[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Albert J Rizzi albert at myblindspot.org
Sun Dec 27 04:50:09 UTC 2009 

I do not see where you could conclude that alert dogs would not be
considered service animals under this regulation. It does not rule out in
any way service animals who perform or do not perform specific tasks such as
alert dogs do.  I did not see the same verbiage "including but not limited
to" which would be as clear to me as it was when presented by Steven.  I can
see how, if left to strict interpretation, trainers of guides could be
denied access, which is where we started this chat initially.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:33 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Albert,
    Let us know if you get an answer that is substantially different from 
what they provide on their website concerning this.

http://ada.gov/svcanimb.htm



Fraternally yours,

Marion






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


>I suppose that is one opinion, but including but not limited to opens the
> door for interpretation.  I have a call into the DJO to clarify this
> position and will offer a more authoritative  answer soon.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:28 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> albert,
>    The authoritative word is from the Department of Justice which states
> that a service animal is an animal individually trained to do work or
> perform tasks for a person with a disability. It is the task oriented
> training that makes a service animal such under the law. The DOJ's 
> Business
> Brief clearly states that, in regard to seizure disorder, a service animal
> "alerts and protects" a person with a seizure disorder. If the Department
> intended only for an alert, they would have used the conjunction "or". I
> believe the use of the "and" conjunction shows the intent of the 
> Department
> to mean both, not either.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>>I find that below, offered by steven earlier, includes the verbiage
>> "included but not limited to" which would cover such animals in instances
>> where they were trained to provide warning for a person diagnosed  and
>> determined to have the disabling condition of epilepcy or some other
>> seizure
>> disorder.  As steven said before, the wording can be as clear as mud. But
>> with a spray bottle and a clean cloth we can see what is intended through
>> the muck and mire.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Marion & Martin
>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 12:40 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> albert,
>>    I am not saying that only guide dogs are legitimate service animals;
>> however, the ADA does not protect animals whose only function is to alert
>> someone to the onset of a seizure disorder. Though I am not an attorney,
>> so
>> my opinion is only that, the ability to alert someone to the onset of a
>> seizure is an innate ability, not a trained task and, as such, is not a
>> service animal. If the animal is trained to perform a task when the onset
>> of
>>
>> a seizure is detected, such as clearing an area around the person, 
>> pulling
>
>> a
>>
>> medical alert device, placing a pillow under the person's head, etc., 
>> then
>> it is a service animal by definition. Similarly, an animal that comforts
>> someone with an anxiety disorder simply by its mere presence, is also not
>> a
>> service animal.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 8:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>>I would think that people with epilepsy and seizure disorders using a
>>> service animal, and I should think the a.d.a. would disagree with your
>>> position that such and animal is not protected or included in this law.
>>> Are
>>> you attempting to say that only dogs used as guides for the blind are 
>>> the
>>> only proper and legal service animals?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 8:00 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>    Some of the animals mentioned in this message are not service animals
>>> as
>>>
>>> defined by the ADA and state laws; therefore, those accompanied by these
>>> animals do not have the protections afforded under such laws. They may,
>>> though, be protected by the FHA.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>>> While we mull over what constitutes  a service animal, lets determine 
>>>> to
>>>> include companions for the emotional and mental health concerns,
>>>> diabetic
>>>> and seizure issues and any multitude   of reasons a medically 
>>>> prescribed
>>>> animal would help one who needs one.
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:35 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> The failure of a og to make it with a person has not much to do with 
>>>> the
>>>> trainer, certified or not. As for service dogs, just what *does*
>>>> constitute
>>>> one really?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 1:37 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would think then we need to qualify and quantify the verbiage  which
>>>> is
>>>> being considered for amendment because all to often trainers of guides
>>>> are
>>>> being denied access.  What would be a suitable wording which would 1.
>>>> protect and ensure that trainers of service animals are included in the
>>>> a.d.a., which as you  yourself presented, can be interpreted to prevent
>>>> such
>>>> access unless and until the service animal is being used by a person
>>>> using
>>>> the same for the intended purpose?  And what of our peers who use
>>>> companions
>>>> for a diagnosable  condition where a companion animal/service animal is
>>>> needed? The manner of the wording at present does not seem to afford
>>>> them
>>>> the same protections, or do they?  I think that trainers should be held
>>>> to
>>>
>>>> a
>>>> higher measure so people like many of those on this list who got bum
>>>> dogs
>>>> do
>>>> not live through that pain again.  there is something to say for the
>>>> consideration of certification  provided that a standard  of national
>>>> proportions  could be meaningful.
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Steve Johnson
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:14 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> Hi Cindy,
>>>>
>>>> PWD = People or Persons with disabilities.
>>>>
>>>> I think that the points being made are very strong, and the
>>>> certification
>>>> issue does not broaden as Albert eluded to, but does indeed restrict 
>>>> the
>>>> definition of who who could eventually access a place of public
>>>> accommodation.
>>>>
>>>> So, if only a certified trainer, which the points are well-expressed on
>>>> this, is allowed to access a place of public accommodation, then
>>>> would'nt
>>>> this essentially mean that unless an animal trained by a certified
>>>> entity
>>>> could only then access a place of public accommodation?
>>>>
>>>> There are a lot of frauds out there, and again we are speaking about
>>>> places
>>>> of public accommodation.  The fair housing amendments act already
>>>> provides
>>>> for any person to have an emotional support, or even companion animals
>>>> in
>>>> Federal assisted housing, and this can also move into private housing
>>>> where
>>>> emotional support animals can be granted access through a request for
>>>> reasonable accommodation.  The underlying problem is that these are not
>>>> highly trained animals that are specifically trained to provide a
>>>> functional
>>>> support/service for the individual whether it be through a professional
>>>> entity or an individual who chooses to self-train.
>>>>
>>>> I have to disagree with Albert in that his comment that this would
>>>> expand
>>>> the coverage of access as it clearly discriminates against those who
>>>> self-train and again, I will point out that this language is
>>>> specifically
>>>> stated in the ADA.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, if the word certification were deleted from this, then we
>>>> are
>>>> where we are at now, and is this a bad thing?
>>>>
>>>> While this proposed legislation specifically addresses service animals,
>>>> the
>>>> problem herein is that it creates this slippery slope that I mention in
>>>> that
>>>> there will be a push like you have never seen by other groups to expand
>>>> and
>>>> include emotional support, therapy, and companion animals.  Mark my
>>>> word.
>>>>
>>>> Let's go back to the intent of the ADA, and you will further understand
>>>> that
>>>> this narrows, not expands as these other types of animals are not
>>>> providing
>>>> a service.  A support yes, a service no.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:20 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What is PWD?
>>>>>
>>>>> And you make a good point. Who certifies? If the schools where the
>>>>> people
>>>>> train certify them, then what about these independents, particularly
>>>>> those
>>>>> who train their own dogs. And, of course, NAC was a certification
>>>>> outfit
>>>>> that certified places, but any of us who knows the history of NAC 
>>>>> knows
>>>>> what
>>>>> certification meant for agencies and schools serving the bolind. So 
>>>>> why
>>>>> bother if you can't certify better than that? Suppose the Guide Dog
>>>>> School
>>>>> Association, whose official name I don't remember, certified trainers?
>>>>> Would
>>>>> they be willing to certify an independent, and would such a person be
>>>>> willing to do that (be certified by such a certifying body?)
>>>>>
>>>>> CL
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and who certifies the trainers?
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no certifying body for dog trainers.  If I want to call
>>>>> myself a dog trainer, I can.  There are outfits like CPDT who are
>>>>> trying to certify pet dog trainers but it's all voluntary.  The guide
>>>>> and service dogs, with the exception of California, may "certify"
>>>>> their trainers but it's about as valuable as the paper it's printed 
>>>>> on.
>>>>>
>>>>> California "certifies" it's trainers but frankly, I would hate to see
>>>>> an outfit like the California guide dog board become the norm.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also think it's a step awy from certifying trainers to certifying
>>>>> PWD.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40qwest.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/stevencjohnson%40cent
>>>> urytel.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 9.0.722 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date:
>>>> 12/25/09
>>>> 03:33:00
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
>>>> org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40qwest.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
>>>> org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
>>> n.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
>>> org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
>> n.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
>> org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
n.net 


_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
org

More information about the NAGDU mailing list