[nagdu] "service dog" or not.

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Sun Sep 13 19:31:21 UTC 2009


Nicole,

Last time Mitzi tried that one on, she tangled with a yellow jacket that got
a nice good hold on her curls and just went to town on her.  Poor girl!  I
had to grab her finally and brush it off, then freeze while it buzzed
angrily around my head.  But apparently Mitzi is now willing to consider the
notion that all that nagging I do is not just because I'm a big killjoy out
to ruin her fun. /grin/  Then again, she's pretty good with the off leash
obedience for awhile, then totally backslides and develops selective
hearing.  Then again, the offleash training paid off again when I dropped
her in a light rail station.  I hadn't been to that one before, and it's
underground and filled with echoes, so I was still sort of getting oriented
when I realized I had no leash or harness in my hand.  Scared me to death,
but Mitzi came right to me and we got going again in good order.  Whew!

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Nicole B. Torcolini
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 5:56 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.

Yes...Not at the beach, but another time, I have experienced that
"I'm-having-too-much-fun, won't-listen" thing. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Linda Gwizdak
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 11:27 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.

Hi Mike and Marion,
When I used to bring my dogs to the Coronado Dog Beach, my guide dog used to
run free and play just as the pet dogs did.  They did have a rule about
picking up after your dog so I would go with a sighted friend so I could
comply with the rules - and know where and what my dog was doing.

There was only this one place on Coronado Beach where the dogs were alowed
to run off leash.  there was a place dug out with water in it that served as
the boundary line between the Dog Beach and the regular beach.  On the
regular beach, dogs weren't allowed. Now, I was allowed to walk on this
beach with my dog but I had the dog on leash and I carried my harness since
my dog was still all sandy and wet.  A beach patrol guy did stop me and
asked if it was a service animal and I said yes and then he saw the harness
on my shoulder.  He just said, "Okay" and we all went our merry ways.

I do think we are subject to the same rules as any other person when we are
at dog beaches or dog parks.  When we are at places that prohibit dogs, then
we need to have our dogs under control just as we do anywhere else in the
public arena.  We have no business letting our dogs run free on beaches
where pet dogs are not welcome.

We still have access with our guide dogs and people have the beach without a
dog kicking up sand all over them.  Here, if people want to watch dogs play
free on the beach, they go to the Dog Beach and they don't mind sand being
kicked up by the dogs.

Landon and I don't go to Dog Beach or dog parks because he is too busy
having fun off leash and fails to come when called.  And, I don't like the
sunburn I get when there!  Landon gets to play leash-free in a small fenced
area with the other guide dogs once a month with our Paws That Heal program
with the wounded warriors. He does fine there.

Linda and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.


> Mike,
>    Let me take a non-legal stab at your questions. If I use my guide dog 
> to access the services of a public accomodation, such as a beach and, 
> while I am there allow my dog to run free, asuming this is not prohibited,

> I see no reason why i should be subjected to the requirements of a pet 
> tag. I am of the opinion that the pet tags are required for access to the 
> beach where such access would normally be restricted by these dogs. My dog

> is not restricted from such access, so no requirements can be imposed to 
> gain such access. If, on the other hand, no dog is allowed to run free, I 
> cannot use my dogs status as a service animal to gain special treatment.
>    As for the question of whether or not I might have any recourse under 
> state laws that protect service animals from attack by people or other 
> animals when I go to a pet park, this question would depend upon whether 
> the laws are criminal or not. To the best of my knowledge, states in which

> such laws have been passed are criminal laws. as such, in order to bring 
> charges under these laws, one of the elements that would need to be proven

> is whether there was criminal intent. The dog that attacks cannot have 
> criminal intent, for such intent requires that the person/animal knows 
> that the animal is a service animal and intended to cause harm.
>    As for your question about the service snake, as wild animals, snakes 
> cannot be "trained" only "tamed". therefore, there will never be such a 
> thing as a service snake, lizard, or any other wild animal. Likewise, an 
> animal that only "alerts" someone to the possible onset of a seizure is 
> not a service animal, as such an ability is innate, not trained. If, 
> however, the animal is trained to perform some specific tasks, such as 
> clearing an area around the person, placing a pillow under the head, 
> activating a medical alert signal, etc., then the animal is a service 
> animal under the ADA. Similarly, if someone has trained their dog to 
> retrieve dropped items and this person, under the definition of the ADA, 
> is a qualified person with a disability, such a person has the right to be

> accompanied by such a service animal. It is important to note that the 
> burden of proof that a person is a "qualified person with a disability" 
> rests upon the person claiming protection under the ADA.
>    As you stated, I would like to hear from one of our legal experts on 
> these questions! I am always interested in furthering my understanding of 
> the law in an effort to better assist  those who come to me for 
> assistance.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:31 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would love to hear from Craig Bourne or some legal expert speak to this
> topic.  I think Marion may be sort of technically correct, but training
> alone cannot make a "service dog" a "service dog".
>
> For example, given the discussion of a few weeks ago if I allow my guide 
> dog
> to run uncontrolled on a beach can I invoke the fact that it is a "service
> dog" if an official suddenly demands that I pay a fee for the dog to be on
> the beach.  I think I as a blind guide dog user would have a difficult 
> time
> getting out of paying such a fee since the dog is no longer under my 
> direct
> control and it is not being used as a "service dog".
>
> Or try this one.  If I take my guide to a dog park where I let her run 
> free
> and she is attacked by other dogs in the part can I invoke a dog attack 
> law
> which provides for penalties concerning attacking a "service animal"?  I
> think anyone attempting to do such would have a very difficult time
> collecting for damages.
>
> Finally, this whole discussion bring to the forefront the entire issue of
> support animals.  "Oh, my snake has learned to warn me of seizures", or 
> "of
> course this is a service animal which has been trained to help me pick up
> items as I cannot bend over to do that for myself".
>
> Having a harness does not in of itself make a dog a "service dog". 
> Likewise
> just because we say a dog is trained or even if it has been trained by a
> school it is not a service dog unless we use it as such.  We live in a 
> world
> where we need to think realisticly.  I think that if case law develops
> addressing these issues we will find that training alone may not be enough
> in certain situations.  I don't like that as training should be enough so
> long as I am using my dog appropriately.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Mike Hingson
>
> The Michael Hingson Group
> "Speaking with Vision"
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:09 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
> Angie,
>    Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline may
> make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I chose to
> travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the airline could 
> not
>
> deny me access. The harness does not make a service dog; its training 
> does.
> Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have the
> right of access with their dogs
>    Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
> otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to be
> afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal 
> law
> requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
> state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra 
> seat
>
>
>> Wayne,
>>
>> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will consider
>> ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can simply remove 
>> the
>> harness handle, it will easily fit in the space between a window seat and
>> the inside wall of the plane. This will allow both the human and dog to
>> enjoy more room while they fly, while reducing the chances that a flight
>> attendant would seek to remove the harness from the dog's owner.
>>
>> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness at
>> all
>> times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with such
>> policies
>> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>>
>> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you agree
>> with
>> me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to someone at 
>> Seeing
>> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Wayne Merritt
>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
>> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
>> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
>> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
>> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
>> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
>> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
>> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
>> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
>> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
>> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
>> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>>
>> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
>> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
>> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
>> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
>> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
>> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
>> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
>> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
>> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
>> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
>> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
>> no dice. Thoughts?
>>
>> Hth,
>> Wayne
>>
>>
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