[nagdu] Lines in the sand?

Tue Jun 9 03:04:21 UTC 2009

Hi Dan,
I know how easy it is for dogs to lick people - Landon's a champion licker 
and most of the time he sneaks the licks in and I don't detect it. (grin!). 
With the Muslim guy, I knew ahead of time that they don't like contact with 
dogs so I made sure I was standing far enough away from him with me holding 
my dog close to his collar so he couldn't lick the guy!

And no, he wouldn't have the right to throw me out for a little lick. He 
woould also have the responsibility to make sure he wasn't standing on top 
of me within Landon's tongue range.  He might have the right to throw me out 
if I was letting my dog be all over everyone in the store and being out of 
control.

Cheers,

Linda and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lines in the sand?

> Linda and all.
>
> This is a devil's advocate talking and not someone trying to argue with 
> you:
> What if your dog had licked the Muslim shop owner.  You can't see what 
> your
> dog's doing and sometimes these things happen, dogs can be pretty  subtle
> about things.
> Would your Muslim shop owner have been in his rights to throw you out?
>
> I've met a lot of handlers who tell me they can't tolerate this or that or
> they wouldn't let their dogs do this and that and then I find out later 
> from
> them that such and such happened after all at some point. We should
> be careful how critical we all are because it'll come to bite us in the
> butt, to be blunt about it.
> That includes yours truly.
> I remember as a new guide dog user I was sure that I wouldn't let my dog 
> do
> this that and the other and all of these things happened at one 
> time--smile.
> Life goes on.
>
> I just think we all need to take a deep breathe and stop being holier than
> thou.  Remember, no one in particular is being pointed out.  I've been
> guilty of it too.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Dan W. and the Carter Dog
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Linda Gwizdak
> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 12:57 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lines in the sand?
>
> Hi all,
> I get irritated when guide dog users just drop their dog's leash, the dog
> wanders off, and I have to say something because the person is oblivious 
> to
> the dog's whereabouts or what it is doing - usually snarfing stuff or 
> trying
> to beg food from me.
>
> This same owner allowed another person to feed her dog in harness and the
> dog developed a begging habit - which she did at restaurants. Very
> inappropriate.  I read that person the riot act and made it very clear 
> that
> he was to stop feeding people's guide dogs or the result wouldn't be very
> pretty.  He stopped doing that and the begging guide dog retired last 
> year.
>
> I find that people always judge us on the actions of another person.  Like
> it or not, people seem to think we are all the same and treat us according
> to what experience they had with a previous guide dog user.
>
> Access rights and responsibilities go hand in hand.  Our dogs will be more
> welcome when they are clean, quiet, and well behaved.  I went into a
> Muslim-owned grocery store with my dog. The owner was worried that my dog
> would come over to him and lick him (Muslims believe that dog saliva is
> unclean).  When he saw that I had my dog under my complete control and he
> wasn't going to get licked, he relaxed and helped me find what I went in 
> the
> store for.
>
> Joy, Julie, I've seen the same kinds of bad behaved guide dogs and 
> uncaring
> people.  You can't tell them squat but they'll yell the loudest that their
> rights have been violated. And, yes,we can be assertive but not offensive
> with the public.  Most people are reasonable - but there's always a few...
>
> Joy, the people who come and visit yoou and let their dogs crap in your 
> yard
> and jump on your couch - well - are these people really friends? They
> clearly are disrespecting you as a friend.  When I visit anyone in their
> homes or wherever, I always keep Landon on leash - unless I'm invited to
> unleash him.  Landon always finds trouble so I need to keep tabs on him.
>
> REgards,
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 9:29 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Lines in the sand?
>
>
>> Dan makes some good points about us maybe being too judgmental. I'd
>> counter
>> that with my own personal attitude that I'm not so much being openly
>> judgmental as trying to set and maintain high standards, but that only
>> really goes for myself and my dog.
>>
>> So, I'll pose this question to everyone, again appreciating the
>> intelligent
>> discussion here.
>>
>> What behavior in a dog who is part of a working team would you deem
>> unacceptable? What offenses might cause you as a business owner to ask
>> someone to remove his or her dog?
>>
>> I think for me, it's about control. If someone is really trying to 
>> control
>
>> a
>> dog with undesirable behaviors like barking or scavenging, I'm much more
>> likely to be lenient, but if the person seems oblivious or is clearly
>> ignoring the behaviors, it tends to get a bit old.
>>
>> One of my big buttons is dogs who are allowed to roam around places of
>> business. One lady I know has a very bad habit of, once comfortable in a
>> place, i.e., after walking in the door, of turning her dog loose to roam
>> around while she looks at things or talks to people. When she used to
>> visit
>> my office at my last job, I had to ask that the dog stay on leash with 
>> her
>> as he made a beeline for my trash can. The next time I saw him, he was
>> wearing a basket muzzle and again allowed to roam freely because with 
>> said
>> muzzle he couldn't get into things. <sigh>
>>
>> The one thing I am pretty annoyed by in terms of the public's reaction to
>> us
>> is the whole grooming issue. People don't generally know what a well
>> groomed
>> dog is and all sorts of accusations come up about dogs not being groomed
>> well, smelling, being dirty and shedding.
>>
>> I'll admit to being a neat freak when it comes to my dogs and a grooming
>> fanatic. That doesn't mean everyone else is and it doesn't mean that 
>> every
>> dog who isn't ready for the West Minster show ring is filthy and unkempt.
>>
>> I've seen a number of guide dogs who could use maybe a good brush or bath
>> or
>> who could have some skin  issues looked into by their vet, sure, but
>> saying
>> they rose to the level of denial of access is a bit much.
>>
>> I've also heard of one denial case that really brings the grooming point
>> home. Someone years ago, before the ADA even, was told to leave a fast
>> food
>> place because her dog was dirty and offensive. She'd just come in from a
>> pouring rain storm. Everyone else coming in behind her was just as wet.
>> She
>> fought the denial and won under state law.
>>
>> My point? There are some things I think we as handlers can hold each 
>> other
>> to in terms of acceptable public behavior and there are some things
>> perceived as unacceptable by others that we as handlers can band together
>> to
>> support and explain. My retort anymore is "Would you rather have my dog 
>> or
>> some of the kids I've seen in here?"
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
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