[nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Wed Sep 2 18:08:35 UTC 2009

Hi Marion,
What I have experienced in using my cane and heeling my unharnessed guide 
dog was that we were never treated any different from if I were in the same 
place without my cane and with a harnessed dog!

I think the public sees a person with a white cane - "Oh, blind".  they also 
see the dog - "Oh, guide dog". I have been in some stores with a cane and 
unharnessed dog when my groomer was close by here and I wanted to just leave 
the harness home.  It's either the public just sees cane and dog and assumes 
it is a guide dog and/or they know us personally so therefore knows that my 
dog is my guide.

What people DO notice is if the dog behaves well or not and they react to 
that.

The other night, around 9:30pm, I was on a bus coming home.  Landon was 
under my seat.  A couple of people boarded the bus with three carriers with 
a Chihuahua in each one.  They also had a Miniature Poodle mix and another 
Chihuahua on leashes.  The Poodle and leashed Chihuahua were nice and they 
wanted to visit with Landon.  But they were quiet and well behaved.  When 
the crated Chihuahuas saw Landon, they started to bark up a storm!  The 
busdriver got pissed at the people with the dogs and threatened to kick them 
all off the bus.  I got off at my stop and the bus remained there and it 
never passed me as I walked home.  I wondered what happened with all those 
barking dogs after I left the bus!

Really now, those people and all those dogs should have gone down to the 
back of the bus with all those carriers.  Those Chihuahuas wouldn't have 
even seen Landon.  I thought the whole thing was funny.  The other 
passengers did, too. The only one to complain was the driver!

Linda and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

> Julie and Listers,
>    As Peter has stated, I believe it is important for us to have these 
> discussions in an effort to more fully understand and protect our rights 
> under the law. The discussion of whether or not we have the legal or 
> ethical rights to be accompanied with our dogs when they are out of 
> harness, let's consider our stays in hotels. During convention, I always 
> give my dog a day off in the middle of the convention. However, our policy 
> requires us to not leave our dog unattended in the rooms. Therefore, I 
> allow my dog to accompany me out of harness. From your perspective, would 
> this be unethical?
>    I would also like to pose another scenario. suppose I want to relieve 
> my dog. Should I be required to harness my dog to take her out if I do not 
> wish to work her?And, if while I am out, I decide to stop into the 
> restaurant to get a couple of cups of coffee to take back to my room for 
> merry and me, should I be restricted from entering into the restaurant if 
> my dog is not in harness? Does my dog pose any greater threat to those in 
> the restaurant if she is not in harness?
>    While I am at work and the dog is lying under my desk, should I be 
> required to keep my dog in harness to satisfy some ethical consideration? 
> Some schools and even more users train their dogs to guide on leash 
> without the harness.  Again, if I am at work and wish to get a drink or 
> step outside for some fresh air, should I be required to put the harness 
> on my dog?
>    I am asking these questions to be argumentative, but in a positive way, 
> like an argument between debaters. What each of us does in this respect is 
> our own business. What we consider "ethical" is only conformance to the 
> unenforceable!This discussion will help clarify this issue for all of us. 
> It can also demonstrate that we can have differing opinions without being 
> disrespectful.
>
> fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
>
>> Cindy,
>>
>> Marion is correct, legally no harness is required to gain public access. 
>> It is the training that makes a service dog, not the equipment.
>>
>> The ADA doesn't distinguish the different types of service dogs...service 
>> dogs for people in wheelchairs, hearing alert dogs etc. The ADA defines a 
>> service animal as any specially trained animal whose trained behavior 
>> mitigates the disability of it's handler.  A guide dog is one type of 
>> service animal as defined in the ADA.
>>
>> A hearing alert dog doesn't need any sort of special equipment to do it's 
>> job.    The equipment needs of different types of service dogs  vary 
>> quite a bit and even with the same type of service dog the equipment 
>> still varies with the specific needs of the handler.
>>
>> All that said, I still have ethical issues with taking a guide dog into 
>> public places with no harness and not using the dog as a guide.
>>
>> JMHO
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>>
>>
>>>I don't see how the harness cannot be required. If what you are saying is
>>> true, then anybody can march into anywhere without a harness. You could 
>>> have
>>> a well behaved dog, or an under achieer for a service dog, and who would
>>> know the difference? I don't mean to be argumentative because you may 
>>> well
>>> know more about this than do I, but that seems like it wouldn't make 
>>> sense.
>>> No school ever told me that I had to have a harness on either; and TSE
>>> encourages taking the thing off when you are on the plane, especially 
>>> with
>>> young dogs. I leave mine on because it seems so cramped to get it back 
>>> on,
>>> specially when the flights I have are so close together.
>>>
>>> Cindy Lou
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:09 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>>>
>>>
>>> Angie,
>>>    Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline 
>>> may
>>> make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I chose to
>>> travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the airline could 
>>> not
>>> deny me access. The harness does not make a service dog; its training 
>>> does.
>>> Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have 
>>> the
>>> right of access with their dogs
>>>    Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
>>> otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to 
>>> be
>>> afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal 
>>> law
>>> requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
>>> state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra 
>>> seat
>>>
>>>
>>>> Wayne,
>>>>
>>>> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will 
>>>> consider
>>>> ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can simply remove 
>>>> the
>>>> harness handle, it will easily fit in the space between a window seat 
>>>> and
>>>> the inside wall of the plane. This will allow both the human and dog to
>>>> enjoy more room while they fly, while reducing the chances that a 
>>>> flight
>>>> attendant would seek to remove the harness from the dog's owner.
>>>>
>>>> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness 
>>>> at
>>>> all
>>>> times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with such
>>>> policies
>>>> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you agree
>>>> with
>>>> me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to someone at 
>>>> Seeing
>>>> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>>>>
>>>> Angie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Wayne Merritt
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>>
>>>> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
>>>> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
>>>> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
>>>> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
>>>> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
>>>> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
>>>> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
>>>> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
>>>> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
>>>> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
>>>> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
>>>> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>>>>
>>>> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
>>>> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
>>>> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
>>>> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
>>>> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
>>>> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
>>>> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
>>>> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
>>>> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
>>>> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
>>>> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
>>>> no dice. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Hth,
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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