[nagdu] vet reports and other issues

Linda Gwizdak linda.gwizdak at cox.net
Mon May 18 17:10:04 UTC 2009


Hi Mike,
I also am curious about the subject of abuse of the blind by guide dog 
schools and the alleged threats towards graduates about theier dogs' health. 
I would like to hear concrete examples. The only one I have heard was the 
one Marion told us about the Florida couple and Leader Dogs.

I have had guide dogs since 1973 and have gone to four different guide dog 
schools.  Three had contracts. I think I had the most paternalistic 
treatment at GDA.  I like Seeing Eye the best in all aspects - quality of 
training, how I was treated, and the school's staff's professionalism 
towards me.

I did have some problems at GDA and I was refused service by GDB based on 
heresay.  At GDA, there were two brothers who did NOT get along at all.  I 
was friends with one of them and I had no problem with the other brother or 
anyone else in the class.  The brother of they guy I hung out with always 
came around to pester his brother with coming into the room and smoking a 
cigarette.  I am allergic to cigarette smoke and I courteously asked him not 
to smoke around me - I was in the room first.  The brother also did lots of 
other things to irritate his brother and me because I was with the brother. 
The instructor saw what was going on and called us all into his office for a 
chat - done seperately.  I was also called in.  I couldnpt understand why I 
was catching hell when I remained courteous to the offending brother - the 
two brothers did the fighting. The instructor told me in no uncertain terms 
that if the crap continued, all three of us would be sent home without our 
dogs.

I was very upset about this as I had done nothing wrong - I just happened to 
enjoy the company of one of the brothers!  I was made to feel threatened by 
the prospect of being sent home without my dog!  Wwell, the crap ended and 
all three of us graduated with our dogs.

Another thing with GDA was that I was not accepted back into training with 
them for a new dog based on hearsay from some troublemaking blind people 
here in San Diego.  I was actually held accountable for sticking with the 
contract AFTER I retired the dog with a friend. It's like, I was responsible 
for actions taken by the person who adopted my retired dog - actions I had 
absolutely no control or knowledge of! I had given the dog to my friend's 
husband as a pet.  My friend had a GDA dog already.  They moved out of state 
with my retired guide. I later found out that she returned her guide to GDA 
and used my retired guide as her parttime guide using the harness from her 
dog that she failed to send back to the school.  I sent my harness back when 
I retired the dog.

GDA said I violated the contract.  Their Director of Training came down by 
the tip off of another graduate to talk to my friend and me.  It seemed that 
our conversation went well and everything was OK and he repossed the harness 
and left.  When I applied for a dog at GDA about a year later, I was turned 
down for "violation" of their contract and the "fact" that I gave my retired 
dog to the friend to use as a guide - and I gave her a harness to work the 
dog with. Mind you, I had sent my harness back to GDA upon retirement - a 
year earlier - and the harness being used was one she failed to send back 
with her dog.

I was fed up with this behavior by the schools here in California and 
returned to The Seeing Eye where I will stay!  I will NEVER go to a school 
with a contract.  It's like you have to actually kill your retired dog for 
fear of violating the contract! Lets hear some more actual storied about the 
fears people have about their schools.

Regards,

Linda and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:40 PM
Subject: [nagdu] vet reports and other issues


Hi all,

I have followed this thread with much interest.  It continues many
discussions which have come to this and other lists over the past many
years.

There have been many comments and concerns about mistrust of guide dog
schools especially when said schools ask for information about the status
and health of guides.  I see that many here seem to feel that providing
information to the schools will give those agencies an opportunity to
intimidate grads or, at least, give the schools something which can be used
against grads later.  It is true that some schools continue to be more
paternalistic in their treatment of students and grads than others.  Some
provide ownership sooner than others while some to not provide ownership at
all.  Some schools ask for veterinarian reports and health information and
some may not.

All the reporting and ownership stuff discussed here leads me to ask two
basic questions.  How many times have schools really intimidated grads?  How
many times have schools really abused their blind clients?  OK, a summary
question which makes three, (grin).  How often have guide dog schools
violated our trust?

I am not in any way siding with guide dog schools.  In fact, I can think of
some examples which answer my questions above.  However, I do wonder if the
incredible amount of distrust and negative feelings toward the schools is
truly deserved.  In continuing the debate on this list I would like to hear
about real examples where the schools have abused their powers and how many
times we think they abused their powers when in fact the problem wasn't
abuse but perception.

I broach the above questions because I see many generalities in the
discussions held here, but we are short on specifics which justify the
distrust.  So, let's build a record of what is really going on and then use
that record to develop realistic views and opinions.  Here's to a lively
discussion.


Mike Hingson
Vice President, NAGDU

The Michael Hingson Group
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com


for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Dan Weiner
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 11:23 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison

Hi, guys.

Dan W. with the happy hounds, Carter and Evan here.
I understand your point Laurie and it's well-taken.
If this info is used in the way it is claimed, then that's fine.
I think my great concern about ownership health reports and follow-up are
based on the fact that a n organization can use their ownership of your dog,
follow up with your dog, and info from the vet reports as a way to pressure
grads or intimidate grads and micro-manage their decisions with their dogs.

I'm met plenty of grads of various schools who retain ownership who are
afraid to ask for assistance or tell what happens with their dogs because of
concern about what the school will do or say.

Anyway, more on that later, I need to go--smile.

Cordially,

Dan W.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Laurie Mehta
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 2:08 PM
To: the National Association of Guide Dog UsersNAGDU Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison


It is worth assessing whether a given policy actually merits being
categorized among "custodial and paternalistic policies". /smile/

If an organization breeds animals as part of its business (dogs, for
example) and if that organization wishes to track health data on the animals
it has brought into being-- with the intent of making future breeding
choices/decisions in as responsible a way as possible (using the health data
as a basis for forming  scientifically sound predictions on likely vigor in
a particular line for breeding, it is a reasonable view to look upon such
data-collection as both reasonable and responsible.

In a nutshell, the issue of health data collection has nothing to do with
blindness; it is an issue of dog-health and dog-genetics. /smile/

If a program that provides guide dogs *demands* annual health reports for
the dogs they provide, an arguement could be made that such a *demand* would
seem unreasonable to some people and that those people would likely choose
not to obtain a guide dog from such a program.
However, even in this extreme example, it is an issue of dog-health and
dog-genetics, combined with a dose of zeal.  It is not a blindness issue.

Consider this:
In practice, among the organizations that attempt to track health-data in
the dog-population that they have brought into being, the health data is
requested of puppy raisers (for the time that they have the dogs) and from
the families who keep breeder dogs for that organization.  In most cases,
these individuals (puppy raisers and breeder keepers) are not blind.  Like
the handlers of the successful guides, however, these other individuals are,
in fact, asked to provide the same dog-health information (periodic
information on the health and behavior of the dog in their possession) to
the organization-- for the purpose of helping the breeding department to
plan as responsibly as possible.

So, puppy raisers, breeder-keepers, and handlers of successful guide dogs,
are all asked to provide periodic data on the health of the dog that is in
their individual possession.
This is why I view the issue of tracking dog-health data, even when such
information is requested of a blind individual, as *not* falling into the
category of "custodial and paternalistic policies". /smile/

In fact, if an organization is asking sighted individuals and blind
individuals for information that they believe contributes positively to
their business, that organization is acting just as any of us would prefer--
they are treating all individuals equally.  /smile/

-Laurie

--- On Sun, 5/17/09, Marion & Martin <swampfox1833 at verizon.net> wrote:

> From: Marion & Martin <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re:  TSE and Guiding Eyes
> comparison
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 5:48 AM
> Laurie,
> I have stated my objection to custodial and paternalistic policies
> ad nauseum on this list and choose to not enter into the debate again
> at this time. As stated during these debates, individuals can choose
> which school they choose to get their dogs from and, if they choose
> one with regressive, custodial policies, that is their choice. At the
> same time, there is no choice if there is no information to guide this
> choice, so this list provides information.
>
> Fraternally,
> marion
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurie Mehta"
> <lauriemehta at yahoo.com>
> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog UsersNAGDU Mailing List"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 9:55 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
>
>
>
> Why should anyone object to sending in periodic reports on your dog's
> health to the program that you obtained your dog from? /smile/
>
> First of all, filling out a report is no serious hardship, but more
> importantly, if a program is trying to use some data-gathering to
> track the health of the various lines it breeds, this is a responsible
> approach to dog-breeding. By contributing data on your dog, you are
> helping your program of choice and you are helping future handlers by
> contributing to the encouragement of certain breeding-lines while
> other lines are dropped for their tendancy toward producing dogs with
> such problems as allergies or spinal cord degeneration.
>
> If one program chooses not to track health data, it is their choice of
> approach. However, it does not make it the only good approach. In
> fact, if data is actually tracked, many health issues that only are
> revealed in older age will be tracked as well. This helps in the
> breeding choices that end up being made-- avoiding some of those
> heartbreaking conditions that can actually be avoided.
>
> Here's an example:
> My first gsd (from GDB) eventually turned out to have a degenerative
> spinal condition. I kept the school informed of her health via
> routine vet forms and via more detailed info as the problem showed up
> in my then 9 and a half year old dog. Other handlers did likewise
> with their dogs. The end result was that the program was able to
> identify a few key points in their gsd lines and then they were able
> to avoid certain breedings.
> Believe me, anyone who has ever had the heartbreak of loving a dog
> with this degenerative condition will quickly agree that if that
> condition can be avoided it is only ethical to do so. No dog should
> have to suffer that way.
>
> So, if a program wants to track health data, good for them. /smile/
> -Laurie
> --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Margo and Arrow <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Margo and Arrow <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
> Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 8:00 PM Well, Seeing eye does not
> > require us to turn in vet reports and they do well at developing
> > training and breeding.
> >
> > Margo and Arrow
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "sblanjones11"
> <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
> Guide
> > Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> >
> >
> > > I can tell you that GEB's training is also
> > individualized. We all get
> > > introduced to everything, but those who need more
> of
> > any particular type of
> > > training are given that opportunity.
> > > White Plains is where most of the training takes
> > place. It is a mid-sized
> > > city, with a great variety of urban and suburban
> > environments.
> > > SE also has excellent urban graining, and lots
> of
> > traffic checks.
> > > Both are excellent schools, and I don't believe
> an
> > urban traveler could go
> > > wrong at either.
> > >
> > > As far as GEB's ownership policy, ownership can
> be had
> > after two years.
> > > Work & health reports are requested annually,
> and
> > are very important to the
> > > development of breeding & training. Owners
> > as well as non-owners are
> > > requested to complete them.
> > >
> > > HTH.
> > > Susan & Rhoda
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Angie Matney
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 1:34 PM
> > > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association
> of
> > Guide Dog Users'
> > > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes
> comparison
> > >
> > > Hi Tami,
> > >
> > > The training at TSE is similar. I obviously
> can't
> > compare it to GEB, but I
> > > will say that what I liked about TSE was that it
> was
> > very individualized. At
> > > my first school, all students went into the city
> on
> > the same day. At TSE, we
> > > went in groups. I only went to NYC once, but
> other
> > students went more often,
> > > depending on their needs. Maybe Ann or another
> GEB
> > grad could speak to
> > > scheduling at GEB.
> > >
> > > Angie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Ann Chiappetta
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 11:33 AM
> > > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association
> of
> > Guide Dog Users
> > > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes
> comparison
> > >
> > > Hi Tammy;
> > > I'm a recent GEB grad and I believe I've gotten
> great
> > urban training. We
> > > were out five days a week for three weeks in
> downtown
> > White Plains, NY, a
> > > busy city with plenty of obstacles, like rounded
> > sidewalk ramps
> > > buses,,complicated crossings, scaffolding, and
> > people and other dogs.We
> > > trained in NYC only one day but it was great as I
> got
> > train/subway training
> > > and felt the safest I've felt in the subway
> since
> > losing my sight.
> > >
> > > I live in a suburban/urban setting and Verona's
> city
> > skills are spot on. We
> > > don't have much need for country walking so I
> make
> > sure I take her on side
> > > streets just to keep her skills up. But her
> > shorelining skills are good,
> > > too.
> > > Hope that helps.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> > > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National
> Association of
> > Guide Dog Users'"
> > > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:26 AM
> > > Subject: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hey, all. A friend was asking me some
> > questions about guide dog
> > >> schools, and I had no clue to the answers, so
> I
> > thought I would ask.
> > >> She wanted to know how Guiding Eyes and TSE
> > compare when it comes to
> > >> urban training for both dog and handler,
> since
> > both are near NYC.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Has anyone been to both schools? How would
> > you compare the two?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Tami Smith-Kinney
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________
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> > >
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