[nagdu] vet reports and other issues

Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS) REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com
Mon May 18 16:42:56 UTC 2009 

To follow on with this, why aren't schools who misbehave as it were named on this list? Marian has mentioned a school that by his account violated a bunch of laws when they told the police department that the couple couldn't use their dogs. 
Why is this school's name being kept quiet? 
If we are truly informed consumers, why are schools who break laws kept mum on this list? 
To take this a step further, why isn't there something akin to daycare liscensing where I can go and look at every liscensed daycare in the state of VA, look at their violations and then call the inspectors to find out what exactly happened. Why isn't something in place for guide dog schools if we are so distrustful of them?  
How can we as a community and as individuals truly be informed if we do not have the whole story? 
To give this a positive spin, why isn't the school who is not in favor of guide dog appreciation month allowing their name to be stated openly? Sounds like Marian had a productive discussion with this school. Why is the name being kept quiet? I know, I'd feel better going to a school that fed food based on the dogs' needs v. who gave them a discount. 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 3:40 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] vet reports and other issues

Hi all,

I have followed this thread with much interest.  It continues many discussions which have come to this and other lists over the past many years.

There have been many comments and concerns about mistrust of guide dog schools especially when said schools ask for information about the status and health of guides.  I see that many here seem to feel that providing information to the schools will give those agencies an opportunity to intimidate grads or, at least, give the schools something which can be used against grads later.  It is true that some schools continue to be more paternalistic in their treatment of students and grads than others.  Some provide ownership sooner than others while some to not provide ownership at all.  Some schools ask for veterinarian reports and health information and some may not.

All the reporting and ownership stuff discussed here leads me to ask two basic questions.  How many times have schools really intimidated grads?  How many times have schools really abused their blind clients?  OK, a summary question which makes three, (grin).  How often have guide dog schools violated our trust?

I am not in any way siding with guide dog schools.  In fact, I can think of some examples which answer my questions above.  However, I do wonder if the incredible amount of distrust and negative feelings toward the schools is truly deserved.  In continuing the debate on this list I would like to hear about real examples where the schools have abused their powers and how many times we think they abused their powers when in fact the problem wasn't abuse but perception.

I broach the above questions because I see many generalities in the discussions held here, but we are short on specifics which justify the distrust.  So, let's build a record of what is really going on and then use that record to develop realistic views and opinions.  Here's to a lively discussion.


Mike Hingson
Vice President, NAGDU

The Michael Hingson Group
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-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Weiner
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 11:23 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison

Hi, guys.

Dan W. with the happy hounds, Carter and Evan here.
I understand your point Laurie and it's well-taken.
If this info is used in the way it is claimed, then that's fine.
I think my great concern about ownership health reports and follow-up are based on the fact that a n organization can use their ownership of your dog, follow up with your dog, and info from the vet reports as a way to pressure grads or intimidate grads and micro-manage their decisions with their dogs.

I'm met plenty of grads of various schools who retain ownership who are afraid to ask for assistance or tell what happens with their dogs because of concern about what the school will do or say.

Anyway, more on that later, I need to go--smile.

Cordially,

Dan W.  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laurie Mehta
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 2:08 PM
To: the National Association of Guide Dog UsersNAGDU Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison


It is worth assessing whether a given policy actually merits being categorized among "custodial and paternalistic policies". /smile/ 

If an organization breeds animals as part of its business (dogs, for
example) and if that organization wishes to track health data on the animals it has brought into being-- with the intent of making future breeding choices/decisions in as responsible a way as possible (using the health data as a basis for forming  scientifically sound predictions on likely vigor in a particular line for breeding, it is a reasonable view to look upon such data-collection as both reasonable and responsible.  

In a nutshell, the issue of health data collection has nothing to do with blindness; it is an issue of dog-health and dog-genetics. /smile/ 

If a program that provides guide dogs *demands* annual health reports for the dogs they provide, an arguement could be made that such a *demand* would seem unreasonable to some people and that those people would likely choose not to obtain a guide dog from such a program.  
However, even in this extreme example, it is an issue of dog-health and dog-genetics, combined with a dose of zeal.  It is not a blindness issue.  

Consider this:  
In practice, among the organizations that attempt to track health-data in the dog-population that they have brought into being, the health data is requested of puppy raisers (for the time that they have the dogs) and from the families who keep breeder dogs for that organization.  In most cases, these individuals (puppy raisers and breeder keepers) are not blind.  Like the handlers of the successful guides, however, these other individuals are, in fact, asked to provide the same dog-health information (periodic information on the health and behavior of the dog in their possession) to the organization-- for the purpose of helping the breeding department to
plan as responsibly as possible.    

So, puppy raisers, breeder-keepers, and handlers of successful guide dogs, are all asked to provide periodic data on the health of the dog that is in their individual possession.  
This is why I view the issue of tracking dog-health data, even when such information is requested of a blind individual, as *not* falling into the category of "custodial and paternalistic policies". /smile/ 

In fact, if an organization is asking sighted individuals and blind individuals for information that they believe contributes positively to their business, that organization is acting just as any of us would prefer-- they are treating all individuals equally.  /smile/  

-Laurie

--- On Sun, 5/17/09, Marion & Martin <swampfox1833 at verizon.net> wrote:

> From: Marion & Martin <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re:  TSE and Guiding Eyes 
> comparison
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 5:48 AM
> Laurie,
>    I have stated my objection to custodial and paternalistic policies 
> ad nauseum on this list and choose to not enter into the debate again 
> at this time. As stated during these debates, individuals can choose 
> which school they choose to get their dogs from and, if they choose 
> one with regressive, custodial policies, that is their choice. At the 
> same time, there is no choice if there is no information to guide this 
> choice, so this list provides information.
> 
> Fraternally,
> marion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurie Mehta" 
> <lauriemehta at yahoo.com>
> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog UsersNAGDU Mailing List" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 9:55 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> 
> 
> 
> Why should anyone object to sending in periodic reports on your dog's 
> health to the program that you obtained your dog from?  /smile/
> 
> First of all, filling out a report is no serious hardship, but more 
> importantly, if a program is trying to use some data-gathering to 
> track the health of the various lines it breeds, this is a responsible 
> approach to dog-breeding.  By contributing data on your dog, you are 
> helping your program of choice and you are helping future handlers by 
> contributing to the encouragement of certain breeding-lines while 
> other lines are dropped for their tendancy toward producing dogs with 
> such problems as allergies or spinal cord degeneration.
> 
> If one program chooses not to track health data, it is their choice of 
> approach.  However, it does not make it the only good approach.  In 
> fact, if data is actually tracked, many health issues that only are 
> revealed in older age will be tracked as well.  This helps in the 
> breeding choices that end up being made-- avoiding some of those 
> heartbreaking conditions that can actually be avoided.
> 
> Here's an example:
> My first gsd (from GDB) eventually turned out to have a degenerative 
> spinal condition.  I kept the school informed of her health via 
> routine vet forms and via more detailed info as the problem showed up 
> in my then 9 and a half year old dog.  Other handlers did likewise 
> with their dogs.  The end result was that the program was able to 
> identify a few key points in their gsd lines and then they were able 
> to avoid certain breedings.
> Believe me, anyone who has ever had the heartbreak of loving a dog 
> with this degenerative condition will quickly agree that if that 
> condition can be avoided it is only ethical to do so.  No dog should 
> have to suffer that way.
> 
> So, if a program wants to track health data, good for them.  /smile/ 
> -Laurie
> --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Margo and Arrow <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Margo and Arrow <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
> Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 8:00 PM Well, Seeing eye does not 
> > require us to turn in vet reports and they do well at developing 
> > training and breeding.
> > 
> > Margo and Arrow
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "sblanjones11"
> <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
> Guide
> > Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> > 
> > 
> > > I can tell you that GEB's training is also
> > individualized. We all get
> > > introduced to everything, but those who need more
> of
> > any particular type of
> > > training are given that opportunity.
> > > White Plains is where most of the training takes
> > place. It is a mid-sized
> > > city, with a great variety of urban and suburban
> > environments.
> > > SE also has excellent urban graining, and lots
> of
> > traffic checks.
> > > Both are excellent schools, and I don't believe
> an
> > urban traveler could go
> > > wrong at either.
> > >
> > > As far as GEB's ownership policy, ownership can
> be had
> > after two years.
> > > Work & health reports are requested annually,
> and
> > are very important to the
> > > development of breeding & training. Owners
> > as well as non-owners are
> > > requested to complete them.
> > >
> > > HTH.
> > > Susan & Rhoda
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Angie Matney
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 1:34 PM
> > > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association
> of
> > Guide Dog Users'
> > > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes
> comparison
> > >
> > > Hi Tami,
> > >
> > > The training at TSE is similar. I obviously
> can't
> > compare it to GEB, but I
> > > will say that what I liked about TSE was that it
> was
> > very individualized. At
> > > my first school, all students went into the city
> on
> > the same day. At TSE, we
> > > went in groups. I only went to NYC once, but
> other
> > students went more often,
> > > depending on their needs. Maybe Ann or another
> GEB
> > grad could speak to
> > > scheduling at GEB.
> > >
> > > Angie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Ann Chiappetta
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 11:33 AM
> > > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association
> of
> > Guide Dog Users
> > > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes
> comparison
> > >
> > > Hi Tammy;
> > > I'm a recent GEB grad and I believe I've gotten
> great
> > urban training. We
> > > were out five days a week for three weeks in
> downtown
> > White Plains, NY, a
> > > busy city with plenty of obstacles, like rounded
> > sidewalk ramps
> > > buses,,complicated crossings, scaffolding, and
> > people and other dogs.We
> > > trained in NYC only one day but it was great as I
> got
> > train/subway training
> > > and felt the safest I've felt in the subway
> since
> > losing my sight.
> > >
> > > I live in a suburban/urban setting and Verona's
> city
> > skills are spot on. We
> > > don't have much need for country walking so I
> make
> > sure I take her on side
> > > streets just to keep her skills up. But her
> > shorelining skills are good,
> > > too.
> > > Hope that helps.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> > > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National
> Association of
> > Guide Dog Users'"
> > > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:26 AM
> > > Subject: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hey, all. A friend was asking me some
> > questions about guide dog
> > >> schools, and I had no clue to the answers, so
> I
> > thought I would ask.
> > >> She wanted to know how Guiding Eyes and TSE
> > compare when it comes to
> > >> urban training for both dog and handler,
> since
> > both are near NYC.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Has anyone been to both schools? How would
> > you compare the two?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Tami Smith-Kinney
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> 
> 
> 
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