[nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog

Ann Edie annedie at nycap.rr.com
Tue Apr 6 20:36:12 UTC 2010


Hi, Mark, Albert, Tami, and All,

As a teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired, I can tell you 
that it is a constant struggle to win Braille instruction and effective cane 
travel instruction for our visually impaired children in preschool and 
school programs.  Even though the law says that braille will be taught 
unless all members of the team, based on the results of a functional vision 
assessment and learning media assessment, agree that braille instruction is 
not appropriate for a particular child, still we have to justify, beg, 
insist, and cajole, and sometimes go to hearings and court, just to get the 
instruction that the law mandates.

And, what's worse, it is sometimes other TVIs and O&M professionals who are 
telling the school districts and our students themselves that the kids are 
really not blind and don't need these alternative techniques; they just need 
to learn to use magnification and telescopes and CCTVs, etc.  Usually this 
is because those TVIs want the student hours, but they don't know braille or 
how to teach braille, they don't want to learn the technology so that they 
can teach it to the students, and they don't want to take the time it takes 
to produce information in braille and tactual format for the students.  It 
is much easier to say that the student can get by using magnification and 
enlarged print, and get an aide to produce the large print on the copier. 
Then they wonder why the student refuses to do reading and writing 
assignments, doesn't do his homework, and begins to hate school and think of 
him/herself as a non-reader.

It's discouraging sometimes, for a teacher who really does try to get the 
instruction and time that the students need to master the alternative 
techniques which empower them to participate fully and flourish in the 
school and adult community.  But it is also very rewarding to see a student 
take off and fly using the skills we have provided them.  As Mark's story 
demonstrates, the most important thing is to educate the parents about the 
benefits of blindness skills and the need for them to be strong and 
relentless advocates for their children to receive instruction in these 
skills.

Best,
Ann

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog


> Mark,
>
> Great!  I am so glad you have had those options and that your parents were
> able to fight to provide them for you when they needed to!  I have another
> young friend who has had those same oppportunities and is continuing to 
> use
> them very well in her adult life.  It is *so* great to see!
>
> And you are absolutely right about the fire drill!  It should not require 
> an
> attorney and law suits to make the state do what you are paying taxes for 
> it
> to do!  It is not in the state's best fiscal interest to go out of their 
> to
> avoid spending money on the next generation of working, contributing
> taxpayers, either!  It ain't charity, folks!  Often, the problems blind
> students face is reflected across the range of disability groups and other
> special needs kids....  The future lost revenue alone when those kids grow
> up to be dependent upon the social security and other social safety net
> systems instead of contributing to them is way more than would be spent 
> per
> student, even if you factor in the ratio of future successes to
> non-successes (if I may say it that way, even though I'm not sure that's a
> word).  Same with VR for adults with disabilities...  Not all will use 
> those
> services to move into the big money -- and therefore big payer -- end of 
> the
> workforce; some may never be able to work at all for one reason or 
> another.
> But the system will still pay for itself, at least, if it spends the money
> to get people paying back.
>
> Then there are those of us who were taxpayers and contributors to social
> security and involved in community service and all that kinda stuff for 20
> or 30 years before we needed to call upon the social safety net
> ourselves....  One -- this one, at least -- gets a bad attitude real, real
> fast when some obstructionist state agency treats her like an ungrateful
> beggar when she asks for information and adaptive tech to keep her job and
> career....
>
> By now, BTW, I have been paid more in SSD payments than the cost of the
> adaptive tech I began requesting 10 ;years ago so that I wouldn't have to 
> go
> on SSD...  Yet last time I asked just in case something had changed, I got
> the whole shock and guilt trip (attempted) about how much I was asking 
> them
> to give me...
>
> So we soldier on in all areas, providing what we can for ourselves, and
> trying to improve the system collectively and individually, and I am
> sounding just annoyingly preachy, aren't I?  /lol/
>
> Mark, stories like yours are encouraging as they are discouraging, since
> your education so far has required so much struggle just to be allowed to
> take advantage of what your parents and all of us have already paid 
> for....
> Your obvious exceptional literacy and intelligence and knowledge show that
> you are one of that "next generation" to make real strides for the one 
> after
> you simplyl by using the tools you've been given to demonstrate that your
> education was simply something society "gave" you to make you feel better.
> It's something you will have full opportunity to pay back in for the next
> batch of kids, just as fully as the students who don't have to fight for
> their educations.
>
> Off soapbox now...  /grin/
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Mark J. Cadigan
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 6:21 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog
>
> I have been lucky in that my parents were able to get me the required
> training and adaptations and whatnot in school. If they couldn't get the
> school system to pay for it, they would pay for it out of pocket. I know
> that not everyone is in a situation to do this, but for me, it has worked
> out grate! My parents are able to get the school system to do most
> everything, because when they refuse, if my parents have any sort of law 
> or
> precedent on there side, there attorney will badger the school and the
> department of education into submission.
>
> We should not have to go threw this Chinese fire drill any time we want to
> accomplish anything. The school should stop pinching pennies and do it
> correct the first time.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 8:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog
>
>
>> You do not even want to hear the terrible ordeal one family has been 
>> going
>> thru for a year to get their daughter cane training for her in school.
>> They just today announced she will be getting  60-120 minutes a week.
>> Unbelievable
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 6:30 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog
>>
>> Yeah, from what I hear, too many parents have to work really hard for
>> their
>> little blind kids to use canes!  I had no idea!  Don't know how many 
>> still
>> have to fight the school systems or even the legislature to have laws to
>> use
>> to fight the school system these days, but apparently there's a way to go
>> there.  Probably depends a lot still on where you live.
>>
>> To me it seems to nonsensical to deprive children of canes, since their
>> brains are developing still and doing it so quickly that the tool
>> obviously
>> becomes second nature to them.  /smile/  I still have to really
>> concentrate,
>> if not as much as I used to, to walk around a crowded convention hall or
>> dining room with my cane and stay oriented.  While a group of little 
>> kids,
>> one or two with canes, all of them laughing and shrieking, will whiz 
>> right
>> on by, around the adults and their canes and the dogs and purses on the
>> floor and you name it that I just spent five minutes walking 10 feet 
>> past,
>> without touching a hair of anyone or anything.  Born total, but baby, she
>> was born to run!  Love it!
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Albert J Rizzi
>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 1:20 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog
>>
>> You have never been on the parents division chat line, many are precluded
>> from using canes  while in school and it disturbs me. the nfb is one 
>> place
>> in the blind movement where that is an option for kids. Not enough
>> mobility
>> instructors or TVI's think that way, at least that is what I hear when
>> listening to parents. Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of cheryl echevarria
>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 3:57 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog
>>
>> Albert you have never been to a convention, there are tons of blind kids
>> using canes.
>>
>> Cheryl Echevarria
>> Independent Travel Consultant
>> http://Echevarriatravel.com
>> 1-866-580-5574
>>
>> http://blog.echevarriatravel.com
>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>> CST-1018299-10
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 4:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog
>>
>>
>>> Why is it a requirement for being considered getting a guide dog anyway?
>>> I
>>> would like to understand the rationale. I am not agreeing or disagreeing
>>> just wondering about the reasons. Then too, if cane mobility is so
>>> integral
>>> to independence, why are there some schools of thought on not 
>>> introducing
>>> the cane to toddlers or blind youth as soon as they can hold one?
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Tracy Carcione
>>> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 2:33 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] cane skills as prerequisite for guide dog
>>>
>>> Marion, I don't necessarily agree that good cane skills should be a
>>> prerequisite for getting a guide dog.  It's a nice theory.  It would
>>> certainly be helpful.  But I know too many people who don't have
>>> spectacular cane skills, but do great with a dog.  Some of them are 
>>> older
>>> people, who started getting dogs when cane training was not very
>>> available.  Some of them are from places where services for blind people
>>> are not very good.  Some of them went blind as senior citizens, and 
>>> quite
>>> a few agencies don't serve that population very well, since they won't 
>>> be
>>> employed.  Should we tell these people they have to wait until they can
>>> somehow get cane training?  I don't think so. I've met enough people for
>>> whom the dog was the thing that got them back out, living their lives,
>>> and
>>> I think getting out and living one's life is a great thing. I'm not
>>> willing to stand in someone's way over whether or not their cane skills
>>> measure up to some philosophical mark.
>>>
>>> Should we take good orientation as good enough?  Or should the guide dog
>>> schools offer cane training to prospective applicants who they feel
>>> should
>>> have it? They seem like reasonable approaches to me, and I believe they
>>> are
>>> the ones being carried out. Encouraging good cane skills is fine, but I
>>> wouldn't make it a prerequisite for a guide dog.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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