[nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
Albert J Rizzi
albert at myblindspot.org
Mon Nov 30 00:49:26 UTC 2009
Wow, a guide pony! I so want to hear more about that for sure. where do you
get one and how are they when not in harness? I would so like to properly
learn about this option for mobility so I might better inform my
constituents on their options. regarding a consumers report of sorts, I
would certainly like to gather anonymous information and maybe pick up where
the imes left off. Regarding the business owner, you are right a guide would
have to have exhibited disruptive behavior before ever being denied entry
for sure. please plea se help me in my quest for more information about
the guide ponty. Peace
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Ann Edie
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:39 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
Hi, Albert,
Not only did I not go back to that school for another dog, but I decided to
avoid the dog issue entirely by choosing a miniature horse for my guide. I
have been working happily and successfully with Panda, my miniature horse
guide, for six and a half years now, and although I still sometimes miss
having a dog in my life, I am very happy that with a miniature horse guide I
won't have to spin the roulette wheel to try to get a new guide with good
health, good house manners, and the correct temperament for guide work,
every few years.
The idea of a "Consumers' Report" on guide dog programs has been around for
quite a while. The problem is how to get true statistics from the guide dog
training programs or even from the consumers who often exhibit "brand
loyalty" to the programs they have used. You can collect anecdotal reports,
but getting hard facts is much more difficult. Remember, the programs are
dependent on charitable donations from the public, and they need good
statistics on the efficiency and effectiveness of their programs in order to
keep their generous large donors. And these programs are not operating
under any governmental regulations, so no one is guarding the chicken coop,
as it were.
Back in the 1990's, Ed and Toni Eames wrote the book, "A Guide to Guide Dog
Schools", which was an effort to make consumers more aware of the
differences and features of the various programs, but again, the information
was mostly provided by the schools themselves, so it was not really a
"Consumers' Report" equivalent. The website GDUI.org maintains a survey of
guide dog programs which likewise provides a centralized location for
comparitive information about the guide dog training programs, but again,
the information comes from the training programs and is voluntarily given.
Another problem with trying to compare or evaluate the various training
programs is the difficulty of defining terms and assigning accountability in
a system which involves living creatures, both human and canine. It is
equivalent to measuring the relative merits of public schools or school
districts. And in the guide dog industry, there are no real standardized
tests for either guide dogs or for guide teams in the field which are
administered across programs. So, good luck to you in any comparitive or
evaluative effort you may make in this direction.
(Oh, yes, one more little detail--
Note that in my description of my own experience with the two unsuccessful
guide dogs, I did not identify the guide dog training program from which I
received the two dogs. I think you will find that many people are reluctant
to give this kind of information unless their identity is protected, because
they are often accused of liable or "bad-mouthing" perfectly good programs
because of one, supposedly extremely rare, less-than-satisfactory experience
with a particular program, which was probably their own fault anyway.)
Your statement: "for the tone and intent of this dialogue concerning
entrance to an establishment, I would have to say that a business owner
would have just cause to deny you and those animals you spoke of access to
his or her establishment," is true, to a point. However, the business
operator could not have denied *me* access, but only have insisted that, if
the dog behaved in a manner which posed a health or safety risk to others in
the establishment or which substantially altered the nature of the services
provided there once we had entered, and if I failed to make efforts to
control the animal's behavior, that the dog be removed, and I could access
the business without the offending animal. This is what the ADA regulations
say. In my opinion, if more business owners and police officers were aware
of this part of the ADA, many of the issues with ill-behaved and unsafe
"service dogs"--legitimate or fraudulant--in public places would be
eliminated, without resorting to the thorny and probably unworkable solution
of "certification" of service animals.
Thanks for the thoughtful and stimulating discussion of these matters.
Best,
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
> Well I hope you did not go back to that school ever again. I think there
> might be room for including a sort of consumers report for the top rated
> schools and their success on my site. I understand animals are animals,
> but
> I would hope yours is an isolated incident and not a regular occurrence.
> But
> for the tone and intent of this dialogue concerning entrance to an
> establishment, I would have to say that a business owner would have just
> cause to deny you and those animals you spoke of access to his or her
> establishment.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York 10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 5:25 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>
> Hi, Toni, Albert, and Everyone,
>
> Unfortunately, Albert, not only do some guide and service dogs become
> unruly
>
> after going home with their owners due to inattention or laxity on the
> part
> of the handlers, but there are also some guide and service dogs which make
> it through training and are placed with handlers whose unsoundness becomes
> apparent after placement despite the sincere and sometimes monumental
> efforts of the handler to help the animal succeed.
>
> I know this because I had two of these dogs. The first one was a dog
> whose
> trainers had serious reservations about her chances for success, but the
> trainers' reservations were overruled by the school administrators who
> were
> eager to keep their "successful placements" stitistics up. From the
> beginning, the dog demonstrated a lot of stress behaviors, like chewing on
> her legs and feet, refusing to eat, having relieving issues, and losing
> much
>
> of her coat. She also would go totally crazy, barking and growling, and
> chase anything that moved, like squirrels, cats, or children, or anything
> that even appeared to move, like light sparkles or lights from a computer
> game. I worked with this dog for 3 months until one day she tried to bolt
> off after a couple of children who were playing a hand-held computer game
> with flashing lights. Then I sent her back to the school that "trained"
> her, and found out later that her trainers had advised against placing
> this
> dog.
>
> I got a second dog from the same program, thinking that they would be
> doubly
>
> careful the second time to make sure the dog they gave me was sound. But
> the second dog showed clear signs of aggression toward other animals early
> in the team-training period. I expressed my doubts about this dog's
> behavior at the time of my instruction, but the instructors still "passed"
> us as a team and left after the nominal training period without any
> apparent
>
> concern. Since I was an experienced dog handler, I used all the tools I
> had
>
> to try to make this placement a success. Especially coming on the heels
> of
> the failure of the previous dog, I was determined to have this dog succeed
> long-term. But things went from bad to worse, to the point that I was
> afraid to go out for a simple walk using this dog as a guide. I never
> knew
> when the dog would bolt off after a dog in a passing car on the street, or
> after a cat sitting quietly on a porch as we passed, or after another
> guide
> dog at a state NFB convention. The dog bolted right out of my hands
> several
>
> times, which was dangerous for the dog, the object of his aggression, and
> for drivers of passing cars who might swerve to try to avoid the dog and
> end
>
> up involved in a crash. The dog also pulled me off my feet more than
> once,
> and would have dragged me into traffic if I had managed to hang on to his
> leash. After almost a year of hard work and frequent consultation with
> the
> training program, I had to admit defeat and return this dog to the
> program.
>
> Both of the dogs that I returned were re-evaluated and found to be
> unsuitable to continue as guide dogs, although they were both young enough
> to have been reissued if they had been found to be sound and judged to
> have
> been "mismatched" with me. So, yes, trained guide and service dogs can,
> and
>
> do, misbehave, sometimes in spectacular manner, and it is not always the
> fault of a sloppy or oblivious dog handler. I think, if you talk to
> enough
> handlers of guide and service dogs, or if you monitor these guide dog
> users'
>
> lists for a period of time, you will hear quite a few experiences of
> people
> who have been matched with dogs from "reputable" training programs which
> have proven to be unfit for public access work because of behavioral
> issues,
>
> despite conscientious efforts by the handlers to maintain training and
> correct problems.
>
> Just as there are many myths about blindness and blind people, there are
> also myths about guide dogs and guide dog training programs. If you
> believe
>
> that no respected and long-established training program can put out a dog
> which later proves to have behavioral soundness issues, despite the
> sincere
> efforts of the handler to follow the instructions of the trainers and to
> maintain high standards and expectations, then perhaps you are falling
> prey
> to one or more such myth. The myth of the super-intelligent and
> unfailingly
>
> noble guide dog and the myth of the mysterious and magical process of
> breeding and training these amazing guide dogs are both myths which are
> promulgated by the guide dog schools as a means of encouraging donations
> from the general public on behalf of blind people, and the myths are
> certainly widely held in society in general, by sighted people as well as
> by
>
> blind people. So it would not be unusual that any of us might assume that
> such beliefs are accurate reflections of reality. But, with more
> experience, you may find that reality does not match the image projected,
> and that, while many trained guide and service dogs do perform their jobs
> competently and happily for their entire lifetimes, they are still living,
> behaving animals, whose behavior varies, and who sometimes fail to prove
> up
> to the challenges of the work. You may also find that, while training
> programs are sincere and dedicated to producing sound working dogs, that
> they are staffed by human beings, with all the normal range of abilities,
> emotions, political considerations, financial constraints, and whatever,
> and
>
> that they are not any more infalible than the rest of us human beings, and
> they do sometimes suffer from "kennel blindness" and put out a dog which
> should not have been placed.
>
> So, don't be surprised if you hear of, or even encounter, a legitimate
> guide
>
> or service dog which is not behaving in the way you might expect in
> public.
> And if you do encounter such an animal, don't immediately assume that the
> dog's failings are entirely the fault of the handler. As usual, life is
> more complicated than that.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toni Whaley" <blind_treasurer at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 4:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>
>
>> Albert,
>>
>> Unfortunately, some guide dogs become unruly after they go home with
>> their
>> owners. The owners stop enforcing the behaviors the they were taught.
>> Consequently, their dogs become unruly. What's worse is that the owner
>> doesn't recognize that their dog is misbehaving.
>>
>> Toni
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Albert J Rizzi
>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 9:33 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>
>> In those instances not just a guide dog could be asked to leave the
>> premises
>> in most instances so might people who are acting disruptive and unrulely.
>> Legally, no business owner may deny access without just cause as properly
>> outlined in your email, unless and until a guide should present a
>> problem.
>
>> I
>> have never heard that such an animal exists if it had I do not see how it
>> could have ever made it through training and into the hands of a
>> handler.
>> I am sure that canines who are companions for those of us with anxiety
>> or
>> other issues where such a service dog would be necessary would also not
>> make
>> it thru training and into the hands of an end user. I stand by my
>> position
>> that education is the key. The lessons learned that day at the ice cream
>> parlor, although reluctantly and arguably in a pigheaded and ignorant
>> manner
>> on the part of those taught by the person herein, was concluded in a
>> manner
>> which undoubtedly dispelled and eradicated ignorance even though it took
>> legal support, patience and an inordinate amount of time. Now that the
>> ignorance has been eradicated and should the refusal and barring of entry
>> to
>> any service animal continue, then stupidity rules and litigation not
>> mitigation ensues. I applaud the efforts of Marty that day and wish more
>> people were as informed as he was. That is my point precisely. An
>> educated
>> and informed consumer is our best customer and advocate.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York 10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Steve Johnson
>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 6:31 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>
>> Albert,
>>
>> There is actually a right answer here, and that is that we as service
>> animal
>>
>> users have an obligation to uphold our responsibility under these access
>> laws as previously stated, as outlined in the ADA. The best example is
>> taken from the ADA Business Briefs on Service Animals which was nicely
>> stated by Marion a few correspondences back:
>>
>> 10. Q. What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or
>> otherwise acts out of control?
>>
>> A. You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your
>> facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health
>> or
>> safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious
>> behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not
>> make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to
>> behave
>>
>> based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be
>> considered individually.
>>
>> Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is
>> out
>> of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the
>> service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services
>> without having the service animal on the premises.
>>
>> 11. Q. Can I exclude an animal that doesn't really seem dangerous but is
>> disruptive to my business?
>>
>> A. There may be a few circumstances when a public accommodation is not
>> required to accommodate a service animals - that is, when doing so would
>> result in a fundamental alteration to the nature of the business.
>> Generally, this is not likely to occur in restaurants, hotels, retail
>> stores, theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities. But when it
>> does,
>> for example, when a dog barks during a movie, the animal can be excluded.
>>
>> Along with these rights come responsibilities and as long as we
>> understand
>> what we need to do from our end, the next steps can be taken. For
>> instance,
>>
>> the situation that Marion worked with Mary on as it was demonstrated that
>> she was upholding her responsibilities under the law.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 4:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>
>>
>>>I am not sure if there is a right or wrong here when I read what you are
>>> writing. It is illegal for any business to deny access to legitimate
>>> service animals. Whether one is a lawyer or not, this is the law plain
>>> and
>>> simple. Those not needing a service animal and passing a pet of as one
>>> are
>>> in violation of the law and need to be taken to the mat for that
>>> instance.
>>
>>> I
>>> still feel we as a community are letting others down when we do not
>>> educate
>>> the blind on the laws in place, and do not teach in a manner which
>>> maximizes
>>> the technological advancements made in recent decades, heck forget
>>> technology, why is it there is such a low percentage of us who read
>>> Braille?
>>> I learned braille as a sighted person because it was an elective in
>>> college.
>>> We need to take more ardent steps to educate all our blind members,
>>> students
>>> born into blindness or those of us delivered into it for causes either
>>> medical or traumatic. What good is exercising the law when those it is
>>> designed to protect and lift up know nothing of them.
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>>
>>> Albert,
>>> I know that there are those who will attempt to take advantage of the
>>> laws designed to protect our civil rights to gain privileges to which
>>> they
>>> are not privvy. Such individuals are a spur in my side (and other
>>> areas!)!
>>
>>> I
>>>
>>> am contacted on a regular basis by businesses asking for my opinion. I
>>> generally advise them that, first of all, I am not an attorney, so the
>>> advice I give is only my opinion. It is my opinion, though, that the
>>> Americans with Disabilities Act and the Department of Justice makes it
>>> clear
>>>
>>> that service animal handlers are required to maintain control over
>>> their
>>> animals at all times and to immediately take measures to retain control
>>> if
>>> the animal gets out of control. Failure to do so is grounds for an
>>> entity
>>> to
>>>
>>> deny the disabled person the right to be accompanied by the animal, but
>>> must
>>>
>>> allow the individual access without the presence of the animal.
>>> This being said, if a person gains access with their pet that is not
>>> a
>>> service animal and the animal is not under control, the entity has the
>>> right
>>>
>>> to deny such access. If, on the other hand, a person gains access with
>>> their
>>>
>>> pet and the animal causes no problems, what harm has been done? If you
>>> were
>>> the owner of a public accommodation, would it not be better to allow
>>> access
>>> to a questionable "service animal" that is well behaved and causes no
>>> problems than to risk the individual filing a criminal or civil
>>> complaint
>>> against you? As the adage says, "It is better to err on the side of
>>> prudence!" JMHO!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:35 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>>
>>>
>>>>I suppose you can make an argument for any and all instances where you
>>>>think
>>>> your rights are being violated. But as I stated, it seems to me that
>>>> this
>>>> is
>>>> an attempt to control liars and those attempting to mislead. As you
>>>> said
>>>> federal laws trump codes and such, and you as an informed and educated
>>>> individual verse in the laws, as are the police, or at least we should
>>>> hope,
>>>> I do draw attention to the learning experience at the ice cream parlor
>>>> we
>>>> all discussed, should hope and rest assured that we may not be denied
>>>> access
>>>> anywhere we travel. Yet, someone who attempts to mislead will not know
>>>> the
>>>> law and should and must be held accountable to not having their pet
>>>> accompany them where our service animals do. How would you suggest
>>>> combating the misleading individuals who try to pass of yorkies and or
>>>> pit
>>>> bulls as service animals? .
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 7:33 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>> The problem with the tag might be the challenges it would cause for
>>>> those of us from another jurisdiction who do not have such a tag. If I
>>>> travel to this area with my guide dog and am questioned about such a
>>>> tag,
>>>> would I be denied access because they are imposing more restrictions
>>>> upon
>>>> me
>>>>
>>>> than the law allows? The ADA protects me no matter where I travel in
>>>> the
>>>> U.S. and its territories. If the ADA states there is no documentation
>>>> required for access and a local jurisdiction imposes a restriction upon
>>>> me,
>>>> this jurisdiction is in violation of my rights under Federal law. Even
>>>> if
>>>> the tag is an option, some public accommodations may see it as a
>>>> requirement; thus the local law/ordinance has the effect of creating
>>>> discrimination against me by confusing the public on this issue.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:58 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> To tell you the truth I see the tag "option" more as a tool to protect
>>>>> our
>>>>> rights rather then one to be considered a problem. The code was most
>>>>> probably created and enforced due to individuals trying to get over on
>>>>> society in order to bring their pets wherever they please. A service
>>>>> animal
>>>>> in and of itself and their abilities are evident when one sees a
>>>>> service
>>>>> animal in action. If however a tag helps protect us from charlatans
>>>>> and
>>>>> does
>>>>> not complicate a true handlers life or access then what is the big
>>>>> deal?
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>> who
>>>>> is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Linda Gwizdak
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 12:34 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ann,
>>>>> I was just as surprized to see in the story that the tags are
>>>>> mandatory -
>>>>> just like the law cited about busting people for fraudulent service
>>>>> animals.
>>>>>
>>>>> The thing about the tags is NEVER enforced. I know many guide dog
>>>>> users
>>>>> who
>>>>>
>>>>> never got around to getting the tags when they started issuing them
>>>>> several
>>>>> years ago. I got one so if by chance Landon got loose and was wearing
>>>>> only
>>>>> his collar, his finder would know right away that he was a service
>>>>> dog -
>>>>> that's the only reason I got it.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I got the tag, the Animal Control folks NEVER said that these
>>>>> tags
>>>>> were
>>>>>
>>>>> mandatory as the officer in the article said. I could very easily
>>>>> find
>>>>> out
>>>>> since I go to their campus to volunteer with the adjoining Humane
>>>>> Society
>>>>> twice a month!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the article was addressing that there is a definate problem
>>>>> with
>>>>> these "fake" service animals in the San Diego area - and I assume in
>>>>> other
>>>>> locales as well. When Channel 10 did the story, they NEVER approached
>>>>> the
>>>>> San Diego guide dog using residents. All they needed to do is call up
>>>>> the
>>>>> Blind Community Center or the San Diego Center for the Blind to find
>>>>> us.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, yeah, the story was contradictory, I can try to contact the writer
>>>>> of
>>>>> the story and find out more. I've just been quite busy with other
>>>>> pressing
>>>>> things.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to rabbits, I have never encountered one as a service animal and I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> think it would be a problem to me as some of these untrained,
>>>>> unsocialized
>>>>> dogs people bring out and claim they are their service dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I think needs to be done is to bust the offenders who cause
>>>>> problems.
>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>> have encountered some "emotional support" dogs on the bus who were
>>>>> very
>>>>> well
>>>>>
>>>>> behaved and socialized. the dogs were suited for the work. I even had
>>>>> one
>>>>> that lay under the seat on the bus with Landon and it was Landon who
>>>>> tried
>>>>> to misbehave! (grin!) I told these people that I appreciated that
>>>>> they
>>>>> had
>>>>> nice dogs and I have no problem with these. It is unfortunate that
>>>>> some
>>>>> people spoil it all for the people who are responsible whether it is a
>>>>> pet
>>>>> or a service dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> If people in this country trained their dogs and were responsible
>>>>> owners,
>>>>> I
>>>>> think the bans on dogs would go away. But, you know how it is -
>>>>> people
>>>>> lump
>>>>>
>>>>> everyone into one group when it comes to dogs or other things. I wish
>>>>> that
>>>>> the OFFENDERS would be punished and leave the good folks alone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
>>>>>
>>>>> Linda and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Ann Edie" <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:16 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, Linda,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The logic behind news stories such as this one never ceases to amaze
>>>>>> me!
>>>>>> Can someone please explain to me how banning rabbits as service
>>>>>> animals
>>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> going to have any effect on the number of pit bulls, Yorkies, and
>>>>>> Chihuahuas being fraudulently claimed as service animals?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, while you say that "service dog" tags are not required by
>>>>>> California
>>>>>> to gain public access with a service animal, the article clearly
>>>>>> tells
>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> public--and managers of places of public accommodation--the exact
>>>>>> opposite, "Lt. Dan DeSousa of the San Diego County Animal Shelter
>>>>>> told
>>>>>> 10News that California requires all service dogs wear a special tag,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>
>>>>>> can be obtained at your local animal shelter by filling out a form."
>>>>>> Who
>>>>>> is John Q. Public going to believe, Linda G. who claims that she has
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> right under the ADA to take her "service dog" into any public place
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> just her say-so that the dog performs tasks to mitigate her
>>>>>> disability,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lt. Dan DeSousa, (who sounds like an *official* law enforcement
>>>>>> officer
>>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> me), and who clearly states that California requires that a dog be
>>>>>> wearing
>>>>>
>>>>>> "service dog" tags which can be obtained at your local animal shelter
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> order for the person to be granted public access?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What good does it do to state on an e-mail list populated by guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> users who already presumably know their rights under the ADA, that
>>>>>> "Service dog" tags are not required for public access, while Lt. Dan
>>>>>> DeSousa is quoted in the public media stating the exact opposite?
>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>
>>>>>> you should try to interest the TV news organization in airing a
>>>>>> debate
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the subject of public access by persons with disabilities accompanied
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> service animals between Lt. Dan DeSousa and yourself or some other
>>>>>> representative of the disability community. And perhaps they should
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> include a user of a service rabbit and a non-disabled person who has
>>>>>> fraudulently obtained a "service dog" tag for his/her pet pit bull in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> debate as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is truly an Alice Through the Looking Glass World we live in!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Ann
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFBnet NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:23 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fake service dogs news story
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>> Here below is an article from a newsstory aired last night on San
>>>>>>> Diego's
>>>>>
>>>>>>> KGTV Channel 10. It was a good piece and I wanted to share it with
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The service animal tags issued by SD Animal Control is NOT required
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> have our guide dogs admitted into public places. Some of us have
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> and some don't. Under ADA these tags can't be the determining factor
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> order to admit a service dog - it just lets the public know that the
>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> has been registered with the County of San Diego as a service dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We experience the problem of these dogs mentioned in the story all
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> time. One of my friends was getting off the bus when a "service dog"
>>>>>>> lunged and growled not only at her guide dog, but at several
>>>>>>> passengers!
>>>>>>> The bus driver did nothing about this. He was probably afraid of
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> sued under ADA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I personally have encountered these nasty dogs on the bus and in
>>>>>>> public
>>>>>>> buildings. It sure is scary when all of a sudden you hear this
>>>>>>> menacing
>>>>>>> dog near you!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope the new ADA regs will help get rid of this problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linda and Landon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Loopholes Allow Pets to Be Taken Anywhere
>>>>>>> SAN DIEGO -- We all love our pets but some people are willing to
>>>>>>> break
>>>>>>> the law so they can take their dogs with them everywhere they go.
>>>>>>> 10News
>>>>>>> reporter Rachel Bianco investigated San Diego's canine companion
>>>>>>> controversy and how it threatens the rights of people who are truly
>>>>>>> disabled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sady the miniature daschund doesn't look like your typical service
>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> nor -- with her jumping and barking -- does she act like one, but
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> she wore a service dog vest and badge she had no trouble getting
>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>> North County restaurants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tami Michaels has a legitimate disability and a legitimate service
>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>> She said that when Fido is a fake it poses a real problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "A lot of them don't have the right temperament to be out in
>>>>>>> public,"
>>>>>>> Michaels said. "So, when I go in with my dog to a grocery store or a
>>>>>>> restaurant, often times these kinds of dogs will lunge and growl and
>>>>>>> snap
>>>>>
>>>>>>> at my dog."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But snapping dogs aren't the only problem. "I've seen a lot more
>>>>>>> suspicion from people where they automatically assume you are trying
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> pull something over on them," Michaels added.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lt. Dan DeSousa of the San Diego County Animal Shelter told 10News
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> California requires all service dogs wear a special tag, which can
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> obtained at your local animal shelter by filling out a form. The
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> problem, DeSousa said, is that there is no way to follow up on the
>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DeSousa said that when someone applies for a service dog tag the
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> question they have to answer is if the animal is trained to perform
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> task for the person. There is no way to verify that what they're
>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>> is true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Doctors notes and disablities, that's off limits to us," DeSousa
>>>>>>> said,
>>>>>>> "we can't ask about that, so we have to take people at their word."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So far this year, the county has issued the most service dog tags --
>>>>>>> 43 -- to labradors. Chihuahuas came in second with 37 tags, beating
>>>>>>> golden retrievers which had 25.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also curiously high on the list: yorkshire terriers, pit bulls, and
>>>>>>> pugs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "There are people who want this tag just so they can take their dog
>>>>>>> wherever they want to, so they can take it into the stores,
>>>>>>> restaurants
>>>>>>> and things like that," said DeSousa.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "A lot of people really just don't see anyting wrong with it I
>>>>>>> guess,"
>>>>>>> Michaels said. "They just really don't understand how much it hurts
>>>>>>> legitimate service dog teams."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having a fake service animal is a misdemeanor fraud punishable by
>>>>>>> six
>>>>>>> months in jail or a $1,000 fine but the San Diego Sheriff's
>>>>>>> Department
>>>>>>> told 10News that it has never been enforced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now it is simply too hard to tell whether the canine is a con.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The U.S. Justice Department is currently looking to tighten the
>>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>>> service animals. The new guidelines under review would exclude
>>>>>>> reptiles,
>>>>>>> amphibians, rodents, farm animals, ferrets and rabbits. A final
>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>> is expected by the end of the year.
>>>>>>> Copyright 2009 by 10News.com. All rights reserved. This material may
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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