[nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

[Wayne Merritt]

Sounds like me with my two guides. With my first guide I stuck
strictly with the rules from the school and rarely deviated from them.
With the second though, I've done a few minor things differently than
I did with the first guide, such as putting her on tie down when I'm
in the kitchen, not telling her name and even using an alternative
word for those average people on the street whom we might not ever see
again, and some others. We've even developed some games where she puts
her front paws on my bed or in my lap when I'm sitting, but never her
whole body. I'm quick to correct her when she tries to sneak that on
me, and she knows who's boss. It may be too early to tell since we've
only been together for 9 months on Monday, but I don't think these
minor changes have negatively influenced her work in any way.

Wayne

On 5/30/09, Tamara Smith-Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Heather,
>
> Thanks for the info.  The underlying philosophy you describe is totally
> different from that followed by the American guide dog programs, at least
> from what I've been able to tell.  Your message describes the thought
> process I've sorta used in making decisions about Mitzi's off-duty time and
> training.  I was still dealing with O&M instructors in our early days
> together, and they would give me more lectures about how I have to put my
> dog on tie down all the time and never let her on the furniture at home or
> never do this or never do that.  Guide dogs just don't do those things was
> the main theme.  If I let Mitzi have a hair out of place at home, she would
> create havoc and destruction everywhere she went and it would be the doom of
> guide dog users everywhere!  Of course, I could not possibly have any notion
> at all about how to manage my own dog, since I was born blind yesterday.
> /grin/
>
> I'm starting to get healthy enough to have an actual lifestyle and planned
> to get involved with the guide dog user community more around here.  It will
> be interesting to see how they react to my heretical heathen ways now that
> Mitzi is actually a guide.  /smile/  I think every now and then when I toss
> off some comment about something or other Mitzi did -- good or evil --
> around other guide dogs users, it can cause a certain amount of shock and
> consternation.  Hmm...  I usually just try to explain OC and clicker
> training (instead of using the words positive and negative to describe the
> differences, which seems judgmental) and give examples of how it works for
> us.  Then I give them an opportunity to discuss their way of doing things,
> and we seem to get along okay after that.  Being a newbie handler, I do get
> lots of good advice that way about how to work with my dog in that capacity,
> and I need all the help I can get!  /smile/
>
> I would imagine the differences between the American programs and Canadian
> or European programs is purely cultural and goes way back to when the
> Puritans and their like emigrated to the new world for religious freedom.
> Those early European Americans had a very different overall world view which
> affected how they organized their society as much as it did their worship
> and theology.  Hundreds of years later, I notice that when I talk to
> European tourists or internet buddies, or when I watch BBC America, they're
> awfully casual about things that even I find shocking.  Just a theory of
> mine, really.
>
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Heather Hutchison
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:14 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> Hi,
>
> I got my dog from a school in Canada, but the CEO was a guide dog
> instructor in Europe, so we follow very similar philosophies in terms
> of off leash time. While I wouldn't say that it is mandatory for
> graduates to provide their dogs with this time, it is very strongly
> encouraged that we continue to allow our dogs off-leash playtime.
>
>  From a young puppy my dog got lots of off-leash experience with her
> raiser, going on walks through the woods or visiting dog parks and she
> enjoys similar activities now that she's working. Off-leash recall and
> obedience is stressed as very important and I always continue trying
> to improve and maintain it. While I don't want her running out the
> door, I think she'd be less likely to just keep on running and more
> apt to listen when I call her than dogs who have never experienced the
> freedom of off-leash time. I also believe that it helps with her in
> harness distractions, especially when it comes to dogs, because
> strange dogs are not an unknown or very occasional occurance for her
> (we visit the dog park three or four times a week). It is not fully
> fenced, but is well back from the road and I know her well enough to
> know that she is extremely unlikely to stray far enough away to get
> herself into trouble with cars. She is incredibly well socialized
> around other dogs, and her play behavior is excellent. She is,
> however, a lab that loves to eat, and can pick up stupid things, be a
> brat and not listen (not so much now that she is older) roll in mud
> puddles (I never have plans that involve going anywhere in public
> directly after the dog park) etc. The school realizes the dangers of
> off-leash time, even for a well-trained dog who has grown up with this
> freedom, and we get plenty of practice during class at visiting dog
> parks and learning how to minimize the dangers of having our dogs off-
> leash, and we learn ways of making sure they stay close and continue
> to watch us (like hide-and-seek). But in the end, the small chance
> that something bad may happen is a price to pay for what the school
> feels are more balanced dogs. I notice a difference in my dog's work
> when she's gotten to burn off some energy at the park; she is content
> to do her job and is extra focussed on her work since she has gotten
> all her sillyness out during her off-leash time. It is strongly
> encouraged that we bring a sighted person with us to the park; a
> friend, family member, dog walker etc. While this isn't a perfect
> solution I do understand where they are coming from and I find the dog
> park more fun with a friend anyway.
>
> We seem to allow our dogs more off leash time at home as well. We were
> never provided with a tie-down or any device to keep the dog in one
> place. Their explanation for this was that they believe that they
> should know the dog well enough by the point it goes out as a guide
> and any dogs with poor house manners would be removed from the
> program. Of course we are still expected to keep a close eye on our
> dogs, especially at the beginning of the partnership, but they don't
> feel that tie-downs are necessary.
>
> These are my observations about the differences between schools in
> these countries; while I'm not from Europe I hope this helps. I really
> believe that in our situation, giving my dog off-leash time is really
> what she needs and it works well for us; I definitely do understand
> others reservations about it though and I think it is up to each
> handler to determine what they are comfortable with. I plan to always
> allow my dogs off-leash time as I have seen and strongly believe in
> the benefits to the dog and the team that this time provides.
>
> Heather with Bibby
> On 29-May-09, at 10:24 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS) wrote:
>
>> Right but I still want to know how and why the Europeans do off-leash
>> time and why it seems to be manditory. Why are American and European
>> standards and codes of conduct so different?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Garry and Joy Relton
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:52 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> I think it isn't necessarily manners that is a problem. The warning of
>> not having dogs run off leash has to do with unexpected distractions.
>> Also, there is an issue of them picking up things and injesting
>> something that could harm or kill them. I love to play with my dog in
>> our enclosed back yard and still have to work to ensure that she
>> remembers that she must come when called. The level of concentration
>> of
>> a dog guide is simply different in harness than out of harness. Also,
>> they are dogs.
>>
>> I do agree with you that dogs need down time and play. Just like two
>> legged people. (grin)
>>
>> Joy with Belle
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:44 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>>
>> As long as I keep Mitzi trimmed short, she's very easy to clean up.  I
>> just use a damp wash cloth on her before I put on her work clothes.
>> /smile/  And I brush her regularaly, although not so much as I should,
>> especially when she's really short after a cut.  I just have to
>> remember
>> not to take her to run in the muddy park before I stop by the grocery
>> store if I don't have a towel and wet ones with me.  /lol/  She always
>> looks fine to me.
>>
>> Dogs that run loose, even in small towns, can have drastically short
>> life spans, although they learn the dangers and the smart ones live as
>> long as more protected dogs.  Although I have heard of packs of street
>> dogs hanging about the parks and cafes of European cities, visiting
>> with
>> the people.
>>
>> I would think a guide dog would require more structured off-leash time
>> and would have to have good enough off-leash manners to stay in bounds
>> and not get itself done in.  As for keeping track of it, you can put a
>> bell or listen to the jingle on the collar.  I can hear Mitzi from
>> quite
>> a ways away in a park setting, and I've come to know her particular
>> jingle even when other dogs have similar tags and jingles.  When I
>> can't
>> hear her, I call her back, although that can be fodder for teasing
>> when
>> there are other peole and dogs around.  Every now and then I used to
>> suddenly notice I didn't hear her jingling and would call out to her
>> in
>> alarm and get all ancy and OMG!  Where is she?  What's happened to
>> her?
>> /lol/  Finally someone would say in a voice heavy with suppressed
>> laughter, "She's beside you.  About three inches from your right
>> hand."
>> So I would reach out, and she would move around to my other side,
>> and it
>> would become a game, with the people telling me where she was while
>> she
>> stayed just out of reach and refused to jingle.  When I asked if she
>> was
>> grinning, someone would say, "Oh, yeah.  She's messing with you."  /
>> lol/
>> Mitzi has been very good for my humility.
>>
>> I'll have to look up those European guide dogs.  I also keep hearing
>> tales of poodle guides everywhere in France, but I have been unable to
>> verify the truth of that one, either.  /smile/
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:26 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> Tami,
>> I do tend to agree with you and have seen the same thing.
>> Thing is, a suburban dog can't be both an outdoor dog and be clean
>> enough for people to want it around doing suburban things, going out
>> to
>> eat, being kept indoors, stuff like that.
>> Also, I think outdoor dogs and dogs allowed to run free had shorter
>> lifespans then a suburban Fido would because more accidents have the
>> potential to happen.
>> Would still love to hear from European guide dog users about off-leash
>> time.
>> Seems that it is required if you want a guide dog in Europe to ensure
>> they have off-leash time. If so, how is this managed at the end-user
>> level? Are you provided with trustworthy sighted assistance? Are there
>> more open spaces for a dog to run?
>> Is there anybody out there?anybody?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> Rebecca,
>>
>> I don't know about Europe, but since I grew up in the uncivilized
>> rural
>> part
>> of the west, I get really huffy about all the city rules/laws/customs
>> that
>> don't acknowledge that dogs are dogs.  Also the assumption that any
>> dog
>> not
>> on leash is going to automatically cause trouble or get itself killed.
>> When
>> I point out the "under control" side of most leash laws, people just
>> seem to
>> think that means having the dog tied to you by a leash.  Out in the
>> small
>> towns, of course, dogs pretty much run around at will, and they're
>> expected
>> to have reasonable manners while they're doing it and to not get
>> themselves
>> hit by cars.  It happens, of course, but usually because the driver is
>> speeding or not watching out.  Drivers are expected, informally, at
>> least,
>> to watch out for dogs, cats, cows, horses, flocks of sheep, etc., as
>> they
>> are for kids.  Or as city drivers are for bikes.
>>
>> So maybe it's just a cultural difference in how dogs are seen, like
>> the
>> difference between our American cultural view and the Islamic view, in
>> which
>> they are unclean just by being dogs.
>>
>> Dogs are such social animals, and they have had long years of being
>> social
>> with humans, so I think that letting them be dogs in a human society
>> is
>> fine, as long as the humans aren't weird about it.  If a human can't
>> be
>> responsible for his/her dog, then blame the human, not the dog.  Of
>> course,
>> once the human has ruined the dog, the dog does have to be dealt with.
>> Sigh.
>> But where I grew up the social consequences of not knowing how to be
>> with
>> your dog are pretty harsh.  /smile/
>>
>> Of course, more urban environments do require different habits and
>> ways
>> of
>> managing any animal, or kid, or bicycle.  On the busy road we walk
>> along
>> or
>> cross to get to our favorite playground, it would be madness to not
>> have
>> a
>> death grip on the leash, with a few extra wraps around the wrist
>> just to
>> be
>> sure...  Sometimes when we're back in less hazardous territory, it
>> takes
>> me
>> forever to escape the leash myself.  Letting a dog run through a
>> mall at
>> will -- especially if there's a food court -- would create havoc,
>> especially
>> if everyone did it.  Then again, if the dogs are all conditioned
>> socially
>> not to raid the food court and if the people are used to having dogs
>> walk
>> around in that context, I suppose it could work...  Dunno.
>>
>> Well, those are just some thougts.  It's an interesting question.
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:45 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> I find this interesting too.
>> I think, and I'd really like input from European folks on this that
>> dogs
>> are
>> allowed to run off-leash for the following reasons; 1. There are more
>> places
>> for both pet as well as working dogs to run safely, i.e. not as much
>> traffic
>> of either human or vehicular nature.
>> 2. The expectation is that sighted help and sighted help of an
>> appropriate
>> nature is always obtainable at the time it is needed.
>> Anybody want to talk to this?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:00 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> I find it interesting that guide dogs in other countries are allowed
>> to
>> run
>> off leash.  the programs there train a totally reliable recall with a
>> whistle.
>>
>> Monty has an amazing recall.  But I really can't claim credit, he came
>> to me
>> with it.  I've just practiced it.  He has gotten out three times, I
>> think.
>> I just call him and he comes immediately to me at top speed.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>>
>>> Tami,
>>>
>>> I agree with you about lots of off leash time for training purposes.
>> I
>>> think, sometimes, especially with assistance dogs that off leash
>>> time
>> is
>>> such a rare treat that when a dog gets loose he is too busy
>> experiencing
>>> all those fun things like sniffing and running free and  doing those
>>> things is not as rewarding as returning to the handler.
>>>
>>> I work on recall from day one with my dogs, and make the recall a
>>> very
>>
>>> high-value exercise.
>>>
>>> Also with my border collie, I did some herding and I needed to be
>>> able
>> to
>>> call her off of the sheep to return to me; training her to do this
>>> ensured she has a fantastic recall.
>>>
>>> I do think it's important to keep dogs secured etc. but accidents do
>>> happen, sadly.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC. "Life breaks
>>> us all, but afterwards, many of us are strongest at the broken
>>> places." -- Ernest Hemingway  pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>
>>> MSN: Brisomania at Hotmail.com
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
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>>
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