[nagdu] [SPAM][SPAM]Re: Pooper Scooper Laws
lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com
lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com
Mon Jan 19 22:52:15 UTC 2009
Thanks for the support, Craig.
I did go to the police station and the desk cop thought it was rediculus
that I was even sited in the first place. Anyway, because I produced a copy
of the law, the police have decided to void the citation. However, I will be
working to educate the police in how to deal with blind people.
As far as the blind people being exempt from the law goes, I didn't write
it - it's been that way forever. I, and the rest of the guide dog users I
know, observe the law - picking up and throwing it away - we like having the
exemption as a "safety net" for the rare time that we have to leave the
bagged poop under a tree, bush, or in the gutter.
I think it is a positive thing to use anything as an opportunity to educate
people. Sometimes good things come in very strange and unexpected ways. We
have to think outside the box at times. (smile) Sometimes we get caught up
in form rather than the substance of things.
Now, the blind guy whose cane got run over by a bike, he went about it the
wrong way. He ranted like a madman, continued after he found out that the
cop was talking to him and even got more violent. As a result, the blind guy
got thrown to the ground, got a cut ear, damage to his Braille& Speak,
cuffed and hauled off to jail. Nobody learned anything from what he did.
Except that the blind are crazy and not worthy of equal treatment to sighted
people. Remember, we all get "painted" by the same brush of ignorance and
that keeps us where we are in society - unemployed and subject to
paternalism. We have to show folks that we blind are just like them in all
ways except that our eyes don't work.
I remained calm and respectful - even though the cop was a jerk - and got a
citation anyway. Hopefully, with the help of our local blind community, we
will be able to go to the Police Academy to educate cops in training - make
it a positive thing. They can then learn to understand blindness better and
that makes us look good.
Linda and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Borne" <cjborne at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [SPAM][SPAM]Re: Pooper Scooper Laws
> Wayne, Linda, and others:
>
> I really see Linda's situation as an opportunity, no matter the cause for
> the opportunity. Some on this list may be opposed to blind exemptions in
> "pooper scooper" laws, while others could frankly care less. The issue
> isn't that Linda is exempt from the law (or whether she should be exempt
> from the law), but instead, it is that the police (1) did not identify
> themselves as officers; (2) frankly questioned the legitimacy of her
> blindness; (3) refused to assist her before issuing a citation; and (4)
> were
> flat-out ignorant of the city's laws.
>
> Frankly, I am not insulted by blind exemptions to these laws because it is
> not going to affect whether or not I pick up my dog's waste. But don't
> come
> down on Linda for finding opportunity where only ignorance once resided.
> If
> more of us identified opportunities such as this, instead of bitching
> about
> parental and patronizing laws, we could make more headway.
>
> Craig
>
> Craig Borne, Esq.
> Baltimore, Maryland
> "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
> appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
> defense of custom." --Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of wcmerritt at gmail.com
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 5:43 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [SPAM][SPAM]Re: [nagdu] Pooper Scooper Laws
>
> Linda:
>
> I understand what you're saying here about the cops and other
> officials needing to know about guide dogs and the blind in general.
> Again, not sure i'd approach their education on the level of pooper
> scoopper laws. In my humble opinion, if you're going to go to the
> trouble of picking up the mess, it follows that you're also going to
> throw it away. You say that you don't have pockets readily available,
> or don't want to put the stuff in your pocket, then carry the bag. I
> know that carrying, um, crap, isn't the most desirable thing, but by
> your own admission, you didn't know where the trash can was. It seems
> logical that you would carry it then until you found one. We may have
> to agree to disagree on this.
>
> On the issue of education, I applaud you for wanting to educate. In
> fact, you might consider seeing if you could get into one of the
> police academy classes. Perhaps with each group of new students,
> there's a day or several days when several blind people go to the
> academy to demonstrate and educate. For officers coming out of the
> academy this would address their lack of knowledge. I've done this
> when I was a student at the Colorado Center. They had a deal where
> several students and some staff went to the bus training building once
> a month to talk to new bus drivers, in order to make them aware of
> what to do when you meet a blind person. Perhaps you could do
> something like this, but with the police.
>
> Again, I know you have to start somewhere, I'm just not sure that your
> pooper scoopper issue is the right place to start, especially since
> you have the option of either leaving the mess or picking it up and
> properly disposing of it, rather than arguing over who's exempt and
> who's responsibility it is for what.
>
> Humbly,
> Wayne
>
> On 1/16/09, lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com <lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> Wayne,
>> I was the originator of the pooper scooper thing. I didn't have a pocket
> to
>> put the poop into! Ladies don't really want to do that as much as guys
>> won't mind doing that.
>>
>> The primary issue here is that cops being clueless about blind people has
>> been exposed by this incident of my being cited for violation of the
> pooper
>> scooper law. This issue has brought to light how clueless the San Diego
>> Police is when dealing with a blind person. About six months ago, a cane
>> using member of our blind community was out on an errand when a bike
>> rider
>> ran over his white cane. Now, this guy is an idiot and he began ranting
> and
>> raving and cussing. From what I heard, some passersby called the police
> but
>> they didn't assist the blind guy. The cop came and never did identify
>> himself to the blind guy as a police officer. The blind guy continued to
> be
>> out of control. The cop asked this totally blind guy to identify the
>> bike
>> rider! Well this spun the blind guy into orbit and he REALLY got out of
>> control then. The blind guy was clearly out of line and he does have a
> bad
>> anger management problem. Many of us cringe when he's around because we
>> don't want to be painted with the same brush as he is - all blind people
> act
>> alike! - it's bad!
>>
>> The point here is here are two blind people, within six months of each
>> other, who have had cops have no clue about that blind people generally
>> don't see like the cop sees. The guy was to visually identify the bike
>> rider with totally blind eyes. I was asked to gain normal sight to see
> for
>> myself where a trash can was.
>>
>> The San Diego Police clearly aren't getting ANY disability or blindness
>> education in the Police Acadamy. This needs to be changed. What else
>> are
>> they clueless on - a diabetic in an extreme high or low sugar episode? A
>> deaf person who failed to hear the cop yell "Stop!"? A person with
> epilepsy
>> having a seizure and the cop thinks he's just drunk or high on drugs?
>> The
>> cops need to know aboout these things because it could mean life or death
>> for the disabled person.
>>
>> Linda and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lora and Myrtle" <blindhistory at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Pooper Scooper Laws
>>
>>
>>>I also put "presents" in my pocket if I can't find a trash can.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:28 PM, <wcmerritt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I can't find a trash can or know that there's not one nearby, then
>>>> I'll put the bag in my pocket for later disposal or use the direct
>>>> approach. This means I'll walk up to an unsuspecting sighted person,
>>>> hold the bag up, and ask them if they know where a trash is, or I
>>>> might even ask if they want to direct me to a trashcan or take my
>>>> "present." This has worked so far. I think that if I were in the
>>>> incident mentioned originally, I'd just put the bag in my jacket
>>>> pocket and wait until I reached a trash can. Though it does sound like
>>>> a no win situation since both the woman and the "officer" refused to
>>>> help. If I were in that situation though and two different people
>>>> refused to help, I'd probably just drop it, since I could always
>>>> dispose of it later.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, I found myself in a similar situation not long ago when my
>>>> dog decided to leave a present on the sidewalk on the way to the bus
>>>> transit center. I picked up the mess and then not knowing where the
>>>> trash can was, I just put it in my jacket pocket. The pocket can zip
>>>> shut, so I figured that the smell would stay inside the pocket, which
>>>> it did. If anyone smelled it on the bus, there was no comment. I
>>>> actually started to grin since I wondered if anyone could smell it,
>>>> and if so, if they were looking at people's shoes, and then wondering
>>>> where the smell was coming from. I eventually disposed of the present
>>>> when I got to work, putting it in an outside trash can near the door
>>>> to my office.
>>>>
>>>> I can understand the person's points in the original situation and
>>>> that there's definitely a lack of education, I'm just not sure that
>>>> I'd push an issue like this. Educating on topics like blind people
>>>> have an know how to use guide dogs, Braille, equal treatment, etc,
>>>> seem like better starting points than whether or not we're exempt from
>>>> having to pick up the poop or not.
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>> On 1/14/09, lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com <lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Rebecca,
>>>> > Tomorrow, when I go to the Humane Society to do our pet visitation,
>>>> > I'll
>>>> go
>>>> > across the courtyard to the Animal Control to get copies of the law.
> I
>>>> just
>>>> > happened to think about that police station I pass on my way home.
>>>> > I'll
>>>> > stop in there armed with my copy of the law and the citation and I'll
>>>> > see
>>>> if
>>>> > they'll overturn it and have this over and done with. I might still
> go
>>>> to
>>>> > Mike Turko and our CCB chapter to see what can be done to prevent
>>>> > another
>>>> > local guide dog user from having this headache.
>>>> >
>>>> > Linda and Landon
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M. (TASCSD)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:38 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Pooper Scooper Laws
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Linda Along with the dogs, Landon also got to meet a pig. I'm sorry.
>>>> >> Do check out the link I sent you.
>>>> >> My other question is why NFB isn't doing more to educate police
>>>> >> officers.
>>>> >> In the two guide dog discrimination cases I was involved with, the
>>>> >> police were useless and treated it as a civil matter, not an aDA
>>>> >> issue.
>>>> >> The first officer had never heard of the Ada, and the second time,
> the
>>>> >> officer responding had maybe heard of it but didn't know "how it
>>>> >> applied
>>>> >> here".
>>>> >> It seems likeNFB could learn from the gay and lesbian communities,
> and
>>>> >> also the transgender community on issues dealing with the police.
>>>> >> Why can't a course be part of the police academy training?
>>>> >> This seems to be a problem NFB has no interest in. Why?
>>>> >> Lastly Linda, have you contacted the police chieff, the mayor, (who
>>>> >> I
>>>> >> think appoints the police chief), and also the sheriff? Both
>>>> >> themayor
>>>> >> and sheriff are elected officials andshould by the nature of their
>>>> >> position respond to you.
>>>> >> In my situations, I did everything I suggested with good results,
>>>> >> though
>>>> >> my criteria for "good' is limited in that I haven't had any guide
>>>> >> dog
>>>> >> discrimination issues, or dealings with the police.
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> >> Behalf Of lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com
>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:20 PM
>>>> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Pooper Scooper Laws
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hi Rebecca,
>>>> >> That was funny about the Democrats and Republicans. Actually, the
>>>> >> rally
>>>> >> was a bipartisan one - No on Prop 8 Marriage Equality For All
>>>> >> Campaign.
>>>> >> If I can enjoy marriage, so should my gay and lesbian brothers and
>>>> >> sisters. Landon loves those rallies and marches - lots of nice dogs
> to
>>>> >> meet! (smile!)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. That's funny about your dog
>>>> >> pooping near a Democrat's sign. Maybe other dogs did the same and
>>>> >> he
>>>> >> smelled it and added his own commentary. I'm a lifelong Democrat
>>>> >> but
>>>> >> I
>>>> >> function more like an Independent. I have worked for Republicans
>>>> >> who
>>>> >> were more progressive.
>>>> >> There haven't been many of those because of the neoconservatives and
>>>> >> other fanatics who have commendeered the Republican Party over the
>>>> >> last
>>>> >> 30 years!
>>>> >> I did vote for the Republican in this year's City Attorney race
>>>> >> because
>>>> >> I thought the Democratic incumbant was an idiot. (grin!)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Well, one way or another, I will both fight the citation and educate
>>>> >> folks.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Regards,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Linda and Landon
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M. (TASCSD)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
>>>> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:22 AM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Pooper Scooper Laws
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Linda,
>>>> >>> Know too that the policeman may indeed be a Democrat, who was upset
>>>> >>> at
>>>> >>> your dog's comment on the event.
>>>> >>> My previous Leader Dog without fail would always take me to a
>>>> >> Republican
>>>> >>> sign, and she would poop near Democrat ones.
>>>> >>> I have no idea how she knew.
>>>> >>> Maybe your dog is the Rrepublican and was displeased about the
> rally?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> >>> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:05 AM
>>>> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Pooper Scooper Laws
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Linda,
>>>> >>> First, I would like to say that I don't think blind people
>>>> >>> should
>>>> >> be
>>>> >>> exempt from such laws. On the contrary, I think we need to be more
>>>> >>> diligent, since we are more likely than the sighted to have our
>>>> >>> dogs
>>>> >> in
>>>> >>> public. That said, it sounds as if the officers didn't know you
>>>> >>> were
>>>> >>> blind due to their ignorance, not to mention their insensitivity.
>>>> >>> I believe you are taking the correct action by going to the PD
> and
>>>> >>> your ADA coordinator's office. It sounds as if you have a just
>>>> >>> cause
>>>> >> to
>>>> >>> fight the citation should you need to take it to court, as
>>>> >> inaccessible
>>>> >>> as that may be. Now, this sounds like a story: Blind woman cited
>>>> >>> for
>>>> >>> pooper scooper violation can't have her day in court because she
>>>> >>> can't
>>>> >>> get there! (smile) I do think, though, that making a media issue of
>>>> >> the
>>>> >>> citation in spite of the laws exemption would not serve our mission
>>>> >>> well, as it would send the message that the blind are incapable of
>>>> >>> performing this simple task.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> fraternally,
>>>> >>> marion
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>> From: <lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com>
>>>> >>> To: "NFBnet NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
> Dog
>>>> >>> Users"
>>>> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:44 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: [nagdu] Pooper Scooper Laws
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Hi All,
>>>> >>>> I recently got cited by the police for violating San Diego's
> "pooper
>>>> >>>> scooper law". Both our county and city laws exempt blind people.
>>>> >>> Curious
>>>> >>>> to know if anyone else has had this problem?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I was at a political rally at our County Administration Building
>>>> >>>> last
>>>> >>>> Saturday. Landon took a dump on the grass near the street, I
> picked
>>>> >>> it up
>>>> >>>> with a baggie, and put the package under a nearby bush out of the
>>>> >> way.
>>>> >>> I
>>>> >>>> wasn't able to find a trash can to throw it away in.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I was talking to a lady who is in my Democratic Party club when a
>>>> >>>> man
>>>> >>> came
>>>> >>>> up to me to tell me I had to throw the poop in a trash can. I
>>>> >>>> told
>>>> >>> him
>>>> >>>> that I was blind and can't find a trash can and asked him to show
> me
>>>> >>> to
>>>> >>>> one and I'd be happy to do that. He said that I had to do it
> myself
>>>> >>> and
>>>> >>>> that he wasn't going to help me find a can. He then asked me for
> my
>>>> >>> ID.
>>>> >>>> Then I asked him who he was. He answered " San Diego Police". I
>>>> >>> again
>>>> >>>> told him that I was blind and needed his help to find a trash can
> to
>>>> >>> throw
>>>> >>>> the poop into. Again, he said that I had to do this myself. The
>>>> >>> lady's
>>>> >>>> kid offered to throw it away for me but the police had my ID and
>>>> >>>> they
>>>> >>>> wrote me a citation for "Dog Nuisence" and that I was to appear in
>>>> >>> Traffic
>>>> >>>> Court (in an inaccessible location) in March.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The lady I was with said that I could have avoided the ticket if I
>>>> >> was
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> real polite and begging for help from him. I did tell the police
>>>> >>> officer
>>>> >>>> that I was exempt from the County's law and most likely, the San
>>>> >> Diego
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> city law. So, this lady wasn't at all sympathetic to me on this.
>>>> >> She
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> even has a disabled son! I was not angry or disrespectful to the
>>>> >> cop.
>>>> >>> I
>>>> >>>> just stated facts and didn't grovel.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I went home after the event and called the police department to
>>>> >>>> place
>>>> >>> a
>>>> >>>> complaint against an officer because he was totally insensitive to
>>>> >> the
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> fact that I couldn't find the trash can due to my blindness and
>>>> >>>> for
>>>> >>> his
>>>> >>>> failure to identify himself - I thought I was talking to just
>>>> >>>> another
>>>> >>>> person at the rally who objected to my putting the dog crap under
>>>> >>>> the
>>>> >>>> bush.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I got a call back from the seargent and it turned out that the
>>>> >>>> same
>>>> >>>> seargent was there! He didn't identify himself to me either! The
>>>> >>>> seargent said that he observed me letting Landon defecate, saw me
>>>> >>>> competently pick it up, and throw it under the bush. He wondered
>>>> >> why,
>>>> >>> if
>>>> >>>> I was really blind, how could I know where the pile was to pick
>>>> >>>> up.
>>>> >> I
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> told him that we are all trained in the arts of picking up dog
>>>> >>>> crap -
>>>> >>> it
>>>> >>>> was part of the curriculum of the guide dog schools. He was
>>>> >> surprized
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> that the blind could learn how to find the pile their dog leaves.
>>>> >>>> So
>>>> >>> that
>>>> >>>> told me that not only did he not know the law, he didn't know
>>>> >> anything
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> about blind people either.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I called the office of our City Disability Coordinator and have
>>>> >>>> not
>>>> >>> heard
>>>> >>>> back from them yet. I called my City Council member's office and
>>>> >>> talked
>>>> >>>> to somebody there. They thought that I would still have to go to
>>>> >>>> the
>>>> >>>> inaccessible Traffic Court, or maybe, they could come to a
>>>> >>>> downtown
>>>> >>>> location that I could get to. He was going to check on that and
> get
>>>> >>> back
>>>> >>>> to me. He also said he knew of someone at the Police Department
>>>> >>>> who
>>>> >>> dealt
>>>> >>>> with disability issues.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Some of my friends thought I should go public with this by
>>>> >>>> contacting
>>>> >>> a
>>>> >>>> lawyer on KSUI-TV named Mike Turko. He has a segment called"Turko
>>>> >>> Files"
>>>> >>>> and he gets contacted by lots of people with all kinds of problems
>>>> >> and
>>>> >>> he
>>>> >>>> helps the problems to be solved and goes public with them. My CCB
>>>> >>> (ACB)
>>>> >>>> chapter members went to him about SD TRansit refusing to put bus
>>>> >>> changes
>>>> >>>> and meetings in a format readable by the blind. The website was
>>>> >>>> also
>>>> >>>> inaccessible as well. After Turko did two seperate segments on
>>>> >>> KUSI-TV on
>>>> >>>> this, Transit made the needed changes. I told my friends that I'd
>>>> >>> save
>>>> >>>> Turko for later if needed!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Has anyone else had this problem and what did you do about it?
>>>> >> Thanks.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Regards,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Linda and Landon
>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> >>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> >>>> for
>>>> >>>> nagdu:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40ve
>>>> >>> rizon.net
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
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> for
>>>> >>> nagdu:
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>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
>>>> >>> 40ngc.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lindagwizdak%40pe
>>>> >> oplepc.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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> pc.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> My blog:
>>>> http://wayneism.blogspot.com
>>>> My websites:
>>>> www.wayneism.com
>>>> www.whitecaneday.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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>
> --
> My blog:
> http://wayneism.blogspot.com
> My websites:
> www.wayneism.com
> www.whitecaneday.org
>
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