[nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

Thu Mar 5 19:19:53 UTC 2009

I think because everybody using guide dog services gets treated equally
unless other circumstances are going on. 
Parents already do deal with a lot of beaucracy unless they actively
avoid it. 
Giving birth in a hospital is one gateway, as is using a daycare center.

Everybody who uses daycare center x must adhere to the same rules and
policies and must prove that they've done so usually with a
peditritian's sign-off on health forms. 
School systems also can report a parent if a teacher thinks something is
going on. 
I think this "we're all being treated the same" is one reason everybody
isn't outraged by not having ownership, because they know "If I go to
school y, I won't get ownership". 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 4:38 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

Rebecca,
    The point of the narrative is that we, as consumers, should choose
schools that transfer ownership upon graduation. This incident could
have been from any school, since the school that was involved actually
had transferred ownership and, therefore, could only repossess the
harnesses. 
Since ownership of the harnesses is the policy of all schools, the
lesson is to purchase your own harness and to help us press for
ownership of dog and gear. In this way, we can be free from arbitrary,
paternalistic interference. Again, if we cannot be responsible enough to
care for our dogs, how can we be responsible enough to care for our
children? We would object to any jurisdiction that would take our
children away from us or interfere in the way we raise our children
simply because we are blind. Why, then, do we not object to this sort of
custodialism?

Fraternally,
Marion

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

> Care to share the name of the school?
> If this was any other business, then its name would not and should not
> be shileded.
> Why shield thename of the school?
> I think I know the name of the school, but you weer more involved in
> this process then I ever was.
> If we are indeed consumers, why not share the name of the school so
all
> know and can make their own decisions?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 4:48 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>
> Rebecca,
>    No matter what "the school's side" of the story may be, absent any
> third party objective evidence of abuse or neglect, no school should
> have this much influence over the lives of a graduate. In addition,
> without ownership, these sorts of arbitrary decisions could have an
even
> worse effect. The school could not repossess the dogs because the
> handlers had ownership. At the same time, the school, retaining
> ownership of the harness, did exert their influence by taking the
> harnesses. In my opinion, such influence is custodial and
paternalistic.
> They had no evidence on which to act and didn't need any. It is a
lesson
> to anyone who thinks that a school that does not transfer ownership
> would not act in an arbitrary, heavy-handed manner.
>
> fraternally,
> Marion
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 2:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>
>
>>I think those of us who have been on this list know which school
you're
>> talking about.
>> And, it doesn't matter.
>> What I'd be most interested to see though is the school or any
> school's
>> side of this story.
>> Anybody want to take a stab at it?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:03 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>
>> Dear Ron and All,
>>    The problem with a school retaining ownership is the holding of
> this
>> fact over the heads of the user. In many cases, graduates who do not
>> have ownership are hesitant to ask for help when needed, thus
>> compromising the integrity of the team due to training or behavioral
>> issues. Furthermore, handlers who do not own their dogs have little
>> recourse should the school decide to repossess the dog and the
schools
>> need no justification for this action. Lest anyone think a school
> would
>> not do such a thing, I will share a real example of this occuring.
>>    I advocated for a couple in Florida who were very outspoken and,
>> because of this, made a few adversaries. Several of these adversaries
>> filed complaints against the couple, charging that their dogs were
out
>> of control and were being abused. One of the complaintants was a
guide
>> dog user who worked for the state agency for the blind where each
> member
>> of the couple was engaged in rehabilitation. This person's dog was
>> agressive toward the wife's dog and the dog naturally defended
itself.
>> This state employee contacted the school and asserted that the wife's
>> dog was the agressor and had been aggressive toward other dogs at the
>> rehabilitation center. The complaintant also stated that the wife had
>> been barred from bringing her dog to the rehab center. This latter
> fact
>> was absolutely false and the complaintant was disciplined by the
> agency
>> for saying this.
>>    The school sent a trainer to visit the couple and their case notes
>> state that the trainer spent "two or three hours" with the graduate.
> The
>> first thing I thought when I read this entry was "Did the trainer
> spend
>> two or three hours with the person?" In any case, the graduate
asserts
>> that the trainer spent about ten minutes with her and that most of
the
>> time the trainer was on the telephone. In any case, the school sent
>> another trainer to "investigate". The traner went door-to-door in the
>> couple's apartment complex questioning neighbors about the
allegations
>> of abuse. Finding no one who would coroborate the abuse alleged by
> only
>> one neighbor who the wife said observed her correct her dog after it
>> became distracted and ran her into a trash can on the sidewalk, the
>> school contacted Animal Services to investigate the claims of abuse
> and
>> neglect.
>>    The Animal Services officer - a sworn law enforcement officer -
>> investigated the charges by visiting the couple's home unannounced.
He
>> told me ( and wrote in his official report) that he found the
couple's
>> apartment clean and orderly, there was a bucket of water on the
floor,
>> plenty of dog food, both of the dogs were well-groomed, and the
female
>> dog even had its nails painted! The officer concluded that there was
> no
>> evidence of abuse or neglect and closed the case.
>>    The school sent a trainer, nonetheless, to the couple. Since the
>> couple owned their dogs, the school could not take the dogs away from
>> them; however, since the school retains ownership of the harnesses,
> they
>> took them away. In addition, the Animal Services officer who was
> present
>> when the harnesses were taken told me that the trainer was verbally
>> abusive to the couple who, in his opinion, had done absolutely
nothing
>> wrong. In his own words, he said, "I arrest people every day for
> serious
>> crimes and would never treat one of them the way this couple was
>> treated!" Furthermore, the trainer went to the police department and
>> told officers that the dogs were no longer service animals, that they
>> had no right to use them as guide dogs, and that they  had no right
of
>> access. When I spoke with the police department, this was confirmed;
>> however, I was told by the police department that they had no
> intention
>> of interfering with their rights of access, as this would violate
both
>> Florida and Fedeeral laws.
>>    Fortunately, this couple had ownership of their dogs. The only
>> recourse the school had was to repossess their harnesses, another
> issue
>> I have with schools' policies and why I have purchased my own
harness.
>> If the school had ownership, the dogs could have been taken away from
>> them in spite of the fact that there was no objective evidence of
> abuse
>> or neglect.
>>
>> Fraternally,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>> owned the dogs,
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ron Davidson" <fuzzy_1 at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>
>>
>>>I was told that once a dog is returned it is retired or adopted out
> and
>>
>>>they do not retrain and match with another student. As far as
> ownership
>> I
>>>don't see what the big deal is if the school retains ownership for a
>> year
>>>or two years. If they feel you are abusing or not taking care of the
>> dog I
>>>would want them to take it. I have known too many people get the dog
>> and
>>>don't follow the feeding guidelines and feed table scraps etc and it
>> ruins
>>>the dogs digestive system and they will go for food left on floors of
>>>restraunts etc. To me all that does is ruin a good working dog and
> make
>> the
>>>rest of us look bad. The school I went to kept ownership for two
years
>> and
>>>it was no big deal to me but everyone is different. I also was told
>> that
>>>Seeing eye gives ownership upon graduation when you pay a fee of
> 150.00
>> and
>>>this came from one of their field reps. I don't know what Leader dog
>> does I
>>>went to Guiding Eyes and was very pleased with them and their
>> follow-up.
>>>If I have a problem I gave them a call and we solved it over the
phone
>> or a
>>>field trainer would come down if serious enough. I know everyone has
>> their
>>>own preference of schools just like me and this is just my opinion.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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