[nagdu] dog corrections

[Tamara Smith-Kinney]

Julie,
Well put.  I find the Halti -- another brand for the same thing as the
Gentle Leader -- curbs a lot of snottiness, although Mitzi has been known to
put on enough 'tude to ignore and resist it.  For the most part, it is a
good reminder to pay attention and mind her manners.  I've stopped using it
full-time, though, and seem to have an impressive knack of not having it on
my person when we go into high-stimulus situations, so I have to improvise.

Gary, since you've been asking specifically about poodles and their kin, I
will tell you that poodles do not do well with negative correction.  Jenine
can tell you more about how her school has adapted their raising and
training methods to the poodle temperament, but I have found myself making
some of the same choices with my girl.  She has considerable self-confidence
and gungho and get up and go...  In other words, I think she would be
considered a strong dog.  Very independent minded and intuitive with a
wonderfully quick intelligence to size up new situations and come to the
right conclusion.  It's wonderful, and I love it.

The flip side is that she is an absolute snot when she wants to be, even
when her excitement isn't getting the better of her.  So in the situations
Julie describes -- the dog being bad on purpose, when she knows better -- I,
too, would use a negative correction as a reminder to get back on track and
lose the 'tude.  Except that Mitzi just gets oppositional and behaves as
badly as she possibly can.  If I try to force the issue by upping the level
of negative correction, she melts down.

You do not want to find yourself standing in the middle of the sidewalk with
a melted poodle!  Even if you're just on a training walk and don't actually
have someplace to be.  /smile/

So dealing with her on distracto or high-excitement days requires a certain
amount of creativity on my part.  Having her favorite good dog treats on
hand goes a long way to ensure her cooperation.  I do use the click with
only intermittent treat followup, and she will even refuse a treat when it's
offered.  But it had better be there to be offered, and it had better be
worthy of her!  I've been using kibble, since I've been too poor for the
"real" treats, but that's not good enough.  I am trying to experiment with
something nummy that doesn't end up too sticky to put in the pocket, with
limited success.  Sometime today or tomorrow, though, we will be definitely
heading up to the feed store for a big bag of Mini's.  Daisy has become
nearly as snooty about treats as Mitzi -- if not moreso -- so the darn
things are now essential to the peace and tranquility of the household.
/grin/

Anyway, I sometimes use "obedience exercises" to get her back on track, with
heavy application of treats to start.  This sometimes works, but not always.
I've had better luck with doing circles, falling back on my horse training
days, but then it occurred to me that's a bad idea for a blind person with a
guide dog.  D'oh.  If she's overeager, just making her stop and stand or sit
when she wants to go, go helps a lot.  Embarrassing her in front of a crowd
of admirers works magic.  She hates to look bad in front of her public.
Silly dog.

The other day, when she was being guardy over her backpack, I suddenly
realized that one of my friends was holding her leash and that I was
oriented enough to just turn my back and walk away from her -- with the
coveted pack, of course.  So I spoke in an angry tone, and just left in a
huff, then dug around in the pack with my back to her.  This caused her some
anxiety, and she was pretty restless when we moved on and then when we sat
down to eat.  But she did mind her manners with the other dog.  It took her
awhile to settle down to a steady pace even in the heat on the trails, but
her work was good and I loved just chugging along through the woods.

So on the way back, I got a little tired and sloppy and managed to turn my
ankle just a bit on the edge of the path...  So I said a bad word, not even
to Mitzi, just a response to the twinge, and she melted down.  That hasn't
happened in forever.  So there we were while our friends went cheerfully
(and wearily and hotly) on.  While I jollied Mitzi up and offered her some
pocket kibble, which she took out of principle, and then we were ready to
get going again -- only she was still anxious and over-eager to please, so
when I said, "Let's catch up," she wanted to cut across country to avoid the
bend in the trail, with me and my ouchy ankle in tow.  It took us a bit to
get back in sync, but then we went smoothly again the rest of the way.

She also picks up my mood like you wouldn't believe.  So we haven't done bus
and train and crowds for awhile, so I was feeling a bit unsettled, having to
repeatedly remind myself to trust my dog and just go with her because she
knows what she's doing.  I did discover from the excursion that I am healthy
enough now to do some downtown solos without losing a day or two to recover.
Yay!  We definitely do need the practice -- me, more than her.

I don't know if any of that is helpful, but it does demonstrate some things
about the poodle temperament.  Why do I put up with such a temperamental
little brat, you may wonder.  Actually, I did as I was writing it.  /lol/
The need for serious correction is really rare and getting rarer as she
continues into adulthood.  She is, in fact, utterly fantastic and I adore
her.  When she's not a pain the, well, you know!

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 6:08 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] dog corrections

Gary,

First I need to tell you that I do use clicker training with my dogs, but I 
am not exclusively using clicker methods. I will use a punitive correction 
if the behavior warrants it.  Clicker training in it's purest form does not 
use punitive "corrections".  Misbehavior is handled through various 
means...teaching an incompatible behavior, ignoring the incorrect behavior 
or reinforcing the correct behavior...there are probably others I am 
forgetting.  I am by no means an expert on clicker methods.

Also I owner train my dogs.  I do what I do because it works for me.  I make

no assertions that my methods will work for anyone else.

I teach new behaviors using clicker training.  I work on those behaviors 
using positive reinforcement until the dog shows proficiency.  If the dog 
has been doing a behavior correctly for some time and then chooses to goof 
off I will use a collar correction.  Right now Monty is wearing a martingale

collar.  Three quarters of the collar is nylon webbing, with the top portion

being a loop of chain.  The leash attaches to this loop of chain and when 
you pull the leash it tightens the collar.  It is a pretty mild collar 
correction as things go.  I also use a Gentle Leader collar in some 
situations.

I try my very best to teach a new behavior with enough variations, in enough

different settings, with enough different distractions that the dog is truly

fluent in the behavior.  I don't correct for mistakes where I feel that the 
dog hasn't truly mastered the skill yet.  But once he has demonstrated that 
he can carry out a particular behavior in a variety of situations I follow 
the following checklist for "corrections".
*Has he truly mastered this skill? If no I practice teaching the behavior 
with the clicker.
*Verbal reminder of what I want example of giving a "forward" command.  I 
think most of the schools would use "hup up" or something similar.
*Verbal correction like no or leave it.
*Stop and refocus-sometimes he just needs to look at something for a bit so 
he can understand what it is other times we need to do some obedience 
exercises.
*Collar correction.
*Leave the situation.  Sometimes the best thing is to just plain not go 
there.  There is a particular dog  that is related to Cujo that lives about 
two blocks from my house.  This dog is absolutely insane, running back and 
forth at the fence, barking, growling, lunging...The fence borders the 
sidewalk.  I never walk on that side of the street. It's just asking for 
problems.

And of course I do not always use the above list in that particular order. 
It depends on what is going on, how  off track Monty is and how clearly I am

thinking. I'd also like to add that Monty is an extremely confident and 
bold dog.  Many people refer to dog personalities as being soft or 
hard...Monty is a pretty hard dog.

HTH
Julie 



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