[nagdu] length of training

Sun Apr 11 06:32:23 UTC 2010

Meghan,

I think I remember you talking about owner training.  I am sorry your
terrier didn't accept your dog.  Finding the right dog and giving
owner-training a go to see what happens is a really good approach.  If the
experiement works, you have a guide dog.  If not, you have a great dog and
you have learned something.  /smile/

I started out that way with Mitzi, and it made the process a lot more fun
since I wasn't all goal-oriented and uptight about the outcome.  Until I
finally decided it was time to order a real guide dog harness and move on to
the real guide dog phase.  Then I really had to rein myself in not to pass
my sudden change of attitude on to my young dog.  Did a whole lot of talking
to myself to keep from suddenly wanting the poor kid to be all the time
perfect at everything.  Knowing that I would ruin her if I let myself get
out of hand was pretty motivating, though.  /smile/

As you say, maybe another time.  Meanwhile, you have Kirby and you have
options, which is the important thing.

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Meghan
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 2:25 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] length of training

I have considered owner training if I am in the right place at the right 
time with the right dog.  I met the right dog last November, I adopted him, 
and one of my other dogs wouldn't accept him.  I was going to train him, 
just see if I could do it well or not, and maybe work him on walks and 
things, take him now and then and let him take the slack in a few years when

Kirby starts to get older, but, alas, my one little terrier wouldn't accept 
him, so my little potential test never happened.  It never made it past 
theory.  I adopted him because he was a wonderful dog, got him home and 
thought he could probably handle guide work.

Ah well, maybe later, maybe some other dog.

That would be wonderful.

Meghan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "doug weil" <doug.weil at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] length of training

Never heard of the Helper Dog USA; it is a nice idea though. There is a Dog 
Training Acadamey in the midwest that advertises it will make you a 
certified guide dog trainer in one year. I met a lady who went there, spent 
$14,000. for training. Had to provide her own dog to train. I met her when 
she was advertising her fully trained guide dog for sale for $10,000. I met 
the lady and saw the dog and was not impressed, I watched her work the dog 
and was less impressed and when I asked her to wear a blindfold and she did,

they could'nt get to the end of the block. She received no training with 
blind students and admitted she had only met one blind person in her life. 
She also said the owner of this school had never trained a guide dog 
himself, but he was an excellant trainer who could teach anything. Scary to 
think what is out there trying to sell you a dog with no knowledge of what 
their doing!! BUT she did have her piece of paper that said she graduated
 from this school with high honors!!

I like your retreat idea, let me know when & where and I'll show up!!

Doug

________________________________
From: Julie J <julielj at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 12:51:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] length of training

Doug,

I don't have any problem talking about my experiences with the dog provider 
company. I think most everyone who has been on this list for a while knows 
anyway. If not I'm sure some digging in the archives would find it.

It was called Helper Dog USA. They are apparently out of business now or at 
least I cannot find any trace of them. They got dogs from law enforcement 
training programs who were not suited for police type work. Anyway the dogs 
were supposed to have all basic obedience, be well socialized, picked for 
their work ethic, have some advanced training, be healthy and ready for the 
advanced guide training. It was a nice concept that I still really like. In 
the end I got no dog, no refund and a giant headache.

Yes, I contacted a lawyer, the Better Business Bureau and the State Attorney

General or other appropriate office. In the end nothing did any good. I 
could have continued to pursue it, but the expense of hiring a lawyer and 
most likely a private investigator would have exceeded what I could afford. 
The probability of being refunded the original cost plus expenses was too 
risky for me to take.

Julie

----- Original Message ----- From: "doug weil" <doug.weil at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] length of training

Julie,
Thanks for your ideas; I've been wanting to pick your brain for sometime 
now.

I've thought about the niche you mentioned and I agree, it would be nice and

your probably dreaming about the perfect world! <smile> That's the guts of 
the whole program, the guide training is the easy part. Finding that perfect

dog with all the qualities needed to make a guide dog is why they started 
schools and breeding their own dogs. I'd be interested to find out what 
company you went through that went out of business; you can email me off 
list if you want.

I like your phone training support idea; I don't want to be an 
over-the-phone dog trainer, but I can certainly give suggestions and some 
different options. No book on step by step dog training; every dog is 
different and every person is different; you can't generalize guide dog 
training. GDB has their training phases listed on their website and it would

be as close to a step by step program as you can get. It's broken down very 
simply and systematically. Check it out.

I would be able to travel to an owner-trainers home to assist but that will 
create expenses. I can work pretty cheap, but I can't work for free. If 
owner-trainers could secure a sponsor to cover expenses, costs, etc. 
Depending upon travel distance and length of stay, I'd guess you'd have to 
raise about 5 thousand. (airfare, hotel, food, vehicle and losts of beer) 
That's still a pretty cheap investment. I think a Sponsor would be better 
than looking for donations. Local Lions Clubs, Banks, have all sponsored 
dogs before. You do the PR with a picture in the paper and everybody wins!

I've thrown out the idea of privately training a guide dog and then looking 
for a placement. My wife & I have 2 dogs of our own and have no room to keep

another dog where I'm at. Then there's the expense involved and a lenghty 
time commitment. Once you start, you can't stop till your done. Anyway, 
thanks for your input and ideas. If you want to chat, email me off list and 
I'll give you my cell#. I love talking dogs & training and may want to pick 
your brain some more!

Doug
Still Retired, unemployed & darn near homeless!

________________________________
From: Julie J <julielj at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 7:25:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] length of training

Doug,

Thanks for sharing your perspective on the length of training.

As for owner trainers and a niche...I do have an idea. It would be such a 
relief to start with a dog that has all basic training, is vet checked, has 
the necessary temperament, a personality that compliments the handler and is

ready to start in on guide training. I went through a company that offered 
this before I got Monty. Unfortunately they were horrible to work with, 
didn't find a dog for me, didn't refund my money as stated in the contract 
and mysteriously went out of business. So ummm, yeah that wasn't really what

I had in mind.

So ummm...a reputable place to get a dog ready to be trained in guide work 
or really any type of advanced skills would be excellent. It would also be 
nice to have phone training support. A book of some sort on a step-by-step 
manual on how to train specific tasks would be helpful. I'm thinking 
something similar to the Top Dog books available for mobility types of 
disabilities.

If you could find donors to support some of the costs, being able to travel 
to an owner trainer and work with them in person would be ideal. I know 
there were a few times during Monty's training that I could have really used

someone else's opinion or assistance. Distractions and traffic come to mind.

But there is no way that most people could afford a trainer to come to their

home for a consultation, donors would be essential.

I've tossed out the idea of having a sort of retreat/convention/whatever for

owner trainers. Something where we could travel to some centralized location

for a long weekend. There would be seminars on all sorts of topics, 
nutrition, self advocacy, training, choosing a dog and all sorts of fun 
things to do. Again cost is prohibitive, but I still daydream. *smile*

And then there is the option of privately training guide dogs.

I'd be very interested in whatever you come up with.
Julie

----- Original Message ----- From: "doug weil" <doug.weil at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] length of training

Thanks Tami. What is facinating to me is the number of owner-trainers out 
there. I've been thinking about finding a niche whereas I could be of help 
to owner-trainers either with starting or finishing guide dogs and the 
proofing & traffic training. I'm not tooooo old and I am physically fit to 
keep training. I miss not having a guide dog to train right now. Lucas 
Franck told me its in my blood and I'll never get rid of it! So I'm looking 
for an avenue to keep my hands in it without it becoming a full time job. 
Any suggestions as to what owner-trainers need or want to help them out with

training their dog??

I like your thought process of changing to a career trainer; it's adicting 
and I've enjoyed training for 30 years, not just guide dogs, but police 
dogs, search & rescue, etc. Dog Behavior is fascinating and 
changing/controlling it is an art and some people have a natural gift or 
ability while others must learn and can learn the process.

So enlighten me on some owner-training secrets; I love reading what you & 
Julie have to say and I can tell by what you write that you are Trainers not

just users. /smile/

Doug,
Retired, unemployed and darn near homeless!

________________________________
From: Tamara Smith-Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 3:38:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] length of training

Doug,

Good to hear from you! That is great information, too. When I was first
considering going forward with owner-training, I gathered as much
information about the professional training programs as I could so that I
could have a pretty good idea of what to expect with my dog. A couple of
the schools did have pretty good information of the "so you want to be a
guide dog trainer" type. Really fascinating, and it gave me some good
insight into how the professionals go about managing many of the facets of
training batches of pups and still turning out a good percentage of
successes.

Your description is much fuller, and it's more enlightening for me to hear
after training my 1 guide dog for me. /smile/ I still like to toy with the
idea of career changing to professional dog trainer, or horse trainer or
whatever trainer, because I do like training. Even when I was young and
dumb and energetic, though, I never took the notion farther than that. I
like training my own critter for me, and maybe sometimes working more than
one horse in a string. But taking it to the next level is something I've
never been sure I would really want to do. So, training remains an
avocation for me, so it stays fun. /smile/

I do like hearing from the pros, though. /smile/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of doug weil
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 11:02 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] length of training

Hi Julie,
I'll jump in on this one as I have worked for several guide dog
organizations and know alot of instructors from all the schools. I'm a
semi-retired GD Instructor and have no affiliations with any school right
now. I've been lurking on this list for several years and do learn alot from
all that post their ideas/problems/concerns. I like hearing what you all
have to say and it gives me more insight into training guide dogs.

As far as length of training time, I think Tracy hit it on the head with 4-5
months. Most reputable, good schools should have dogs ready in about 4
months. Back in the day when I started, we had 2 trainers per team and had
25 to 30 dogs to get ready in 4 months. Each trainer had about 12-15 dogs
and you could train 7 per day. That means each dog got out about 2 or 3
times per week for training. As training progressed and you lost dogs; they
got out more often. At the end of training the average # of workouts was
about 25-30 and the dogs had all the basic skills needed to pass final
blindfold testing. Now adays, I know most schools have more trainers &
resources. I know GDB has 4 trainers and a supervisor per string and each
trainer has 3 or 4 dogs to train, meaning they get out everyday and some
twice a day. That really can cut training time by months but you have a
lot more hours in the dog. The average # of training sessions per dog is now
about 80+
vs. 25 back in the day. The result being shorter training time but far more
sessions and hopefully much better working dogs going into class.

When I trained independently and only had 1 dog to train, I worked him
everyday and twice a day most days. At the end of 6 weeks he was finished
including traffic. He was an exception to the rule as he was very responsive
to training and willing to do whatever you asked. So, alot of it depends on
the type of dog
along with experience of progressing without pressuring the dog.

I know of a school that had dogs in for training average about a year before
they went out. Far to long as dogs can get kennel sour. Most schools I know
run about 4-5 months training time which is good for the dog to get placed
sooner with his blind partner and allow the dog to develop its relationship
with the partner rather than with the trainer. Hope this helps answer your
question. I'll try and contribute more in the future. Have a great day!

Doug Weil

________________________________
From: Julie J <julielj at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 5:07:29 AM
Subject: [nagdu] length of training

Hello all!
Maria Orovcíková posted on the list a bit ago about research she is doing
for her Masters degree in Slovakia? I think. I have been in contact with
her and we have run into a small problem. In her country the length of
training time is measured in months. When asked the trainers explain that
they train the dogs however much time they have each day or week.

She is using the GDUI survey for info on the American programs. GDUI has
the length of training time in hours. Maria needs to put everything into
months for comparison.

So I'm wondering if people know in weeks or months how long the guide dogs
from the various American programs are in formal guide training? I know
that typically it is 4 months, but when you look at the GDUI survey the
hours vary from a low of 15 to a high of 120 or more. That doesn't seem to
convert easily to 4 months.

Thoughts?
I'll pass along whatever anyone has to share to Maria.

Thanks much!
Julie

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