[nagdu] More information on Taco Bell incident

Dan Weiner dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net
Sun Jun 7 14:56:09 UTC 2009


Hi, Marsha.

Dan W. here.
Your points are well-taken.
I'm convinced that NAGDU is really making a yeomen's effort to improve the
situation and in the process, change what it means to be blind.
I was commenting on a mind-set that I've seen too often.

In 2000, I had what I call a double-decker cab access issue in Columbus,
Ohio.
I call it that because the same company refused me a cab ride on one night.
When I wrote to some of the guide dog lists at that time, I got letters from
very nice empathetic people.
I also got a few which said something to the effect of:
"I've ridden cabs and never had things like that happen. I wonder if there
could be some other reason, like your dog's behavior or your attitude".
I have always tried to avoid defensive answers, but I can say honestly
neither was the case, my dog was well-groomed, well-behaved..etc."  Besides,
we know that dogs aren't robots and who knows what might happen in a Taco
Bell.
What if, for example, as happened to a friend of mine, the dog sniffed the
counter.
The handler did her best to keep the hound under control, but these things
happen.
Once with Evan, the little pink-nosed varmint stole a Peppermint Patty at a
drug store.
I would have been glad to pay or whatever, but I didn't hear about it until
the next time I went in when the owner of the franchise or manager had what
could be described as a hissy fit.
Would he, in the opinion of some of us, be in his rights to have chucked me
out?
I believe we have to be very careful with this puritanistic zeal we all seem
to have about "Oh, if the dog does this, then the business owner is in their
rights, so we'd all better be on 100 percent good behavior all the
time...yadayadayada."

Unless otherwise demonstrated to me, an access denial is an access denial
with no mitigating circumstances to excuse the ignorance and malicious
behavior of managers or whatever.

Now, Dan, what do you really think?--grin

Cordially,

Dan W. and Carter Dog  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marsha
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:19 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] More information on Taco Bell incident

I do not believe that any of us condemn this lady and her actions. Yes we
can all think, wonder, and or know how we would have handled the situation.
For many of us because we have been in the same situation. But that does not
mean by any means we have condemned her. Wanting to know more of the facts
of what happened, is NOT condemning her personality. 

I know that NAGDU is working hard, much harder than many of you all can see
from the outside, to make things like this not happen. 

Marsha 



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Dan Weiner
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:02 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] More information on Taco Bell incident

Hi, guys.

I noticed, by the way, that before Wayne found the additional information
about the incident, so many of us were quick to condemn the lady who was
suffering the access denial.
"oh, what must she have done, her dog must have not been in control."
...that's what I read in several letters.
If we blind are so quick to condemn other people without the facts than how
will we ever make progress?
Where is our sense of solidarity?
In access issues I automatically assume the worst of the restaurant and
whatever, not my fellow blind guide dog user. 
 That' me, anyway.
I've noticed this type of thing over my years in the blind movement
generally.  We talk a good fight, but every time there's a problem I'll hear
someone saying "Oh, maybe we shouldn't  get involved, what if the person did
something to provoke it"..etc.

In this regard I enthusiastically praise Marion who by his attitude and
actions demonstrates to me a spirit of commitment to advancing guide dog
access as part of NAGDU's agenda and reason for being. 


The only thing I wonder is what the idiot manager would have done  if the
victim had said "yes, it's a Seeing eye dog"?
The school name distinction is not a cross I'm willing to die on, just my
personal view.
Here in Florida I heard "Seeing Eye dog" when I was young and didn't know
there was another name until I started looking in to getting a dog--grin.
When I lived in Ohio, every guide dog was a Pilot Dog.
Once a Handyvan driver at OSU asked me if Evan was a Pilot Dog. I said,
without thinking, "no, but he's a guide dog".
I was told that only Pilot Dogs were allowed and we had to call the manager
who of course explained.

Anyway, the lack of enforcement of the law in the case of the lady in Texas
and the ignorance and, I believe, nasty attitude of the Cops shows why we
still have access issues after 80 years of guide dog use  in the US.

Cordially,

Dan W. and Carter Dog  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Linda Gwizdak
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 12:41 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] More information on Taco Bell incident

Hi Buddy,
I know that a harness doesn't make a guide dog - you could put one on any
dog but if it isn't trained to guide, it won't guide.

It's more of what the harness shows visually.  You see a guide dog harness
on a dog, you assume it is a guide dog.  You see a man wearing a military
uniform, you assume he is a military man.

It is what the harness symbolizes as much as a military uniform symbolizes.

Reading that article, I wonder what really happened in that Taco Bell.  The
manager's actions make no sense.  The Seeing Eye celebrates its 80th year
and it is amazing how much access denials we still get around the country. 
And that is for guide dogs!  In comparison, there are so much more problems
of this type with people with hidden disabilities who have service dogs. 
That's what makes it such a shame when people abuse disabled people's rights
by bringing untrained dogs and passing them off as service dogs.  Just my
observations.

Linda and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] More information on Taco Bell incident


>
> On Jun 6, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Allison Nastoff wrote:
>
>> I do wonder though if guide dog schools should stick with  
>> traditional breeds like Labs and German Shepherds.  Maybe this would  
>> make it easier for the public to trust that a dog is, in fact a  guide
dog.
>> Theoretically, someone could get a harness on the black  market, and put 
>> it on their pet poodle and say he's a guide dog.   The same could be true

>> for someone's pet Lab of course, but I just  think that sticking to a 
>> few

>> standard breeds might make the guide  dog access issue less confusing 
>> for

>> the public.  Just my opinion.
>
> I couldn't disagree with you more. For one thing, if we stuck to 
> "traditional breeds" and started doing so at the beginning, we'd all  
> have

> shepherds. But more to the point, well, actually, there are  several 
> points.
>
> 1) There are many kinds of service dogs, not just guide dogs, and if  
> they

> are task trained (etc. etc. etc.), they have the protection of  
> Federal law. Many of these dogs are non-traditional breeds, even mixed
breeds.
> Would you deny access to handlers of such dogs only to make  the issue 
> easier for the public?
>
> 2. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is absolutely no 
> magic in guide dog equipment. Moreover, there is no law that  
> stipulates what constitutes proper working equipment for guide or, for  
> that matter, any other service animal. Someone could as easily take  
> his pet dog somewhere and as easily claim it to be a service dog. This  
> is a sticky issue, but the issue of working equipment just clouds the
issue further.
> A harness does not a guide dog make, nor does it prove  legitimacy. 
> This issue of "harnesses falling into the wrong hands" has  always, 
> frankly, puzzled me. A harness proves nothing, nor does it  give one 
> service animal

> more legal weight than another who might  require different equipment. 
> Whether or what equipment a dog wears  does not define it as a service 
> animal, and propagating statements to  the contrary can't help the 
> larger community of service dog owners,  especially those who don't 
> require specific equipment. (Besides,  anyone with the requisite skill 
> set can make a harness, this really  isn't any sort of arcane 
> knowledge jealously guarded by the guide dog  schools.)
>
> 3. None of this about sticking to "traditional breeds" takes into  
> account

> the needs or desires of owner trainers. Julie? Rox'e? Marti?  Let's 
> say one of you found a dog of just the right temperament but it  
> wasn't a "traditional breed". Would you not find it a supreme waste  
> that you couldn't use such a dog on the basis of its not conforming to  
> someone else's idea of the "right" kind of dog?
>
> Don't forget that Jenine was just talking about some access trouble  
> she had when she brought her (very traditional) Golden into a store  
> and someone thought this couldn't possibly be a guide dog, because it  
> wasn't a GSD. Would you like to so narrowly define what constitutes a  
> working service animal? OK, consider this. Right now, the most common  
> breed of service dog (especially guide dog) is the Labrador Retriever.  
> Several decades ago, it was the German Shepherd dog. In several more  
> decades, let's suppose this changes again. If we rigidly define that  
> only labs, Goldens, GSD's, and lab/golden crosses are legitimate  
> service dogs and in

> 30 years the labradoodle becomes dominant, how  would this affect such 
> a law? What do we do about people who,for one  reason or another, need 
> to use a boxer, or a poodle, or a Doberman?  Shall we deny them use of 
> a guide dog for which they may in all other  respects be suitable?
>
> Buddy
>
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> 



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