[nagdu] "service dog" or not.

Sun Aug 30 17:30:45 UTC 2009

Let us hope that's right!

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:00 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.

Cindy,
    I do not agree with you. I have had conversations with attorneys from 
the DOJ and have been told, in no uncertain terms, that any such 
requirements, certifications, documentations, or the like will ever be 
required!

Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.

>I think the day is coming when we will be required to show identification
> that shows our dog is a trained service dog because of the kinds of things
> Mike has stated--my snake protects me; I need this Chihuahua to keep me
> destressed; and on and on. It's been close at times already, and if people
> can just walk into a place or onto a plane with no harness and no 
> particular
> identification that the dog is a service animal, I think we are headed for
> an ID, and it would be a state ID because how else would you be able to
> verify it?
> Cindy Lou
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:31 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would love to hear from Craig Bourne or some legal expert speak to this
> topic.  I think Marion may be sort of technically correct, but training
> alone cannot make a "service dog" a "service dog".
>
> For example, given the discussion of a few weeks ago if I allow my guide 
> dog
> to run uncontrolled on a beach can I invoke the fact that it is a "service
> dog" if an official suddenly demands that I pay a fee for the dog to be on
> the beach.  I think I as a blind guide dog user would have a difficult 
> time
> getting out of paying such a fee since the dog is no longer under my 
> direct
> control and it is not being used as a "service dog".
>
> Or try this one.  If I take my guide to a dog park where I let her run 
> free
> and she is attacked by other dogs in the part can I invoke a dog attack 
> law
> which provides for penalties concerning attacking a "service animal"?  I
> think anyone attempting to do such would have a very difficult time
> collecting for damages.
>
> Finally, this whole discussion bring to the forefront the entire issue of
> support animals.  "Oh, my snake has learned to warn me of seizures", or 
> "of
> course this is a service animal which has been trained to help me pick up
> items as I cannot bend over to do that for myself".
>
> Having a harness does not in of itself make a dog a "service dog". 
> Likewise
> just because we say a dog is trained or even if it has been trained by a
> school it is not a service dog unless we use it as such.  We live in a 
> world
> where we need to think realisticly.  I think that if case law develops
> addressing these issues we will find that training alone may not be enough
> in certain situations.  I don't like that as training should be enough so
> long as I am using my dog appropriately.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Mike Hingson
>
> The Michael Hingson Group
> "Speaking with Vision"
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:09 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
> Angie,
>    Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline may
> make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I chose to
> travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the airline could 
> not
>
> deny me access. The harness does not make a service dog; its training 
> does.
> Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have the
> right of access with their dogs
>    Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
> otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to be
> afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal 
> law
> requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
> state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra 
> seat
>
>
>> Wayne,
>>
>> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will consider
>> ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can simply remove 
>> the
>> harness handle, it will easily fit in the space between a window seat and
>> the inside wall of the plane. This will allow both the human and dog to
>> enjoy more room while they fly, while reducing the chances that a flight
>> attendant would seek to remove the harness from the dog's owner.
>>
>> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness at
>> all
>> times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with such
>> policies
>> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>>
>> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you agree
>> with
>> me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to someone at 
>> Seeing
>> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Wayne Merritt
>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
>> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
>> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
>> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
>> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
>> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
>> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
>> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
>> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
>> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
>> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
>> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>>
>> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
>> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
>> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
>> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
>> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
>> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
>> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
>> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
>> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
>> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
>> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
>> no dice. Thoughts?
>>
>> Hth,
>> Wayne
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson
> ..com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40qwest.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
n.net 

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40comcast
.net