[nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
Nicole B. Torcolini
ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Sat Aug 29 04:21:58 UTC 2009
Oh, okay. Never mind. I am much too young to have experienced much
of the time period that Peter is referring to. As far as Lexia's harness, I
put it in the over head compartment directly over my seat. I can get it if
I need it. Luckily, I have never had my cane or my harness taken away from
me. Even though this is not a cane list, I have to say that one of the
reasons that I prefer a folding cane when I do have to use one is because I
can just tuck it away somewhere and no one complains about it.
Nicole
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Wayne Merritt
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 8:15 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties where
the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from blind
people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and hit someone
if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed this part of
airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a few times by flight
attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to one persont that the cane
was securely between my window seat and the inside wall of the plane; in
other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with the
flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my cane in the
closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but this has happened a
very few times, thankfully.
I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when they
were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of those smaller
express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I chose not to make
an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with potentially more room in
the first class area, though we are still talking of those smaller jets. I
was reminded of of the incidents of giving up canes though and wondered if
giving up a harness was similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was
able to get the harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like
something was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but no
dice. Thoughts?
Hth,
Wayne
On 8/28/09, Nicole B. Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> Peter,
>
> Can you please explain a little more about your angle on canes
having
> to be stowed during take off and landing.
>
> Nicole
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Donahue
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 5:10 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>
> Hello Linda and listers,
>
> You're missing what I said. Yes they charged me for the extra seat
> because I was unable to fit in the standard size seat. The scenario
> was that someone on the plane wasn't happy with a dog being on that
> flight, the flight was no where full and someone noticed I was a large
> passenger. They figured that if I couldn't buy the extra seat and
> would not be able to fly. This would be a good way to circumvent the
> ACAA, (Not the ADA as it does not apply to
> airlines) they would not have a dog on the flight. Now suppose I
> didn't have Johnny with me, the flight was no where full, and no one
> raised the issue of being too big to fit in the single seat. This
> business can become very unpredictable and only makes flying
> commercially unpleasant for an entire class of passengers; passengers
> that would continue to generate revenue for the airlines if they would
> install wider seats on their planes and by doing so would make it
> easier to accommodate large dogs under the seat in front of the passenger.
>
> All of this unpredictability and uncertainty now faced by large
> passengers is similar to that once faced by blind air passengers and
> which still happens today. Despite the ACAA blind passengers are told
> their canes must be stowed during take-off and landing, airlines still
> try to make guide dog users sit in bulkhead rows, try to force blind
> passengers to preboard and postboard, you get the idea. It's also the
> reason why several state affiliates, and a few others I know are
> exploring the possibility of using air charter services in the future
> to fly members to and from national events. All the best.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>
>
> Hi Peter,
> Yes, this issue can be one to benefit us guide dog users. But you had
> said that you were forced to buy a second seat BECAUSE you were large
> and had a dog. I just said that you had to buy the extra seat ONLY
> because you are large and can't fit into their standard size seat.
>
> You said that you thought that charging you for a second seat was
> because someone on the plane - pilot, flight attendants - didn't want your
dog.
> Yeah, that would violate ADA. that is, if you were able to sit in the
> standard size seat. But you can't sit in a single seat with the arms
> down, so they had you buy two seats to accomadate you, and you only.
> This had nothing to do with your dog.
>
> Please don't read in "discrimination" where it isn't there. We have
> enough real discrimination to deal with in our lives that we really
> don't need to fabricate any more!
>
> This is like a black person who is acting in an offensive or obnoxious
> way, someone objects to the behaviour, and then the person says,
> "You're saying that because I'm black." Of course, the offended
> person is reacting to the BEHAVIOUR and not the race of the person.
> Likewise, the airline has rules about people's size and they say if
> you can't fit into their seat with the arms down, then you have to buy
> two seats and had nothing to do with the dog.
>
> But, yes, you're right about wider seats and more room for our guide dogs!
> (grin!) Go for it!! But, I agree with you that if the plane isn't sold
> out, they should just give you the extra seat if there's an empty one
> next to you - absolutely!
>
> Peter, please don't be offended if I sound rather blunt - that's just
> how I am, I'm afraid. I don't like that larger people have to pay
> extra. With the price fo flying, it is a huge hardship on you and
> also my friend who has to do the same thing.
>
> I wish there were high-speed bullet trains to take across the country
> instead. Train travel is MUCH better! You have more room, can get up
> and walk around, and see great scenery!
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>
>
>> Hello Linda and listers,
>>
>> If a campaign to urge airlines to install wider seats takes wing the
>> benefit to guide dog users should also be brought to light. Customers
>> of size and guide dog users would benefit from wider seats on
>> airplanes.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>>
>> No, Peter. You were asked to buy a second seat because you don't fit
>> in the standard seat. Period. It has nothing to do with you having a
>> dog. I have a friend who is very large and he has to do the same
>> thing - purchase a second seat. He is not a dog user.
>>
>> It would be nice if ALL the seats were wider and less people were
>> crammed on the planes. I wish there was also more foot room as well.
>> After a cross-country flight with my dog on my feet, I can barely
>> walk upon deplaning. This kind of leg immobility is hazardous to
>> many people with or without dogs - you know, the blood clot issue.
>>
>> Rather than small seats being a service dog issue, it is a PEOPLE
>> issue and how the airlines treat people in general. They get away
>> with it because we can't sprout wings and fly ourselves. We are
>> dependant on them and they know it. It really sucks and I don't know
>> what will happen on my up-coming cross-country flights.
>>
>> Linda and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>>
>>> Hello Dar and listers,
>>>
>>> Thanks to our meeting location and the lateness of our
>>> paratransit service I decided to stay home so can answer your
>>> question. I'd like to believe that my being asked to buy the second
>>> seat was due to my not being able to fit in the standard coach seat
>>> with both arms down.
>>>
>>> What really makes me feel uncomfortable about this business is
>>> that it's a convenient way for an airline to mask discrimination
>>> against a guide dog user. I wonder if the same thing would have
>>> happened had I not had Johnny with me? For all I know there may have
>>> been a passenger or crew member that may have objected to there
>>> being a dog on the plane. To refuse us due to the dog out right
>>> would be a direct violation of the Air Carrier Access Act.
>>> However it was observed that I was large and could be classified as
>>> a passenger of size and subject to Southwest's rules regarding
>>> carriage of such passengers. If indeed someone took issue with there
>>> being a dog on the flight and noticing that I was a large passenger
>>> they found an easy and convenient way to dodge the ACAA, "If he
>>> can't pay for an extra seat we'll be rid of him and that dog" the
>>> thinking would probably go. Be where that using an airline's
>>> passenger of size policy to attempt to cover up discrimination
>>> against a guide dog user would most likely be a bear to prove in
>>> court. For all I know I could take another Southwest flight and no
>>> one would say anything about it. They'd figure that although I was a
>>> large passenger and the flight wasn't sold out they could give me
>>> the extra room for myself and Johnny so why make a big deal about
>>> it. It's just a matter of time before some airline makes the wrong
>>> judgment call and gives us the conclusive evidence needed to win a
>>> guide dog discrimination complaint against them resulting from the
>>> abuse of their passenger of size policy to put such policies out of
>>> commission and hasten the day when wider seats are installed in all
>>> classes of service making such policies unnecessary and giving us
>>> additional room for our dogs.
>>>
>>> Oh yes! Printing out my boarding pass in Detroit for my return
>>> flight was quite amusing. Before my boarding pass with the extra
>>> seat was printed all of Southwest's computers in Detroit went down
>>> for about a half hour.
>>> It
>>> took 2 CROS,6 ticket agents, and calls to Southwest's Corporate
>>> Headquarters to get the computers in Detroit back up and print my
>>> boarding pass. I thought to myself in the words of Paul Watson of
>>> Whale wars fame, "They picked a fight with the wrong passenger!"
>>>
>>> This story has one more scary chapter. We changed planes in
Nashville.
>>> Before our flight to San Antonio left the ground we heard an awful
>>> grinding sound coming from the lower part of the aircraft. That
>>> shook up a few passengers. One of them began crying. I have reason
>>> to believe that Johnny must have smelled something unusual as he
>>> became wrestless but settled down once we began climbing and the
>>> plane leveled off. I can't help but wonder if he sensed a possible
>>> danger and was alerting me to it. The grouchy head flight attendant
>>> wasn't making things much better. She was rude and nasty to everyone
>>> on board. Upon landing in San Antonio we told the pilot what we
>>> heard. He was surprised to learn that we heard the noise before the
>>> plane left the runway and not after we became airborne. Such sounds
>>> are heard when the wheels are retracted in to the belly of the plane
>>> during ascent but we heard that horrible sound before the plane left
>>> the ground. To our shock the captain seen unconcerned. Safety you
>>> say? To my way of thinking no one should have been allowed to set
>>> foot on that plane until it was inspected to be sure it was fit to
>>> remain in service.
>>>
>>> I'm sure many of you heard the news a few days later about the
>>> Southwest jet that lost a part of its fuselage. The question that
>>> haunts us is whether or not we may have been on that same plane. If
>>> the captain took our concerns seriously and the aircraft undergone a
>>> thorough inspection and the problems with the plane's fuselage
>>> discovered and repaired. that air mishap could have been prevented.
>>>
>>> It's this kind of stuff that has us and many others seeking
>>> airtravel alternatives such as the use of chartered flights. As for
>>> guide dogs on air charters I've heard that many charter companies
>>> allow pets to fly in the cabin with their owners so flying with a
>>> guide dog in the cabin shouldn't be an issue. I'm sure we'll have
>>> more to say about this in the coming months.
>>> All the best for a great weekend.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>
>>>
>>> I am pleased you got your money back.
>>> Now they embarrassed you because of size not how large the dog was?
>>> Is this the concern?
>>> Or because the dog would go in front of the second seat?
>>> I just need to understand.
>>> this is where I question the balk head, because no matter the size
>>> of the dog, they have to go across the feet, they can't go under the
>>> seat in front of you.
>>> or they stick out in the isle in balk head.
>>> thanks for replying so quickly.
>>> I would be willing to ask my chapter or on the MAB list, if you
>>> would like me to.
>>> Asking how folks would feel about a charter plane.
>>> As long as I understood how folks in Montana would get to the charter.
>>> I sure would hate to see the plane go down with so many blind
>>> persons on it though.
>>> just my thoughts.
>>>
>>> --
>>> --Dar
>>> skype
>>> dmgina23
>>> every saint has a past
>>> every sinner has a future
>>>
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
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