[nagdu] "service dog" or not.
Michael Hingson
mhingson at sbcglobal.net
Sat Aug 29 19:55:41 UTC 2009
Dan,
I do not say the harness makes the dog a service animal nor do I say it does
not. Training is the requirement specified by the ADA.
However, the reality is that if my dog is out of my control and is nowhere
in a position to act or immediately act in its service capacity it may well
be that the courts may someday rule that a
"service dog" is a service dog when it is working or under the control of
its owner.
I am saying that no matter what we would like it is not as clear cut as
"training makes the service dog" and nothing else matters.
If I take the harness off the dog at a restaurant but keep the dog on leash
of course it is a service or assistance dog. However, if I let that same
dog run around the restaurant then the dog is not performing a service and
is in fact a nuisance and can be removed under the law. Yes it is still a
service dog in our eyes, and perhaps under the ADA. Do we really want to
test this?
The harness does not provide a magic bullet, but it is part of what makes up
our guide dogs. As I said before the running loose guide dog on the beach
might well be challenged as a service dog in that instance. We have a
responsibility to control and manage our dogs. We must be careful not to
push the envelope too much.
The Michael Hingson Group
“Speaking with Vision”
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com
for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Dan Weiner
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 8:42 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.
Your points are well-taken, but do we want to be so pedantic that we say "as
soon as I take the harness off, I'm not allowed" say on a plane or in a
restaurant.
Life is difficult enough without making it more difficult and sometimes
practicality must win over what some perceive as the letter of the law.
If I fold my cane and put it by me on the seat, is it no longer considered a
mobility device?
This mysticism about a harness is propagated by no less than our schools
and we blind people seem to eat it up hook line and sinker.
In the same way, a harness is not an automatic urine inhibitor, nor does the
mere dawning of a harness guarantee our dog's perfect behavior--smile
Saying "the harness is my dog's business suit" is something I think that
started to dissuade the public from interfering with us.
The harness is a communication and guiding device.
I'm not trying to be cantankerous, just expressing a long-held opinion.
Cordially,
Dan W. and you know who, the Dog Nut, Carter
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Michael Hingson
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:32 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.
Hi all,
I would love to hear from Craig Bourne or some legal expert speak to this
topic. I think Marion may be sort of technically correct, but training
alone cannot make a "service dog" a "service dog".
For example, given the discussion of a few weeks ago if I allow my guide dog
to run uncontrolled on a beach can I invoke the fact that it is a "service
dog" if an official suddenly demands that I pay a fee for the dog to be on
the beach. I think I as a blind guide dog user would have a difficult time
getting out of paying such a fee since the dog is no longer under my direct
control and it is not being used as a "service dog".
Or try this one. If I take my guide to a dog park where I let her run free
and she is attacked by other dogs in the part can I invoke a dog attack law
which provides for penalties concerning attacking a "service animal"? I
think anyone attempting to do such would have a very difficult time
collecting for damages.
Finally, this whole discussion bring to the forefront the entire issue of
support animals. "Oh, my snake has learned to warn me of seizures", or "of
course this is a service animal which has been trained to help me pick up
items as I cannot bend over to do that for myself".
Having a harness does not in of itself make a dog a "service dog". Likewise
just because we say a dog is trained or even if it has been trained by a
school it is not a service dog unless we use it as such. We live in a world
where we need to think realisticly. I think that if case law develops
addressing these issues we will find that training alone may not be enough
in certain situations. I don't like that as training should be enough so
long as I am using my dog appropriately.
Best,
Mike Hingson
The Michael Hingson Group
“Speaking with Vision”
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com
for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:09 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
Angie,
Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline may
make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I chose to
travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the airline could not
deny me access. The harness does not make a service dog; its training does.
Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have the
right of access with their dogs
Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to be
afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal law
requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
----- Original Message -----
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra seat
> Wayne,
>
> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will consider
> ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can simply remove the
> harness handle, it will easily fit in the space between a window seat and
> the inside wall of the plane. This will allow both the human and dog to
> enjoy more room while they fly, while reducing the chances that a flight
> attendant would seek to remove the harness from the dog's owner.
>
> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness at
> all
> times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with such
> policies
> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>
> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you agree
> with
> me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to someone at Seeing
> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Wayne Merritt
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>
> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>
> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
> no dice. Thoughts?
>
> Hth,
> Wayne
>
>
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