[nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Marion & Martin swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Sat Aug 29 22:37:58 UTC 2009


Peter & Angie,
    when I travel, even around town, I generally carry my telescopic cane 
with me as a precaution. Especially when I fly, I want to have my cane with 
me in case of an emergency!

Marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness


> Hello Angie and listers,
>
> And the problems it can cause the guide dog user in the event of an
> emergency evacuation.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
>
> This is all true. But we are talking about the ACAA, not the ADA, as far 
> as
> airlines are concerned. State laws are irrelevant also. I have to admit 
> that
> I am not as familiar with the ACAA, so I don't know if it contains the 
> same
> provisions. Even if an airline cannot legally require a service animal to
> wear whatever equipment is necessary for it to do its job, I think that a
> quick-release handle could provide handlers with a quick, easy way to make
> things more comfortable for the dog (and the human) without causing the
> problems that sometimes occur with airline staff when the entire harness 
> is
> removed.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:22 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
> Cindy,
>
> Marion is correct, legally no harness is required to gain public access. 
> It
>
> is the training that makes a service dog, not the equipment.
>
> The ADA doesn't distinguish the different types of service dogs...service
> dogs for people in wheelchairs, hearing alert dogs etc. The ADA defines a
> service animal as any specially trained animal whose trained behavior
> mitigates the disability of it's handler.  A guide dog is one type of
> service animal as defined in the ADA.
>
> A hearing alert dog doesn't need any sort of special equipment to do it's
> job.    The equipment needs of different types of service dogs  vary quite 
> a
>
> bit and even with the same type of service dog the equipment still varies
> with the specific needs of the handler.
>
> All that said, I still have ethical issues with taking a guide dog into
> public places with no harness and not using the dog as a guide.
>
> JMHO
> Julie
>
>
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
>
>>I don't see how the harness cannot be required. If what you are saying is
>> true, then anybody can march into anywhere without a harness. You could
>> have
>> a well behaved dog, or an under achieer for a service dog, and who would
>> know the difference? I don't mean to be argumentative because you may 
>> well
>> know more about this than do I, but that seems like it wouldn't make
>> sense.
>> No school ever told me that I had to have a harness on either; and TSE
>> encourages taking the thing off when you are on the plane, especially 
>> with
>> young dogs. I leave mine on because it seems so cramped to get it back 
>> on,
>> specially when the flights I have are so close together.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:09 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>>
>>
>> Angie,
>>    Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline may
>> make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I chose to
>> travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the airline could
>> not
>> deny me access. The harness does not make a service dog; its training
>> does.
>> Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have 
>> the
>> right of access with their dogs
>>    Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
>> otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to be
>> afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal
>> law
>> requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
>> state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra
>> seat
>>
>>
>>> Wayne,
>>>
>>> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will 
>>> consider
>>> ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can simply remove
>>> the
>>> harness handle, it will easily fit in the space between a window seat 
>>> and
>>> the inside wall of the plane. This will allow both the human and dog to
>>> enjoy more room while they fly, while reducing the chances that a flight
>>> attendant would seek to remove the harness from the dog's owner.
>>>
>>> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness at
>>> all
>>> times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with such
>>> policies
>>> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>>>
>>> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you agree
>>> with
>>> me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to someone at
>>> Seeing
>>> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Wayne Merritt
>>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>
>>> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
>>> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
>>> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
>>> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
>>> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
>>> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
>>> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
>>> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
>>> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
>>> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
>>> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
>>> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>>>
>>> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
>>> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
>>> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
>>> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
>>> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
>>> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
>>> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
>>> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
>>> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
>>> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
>>> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
>>> no dice. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Hth,
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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