[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Marion & Martin
swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Sun Dec 27 22:42:39 UTC 2009
Albert,
You can take your passive agressive comments off this list!
Marion Gwizdala
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> Thanks, just thinking when he comes north needs to shift his opinions a
> little.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of cheryl echevarria
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 5:44 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Well why not ask, I got mine from GDF, so did Albert.
>
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> Independent Contractor
> Echevarriatravel.com
> 1-866-580-5574
>
> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
> CST-1018299-10
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marion & Martin<mailto:swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 5:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
> Albert,
> I am not sure of the relevance of this question. However, I got my
> last
> guide from Southeastern Guide Dogs and am getting my next guide from the
> Guide Dog Foundation.
>
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
> > May I ask where you got your last guide from?
> >
> > Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> > CEO/Founder
> > My Blind Spot, Inc.
> > 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> > New York, New York 10004
> > www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
> > PH: 917-553-0347
> > Fax: 212-858-5759
> > "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
> is
> > doing it."
> >
> >
> > Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > Of Marion & Martin
> > Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:24 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >
> > Albert,
> > My assumption is that there is a school that has the ear a senator
> or
> > representative that wants to have these protections in the ADA.
> >
> > Marion
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Albert J Rizzi"
> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >
> >
> >> Ok, so then what is all the fuss about? If the protections are there
> >> then
> >> perhaps someone should let the feds know. Over kill is still over
> kill.
> >> In
> >> your opinion which state affords the best accessibility protections
> and
> >> enforcements of the ADA as the same relates to the topic at hand?
> >> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> >> CEO/Founder
> >> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> >> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> >> New York, New York 10004
> >> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
> >> PH: 917-553-0347
> >> Fax: 212-858-5759
> >> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who
>
> >> is
> >> doing it."
> >>
> >>
> >> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Marion & Martin
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:19 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >>
> >> Albert,
> >> Most states, including New York, have provisions for trainers of
> >> service
> >>
> >> animals already included in their access laws.
> >>
> >> Fraternally yours,
> >> Marion
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
> >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'"
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:05 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >>
> >>
> >>> True, but when and where could we as an organization facilitate that
> to
> >>> happen on a state by state basis, when and where necessary?
> >>>
> >>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> >>> CEO/Founder
> >>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> >>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> >>> New York, New York 10004
> >>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
> >>> PH: 917-553-0347
> >>> Fax: 212-858-5759
> >>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
> who
> >>> is
> >>> doing it."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> Of Marion & Martin
> >>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 12:25 PM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >>>
> >>> Buddy,
> >>> As I stated in my previous message, this is the difficulty I have
> >>> with
> >>> this proposed legislation. Once we open the proverbial can of worms
> to
> >>> those
> >>>
> >>> who are not disabled, where would it lead? I think it is best to
> allow
> >>> the
> >>> states to allow trainers access, rather than to place it in a federal
> >>> law
> >>> prohibiting discrimination on the basis of disability.
> >>>
> >>> Fraternally,
> >>> Marion
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name<mailto:buddy at brannan.name>>
> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> >>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 6:45 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> By the way, before we go a whole bunch further, I think it's
> important
> >>>> that I point up a distinction here. It is not the animal which is
> >>>> granted
> >>>> or denied access. Not in the law and not in reality. It is, rather,
> the
> >>>> disabled person (or, perhaps, not disabled trainer) who is allowed
> to
>
> >>>> be
> >>>> accompanied by a task trained service animal (or, perhaps, an animal
> in
> >>>> training for said service related tasks).
> >>>>
> >>>> That is all.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> >>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Dec 25, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Steve Johnson wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I think it is best to keep the "companion" animal out of this mix
> as
>
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> is defined simply as a pet. See Delta Society.org, and
> JAN.wvu.edu.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And, this everyone, is where the whole issue of abuse of such a law
> >>>>> comes
> >>>
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> to play if such an allowance were to be. Perhaps, better
> >>>>> understanding
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> the current laws would be the better approach than trying to fix
> >>>>> something
> >>>>> that there is no solid evidence that it is even broke? Albert, you
> >>>>> refer
> >>>
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> animals being trained that are being denied access. Please show me
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> hard
> >>>>> data on this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd bet you anything that most formal agencies do not have any
> problem
> >>>>> with
> >>>>> accessing places of public accommodation with dogs in training
> before
> >>>>> they
> >>>>> are matched with the new master. All of my guides have been from
> >>>>> Leader,
> >>>>> and it is amazing how open the communities are in allowing access
> from
> >>>>> everything ranging from restaurants to public transit. These cities
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> towns include little ol' Rochester to Detroit. So, where's the
> >>>>> problem,
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> is this just another piece of make me feel good legislation that
> will
> >>>>> hurt
> >>>>> us more than it will actually help us?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Unless one can show me that there is an actual need for this with
> >>>>> something
> >>>>> concrete to back it up, then our tax payer dollars are again being
> >>>>> wasted
> >>>
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> a Federal legislator wasting all of our time with something
> frivelous
> >>>>> and
> >>>
> >>>>> really, nothing to back it up.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> again, JMO
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert J Rizzi"
> >>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
> >>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'"
> >>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 1:37 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I would think then we need to qualify and quantify the verbiage
> >>>>>> which
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> being considered for amendment because all to often trainers of
> >>>>>> guides
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>> being denied access. What would be a suitable wording which would
> 1.
> >>>>>> protect and ensure that trainers of service animals are included
> in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> a.d.a., which as you yourself presented, can be interpreted to
> >>>>>> prevent
> >>>>>> such
> >>>>>> access unless and until the service animal is being used by a
> person
> >>>>>> using
> >>>>>> the same for the intended purpose? And what of our peers who use
> >>>>>> companions
> >>>>>> for a diagnosable condition where a companion animal/service
> animal
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> needed? The manner of the wording at present does not seem to
> afford
> >>>>>> them
> >>>>>> the same protections, or do they? I think that trainers should be
> >>>>>> held
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> higher measure so people like many of those on this list who got
> bum
> >>>>>> dogs
> >>>>>> do
> >>>>>> not live through that pain again. there is something to say for
> the
> >>>>>> consideration of certification provided that a standard of
> national
> >>>>>> proportions could be meaningful.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> >>>>>> CEO/Founder
> >>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> >>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> >>>>>> New York, New York 10004
> >>>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/>
> >>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
> >>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
> >>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
> one
> >>>>>> who
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>> doing it."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>>>>> Behalf
> >>>>>> Of Steve Johnson
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:14 PM
> >>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Cindy,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> PWD = People or Persons with disabilities.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think that the points being made are very strong, and the
> >>>>>> certification
> >>>>>> issue does not broaden as Albert eluded to, but does indeed
> restrict
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> definition of who who could eventually access a place of public
> >>>>>> accommodation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So, if only a certified trainer, which the points are
> well-expressed
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>> this, is allowed to access a place of public accommodation, then
> >>>>>> would'nt
> >>>>>> this essentially mean that unless an animal trained by a certified
> >>>>>> entity
> >>>>>> could only then access a place of public accommodation?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are a lot of frauds out there, and again we are speaking
> about
> >>>>>> places
> >>>>>> of public accommodation. The fair housing amendments act already
> >>>>>> provides
> >>>>>> for any person to have an emotional support, or even companion
> >>>>>> animals
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> Federal assisted housing, and this can also move into private
> housing
> >>>>>> where
> >>>>>> emotional support animals can be granted access through a request
> for
> >>>>>> reasonable accommodation. The underlying problem is that these
> are
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> highly trained animals that are specifically trained to provide a
> >>>>>> functional
> >>>>>> support/service for the individual whether it be through a
> >>>>>> professional
> >>>>>> entity or an individual who chooses to self-train.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have to disagree with Albert in that his comment that this would
> >>>>>> expand
> >>>>>> the coverage of access as it clearly discriminates against those
> who
> >>>>>> self-train and again, I will point out that this language is
> >>>>>> specifically
> >>>>>> stated in the ADA.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Furthermore, if the word certification were deleted from this,
> then
>
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>> where we are at now, and is this a bad thing?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> While this proposed legislation specifically addresses service
> >>>>>> animals,
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> problem herein is that it creates this slippery slope that I
> mention
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> there will be a push like you have never seen by other groups to
> >>>>>> expand
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> include emotional support, therapy, and companion animals. Mark
> my
> >>>>>> word.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let's go back to the intent of the ADA, and you will further
> >>>>>> understand
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> this narrows, not expands as these other types of animals are not
> >>>>>> providing
> >>>>>> a service. A support yes, a service no.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray"
> <cindyray at qwest.net<mailto:cindyray at qwest.net>>
> >>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> >>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:20 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What is PWD?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And you make a good point. Who certifies? If the schools where
> the
> >>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>> train certify them, then what about these independents,
> particularly
> >>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>> who train their own dogs. And, of course, NAC was a certification
> >>>>>>> outfit
> >>>>>>> that certified places, but any of us who knows the history of NAC
> >>>>>>> knows
> >>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>> certification meant for agencies and schools serving the bolind.
> So
> >>>>>>> why
> >>>>>>> bother if you can't certify better than that? Suppose the Guide
> Dog
> >>>>>>> School
> >>>>>>> Association, whose official name I don't remember, certified
> >>>>>>> trainers?
> >>>>>>> Would
> >>>>>>> they be willing to certify an independent, and would such a
> person
>
> >>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>> willing to do that (be certified by such a certifying body?)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> CL
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Pawpower Pack"
> >>>>>>> <pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com>>
> >>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> >>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:15 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> and who certifies the trainers?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There is no certifying body for dog trainers. If I want to call
> >>>>>>> myself a dog trainer, I can. There are outfits like CPDT who are
> >>>>>>> trying to certify pet dog trainers but it's all voluntary. The
> >>>>>>> guide
> >>>>>>> and service dogs, with the exception of California, may "certify"
> >>>>>>> their trainers but it's about as valuable as the paper it's
> printed
> >>>>>>> on.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> California "certifies" it's trainers but frankly, I would hate to
> >>>>>>> see
> >>>>>>> an outfit like the California guide dog board become the norm.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I also think it's a step awy from certifying trainers to
> certifying
> >>>>>>> PWD.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
> >>>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
> >>>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won,
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
> >>>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
> >>>>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Windows Live Only:
> Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com>
> >>>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> nagdu:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40qwest.net<
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40qwest.net>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> nagdu:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/stevencjohnson%40cent
> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/stevencjohnson%40cen
> t>
> >>>>>> urytel.net
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot>
> .
> >>>>>> org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>
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> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/stevencjohnson%40cen
> t>
> >>> urytel.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/>
> >>>>> Version: 9.0.722 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date:
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>
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> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
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> for
> >>>>> nagdu:
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> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name<
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
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> >>>> nagdu:
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> >>>
> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40veriz
> o>
> >>> n.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >>
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
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