[nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat

Wed Aug 19 03:22:35 UTC 2009

I also do not think your dog needs to be brought into the matter at all, 
since the reason for purchasing an extra seat is because of the size of the 
person, not the dog. I also agree that if they had an unsold seat, they 
should have just given it to you.
Sherri
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat


> Hi Peter,
> Yes, this issue can be one to benefit us guide dog users.  But you had 
> said that you were forced to buy a second seat BECAUSE you were large and 
> had a dog. I just said that you had to buy the extra seat ONLY because you 
> are large and can't fit into their standard size seat.
>
> You said that you thought that charging you for a second seat was because 
> someone on the plane - pilot, flight attendants - didn't want your dog. 
> Yeah, that would violate ADA.  that is, if you were able to sit in the 
> standard size seat. But you can't sit in a single seat with the arms down, 
> so they had you buy two seats to accomadate you, and you only.  This had 
> nothing to do with your dog.
>
> Please don't read in "discrimination" where it isn't there. We have enough 
> real discrimination to deal with in our lives that we really don't need to 
> fabricate any more!
>
> This is like a black person who is acting in an offensive or obnoxious 
> way, someone objects to the behaviour, and then the person says, "You're 
> saying that because I'm black."  Of course, the offended person is 
> reacting to the BEHAVIOUR and not the race of the person.  Likewise, the 
> airline has rules about people's size and they say if you can't fit into 
> their seat with the arms down, then you have to buy two seats and had 
> nothing to do with the dog.
>
> But, yes, you're right about wider seats and more room for our guide dogs! 
> (grin!) Go for it!! But, I agree with you that if the plane isn't sold 
> out, they should just give you the extra seat if there's an empty one next 
> to you - absolutely!
>
> Peter, please don't be offended if I sound rather blunt - that's just how 
> I am, I'm afraid.  I don't like that larger people have to pay extra. 
> With the price fo flying, it is a huge hardship on you and also my friend 
> who has to do the same thing.
>
> I wish there were high-speed bullet trains to take across the country 
> instead.  Train travel is MUCH better! You have more room, can get up and 
> walk around, and see great scenery!
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>
>
>> Hello Linda and listers,
>>
>> If a campaign to urge airlines to install
>> wider seats takes wing the benefit to guide dog users should also be 
>> brought
>> to light. Customers of size and guide dog users would benefit from wider
>> seats on airplanes.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>>
>> No, Peter. You were asked to buy a second seat because you don't fit in 
>> the
>> standard seat. Period. It has nothing to do with you having a dog. I have 
>> a
>> friend who is very large and he has to do the same thing - purchase a 
>> second
>> seat.  He is not a dog user.
>>
>> It would be nice if ALL the seats were wider and less people were crammed 
>> on
>> the planes. I wish there was also more foot room as well.  After a
>> cross-country flight with my dog on my feet, I can barely walk upon
>> deplaning.  This kind of leg immobility is hazardous to many people with 
>> or
>> without dogs - you know, the blood clot issue.
>>
>> Rather than small seats being a service dog issue, it is a PEOPLE issue 
>> and
>> how the airlines treat people in general.  They get away with it because 
>> we
>> can't sprout wings and fly ourselves. We are dependant on them and they 
>> know
>> it.  It really sucks and I don't know what will happen on my up-coming
>> cross-country flights.
>>
>> Linda and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>>
>>> Hello Dar and listers,
>>>
>>>    Thanks to our meeting location and the lateness of our paratransit
>>> service I decided to stay home so can answer your question. I'd like to
>>> believe that my being asked to buy the second seat was due to my not 
>>> being
>>> able to fit in the standard coach seat with both arms down.
>>>
>>>    What really makes me feel uncomfortable about this business is that
>>> it's
>>> a convenient way for an airline to mask discrimination against a guide 
>>> dog
>>> user. I wonder if the same thing would have happened had I not had 
>>> Johnny
>>> with me? For all I know there may have been a passenger or crew member
>>> that
>>> may have objected to there being a dog on the plane. To refuse us due to
>>> the
>>> dog out right would be a direct violation of the Air Carrier Access Act.
>>> However it was observed that I was large and could be classified as a
>>> passenger of size and subject to Southwest's rules regarding carriage of
>>> such passengers. If indeed someone took issue with there being a dog on
>>> the
>>> flight and noticing that I was a large passenger they found an easy and
>>> convenient way to dodge the ACAA, "If he can't pay for an extra seat 
>>> we'll
>>> be rid of him and that dog" the thinking would probably go. Be where 
>>> that
>>> using an airline's passenger of size policy to attempt to cover up
>>> discrimination against a guide dog user would most likely be a bear to
>>> prove
>>> in court. For all I know I could take another Southwest flight and no 
>>> one
>>> would say anything about it. They'd figure that although I was a large
>>> passenger and the flight wasn't sold out they could give me the extra 
>>> room
>>> for myself and Johnny so why make a big deal about it. It's just a 
>>> matter
>>> of
>>> time before some airline makes the wrong judgment call and gives us the
>>> conclusive evidence needed to win a guide dog discrimination complaint
>>> against them resulting from the abuse of their passenger of size policy 
>>> to
>>> put such policies out of commission and hasten the day when wider seats
>>> are
>>> installed in all classes of service making such policies unnecessary and
>>> giving us additional room for our dogs.
>>>
>>>    Oh yes! Printing out my boarding pass in Detroit for my return flight
>>> was quite amusing. Before my boarding pass with the extra seat was 
>>> printed
>>> all of Southwest's computers in Detroit went down for about a half hour.
>>> It
>>> took 2 CROS,6 ticket agents, and calls to Southwest's Corporate
>>> Headquarters
>>> to get the computers in Detroit back up and print my boarding pass. I
>>> thought to myself in the words of Paul Watson of Whale wars fame, "They
>>> picked a fight with the wrong passenger!"
>>>
>>>    This story has one more scary chapter. We changed planes in 
>>> Nashville.
>>> Before our flight to San Antonio left the ground we heard an awful
>>> grinding
>>> sound coming from the lower part of the aircraft. That shook up a few
>>> passengers. One of them began crying. I have reason to believe that 
>>> Johnny
>>> must have smelled something unusual as he became wrestless but settled
>>> down
>>> once we began climbing and the plane leveled off. I can't help but 
>>> wonder
>>> if
>>> he sensed a possible danger and was alerting me to it. The grouchy head
>>> flight attendant wasn't making things much better. She was rude and 
>>> nasty
>>> to
>>> everyone on board. Upon landing in San Antonio we told the pilot what we
>>> heard. He was surprised to learn that we heard the noise before the 
>>> plane
>>> left the runway and not after we became airborne. Such sounds are heard
>>> when
>>> the wheels are retracted in to the belly of the plane during ascent but 
>>> we
>>> heard that horrible sound before the plane left the ground. To our shock
>>> the
>>> captain seen unconcerned. Safety you say? To my way of thinking no one
>>> should have been allowed to set foot on that plane until it was 
>>> inspected
>>> to
>>> be sure it was fit to remain in service.
>>>
>>>    I'm sure many of you heard the news a few days later about the
>>> Southwest
>>> jet that lost a part of its fuselage. The question that haunts us is
>>> whether
>>> or not we may have been on that same plane. If the captain took our
>>> concerns
>>> seriously and the aircraft undergone a thorough inspection and the
>>> problems
>>> with the plane's fuselage discovered and repaired. that air mishap could
>>> have been prevented.
>>>
>>>    It's this kind of stuff that has us and many others seeking airtravel
>>> alternatives such as the use of chartered flights. As for guide dogs on
>>> air
>>> charters I've heard that many charter companies allow pets to fly in the
>>> cabin with their owners so flying with a guide dog in the cabin 
>>> shouldn't
>>> be
>>> an issue. I'm sure we'll have more to say about this in the coming 
>>> months.
>>> All the best for a great weekend.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>
>>>
>>> I am pleased you got your money back.
>>> Now they embarrassed you because of size not how large the dog was?
>>> Is this the concern?
>>> Or because the dog would go in front of the second seat?
>>> I just need to understand.
>>> this is where I question the balk head, because no matter the size of
>>> the dog, they have to go across the feet, they can't go under the seat
>>> in front of you.
>>> or they stick out in the isle in balk head.
>>> thanks for replying so quickly.
>>> I would be willing to ask my chapter or on the MAB list, if you would
>>> like me to.
>>> Asking how folks would feel about a charter plane.
>>> As long as I understood how folks in Montana would get to the charter.
>>> I sure would hate to see the plane go down with so many blind persons
>>> on it though.
>>> just my thoughts.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> --Dar
>>> skype
>>> dmgina23
>>> every saint has a past
>>> every sinner has a future
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
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