[nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

Fri Feb 27 19:11:40 UTC 2009

I think those of us who have been on this list know which school you're
talking about. 
And, it doesn't matter. 
What I'd be most interested to see though is the school or any school's
side of this story. 
Anybody want to take a stab at it?  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:03 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

Dear Ron and All,
    The problem with a school retaining ownership is the holding of this
fact over the heads of the user. In many cases, graduates who do not
have ownership are hesitant to ask for help when needed, thus
compromising the integrity of the team due to training or behavioral
issues. Furthermore, handlers who do not own their dogs have little
recourse should the school decide to repossess the dog and the schools
need no justification for this action. Lest anyone think a school would
not do such a thing, I will share a real example of this occuring.
    I advocated for a couple in Florida who were very outspoken and,
because of this, made a few adversaries. Several of these adversaries
filed complaints against the couple, charging that their dogs were out
of control and were being abused. One of the complaintants was a guide
dog user who worked for the state agency for the blind where each member
of the couple was engaged in rehabilitation. This person's dog was
agressive toward the wife's dog and the dog naturally defended itself.
This state employee contacted the school and asserted that the wife's
dog was the agressor and had been aggressive toward other dogs at the
rehabilitation center. The complaintant also stated that the wife had
been barred from bringing her dog to the rehab center. This latter fact
was absolutely false and the complaintant was disciplined by the agency
for saying this.
    The school sent a trainer to visit the couple and their case notes
state that the trainer spent "two or three hours" with the graduate. The
first thing I thought when I read this entry was "Did the trainer spend
two or three hours with the person?" In any case, the graduate asserts
that the trainer spent about ten minutes with her and that most of the
time the trainer was on the telephone. In any case, the school sent
another trainer to "investigate". The traner went door-to-door in the
couple's apartment complex questioning neighbors about the allegations
of abuse. Finding no one who would coroborate the abuse alleged by only
one neighbor who the wife said observed her correct her dog after it
became distracted and ran her into a trash can on the sidewalk, the
school contacted Animal Services to investigate the claims of abuse and
neglect.
    The Animal Services officer - a sworn law enforcement officer -
investigated the charges by visiting the couple's home unannounced. He
told me ( and wrote in his official report) that he found the couple's
apartment clean and orderly, there was a bucket of water on the floor,
plenty of dog food, both of the dogs were well-groomed, and the female
dog even had its nails painted! The officer concluded that there was no
evidence of abuse or neglect and closed the case.
    The school sent a trainer, nonetheless, to the couple. Since the
couple owned their dogs, the school could not take the dogs away from
them; however, since the school retains ownership of the harnesses, they
took them away. In addition, the Animal Services officer who was present
when the harnesses were taken told me that the trainer was verbally
abusive to the couple who, in his opinion, had done absolutely nothing
wrong. In his own words, he said, "I arrest people every day for serious
crimes and would never treat one of them the way this couple was
treated!" Furthermore, the trainer went to the police department and
told officers that the dogs were no longer service animals, that they
had no right to use them as guide dogs, and that they  had no right of
access. When I spoke with the police department, this was confirmed;
however, I was told by the police department that they had no intention
of interfering with their rights of access, as this would violate both
Florida and Fedeeral laws.
    Fortunately, this couple had ownership of their dogs. The only
recourse the school had was to repossess their harnesses, another issue
I have with schools' policies and why I have purchased my own harness.
If the school had ownership, the dogs could have been taken away from
them in spite of the fact that there was no objective evidence of abuse
or neglect.

Fraternally,
Marion Gwizdala

 owned the dogs,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Davidson" <fuzzy_1 at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

>I was told that once a dog is returned it is retired or adopted out and

>they do not retrain and match with another student. As far as ownership
I 
>don't see what the big deal is if the school retains ownership for a
year 
>or two years. If they feel you are abusing or not taking care of the
dog I 
>would want them to take it. I have known too many people get the dog
and 
>don't follow the feeding guidelines and feed table scraps etc and it
ruins 
>the dogs digestive system and they will go for food left on floors of 
>restraunts etc. To me all that does is ruin a good working dog and make
the 
>rest of us look bad. The school I went to kept ownership for two years
and 
>it was no big deal to me but everyone is different. I also was told
that 
>Seeing eye gives ownership upon graduation when you pay a fee of 150.00
and 
>this came from one of their field reps. I don't know what Leader dog
does I 
>went to Guiding Eyes and was very pleased with them and their
follow-up. 
>If I have a problem I gave them a call and we solved it over the phone
or a 
>field trainer would come down if serious enough. I know everyone has
their 
>own preference of schools just like me and this is just my opinion.
>
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