[nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Sat Aug 29 19:54:08 UTC 2009

Joy,
    I will admit that there are some dogs that are better behaved when they 
are in harness. In such cases, it would be better for the dog to be 
harnessed. I will also agree that we have certain concomitant 
responsibilities with every right. However, these responsibilities are 
present whether our dog is in harness or not. Even in harness, I have seen 
guide dog that are ill-behaved. Public accommodations need to know that they 
can refuse access under such circumstances. Once again, the harness is not 
what gives the person the right of access with the dog, it is its traning.

fraternally yours,
Marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joy Relton" <jrelton at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness


> This is all true. However, the dogs have a higher level of responsibility
> and behavior when in harness. This is why we don't allow petting, handling
> in anyway or talking to our dogs while in harness. I think that it is wise
> to keep your dog in harness while in public and using the dog as a general
> rule. While seated on the plane, if one likes, of course, one can take the
> harness off. I do caution that users whose dogs misbehave may not be able 
> to
> stay in such public places with their dogs, so it is too the advantage of
> all if we maintain proper care, discipline, and management of our dogs. 
> I.e.
> dogs allowed to wander in a restaurant and the like. In short, with a 
> right
> comes a responsibility.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:22 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
>
> Cindy,
>
> Marion is correct, legally no harness is required to gain public access. 
> It
>
> is the training that makes a service dog, not the equipment.
>
> The ADA doesn't distinguish the different types of service dogs...service
> dogs for people in wheelchairs, hearing alert dogs etc. The ADA defines a
> service animal as any specially trained animal whose trained behavior
> mitigates the disability of it's handler.  A guide dog is one type of
> service animal as defined in the ADA.
>
> A hearing alert dog doesn't need any sort of special equipment to do it's
> job.    The equipment needs of different types of service dogs  vary quite 
> a
>
> bit and even with the same type of service dog the equipment still varies
> with the specific needs of the handler.
>
> All that said, I still have ethical issues with taking a guide dog into
> public places with no harness and not using the dog as a guide.
>
> JMHO
> Julie
>
>
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
>
>>I don't see how the harness cannot be required. If what you are saying
>>is  true, then anybody can march into anywhere without a harness. You
>>could  have  a well behaved dog, or an under achieer for a service dog,
>>and who would  know the difference? I don't mean to be argumentative
>>because you may well  know more about this than do I, but that seems
>>like it wouldn't make  sense.
>> No school ever told me that I had to have a harness on either; and TSE
>> encourages taking the thing off when you are on the plane, especially 
>> with
>> young dogs. I leave mine on because it seems so cramped to get it back 
>> on,
>> specially when the flights I have are so close together.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:09 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>>
>>
>> Angie,
>>    Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline
>> may make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I
>> chose to travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the
>> airline could not deny me access. The harness does not make a service
>> dog; its training does.
>> Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have 
>> the
>> right of access with their dogs
>>    Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
>> otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to be
>> afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal
>> law
>> requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
>> state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra
>> seat
>>
>>
>>> Wayne,
>>>
>>> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will
>>> consider ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can
>>> simply remove the harness handle, it will easily fit in the space
>>> between a window seat and the inside wall of the plane. This will
>>> allow both the human and dog to enjoy more room while they fly, while
>>> reducing the chances that a flight attendant would seek to remove the
>>> harness from the dog's owner.
>>>
>>> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness
>>> at all times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with
>>> such policies
>>> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>>>
>>> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you
>>> agree with me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to
>>> someone at Seeing
>>> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Wayne Merritt
>>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>
>>> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
>>> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away
>>> from blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up
>>> and hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I
>>> missed this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been
>>> asked a few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even
>>> explained to one persont that the cane was securely between my window
>>> seat and the inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't
>>> going anywhere. I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up
>>> my cane, with the flight attendant in question assuring me that she
>>> would put my cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the
>>> flight, but this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>>>
>>> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
>>> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
>>> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness.
>>> I chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat
>>> with potentially more room in the first class area, though we are
>>> still talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the
>>> incidents of giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a
>>> harness was similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able
>>> to get the harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like
>>> something was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to
>>> show the flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the
>>> plane, but no dice. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Hth,
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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