[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Marion & Martin swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Sun Dec 27 10:42:39 UTC 2009


Albert,
    The Americans with Disabilities Act is a federal civil law. Law 
enforcement is not empowered to enforce such laws. By creating state 
criminal statutes, we can then seek law enforcement intervention and 
criminal remedies to protect our civil rights.

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


> Another thought came to mind. If federal law trumps state law, and we have 
> a
> federal white cane law, as we should, why do you feel the states need to
> adopt this law rather then be bound by it?
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:19 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Albert,
>    The NFB drafted the model white cane law in the 1960s. The challenge 
> has
>
> been getting the state legislatures on board with it, resulting in many
> variations of the law. For the past several years we have been doing our
> best to get the states to adopt the provisions of the ADA as state law and
> criminalizing offenses in order to allow law enforcement to resolve access
> issues more effectively. Not all legislatures feel criminalization is an
> effective means to resolve this.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> Sorry for the crossed email. Let me look at this. Maybe what we need to 
>> do
>> as an organization is draft a bill to be introduced to each states
>> legislative body so as to have consistency  from one state to another.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Marion & Martin
>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:24 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> Albert,
>>    I believe that Florida's law is one of the best, though not perfect. I
>> have attached it for your information.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>> And which states afford the best interpretation and protections which 
>>> was
>>> layed through the establishment of the acts of 73 and 90>?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:05 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> If we think a specific state needs to strengthen its laws concerning us,
>>> then each of us in those states need to lobby our legislatures for that,
>>> and
>>>
>>> if necessary, we can bring in experts from NAGDU.
>>> Cindy Lou
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 1:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>> True, but when and where could we as an organization facilitate that to
>>> happen on a state by state basis, when and where necessary?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 12:25 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> Buddy,
>>>    As I stated in my previous message, this is the difficulty I have 
>>> with
>>> this proposed legislation. Once we open the proverbial can of worms to
>>> those
>>>
>>> who are not disabled, where would it lead? I think it is best to allow
>>> the
>>> states to allow trainers access, rather than to place it in a federal 
>>> law
>>> prohibiting discrimination on the basis of disability.
>>>
>>> Fraternally,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 6:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>>> By the way, before we go a whole bunch further, I think it's important
>>>> that I point up a distinction here. It is not the animal which is
>>>> granted
>>>> or denied access. Not in the law and not in reality. It is, rather, the
>>>> disabled person (or, perhaps, not disabled trainer) who is allowed to 
>>>> be
>>>> accompanied by a task trained service animal (or, perhaps, an animal in
>>>> training for said service related tasks).
>>>>
>>>> That is all.
>>>> --
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 25, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Steve Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think it is best to keep the "companion" animal out of this mix as 
>>>>> it
>>>>> is
>>>>> is defined simply as a pet.  See Delta Society.org, and JAN.wvu.edu.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, this everyone, is where the whole issue of abuse of such a law
>>>>> comes
>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>> to play if such an allowance were to be.  Perhaps, better 
>>>>> understanding
>>>>> of
>>>>> the current laws would be the better approach than trying to fix
>>>>> something
>>>>> that there is no solid evidence that it is even broke?  Albert, you
>>>>> refer
>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> animals being trained that are being denied access.  Please show me 
>>>>> the
>>>>> hard
>>>>> data on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd bet you anything that most formal agencies do not have any problem
>>>>> with
>>>>> accessing places of public accommodation with dogs in training before
>>>>> they
>>>>> are matched with the new master.  All of my guides have been from
>>>>> Leader,
>>>>> and it is amazing how open the communities are in allowing access from
>>>>> everything ranging from restaurants to public transit. These cities 
>>>>> and
>>>>> towns include little ol' Rochester to Detroit.  So, where's the
>>>>> problem,
>>>>> or
>>>>> is this just another piece of make me feel good legislation that will
>>>>> hurt
>>>>> us more than it will actually help us?
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless one can show me that there is an actual need for this with
>>>>> something
>>>>> concrete to back it up, then our tax payer dollars are again being
>>>>> wasted
>>>
>>>>> on
>>>>> a Federal legislator wasting all of our time with something frivelous
>>>>> and
>>>
>>>>> really, nothing to back it up.
>>>>>
>>>>> again, JMO
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 1:37 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would think then we need to qualify and quantify the verbiage 
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> being considered for amendment because all to often trainers of 
>>>>>> guides
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> being denied access.  What would be a suitable wording which would 1.
>>>>>> protect and ensure that trainers of service animals are included in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> a.d.a., which as you  yourself presented, can be interpreted to
>>>>>> prevent
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> access unless and until the service animal is being used by a person
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> the same for the intended purpose?  And what of our peers who use
>>>>>> companions
>>>>>> for a diagnosable  condition where a companion animal/service animal
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> needed? The manner of the wording at present does not seem to afford
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> the same protections, or do they?  I think that trainers should be
>>>>>> held
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> higher measure so people like many of those on this list who got bum
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not live through that pain again.  there is something to say for the
>>>>>> consideration of certification  provided that a standard  of national
>>>>>> proportions  could be meaningful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:14 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Cindy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PWD = People or Persons with disabilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that the points being made are very strong, and the
>>>>>> certification
>>>>>> issue does not broaden as Albert eluded to, but does indeed restrict
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> definition of who who could eventually access a place of public
>>>>>> accommodation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, if only a certified trainer, which the points are well-expressed
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> this, is allowed to access a place of public accommodation, then
>>>>>> would'nt
>>>>>> this essentially mean that unless an animal trained by a certified
>>>>>> entity
>>>>>> could only then access a place of public accommodation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a lot of frauds out there, and again we are speaking about
>>>>>> places
>>>>>> of public accommodation.  The fair housing amendments act already
>>>>>> provides
>>>>>> for any person to have an emotional support, or even companion 
>>>>>> animals
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Federal assisted housing, and this can also move into private housing
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> emotional support animals can be granted access through a request for
>>>>>> reasonable accommodation.  The underlying problem is that these are
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> highly trained animals that are specifically trained to provide a
>>>>>> functional
>>>>>> support/service for the individual whether it be through a
>>>>>> professional
>>>>>> entity or an individual who chooses to self-train.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to disagree with Albert in that his comment that this would
>>>>>> expand
>>>>>> the coverage of access as it clearly discriminates against those who
>>>>>> self-train and again, I will point out that this language is
>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>> stated in the ADA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, if the word certification were deleted from this, then 
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> where we are at now, and is this a bad thing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While this proposed legislation specifically addresses service
>>>>>> animals,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> problem herein is that it creates this slippery slope that I mention
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> there will be a push like you have never seen by other groups to
>>>>>> expand
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> include emotional support, therapy, and companion animals.  Mark my
>>>>>> word.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's go back to the intent of the ADA, and you will further
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> this narrows, not expands as these other types of animals are not
>>>>>> providing
>>>>>> a service.  A support yes, a service no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:20 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is PWD?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And you make a good point. Who certifies? If the schools where the
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> train certify them, then what about these independents, particularly
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> who train their own dogs. And, of course, NAC was a certification
>>>>>>> outfit
>>>>>>> that certified places, but any of us who knows the history of NAC
>>>>>>> knows
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> certification meant for agencies and schools serving the bolind. So
>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>> bother if you can't certify better than that? Suppose the Guide Dog
>>>>>>> School
>>>>>>> Association, whose official name I don't remember, certified
>>>>>>> trainers?
>>>>>>> Would
>>>>>>> they be willing to certify an independent, and would such a person 
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> willing to do that (be certified by such a certifying body?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Pawpower Pack"
>>>>>>> <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:15 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and who certifies the trainers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no certifying body for dog trainers.  If I want to call
>>>>>>> myself a dog trainer, I can.  There are outfits like CPDT who are
>>>>>>> trying to certify pet dog trainers but it's all voluntary.  The 
>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>> and service dogs, with the exception of California, may "certify"
>>>>>>> their trainers but it's about as valuable as the paper it's printed
>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> California "certifies" it's trainers but frankly, I would hate to 
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> an outfit like the California guide dog board become the norm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think it's a step awy from certifying trainers to certifying
>>>>>>> PWD.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, 
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>
>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
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