[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Julie J julielj at windstream.net
Tue Dec 29 16:36:52 UTC 2009 

Steve,

You surmised about owner trainers and access problems being pretty limited 
due to familiarity in the community.  I live in a very, very small town of 
about 8,000 people.  I have never had an access denial anywhere I have taken 
my guides in my town or while traveling.  Granted I do have a serious edge 
on that town familiarity thing, but I would say that my access issues are 
the same as or fewer than a team from a program.

Just FYI
Julie



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Johnson" <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


> The other end to this Buddy, might be the immplementation of a registry 
> which would also bring in yet another cost to us, or shall I say a tax. 
> Just one more layer to uncover here as it is generally required that if 
> one is certified, they also have to pay additional annual registry fee, 
> which would be undoubtedly be passed down to the user in some way shape or 
> form. Just what we need, another tax.  So by creating a certification, 
> this would do what, create a reason to have our animals registered on a 
> national registry, and why would we need or want this?  Maybe I am reading 
> too much into this whole idea of a certification, but isn't this pretty 
> accurate? Teachers, O&M instructors, all have certification processes, and 
> have their professional registries etc., and we need this for opening up 
> access to animals in training that are being denied access how often?
>
> I'd bet you 10:1 that individuals has self-trained on this list serve, 
> they had very little problem in accessing places of public accommodation 
> while training their guide.  And this is why?  They are well-known in 
> their communities, have established a solid reputation, and are simply not 
> faking it.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> Actually, no. Unless and until I can see a fair and cost-effective 
>> program that would be administered by people who have a clue (and 
>> unfortunately, I don't see any way such a thing can happen, given the 
>> aforementioned complexities coupled with government's abysmal track 
>> record at such things), there's no way I can support certification. There 
>> are far too many ways a certification program can either be screwed up or 
>> screw somebody over.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 25, 2009, at 4:06 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> So would it be safe to assume that you support certification from your
>>> statement?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Buddy Brannan
>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 3:32 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> On Dec 25, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>>
>>>> While we mull over what constitutes  a service animal, lets determine 
>>>> to
>>>> include companions for the emotional and mental health concerns, 
>>>> diabetic
>>>> and seizure issues and any multitude   of reasons a medically 
>>>> prescribed
>>>> animal would help one who needs one.
>>>
>>> Actually, let's not.
>>>
>>> The current definition for a service animal is, IMO, not too bad, i.e. 
>>> any
>>> definition of service animal must of necessity include that the animal 
>>> must
>>> be task trained, etc. etc. If we open up the definition further to 
>>> include
>>> so-called "emotional support animals", well, it isn't much further to go 
>>> to
>>> allow pets of all kinds. Mind you, I don't have a problem with pets in
>>> public places so long as they're well-behaved and under good control. 
>>> Sadly,
>>> hoever, most are not, but I digress. For the brief time I was the 
>>> membership
>>> coordinator for IAADP (last year, actually), you wouldn't believe the 
>>> number
>>> of calls and Emails I had to field from people who would call asking 
>>> about
>>> their rights as handlers of service dogs, but it turned out that these 
>>> dogs
>>> had no formal task training. The dog "calmed me by its presence" or 
>>> other
>>> such nonsense. Friends, that is what we in the biz call a "pet".
>>>
>>> Now a dog that alerts to seizures, diabetic highs or lows, perhaps 
>>> severe
>>> allergens (yes, really, might be a stretch--I don't know), and so on, I
>>> would think qualifies as a service dog, if, again, it had specific task
>>> training to mitigate a disability. Say, a seizure alert dog that would 
>>> alert
>>> its handler to an oncoming seizure, get him/her to a safe place before 
>>> the
>>> onset of the seizure, then pressed a 911 call button. Or a dog that 
>>> provided
>>> support to someone who had some balance or other issue. But comfort or
>>> anchor to reality or what have you are not trained tasks.
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:35 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> The failure of a og to make it with a person has not much to do with 
>>>> the
>>>> trainer, certified or not. As for service dogs, just what *does*
>>> constitute
>>>> one really?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 1:37 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would think then we need to qualify and quantify the verbiage  which 
>>>> is
>>>> being considered for amendment because all to often trainers of guides 
>>>> are
>>>> being denied access.  What would be a suitable wording which would 1.
>>>> protect and ensure that trainers of service animals are included in the
>>>> a.d.a., which as you  yourself presented, can be interpreted to prevent
>>> such
>>>> access unless and until the service animal is being used by a person 
>>>> using
>>>> the same for the intended purpose?  And what of our peers who use
>>> companions
>>>> for a diagnosable  condition where a companion animal/service animal is
>>>> needed? The manner of the wording at present does not seem to afford 
>>>> them
>>>> the same protections, or do they?  I think that trainers should be held 
>>>> to
>>> a
>>>> higher measure so people like many of those on this list who got bum 
>>>> dogs
>>> do
>>>> not live through that pain again.  there is something to say for the
>>>> consideration of certification  provided that a standard  of national
>>>> proportions  could be meaningful.
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Steve Johnson
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:14 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> Hi Cindy,
>>>>
>>>> PWD = People or Persons with disabilities.
>>>>
>>>> I think that the points being made are very strong, and the 
>>>> certification
>>>> issue does not broaden as Albert eluded to, but does indeed restrict 
>>>> the
>>>> definition of who who could eventually access a place of public
>>>> accommodation.
>>>>
>>>> So, if only a certified trainer, which the points are well-expressed on
>>>> this, is allowed to access a place of public accommodation, then 
>>>> would'nt
>>>> this essentially mean that unless an animal trained by a certified 
>>>> entity
>>>> could only then access a place of public accommodation?
>>>>
>>>> There are a lot of frauds out there, and again we are speaking about
>>> places
>>>> of public accommodation.  The fair housing amendments act already 
>>>> provides
>>>> for any person to have an emotional support, or even companion animals 
>>>> in
>>>> Federal assisted housing, and this can also move into private housing
>>> where
>>>> emotional support animals can be granted access through a request for
>>>> reasonable accommodation.  The underlying problem is that these are not
>>>> highly trained animals that are specifically trained to provide a
>>> functional
>>>> support/service for the individual whether it be through a professional
>>>> entity or an individual who chooses to self-train.
>>>>
>>>> I have to disagree with Albert in that his comment that this would 
>>>> expand
>>>> the coverage of access as it clearly discriminates against those who
>>>> self-train and again, I will point out that this language is 
>>>> specifically
>>>> stated in the ADA.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, if the word certification were deleted from this, then we 
>>>> are
>>>> where we are at now, and is this a bad thing?
>>>>
>>>> While this proposed legislation specifically addresses service animals,
>>> the
>>>> problem herein is that it creates this slippery slope that I mention in
>>> that
>>>> there will be a push like you have never seen by other groups to expand
>>> and
>>>> include emotional support, therapy, and companion animals.  Mark my 
>>>> word.
>>>>
>>>> Let's go back to the intent of the ADA, and you will further understand
>>> that
>>>> this narrows, not expands as these other types of animals are not
>>> providing
>>>> a service.  A support yes, a service no.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:20 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What is PWD?
>>>>>
>>>>> And you make a good point. Who certifies? If the schools where the 
>>>>> people
>>>>> train certify them, then what about these independents, particularly
>>> those
>>>>> who train their own dogs. And, of course, NAC was a certification 
>>>>> outfit
>>>>> that certified places, but any of us who knows the history of NAC 
>>>>> knows
>>>>> what
>>>>> certification meant for agencies and schools serving the bolind. So 
>>>>> why
>>>>> bother if you can't certify better than that? Suppose the Guide Dog
>>> School
>>>>> Association, whose official name I don't remember, certified trainers?
>>>>> Would
>>>>> they be willing to certify an independent, and would such a person be
>>>>> willing to do that (be certified by such a certifying body?)
>>>>>
>>>>> CL
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and who certifies the trainers?
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no certifying body for dog trainers.  If I want to call
>>>>> myself a dog trainer, I can.  There are outfits like CPDT who are
>>>>> trying to certify pet dog trainers but it's all voluntary.  The guide
>>>>> and service dogs, with the exception of California, may "certify"
>>>>> their trainers but it's about as valuable as the paper it's printed 
>>>>> on.
>>>>>
>>>>> California "certifies" it's trainers but frankly, I would hate to see
>>>>> an outfit like the California guide dog board become the norm.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also think it's a step awy from certifying trainers to certifying 
>>>>> PWD.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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