Blind Services had a Consumer Advisory Council and refused to
> seat a member of the National Federation of the Blind because they
> believed
> we would not agree with their positions, should they be allowed to do so?
> I am of the opinion that the primary stakeholder of a guide dog school
> is the consumer, not the donors. Each school raises monies with the
> premise
> that they are "helping the blind". Most even assert (though I disagree)
> that
> they give the blind "dignity". If it were not for us, the blind, they
> would
> not be providing their services. Furthermore, many dedicated graduates
> raise
> funds for the programs from which they have graduated, so we are
> stakeholders in that sense, as well!
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion Gwizdala-Schoch
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
>
> > Janine, I totally agree that your points are very well-taken. for most
> > people, ownership of the dog is probably a good thing, but there are
> > those
> > people. Then you have to consider that most guide dog schools operate
> > and
> > exist because of the donations of private entities. Therefore, looking
> > at
> > the issue from both sides of the desk is a valid and worthwhile thing to
> > do.
> >
> > Sherri
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
> > Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
> >
> >
> >> Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I
> >> am
> >> very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
> >> graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
> >> schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon
> >> graduation.
> >> I know GDF did so.
> >>
> >> That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some
> >> type
> >> of
> >> custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog
> >> and
> >> hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
> >> involved?
> >>
> >> I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
> >> this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide
> >> dog.
> >> Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
> >>
> >> Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused
> >> their
> >> dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope
> >> that
> >> no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
> >> enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
> >> Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd
> >> wager
> >> do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be
> >> taken
> >> away.
> >>
> >> This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
> >> graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
> >> killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was, how did
> >> this
> >> person get a dog to begin with?
> >>
> >> That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
> >> killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before
> >> the
> >> incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from
> >> their
> >> donors and others over the incident though.
> >>
> >> Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally,
> >> I'll
> >> reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
> >>
> >> It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
> >> "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection
> >> from
> >> me, why have I been accepted for training?
> >>
> >> That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle
> >> situations
> >> in
> >> which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally
> >> owned?
> >>
> >> Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we
> >> would
> >> consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the
> >> animal
> >> control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse
> >> allegations,
> >> even when they are legitimate.
> >>
> >> Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog
> >> is
> >> too
> >> much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as
> >> a
> >> child and that may not be kindly.
> >>
> >> What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint
> >> about
> >> a
> >> grad?
> >>
> >> We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
> >> reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage
> >> though
> >> of complaints that are valid.
> >>
> >> How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if
> >> you
> >> found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
> >>
> >> I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that
> >> the
> >> schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on
> >> that
> >> one. <grin>
> >>
> >>>From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may
> >>>cause
> >> policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
> >> returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of
> >> these
> >> dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or
> >> another.
> >> Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler.
> >> Yet,
> >> if
> >> the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she
> >> wants.
> >> Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed
> >> with
> >> another person.
> >>
> >> How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
> >> something we all hope happens but something that can change for any
> >> team
> >> over time?
> >>
> >> Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing
> >> questions
> >> as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the
> >> desk.
> >> Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes
> >> those
> >> people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
> >> Jenine Stanley
> >> jeninems at wowway.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 05:27:37 -0400
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <000d01c9c71a$67a58e30$6501a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Tina,
> First of all, I think it would be an excellent idea for the NFB of
> california, through it's CAGDU division, to introduce a resolution
> concerning the Board of Guide Dog Schools. I also think it would be an
> excellent article for harness Up and the Braille Monitor.
> Though it is true that blind people have the choice of which school to
> attend, it may not necessarily be true that they realize there is such a
> choice. Furthermore, when guide dog schools don't communicate changes in
> ownership policies with the consumer organizations - such as Leader failed
> to do when they changed their policy - how does this reflect upon them? If
> the policy were sound, why did they fail to tell us (NAGDU) about the
> change
> in policy when giving their reports during our meetings. Additionally,
> from
> what at least two other graduates have told me, not only was the issue of
> ownership not shared until well into training, Leader asserts that this is
> the way most guide dog schools are going. Leader can demonstrate their
> regressive, paternalistic way of thinking, but they shouldn't misrepresent
> other schools to justify their position.
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tina thomas " <tinadt at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> >
> > I do believe that ownership should be granted upon graduation. However,
> > I
> > don't believe we need a resolution to say so. People who apply to guide
> > dog
> > schools know their policies and they sign a contract. Bottom line is
> > that
> > dog users have a choice and we can choose not to go to a guide dog
> > school
> > that doesn't give ownership. As for guide dog users in California,
> > ownership
> > is not our first priority being that we have a guide dog board that is
> > telling out of state guide dog schools that they can not come and work
> > with
> > graduates who reside in California without jumping through a bunch of
> > hoops.
> > As of right now, I can say, I would not be in favor of a resolution on
> > ownership policy. We in California have bigger fish to fry.
> > JMO.
> > Tina
> > JMO
> >
> > "Trust your own instinct. Your mistakes might as well be your own
> > instead
> > of
> > someone else's."
> > - Billy Wilder
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Angie Matney
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 9:52 AM
> > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> > Would those of you with dogs from Leader, GEB, GDB, and other schools
> > that
> > don't grant immediate ownership have a problem with a resolution
> > encouraging
> > the schools to reconsider these policies and to find ways to promote
> > self-determination for their students? I'm just curious. A resolution
> > doesn't have to state that all NFB members will only attend schools that
> > grant immediate ownership of the dog at graduation.
> >
> > I ask because if we came up with a resolution that urged Seeing Eye to
> > reconsider some policy in light of consumer preference, I could
> > potentially
> > support it, even though I plan to get all my future dogs from that
> > school.
> >
> > Angie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Sherri
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:07 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> > Joining the minority view, I agree. I was very pleased with my training
> > experience at Leader and though having ownership does carry some weight
> > and
> > at the time I went to Leader, which was 2004, I owned my dog, I will
> > probably go back there for my next guide dog.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> >
> >> Marion,
> >> What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> >> Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as policy?
> >> Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers. I
> >> believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> >> forcing this issue.
> >> JMHO.
> >> Susan
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >> Susan,
> >> Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> >> spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> >> should.
> >> Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the
> >> convention of the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members
> >> think?
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>
> >>
> >>> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >>> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>>
> >>> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >>> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >>> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >>> voted on that as policy.
> >>>
> >>> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put
> >>> it at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >>> JMHO.
> >>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>
> >>> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short cut
> >>> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>
> >>> The next link to pick is:
> >>> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click Here
> >>>
> >>> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >>> for.
> >>> The
> >>> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>>
> >>> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >>> computer.
> >>> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >>> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >>> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >>> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to
> >>> that folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >>> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >>> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >>> (Control O).
> >>> Navigate
> >>> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >>> downloaded and press enter.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >>> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer only.
> >>>
> >>> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >>> archived shows that you will like.
> >>> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>>
> >>> Vince
> >>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >>> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Message -----
> >>> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >>> found on our podcast
> >>>
> >>> or archive podcast pages.
> >>>
> >>> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>
> >>> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >>> night's show this afternoon.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Quintina
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>>right podcast.
> >>>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for
> >>>>example, steps, as to how to get there?
> >>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>>> Thanks.
> >>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>>
> >>>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this evening.
> >>>> Marion,
> >>>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs, your
> >>>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU
> >>>> support since you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point
> >>>> to share for the NFB support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners
> >>>> into the NFB. The description of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were
> >>>> uplifting and positively stated.
> >>>> You
> >>>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>>> We, from the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and
> >>>> thank you for joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as
> >>>> the NAGDU President.
> >>>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>>> why or when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or
> >>>> another method.
> >>>> These
> >>>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>>> good to hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working
> >>>> with our four legged partners.
> >>>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and
> >>>> future topics you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have
> >>>> missed the live broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or
> >>>> through the archive link on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the
> >>>> link is:
> >>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>>> wife, my heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear
> >>>> partner. All God's blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of
> >>>> you...
> >>>>
> >>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>>> Coe-Chair Lead _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>> for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>> bal.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>> for
> >>>> nagdu:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >>> .net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> >>> .net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>> bal.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nagdu mailing list
> >>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> nagdu:
> >>>
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> >> n.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >> bal.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nagdu mailing list
> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nagdu:
> >>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
> > com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tinadt%40sbcglobal.ne
> > t
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2080 - Release Date:
> > 04/25/09
> > 08:29:00
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nagdu:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 05:35:05 -0400
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <003801c9c71b$73135120$6501a8c0 at marion475ae1fe>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Angie,
> It may well be "a distinction without a purpose", but as a student of
> English and grammar, a point well taken! It at least has caused my mind to
> turn! (smile) Frankly, I'll need to think on it more! Please notice the
> early time of this reply! (grin)
>
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 7:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
>
>
> > Hi Marion,
> >
> > I have another question. Since "paternalism" generally involves some
> > benevolent intent, would you still argue that these policies are
> > paternalistic? I would agree that they are custodial, but I don't know
> > about
> > paternalistic.
> >
> > Perhaps this is a distinction without a difference.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Angie
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Marion & Martin
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 6:55 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> > Sherri,
> > First of all, I'm not a "condemn and deplore" type of person! (smile)
> > The schools have the right to establish any policy they wish while we
> > have
> > the right to disagree with that policy and work for change. I do believe
> > that the logic for Leader changing its ownership policy is severely
> > flawed
> > and - if what I have been told by a couple of recent graduates is true -
> > their assertion that "this is the way most schools are going" raises
> > more
> > questions than answers. Furthermore, I have never heard an argument for
> > not
> > transferring ownership that seems sound to me! It smacks of paternalism
> > and
> > I wonder what schools who do not think blind people can adequately care
> > for
> > their dogs think of our abilities to care for our children!
> > I am also working on another resolution encouraging state affiliates
> > to
> > work on legislation criminalizing access denials, as is so in Florida,
> > Georgia, Illinois, and a few other states. If I do this, the ownership
> > resolution would be put on the back burner, perhaps to be introduced
> > during
> > next year's convention.
> >
> > Fraternally,
> > Marion
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 2:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >
> >
> >>I have no problem with a positively worded resolution, but I don't want
> >>any
> >
> >>schools condemned and deplored for their ownership policy. *smile.
> >> Sherri
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:52 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>
> >>
> >>> Would those of you with dogs from Leader, GEB, GDB, and other schools
> >>> that
> >>> don't grant immediate ownership have a problem with a resolution
> >>> encouraging
> >>> the schools to reconsider these policies and to find ways to promote
> >>> self-determination for their students? I'm just curious. A resolution
> >>> doesn't have to state that all NFB members will only attend schools
> >>> that
> >>> grant immediate ownership of the dog at graduation.
> >>>
> >>> I ask because if we came up with a resolution that urged Seeing Eye to
> >>> reconsider some policy in light of consumer preference, I could
> >>> potentially
> >>> support it, even though I plan to get all my future dogs from that
> >>> school.
> >>>
> >>> Angie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Sherri
> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:07 PM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>>
> >>> Joining the minority view, I agree. I was very pleased with my
> >>> training
> >>> experience at Leader and though having ownership does carry some
> >>> weight
> >>> and
> >>> at the time I went to Leader, which was 2004, I owned my dog, I will
> >>> probably go back there for my next guide dog.
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:47 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Marion,
> >>>> What's wrong with leaving it up to personal preference?
> >>>> Why must everybody be forced to embrace the majority opinion as
> >>>> policy?
> >>>> Look what happened with the issue of dogs and our training centers.
> >>>> I
> >>>> believe, as I expressed at the time, the NFB was not well served by
> >>>> forcing
> >>>> this issue.
> >>>> JMHO.
> >>>> Susan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>> Behalf
> >>>> Of Marion & Martin
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:05 AM
> >>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>>> Subject: [nagdu] NAGDU and the Policy on Ownership
> >>>>
> >>>> Susan,
> >>>> Perhaps I misspoke about it being "policy". Interviews are pretty
> >>>> spontaneous and sometimes words don't come out the exact way they
> >>>> should.
> >>>> Perhaps, though, we should introduce a resolution to let the
> >>>> convention
> >>>> of
> >>>> the NFB decide this issue. What do the other members think?
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> >>>> Users'"
> >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:34 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Vincent, THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING THE LINK!
> >>>>> I just finished listening, and thoroughly enjoyed the show.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The one thing I would take issue with, Marion, is that we, as a
> >>>>> division, all believe immediate ownership is the best policy.
> >>>>> Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we ever
> >>>>> voted on that as policy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think ownership is very important, but I personally would not put
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> at the top of my list for considering a guide dog school.
> >>>>> JMHO.
> >>>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>>> Behalf Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:41 AM
> >>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Podcast is now available on the ThruOurEyes Web Site. A short
> >>>>> cut
> >>>>> link to the page is given by Quintina but I will include it again.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The next link to pick is:
> >>>>> To listen to CURRENT podcasts using our JAWS friendly page Click
> >>>>> Here
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The second header for the JAWS and Windoweyes users is what to look
> >>>>> for.
> >>>>> The
> >>>>> header is titled 122 - ThruOurEyes with Joe Ruffalo
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This above link will actually launch/start the Podcast on your
> >>>>> computer.
> >>>>> To download the show, i.e. to save the show as a MP3 file, you would
> >>>>> place the JAWS/WindowEyes cursor over the link. Then manually do a
> >>>>> right-mouse click. The next is to choose the File Save As, pick a
> >>>>> place to put the file so you can find it Then bring your focus to
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> folder and highlight the file and hit enter.
> >>>>> This will start your Windows Media, Quick Time, etc. If nothing
> >>>>> starts, you may have to start the Windows Media and do a File Open
> >>>>> (Control O).
> >>>>> Navigate
> >>>>> yourself through the Windows Tree structure to the file you just
> >>>>> downloaded and press enter.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Unfortunately if none of these work, your choice may be to click on
> >>>>> the link and listen anytime you want to hear it on your computer
> >>>>> only.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Take a look around the Web Site as you'll likely find many other
> >>>>> archived shows that you will like.
> >>>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Vince
> >>>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NJAGDU Committee
> >>>>> Coe-Chair Lead
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Quintina M. Singleton" <qmsingleton at comcast.net>
> >>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> >>>>> Users"
> >>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Podcasts are available 24 to 48 hours after broadcast. They can be
> >>>>> found
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> our podcast
> >>>>>
> >>>>> or archive podcast pages.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The link is www.Thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Thruoureyes editor told me that he would be working on last
> >>>>> night's
> >>>>> show
> >>>>> this afternoon.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Quintina
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "sblanjones11" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> >>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> >>>>> Users'"
> >>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:09 AM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I went onto the Through our Eyes website, and was unable to find the
> >>>>>>right
> >>>>>> podcast.
> >>>>>> Is there any way we could get an exact link, or a clue , for
> >>>>>> example,
> >>>>>> steps,
> >>>>>> as to how to get there?
> >>>>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would love to listen!
> >>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>> Susan & Rhoda
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>>>> Behalf
> >>>>>> Of Vincent Chaney
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> Cc: Joe Ruffalo
> >>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Marion with Joe Ruffalo on ThruOurEyes.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Marion and Joe,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You both did a fabulous job on the Internet Radio Show this
> >>>>>> evening.
> >>>>>> Marion,
> >>>>>> the details and descriptions of your working with 3 Guide Dogs,
> >>>>>> your
> >>>>>> knowledge and background on the philosophy of the NFB and GDU
> >>>>>> support
> >>>>>> since
> >>>>>> you joined in 1985 or 1987 was a good knowledge point to share for
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> NFB
> >>>>>> support and welcoming Guide Dog User partners into the NFB. The
> >>>>>> description
> >>>>>> of the purpose and goals of NAGDU were uplifting and positively
> >>>>>> stated.
> >>>>>> You
> >>>>>> and Joe commented on the formation of the NFBNJ committee, NJAGDU.
> >>>>>> We,
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>> the committee, are building a NFBNJ state advocacy team and thank
> >>>>>> you
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> joining us this past Sunday for our monthly meeting as the NAGDU
> >>>>>> President.
> >>>>>> You added a personal touch on your working with your dogs and how,
> >>>>>> why
> >>>>>> or
> >>>>>> when you choose to travel via a cane, sighted guide or another
> >>>>>> method.
> >>>>>> These
> >>>>>> points are very good especially for first time Guide Dog Users and
> >>>>>> good
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> hear as old timers that we do similar methods in working with our
> >>>>>> four
> >>>>>> legged partners.
> >>>>>> I look forward to your next visit to the ThruOurEyes radio and
> >>>>>> future
> >>>>>> topics
> >>>>>> you may share with everyone. For anyone who may have missed the
> >>>>>> live
> >>>>>> broadcast, the shows are available as a Podcast or through the
> >>>>>> archive
> >>>>>> link
> >>>>>> on www.thruoureyes.org. If this works, the link is:
> >>>>>> http://www.thruoureyes.org and will be there in a day or two.
> >>>>>> As you have shared on a very difficult time now for you and your
> >>>>>> wife,
> >>>>>> my
> >>>>>> heart goes out to Merry on the pending loss of her dear partner.
> >>>>>> All
> >>>>>> God's
> >>>>>> blessings, comfort, strength be with the both of you...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President NFBNJ NJAGDU
> >>>>>> Coe-Chair
> >>>>>> Lead _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> nagdu:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>>>> bal.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/qmsingleton%40comcast
> >>>>> .net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/harlan732%40optonline
> >>>>> .net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sblanjones11%40sbcglo
> >>>>> bal.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
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> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> >>>> n.net
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>
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> End of nagdu Digest, Vol 49, Issue 27
> *************************************
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