[nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
Julie J
julielj at windstream.net
Fri Nov 27 13:42:27 UTC 2009
The thing about education is that you can't educate people against their
will.
If people choose to be willfully stupid there isn't a thing you can do. It's
like that whole "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"
thing.
I think there is a time and place for education. I also believe that there
is a time to set the educational opportunities aside and opt for litigation.
JMO
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
Here here Michael. It is all about education. If we educate and inform, try
to eradicate ignorance when and where it presents itself, then we will not
have to fight for having our rights acknowledged I hope to be one of those
educators in our movement toward affirmation, equality, and access..
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Michael Hingson
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 3:21 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
Hi,
Educating is what we are all about. Most of us constantly strive to educate
and inform. The teleseminar we conducted concerning guide dogs in hospitals
is just the most recent example of this.
What is so disappointing is how many members of the law enforcement do not
know the law even though it is usually covered to some extent during their
trainings. Guide dogs have been allowed into public facilities and places
for many years. I find it unconscionable that today so many either do not
know or choose to ignore the law.
Even so, we will continue to educate and inform. We also will fight when
necessary. We also will work to strengthen the law as we can.
The Michael Hingson Group
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com
for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Albert J Rizzi
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 8:15 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
Well then perhaps it is time for us to inform and educate our community on
their civil liberties and open the door of opportunity for the blind rather
then beating a drum presuming discriminatory practices when many of the
members of our community are not verse in the laws presently in place to
ensure equality and access for any and all of us navigating life with a
specific challenge or two. Education for both the sighted and the blind
needs to be the focus in all things if what you say is true. If there are
members of the community who do not know their rights, perhaps we could
mobilize a social paradigm shift that educates all people on accessibility,
technologies and the immense opportunities which come with the manner with
which we see things as blind people.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 9:11 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
Albert,
I know of disabled folks who use service animals that are Yorkies or Pit
Bulls. They are not all that common, but if it works for that individual,
why not?
I don't understand why you think that people who want to commit fraud by
passing their pet as a service animal don't know the laws. There's loads of
disabled people using fully trained service animals that have no clue about
their rights under the law. Likewise there's fraudulent people who know the
law quite well.
How do you tell the "legitimate" service animals from the "fake" ones?
Not all service animals do the same tasks. Even within service animals of
the same variety, guide dogs for example, there is still a lot of variables.
Who trains the individuals who get to make the determination between the
real ones and the fake ones? How do you ensure personal privacy during this
process? How does this work when traveling between states/counties/cities?
How does getting a certification/ID/tag ensure that the dog will behave
appropriately the next week, the next year, or in situations different from
those in the test? Who pays for all of this? How will it not be a burden
to those disabled people who do not attend a residential training program?
I'm not opposed to the idea of verification of service animals in some way,
but I haven't yet come across answers to all the above questions that would
allow me to feel comfortable supporting a certification process.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>I suppose you can make an argument for any and all instances where you
>think
> your rights are being violated. But as I stated, it seems to me that this
> is
> an attempt to control liars and those attempting to mislead. As you said
> federal laws trump codes and such, and you as an informed and educated
> individual verse in the laws, as are the police, or at least we should
> hope,
> I do draw attention to the learning experience at the ice cream parlor we
> all discussed, should hope and rest assured that we may not be denied
> access
> anywhere we travel. Yet, someone who attempts to mislead will not know
> the
> law and should and must be held accountable to not having their pet
> accompany them where our service animals do. How would you suggest
> combating the misleading individuals who try to pass of yorkies and or pit
> bulls as service animals? .
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>
> Albert,
> The problem with the tag might be the challenges it would cause for
> those of us from another jurisdiction who do not have such a tag. If I
> travel to this area with my guide dog and am questioned about such a tag,
> would I be denied access because they are imposing more restrictions upon
> me
>
> than the law allows? The ADA protects me no matter where I travel in the
> U.S. and its territories. If the ADA states there is no documentation
> required for access and a local jurisdiction imposes a restriction upon
> me,
> this jurisdiction is in violation of my rights under Federal law. Even if
> the tag is an option, some public accommodations may see it as a
> requirement; thus the local law/ordinance has the effect of creating
> discrimination against me by confusing the public on this issue.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>
>
>> To tell you the truth I see the tag "option" more as a tool to protect
>> our
>> rights rather then one to be considered a problem. The code was most
>> probably created and enforced due to individuals trying to get over on
>> society in order to bring their pets wherever they please. A service
>> animal
>> in and of itself and their abilities are evident when one sees a service
>> animal in action. If however a tag helps protect us from charlatans and
>> does
>> not complicate a true handlers life or access then what is the big deal?
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York 10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Linda Gwizdak
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:34 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>
>> Hi Ann,
>> I was just as surprized to see in the story that the tags are mandatory -
>> just like the law cited about busting people for fraudulent service
>> animals.
>>
>> The thing about the tags is NEVER enforced. I know many guide dog users
>> who
>>
>> never got around to getting the tags when they started issuing them
>> several
>> years ago. I got one so if by chance Landon got loose and was wearing
>> only
>> his collar, his finder would know right away that he was a service dog -
>> that's the only reason I got it.
>>
>> When I got the tag, the Animal Control folks NEVER said that these tags
>> were
>>
>> mandatory as the officer in the article said. I could very easily find
>> out
>> since I go to their campus to volunteer with the adjoining Humane Society
>> twice a month!
>>
>> I think the article was addressing that there is a definate problem with
>> these "fake" service animals in the San Diego area - and I assume in
>> other
>> locales as well. When Channel 10 did the story, they NEVER approached
>> the
>> San Diego guide dog using residents. All they needed to do is call up
>> the
>> Blind Community Center or the San Diego Center for the Blind to find us.
>>
>> So, yeah, the story was contradictory, I can try to contact the writer of
>> the story and find out more. I've just been quite busy with other
>> pressing
>> things.
>>
>> As to rabbits, I have never encountered one as a service animal and I
>> don't
>> think it would be a problem to me as some of these untrained,
>> unsocialized
>> dogs people bring out and claim they are their service dogs.
>>
>> What I think needs to be done is to bust the offenders who cause
>> problems.
>
>> I
>>
>> have encountered some "emotional support" dogs on the bus who were very
>> well
>>
>> behaved and socialized. the dogs were suited for the work. I even had
>> one
>> that lay under the seat on the bus with Landon and it was Landon who
>> tried
>> to misbehave! (grin!) I told these people that I appreciated that they
>> had
>> nice dogs and I have no problem with these. It is unfortunate that some
>> people spoil it all for the people who are responsible whether it is a
>> pet
>> or a service dog.
>>
>> If people in this country trained their dogs and were responsible owners,
>> I
>> think the bans on dogs would go away. But, you know how it is - people
>> lump
>>
>> everyone into one group when it comes to dogs or other things. I wish
>> that
>> the OFFENDERS would be punished and leave the good folks alone.
>>
>> Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
>>
>> Linda and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ann Edie" <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>
>>
>>> Hi, Linda,
>>>
>>> The logic behind news stories such as this one never ceases to amaze me!
>>> Can someone please explain to me how banning rabbits as service animals
>>> is
>>
>>> going to have any effect on the number of pit bulls, Yorkies, and
>>> Chihuahuas being fraudulently claimed as service animals?
>>>
>>> And, while you say that "service dog" tags are not required by
>>> California
>>> to gain public access with a service animal, the article clearly tells
>>> the
>>
>>> public--and managers of places of public accommodation--the exact
>>> opposite, "Lt. Dan DeSousa of the San Diego County Animal Shelter told
>>> 10News that California requires all service dogs wear a special tag,
>>> which
>>
>>> can be obtained at your local animal shelter by filling out a form."
>>> Who
>>> is John Q. Public going to believe, Linda G. who claims that she has the
>>> right under the ADA to take her "service dog" into any public place on
>>> just her say-so that the dog performs tasks to mitigate her disability,
>>> or
>>
>>> Lt. Dan DeSousa, (who sounds like an *official* law enforcement officer
>>> to
>>
>>> me), and who clearly states that California requires that a dog be
>>> wearing
>>
>>> "service dog" tags which can be obtained at your local animal shelter in
>>> order for the person to be granted public access?
>>>
>>> What good does it do to state on an e-mail list populated by guide dog
>>> users who already presumably know their rights under the ADA, that
>>> "Service dog" tags are not required for public access, while Lt. Dan
>>> DeSousa is quoted in the public media stating the exact opposite?
>>> Perhaps
>>
>>> you should try to interest the TV news organization in airing a debate
>>> on
>>> the subject of public access by persons with disabilities accompanied by
>>> service animals between Lt. Dan DeSousa and yourself or some other
>>> representative of the disability community. And perhaps they should
>>> also
>>> include a user of a service rabbit and a non-disabled person who has
>>> fraudulently obtained a "service dog" tag for his/her pet pit bull in
>>> the
>>> debate as well.
>>>
>>> It is truly an Alice Through the Looking Glass World we live in!
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>> To: "NFBnet NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:23 PM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> Here below is an article from a newsstory aired last night on San
>>>> Diego's
>>
>>>> KGTV Channel 10. It was a good piece and I wanted to share it with
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> The service animal tags issued by SD Animal Control is NOT required to
>>>> have our guide dogs admitted into public places. Some of us have them
>>>> and some don't. Under ADA these tags can't be the determining factor in
>>>> order to admit a service dog - it just lets the public know that the
>>>> dog
>>>> has been registered with the County of San Diego as a service dog.
>>>>
>>>> We experience the problem of these dogs mentioned in the story all the
>>>> time. One of my friends was getting off the bus when a "service dog"
>>>> lunged and growled not only at her guide dog, but at several
>>>> passengers!
>>>> The bus driver did nothing about this. He was probably afraid of being
>>>> sued under ADA.
>>>>
>>>> I personally have encountered these nasty dogs on the bus and in public
>>>> buildings. It sure is scary when all of a sudden you hear this
>>>> menacing
>>>> dog near you!
>>>>
>>>> I hope the new ADA regs will help get rid of this problem.
>>>>
>>>> Linda and Landon
>>>>
>>>> Loopholes Allow Pets to Be Taken Anywhere
>>>> SAN DIEGO -- We all love our pets but some people are willing to break
>>>> the law so they can take their dogs with them everywhere they go.
>>>> 10News
>>>> reporter Rachel Bianco investigated San Diego's canine companion
>>>> controversy and how it threatens the rights of people who are truly
>>>> disabled.
>>>>
>>>> Sady the miniature daschund doesn't look like your typical service dog
>>>> nor -- with her jumping and barking -- does she act like one, but when
>>>> she wore a service dog vest and badge she had no trouble getting into
>>>> North County restaurants.
>>>>
>>>> Tami Michaels has a legitimate disability and a legitimate service dog.
>>>> She said that when Fido is a fake it poses a real problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "A lot of them don't have the right temperament to be out in public,"
>>>> Michaels said. "So, when I go in with my dog to a grocery store or a
>>>> restaurant, often times these kinds of dogs will lunge and growl and
>>>> snap
>>
>>>> at my dog."
>>>>
>>>> But snapping dogs aren't the only problem. "I've seen a lot more
>>>> suspicion from people where they automatically assume you are trying to
>>>> pull something over on them," Michaels added.
>>>>
>>>> Lt. Dan DeSousa of the San Diego County Animal Shelter told 10News that
>>>> California requires all service dogs wear a special tag, which can be
>>>> obtained at your local animal shelter by filling out a form. The only
>>>> problem, DeSousa said, is that there is no way to follow up on the
>>>> answers.
>>>>
>>>> DeSousa said that when someone applies for a service dog tag the only
>>>> question they have to answer is if the animal is trained to perform a
>>>> task for the person. There is no way to verify that what they're saying
>>>> is true.
>>>>
>>>> "Doctors notes and disablities, that's off limits to us," DeSousa said,
>>>> "we can't ask about that, so we have to take people at their word."
>>>>
>>>> So far this year, the county has issued the most service dog tags --
>>>> 43 -- to labradors. Chihuahuas came in second with 37 tags, beating
>>>> golden retrievers which had 25.
>>>>
>>>> Also curiously high on the list: yorkshire terriers, pit bulls, and
>>>> pugs.
>>>>
>>>> "There are people who want this tag just so they can take their dog
>>>> wherever they want to, so they can take it into the stores, restaurants
>>>> and things like that," said DeSousa.
>>>>
>>>> "A lot of people really just don't see anyting wrong with it I guess,"
>>>> Michaels said. "They just really don't understand how much it hurts
>>>> legitimate service dog teams."
>>>>
>>>> Having a fake service animal is a misdemeanor fraud punishable by six
>>>> months in jail or a $1,000 fine but the San Diego Sheriff's Department
>>>> told 10News that it has never been enforced.
>>>>
>>>> Right now it is simply too hard to tell whether the canine is a con.
>>>>
>>>> The U.S. Justice Department is currently looking to tighten the rules
>>>> for
>>
>>>> service animals. The new guidelines under review would exclude
>>>> reptiles,
>>>> amphibians, rodents, farm animals, ferrets and rabbits. A final
>>>> decision
>>>> is expected by the end of the year.
>>>> Copyright 2009 by 10News.com. All rights reserved. This material may
>>>> not
>>>> be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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