[nagdu] harness storage was Air Charters and the extra seat
Julie J
julielj at windstream.net
Sat Aug 29 12:38:43 UTC 2009
Wayne,
I don't fly all that much, but I left the harness on Belle, just taking off
the handle and storing it in the seat pocket.
I use a different type of harness though. It is flexible and comfortable.
The handle is extremely easy to take off and put back on. I'm trying to
think of a time when I take off the harness in a public sort of situation
and nothing is coming to mind. I've never really thought about it. It's
just how I've always worked my dogs.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Merritt" <wcmerritt at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>
> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
> no dice. Thoughts?
>
> Hth,
> Wayne
>
> On 8/28/09, Nicole B. Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>> Peter,
>>
>> Can you please explain a little more about your angle on canes
>> having to be stowed during take off and landing.
>>
>> Nicole
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 5:10 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>> Hello Linda and listers,
>>
>> You're missing what I said. Yes they charged me for the extra seat
>> because I
>> was unable to fit in the standard size seat. The scenario was that
>> someone
>> on the plane wasn't happy with a dog being on that flight, the flight was
>> no
>> where full and someone noticed I was a large passenger. They figured that
>> if
>> I couldn't buy the extra seat and would not be able to fly. This would be
>> a
>> good way to circumvent the ACAA, (Not the ADA as it does not apply to
>> airlines) they would not have a dog on the flight. Now suppose I didn't
>> have
>> Johnny with me, the flight was no where full, and no one raised the issue
>> of
>> being too big to fit in the single seat. This business can become very
>> unpredictable and only makes flying commercially unpleasant for an entire
>> class of passengers; passengers that would continue to generate revenue
>> for
>> the airlines if they would install wider seats on their planes and by
>> doing
>> so would make it easier to accommodate large dogs under the seat in front
>> of
>> the passenger.
>>
>> All of this unpredictability and uncertainty now faced by large
>> passengers is similar to that once faced by blind air passengers and
>> which
>> still happens today. Despite the ACAA blind passengers are told their
>> canes
>> must be stowed during take-off and landing, airlines still try to make
>> guide
>> dog users sit in bulkhead rows, try to force blind passengers to preboard
>> and postboard, you get the idea. It's also the reason why several state
>> affiliates, and a few others I know are exploring the possibility of
>> using
>> air charter services in the future to fly members to and from national
>> events. All the best.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 4:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>>
>> Hi Peter,
>> Yes, this issue can be one to benefit us guide dog users. But you had
>> said
>> that you were forced to buy a second seat BECAUSE you were large and had
>> a
>> dog. I just said that you had to buy the extra seat ONLY because you are
>> large and can't fit into their standard size seat.
>>
>> You said that you thought that charging you for a second seat was because
>> someone on the plane - pilot, flight attendants - didn't want your dog.
>> Yeah, that would violate ADA. that is, if you were able to sit in the
>> standard size seat. But you can't sit in a single seat with the arms
>> down,
>> so they had you buy two seats to accomadate you, and you only. This had
>> nothing to do with your dog.
>>
>> Please don't read in "discrimination" where it isn't there. We have
>> enough
>> real discrimination to deal with in our lives that we really don't need
>> to
>> fabricate any more!
>>
>> This is like a black person who is acting in an offensive or obnoxious
>> way,
>> someone objects to the behaviour, and then the person says, "You're
>> saying
>> that because I'm black." Of course, the offended person is reacting to
>> the
>> BEHAVIOUR and not the race of the person. Likewise, the airline has
>> rules
>> about people's size and they say if you can't fit into their seat with
>> the
>> arms down, then you have to buy two seats and had nothing to do with the
>> dog.
>>
>> But, yes, you're right about wider seats and more room for our guide
>> dogs!
>> (grin!) Go for it!! But, I agree with you that if the plane isn't sold
>> out,
>> they should just give you the extra seat if there's an empty one next to
>> you - absolutely!
>>
>> Peter, please don't be offended if I sound rather blunt - that's just how
>> I
>> am, I'm afraid. I don't like that larger people have to pay extra. With
>> the price fo flying, it is a huge hardship on you and also my friend who
>> has
>> to do the same thing.
>>
>> I wish there were high-speed bullet trains to take across the country
>> instead. Train travel is MUCH better! You have more room, can get up and
>> walk around, and see great scenery!
>>
>> Linda and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>>
>>> Hello Linda and listers,
>>>
>>> If a campaign to urge airlines to install
>>> wider seats takes wing the benefit to guide dog users should also be
>>> brought
>>> to light. Customers of size and guide dog users would benefit from wider
>>> seats on airplanes.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>
>>>
>>> No, Peter. You were asked to buy a second seat because you don't fit in
>>> the
>>> standard seat. Period. It has nothing to do with you having a dog. I
>>> have
>>> a
>>> friend who is very large and he has to do the same thing - purchase a
>>> second
>>> seat. He is not a dog user.
>>>
>>> It would be nice if ALL the seats were wider and less people were
>>> crammed
>>> on
>>> the planes. I wish there was also more foot room as well. After a
>>> cross-country flight with my dog on my feet, I can barely walk upon
>>> deplaning. This kind of leg immobility is hazardous to many people with
>>> or
>>> without dogs - you know, the blood clot issue.
>>>
>>> Rather than small seats being a service dog issue, it is a PEOPLE issue
>>> and
>>> how the airlines treat people in general. They get away with it because
>>> we
>>> can't sprout wings and fly ourselves. We are dependant on them and they
>>> know
>>> it. It really sucks and I don't know what will happen on my up-coming
>>> cross-country flights.
>>>
>>> Linda and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:52 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello Dar and listers,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to our meeting location and the lateness of our paratransit
>>>> service I decided to stay home so can answer your question. I'd like to
>>>> believe that my being asked to buy the second seat was due to my not
>>>> being
>>>> able to fit in the standard coach seat with both arms down.
>>>>
>>>> What really makes me feel uncomfortable about this business is that
>>>> it's
>>>> a convenient way for an airline to mask discrimination against a guide
>>>> dog
>>>> user. I wonder if the same thing would have happened had I not had
>>>> Johnny
>>>> with me? For all I know there may have been a passenger or crew member
>>>> that
>>>> may have objected to there being a dog on the plane. To refuse us due
>>>> to
>>>> the
>>>> dog out right would be a direct violation of the Air Carrier Access
>>>> Act.
>>>> However it was observed that I was large and could be classified as a
>>>> passenger of size and subject to Southwest's rules regarding carriage
>>>> of
>>>> such passengers. If indeed someone took issue with there being a dog on
>>>> the
>>>> flight and noticing that I was a large passenger they found an easy and
>>>> convenient way to dodge the ACAA, "If he can't pay for an extra seat
>>>> we'll
>>>> be rid of him and that dog" the thinking would probably go. Be where
>>>> that
>>>> using an airline's passenger of size policy to attempt to cover up
>>>> discrimination against a guide dog user would most likely be a bear to
>>>> prove
>>>> in court. For all I know I could take another Southwest flight and no
>>>> one
>>>> would say anything about it. They'd figure that although I was a large
>>>> passenger and the flight wasn't sold out they could give me the extra
>>>> room
>>>> for myself and Johnny so why make a big deal about it. It's just a
>>>> matter
>>>> of
>>>> time before some airline makes the wrong judgment call and gives us the
>>>> conclusive evidence needed to win a guide dog discrimination complaint
>>>> against them resulting from the abuse of their passenger of size policy
>>>> to
>>>> put such policies out of commission and hasten the day when wider seats
>>>> are
>>>> installed in all classes of service making such policies unnecessary
>>>> and
>>>> giving us additional room for our dogs.
>>>>
>>>> Oh yes! Printing out my boarding pass in Detroit for my return
>>>> flight
>>>> was quite amusing. Before my boarding pass with the extra seat was
>>>> printed
>>>> all of Southwest's computers in Detroit went down for about a half
>>>> hour.
>>>> It
>>>> took 2 CROS,6 ticket agents, and calls to Southwest's Corporate
>>>> Headquarters
>>>> to get the computers in Detroit back up and print my boarding pass. I
>>>> thought to myself in the words of Paul Watson of Whale wars fame, "They
>>>> picked a fight with the wrong passenger!"
>>>>
>>>> This story has one more scary chapter. We changed planes in
>>>> Nashville.
>>>> Before our flight to San Antonio left the ground we heard an awful
>>>> grinding
>>>> sound coming from the lower part of the aircraft. That shook up a few
>>>> passengers. One of them began crying. I have reason to believe that
>>>> Johnny
>>>> must have smelled something unusual as he became wrestless but settled
>>>> down
>>>> once we began climbing and the plane leveled off. I can't help but
>>>> wonder
>>>> if
>>>> he sensed a possible danger and was alerting me to it. The grouchy head
>>>> flight attendant wasn't making things much better. She was rude and
>>>> nasty
>>>> to
>>>> everyone on board. Upon landing in San Antonio we told the pilot what
>>>> we
>>>> heard. He was surprised to learn that we heard the noise before the
>>>> plane
>>>> left the runway and not after we became airborne. Such sounds are heard
>>>> when
>>>> the wheels are retracted in to the belly of the plane during ascent but
>>>> we
>>>> heard that horrible sound before the plane left the ground. To our
>>>> shock
>>>> the
>>>> captain seen unconcerned. Safety you say? To my way of thinking no one
>>>> should have been allowed to set foot on that plane until it was
>>>> inspected
>>>> to
>>>> be sure it was fit to remain in service.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure many of you heard the news a few days later about the
>>>> Southwest
>>>> jet that lost a part of its fuselage. The question that haunts us is
>>>> whether
>>>> or not we may have been on that same plane. If the captain took our
>>>> concerns
>>>> seriously and the aircraft undergone a thorough inspection and the
>>>> problems
>>>> with the plane's fuselage discovered and repaired. that air mishap
>>>> could
>>>> have been prevented.
>>>>
>>>> It's this kind of stuff that has us and many others seeking
>>>> airtravel
>>>> alternatives such as the use of chartered flights. As for guide dogs on
>>>> air
>>>> charters I've heard that many charter companies allow pets to fly in
>>>> the
>>>> cabin with their owners so flying with a guide dog in the cabin
>>>> shouldn't
>>>> be
>>>> an issue. I'm sure we'll have more to say about this in the coming
>>>> months.
>>>> All the best for a great weekend.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 12:23 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am pleased you got your money back.
>>>> Now they embarrassed you because of size not how large the dog was?
>>>> Is this the concern?
>>>> Or because the dog would go in front of the second seat?
>>>> I just need to understand.
>>>> this is where I question the balk head, because no matter the size of
>>>> the dog, they have to go across the feet, they can't go under the seat
>>>> in front of you.
>>>> or they stick out in the isle in balk head.
>>>> thanks for replying so quickly.
>>>> I would be willing to ask my chapter or on the MAB list, if you would
>>>> like me to.
>>>> Asking how folks would feel about a charter plane.
>>>> As long as I understood how folks in Montana would get to the charter.
>>>> I sure would hate to see the plane go down with so many blind persons
>>>> on it though.
>>>> just my thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --Dar
>>>> skype
>>>> dmgina23
>>>> every saint has a past
>>>> every sinner has a future
>>>>
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>>
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>
>
> --
> My blog:
> http://wayneism.blogspot.com
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> www.wayneism.com
> www.whitecaneday.org
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