[nagdu] Stop the Personal Attacks!

[Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)]

Marian/Cheryll, 
First, Cheryll, I am sorry if I upset you. 
All I was trying to say is 
1. You have every right to be angry. 
2. You do have recourse, though probably not anything dealing with the
ADA. 
3. The minister does have a boss, and you can always talk to that
person. 
Churches and their officials do not operate with impunity. 
4. If the church is involved with preparing or serving food you can
probably go to the health department of your county and tell them about
the dog that was on the premaces. 
5. Show your husband the post you made on this subject, he has every
right to know that this still hurts you deeply. What happens there is
between you two.  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 3:33 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Stop the Personal Attacks!

Dear All,
    The mesages on this thread are getting too personal! This message is
absolutely uncalled for! It not only attacks Charlene, it attacks her
husband! Furthermore, do you all realize that churches are, for the most
part, exempt from the ADA regulations unless they offer services other
than religious services to which the general public is invited, i.e.,
bingo, public meeting space, etc.?

Fraternally,
Marion Gwizdala


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] allergies v. service animals


> Know too that your church has an organizational higharacy and you can
> probably tell the higher-ups what's going on, same as you would if the
> pastor was mishandling money or doing something inappropriate with a
> parisohner.
> And yeah, Linda is right, why is your husband still playing the organ
at
> a church that treated his wife so badly?
> No wonder you're bitter having to crawl into bed next to that every
> night.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of lindagwizdak at peoplepc.com
> Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 1:58 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] allergies v. service animals
>
> Hi Charlene,
> You know what - get a new church and also get your husband to leave
> playing the organ there and he go to your new church with you.
>
> I didn't go to church for YEARS before I found the one I attend now.
I
> go to Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in San Diego.  There are several
of
> us with guide dogs and nobody bats an eye.  Nine years ago, when I
> joined Good Shepherd, the pastor even blessed and welcomed our dogs
> there!  They are members who guide us around!  We even have our own
> relief area for the dogs.
>
> Our church has a very friendly congregation and have always been
> welcoming to blind and disabled people.  I take my turn in serving
> donuts and coffee and I served on the Council.  I left and another
blind
> woman came on Council as an Elder.  Because of the prohibitive cost,
we
> are unable to provide full wheelchair access - built in 1930 and
> rennovated in the 1950s.  Way before the ADA. We do have a ramp to
allow
> access to the sanctuary and the office.
> In the Parish House, we have limited access. We have an electric chair
> that goes up the steps but you have to get out of your wheelchair to
do
> this.
> But the wheelchair using people at our church can transfer out and
ride
> the chairlift up. For us blind, we have large print and Braille
> bulletins - we pay a blind transcriptionist to do this.
>
> I really hate the hypocracy of alot of church people - like your
> congregation.  UGHHH!!!  They don't seem to "get it" that Jesus would
> welcome the guide dogs!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charlene Ota" <caota at hawaii.rr.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] allergies v. service animals
>
>
>> Oh boy, you guys, you've just done my heart good with this
> discussion!!!
>>
>> When people where I go to church found out I was getting a guide dog,
>> there
>> were some who made me feel a whole lot less than welcome.  The
> pastor's
>> wife
>> asked me: "You're not going to bring that dog to church are you?" I
> said
>> yes
>> I am and she pointed out about the people who have allergies, you
> know.
>> And
>> why did I have to bring it to church. I finally said I could go
> elsewhere
>> if
>> that would be better!  That kind of stopped that particular
> conversation,
>> but others had their digs, too.  Finally, we were sent an e-mail by
> the
>> person who helps find transportation who proceeded to tell us that
now
>
>> we'd
>> made it just too difficult for her to find us a ride so we could just
> take
>> care of it ourselves from now on and why did we have to bring that
dog
>
>> since
>> you know there are people including "the writer of the e-mail) who
> have
>> allergies, you know! And on and on!  Now, don't you think it was
>> interesting
>> that for a couple of years, this lawyer friend of the pastor's wife
> could
>> bring her stupid little dog in a bag because the dog had separation
>> anxiety
>> so she couldn't leave it home? Nobody gave her a hard time but rolled
> out
>> the red carpet because I guess she wasn't quite the second-class
> citezen
>> like me.  My husband still goes back evenings to play the organ oon
>> Sundays,
>> but I have a hard time with it and don't show up there very often.
> We've
>> found a much better place to go Sunday mornings.  They're so
> sheltered,
>> they
>> can't even stand having an interpreter there if someone deaf attends
> the
>> church.  It's pitiful that's how the attitude is in some of our
> churches.
>> I
>> know that some of that congregation don't feel the same way, but
> somehow,
>> it's just not very welcoming to know that there are enough who do and
>> they're the ones that don't waste any time making their views known,
>> either.
>> Funny thing, too, one evening at a potluck, someone sat me down by
one
> of
>> the complainers and before I could even turn around to say hello they
> were
>> gone.  And yet, that person is such a pillar in the church, whatever!
>>
>> Sorry guys, but guess you got my venting, but it feels good to share
> it
>> and
>> get it out!
>>
>> Charlene
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 11:25 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] allergies v. service animals
>>
>> Bunny,
>>
>> Well put!  I've attempted to express the same thing on the issue a
> fuew
>> times but end up getting super snarly and have to give it up.
/smile/
>
>> Like
>> you, I know people who take responsibility for their own allergies
and
>> asthma, as well as for MCS and the like.  But I know too many others
> who
>> honestly expect everyone around them, including the general public,
to
> go
>> through enormous efforts so the allergy-sufferer won't have to take a
>> pill...  The same principle, IMO, applies to people with dog phobias.
>> Xanax, anyone?  Every heard of a shrink?  /smile/  If you would
prefer
> to
>> move from the priority seating area (as they call it here) where you
>> didn't
>> belong in the first place without a fuss, then you are welcome to
deal
>
>> with
>> your fears and anxieties as you see fit, and I respect your decision.
>> Just
>> don't expect me to deal with them, thank you.  I had this happen
once,
>
>> only
>> the person across the aisle spent much of the bus ride telling me
that
> the
>> person I heard moving away was afraid of my dog, didn't I think?  She
> got
>> off where I did and needed our guidance to the train, so had plenty
of
>> opportunity to repeat herself on the subject.  /lol/  Since it wasn't
> any
>> of
>> her business, I just repeated nonchalantly that I didn't know,
perhaps
> it
>> was so, but since the other woman moved away from the dog it was a
>> nonissue
>> as far as I could tell.  /lol/  I gave a more coherent, informative
> answer
>> the first time she brought it up, of course; but sometimes people
just
>
>> won't
>> let things go, so the best one can do is repeatedly refuse to give
> them
>> what
>> they want (I couldn't tell and didn't care, frankly).  Has anyone
ever
>> noticed that dogs and horses, even cats, get the reward refusal
aspect
> of
>> operant conditioning far more quickly than supposedly intelligent
> humans?
>> /snotty smile/  I prefer to deal more directly and assertively,
> frankly,
>> but
>> I have discovered in my new life as a blind person that it doesn't
> seem to
>> work as well with some people for some reason.  If they won't back
off
>
>> when
>> asked firmly and reasonably, I've stopped wasting my energy on giving
> them
>> a
>> reaction.  Sigh.
>>
>> Back to the subject.  A majority of our dogs' rearing and training
> goes to
>> ensuring that the working guide will be able to go into any human
>> situation
>> with manners above reproach at all times.  We're taught to maintain
>> exceptional grooming and health standards to ensure our dogs are fit
> to go
>> into restaurants and grocery stores.  Guide dogs schools have, for a
>> number
>> of years, been working with various hypo-allergenic breeds to address
> the
>> issue of allergies and asthma, not only for blind allergy-sufferers,
> but
>> also for the sake of allergic family members, etc.  And, to throw in
>> phobias
>> again, the majority of our dogs are specifically bred to be
> nonaggressive
>> from the get-go, while every aspect of their socialization and
> training is
>> designed to reinforce their lack of aggression.  The owner-trainers I
> know
>> all test their prospects for aggression before anything else and are
> ready
>> to retire a dog in a heartbeat if it shows aggression at any time
> during
>> the
>> training process.  I had a scare that way during convention, even
> though
>> my
>> youngster had never shown the least sign before.  Further observation
> back
>> in our natural habitat and as we settled into a new home with another
> dog,
>> who can be aggressive, showed that Mitzi was still the peace-loving
> soul
>> she's always been, if a sometimes very snotty soul.  Thank heavens I
> was
>> able to address the behavior effectively.  I haven't had a chance to
> see
>> if
>> it recurs in the presence of other guide dogs yet, but at least I
know
> I
>> can
>> deal with it at the first sign.  Before it gets out of hand.  Live
and
>> learn.
>>
>> The point being that we take extraordinary efforts to avoid any
> negative
>> impact on the public from our dogs before we ever put on the harness
> and
>> head out the door.  We just accept that this is going to be a natural
> part
>> of our lifestyle and a significant chunk of our daily schedules --
not
> to
>> mention our budgets! -- as part of the package that falls under the
>> heading
>> "guide dog user."  So, no, we should not have to put up with being
> hassled
>> or interfered with or to have to jump through hoops because others
> won't
>> take responsibility for their own issues.  Now to convince those
folks
> who
>> simply can't grasp that simple concept...
>>
>> But that's why we organize and lobby and work collectively to address
>> individual instances legally and discuss ways to deal with the
hassles
>> proactively yet positively (it would be more satisfying to bite
people
>> sometimes; metaphorically, or course) without giving up our
> self-respect
>> and
>> independence by letting others infringe on our rights by just taking
> it so
>> people won't think we're not nice, non-uppity blind people...
>>
>> It's always great to hear other guide dog users' experiences and
their
>> responses to them, along with the discussions about the various
points
> of
>> view on one should or should not, along with how one actualy does at
> the
>> time (not always the same thing; at least, not for me!).  And it's
> also
>> nice
>> to have a forum to discuss my own learning progress with people who
>> actually
>> understand the issues.  /smile/
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Bunny Davidson
>> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:07 AM
>> To: National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: [nagdu] allergies v. service animals
>>
>>
>> HI all,
>>
>> It is my opinion that there are those among the general public who
> feel &
>> express that their needs superseed the needs of anyone in the
minority
> -be
>> it anyone they consider not as good as them- like race, sex,
> education,
>> sight, mobility, hearing, whatever- there is a sense of superiority
> and
>> entitlement that abounds in our society...
>>
>> this is why our goverment had to make laws saying discrimination is
>> illegal
>> in the first place!  yet with laws and laws you still cant legislate
>> selfishness and piosness in people.
>>
>> As for the airline dealing (or NOT) with pets, service animals and
>> passenger
>> sensitivity issues... It is my opinion that a person with a service
> dog
>> should not have to jump thru hoops to claim their seat on the plane-
> no
>> prior notice should be required from the disabled with service
> animals,
>> and
>> anyone on plane who has a non lethal or non disability condition who
>> complains or wants to make a commotion about the service dog...
should
> be
>> given the option of moving their seat if possable, or being quiet -
it
> is
>> my
>> opinion anyone with allergies or asma should not go to confined
places
>> without their meidications, inhailers et... unfortunatley we as
> disabled
>> needing service animals can not remidy our situations with meds or
>> inhailers-thus it is not our problem!
>>
>>
>> For instance, my brother is very very allergic to cats and to
> perfumes...
>> he
>> carries antihistimine pills and an inhailer because as a plumber he
> has to
>> go to work in peoples homes who have cats and wear fragrances...air
>> fresheners et...  he learned years ago, that without his meds his
eyes
>> swell, he cant breath and may need the emergency room.  so HE IS
>> RESPONSABLE
>> TO PROTECT HIMSELF!  Not tell all his customers they must get their
> cats
>> out, clean their homes, and air it all out without chemicals so he
can
>> install a toilet!!!
>>
>> so why shouldnt they who have allergies who must fly carry their
> medicines
>> and be pro active rather than try to make the citizens of a free
> country
>> like ours who use s.a. jump thru hoops or try to pass rules where we
> cant
>> use our animals????
>>
>> If my brother has to fly on the plane, he doesnt go around the plane
> like
>> a
>> victim of "her perfume" or " his aftershave" demanding these folks go
> wash
>> off their sents!!! No , he takes his medicine before he boards!
>>
>> this whole allergy thing is just another excuse by the selfish public
> to
>> deny the disabled their rights to use whatever mobility /functioning
> aids
>> they can to live an independent and peacefull life...
>>
>> come on, who needs all this attention (neg. attention) every time we
> want
>> to
>> fly, go out to eat et... I prefer to be left the heck alone when im
>> eating,
>> not have some know it all who never read the ada, tell me I cant have
> my
>> dog
>> , or need certification papers or some other nauseating harrasment!
>>
>> ok, im done now-  ah...............thats righ, breathe!
>>
>> oh btw, yesterday My Service dog and I enjoyed a beatuful birthday
> dinner
>> out - since we had over a foot of snow, no one was in the restarant
> except
>> us =up untill the end of the meal...= A which time some customer
> walked in
>> to be seated behind the hostess and says oh... look the puppy
-yeckity
>> yeckity yeckity as she goes right over and gets my dog all stired up,
> pets
>> ontop of the "service dog do not pet"
>> badge on the top of the vest!!!  So of course, i had to say, mam
> please
>> dont- the dog is working, your attention to her can be dangerous to
me
> as
>> she can not do her job if you are interfearing by petting, talking
and
>> playing with her... oh well most of the dinner was peacefull! lol
>>
>> respectfully
>> bunny
>>
>> <<Well, Becca:The answer is that, as Mike pointed out, the needs of
> the
>> disabled are notconsidered as important as those of pretty much
> anyone,
>> includingallergy-sufferers.Despite my sarcasm in a previous post, I
> can
>> understand that allergies canbe severe or unpleasant. It seems to me,
>> though, that the user of a serviceanimal need not, nor should he be,
> the
>> one
>> required to make theaccommodation. Plus allergies aren't considered,
>> legally, a disability.Most allergy-sufferers I know, including my
> sister,
>> wouldn't want themselvesconsidered disabled as it might limit their
> choice
>> of work, etc.  Dan >>
>> _________________________________________________________________
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