[nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership

Tue Apr 28 18:19:52 UTC 2009

I don't know that interviewing the neighbors would give you an unbiased 
opinion. *smile*  Some of my neighbors I get along with fine and 
others...well I'll just say that I'm relieved that they moved.

I think you would find the same sort of response in any sort of group of 
people that would know you well enough to be able to make a reasoned 
judgment on whether or not you were likely to properly care for a dog. They 
are already going to have their opinions about you.  Those opinions are also 
clouded by perception.  What is important to one person may not be even on 
the radar screen for the next.  For example my personality type is all about 
the information...give me the instruction manual please!  The secretary in 
the next office might be all about communication...she needs to talk to 
people, but I'm busy reading the instruction manual.  In my mind I'm doing 
what is important.  the fact that she feels I am being rude because I 
haven't discussed the new coat rack has not occurred to me. What sort of 
unbiased opinion is she going to give?

If you find someone who is truly unbiased, I would say that they don't know 
you.

In theory, though, I'm in favor of your suggestion.  I'd, personally, have 
no issue with a program contacting whomever about my character.    I'm all 
about transparency in business dealings, on both sides of the fence.

Julie
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership

> Perhaps one of the flaws with references is that people wishing to
> obtain a dog select their references. As far as I know, if Angie asked
> me to be a reference for her to get a dog, the school, any school would
> not say "Rebecca, we know Angie selected you, so we can ssume you're in
> favor of her getting a dog, can you select a person Angie may know whom
> she did not choose, so we can get what may be an unbaised oppinion"?
> Finally, and this is just food for thought, how would people feel about
> a guide dog school interiviewing neighbors and people we associated with
> to determine one's fitness for obtaining a dog?
> If schools automatically gave ownership of said dogs to grads, but the
> price was that people not of the applicant's suggestion were
> interviewed, would this change how we felt about oownership? What if the
> schools were totally transparent, so all whom applied knew of the
> process?
> I'm curious to know what the list has to say on this.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 6:16 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
> Hi Jenine,
>
> Excellent post. I certainly don't presume to know how I'd handle things
> if I were responsible for a guide-dog school. The reason I think
> ownership upon graduation is the best way to go partly has to do with a
> cost-benefit analysis. In his interview, Marion mentioned that some
> people are less likely to seek help with problems if they are afraid the
> dog will be taken away. Since these people are making a choice to keep
> quiet about difficulties, we probably have no idea how many such people
> there are. But clearly this is a recipe for disaster. I would argue that
> the abuse of a few dogs is, regrettably, a necessary "cost" to guide-dog
> mobility.
>
> That probably made me sound heartless. I doo think that all appropriate
> measures should be taken to minimize these incidents, but nothing will
> ever completely eliminate them. The incident with the Leader Dog
> happened around the time I got Glaze. I also applied to Leader back
> then, and Leader asked me for six references. So this man from PA was
> probably able to find six people who could vouch for him, six people who
> were willing to say, in writing, that he was a good candidate for a
> guide dog.
>
> I think the problem of people not returning dogs when they don't work
> out is similarly an unavoidable cost of guide-dog mobility. Maybe the
> schools could find ways to really emphasize the worth of these dogs and
> to encourage grads (without coercion) that returning a mismatched dog is
> in the best interests of all concerned. (On the other hand, I do think
> there are some instances when a grad is in a better position to judge
> whether or not a dog should be re-evaluated. But that's a whole nother
> kettle o' fish, and I ain't touching it tonight.)
>
> In this country, there are thousands of fatalities from automobile
> accidents each year; yet we continue to allow cars to be on the road
> because the cost-benefit analysis weighs in favor of maintaining the
> system. We pass laws to minimize traffic accidents, but we recognize
> that some people are going to be killed each year, no matter what we do.
> I guess I view ownership in the same way. If providing ownership at
> graduation would make it more likely for struggling handlers to seek
> help, then it is probably worth doing, even with its associated "costs."
> I'm sure the schools do conduct some form of cost-benefit analysis, even
> if they don't couch it in those terms.
>
> Again, great post.
>
> Angie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
> Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I
> am very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
> graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
> schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon
> graduation.
> I know GDF did so.
>
> That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some
> type of custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to
> the dog and hence the ability to take the dog back without other
> entities being involved?
>
> I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
> this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide
> dog.
> Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
>
> Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused their
> dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope
> that no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it
> well enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man
> in Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as
> I'd wager do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog
> must be taken away.
>
> This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
> graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
> killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was,  how did
> this person get a dog to begin with?
>
> That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
> killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before
> the incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager,
> from their donors and others over the incident though.
>
> Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally,
> I'll reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their
> reasoning.
>
> It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
> "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection
> from me, why have I been accepted for training?
>
> That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle
> situations in which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they
> legally owned?
>
> Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we
> would consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that
> the animal control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse
> allegations, even when they are legitimate.
>
> Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog is
> too much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated
> as a child and that may not be kindly.
>
> What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint about
> a grad?
>
> We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
> reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage
> though of complaints that are valid.
>
> How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if
> you found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
>
> I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that
> the schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on
> that one. <grin>
>
>>From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may
>>cause
> policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
> returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of these
> dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or another.
> Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. Yet,
> if the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she
> wants.
> Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed
> with another person.
>
> How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
> something we all hope happens but something that can change for any team
> over time?
>
> Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing
> questions as to how you might handle things if you were on the other
> side of the desk.
> Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes
> those people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gm
> ail.
> com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
> 40ngc.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jlcrane%40alltel.net
> 