[nagdu] Poodles, and program dogs always under control

Wed May 27 18:41:57 UTC 2009

Hi Tami.
I don't know that I agree with you about poodles always coming back.  I
grew up with poodles, and two of them escaped on separate occasions.  ONe
ran a few blocks, and the other ended up way across town.  They were both
males, which might make a difference.

I also don't know about program-raised dogs always being under control.  I
strongly suspect that they are treated like pets in the raiser home.  They
are on leash out in public, but, if they're raised on a farm, I think they
run about with the other animals.  This is just a suspicion, of course. 
None of my program-raised dogs has been the least confused by given the
freedom of a big yard, though most have preferred some human company out
there.  But then they're people-oriented dogs to start with.
Tracy

> Well, again, I don't recommend it for everyone, I know it's a bit risky.
> I
> grew up with ranch dogs, so working a dog off leash is just habit and
> natural to me.  My decision to allow Mitzi more freedom than is normally
> considered prudent has a lot to do with her breed instincts, as well.  The
> poodle way seems to be to go out ahead, then come back, or to run around
> in
> a wide circle, then come back.  Sort of like a yo-yo or a paddle ball;
> it's
> like there's an invisible string or rubber band that brings the poodle
> back
> at a set distance.  So even from the beginning, I've been able to allow
> her
> to run in the park in our old neighborhood that was only paritally
> enclosed.
> All of the other neighborhood dogs that came there to play off leash had
> good enough manners that they would stay inside the fence and not go
> bolting
> outside the gate, so she also had good examples around her and learned
> boundaries from them.  She did scare the wits out of me a time or two, but
> there was not a lot of traffic in the area and it was a school zone, so
> that
> somewhat limited the risk.  We will not discuss the time she got away from
> the dog walk and ran home -- across a busy street.  Heart attack city!
> But
> she was fine, even though she was all tangled up in the retractable leash
> she was wearing.  After that, the dog walker only took her to fully
> enclosed
> parks.
>
> Okay, now that I've given some caveat and some of my reasons for deciding
> to
> live dangerously with my sweet precious, I'll talk a little about off
> leash
> obedience.
>
> Basically, the dog obeys certain commands when not on leash and at a
> distance from the handler.  There's a competition level, and the tasks can
> be quite complex.  It often involves hand gestures as well as spoken
> commands.
>
> The most important task is recall!  When you call the dog, it needs to
> come,
> every time.  I used food reinforcement, even downright bribery, to set
> that
> behavior, and I still give food reinforcements at least 99 percent of the
> time, even though she's been reliable in that for quite a while.  I also
> used food reinforcements heavily in the matter of heeling, which was a
> real
> weakness for her.  For negative reinforcement, of course, I simply put her
> back on leash, thus limiting her cherished freedom and cramping her style.
> /smile/  If she's been especially snotty, I will put her in a tight heel
> on
> leash, and she really hates that.  So she's motivated to be good, stay in
> bounds, etc.  "In bounds" is a command I came up with by default, but it
> works.  The clicker comes in really handy for reinforcing that one or any
> commands carried out at a distance.  I also taught her not to bother other
> people and dogs when we meet them (though in our woodland walk, I do my
> best
> to time it so that we're not going to meet a lot of either.  She knows
> "out
> of the way" for when a bike or skater is coming up and she needs to get
> off
> the path.  I actually taught her that one so that she would pay attention
> to
> what was around her on leash and in harness when she was a flighty young
> thing.  "Pay attention" is another of our ad hoc commands.
>
> There's also "leave it," "drop it," and the like to keep her from getting
> into what she shouldn't.  And I keep a bell on her collar to jingle with
> the
> tags, so I know where she is and have some idea of her movements.  I
> expose
> her to new situations on leash, of course, and take care where I do my
> training to limit the risks to her.  If I can hear traffic, I put her back
> on leash and am very strict when we're crossing a road.  If she starts to
> step forward, or if I step forward and realize there's a car coming after
> all, I show fear when backing up to reinforce the idea cars are dangerous.
> Just in case one of those fluke situations puts her in a position to be
> loose near traffic.  I don't know that that will save her, but it improves
> the odds.
>
> I don't' know if that's a very cogent explanation.  You can start training
> off-leash in the house, just as part of obedience practice, and you can
> extend it into the yard if you have one.  If you can find an enclosed dog
> off leash area with a few distractions but not to many dangers (ha!),
> that's
> also a good place to practice.  I've discovered that my quirky curly one
> is
> stronger in her on-leash and in-harness obedience when I've worked with
> her
> at times when she has the freedom to rebel.  I guess that makes it her
> choice, which is okay.  If I'm making her do that, it's an imposition.
> /smile/
>
> Honestly, I wound't even attempt most of that with a program dog, simply
> because that dog would have been raised to be under control at all times.
> Mitzi spent her first 7 months on an acreage with other dogs who all had
> the
> run of the place, so she learned about the great outdoors and the dangers
> from them and from puppy experience, just like the dogs I grew up with.
> She
> also learned good pack etiquette, so I've had a lot of freedom to have her
> around other off-leash dogs because she knows how to play and socialize
> safely.  I do pick the area and make it a point to know the other dogs, of
> course!  And their owners.  And I establish pack dominance with them, so I
> have a moderate contol over their behavior just in case.
>
> But a dog raised to be under control at all times, to be obedience to the
> handler's decisions instead of going out and making its own choices and
> mistakes would not be a good canditate for woodland romping because it
> would
> not know the dangers or how to think for itself in that situation.  So I
> would really  limit the freedom of that type of dog a lot more than I do
> Mitzi's.  It's sort of like the difference between riding a ranch horse at
> a
> wild gallop over rocks and streams and hills and fallen trees vs. trying
> the
> same thing with a more genteely raised stable horse.  The ranch horse has
> been galloping madly about the rough countryside with its herd since it
> was
> born, so you can just have all the exhilaration of staying on the horse
> while it flies fleetly over the terrain.  If you're on a stable raised
> horse
> and it bolts out in the open country, get it under control immediately or
> just get off mid-flight.  The horse is less likely to break a leg without
> you, and you do not want it to take you down with it.  Guide dogs and
> other
> city raised dogs fall under the same principle, I think.  They have the
> yen
> to run wild, run free and chase birds and squirrels...  They just don't
> know
> how to do it safely.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Nicole B. Torcolini
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:09 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> Can you explain exactly what you mean by off leash training and what it
> entitles?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
>
> Linda,
>
> Good point about the different experiences between a pet dog and a guide
> dog.  Because of the physical problems I'm finally on the verge of
> recovering from, I made the decision early to give Mitzi extensive
> off-leash
> time and training, to improve our odds if she does get loose.  Which she
> has
> a couple of times, but I was able to recall her.  It's an unorthodox
> decision, given the value of her training and her importance to me, but I
> felt it was the best choice for us.  Also, I ate lots of Tums during her
> youth.  /smile/
>
> It wouldn't be practical for guide dog schools to do that with their dogs
> as
> a matter of practice, or for the majority of guide dog handlers to
> practice
> it, either.  Now that I'm able to reliable hold onto my girl, believe me I
> do, except for when I mean to be working on off-leash stuff.  I plan to
> add
> hiking and camping into my lifestyle as I get my health back and can have
> a
> lifestyle, so that training will come in handy, I think.  Also, Tums.
> /smile/
>
> I'm sorry about your friend's dog.  I can't imagine, and it can happen so
> easily with just one forgetful moment.  I'm glad you did not lose your dog
> when that happened!
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Linda Gwizdak
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:38 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> What a shame about the guide dog getting hit by a car. did the dog die or
> was he really hurt and Todd had to pay thousands of dollars in vet bills?
>
> There's a woman here who had a guide dog get let out of the house. The dog
> saw the woman's daughter across the street and he ran across the street
> but
> never made it across.  The dog was struck by a car and killed.
>
> Shortly after I came home with a brand new guide dog, my roommate opened
> the
>
> front door to get the mail. She didn't tell me she had the door open and
> out
>
> ran my dog!  She ran up and down the sidewalk and, thank God, didn't cross
> the busy street we lived on. I had to tackle her as she ran by and injured
> my knees - now full of arthritis!
>
> Both of these things happened by carelessness of people in leaving the
> doors
>
> or gates open. Yes, our dogs are highly trained to avoid cars. But,they
> think that the cars are only dangerous when the dog is guiding us in
> harness - they learn to respect cars when they are guiding the instructor.
> The dogs don't generalize and realize that the cars are just as dangerous
> if
>
> the dog is loose and running in the street.  Our dogs are just as
> vulernable
>
> as a pet dog - actually more - because some pet dogs have been hit or
> bumped
>
> by a car and they learned this valuable lesson. Our dogs do not get the
> chance to learn this lesson because they are never off leash outside
> unless
> in a secure fenced in area.
>
> It sounds like Todd was just careless and didn't think about any cats
> scaring the dog and  - boom - the accident.
>
> Lets all remember to think about our surroundings when we decide to
> release
> our dogs.
>
> Regards,
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 5:18 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
>
>> http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=10412802
>> <http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=10412802&nav=menu188_2>
>> &nav=menu188_2
>> Missing guide dog found struck by car
>> Jennie Runevitch/Eyewitness News
>>
>> Indianapolis - A man who lost his very independence this week is
>> now in need of a new companion.
>>
>> Todd Wills is missing his best friend, but his 85-pound black lab
>> was more than a pet.
>>
>> "I just can't imagine not being with him. I'm already feeling
>> lost," Wills said. "It's like I've lost my sight all over again."
>>
>>
>> Bruin was Todd's link to life. The highly-trained, highly
>> expensive guide dog had served as Todd's eyes for three years.
>>
>> "Hopefully other people will understand the difference between a
>> pet and a guide dog. I mean, he's still kind of a pet, but he's a
>> part of me and I'm missing a chunk of me," Wills said.
>>
>> Bruin disappeared early Thursday morning after getting spooked by
>> a cat at his home on Broadway Street.
>>
>> "We were coming in the door and I stopped at the screen door to
>> let him off his harness and leash so he could run in and a cat
>> charged him. I stepped out immediately started calling him
>> and...nothing," Wills said.
>>
>> Late Thursday, Wills got the news he'd feared. A police officer
>> came to his door and said they found Bruin near the corner of
>> 40th and College. The guide dog had been hit by a car.
>>
>> "They matched the collar up and he wasn't in good shape.
>> Apparently, whoever hit him didn't feel it was important enough
>> to stop," Wills said.
>>
>> Todd's companion, his source of independence, was gone, and their
>> important bond was broken.
>>
>> "It just doesn't feel right to walk around without him. I find
>> myself, you know, crying over Bruin all day and then I'm thinking
>> that I need to get another guide dog so I can continue my
>> independence," Wills said.
>>
>> But guide dogs can cost tens of thousands of dollars and require
>> extensive training. While most of the cost is underwritten by
>> donations, Todd says he will still have to pay several thousand
>> dollars out-of-pocket, which is difficult since he's on
>> disability and in school.
>> "That makes it a challenge to put all this together,"  Wills
>> said.
>>
>> For now, Todd is coping with loss and in need of another guide
>> through life.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ginger Bennett Kutsch
>> Morristown, NJ
>>
>>
>>
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>
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