[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Marion & Martin swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Sun Dec 27 22:37:19 UTC 2009


Albert,
    I am trying to answer your questionhs as best I CAN. It seems as if, 
rather than seeking information, you only wish to find someone to confirm 
your faulty assumptions.

Marion Gwizdala

.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


>I thought you were not a lawyer trained and educated as such. There seems 
>to
> be a flaw in what you just said. If it is true, which I doubt, what 
> purpose
> would passing any law at the federal level do for our citizens. I mean
> really. What you just said would lead to anarchy.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 5:43 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Albert,
>    The Americans with Disabilities Act is a federal civil law. Law
> enforcement is not empowered to enforce such laws. By creating state
> criminal statutes, we can then seek law enforcement intervention and
> criminal remedies to protect our civil rights.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> Another thought came to mind. If federal law trumps state law, and we 
>> have
>
>> a
>> federal white cane law, as we should, why do you feel the states need to
>> adopt this law rather then be bound by it?
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Marion & Martin
>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:19 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> Albert,
>>    The NFB drafted the model white cane law in the 1960s. The challenge
>> has
>>
>> been getting the state legislatures on board with it, resulting in many
>> variations of the law. For the past several years we have been doing our
>> best to get the states to adopt the provisions of the ADA as state law 
>> and
>> criminalizing offenses in order to allow law enforcement to resolve 
>> access
>> issues more effectively. Not all legislatures feel criminalization is an
>> effective means to resolve this.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>> Sorry for the crossed email. Let me look at this. Maybe what we need to
>>> do
>>> as an organization is draft a bill to be introduced to each states
>>> legislative body so as to have consistency  from one state to another.
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:24 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> Albert,
>>>    I believe that Florida's law is one of the best, though not perfect. 
>>> I
>>> have attached it for your information.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:53 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>>> And which states afford the best interpretation and protections which
>>>> was
>>>> layed through the establishment of the acts of 73 and 90>?
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:05 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> If we think a specific state needs to strengthen its laws concerning 
>>>> us,
>>>> then each of us in those states need to lobby our legislatures for 
>>>> that,
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> if necessary, we can bring in experts from NAGDU.
>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 1:05 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True, but when and where could we as an organization facilitate that to
>>>> happen on a state by state basis, when and where necessary?
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 12:25 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> Buddy,
>>>>    As I stated in my previous message, this is the difficulty I have
>>>> with
>>>> this proposed legislation. Once we open the proverbial can of worms to
>>>> those
>>>>
>>>> who are not disabled, where would it lead? I think it is best to allow
>>>> the
>>>> states to allow trainers access, rather than to place it in a federal
>>>> law
>>>> prohibiting discrimination on the basis of disability.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 6:45 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> By the way, before we go a whole bunch further, I think it's important
>>>>> that I point up a distinction here. It is not the animal which is
>>>>> granted
>>>>> or denied access. Not in the law and not in reality. It is, rather, 
>>>>> the
>>>>> disabled person (or, perhaps, not disabled trainer) who is allowed to
>>>>> be
>>>>> accompanied by a task trained service animal (or, perhaps, an animal 
>>>>> in
>>>>> training for said service related tasks).
>>>>>
>>>>> That is all.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 25, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Steve Johnson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is best to keep the "companion" animal out of this mix as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> is defined simply as a pet.  See Delta Society.org, and JAN.wvu.edu.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, this everyone, is where the whole issue of abuse of such a law
>>>>>> comes
>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> to play if such an allowance were to be.  Perhaps, better
>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the current laws would be the better approach than trying to fix
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> that there is no solid evidence that it is even broke?  Albert, you
>>>>>> refer
>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> animals being trained that are being denied access.  Please show me
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> hard
>>>>>> data on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd bet you anything that most formal agencies do not have any 
>>>>>> problem
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> accessing places of public accommodation with dogs in training before
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are matched with the new master.  All of my guides have been from
>>>>>> Leader,
>>>>>> and it is amazing how open the communities are in allowing access 
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> everything ranging from restaurants to public transit. These cities
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> towns include little ol' Rochester to Detroit.  So, where's the
>>>>>> problem,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> is this just another piece of make me feel good legislation that will
>>>>>> hurt
>>>>>> us more than it will actually help us?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless one can show me that there is an actual need for this with
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> concrete to back it up, then our tax payer dollars are again being
>>>>>> wasted
>>>>
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> a Federal legislator wasting all of our time with something frivelous
>>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>>> really, nothing to back it up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> again, JMO
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 1:37 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would think then we need to qualify and quantify the verbiage
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> being considered for amendment because all to often trainers of
>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> being denied access.  What would be a suitable wording which would 
>>>>>>> 1.
>>>>>>> protect and ensure that trainers of service animals are included in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> a.d.a., which as you  yourself presented, can be interpreted to
>>>>>>> prevent
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> access unless and until the service animal is being used by a person
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>> the same for the intended purpose?  And what of our peers who use
>>>>>>> companions
>>>>>>> for a diagnosable  condition where a companion animal/service animal
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> needed? The manner of the wording at present does not seem to afford
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> the same protections, or do they?  I think that trainers should be
>>>>>>> held
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> higher measure so people like many of those on this list who got bum
>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not live through that pain again.  there is something to say for the
>>>>>>> consideration of certification  provided that a standard  of 
>>>>>>> national
>>>>>>> proportions  could be meaningful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:14 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Cindy,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PWD = People or Persons with disabilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that the points being made are very strong, and the
>>>>>>> certification
>>>>>>> issue does not broaden as Albert eluded to, but does indeed restrict
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> definition of who who could eventually access a place of public
>>>>>>> accommodation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, if only a certified trainer, which the points are well-expressed
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> this, is allowed to access a place of public accommodation, then
>>>>>>> would'nt
>>>>>>> this essentially mean that unless an animal trained by a certified
>>>>>>> entity
>>>>>>> could only then access a place of public accommodation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a lot of frauds out there, and again we are speaking about
>>>>>>> places
>>>>>>> of public accommodation.  The fair housing amendments act already
>>>>>>> provides
>>>>>>> for any person to have an emotional support, or even companion
>>>>>>> animals
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> Federal assisted housing, and this can also move into private 
>>>>>>> housing
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> emotional support animals can be granted access through a request 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> reasonable accommodation.  The underlying problem is that these are
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> highly trained animals that are specifically trained to provide a
>>>>>>> functional
>>>>>>> support/service for the individual whether it be through a
>>>>>>> professional
>>>>>>> entity or an individual who chooses to self-train.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have to disagree with Albert in that his comment that this would
>>>>>>> expand
>>>>>>> the coverage of access as it clearly discriminates against those who
>>>>>>> self-train and again, I will point out that this language is
>>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>>> stated in the ADA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Furthermore, if the word certification were deleted from this, then
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> where we are at now, and is this a bad thing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While this proposed legislation specifically addresses service
>>>>>>> animals,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> problem herein is that it creates this slippery slope that I mention
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> there will be a push like you have never seen by other groups to
>>>>>>> expand
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> include emotional support, therapy, and companion animals.  Mark my
>>>>>>> word.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's go back to the intent of the ADA, and you will further
>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> this narrows, not expands as these other types of animals are not
>>>>>>> providing
>>>>>>> a service.  A support yes, a service no.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:20 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is PWD?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And you make a good point. Who certifies? If the schools where the
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> train certify them, then what about these independents, 
>>>>>>>> particularly
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> who train their own dogs. And, of course, NAC was a certification
>>>>>>>> outfit
>>>>>>>> that certified places, but any of us who knows the history of NAC
>>>>>>>> knows
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> certification meant for agencies and schools serving the bolind. So
>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>> bother if you can't certify better than that? Suppose the Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> School
>>>>>>>> Association, whose official name I don't remember, certified
>>>>>>>> trainers?
>>>>>>>> Would
>>>>>>>> they be willing to certify an independent, and would such a person
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> willing to do that (be certified by such a certifying body?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Pawpower Pack"
>>>>>>>> <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:15 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and who certifies the trainers?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is no certifying body for dog trainers.  If I want to call
>>>>>>>> myself a dog trainer, I can.  There are outfits like CPDT who are
>>>>>>>> trying to certify pet dog trainers but it's all voluntary.  The
>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>> and service dogs, with the exception of California, may "certify"
>>>>>>>> their trainers but it's about as valuable as the paper it's printed
>>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> California "certifies" it's trainers but frankly, I would hate to
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> an outfit like the California guide dog board become the norm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think it's a step awy from certifying trainers to certifying
>>>>>>>> PWD.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won,
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>
>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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