[nagdu] What would you have done? An odd access issue

Margo and Elmo margo.downey at verizon.net
Wed Mar 4 22:06:24 UTC 2009


marion, yes, yes, yes!  Thank you!

margo and Elmo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What would you have done? An odd access issue


Dan,
    I agree with you whole-heartedly! If we allow others to treat us as
second-class citizens, we condone their actions. If African-Americans had
done this in the 50s & 60s, where would we be today? Would we have a black
president? If women were to have said, "We don't really care if we vote or
not!" would we have a female Secretary of State? If we, as blind citizens,
do not stand up for our civil rights and demand to be treated as first-class
citizens, we cannot expect others to treat us as such!

fraternally,
Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What would you have done? An odd access issue


Not really, my friend.
Saying you'll take your business elsewhere is exactly what these guys want.
For them it's not a threat, they'd be glad for us to leave.
Restaurant owners have to serve you whether they like it or not.
Some cab drivers don't want a guide dog in their car.  I could care less,
it's the law, they need to deal with it.  There are things in life I don't
like I have to deal with too and we don't all have to like it.
In other words, the man's an ass hole and he restaurant, as far as I'm
concerned, shouldn't be patronized.  I'm just saying that I don't think
people who give us access problems could give a damn less wheter we take our
business elsewhere, they'd be happy as a matter of fact.

Now, if the word got spread around and he got bad publicity, maybe that's
another question.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that out of 30 restaurants in a given
place, 29 didn't want blind people with guide dogs.  Should we just
patronize the place that's glad to see us or should we push the issue a bit
so they realize they have to respect the law?


Just my take on it and I'm standing in the corner now, just like you ordered
me to do  boo-hoo



Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:09 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What would you have done? An odd access issue

Dan, this post is illogical.
Why would you hope Tami consumed food by someone who didn't want her there?
Now, go stand in the corner!
And for those wondering, Dan and I are friends which means I get to harass
him.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Dan Weiner
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:45 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What would you have done? An odd access issue

Well, first of all, Tommy.
I don't blame you or any one for handling the situation the way you did.
Hind sight is twenty twenty as they say.
You can only do your best given the situation at hand.
So, the following is my take on the situation and not on you--grin.

1.  You say the owner was being courteous.  I don't think so.  If you say he
probably thought you're stupid, than that doesn't bespeak courtesy--smile.
I don't buy the argument about the dog being wet that some of our friends
here mentioned. People get wet in rain and slog through mud and so on and
they're not told to sit in the corner.
I might have sat at the table because I like sitting at booths and I
personally hate sitting at a counter on a stool--grin.   You have no idea
what he was referring to by "near the food".  It could be on the counter
plain or it could be behind glass.
So, in conclusion, I don't have a problem with where you sat and so on, not
that it's any of my business--grin--but I think the guy's a jerk.

2.  Telling him that you'll take your business elsewhere would have made him
very happy--grin.  Our business is not important to them.  They, if they
have a bad attitude, would rather have someone else's business
unfortunately.

I hope, though, that you got your dumplings--smile.

Cordially,

Dan W. and the hounds

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Charlene Ota
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:38 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What would you have done? An odd access issue

Hi, Tami, a couple questions, you said it was raining, was your dog really
wet?  You know how it is with a wet dog, they start shedding, too.  Maybe
the guy didn't want to get his glass in the counter wet and get hair on it
or something.  Somehow, you're probably more aware than that so I doubt that
could have been his issue, but just thought it might be what he was worried
about.  Were you able to keep your dog with you at your table?  I hope I'm
not asking dumb questions, but I guess it wouldn't be the first time!
(smile!)

Charlene

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of sblanjones11
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 2:49 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What would you have done? An odd access issue

Tami,
That's a hard one, b/c it's not exactly black-&-white.
I think I would have tried to understand, especially with a wet dog.  I
would have done the best I could, and used the opportunity to educate.
I think you did OK, and I probably would have done similarly had I been in
your shoes.
Susan & Rhoda


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:15 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] What would you have done? An odd access issue

First, hi to all the new members!  I am loving the energy and the new
observations and experiences.  It's also cool to learn more about the
members I thought I new as they discuss things in a new way.  Now, if only I
could keep up with all of you!  /grin/



Anyway, here is my tale, along with what I did do at the time.  With much
retrospect, I'm still pretty clueless how to view the situation or how best
to handle something like it.



I was downtown with a friend, and we decided to go to a café she told me
about for Russion dumplings.  I had never heard of them before, but I really
wanted to try them.  (Yummy; very filling.)  We found the shop and went in,
where we stopped to shake off the rain and get oriented.  She was using her
cane; I had my dog.  While we were still figuring things out, a voice from
behind the counter asked me to keep my dog right there in the corner,
please.  I pointed out she's a guide dog, he said he knew that, just please
keep her "right there, in corner."  He had a somewhat strong accent, I
suddenly noticed, yet it did seem we were communicating.  He made it clear
he wasn't asking us to leave, he just wanted the dog to sit in the corner.



Naturally, this got my dander up.  I had figured out the layout by now, so I
picked up my harness handle, and we started forward.  This got the owner's
dander up, and he repeated his request somewhat more loudly, apparently on
the theory I was too stupid to understand what he wanted.  I opened my mouth
to argue, and my cell phone rang - my roommate's ring tone.  While I was
talking to him, another customer came in.  I heard the owner ask the guy
plaintively if he could explain it to me, that he didn't want the dog near
the food around the counter.  Phone conversation over, I prepared to push
the issue, but then it occurred to me...  I wasn't actually sure if this was
breaking the law or not.  I definitely believed (and still do) that he was
in the wrong, but if he was within his rights, then who am I to argue?  He
was making it clear he intended to serve us, that he didn't want us to
leave, that he would come to us to take our order since we weren't coming to
the counter, etc.  He was, in his own way, being fairly courteous, even nice
about the whole thing.



Part of me wanted to just march out in a huff at that point, throwing some
obnoxious comment like, "Fine!  If you don't want me to spend my money
here..." loudly over my shoulder on the way.  Part of me wanted those
Russian dumplings, which I could now smell.  Also, it was yicky outside at
the moment, and I wanted to sit down indoors.  What can I say?  I'm a wuss.
/smile/  Besides, leaving felt too much like being deprived of my goal of a
tasty dumpling.



Anyway, we ended up staying, we were served, he went out of his way to be
extra nice while clearly thinking we were both stupid, although he and I did
share our feelings on each of the matter for a less heated round.  I got my
dumplings, my friend and I had a quiet place to talk for a bit, and I had no
idea if I had made the right choice or if I had just taken the coward's way
out.  Very hard on my pride, I tell you what!



So, my question is:  Was this an access issue at all, since he did, after
all, accommodate us?  Or should I have kept on with the attitude and
confrontation until I got my way and exercised my rights?



The next question has more to do with getting thoughts and opinions:  Would
you (or do you think I should have) a) left, making sure the owner
understood you refused to spend money in his store? b) played nice and taken
the opportunity for further discussion of the issue (hey! That makes it
sound like I was just being noble, huh?  Ha!) or c) is there something
better I totally haven't thought of?



Thanks!

Tami Smith-Kinney



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