[nagdu] Getting Organized!

Marion & Martin swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Sun Jun 7 10:07:34 UTC 2009 

Dan,
    Thank you very much for your kind words about me! There are many in our 
movement who are willing to take up the fight! Perhaps this incident in 
Texas will help underscore our need for a NAGDU division in that state and 
every other. If there is a member on this list who does not have a NAGDU 
division in their state, perhaps they would be willing to help out in the 
organization of one. There is a great deal of support from the NAGDU Board 
and, as this incident reveals, a need for an organized guide dog user 
movement in every state.

Fraternally,
Marion



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] More information on Taco Bell incident


> Hi, guys.
>
> I noticed, by the way, that before Wayne found the additional information
> about the incident, so many of us were quick to condemn the lady who was
> suffering the access denial.
> "oh, what must she have done, her dog must have not been in control."
> ...that's what I read in several letters.
> If we blind are so quick to condemn other people without the facts than 
> how
> will we ever make progress?
> Where is our sense of solidarity?
> In access issues I automatically assume the worst of the restaurant and
> whatever, not my fellow blind guide dog user.
> That' me, anyway.
> I've noticed this type of thing over my years in the blind movement
> generally.  We talk a good fight, but every time there's a problem I'll 
> hear
> someone saying "Oh, maybe we shouldn't  get involved, what if the person 
> did
> something to provoke it"..etc.
>
> In this regard I enthusiastically praise Marion who by his attitude and
> actions demonstrates to me a spirit of commitment to advancing guide dog
> access as part of NAGDU's agenda and reason for being.
>
>
> The only thing I wonder is what the idiot manager would have done  if the
> victim had said "yes, it's a Seeing eye dog"?
> The school name distinction is not a cross I'm willing to die on, just my
> personal view.
> Here in Florida I heard "Seeing Eye dog" when I was young and didn't know
> there was another name until I started looking in to getting a dog--grin.
> When I lived in Ohio, every guide dog was a Pilot Dog.
> Once a Handyvan driver at OSU asked me if Evan was a Pilot Dog. I said,
> without thinking, "no, but he's a guide dog".
> I was told that only Pilot Dogs were allowed and we had to call the 
> manager
> who of course explained.
>
> Anyway, the lack of enforcement of the law in the case of the lady in 
> Texas
> and the ignorance and, I believe, nasty attitude of the Cops shows why we
> still have access issues after 80 years of guide dog use  in the US.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Dan W. and Carter Dog
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Linda Gwizdak
> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 12:41 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] More information on Taco Bell incident
>
> Hi Buddy,
> I know that a harness doesn't make a guide dog - you could put one on any
> dog but if it isn't trained to guide, it won't guide.
>
> It's more of what the harness shows visually.  You see a guide dog harness
> on a dog, you assume it is a guide dog.  You see a man wearing a military
> uniform, you assume he is a military man.
>
> It is what the harness symbolizes as much as a military uniform 
> symbolizes.
>
> Reading that article, I wonder what really happened in that Taco Bell. 
> The
> manager's actions make no sense.  The Seeing Eye celebrates its 80th year
> and it is amazing how much access denials we still get around the country.
> And that is for guide dogs!  In comparison, there are so much more 
> problems
> of this type with people with hidden disabilities who have service dogs.
> That's what makes it such a shame when people abuse disabled people's 
> rights
> by bringing untrained dogs and passing them off as service dogs.  Just my
> observations.
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] More information on Taco Bell incident
>
>
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Allison Nastoff wrote:
>>
>>> I do wonder though if guide dog schools should stick with  traditional
>>> breeds like Labs and German Shepherds.  Maybe this would  make it easier
>>> for the public to trust that a dog is, in fact a  guide dog.
>>> Theoretically, someone could get a harness on the black  market, and put
>>> it on their pet poodle and say he's a guide dog.   The same could be 
>>> true
>
>>> for someone's pet Lab of course, but I just  think that sticking to a 
>>> few
>
>>> standard breeds might make the guide  dog access issue less confusing 
>>> for
>
>>> the public.  Just my opinion.
>>
>> I couldn't disagree with you more. For one thing, if we stuck to
>> "traditional breeds" and started doing so at the beginning, we'd all 
>> have
>
>> shepherds. But more to the point, well, actually, there are  several
>> points.
>>
>> 1) There are many kinds of service dogs, not just guide dogs, and if 
>> they
>
>> are task trained (etc. etc. etc.), they have the protection of  Federal
>> law. Many of these dogs are non-traditional breeds, even mixed  breeds.
>> Would you deny access to handlers of such dogs only to make  the issue
>> easier for the public?
>>
>> 2. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is absolutely no
>> magic in guide dog equipment. Moreover, there is no law that  stipulates
>> what constitutes proper working equipment for guide or, for  that matter,
>> any other service animal. Someone could as easily take  his pet dog
>> somewhere and as easily claim it to be a service dog. This  is a sticky
>> issue, but the issue of working equipment just clouds the  issue further.
>> A harness does not a guide dog make, nor does it prove  legitimacy. This
>> issue of "harnesses falling into the wrong hands" has  always, frankly,
>> puzzled me. A harness proves nothing, nor does it  give one service 
>> animal
>
>> more legal weight than another who might  require different equipment.
>> Whether or what equipment a dog wears  does not define it as a service
>> animal, and propagating statements to  the contrary can't help the larger
>> community of service dog owners,  especially those who don't require
>> specific equipment. (Besides,  anyone with the requisite skill set can
>> make a harness, this really  isn't any sort of arcane knowledge jealously
>> guarded by the guide dog  schools.)
>>
>> 3. None of this about sticking to "traditional breeds" takes into 
>> account
>
>> the needs or desires of owner trainers. Julie? Rox'e? Marti?  Let's say
>> one of you found a dog of just the right temperament but it  wasn't a
>> "traditional breed". Would you not find it a supreme waste  that you
>> couldn't use such a dog on the basis of its not conforming to  someone
>> else's idea of the "right" kind of dog?
>>
>> Don't forget that Jenine was just talking about some access trouble  she
>> had when she brought her (very traditional) Golden into a store  and
>> someone thought this couldn't possibly be a guide dog, because it  wasn't
>> a GSD. Would you like to so narrowly define what constitutes a  working
>> service animal? OK, consider this. Right now, the most common  breed of
>> service dog (especially guide dog) is the Labrador Retriever.  Several
>> decades ago, it was the German Shepherd dog. In several more  decades,
>> let's suppose this changes again. If we rigidly define that  only labs,
>> Goldens, GSD's, and lab/golden crosses are legitimate  service dogs and 
>> in
>
>> 30 years the labradoodle becomes dominant, how  would this affect such a
>> law? What do we do about people who,for one  reason or another, need to
>> use a boxer, or a poodle, or a Doberman?  Shall we deny them use of a
>> guide dog for which they may in all other  respects be suitable?
>>
>> Buddy
>>
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