[nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

Fri May 29 17:24:22 UTC 2009

Right but I still want to know how and why the Europeans do off-leash
time and why it seems to be manditory. Why are American and European
standards and codes of conduct so different?  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Garry and Joy Relton
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:52 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

I think it isn't necessarily manners that is a problem. The warning of
not having dogs run off leash has to do with unexpected distractions.
Also, there is an issue of them picking up things and injesting
something that could harm or kill them. I love to play with my dog in
our enclosed back yard and still have to work to ensure that she
remembers that she must come when called. The level of concentration of
a dog guide is simply different in harness than out of harness. Also,
they are dogs.

I do agree with you that dogs need down time and play. Just like two
legged people. (grin)

Joy with Belle

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:44 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

As long as I keep Mitzi trimmed short, she's very easy to clean up.  I
just use a damp wash cloth on her before I put on her work clothes.
/smile/  And I brush her regularaly, although not so much as I should,
especially when she's really short after a cut.  I just have to remember
not to take her to run in the muddy park before I stop by the grocery
store if I don't have a towel and wet ones with me.  /lol/  She always
looks fine to me.

Dogs that run loose, even in small towns, can have drastically short
life spans, although they learn the dangers and the smart ones live as
long as more protected dogs.  Although I have heard of packs of street
dogs hanging about the parks and cafes of European cities, visiting with
the people.

I would think a guide dog would require more structured off-leash time
and would have to have good enough off-leash manners to stay in bounds
and not get itself done in.  As for keeping track of it, you can put a
bell or listen to the jingle on the collar.  I can hear Mitzi from quite
a ways away in a park setting, and I've come to know her particular
jingle even when other dogs have similar tags and jingles.  When I can't
hear her, I call her back, although that can be fodder for teasing when
there are other peole and dogs around.  Every now and then I used to
suddenly notice I didn't hear her jingling and would call out to her in
alarm and get all ancy and OMG!  Where is she?  What's happened to her?
/lol/  Finally someone would say in a voice heavy with suppressed
laughter, "She's beside you.  About three inches from your right hand."
So I would reach out, and she would move around to my other side, and it
would become a game, with the people telling me where she was while she
stayed just out of reach and refused to jingle.  When I asked if she was
grinning, someone would say, "Oh, yeah.  She's messing with you."  /lol/
Mitzi has been very good for my humility.

I'll have to look up those European guide dogs.  I also keep hearing
tales of poodle guides everywhere in France, but I have been unable to
verify the truth of that one, either.  /smile/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:26 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

Tami,
I do tend to agree with you and have seen the same thing. 
Thing is, a suburban dog can't be both an outdoor dog and be clean
enough for people to want it around doing suburban things, going out to
eat, being kept indoors, stuff like that. 
Also, I think outdoor dogs and dogs allowed to run free had shorter
lifespans then a suburban Fido would because more accidents have the
potential to happen. 
Would still love to hear from European guide dog users about off-leash
time.
Seems that it is required if you want a guide dog in Europe to ensure
they have off-leash time. If so, how is this managed at the end-user
level? Are you provided with trustworthy sighted assistance? Are there
more open spaces for a dog to run? 
Is there anybody out there?anybody? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:03 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

Rebecca,

I don't know about Europe, but since I grew up in the uncivilized rural
part
of the west, I get really huffy about all the city rules/laws/customs
that
don't acknowledge that dogs are dogs.  Also the assumption that any dog
not
on leash is going to automatically cause trouble or get itself killed.
When
I point out the "under control" side of most leash laws, people just
seem to
think that means having the dog tied to you by a leash.  Out in the
small
towns, of course, dogs pretty much run around at will, and they're
expected
to have reasonable manners while they're doing it and to not get
themselves
hit by cars.  It happens, of course, but usually because the driver is
speeding or not watching out.  Drivers are expected, informally, at
least,
to watch out for dogs, cats, cows, horses, flocks of sheep, etc., as
they
are for kids.  Or as city drivers are for bikes.

So maybe it's just a cultural difference in how dogs are seen, like the
difference between our American cultural view and the Islamic view, in
which
they are unclean just by being dogs.

Dogs are such social animals, and they have had long years of being
social
with humans, so I think that letting them be dogs in a human society is
fine, as long as the humans aren't weird about it.  If a human can't be
responsible for his/her dog, then blame the human, not the dog.  Of
course,
once the human has ruined the dog, the dog does have to be dealt with.
Sigh.
But where I grew up the social consequences of not knowing how to be
with
your dog are pretty harsh.  /smile/

Of course, more urban environments do require different habits and ways
of
managing any animal, or kid, or bicycle.  On the busy road we walk along
or
cross to get to our favorite playground, it would be madness to not have
a
death grip on the leash, with a few extra wraps around the wrist just to
be
sure...  Sometimes when we're back in less hazardous territory, it takes
me
forever to escape the leash myself.  Letting a dog run through a mall at
will -- especially if there's a food court -- would create havoc,
especially
if everyone did it.  Then again, if the dogs are all conditioned
socially
not to raid the food court and if the people are used to having dogs
walk
around in that context, I suppose it could work...  Dunno.

Well, those are just some thougts.  It's an interesting question.

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:45 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

I find this interesting too. 
I think, and I'd really like input from European folks on this that dogs
are
allowed to run off-leash for the following reasons; 1. There are more
places
for both pet as well as working dogs to run safely, i.e. not as much
traffic
of either human or vehicular nature. 
2. The expectation is that sighted help and sighted help of an
appropriate
nature is always obtainable at the time it is needed. 
Anybody want to talk to this? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:00 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

I find it interesting that guide dogs in other countries are allowed to
run
off leash.  the programs there train a totally reliable recall with a
whistle.

Monty has an amazing recall.  But I really can't claim credit, he came
to me
with it.  I've just practiced it.  He has gotten out three times, I
think. 
I just call him and he comes immediately to me at top speed.

Julie

----- Original Message -----
From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

> Tami,
>
> I agree with you about lots of off leash time for training purposes.
I 
> think, sometimes, especially with assistance dogs that off leash  time
is 
> such a rare treat that when a dog gets loose he is too busy
experiencing 
> all those fun things like sniffing and running free and  doing those
> things is not as rewarding as returning to the handler.
>
> I work on recall from day one with my dogs, and make the recall a very

> high-value exercise.
>
> Also with my border collie, I did some herding and I needed to be able
to 
> call her off of the sheep to return to me; training her to do this
> ensured she has a fantastic recall.
>
> I do think it's important to keep dogs secured etc. but accidents do
> happen, sadly.
>
>
> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>
> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC. "Life breaks 
> us all, but afterwards, many of us are strongest at the broken 
> places." -- Ernest Hemingway  pawpower4me at gmail.com
>
> MSN: Brisomania at Hotmail.com
> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss 
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstr
eam.net
> 

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
40ngc.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40com
cast
.net

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
40ngc.com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40com
cast
.net

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/relton30857%40cox
.net

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
40ngc.com