[nagdu] clicker training question

Tue Dec 8 18:48:30 UTC 2009

Sherrill,

Two thoughts...there is a difference in precision.  The click marks the 
*exact* moment the dog has done something you want.  The reward comes after 
the click to reinforce it.  The dog will understand that it is the click 
that marks the wanted behavior though and not the treat.

I have noticed though, that after a dog has been taught many behaviors using 
clicker that he will more easily be able to learn without the click.  It's 
not as precise as with the clicker, but seems to be easier than teaching a 
nonclicker savvy dog.

I think that using clicker training teaches the dog to think and learn.  It 
reinforces active thinking and learning.  While correction based training 
seems to deter the dog from trying new things.

Very interesting stuff.  I wish I had about three dozen dogs to train so I 
could test out all my theories. LOL

Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sherrill O'Brien" <sherrill.obrien at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:53 AM
Subject: [nagdu] clicker training question

>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have a question about clicker training.  I was introduced to it at 
> Seeing
> Eye, and found it fascinating.  I have a friend who is a longtime guide 
> dog
> user who gets her dogs from Fidelco.  They are using this method quite a
> bit.  But my friend often simply gives her dog a small treat when she's
> introducing something new, skipping the clicker part altogether.  If it
> works, why not simply give a treat?  My friend says she only has to do it 
> a
> couple times, the dog gets it, and the treats then go away  since the dog
> understands the desired behavior.  Any thoughts?
>
> Sherrill
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
> Behalf Of Julie J
> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:48 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] clicker training was tripping on bones
>
>
> Tracy,
>
> I don't know of any clicker books that don't focus on the visual aspects 
> of
> clicker training.  That was a really difficult thing for me to get past 
> when
> I first started using clicker methods.  Beginning exercises are usually 
> some
> variation of click when the dog looks at you.  Poor Belle must have been
> very frustrated with me.  I must have tried a dozen nonvisual ways of 
> trying
> to figure out when her head was turned my direction.  None of them worked
> and I pretty much decided that clicker training was not for blind people.
>
> Then someone suggested skipping the whole eye contact step and moving
> directly to a nose target.  Success!  We got that figured out in a manner 
> of
> minutes.  Things became much easier after I made the leap from doing 
> exactly
> what the books said to understanding the underlying logic and applying 
> that
> in a way that worked for me and Belle.
>
> I think any of the clicker books available are really good resources to 
> get
> started understanding clicker methods, but for applying that knowledge to
> guide dog training, I'd highly recommend joining an email group on the
> topic. The group that Anne has on Smart Groups is very good.  There is one
> on Yahoo groups that is very good too, but my computer isn't cooperating 
> at
> the moment so I can't bring up the subscription info.  It's blind and vi
> clicker trainers, searching Yahoo groups should find it.
>
> HTH
> Julie
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] tripping on bones
>
>
>> "Don't Shoot the Dog" is available from Bookshare.
>>
>> It seems to me to rely very heavily on seeing what is happening, though.
>>
>> Or maybe the problem is that Ben is smarter than I am, so he has trained
>> me, instead of the other way around.
>> Tracy
>>
>>> Rox!  I'm surprised that you, of all people,  suggest a P- solution to
>>> the
>>> problem of inconveniently abandoned shoes!
>>>
>>> Albert, for a more "positive reinforcement-type solution--you might
>>> simply
>>> try to notice the rare occasions when he tosses his shoes in the
>>> direction
>>> of where you would like them to land, and immediately reward him with
>>> something he really likes.  You don't even have to tell him what the
>>> reward
>>> is for; let him figure it out.  (This is the "sneaky" method.)
>>> Or, for a more straightforward approach, you could identify the place
>>> where
>>> you want him to put the shoes, and reward him immediately whenever the
>>> shoes
>>> hit that spot.  In order for you to know when the shoes have "hit the
>>> spot,"
>>> you might want to have some sort of sound-producing device that will let
>>> you
>>> know that the shoes have landed on the spot!
>>>
>>> For tips on training all sorts of beings, Karen Pryor's book, "Don't
>>> Shoot
>>> the Dog" is still one of the best resources, and very readable.
>>>
>>> Have fun training!
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 12:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] tripping on bones
>>>
>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>>
>>>> next time he does it, just hide the shoes.  He'll learn quick!
>>>>
>>>> My dogs also hide stuff outside.  My current working guide, Laveau a
>>>> Doberman loves her harness, she will take it to her bed and snuggle
>>>> with
>>>> it until it is time to go to work again.  I have to put it up  high so
>>>> she'll leave it alone.  The other day I was getting ready to  throw my
>>>> harness in the wash and set it down to collect more laundry.   In a
>>>> flash
>>>> she stole it and hid it.  I had to send my golden in to  find it, which
>>>> she did.  Mill'E, my golden keeps me organized.  If I  didn't have her
>>>> I'd
>>>> be in a lot of trouble! *grin*
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/annedie%40nycap.rr.co
> m
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream.
> net
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sherrill.obrien%40ver
> izon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream.net
> 