[nagdu] Lines in the sand?

Mon Jun 8 15:57:28 UTC 2009

My point with my comments wasn't to come off as being holy, but simply to
say that with rights come responsibilities. I believe that rights are not
simply entitlements which we can assert whenever we feel as though we
haven't gotten what we deserve. I think that it is important to look at the
whole story including all of the facts when confronted with allegations of
violations. Sometimes it's just plainly a case of violating someone's
rights, and sometimes it's a question of someone not understanding what
their rights or responsibilities are, or, from my perspective, what those
rights entitle a person too. 

Now, I'll climb down from the soap box and allow others to use it. Please
don't throw tomatoes, just sprinkle me with holy water. (grin)

Cordially,

Joy with Belle who thinks this whole subject is not worth waking up to
discuss.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Dan Weiner
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:24 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lines in the sand?

Linda and all.

This is a devil's advocate talking and not someone trying to argue with you:
What if your dog had licked the Muslim shop owner.  You can't see what your
dog's doing and sometimes these things happen, dogs can be pretty  subtle
about things. Would your Muslim shop owner have been in his rights to throw
you out?

I've met a lot of handlers who tell me they can't tolerate this or that or
they wouldn't let their dogs do this and that and then I find out later from
them that such and such happened after all at some point. We should 
be careful how critical we all are because it'll come to bite us in the
butt, to be blunt about it. 
That includes yours truly.
I remember as a new guide dog user I was sure that I wouldn't let my dog do
this that and the other and all of these things happened at one time--smile.
Life goes on.

I just think we all need to take a deep breathe and stop being holier than
thou.  Remember, no one in particular is being pointed out.  I've been
guilty of it too.

Cordially,

Dan W. and the Carter Dog 
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Linda Gwizdak
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 12:57 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lines in the sand?

Hi all,
I get irritated when guide dog users just drop their dog's leash, the dog
wanders off, and I have to say something because the person is oblivious to
the dog's whereabouts or what it is doing - usually snarfing stuff or trying
to beg food from me.

This same owner allowed another person to feed her dog in harness and the
dog developed a begging habit - which she did at restaurants. Very
inappropriate.  I read that person the riot act and made it very clear that
he was to stop feeding people's guide dogs or the result wouldn't be very
pretty.  He stopped doing that and the begging guide dog retired last year.

I find that people always judge us on the actions of another person.  Like
it or not, people seem to think we are all the same and treat us according
to what experience they had with a previous guide dog user.

Access rights and responsibilities go hand in hand.  Our dogs will be more
welcome when they are clean, quiet, and well behaved.  I went into a
Muslim-owned grocery store with my dog. The owner was worried that my dog
would come over to him and lick him (Muslims believe that dog saliva is
unclean).  When he saw that I had my dog under my complete control and he
wasn't going to get licked, he relaxed and helped me find what I went in the
store for.

Joy, Julie, I've seen the same kinds of bad behaved guide dogs and uncaring
people.  You can't tell them squat but they'll yell the loudest that their
rights have been violated. And, yes,we can be assertive but not offensive
with the public.  Most people are reasonable - but there's always a few...

Joy, the people who come and visit yoou and let their dogs crap in your yard
and jump on your couch - well - are these people really friends? They
clearly are disrespecting you as a friend.  When I visit anyone in their
homes or wherever, I always keep Landon on leash - unless I'm invited to
unleash him.  Landon always finds trouble so I need to keep tabs on him.

REgards,

Linda and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 9:29 AM
Subject: [nagdu] Lines in the sand?

> Dan makes some good points about us maybe being too judgmental. I'd
> counter
> that with my own personal attitude that I'm not so much being openly
> judgmental as trying to set and maintain high standards, but that only
> really goes for myself and my dog.
>
> So, I'll pose this question to everyone, again appreciating the
> intelligent
> discussion here.
>
> What behavior in a dog who is part of a working team would you deem 
> unacceptable? What offenses might cause you as a business owner to ask 
> someone to remove his or her dog?
>
> I think for me, it's about control. If someone is really trying to 
> control

> a
> dog with undesirable behaviors like barking or scavenging, I'm much 
> more likely to be lenient, but if the person seems oblivious or is 
> clearly ignoring the behaviors, it tends to get a bit old.
>
> One of my big buttons is dogs who are allowed to roam around places of 
> business. One lady I know has a very bad habit of, once comfortable in 
> a place, i.e., after walking in the door, of turning her dog loose to 
> roam around while she looks at things or talks to people. When she 
> used to visit my office at my last job, I had to ask that the dog stay 
> on leash with her as he made a beeline for my trash can. The next time 
> I saw him, he was wearing a basket muzzle and again allowed to roam 
> freely because with said muzzle he couldn't get into things. <sigh>
>
> The one thing I am pretty annoyed by in terms of the public's reaction 
> to
> us
> is the whole grooming issue. People don't generally know what a well 
> groomed
> dog is and all sorts of accusations come up about dogs not being groomed
> well, smelling, being dirty and shedding.
>
> I'll admit to being a neat freak when it comes to my dogs and a 
> grooming fanatic. That doesn't mean everyone else is and it doesn't 
> mean that every dog who isn't ready for the West Minster show ring is 
> filthy and unkempt.
>
> I've seen a number of guide dogs who could use maybe a good brush or 
> bath
> or
> who could have some skin  issues looked into by their vet, sure, but 
> saying
> they rose to the level of denial of access is a bit much.
>
> I've also heard of one denial case that really brings the grooming 
> point home. Someone years ago, before the ADA even, was told to leave 
> a fast food place because her dog was dirty and offensive. She'd just 
> come in from a pouring rain storm. Everyone else coming in behind her 
> was just as wet. She
> fought the denial and won under state law.
>
> My point? There are some things I think we as handlers can hold each 
> other to in terms of acceptable public behavior and there are some 
> things perceived as unacceptable by others that we as handlers can 
> band together to support and explain. My retort anymore is "Would you 
> rather have my dog or some of the kids I've seen in here?"
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
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