[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
Julie J
julielj at windstream.net
Wed Dec 30 13:33:08 UTC 2009
Albert,
This was rather rude. You are free to disagree with Marion until you both
turn blue in the face, but you are not allowed to flame individuals on this
list.
Julie Johnson
NAGDU list moderator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
> First you implied in no way anything about animals innate abilities. In
> and
> of itself the definition of service animals are those trained for a
> specific
> task. Are you aware of the schools presently training and providing
> service
> animals for seizure and diabetic detections? It seems like maybe not. As
> for
> you assuming I would call a hot line rather then seasoned attorneys is
> laughable. I have two going on three lawyers working in various capacities
> and are mentors of mine and some are members of this organization as well.
> For someone who profess not to be a lawyer the manner with which you speak
> gives such an air of authority that one wonders if you missed your
> calling.
> Also you position that anyone in a position of authority would interpret
> the
> law in such a way that they would only guide and not advise is a veiled
> attempt to preemptively counter what I might find out which goes against
> your position. I would also suggest you revisit your position on
> disabilities as it seems a bit dated. Diagnosible disabilities do include
> many types of diabetes and seizure disorders. Would you like an authority
> to
> back me up on tht one?
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 5:37 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Albert,
> The key element, as you mention, is the training. If an animal is
> trained to perform a task, then it is, under the definition, a service
> animal. If, however, as I have stated, it only responds due to some innate
> capacity, not as the result of a trained task, it is not a service animal.
> Therefore, if an animal is able to detect the onset of a seizure, low
> blood
> sugar, or some other innate ability and, as the result of such innate
> ability, licks the person's face, for instance, this is not something for
> which it is trained. The same is true with some of the "comfort animals"
> that others have discussed. The comfort a person may feel during an
> anxiety
> attack due to the petting of an animal is not a trained task, but an
> innate
> capacity of the animal as the result of the petting.
> I say all of this because the response one gets when asking a question
> will be based upon how the question is asked. On the topic of asking
> questions, one of the questions an entity can ask when someone presents
> with
>
> an animal they claim is a service animal is "How was the animal trained?"
> So, if the question is asked of an animal that alerts someone to the onset
> of a seizure, how would the question be answered? If the training cannot
> be
> described except with the answer, "It just knows when I am going to have a
> seizure!", then it is not a service animal. Again, I am not an authority
> on
> this subject, since I do not hold membership in the United States Bar.
> Likewise, neither do those with whom you speak on the DOJ hotline. Even if
> you do get the chance to speak with an actual attorney with the DOJ, you
> will not get any "advice", only "guidance".
> The other question might also be, does the presence of a seizure
> disorder meet the definition of "a qualified person with a disability"?
> Only
>
> disabled persons have the right to be accompanied by a service animal. If
> someone claims discrimination under the Act, it is incumbant upon the
> person
>
> claiming protection to prove they are disabled. This goes back to the
> essence of the discussion from which this thread began. Should a trainer
> of
> a service animal be able to claim protection under the ADA?
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> Trust me I will. I do not see how including but not limited to would rule
>> out some service animals over other, but just the opposite include those
>> even trained as alert dogs. Will report when I hear back.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York 10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Marion & Martin
>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 10:33 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> Albert,
>> Let us know if you get an answer that is substantially different from
>> what they provide on their website concerning this.
>>
>> http://ada.gov/svcanimb.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>>
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>>
>>>I suppose that is one opinion, but including but not limited to opens the
>>> door for interpretation. I have a call into the DJO to clarify this
>>> position and will offer a more authoritative answer soon.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:28 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> albert,
>>> The authoritative word is from the Department of Justice which states
>>> that a service animal is an animal individually trained to do work or
>>> perform tasks for a person with a disability. It is the task oriented
>>> training that makes a service animal such under the law. The DOJ's
>>> Business
>>> Brief clearly states that, in regard to seizure disorder, a service
>>> animal
>>> "alerts and protects" a person with a seizure disorder. If the
>>> Department
>>> intended only for an alert, they would have used the conjunction "or". I
>>> believe the use of the "and" conjunction shows the intent of the
>>> Department
>>> to mean both, not either.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>>>I find that below, offered by steven earlier, includes the verbiage
>>>> "included but not limited to" which would cover such animals in
>>>> instances
>>>> where they were trained to provide warning for a person diagnosed and
>>>> determined to have the disabling condition of epilepcy or some other
>>>> seizure
>>>> disorder. As steven said before, the wording can be as clear as mud.
>>>> But
>>>> with a spray bottle and a clean cloth we can see what is intended
>>>> through
>>>> the muck and mire.
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 12:40 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>> albert,
>>>> I am not saying that only guide dogs are legitimate service animals;
>>>> however, the ADA does not protect animals whose only function is to
>>>> alert
>>>> someone to the onset of a seizure disorder. Though I am not an
>>>> attorney,
>>>> so
>>>> my opinion is only that, the ability to alert someone to the onset of a
>>>> seizure is an innate ability, not a trained task and, as such, is not a
>>>> service animal. If the animal is trained to perform a task when the
>>>> onset
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> a seizure is detected, such as clearing an area around the person,
>>>> pulling
>>>
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> medical alert device, placing a pillow under the person's head, etc.,
>>>> then
>>>> it is a service animal by definition. Similarly, an animal that
>>>> comforts
>>>> someone with an anxiety disorder simply by its mere presence, is also
>>>> not
>>>> a
>>>> service animal.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 8:51 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I would think that people with epilepsy and seizure disorders using a
>>>>> service animal, and I should think the a.d.a. would disagree with your
>>>>> position that such and animal is not protected or included in this
>>>>> law.
>>>>> Are
>>>>> you attempting to say that only dogs used as guides for the blind are
>>>>> the
>>>>> only proper and legal service animals?
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>> who
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 8:00 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of the animals mentioned in this message are not service
>>>>> animals
>>>>> as
>>>>>
>>>>> defined by the ADA and state laws; therefore, those accompanied by
>>>>> these
>>>>> animals do not have the protections afforded under such laws. They
>>>>> may,
>>>>> though, be protected by the FHA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:48 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While we mull over what constitutes a service animal, lets determine
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> include companions for the emotional and mental health concerns,
>>>>>> diabetic
>>>>>> and seizure issues and any multitude of reasons a medically
>>>>>> prescribed
>>>>>> animal would help one who needs one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:35 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The failure of a og to make it with a person has not much to do with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> trainer, certified or not. As for service dogs, just what *does*
>>>>>> constitute
>>>>>> one really?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 1:37 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would think then we need to qualify and quantify the verbiage
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> being considered for amendment because all to often trainers of
>>>>>> guides
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> being denied access. What would be a suitable wording which would 1.
>>>>>> protect and ensure that trainers of service animals are included in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> a.d.a., which as you yourself presented, can be interpreted to
>>>>>> prevent
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> access unless and until the service animal is being used by a person
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> the same for the intended purpose? And what of our peers who use
>>>>>> companions
>>>>>> for a diagnosable condition where a companion animal/service animal
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> needed? The manner of the wording at present does not seem to afford
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> the same protections, or do they? I think that trainers should be
>>>>>> held
>>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> higher measure so people like many of those on this list who got bum
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not live through that pain again. there is something to say for the
>>>>>> consideration of certification provided that a standard of national
>>>>>> proportions could be meaningful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:14 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Cindy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PWD = People or Persons with disabilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that the points being made are very strong, and the
>>>>>> certification
>>>>>> issue does not broaden as Albert eluded to, but does indeed restrict
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> definition of who who could eventually access a place of public
>>>>>> accommodation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, if only a certified trainer, which the points are well-expressed
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> this, is allowed to access a place of public accommodation, then
>>>>>> would'nt
>>>>>> this essentially mean that unless an animal trained by a certified
>>>>>> entity
>>>>>> could only then access a place of public accommodation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a lot of frauds out there, and again we are speaking about
>>>>>> places
>>>>>> of public accommodation. The fair housing amendments act already
>>>>>> provides
>>>>>> for any person to have an emotional support, or even companion
>>>>>> animals
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Federal assisted housing, and this can also move into private housing
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> emotional support animals can be granted access through a request for
>>>>>> reasonable accommodation. The underlying problem is that these are
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> highly trained animals that are specifically trained to provide a
>>>>>> functional
>>>>>> support/service for the individual whether it be through a
>>>>>> professional
>>>>>> entity or an individual who chooses to self-train.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to disagree with Albert in that his comment that this would
>>>>>> expand
>>>>>> the coverage of access as it clearly discriminates against those who
>>>>>> self-train and again, I will point out that this language is
>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>> stated in the ADA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, if the word certification were deleted from this, then
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> where we are at now, and is this a bad thing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While this proposed legislation specifically addresses service
>>>>>> animals,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> problem herein is that it creates this slippery slope that I mention
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> there will be a push like you have never seen by other groups to
>>>>>> expand
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> include emotional support, therapy, and companion animals. Mark my
>>>>>> word.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's go back to the intent of the ADA, and you will further
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> this narrows, not expands as these other types of animals are not
>>>>>> providing
>>>>>> a service. A support yes, a service no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:20 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is PWD?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And you make a good point. Who certifies? If the schools where the
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> train certify them, then what about these independents, particularly
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> who train their own dogs. And, of course, NAC was a certification
>>>>>>> outfit
>>>>>>> that certified places, but any of us who knows the history of NAC
>>>>>>> knows
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> certification meant for agencies and schools serving the bolind. So
>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>> bother if you can't certify better than that? Suppose the Guide Dog
>>>>>>> School
>>>>>>> Association, whose official name I don't remember, certified
>>>>>>> trainers?
>>>>>>> Would
>>>>>>> they be willing to certify an independent, and would such a person
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> willing to do that (be certified by such a certifying body?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:15 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and who certifies the trainers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no certifying body for dog trainers. If I want to call
>>>>>>> myself a dog trainer, I can. There are outfits like CPDT who are
>>>>>>> trying to certify pet dog trainers but it's all voluntary. The
>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>> and service dogs, with the exception of California, may "certify"
>>>>>>> their trainers but it's about as valuable as the paper it's printed
>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> California "certifies" it's trainers but frankly, I would hate to
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> an outfit like the California guide dog board become the norm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think it's a step awy from certifying trainers to certifying
>>>>>>> PWD.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won,
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40qwest.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/stevencjohnson%40cent
>>>>>> urytel.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 9.0.722 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date:
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>> org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>
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