[nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat

Wayne Merritt wcmerritt at gmail.com
Tue Aug 18 22:51:00 UTC 2009


Indeed, i agree whole heartedly. With all due respect, I'm not sure
that we will see much change regarding making the seats larger. Even
if they started making larger seats on new planes tomorrow, consider
how many planes there are in circulation, and the likelyhood of
getting one of the new ones verses one that's already in circulation,
to get the benefit of more room. Of course, if I can circle back to
the nFB on this with a reference, if there are that many "customers of
size" out there, perhaps an organization for customers of size should
be created. Then, you would be better able to advocate with collective
action on changing the seating arrangement, verses one or two people
saying that something needs to be done. I do think that when in
certain situations, some airline or other personnel will just take
advantage of the situation and make something out of nothing, such as
perhaps denying Peter a seat on the plane and covering it with the dog
guide, however, as Linda said, let's not make something out of
nothing, if that makes sense. And, if something can't be done to fix
the situation, such as moving to another seat with more room or taking
a later flight that might have more room, then find another way or
airline  to fly with or don't fly.

Yes, the seating arrangement is tight for us and our dogs, whether or
not you're a customer of size, but what's the alternative? Unless we
all agree that this is an issue to pursue, that of making more room
for the guide dog, then I'm not sure that we'll see any difference
anytime soon. Even if we all agree on this issue, I'm not sure that
it's a top priority given the number of guide dog users that fly each
day/week with their dogs and have no problems with seating, and given
the number of other issues there are out there that need addressing
regarding access rights for guide dogs.

Kind regards,
Wayne

On 8/18/09, Linda Gwizdak <linda.gwizdak at cox.net> wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> Yes, this issue can be one to benefit us guide dog users.  But you had said
> that you were forced to buy a second seat BECAUSE you were large and had a
> dog. I just said that you had to buy the extra seat ONLY because you are
> large and can't fit into their standard size seat.
>
> You said that you thought that charging you for a second seat was because
> someone on the plane - pilot, flight attendants - didn't want your dog.
> Yeah, that would violate ADA.  that is, if you were able to sit in the
> standard size seat. But you can't sit in a single seat with the arms down,
> so they had you buy two seats to accomadate you, and you only.  This had
> nothing to do with your dog.
>
> Please don't read in "discrimination" where it isn't there. We have enough
> real discrimination to deal with in our lives that we really don't need to
> fabricate any more!
>
> This is like a black person who is acting in an offensive or obnoxious way,
> someone objects to the behaviour, and then the person says, "You're saying
> that because I'm black."  Of course, the offended person is reacting to the
> BEHAVIOUR and not the race of the person.  Likewise, the airline has rules
> about people's size and they say if you can't fit into their seat with the
> arms down, then you have to buy two seats and had nothing to do with the
> dog.
>
> But, yes, you're right about wider seats and more room for our guide dogs!
> (grin!) Go for it!! But, I agree with you that if the plane isn't sold out,
> they should just give you the extra seat if there's an empty one next to
> you - absolutely!
>
> Peter, please don't be offended if I sound rather blunt - that's just how I
> am, I'm afraid.  I don't like that larger people have to pay extra.  With
> the price fo flying, it is a huge hardship on you and also my friend who has
> to do the same thing.
>
> I wish there were high-speed bullet trains to take across the country
> instead.  Train travel is MUCH better! You have more room, can get up and
> walk around, and see great scenery!
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>
>
>> Hello Linda and listers,
>>
>> If a campaign to urge airlines to install
>> wider seats takes wing the benefit to guide dog users should also be
>> brought
>> to light. Customers of size and guide dog users would benefit from wider
>> seats on airplanes.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>>
>> No, Peter. You were asked to buy a second seat because you don't fit in
>> the
>> standard seat. Period. It has nothing to do with you having a dog. I have
>> a
>> friend who is very large and he has to do the same thing - purchase a
>> second
>> seat.  He is not a dog user.
>>
>> It would be nice if ALL the seats were wider and less people were crammed
>> on
>> the planes. I wish there was also more foot room as well.  After a
>> cross-country flight with my dog on my feet, I can barely walk upon
>> deplaning.  This kind of leg immobility is hazardous to many people with
>> or
>> without dogs - you know, the blood clot issue.
>>
>> Rather than small seats being a service dog issue, it is a PEOPLE issue
>> and
>> how the airlines treat people in general.  They get away with it because
>> we
>> can't sprout wings and fly ourselves. We are dependant on them and they
>> know
>> it.  It really sucks and I don't know what will happen on my up-coming
>> cross-country flights.
>>
>> Linda and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>>
>>> Hello Dar and listers,
>>>
>>>    Thanks to our meeting location and the lateness of our paratransit
>>> service I decided to stay home so can answer your question. I'd like to
>>> believe that my being asked to buy the second seat was due to my not
>>> being
>>> able to fit in the standard coach seat with both arms down.
>>>
>>>    What really makes me feel uncomfortable about this business is that
>>> it's
>>> a convenient way for an airline to mask discrimination against a guide
>>> dog
>>> user. I wonder if the same thing would have happened had I not had Johnny
>>> with me? For all I know there may have been a passenger or crew member
>>> that
>>> may have objected to there being a dog on the plane. To refuse us due to
>>> the
>>> dog out right would be a direct violation of the Air Carrier Access Act.
>>> However it was observed that I was large and could be classified as a
>>> passenger of size and subject to Southwest's rules regarding carriage of
>>> such passengers. If indeed someone took issue with there being a dog on
>>> the
>>> flight and noticing that I was a large passenger they found an easy and
>>> convenient way to dodge the ACAA, "If he can't pay for an extra seat
>>> we'll
>>> be rid of him and that dog" the thinking would probably go. Be where that
>>> using an airline's passenger of size policy to attempt to cover up
>>> discrimination against a guide dog user would most likely be a bear to
>>> prove
>>> in court. For all I know I could take another Southwest flight and no one
>>> would say anything about it. They'd figure that although I was a large
>>> passenger and the flight wasn't sold out they could give me the extra
>>> room
>>> for myself and Johnny so why make a big deal about it. It's just a matter
>>> of
>>> time before some airline makes the wrong judgment call and gives us the
>>> conclusive evidence needed to win a guide dog discrimination complaint
>>> against them resulting from the abuse of their passenger of size policy
>>> to
>>> put such policies out of commission and hasten the day when wider seats
>>> are
>>> installed in all classes of service making such policies unnecessary and
>>> giving us additional room for our dogs.
>>>
>>>    Oh yes! Printing out my boarding pass in Detroit for my return flight
>>> was quite amusing. Before my boarding pass with the extra seat was
>>> printed
>>> all of Southwest's computers in Detroit went down for about a half hour.
>>> It
>>> took 2 CROS,6 ticket agents, and calls to Southwest's Corporate
>>> Headquarters
>>> to get the computers in Detroit back up and print my boarding pass. I
>>> thought to myself in the words of Paul Watson of Whale wars fame, "They
>>> picked a fight with the wrong passenger!"
>>>
>>>    This story has one more scary chapter. We changed planes in Nashville.
>>> Before our flight to San Antonio left the ground we heard an awful
>>> grinding
>>> sound coming from the lower part of the aircraft. That shook up a few
>>> passengers. One of them began crying. I have reason to believe that
>>> Johnny
>>> must have smelled something unusual as he became wrestless but settled
>>> down
>>> once we began climbing and the plane leveled off. I can't help but wonder
>>> if
>>> he sensed a possible danger and was alerting me to it. The grouchy head
>>> flight attendant wasn't making things much better. She was rude and nasty
>>> to
>>> everyone on board. Upon landing in San Antonio we told the pilot what we
>>> heard. He was surprised to learn that we heard the noise before the plane
>>> left the runway and not after we became airborne. Such sounds are heard
>>> when
>>> the wheels are retracted in to the belly of the plane during ascent but
>>> we
>>> heard that horrible sound before the plane left the ground. To our shock
>>> the
>>> captain seen unconcerned. Safety you say? To my way of thinking no one
>>> should have been allowed to set foot on that plane until it was inspected
>>> to
>>> be sure it was fit to remain in service.
>>>
>>>    I'm sure many of you heard the news a few days later about the
>>> Southwest
>>> jet that lost a part of its fuselage. The question that haunts us is
>>> whether
>>> or not we may have been on that same plane. If the captain took our
>>> concerns
>>> seriously and the aircraft undergone a thorough inspection and the
>>> problems
>>> with the plane's fuselage discovered and repaired. that air mishap could
>>> have been prevented.
>>>
>>>    It's this kind of stuff that has us and many others seeking airtravel
>>> alternatives such as the use of chartered flights. As for guide dogs on
>>> air
>>> charters I've heard that many charter companies allow pets to fly in the
>>> cabin with their owners so flying with a guide dog in the cabin shouldn't
>>> be
>>> an issue. I'm sure we'll have more to say about this in the coming
>>> months.
>>> All the best for a great weekend.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>
>>>
>>> I am pleased you got your money back.
>>> Now they embarrassed you because of size not how large the dog was?
>>> Is this the concern?
>>> Or because the dog would go in front of the second seat?
>>> I just need to understand.
>>> this is where I question the balk head, because no matter the size of
>>> the dog, they have to go across the feet, they can't go under the seat
>>> in front of you.
>>> or they stick out in the isle in balk head.
>>> thanks for replying so quickly.
>>> I would be willing to ask my chapter or on the MAB list, if you would
>>> like me to.
>>> Asking how folks would feel about a charter plane.
>>> As long as I understood how folks in Montana would get to the charter.
>>> I sure would hate to see the plane go down with so many blind persons
>>> on it though.
>>> just my thoughts.
>>>
>>> --
>>> --Dar
>>> skype
>>> dmgina23
>>> every saint has a past
>>> every sinner has a future
>>>
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