[nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

Tue Mar 3 16:26:53 UTC 2009

Hi Marion,

The 5th Amendment applies to Federal action against individuals, and
State action is also incorporated through the 14th Amendment.  The U.S.
Constitution also has a clause, known as the "Contract Clause," which
disallows the government from interfering in private contracts.  So the
5th Amendment really wouldn't apply because it is not the feds that are
doing the taking.

If a school contract states something like, "Upon graduation, the
student has full ownership of the dog, unless the school deems the
student to be blah, blah, blah," then this really is allusory.  This
means that it is not really an enforceable contract because the school
has not offered sufficient legal detriment.  I would be interested in
exactly how the below contract is worded.  A school may contract to
place conditions on ownership, but a blanket "you own the dog until we
feel you should no longer own the dog" is not ownership and thus is
allusory.

Craig

Craig Borne
NHTSA/DOT
(202) 493-0627 
craig.borne at dot.gov

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:40 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

Nicole,
    If this is the case with GDB, then it doesn't really sound like 
ownership. Though I am not an attorney, it seems as if the 5th Amendment
to 
the U.S. Constitution states that I cannot be deprived of my property 
without due process! To me, that seems to imply that, without sufficient

cause and evidence, if I own something, including a dog, no one has the 
right to take it from me without a hearing. At the same time, if I do
not 
own the property, the owner of the property has the right to repossess
it at 
any time and for any reason allowed by the agreement between us to use
the 
property. It would be interesting to read the various ownership/lease
(or 
whatever terminology is used) from the various schools.
    So, what do you think? If I decided to write an article for the
Braille 
Monitor about this issue, do you think all of the schools would
cooperate by 
sending me their agreements? If not, what sort of objections would I
face? 
Do I have the right to see them? Would such an article be of interest?

Fraternally,
Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicole B. Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

> If you are allowed, do you mind me asking what school this was? It 
> certainly
> does not sound like something that GDB would do. In any case, GDB has
the
> right to take the dog, regardless of ownership.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>
>
> Dear Ron and All,
>    The problem with a school retaining ownership is the holding of
this
> fact over the heads of the user. In many cases, graduates who do not
have
> ownership are hesitant to ask for help when needed, thus compromising
the
> integrity of the team due to training or behavioral issues.
Furthermore,
> handlers who do not own their dogs have little recourse should the
school
> decide to repossess the dog and the schools need no justification for
this
> action. Lest anyone think a school would not do such a thing, I will
share 
> a
> real example of this occuring.
>    I advocated for a couple in Florida who were very outspoken and, 
> because
> of this, made a few adversaries. Several of these adversaries filed
> complaints against the couple, charging that their dogs were out of 
> control
> and were being abused. One of the complaintants was a guide dog user
who
> worked for the state agency for the blind where each member of the
couple
> was engaged in rehabilitation. This person's dog was agressive toward
the
> wife's dog and the dog naturally defended itself. This state employee
> contacted the school and asserted that the wife's dog was the agressor
and
> had been aggressive toward other dogs at the rehabilitation center.
The
> complaintant also stated that the wife had been barred from bringing
her 
> dog
> to the rehab center. This latter fact was absolutely false and the
> complaintant was disciplined by the agency for saying this.
>    The school sent a trainer to visit the couple and their case notes 
> state
> that the trainer spent "two or three hours" with the graduate. The
first
> thing I thought when I read this entry was "Did the trainer spend two
or
> three hours with the person?" In any case, the graduate asserts that
the
> trainer spent about ten minutes with her and that most of the time the
> trainer was on the telephone. In any case, the school sent another
trainer
> to "investigate". The traner went door-to-door in the couple's
apartment
> complex questioning neighbors about the allegations of abuse. Finding
no 
> one
> who would coroborate the abuse alleged by only one neighbor who the
wife
> said observed her correct her dog after it became distracted and ran
her
> into a trash can on the sidewalk, the school contacted Animal Services
to
> investigate the claims of abuse and neglect.
>    The Animal Services officer - a sworn law enforcement officer -
> investigated the charges by visiting the couple's home unannounced. He

> told
> me ( and wrote in his official report) that he found the couple's 
> apartment
> clean and orderly, there was a bucket of water on the floor, plenty of
dog
> food, both of the dogs were well-groomed, and the female dog even had
its
> nails painted! The officer concluded that there was no evidence of
abuse 
> or
> neglect and closed the case.
>    The school sent a trainer, nonetheless, to the couple. Since the
couple
> owned their dogs, the school could not take the dogs away from them;
> however, since the school retains ownership of the harnesses, they
took 
> them
> away. In addition, the Animal Services officer who was present when
the
> harnesses were taken told me that the trainer was verbally abusive to
the
> couple who, in his opinion, had done absolutely nothing wrong. In his
own
> words, he said, "I arrest people every day for serious crimes and
would
> never treat one of them the way this couple was treated!" Furthermore,
the
> trainer went to the police department and told officers that the dogs
were
> no longer service animals, that they had no right to use them as guide

> dogs,
> and that they  had no right of access. When I spoke with the police
> department, this was confirmed; however, I was told by the police 
> department
> that they had no intention of interfering with their rights of access,
as
> this would violate both Florida and Fedeeral laws.
>    Fortunately, this couple had ownership of their dogs. The only
recourse
> the school had was to repossess their harnesses, another issue I have
with
> schools' policies and why I have purchased my own harness. If the
school 
> had
> ownership, the dogs could have been taken away from them in spite of
the
> fact that there was no objective evidence of abuse or neglect.
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
> owned the dogs,
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ron Davidson" <fuzzy_1 at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>
>
>>I was told that once a dog is returned it is retired or adopted out
and
>>they do not retrain and match with another student. As far as
ownership I
>>don't see what the big deal is if the school retains ownership for a
year
>>or two years. If they feel you are abusing or not taking care of the
dog I
>>would want them to take it. I have known too many people get the dog
and
>>don't follow the feeding guidelines and feed table scraps etc and it
ruins
>>the dogs digestive system and they will go for food left on floors of
>>restraunts etc. To me all that does is ruin a good working dog and
make 
>>the
>>rest of us look bad. The school I went to kept ownership for two years
and
>>it was no big deal to me but everyone is different. I also was told
that
>>Seeing eye gives ownership upon graduation when you pay a fee of
150.00 
>>and
>>this came from one of their field reps. I don't know what Leader dog
does 
>>I
>>went to Guiding Eyes and was very pleased with them and their
follow-up.
>>If I have a problem I gave them a call and we solved it over the phone
or 
>>a
>>field trainer would come down if serious enough. I know everyone has
their
>>own preference of schools just like me and this is just my opinion.
>>
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