[nagdu] vet reports and other issues

Mon May 18 11:50:44 UTC 2009

Mike,
    I completely understand your point of view! Now, if we consider that, 
shortly after this incident the school changed its ownership policy to not 
transfer ownership upon graduation, it makes for some interesting scenarii. 
Perhaps we will see an increase in repossessions now that they have the 
right to do so! Unfortunately the "wait & see" approach does not protect the 
consumer.

Fraternally,
Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports and other issues

Marion

As I said in my original message there are some examples of schools abusing
their authority.  Whether or not ownership was granted the school abused its
authority in the Florida case.  How many such examples of this exist?

For all the demonstrations of distrust of the schools I wonder if such is
deserved. Perhaps it is, but let's substantiate it.  It makes our arguments
stronger.

The Michael Hingson Group
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com

for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 6:51 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports and other issues

Dear All,
    The incident that occured in Florida with a couple who were accused of
abusing their dogs and the allegations were deemed unfounded by law
enforcement is a perfect example. the school, having transferred ownership
to each of them, were unable to repossess the dogs. Instead, they
repossessed the harnesses and went to the police department to advise them
that they no longer considered the dogs service animals and that they had no

right to use the dogs nor rights of access! As an aside, this is like
saying, "We have removed the training from the dog!", something impossible
to do. This demonstrates the lengths to which a school that does not
transfer ownership may go without just cause.

Fraternally,
Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports and other issues

>I heartily agree with Mike here in that I'd like to see instances, painful
> as they may be, in which someone was truly intimidated by his or her
> school.
> I will not disagree that there are certain staff, and even certain
> policies
> at every guide dog school, be they during training in the residence or
> after
> training, that will seem to someone patronizing, custodial or insulting.
> Let's face it, some truly are all of those things.
>
> Couple other points I'd like to make. Laurie's analogy was well meant but
> in
> the case of a guide dog school graduate versus a puppy raiser or breeder
> keeper, it's comparing apples to oranges.
>
> The puppy raiser and breeder keeper are obligated under the terms of their
> volunteer service in caring for, and here's the important part, the sole
> property of the school. If you own your dog as a grad, you are not under
> the
> same obligations. I am sure that those who raise puppies and care for
> breeder dogs from The Seeing Eye have restrictions, reporting
> requirements,
> etc., that grads will never have and if those people do not follow the
> requirements, they will no longer be considered for puppy raising or
> breeder
> keeping.
>
> Marion's analogy about buying a Ford doesn't  quite work either because we
> do not purchase our dogs. Even when we give a small payment, something I
> happen to think has great merit, we are buy no means paying for the costs
> of
> dog, training, room and board or services of a field instructor for home
> training. The dog is being provided to us as a service. I know, I know,
> most
> schools, mine included, state that the dog is a gift. It's a service that
> happens to be free, not unlike state rehabilitation assistance. In some
> state rehab situations, when you are given equipment let's say, you are
> given it outright and expected to maintain it with any needed repairs,
> upgrades or maintenance agreements coming out of your pocket. The
> equipment
> is yours though with which to do whatever you want. Some state rehab
> organizations ask you to assist with some financial contribution to the
> item
> if possible, in which case the above type of agreement is even more
> likely.
>
> Then there are the agreements in which you receive the device but have
> certain obligations from simple reporting, taking part in surveys, etc. to
> returning the device to the agency if not using it.
>
> Here's a debate for you. If an organization was giving away cars and you
> legally owned the car after you took title to it, would they have the
> right
> to ask you for anything related to the car? How far can an organization go
> in requiring things when it provides its services for free or a minimal
> fee?
>
>
> What about comparing a guide dog, a living being, to adopting a child? I
> know, not a good comparison due to the legal implications when dealing
> with
> minors versus animals, but interesting to think about.
>
> This is one reason I like this list. Usually calm, reasonable debate
> <grin>
>
>
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