[nagdu] Clicker Treats RE: dog corrections

Andrew J. LaPointe alapointe89 at comcast.net
Thu Sep 3 14:58:35 UTC 2009


could I please get a copy of the file?  Andy
alapointe89 at comcast.net

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Nicole B. Torcolini
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 9:46 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Clicker Treats RE: dog corrections


Of course, I'm just going off of what I have been told; never did my own
research.  If anyone is interested off list, I have the audio file of the
GDB clicker training instructions.  I do not know if they are still doing
it, but when I got Lexia, we were given either CD's or an MP3 player with
files on them, and we had to listen to audio files each night before the
training the next day.  Very interesting.  Also a good way of being able to
go back and check things if you forget.

Nicole

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 8:38 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Clicker Treats RE: dog corrections

Nicole,

Yeah, if another clicker user is around, the result can be interesting.  I
once gave Mitzi a click in Petco, and about three dogs sat down waiting for
treats. /lol/  I use the quieter iClick now, so that hasn't happened for
awhile.  I also don't user the clicker in Petco. /grin/

As for not following every time with the treat, that comes some very old
behavioral studies -- by Skinner, in fact -- that I read years ago, which
demonstrated that, as positive reinforcement is a stronger motivator in
learning behavior than is negative, so intermittent reinforcement given
randomly, either negative or positive, is stronger.  I sort of worked that
concept into my training back then, and I guess I just continued working
under that concept when I added the clicker as a tool.  Now I that I think
about it, though, I don't if more recent studies have confirmed or modified
that century(ish) old notion.  Guess I'd better do some homework. /grin/

So anyway, when I'm first teaching a behavior, I reward consistently until
the behavior is solid, then start to ease off.  I used the treats meanwhile
to associate with the clicker, then began to treat randomly and
intermittently when I clicked.  It seems to have worked with Mitzi, and
sometimes she would turn down an offered treat.  "No, thanks.  I don't need
that right now."  She seemed to take the offer of the treat as reward
enough.  Then again, she's a very strange critter.  I did notice Daisy
getting to that point somewhat, but we've had to retrace some lost ground
with her recently, so I'll see how it goes.  I didn't actually know other
clicker trainers follow with a treat every time until recently.  So maybe
I'm missing something.

Anyway, Mitzi likes some cheerleading, so the click alone does that for her,
and she will do her happy dance step just for a click.  I can then throw in
a treat when it's more convenient.  And I do treat liberally when I do
'competitive obedience" with both dogs, which seems to set the association
for them.  Although they're not working for the click or the treat, just to
outdo each other.  I started that exercise as a way to help the two little
monsters get along and to get them to bring their attention to me
(especially Daisy), more than to teach anything like obedience.  Oddly, it
translated into much better obedience for both dogs, which was great for
Mitzi's down and stay.  I was frankly surprised, since the whole thing has
turned into a game where it seems they're doing more to get me to give them
treats than I am rewarding them for whatever behavior I ask for.  Whatever
works, I guess.  /smile/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Nicole B. Torcolini
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:01 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] Clicker Treats RE: dog corrections

That is very interesting that you do not always use the treats with the
clicker.  AT GDB, they told us that we must use a treat every time that we
click the clicker, even if it was an accident.  We were strongly discouraged
from doing clicker training around other dogs.  I was reminded why the other
day when I was in a pet shop with a training area.  Someone was doing
clicker training with their dog, and Lexia was very interested.  Luckily, I
was not working her, as she was there for her bath.  I don't use clicker
training too much as sometimes Lexia tries too hard for it and misses the
point as she tries too hard to please in order to get the treat, but it
certainly works well for teaching new commands.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:10 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] dog corrections

Julie,
Well put.  I find the Halti -- another brand for the same thing as the
Gentle Leader -- curbs a lot of snottiness, although Mitzi has been known to
put on enough 'tude to ignore and resist it.  For the most part, it is a
good reminder to pay attention and mind her manners.  I've stopped using it
full-time, though, and seem to have an impressive knack of not having it on
my person when we go into high-stimulus situations, so I have to improvise.

Gary, since you've been asking specifically about poodles and their kin, I
will tell you that poodles do not do well with negative correction.  Jenine
can tell you more about how her school has adapted their raising and
training methods to the poodle temperament, but I have found myself making
some of the same choices with my girl.  She has considerable self-confidence
and gungho and get up and go...  In other words, I think she would be
considered a strong dog.  Very independent minded and intuitive with a
wonderfully quick intelligence to size up new situations and come to the
right conclusion.  It's wonderful, and I love it.

The flip side is that she is an absolute snot when she wants to be, even
when her excitement isn't getting the better of her.  So in the situations
Julie describes -- the dog being bad on purpose, when she knows better -- I,
too, would use a negative correction as a reminder to get back on track and
lose the 'tude.  Except that Mitzi just gets oppositional and behaves as
badly as she possibly can.  If I try to force the issue by upping the level
of negative correction, she melts down.

You do not want to find yourself standing in the middle of the sidewalk with
a melted poodle!  Even if you're just on a training walk and don't actually
have someplace to be.  /smile/

So dealing with her on distracto or high-excitement days requires a certain
amount of creativity on my part.  Having her favorite good dog treats on
hand goes a long way to ensure her cooperation.  I do use the click with
only intermittent treat followup, and she will even refuse a treat when it's
offered.  But it had better be there to be offered, and it had better be
worthy of her!  I've been using kibble, since I've been too poor for the
"real" treats, but that's not good enough.  I am trying to experiment with
something nummy that doesn't end up too sticky to put in the pocket, with
limited success.  Sometime today or tomorrow, though, we will be definitely
heading up to the feed store for a big bag of Mini's.  Daisy has become
nearly as snooty about treats as Mitzi -- if not moreso -- so the darn
things are now essential to the peace and tranquility of the household.
/grin/

Anyway, I sometimes use "obedience exercises" to get her back on track, with
heavy application of treats to start.  This sometimes works, but not always.
I've had better luck with doing circles, falling back on my horse training
days, but then it occurred to me that's a bad idea for a blind person with a
guide dog.  D'oh.  If she's overeager, just making her stop and stand or sit
when she wants to go, go helps a lot.  Embarrassing her in front of a crowd
of admirers works magic.  She hates to look bad in front of her public.
Silly dog.

The other day, when she was being guardy over her backpack, I suddenly
realized that one of my friends was holding her leash and that I was
oriented enough to just turn my back and walk away from her -- with the
coveted pack, of course.  So I spoke in an angry tone, and just left in a
huff, then dug around in the pack with my back to her.  This caused her some
anxiety, and she was pretty restless when we moved on and then when we sat
down to eat.  But she did mind her manners with the other dog.  It took her
awhile to settle down to a steady pace even in the heat on the trails, but
her work was good and I loved just chugging along through the woods.

So on the way back, I got a little tired and sloppy and managed to turn my
ankle just a bit on the edge of the path...  So I said a bad word, not even
to Mitzi, just a response to the twinge, and she melted down.  That hasn't
happened in forever.  So there we were while our friends went cheerfully
(and wearily and hotly) on.  While I jollied Mitzi up and offered her some
pocket kibble, which she took out of principle, and then we were ready to
get going again -- only she was still anxious and over-eager to please, so
when I said, "Let's catch up," she wanted to cut across country to avoid the
bend in the trail, with me and my ouchy ankle in tow.  It took us a bit to
get back in sync, but then we went smoothly again the rest of the way.

She also picks up my mood like you wouldn't believe.  So we haven't done bus
and train and crowds for awhile, so I was feeling a bit unsettled, having to
repeatedly remind myself to trust my dog and just go with her because she
knows what she's doing.  I did discover from the excursion that I am healthy
enough now to do some downtown solos without losing a day or two to recover.
Yay!  We definitely do need the practice -- me, more than her.

I don't know if any of that is helpful, but it does demonstrate some things
about the poodle temperament.  Why do I put up with such a temperamental
little brat, you may wonder.  Actually, I did as I was writing it.  /lol/
The need for serious correction is really rare and getting rarer as she
continues into adulthood.  She is, in fact, utterly fantastic and I adore
her.  When she's not a pain the, well, you know!

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 6:08 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] dog corrections

Gary,

First I need to tell you that I do use clicker training with my dogs, but I
am not exclusively using clicker methods. I will use a punitive correction
if the behavior warrants it.  Clicker training in it's purest form does not
use punitive "corrections".  Misbehavior is handled through various
means...teaching an incompatible behavior, ignoring the incorrect behavior
or reinforcing the correct behavior...there are probably others I am
forgetting.  I am by no means an expert on clicker methods.

Also I owner train my dogs.  I do what I do because it works for me.  I make

no assertions that my methods will work for anyone else.

I teach new behaviors using clicker training.  I work on those behaviors
using positive reinforcement until the dog shows proficiency.  If the dog
has been doing a behavior correctly for some time and then chooses to goof
off I will use a collar correction.  Right now Monty is wearing a martingale

collar.  Three quarters of the collar is nylon webbing, with the top portion

being a loop of chain.  The leash attaches to this loop of chain and when
you pull the leash it tightens the collar.  It is a pretty mild collar
correction as things go.  I also use a Gentle Leader collar in some
situations.

I try my very best to teach a new behavior with enough variations, in enough

different settings, with enough different distractions that the dog is truly

fluent in the behavior.  I don't correct for mistakes where I feel that the
dog hasn't truly mastered the skill yet.  But once he has demonstrated that
he can carry out a particular behavior in a variety of situations I follow
the following checklist for "corrections".
*Has he truly mastered this skill? If no I practice teaching the behavior
with the clicker.
*Verbal reminder of what I want example of giving a "forward" command.  I
think most of the schools would use "hup up" or something similar.
*Verbal correction like no or leave it.
*Stop and refocus-sometimes he just needs to look at something for a bit so
he can understand what it is other times we need to do some obedience
exercises.
*Collar correction.
*Leave the situation.  Sometimes the best thing is to just plain not go
there.  There is a particular dog  that is related to Cujo that lives about
two blocks from my house.  This dog is absolutely insane, running back and
forth at the fence, barking, growling, lunging...The fence borders the
sidewalk.  I never walk on that side of the street. It's just asking for
problems.

And of course I do not always use the above list in that particular order.
It depends on what is going on, how  off track Monty is and how clearly I am

thinking. I'd also like to add that Monty is an extremely confident and bold
dog.  Many people refer to dog personalities as being soft or hard...Monty
is a pretty hard dog.

HTH
Julie



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